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Many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance. By purposeful ignorance, I mean that they would rather be ignorant than challenge themselves and acknowledge a truth about reality. They would rather be ignorant because they like to think they understand things, and challenging one's beliefs is difficult. It is difficult because it means admitting that any of your current views are subject to change - any of them could be incorrect.
I am going to use a story of a recent event(about an hour ago) to give an example of this. My mom has a cat, named Mocha. This cat is quite the little hunter, it has no qualms about catching, "playing with", and killing whatever it can safely get it's paws on. Actually, last night, it brought a deer mouse into the house and dropped it there - which led to me having to try to catch the mouse(and failing because the little fucker can jump like 3 feet in the air). But anyways, that's a different story.
So, I am helping my father prepare dinner, and we hear distressed shrieks at the door. The 3 of us were conversing, and my mom immediately interrupts the conversation and starts totally freaking out. She runs to the door and screams Mocha, No!. There on the doorstep lies a bird, surely dying, repeatedly shrieking in terror and surely in pain.
My mother starts saying "no, no, no", clearly distraught. My dad doesn't have much to say but it is obvious that he doesn't like the situation either. We chase the cat away, and I volunteer to move the bird somewhere to die(it used to be I would volunteer to put it out of it's misery at this point, but I have since changed my views on that).
I believe the bird was a Meadow Lark
Image for people who must have an image.
So anyways, I volunteer to move the bird. My dad says "no, you won't need to.. the cat won't come back after that traumatic event(referring to my parents screaming at it). I say "you sure....?" My father doesn't reply. So I do nothing.
2-3 minutes later there is more shrieking. Yep, the cat is back, lol. My mom just starts totally freaking out. My dad gets pissed. The cat runs away. I again volunteer to do something with the bird. My dad ignores me(I guess he has to be the man of the house). He puts the bird in a box and apparently sets it out somewhere in the woods on the ground, which seems totally retarded to me because there is nothing to stop the cat or another animal from harrassing it again. But whatever.
And so, we finish preparing dinner. My mom is obviously distressed by this and now in a bad mood, and is talking about how much it pisses her off when the cat does this.
I inform her "you know, the mice suffer just like this bird does, and she kills dozens of mice for every bird".
My mom says "yes, it's just the shrieking that bothers me".
I say "well, it's natural for an animal that is in stress to display it. I am sure the mice display it as well."
She says "yes, but I don't have to hear it. I am sorry that you don't feel sad about it."
This is a prime example of purposeful ignorance.
Now, I feel very strongly for animals who suffer, I feel compassion and empathy for all living creatures. But I also have understanding that it is temporary, and that's why I can handle watching an animal die without freaking out. Yes, i would prefer it didn't suffer. But it's only natural, it isn't the end of the world. Just like when people die, everyone overreacts. Everyone is afraid of death. It's because they are purposely ignorant. They don't challenge theirselves.
My mom has already withdrawn into denial of the situation. It's gone from her mind, she has no interest in contemplating it or trying to grow in understanding in any way. I however looked upon the bird and watched it's dying, I accepted my feelings of sadness for the bird, there is nothing wrong with that. Denying or fighting bad feelings only leads to stronger aversion - you will suffer more in the future as a result. I do not suffer from feeling bad about the animal, it isn't a big deal.
I guess I am done talking about this LOL, I kind of forgot where I was going, as always I just kind of typed what came out of my brain as I was thinking. Maybe some conversation will come of this I don't really want to have to force myself to think of more stuff to type.
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+ Show Spoiler [stream of consciousness intro] +i saw the giant blog, realized i dont have the focus to actually read it, and was about to move away.
then i saw the bird and it convinced to me read the whole thing.
and so: ignorance is a bliss man. you can't possibly expect everything in the world to go right, and since theres shitload you're better off just not knowing, why worry about it? i'd agree with your mom here (not your dad though lol) + Show Spoiler +also, if anyone reads QC, is this...?
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How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not?
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You know, I bet this blog probably offends a lot of people. But that's good, they should be offended.
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alright, i'll give you that ignorance isnt optimal for everyone. but generally people are too involved in their own lives, too mentally or emotionally weak, or too impractically empathetic to benefit from knowing all the troubles, horrors, and such that happen around them.
i'm sure that if ignorance was truly abolished, the world would be a much better place, but its highly utopian and impractical.
+ Show Spoiler [QC Webcomic] +
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That's freaky, because I woke up last night to a shrieking bird being caught by our cats. I even ran out the door in my underwear to try and save it ...
seRapH is right though, as a human you can't fathom how much suffering there is in the world. Life just wouldn't be bearable if we could. I still feel sorry for the bird even though ten thousands of animals are being killed every day to feed us. We're hypocritical and short-sighted so we can be happy with our lives, just mindlessly enjoying it till the end ... just like the bird must have done.
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i usually have 0 qualms with situations like an animal death, but i have one distinct memory of lying awake in bed listening to something out in the yard in the middle of the night (a cat?) killing another thing (a rabbit maybe? the neighbors had recently lost one..). went on for what seemed forever, death rattles can give me the chills. never found any evidence as to what killed what.
it'd be nice if people would turn to face the truth in everyday life, but in many cases it's too heavy a burden.
edit: someone mentioned that racoons gettin it on can sound like animals killing each other, so maybe it was that ;D
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great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. you should draw the line at people that don't live their lives that way.
it is a purpose-driven life, though, and not an easy one. if you ever find yourself arguing a point not to help another, but to convince yourself, then i argue you (used generally) are not living this kind of life. arguing with a person will only change your feelings, not the facts of the circumstances.
don't argue with people for your own sake. argue with them to find the truth.
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I agree animals don't deserve to suffer anymore than we do but it is the way of life. Many people are starving to death, suffer from life threatening diseases and some wish to rather be dead. Most of us often care only about our lives and our situation but sympathy and compassion is what makes us human. Personally, I can't help but feel remorse for those that are suffering whether they are human or not.
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On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance.
not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts
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The main way that this manifests for me is with meat consumption.
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On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form.
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On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form.
No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it.
(please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere)
if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm.
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Belgium6733 Posts
On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form.
well you can't logically expect that every issue can be solved by yourself
+ Show Spoiler +humanity is out of controool maaan
but I guess being aware at least instigates you to solve those 'close enough' to you?
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i dont care about mice/rats because they hide inside the house and make noise as they run through the crack. Birds are nice little fellas... sorta like clubbing seals and shooting cows. Both are animals. But one is cute, the other isnt. Sucks being bored ugly.
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If you knew the bird was going to die why didn't you kill it off instead of letting a cat toy with it or letting it sit out in the woods suffering till something else comes along and ends it?
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On July 06 2010 11:22 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: If you knew the bird was going to die why didn't you kill it off instead of letting a cat toy with it or letting it sit out in the woods suffering till something else comes along and ends it?
I had no intentions of allowing the cat to toy with it. I'd rather allow it to die in peace. I would only kill the animal myself if I knew it's suffering was to be extreme and prolonged. It isn't really my place to decide whether or not an animal's life is still worth living.
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On July 06 2010 10:26 seRapH wrote: ignorance is a bliss man. you can't possibly expect everything in the world to go right, and since theres shitload you're better off just not knowing, why worry about it? i'd agree with your mom here (not your dad though lol)
On July 06 2010 10:36 seRapH wrote: alright, i'll give you that ignorance isnt optimal for everyone. but generally people are too involved in their own lives, too mentally or emotionally weak, or too impractically empathetic to benefit from knowing all the troubles, horrors, and such that happen around them.
i'm sure that if ignorance was truly abolished, the world would be a much better place, but its highly utopian and impractical. yeah, ignorance is bliss. the simple mind is the most easily satisfied mind, because higher standards require awareness of details and consequences, and if you dont have them or ignore them then your standards will be significantly lower. these people are like animals, not like humans. they can think, but they choose not to. instead they ignore reality because it makes them feel better. that makes it useful for simple minded people, but it doesnt make it a worthwhile thing and it doesnt make it good. its like in the matrix: which one of the pills do you want? is feeling good more important than reality?
i also agree that it is a highly utopian/idealistic idea, but that is only because many humans dont care enough about anything other than feeling good about themselves and the value system they have established for themselves. it is utopian, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt strive for it, does it? i think not.
if you cant change people then at least lead by example and create your own utopian bubble, however small it might be.
i will close with two of my favourite thoughts on this.
The true value of a man is not determined by his possession, supposed or real, of Truth, but rather by his sincere exertion to get the Truth. It is not possession of the Truth, but rather the pursuit of Truth by which he extends his powers and in which his ever-growing perfectability is to be found. Possession makes one passive, indolent, and proud. If God were to hold all Truth concealed in His right hand, and in his left only the steady and diligent drive for Truth, albeit with a proviso that I would always and forever err in the process, and to offer me the choice, I would with all humility take the left hand. — Gotthold Emphraim Lessing
There is one art of which every man should be a master - the art of reflection. If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all? — Samuel Taylor Coleridge
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Instead you shuffle it to somewhere that it won't bother you? Sounds like you would rather be ignorant of its situation then resolve it. Its not deciding whether its life is worth living its doing the right thing if its gonna die its gonna die. Those couple minutes of being in pure pain isn't going to be highlight of its life. Injuries don't suddenly disappear and heal up in a matter of minutes, if the bird wasn't capable of moving it wasn't gonna suddenly jump up and fly off into a happy life.
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United States24343 Posts
I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something.
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On July 06 2010 11:26 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Instead you shuffle it to somewhere that it won't bother you? Sounds like you would rather be ignorant of its situation then resolve it.
you don't know what you're talking about. was my family not there, I would have gladly have sat with the creature until it passed. it really wasn't my choice.
Its not deciding whether its life is worth living its doing the right thing if its gonna die its gonna die.
We are all going to die, and some of us are going to have intense suffering before we die. Should we be killed now to forgo the suffering?
Those couple minutes of being in pure pain isn't going to be highlight of its life. Injuries don't suddenly disappear and heal up in a matter of minutes, if the bird wasn't capable of moving it wasn't gonna suddenly jump up and fly off into a happy life.
Did I say any such thing? Did I say I expected it to live, or even imply that? Personally, I believe in rebirth - and I believe that one can grow spiritually(even a bird) by experiencing what it experiences - including suffering. I am willing to draw a line to prevent torture, but it wasn't torture. It was just in pain and dying as so many creatures are.
And I am sure many people think my views on rebirth are ridiculous. I really don't care. Those people who would so quickly dismiss my views do so on the basis that they have already formed their own.
On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote: I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
I bet if the bird could talk and I asked it "should I kill you", it would say no. That's why I didn't kill it. I am no fool and I am extremely compassionate.
There is a reason animals fight through everything to continue to try to survive. It's natural. It's not our place to refuse their struggle and end their existences because we don't like their suffering.
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On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote: I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something. the fine line is the line between reasoning and nature. you are not involved with the animal. both the prey and the predator are acting their part. there is no reason for which we would have to shoo the cat away from its rightly deserved catch/food and put the bird out of its pain. another thing is that neither a bird nor a cat have the same level of awareness as more highly intelligent species (humans), which means that they dont have plans, thoughts, and with that not really anything to lose. if you were responsible for the suffering of the animal you might have some responsibility to reduce its suffering. it still wont lose anything by its death though.
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On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote: I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something. I've been on both sides of this one.
I was a big WW2 nut as a kid (History Channel, documentaries, books & games) and it always made me wonder how iI would feel if I was horribly wounded. Would I just want to get shot in the head? I had always assumed yes, but recently I'm much less afraid of death and would rather be left to try to stay alive. Also, I know assume it isn't my place to decide for anyone else.
As for animals, I usually just let my cat eat whatever he catches, so long as he keeps the dead animals outside.
Still, if a deer got its leg mangled or something I'd probably kill it and eat it. Probably because I see some utility in not only ending the suffering, but also making use of it.
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People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
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United States24343 Posts
On July 06 2010 11:37 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote: I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something. the fine line is the line between reasoning and nature. you are not involved with the animal. both the prey and the predator are acting their part. there is no reason for which we would have to shoo the cat away from its rightly deserved catch/food and put the bird out of its pain. another thing is that neither a bird nor a cat have the same level of awareness as more highly intelligent species (humans), which means that they dont have plans, thoughts, and with that not really anything to lose. if you were responsible for the suffering of the animal you might have some responsibility to reduce its suffering. it still wont lose anything by its death though. Yeah you can make that point. Usually when I'm around it's because an animal got run over by a golf cart or something stupid like that.
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On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic?
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On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts
that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect.
so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once.
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I remember back in college I was in a mini-seminar with some girl I had a crush on. I forget exactly why, but she started going off on this rant about how meat wasnt' just murder, but it was also torture and concentration camps, etc etc. So I asked, "So you're a vegetarian for principled reasons, not for health reasons?" And she confirmed, "Yes." Then I rejoined, "Do you feed your cats?"
The point completely missed her. "Of course I feed my cats! They're natural carnivores and don't eat vegetables. What's feeding my cats have to do with anything, dumbass?"
Quickly crossed her off my list of crushes.
Yea, people in general don't like thinking things through. This is especially true of double standards. Every Patriot is guilty of this, like, by definition. It gets annoying after a while.
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Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
i always thought in several cases that purposeful ignorance would be more efficient? Sometimes you dont have time to think about everything, and sometimes it's probably better not to, Like a businessman being purposely ignorant and feeding his family, as opposed to one who searches the for truth and loses all his money , wife , family. Or like, you see a person getting killed , and the only way to save him is to risk death yourself bad examples, but hopefully see what i mean
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On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
tbh I think he's just being consistent in how he treats things according to his view on the world.
but hold up..if something is simple, does that mean you can't be spiritual about it? Why does being simple exclude it? That sounds completely arbitrary. I don't feel its a valid thing to force onto somebody else. Sorry to interrupt the flow don't know why this stuck out to me
Anyway not killing came from a respect of the animal's will to live. Let it fight to survive as is natural, even if it hurts. Respect. I know it sounds barbarous to some people but I share the belief that pain and death aren't hideous things to be shunned and avoided just because we don't like them. They're both legitimate parts of being a living thing..let everything run its course.
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By tomorrow morning I should be again ignorant of the ideas in this blog.
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On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not?
Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness
There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on.
Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature.
These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it.
To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant.
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/Much respect + Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 10:33 travis wrote: You know, I bet this blog probably offends a lot of people. But that's good, they should be offended. On July 06 2010 11:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:22 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: If you knew the bird was going to die why didn't you kill it off instead of letting a cat toy with it or letting it sit out in the woods suffering till something else comes along and ends it? Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:47 Tadzio wrote: I remember back in college I was in a mini-seminar with some girl I had a crush on. I forget exactly why, but she started going off on this rant about how meat wasnt' just murder, but it was also torture and concentration camps, etc etc. So I asked, "So you're a vegetarian for principled reasons, not for health reasons?" And she confirmed, "Yes." Then I rejoined, "Do you feed your cats?"
The point completely missed her. "Of course I feed my cats! They're natural carnivores and don't eat vegetables. What's feeding my cats have to do with anything, dumbass?"
Quickly crossed her off my list of crushes.
Yea, people in general don't like thinking things through. This is especially true of double standards. Every Patriot is guilty of this, like, by definition. It gets annoying after a while. I had no intentions of allowing the cat to toy with it. I'd rather allow it to die in peace. I would only kill the animal myself if I knew it's suffering was to be extreme and prolonged. It isn't really my place to decide whether or not an animal's life is still worth living.
^^ Love you guys Great read as always ^^;; Curious about what you guys think about hunting (killing animals for enjoyment) There are people (who I went to school with) that purposely hit animals that cross the road, Squirrel goes to cross the road, they speed up to hit and and just laugh and drive off.. It brings me to a boil.
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On July 06 2010 11:55 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote + Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
i always thought in several cases that purposeful ignorance would be more efficient? Sometimes you dont have time to think about everything, and sometimes it's probably better not to, Like a businessman being purposely ignorant and feeding his family, as opposed to one who searches the for truth and loses all his money , wife , family. Or like, you see a person getting killed , and the only way to save him is to risk death yourself bad examples, but hopefully see what i mean There are times when not thinking about things and being purposefully ignorant in the short run is beneficial when it helps you achieve your goals. But not confronting the different aspects of life, ever, causes more pain and suffering than confronting them, in this case: pain, suffering & death.
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+ Show Spoiler +man, i posted this in the last travis blog, but after reading what must have been a totally uncharacteristic smidgeon of wisdom from him, i lose more and more respect for him with the passing blogs. saw the 5 star rating on this and was just wishing there was a -5 star option so i could cancel out at least. =[.
On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
Yeah bro. Obv theyre gonna get eaten by that tiger thats chasing both of ya like, 10 times faster.
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^^ Love you guys Great read as always ^^;; Curious about what you guys think about hunting (killing animals for enjoyment) There are people (who I went to school with) that purposely hit animals that cross the road, Squirrel goes to cross the road, they speed up to hit and and just laugh and drive off.. It brings me to a boil.
I hunt animals for enjoyment I suppose you could say, but at the same time I never shoot anything I don't intend to eat and do need the meat. I've never understood the big thrill in shooting a bear, or even going to Africa to shoot a lion to prove what..manliness? What a joke. People who swerve to hit something crossing the road piss me off and if I am in the vehicle when it happens shit hits the fan. There is no need of it, maybe it'd be nice if something preyed on people for a while and gave us a good view of how it feels .
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On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say.
i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo. also, ignorance includes not striving to get to know the truth btw, not just not knowing. nobody knows everything, but once you stop caring to find out all progress is stalled.
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I agree completely with OP and would go so far as to say that it's one of the prime problems in our society.
Don't even want to begin to think about "purposeful ignorance" when it comes to political/social/ethical issues. LOL
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On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live.
as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said.
On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to. if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic?
I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things.
On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect. so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once.
I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?"
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On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say. i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo.
You're never going to abolish all those things and all the pain and suffering in the world. Does my knowing this make me less ignorant than you?
Also being in favor of ignorance does not make me in favor of letting these things happen... geez where do you guys get your logic.
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On July 06 2010 11:55 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote + Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
i always thought in several cases that purposeful ignorance would be more efficient? Sometimes you dont have time to think about everything, and sometimes it's probably better not to, Like a businessman being purposely ignorant and feeding his family, as opposed to one who searches the for truth and loses all his money , wife , family. Or like, you see a person getting killed , and the only way to save him is to risk death yourself bad examples, but hopefully see what i mean
Ignorance is bliss but only until there is a problem that arises from it, and then it's hell because you are lost. Many people are lost. And the ignoramus may not be lost in this life but he will surely be lost in the next. of course like everyone else you probably don't believe in rebirth. But I can say this - the man who doesn't confront the prospect of death will be afraid to die, and will surely suffer should he have to face it.
Also, in your example, there is no saying which man suffers more in his life.
And this all doesn't even put into the equation how ignorance effects other beings.
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I thought we were talking about enlightenment in the Buddhist concept. What were you talking about?
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korea: that is what I was talking about. but it's not just buddhist concept. I actually thought I updated that post to explain better what it is I wanted from you but apparently it didn't update. I sounded much less like an asshole in the updated post. I just want you to answer what you think it would mean for a man to be enlightened. What has he accomplished.
in your words. you don't have to use terms like samsara, just use every day english terms.
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On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant.
I disagree with most of what you say. I would prefer to know about all of that. And btw I mean ignorance in the sense of a lack of understanding, not a lack of knowledge. Also, that isn't what being stupid is. Being stupid is lacking mental sharpness, and it certainly comes with a lack of understanding.
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On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say. i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo. also, ignorance includes not striving to get to know the truth btw, not just not knowing. nobody knows everything, but once you stop caring to find out all progress is stalled.
Enzym, I don't want to crush your utopian beliefs, but are you saying you spend every second of every day fighting: "rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery"? Because if you aren't, by you standards you'd be a bad person and a hypocrit.
I think that in order for man to be "enlightened", they have to accept that they cannot control everything around them. There is no such thing as a perfect being, but a lot of people suffer because they feel like they have to be one. Instead of trying your whole life to become something that doesn't exist, wouldn't it be better to just enjoy your life while it lasts? Wouldn't you being able to enjoy your life and doing so be a tribute to those who are suffering at the time? or would they be better served with you being miserable because they are?
Saying that people don't care when they choose not to worry about things they cannot control, is offensive and not based on truth.
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On July 06 2010 12:37 Barrin wrote:so.. how do you know what it wants?
You're right, I don't. But are you just being argumentative or do you think it actually wants to die? Because I believe that is ridiculous. Also it's amazing how many of you would judge the situation when you didn't even experience it.
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Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment. Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day. That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view. Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
EDIT: You're right we weren't there but we are able to draw conclusions from what you described. What the bird wants is irrelevant to what is going to happen.
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*shrug*
we all engage in purposeful ignorance because we're bombarded with information we don't necessarily need to live, like reading this blog
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On July 06 2010 12:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment.
High Horse attitude? You mean.. having an opinion and expressing it?
Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day.
what does that have to do with anything? Sure they learn it, and then they set it aside and never think about it.
That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view.
probably shouldn't bother with this
Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do?
and btw, are these not actions right now? debating these things? if you think they aren't, sure shows what you know. it's affecting you and everyone else who is reading it.
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On July 06 2010 12:43 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote + -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On July 06 2010 12:37 Barrin wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Show nested quote +
but this disregards that it wants to live.
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so.. how do you know what it wants? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right, I don't. But are you just being argumentative or do you think it actually wants to die? Because I believe that is ridiculous. Also it's amazing how many of you would judge the situation when you didn't even experience it.
I am bringing up a flaw in your logic, which is generally the way people become less ignorant.
the flaw was in my semantics, not my logic. instead of saying "I think it would want to live" I said something closer to "I know it wants to live".
I think it's interesting how you are quick to assume that something very similar couldn't have happened to other people. Happens every hour of every day in every country bro.
I didn't assume any such thing. What are you talking about?
That aside, I don't see how asking a question is judging at all.
I wasn't talking about you.
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On July 06 2010 12:34 travis wrote: korea: that is what I was talking about. but it's not just buddhist concept. I actually thought I updated that post to explain better what it is I wanted from you but apparently it didn't update. I sounded much less like an asshole in the updated post. I just want you to answer what you think it would mean for a man to be enlightened. What has he accomplished.
in your words. you don't have to use terms like samsara, just use every day english terms.
They are my words. I haven't read Buddhism in a very long time now but it was the first religion I studied after my original apostasy from Christianity.
but what are we talking about? Enlightenment as a transcendental spiritual consciousness or of an awareness? I don't believe in enlightenment in such a way. I wouldn't describe any of the processes or ends in my beliefs as "enlightenment". I strongly believe that all human beings are ignorant and can not be free from ignorance because of the limitations of our being. We as finite beings can not transcend our ignorance within our finite existence. As such, there can not be an enlightened man and so I can not comment on what such a man could have accomplished; as he is nonexistent.
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On July 06 2010 12:50 Barrin wrote:Oh yeah I totally meant to mention that two of my posts ago, but I had a brainfart
how is it irrelevant? do you not believe in freedom? or just not for birds?
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On July 06 2010 12:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. I disagree with most of what you say. I would prefer to know about all of that. And btw I mean ignorance in the sense of a lack of understanding, not a lack of knowledge. Also, that isn't what being stupid is. Being stupid is lacking mental sharpness, and it certainly comes with a lack of understanding.
What exactly is a lack of understanding? Like a lack of knowing how quantum mechanics works?
To follow up on the terrible things happening in the world. You may want to know about all of that, but the simple fact is that most people can't handle that kind of information. Also you say you would like to know about such things, if someone provided you with links of videos of 6 year old girls being raped, or people being lit on fire and brutally tortured would you watch them? Not only would you watch them, but would you feel better about yourself afterwards for gaining that information?
About being stupid, everyone on the planet can't be the smartest, or least stupid I should say. Just like you or I can't be 7'4" and play in the NBA. There has to be smart people out there and not as smart people out there or the world wouldn't 'go round'. You think if all the blue collar workers out there who didn't get a decent education knew how shitty they were actually being treated that they would take it? Or if all the soldiers out there knew how many families they were ruining by killing the enemy, if they knew how much pain and suffering they were going to put someone through, do you still think they would do it?
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koreasilver this thread has gotten so busy i will reply to you via pm explaining what I know enlightenment to be and then you can form an opinion on whether or not that makes sense
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No spiritual belief or doctrine can make sense though. All religious belief is fundamentally nonrational. You can't rationalize the nonrational. That is irrational.
But yeah, PM me and we'll talk about it over there.
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On July 06 2010 12:47 travis wrote: how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do?
this is precisely your issue. indeed travis, how can you take an action without being aware of exactly what you need to do, through the marginal, insignificant effects of a life "critically examined" to rectify the tragedies of a flawed world, where no one else has achieved your unique insight? your pretension to relevance is absurd.
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On July 06 2010 12:47 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment. High Horse attitude? You mean.. having an opinion and expressing it? Show nested quote + Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day.
what does that have to do with anything? Sure they learn it, and then they set it aside and never think about it. Show nested quote + That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view.
probably shouldn't bother with this Show nested quote + Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do? and btw, are these not actions right now? debating these things? if you think they aren't, sure shows what you know. it's affecting you and everyone else who is reading it.
The high horse attitude is you thinking you are some level above everyone else and think about all these deep thoughts and no one else does? I assure you everyone contemplates death many many times through out their lives and what happens afterwards. To me believing in afterlife is akin to believing in god - its just a fairytale to comfort you from the realities of life. When I said actions change things I am referring to the things like rape, murder, and all that good shit. Knowing about it doesn't change the realities of it happening , nor does having some philosophical debate on a forum about whether or not you should kill a bird. Its not what you know, its what you can do. Obviously you have to know to do..that is common sense its how you use that knowledge that makes the difference.
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On July 06 2010 12:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:50 Barrin wrote:What the bird wants is irrelevant to what is going to happen. Oh yeah I totally meant to mention that two of my posts ago, but I had a brainfart how is it irrelevant? do you not believe in freedom? or just not for birds?
What the hell does it dying have to do with freedom? If you are going to die you are going to die, it doesn't matter if you do it in a steel cage with car batteries hooked up to it a car accident the end product is the same. The outcome doesn't change. If you are referring to the freedom of choice to live, there is none. You can't will away injuries simply by wanting to live.
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On July 06 2010 12:52 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:37 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. I disagree with most of what you say. I would prefer to know about all of that. And btw I mean ignorance in the sense of a lack of understanding, not a lack of knowledge. Also, that isn't what being stupid is. Being stupid is lacking mental sharpness, and it certainly comes with a lack of understanding. What exactly is a lack of understanding? Like a lack of knowing how quantum mechanics works?
No, that would be a lack of knowledge. Knowledge is information, data. Understanding transcends that. If you know how to apply a concept, you understand it. If you can describe the concept, you have knowledge. You can read about a concept all you want but you can't apply it unless you understand it.
To follow up on the terrible things happening in the world. You may want to know about all of that, but the simple fact is that most people can't handle that kind of information. Also you say you would like to know about such things, if someone provided you with links of videos of 6 year old girls being raped, or people being lit on fire and brutally tortured would you watch them? Not only would you watch them, but would you feel better about yourself afterwards for gaining that information?
I don't need the information I just need to understand that it happens and why.
About being stupid, everyone on the planet can't be the smartest, or least stupid I should say. Just like you or I can't be 7'4" and play in the NBA. There has to be smart people out there and not as smart people out there or the world wouldn't 'go round'. You think if all the blue collar workers out there who didn't get a decent education knew how shitty they were actually being treated that they would take it? Or if all the soldiers out there knew how many families they were ruining by killing the enemy, if they knew how much pain and suffering they were going to put someone through, do you still think they would do it?
I am not sure exactly what you are saying.
I think people can improve theirselves.
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On July 06 2010 13:04 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:51 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:50 Barrin wrote:What the bird wants is irrelevant to what is going to happen. Oh yeah I totally meant to mention that two of my posts ago, but I had a brainfart how is it irrelevant? do you not believe in freedom? or just not for birds? What the hell does it dying have to do with freedom? If you are going to die you are going to die, it doesn't matter if you do it in a steel cage with car batteries hooked up to it a car accident the end product is the same. The outcome doesn't change. If you are referring to the freedom of choice to live, there is none. The outcome was predetermined will doesn't cure injuries alone.
we are all going to die. this is going in circles.
If someone has a terminal illness, and they suffer - they should be put to death even if they want to live?
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On July 06 2010 13:01 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:47 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment. High Horse attitude? You mean.. having an opinion and expressing it? Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day.
what does that have to do with anything? Sure they learn it, and then they set it aside and never think about it. That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view.
probably shouldn't bother with this Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do? and btw, are these not actions right now? debating these things? if you think they aren't, sure shows what you know. it's affecting you and everyone else who is reading it. The high horse attitude is you thinking you are some level above everyone else and think about all these deep thoughts and no one else does? I assure you everyone contemplates death many many times through out their lives and what happens afterwards. To me believing in afterlife is akin to believing in god - its just a fairytale to comfort you from the realities of life. When I said actions change things I am referring to the things like rape, murder, and all that good shit. Knowing about it doesn't change the realities of it happening , nor does having some philosophical debate on a forum about whether or not you should kill a bird. Its not what you know, its what you can do. Obviously you have to know to do..that is common sense its how you use that knowledge that makes the difference.
Pretty much exactly what I was getting at, but a bit more blunt. I didn't really want to bring religion into this blog because that would probably derail it a bit, but religion does directly create and encourage ignorance. It is in fact one of the primary 'selling points' of religion, "How does this work...?", "I don't know, God must have done it".
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On July 06 2010 13:01 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:47 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment. High Horse attitude? You mean.. having an opinion and expressing it? Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day.
what does that have to do with anything? Sure they learn it, and then they set it aside and never think about it. That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view.
probably shouldn't bother with this Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do? and btw, are these not actions right now? debating these things? if you think they aren't, sure shows what you know. it's affecting you and everyone else who is reading it. The high horse attitude is you thinking you are some level above everyone else and think about all these deep thoughts and no one else does?
I think I am more mentally clear and understanding than most people, but certainly not everyone, nor even everyone around these parts. Regardless, I treat all individuals politely and with respect. I have no interest in being fake.
I assure you everyone contemplates death many many times through out their lives and what happens afterwards. To me believing in afterlife is akin to believing in god - its just a fairytale to comfort you from the realities of life.
I don't think they actually do, not seriously. And I don't believe in "afterlife". I believe in rebirth.
When I said actions change things I am referring to the things like rape, murder, and all that good shit. Knowing about it doesn't change the realities of it happening , nor does having some philosophical debate on a forum about whether or not you should kill a bird. Its not what you know, its what you can do. Obviously you have to know to do..that is common sense its how you use that knowledge that makes the difference.
I have interest in completely figuring things out for myself, it's why I start discussions like these, knowing that I will have tons of dissidence and most likely be put down repeatedly. Once my mind is completely clear I will know the correct actions.
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On July 06 2010 13:08 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:52 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 12:37 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. I disagree with most of what you say. I would prefer to know about all of that. And btw I mean ignorance in the sense of a lack of understanding, not a lack of knowledge. Also, that isn't what being stupid is. Being stupid is lacking mental sharpness, and it certainly comes with a lack of understanding. What exactly is a lack of understanding? Like a lack of knowing how quantum mechanics works? No, that would be a lack of knowledge. Knowledge is information, data. Understanding transcends that. If you know how to apply a concept, you understand it. If you can describe the concept, you have knowledge. You can read about a concept all you want but you can't apply it unless you understand it. Show nested quote + To follow up on the terrible things happening in the world. You may want to know about all of that, but the simple fact is that most people can't handle that kind of information. Also you say you would like to know about such things, if someone provided you with links of videos of 6 year old girls being raped, or people being lit on fire and brutally tortured would you watch them? Not only would you watch them, but would you feel better about yourself afterwards for gaining that information?
I don't need the information I just need to understand that it happens and why. Show nested quote + About being stupid, everyone on the planet can't be the smartest, or least stupid I should say. Just like you or I can't be 7'4" and play in the NBA. There has to be smart people out there and not as smart people out there or the world wouldn't 'go round'. You think if all the blue collar workers out there who didn't get a decent education knew how shitty they were actually being treated that they would take it? Or if all the soldiers out there knew how many families they were ruining by killing the enemy, if they knew how much pain and suffering they were going to put someone through, do you still think they would do it?
I am not sure exactly what you are saying. I think people can improve theirselves.
Ok this is getting a bit ridiculous, I don't really know what you want out of this blog. This is getting way too deep into like the meta-analysis of ignorance and stupidity. I don't know if you're in a quest to become omniscient or something, but you're starting to tie things like religion and semantics of ignorance into this.
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On July 06 2010 13:12 Barrin wrote:This might frighten you but, you know, wanting to die isn't as "ridiculous" as you want to believe. *clear throat* "In 2006, [suicide] was the eleventh leading cause of death in the U.S., accounting for 33,300 deaths." http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml#CDC-Web-Tool <--- .gov Honestly, I don't mean for you to feel bad or anything man. I am only 21, and I had struggled with the ideas of death half my life ago (including attempting suicide)... I don't think you really understand as much about what really is "right" as you think you do. That said, nobody does. Perhaps by definition, the only people who really understand what is "right" are the people who we say knows. So essentially, we say what's right even though we don't really know ourselves. If it was cut and dry, then I guarantee you debates like these would have been obsolete a looooooong time ago.
There is no harm in taking a stance and defending it. Let me assure you I don't feel bad about anything regarding this discussion. I don't think your statistics on suicide really apply to whether or not I should kill the bird. I certainly know that a lot of people commit suicide...
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we are all going to die. this is going in circles.
If someone has a terminal illness, and they suffer - they should be put to death even if they want to live?
Thats a whole different debate to be honest, this was a bird that a cat mauled, not a person with terminal illness who wants to live. That being said depending on the level of pain and condition the person is in maybe it is better. There is a ton of variables that I am not gonna bother getting into cause like I said its a whole different ball game.
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On July 06 2010 13:17 Barrin wrote:Is this a joke...?
No. You said that you think everyone contemplates death multiple times before they die. I think that while they may think about it from time to time, most people are much too shallow for serious contemplation of any sort whatsoever. They would much rather focus on some desire or goal, and move on to the next one, and so forth and so forth.
On July 06 2010 13:19 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +I have interest in completely figuring things out for myself, it's why I start discussions like these, knowing that I will have tons of dissidence and most likely be put down repeatedly. Once my mind is completely clear I will know the correct actions. Your confidence is admirable. However, guess what comes before a fall.
I believe that's pride. And I don't mind falling, I am pretty good at getting back up.
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On July 06 2010 12:21 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live. as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said. Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to. if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic? I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things. Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect. so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once. I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?"
I don't believe in enlightenment at all. I believe we are all imperfect and, so long as we're on earth, always will be.
If you want to know more, I will go beyond that.
edit: wow at the travis-bashing. i didn't read 100% of it, but this blog is completely legitimate insofar as i've read it. if he is seeking the truth, or to further define his understanding of it, why all the veiling?
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Just out of curiosity what religion in particular are you following? Or guidelines? You remind me of a friend who was heavily into Falun Gong and had the same approach. Rebirth is a life after you die, hence it is the same thing as an afterlife - it happens after your first life. Lets not debate names and terms because the end product is the same idea.
That being said I think you would be quite surprised on how much people consider death given we are surrounded by it in every medium. Everyone at some point in their life wonders what happens once we die, most of us realize that its fruitless effort and move on but the idea is always in the back of our heads.
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On July 06 2010 13:20 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:21 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live. as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said. On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to. if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic? I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things. On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect. so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once. I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?" I don't believe in enlightenment at all. I believe we are all imperfect and, so long as we're on earth, always will be. If you want to know more, I will go beyond that.
I'd like that. Could you explain what you mean by perfect? I believe we are all imperfect as well, even enlightened people. I do not consider enlightenment to have anything to do with perfection, just with acceptance.
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On July 06 2010 13:15 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:01 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:On July 06 2010 12:47 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 12:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Seems to me you are taking a high horse attitude simply because you believe in rebirth and spiritual enlightenment. High Horse attitude? You mean.. having an opinion and expressing it? Being open to ideas doesn't make you any more bright then the guy sitting next to you who is oblivious to the world dicking around on an Iphone. I mean come on confronting the prospect of death? Everyone learns from a young age you are gonna die some day.
what does that have to do with anything? Sure they learn it, and then they set it aside and never think about it. That is the reality of it, if anything rebirth is just a silly way to avoid the reality of once you are 6 feet under there isn't coming back up for a visit. Your enlightenment sounds like nothing more then hiding yourself from facts while preaching that everyone else is ignorant for not having a similar view.
probably shouldn't bother with this Being aware of something doesn't change it, actions do and unless you are taking action you aren't helping shit.
how can you take an action without being aware of what it is you need to do? and btw, are these not actions right now? debating these things? if you think they aren't, sure shows what you know. it's affecting you and everyone else who is reading it. The high horse attitude is you thinking you are some level above everyone else and think about all these deep thoughts and no one else does? I think I am more mentally clear and understanding than most people, but certainly not everyone, nor even everyone around these parts. Regardless, I treat all individuals politely and with respect. I have no interest in being fake. Show nested quote + I assure you everyone contemplates death many many times through out their lives and what happens afterwards. To me believing in afterlife is akin to believing in god - its just a fairytale to comfort you from the realities of life.
I don't think they actually do, not seriously. And I don't believe in "afterlife". I believe in rebirth. Show nested quote + When I said actions change things I am referring to the things like rape, murder, and all that good shit. Knowing about it doesn't change the realities of it happening , nor does having some philosophical debate on a forum about whether or not you should kill a bird. Its not what you know, its what you can do. Obviously you have to know to do..that is common sense its how you use that knowledge that makes the difference.
I have interest in completely figuring things out for myself, it's why I start discussions like these, knowing that I will have tons of dissidence and most likely be put down repeatedly. Once my mind is completely clear I will know the correct actions.
Normally I hate people who derail threads with stupid comments but...
Dude, I think you've been chiefing on the pipe a little too long.
You sound like just about every other religious person, trying to get more out of life than there actually is. Also it does sound like you're riding in on your high horse and coming off as a prude.
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On July 06 2010 13:23 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: Just out of curiosity what religion in particular are you following? Or guidelines? You remind me of a friend who was heavily into Falun Gong and had the same approach. Rebirth is a life after you die, hence it is the same thing as an afterlife - it happens after your first life. Lets not debate names and terms because the end product is the same idea.
I think theravadan buddhism is great but these days I don't really feel a need for a label for what I believe
That being said I think you would be quite surprised on how much people consider death given we are surrounded by it in every medium.
I certainly could be wrong I just go by what I have seen and I know and hear about people who do not confront such issues but rather shy away from it, and then are very afraid when it comes time to die.
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On July 06 2010 13:24 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +No. You said that you think everyone contemplates death multiple times before they die. no, I didn't.
I am sorry, talking to too many people at once. it was someone else who did that.
uh... but if u didn't agree with him.. why were you replying to my reply to someone else.
I see now that this is why I became confused.
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On July 06 2010 13:29 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +I certainly could be wrong I just go by what I have seen and I know and hear about people who do not confront such issues but rather shy away from it, and then are very afraid when it comes time to die. If only this thought process didn't exist, I would be a much happier person. "Hmm, they are not expressing what they think, therefore they must not be thinking anything at all." I may never understand how creatures as intelligent as humans can actually come to such misinformed conclusions.
So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live?
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On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live.
You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation.
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I love the stuff you type, travis. Always so deep. Most people employ purposeful ignorance in their lives, or else we'd spend our whole lives helping others (which isn't a bad thing, but let's be honest, most people only care about their own well being). Whether it's changing the channel during the commercial that shows starving African children or turning away from the beggar on the street, people would rather be oblivious to the suffering of others than feel some of that pain and do something about it. But who can ignore the cries of an innocent creature? I think it gets harder and harder as more and more of your senses become involved in the situation.
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On July 06 2010 13:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live? No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live. You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation. and of which we all have different answers to.
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On July 06 2010 13:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:20 danl9rm wrote:On July 06 2010 12:21 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live. as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said. On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to. if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic? I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things. On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote: great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect. so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once. I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?" I don't believe in enlightenment at all. I believe we are all imperfect and, so long as we're on earth, always will be. If you want to know more, I will go beyond that. I'd like that. Could you explain what you mean by perfect? I believe we are all imperfect as well, even enlightened people. I do not consider enlightenment to have anything to do with perfection, just with acceptance.
Oh, I see. I did make that connection but I guess I was wrong to do so. I guess I need to read more of what you believe enlightenment is.
edit: Ok, lol, I read a lot more of your answers to some enraged members of TL not understanding your thought patterns and I must say, as afraid as I am to, we are similar.
You know how you read TL too much and you start to see those familiar posts that displease your mind, and you may even wish you hadn't read them? And then you notice how it seems to be those same few people that are posting those posts which you find yourself disagreeing with? Well, travis, you were one of those guys for me. :p To find we have so much in common now, it is disturbing, haha
edit2: So, by 'perfect,' I do mean perfect. By 'enlightenment,' well, that is a word I would only use when outside of any religious connotations or concepts. I believe no one is perfect, though we should all strive to be, and one can be, not in the physical, but spiritual, when looked upon by God himself, should they accept it - the gift.
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What do you believe enlightenment is Travis? You say acceptance but have been pretty vague on your overall view so far.
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On July 06 2010 13:39 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 13:35 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live? No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live. You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation. and of which we all have different answers to.
absolutely, I never said I wasn't being subjective
@barrin: you have no idea how prideful I am. You keep acting like you know a whole hell of a lot about me from my posts. I can understand why I come off as excessively prideful, and it is actually one of my vices. That isn't to say I wouldn't post the exact same way were I just confident, rather than prideful. In reality I am both.
Anyways, I would say to you that you are excessively presumptuous, for such a contemplative man.
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On July 06 2010 13:48 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: What do you believe enlightenment is Travis? You say acceptance but have been pretty vague on your overall view so far.
It's not an easy thing to do because if I try to explain it simply most people read the words and think of something else, because language is interpreted subjectively, especially with such an abstract concept. And If try to explain it the complicated way - it is complicated.
But I will give it a go anyways, in my own words.
The enlightened state would be the state when you accept who you are naturally. What you do and say occurs naturally, without effort. There is no suffering, because pleasure and pain are accepted as is and without judgement - they are non disturbing. There is only awareness of the present moment, right now. The awareness has no attachment to body or ego. This awareness is the basis of consciousness, but exists in unconsciousness as well.
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On July 06 2010 12:23 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say. i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo. You're never going to abolish all those things and all the pain and suffering in the world. Does my knowing this make me less ignorant than you? Also being in favor of ignorance does not make me in favor of letting these things happen... geez where do you guys get your logic. logic is consistent, having your values denote said things as bad and saying youd rather not bother knowing about them, while they are happenning in the reality you are living in (in your society, commited by people of your species, on the planet you are living on, ...) is contradictory. if you accept these things as bad that means you are in favour of avoiding them (not yourself, but in general). you can only avoid them if you know and want to know about them. its simple. what makes you not less, but more ignorant than me is that you didnt notice this inconsistency but were arrogant enough to think that your line of thought had no mistakes.
On July 06 2010 12:38 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote: How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say. i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo. also, ignorance includes not striving to get to know the truth btw, not just not knowing. nobody knows everything, but once you stop caring to find out all progress is stalled. Enzym, I don't want to crush your utopian beliefs, but are you saying you spend every second of every day fighting: "rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery"? Because if you aren't, by you standards you'd be a bad person and a hypocrit. I think that in order for man to be "enlightened", they have to accept that they cannot control everything around them. There is no such thing as a perfect being, but a lot of people suffer because they feel like they have to be one. Instead of trying your whole life to become something that doesn't exist, wouldn't it be better to just enjoy your life while it lasts? Wouldn't you being able to enjoy your life and doing so be a tribute to those who are suffering at the time? or would they be better served with you being miserable because they are? Saying that people don't care when they choose not to worry about things they cannot control, is offensive and not based on truth. thats not what im saying. i spend every second of every day being more aware of things, despising them, despising the people that dont care about these things and thereby letting them happen. all the failures of society/humanity start from the tiniest level of ignorance and built up right to which politicians get into power and all the actions they will perform. every second you dont care about something is more acceptance in society for that thing. i dont fight these things, because i cant. i am in no position of authority, dont have a big sphere of influence, have never happened across one of these things while it was being committed. but what i can do is choose were i am placing my support, which ends i want to further, affecting my close surroundings. its not about being able to create a perfect world at once. its about being consistent, not blind. now, if your values go hand in hand with those things then there is no problem.
im no hypocrite just because you didnt read the previous post right. point my towards a double standard i hold, but dont base it on an assumption. then you can call me a hypocrite. otherwise your attempt at insulting me has no base in reality.
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But how can one be aware and accept who one is naturally without affirming your own self - the self that is of your mind and body. You cannot say that you affirm of your "natural self" when you say that your awareness is not attached to your body and ego. To affirm of your own self is to affirm that you exist; you affirm of your own being as a whole, not just some metaphysical concept. That is an incomplete affirmation, and thereof you are not wholly accepting who you are "naturally"; this is not an enlightenment. This is a denial of the self.
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On July 06 2010 14:04 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +@barrin: you have no idea how prideful I am. You keep acting like you know a whole hell of a lot about me from my posts. I can understand why I come off as excessively prideful, and it is actually one of my vices. That isn't to say I wouldn't post the exact same way were I just confident, rather than prideful. In reality I am both.
Anyways, I would say to you that you are excessively presumptuous, for such a contemplative man. http://thesaurus.com/browse/pridePride- Synonyms: "..., self-confidence, ..." Please explain to m precisely what I have "presumed". Really though, in a few days when you've totally cooled off, I want you to come back to this thread. I want you to look VERY closely at exactly what I have and and EXACTLY how I worded them.
you wouldn't believe how cool I am right now, actually. cool as a cucumber. It's interesting you think im not.
btw, you should try using a dictionary for definitions, not a thesaurus. that's pretty laughable actually. shows how discerning you are.
Surely there is an argument happening in this thread. But, is it really me who you're arguing against? Clearly, I am not on your side. But, perhaps, just maybe, that's exactly why I am on your side. You see, all of my posts have been tailor-made to provoke you to ask the question: "but why?" If you are really thinking about it, you will begin to understand that this is precisely what you were after in this post. I guarantee you that the way to "enlightenment" is asking " why?". The real trick is learning how to ask the right questions, and that is where the real trick is in trying to teach someone such philosophies. + Show Spoiler +By the way, this is not "my" philosophy, as anyone familiar with historical philosophers would have already caught on to by now. I would have stopped a while ago if I did not see that you were intelligent and confident enough to understand, eventually.
thank you great master I didn't know such things before you posted them
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On July 06 2010 14:03 koreasilver wrote: But how can one be aware and accept who one is naturally without affirming your own self - the self that is of your mind and body.
by seeing that you are not actually a mind nor a body but rather a basis for consciousness, and it's through the consciousness(which you are not) that one is tricked into believing that they are a mind, body, or both.
You cannot say that you affirm of your "natural self" when you say that your awareness is not attached to your body and ego.
The body is just a material thing, the ego is a result of consciousness. The body can exist without ego and act naturally. The awareness can exist in the present moment and experience what is happening while the body acts naturally.
To affirm of your own self is to affirm that you exist; you affirm of your own being as a whole, not just some metaphysical concept. That is an incomplete affirmation, and thereof you are not wholly accepting who you are "naturally"; this is not an enlightenment. This is a denial of the self.
But you assume the body is part of you. I am saying you are not the body.
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On July 06 2010 14:12 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +you wouldn't believe how cool I am right now, actually. cool as a cucumber. It's interesting you think im not. I dont recall saying that I think you are not. Who's presuming now?
in a few days when you've totally cooled off,
im totally cooled off, don't need a few days. I don't really want to keep replying to you now, more interesting stuff going on now
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Nice read, great blog Travis. I felt like I had moments of purposeful ignorance, especially very recent to me and reading this really hit me in my mind to think and open my eyes. Sorry to hear about your story but also thanks.
5/5
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On July 06 2010 14:14 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 14:03 koreasilver wrote: But how can one be aware and accept who one is naturally without affirming your own self - the self that is of your mind and body. by seeing that you are not actually a mind nor a body but rather a basis for consciousness, and it's through the consciousness(which you are not) that one is tricked into believing that they are a mind, body, or both. Show nested quote + You cannot say that you affirm of your "natural self" when you say that your awareness is not attached to your body and ego.
The body is just a material thing, the ego is a result of consciousness. The body can exist without ego and act naturally. The awareness can exist in the present moment and experience what is happening while the body acts naturally. Show nested quote + To affirm of your own self is to affirm that you exist; you affirm of your own being as a whole, not just some metaphysical concept. That is an incomplete affirmation, and thereof you are not wholly accepting who you are "naturally"; this is not an enlightenment. This is a denial of the self.
But you assume the body is part of you. I am saying you are not the body. The mind is excruciatingly affected by the body and the opposite is also true. The very idea of this sort of Cartesian dualism is rather flawed. The mind is not separate from the body. The mind and body are one and the same. The self is all these parts as one and whole. The being is the culmination of all these. To deny that any part of your self is not your actual self is an active self-denial. To separate the mind and body also. Your consciousness does not transcend your physical being into some metaphysical plane. Your consciousness is because you exist. Your consciousness will always be coloured by what you have sensed throughout your life. To say that the consciousness transcends the body and mind is to say that primordial essence of being is characterless and that what happens in one's existence is nonconsequential to it; it neither affects or is affected - this is devoid of meaning and is an escape from the woes of existence. It is a weak affirmation as you are denying your own existence and the existence that you exist upon with no courage to actually face the absurdities of life. You cannot fight, so you surrender.
I do realize that we will never cease to argue as long as I believe that existence precedes essence and you believe the opposite.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
denial is coming to class and seeing a substitute teacher
great feeling, get to fuck around. but learn nothin
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So, you're not a vegetarian?
Anyway I think it's a stretch to call your mom purposely ignorant in that situation. More like distorted feelings of empathy toward animals to the point where it's not purposeful anymore. This conditional effect on her probably didn't lead her to realize that a mouse is even an animal; she only seemed to care about what's on the surface: the mouse being a rodent, it is filthy, dirties houses, and so on. On the other hand, the bird is peaceful, beautiful, etc. The effect of a pitying sound of a beautiful bird might receive more sympathy on the surface than the same pitying sound of a rodent.
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On July 06 2010 11:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:22 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: If you knew the bird was going to die why didn't you kill it off instead of letting a cat toy with it or letting it sit out in the woods suffering till something else comes along and ends it? I had no intentions of allowing the cat to toy with it. I'd rather allow it to die in peace. I would only kill the animal myself if I knew it's suffering was to be extreme and prolonged. It isn't really my place to decide whether or not an animal's life is still worth living.
Well if the thing's been attacked by your cat, it's pretty much as good as dead?? I regularly half to kill things that have been maimed beyond recovery by my dog. It sucks. He actually got a baby bird midair as it hopped out of its nest on the Fourth.
Last year was fun. He more or less killed a huge ass muskrat and left it for dead next to my pool. When I tried to kill it, it thrashed into my pool and it looked like jaws ughhhhh
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On July 06 2010 10:21 travis wrote: I inform her "you know, the mice suffer just like this bird does, and she kills dozens of mice for every bird".
My mom says "yes, it's just the shrieking that bothers me".
I say "well, it's natural for an animal that is in stress to display it. I am sure the mice display it as well."
She says "yes, but I don't have to hear it. I am sorry that you don't feel sad about it."
Even though I don't know you at all, I detect a tone of sterilized formality and unfeeling matter-of-factness from you in this conversation. Unless of course you said what you wrote in a very empathetic way; but when I read that I picture Spock logically explaining to your mother the intricacies of animal stress display lol.
Your mom probably picked up on that as well, which is why she thinks you don't feel sad for the bird. That, and you didn't overtly freak out about it like she did.
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Interesting question Travis, I hope you still read the replies.
I must say, I don't agree with lot's of things that's been said here, but I love to see other people's view on these things. Now to the topic: You can say your mom was purposefully ignorant in this situation, however, I actually completely agree with her reaction. I believe what you mean by saying she's purposefully ignorant is that she willingly puts away the suffering of all the mice your cat cathes to the back of her mind and don't really care about them. This is a very typical thing to do. In fact, we all do it. And if we didn't, we all would go around feeling sorry for the poor children in third world countries constantly.
This is a mechanism of the human psyche. We have the ability to repress empathy for stuff that's not staring us in the face. Or you can say, we have the ability to feel empathy for stuff that IS staring us in the face, that ability diminishes the more distant it becomes.
I have alot on the heart on this subject, like evolutionary relevance, my own views on animal suffering etc etc, but this post is getting lengthy enough as it is. Maybe I'll make my own blogpost someday. Or you could just PM me for an in-depth discussion.
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I think this blog, goes hand-in-hand with the (still haven't read, but I got an idea) "We Work Too Much" blog.
In my opinion, this and the sentiment of "We Work Too Much", while (imo) true, point to a potential issue with our generation (Generation Y).
One of the reasons why your parents fret about these thing (again with the IMO) is because they have not taken the deeper understanding and acceptance of life that you have.
This is because as we grow older, we tend to not over analysis things as often as when we are young. Cause that's A-Number1 here, you're way over-analyzing the situation. But that's okay! I do that too.
But we do it, because we have wayyyy too much 'free' time to be cognitive to these things.
Your mother is too busy/emotional to rationalize the deeper understanding of the predator/prey, nature, of the situation.
Your father is really the 'winnar' in this game. He either has dealt with the situation before and knows the best outcome, or is at least somewhat recognizing the trivial situation and gets pissed when his attempt to trivialize it are thwarted by you being correct about the cat's return and your mom freaking out again.
Heh, even now I am over analyzing the situation! Another key aspect of such bears its light; who is really correct here? Are you sure that your bias and definition are correct? What makes them so?
IMO: No use in fretting about it further, move on and know that the only thing you can pull from this is:
PEOPLE WON'T CHANGE - Nothing you can do will change the outlook, mentalities or thought abstractions of your parents or surroundings.
Great blog btw 5/5
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I don't know if anyone said this but I call "purposeful ignorance" stupidity. Good blog
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