since i'm bored in class and the professor isn't doing anything new, let's post some rumors going around.
quite funny cause KT Rolster's coach is wondering where people get all these rumors and accused them of being fiction writers. but hey, a few of them (eSTRO and CJ - hite merge) came true.
So here's some word on the street
In the case of Boxer moving to Starcraft 2, Gretech will get an contract with a game cable channel for the GSL. This rumor started around middle of september before Boxer officially announced. This is apparently in progress. Likely will be OGN.
OGN received a lot of offers for OSL sponsorship, but there's a chance it may not go through depending on the GSL. Another rumor is that the next OSL will be called GSL. But there's nothing certain here yet, and there's a chance that some of the GSL leagues may be on OGN. Commentator's Uhm's twitter is rather vague on it.
MSL is scrapped. If MBC Game cannot broadcast the Proleague, they are considering disbanding MBC Game Heroes
Coach Ha quit because of the hostile reaction from his players (the relationship isn't as smooth as people thought). Apparently there are progamers who step over their lines though~
Proleague will "force start" on the 16th or the 23rd. KeSPA's attitude towards all of this is "like we can't beat a game company in court".
If Proleague Disbands, iloveoov will become a SC2 player until he enters the military. He does practice SC2 as a fact in SKT, since coaches are allowed to play whatever they want
Reach has a high chance of moving onto SC2 after he is released from military. No confirmation on this.
Proleague has a sponsor conditioning on that they get the IP rights matter settled. Hence why KeSPA is so concerned about negotiating~
Most practice partners and B teamers have jumped ship -- they're pretty much nonexistent. Further rumors are teams that have B teamers practicing SC2 to prepare for SC2 teams, but who knows about that~
Some of the ex SKT/KT coaches are putting together a SC2 team. High probability Boxer will join this team.
Effort is currently practicing SC2. He may or may not be looking to participate in future GSL
KeSPA balance of power went from KT vs SKT to CJ vs SKT
A major corporation in Europe has offered to be a sponsor for a certain player in a certain team. The condition is that the player must move onto SC2. That gamer is a "big name", to the degree that everyone wishes "If this player switched over...". There's nothing certain and there's no name. The player in question has expressed no desire to move onto Starcraft 2 yet, but the Sponsorship amount is higher than his current salary and pretty much has the highest guaranteed salary in SC2. It is said to be one of the players who recontracted recently -- ie, could be Stork/Jaedong/Flash/Leta etc.
There is a progame team that is looking to take on a SC2 team. They are really positive towards this idea.
All hell is breaking lose in the Broodwar scene...
On October 13 2010 01:13 Senx wrote: TL about to lose the very legacy its built upon, its identity, its soul.. sad times indeed for alot of people in this community.
Or you can embrace the changes that are happening and see it as something positive as we move onto SC2, I'm kind of torn at the moment.
It doesn't seem like SC1 and SC2 will be able to co-exist very long in south korea.
As long as we have those little pictures in the top right of every post :D
On October 13 2010 01:01 Milkis wrote: [*] A major corporation in Europe has offered to be a sponsor for a certain player in a certain team. The condition is that the player must move onto SC2. That gamer is a "big name", to the degree that everyone wishes "If this player switched over...". There's nothing certain and there's no name. The player in question has expressed no desire to move onto Starcraft 2 yet, but the Sponsorship amount is higher than his current salary and pretty much has the highest guaranteed salary in SC2. It is said to be one of the players who recontracted recently -- ie, could be Stork/Jaedong/Flash/Leta etc.
The only really damaging news if true is the fact that Proleague will most likely not be able to get a sponsor if Kespa decides to take it to court. All other issues will probably resolve themselves if Kespa force starts the Proleague, in the short term at least.
Noo.. Korean bw scene Guess the hardball tactics are working very well. I hope we get a couple more proleage/starleagues still. Hopefully the infusion of professionals, stars and big sponsors will take SC2 up a couple notches.
Hmm European company... major star. Is it for sure a BW Korean player and not like WC3 or other? Gonna guess: Bisu :D Not sure how serious foreign companies are about BW to drop big bucks, so it's got to be someone with other appeal than just being good at the game. + Show Spoiler +
(Or MI:6 is going to break out Savior and give him a new identity. While Ma Jae Yoon is banned from progaming, Ma Jae Bond not.)
I don't want to start a whole other stupid blizzard kespa argument. But what really do you think is the cause of all this? Blizz? Kespa? Lack of winnings money? Bad working environment?
I knew that people could 'switch' based on prize earnings alone, but I'm at a loss as to understand why so many teams and players are switching/disappearing. Is the purse really that significant?
I am very curious about this " major corporation in europe" that is willing to give flash/jaedong/bisu/leta/sea record breaking salary. Is it a gaming team like SK/mym or even bigger corporations.
Since they say Europe then i guess we can rule out Intel. Any ideas?
I guess the practice partner/B-teamers jumping ship are to be expected though although it is happening too fast.
On October 13 2010 01:41 a176 wrote: I don't want to start a whole other stupid blizzard kespa argument. But what really do you think is the cause of all this? Blizz? Kespa? Lack of winnings money? Bad working environment?
I knew that people could 'switch' based on prize earnings alone, but I'm at a loss as to understand why so many teams and players are switching/disappearing. Is the purse really that significant?
If you're a B-teamer who's been playing for years and yet your progaming career hasn't gone anywhere, as you've never made any Proleague appearances and you never made it past the tournament qualifiers, what's keeping you in BW when there's a new game that's reputedly easier, you have a skill set that will give you a head start on most of the competition and that's where all the money is going?
With all B-teamers and practice partners leaving and no new players being recruited, it really looks like the end of the road. At this point I almost want the proscene to die right away and spare us a slow, agonizing death, because it looks irreversible.
On October 13 2010 01:01 Milkis wrote: [*] A major corporation in Europe has offered to be a sponsor for a certain player in a certain team. The condition is that the player must move onto SC2. That gamer is a "big name", to the degree that everyone wishes "If this player switched over...". There's nothing certain and there's no name. The player in question has expressed no desire to move onto Starcraft 2 yet, but the Sponsorship amount is higher than his current salary and pretty much has the highest guaranteed salary in SC2. It is said to be one of the players who recontracted recently -- ie, could be Stork/Jaedong/Flash/Leta etc.
I think it is bs.
Which "major corporation in Europe" would sponsor a Korean starcraft player ? I mean srsly ... we don't even have comp related firms. If it was Nvidia / Intel / Amd it would make sense, but Europe ? lol no way.
Also LOL @ Gretech, Kespa and Blizzard, all despicable.
Well I was expecting SC2 to kill BW, but not so fast (if these rumours turn out to be true). It's a shame to see it go but as long as it's better than what happened with CS:S and 1.6...
Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
On October 13 2010 01:51 mustaju wrote: It's been a bad day in my personal life. I come back from university after a long, frustrating day with stressful things yet to come in a few days time. Of course, my main source of happiness, BW, will make my day brighter, so first stop, TL! Surely there will be great news for Proleague and this will give me strength to carry on! What do I see? Yet more bad rumors that have a bad habit of becoming true. This time, even more fatal for BW than ever before. I don't know what to do, so I look at the other topics for inspiration. I see this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=159975 . I get bad ideas. God, I hope this isn't true.
On October 13 2010 01:01 Milkis wrote: [*] A major corporation in Europe has offered to be a sponsor for a certain player in a certain team. The condition is that the player must move onto SC2. That gamer is a "big name", to the degree that everyone wishes "If this player switched over...". There's nothing certain and there's no name. The player in question has expressed no desire to move onto Starcraft 2 yet, but the Sponsorship amount is higher than his current salary and pretty much has the highest guaranteed salary in SC2. It is said to be one of the players who recontracted recently -- ie, could be Stork/Jaedong/Flash/Leta etc.
I think it bs.
Which "major corporation in Europe" would sponsor a Korean starcraft player ? I mean srsly ... we don't even have comp related firms. If it was Nvidia / Intel / Amd it would make sense, but Europe ? lol no way.
Still, this is the juciest rumor yet. The way it's worded makes me think it has to be flash or jd. Just imagine Deutsche Telekom stealing flash from KT. Telecom wars on a whole new level
The players make the game. It doesn't matter what game they play, as long as they play at the highest level I will be entertained. Some people act like if the Starcraft scene moves to SC2 this site will die or e-sports will be ruined, get a grip.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
I found the exact opposite. Over the last year, we've seen a completely new style of TvZ develop with several variations, a shift in the TvP matchup as terrans learn to better deal with Protoss 12 nexus play, as well as the Protoss responses to those new innovations by Terran. The game is still changing, 10 years later! It isn't stale at all.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
I agree. Those that want to move on to SC2 shouldn't be blasted by the community (both Korean and TL) for doing so. In the same light, those that want to continue playing BW should be able to.
At this rate it seems unlikely the scene will manage to survive another PL season even if the negotiations go over smoothly (which is very unlikely to begin with).
Sigh... the only thing I can hope for is that the SC2 scene will get a lot more exiting when it gets bigger, because right now even the best SC2 matches with the most ridiculous comebacks don't hold a candle to great BW games.
On October 13 2010 01:59 leetchaos wrote: The players make the game. It doesn't matter what game they play, as long as they play at the highest level I will be entertained. Some people act like if the Starcraft scene moves to SC2 this site will die or e-sports will be ruined, get a grip.
The hell? This isn't about TL or esports -- we're just fucking sad and angry that the game we love is dying. And if doesn't matter what game they play, then let's all just watch Command & Conquer and shit.
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
Most practice partners and B teamers have jumped ship -- they're pretty much nonexistent. Further rumors are teams that have B teamers practicing SC2 to prepare for SC2 teams, but who knows about that~
This is really bad if it's true. It points to stagnation in the talent pool. I always figured the A-S players would stick with BW but the bottom would drop out as the lower players tried to make it in SC2 instead. Combine this with the fact that two players basically win everything already, and I can see BW being reduced to a small circle of players with one or two winning every event. Sort of like WC3.
On October 13 2010 01:41 a176 wrote: I don't want to start a whole other stupid blizzard kespa argument. But what really do you think is the cause of all this? Blizz? Kespa? Lack of winnings money? Bad working environment?
I knew that people could 'switch' based on prize earnings alone, but I'm at a loss as to understand why so many teams and players are switching/disappearing. Is the purse really that significant?
If you're a B-teamer who's been playing for years but your progaming career hasn't gone anywhere, as you've never made any Proleague appearances and you never made it past the tournament qualifiers, what's keeping you in BW when there's a new game that's reputedly easier, you have a skill set that will give you a head start on most of the competition and that's where all the money is going?
With all B-teamers and practice partners leaving and no new players being recruited, it really looks like the end of the road. At this point I almost want it to die right away and spare us a slow, agonizing death, because it looks irreversible.
Agreed, but B-teamers (and also practice partners? although I could be wrong) still receive room and board and a salary, weak as it is, whereas in SC2 you have to either win or place highly in the GSL to make any semblance of money. It doesn't seem completely viable to switch from BW to SC2 when there isn't an established proteam scene to provide realistic support to players. Of course, if you have the means to live whilst practicing SC2 full time its definitely the logical choice.
with all the B-teamers and the practice partners switching, im guessing there will be no new players and no one to replenish the retiring players. so it really is the end.....
On October 13 2010 02:04 Cpadolf wrote: At this rate it seems unlikely the scene will manage to survive another PL season even if the negotiations go over smoothly (which is very unlikely to begin with).
Sigh... the only thing I can hope for is that the SC2 scene will get a lot more exiting when it gets bigger, because right now even the best SC2 matches with the most ridiculous comebacks don't hold a candle to great BW games.
I feel the excitement honestly comes down to the maps and the commentating.
Most SC2 maps are fairly small right now. so shifts do not seem as dramatic or surprising.
Also, due to the size, fatal blows are usually decisive. Naturals and bases are simply too close to the action. There is little risk in moving out.
The maps are currently small for a reason though, I believe blizzard stated they wanted small maps to help players get used to how the new units control. I am sure there will be new maps for official tournaments and such later.
The game is in its infancy. Already we've seen some crazy things. The map pool is definitely a huge hindrance, though.
Give it time, let players adjust. If SC2 is problematic with anything it's the speed in which the game is forcing itself to evolve and grow, these things take time.
I think GSL could of waited a while. Then again, the finals were awesome. Cant wait to see Boxer, NaDa and SangHo play this month.
On October 13 2010 01:59 leetchaos wrote: The players make the game. It doesn't matter what game they play, as long as they play at the highest level I will be entertained. Some people act like if the Starcraft scene moves to SC2 this site will die or e-sports will be ruined, get a grip.
The hell? This isn't about TL or esports -- we're just fucking sad and angry that the game we love is dying. And if doesn't matter what game they play, then let's all just watch Command & Conquer and shit.
I was mainly reacting to these:
On October 13 2010 01:39 konadora wrote: i'm quitting TL if every one of these rumors is true
On October 13 2010 01:08 alffla wrote: it was an awesome experience to work with all the TL staff. perhaps my time here is ending soon ~_~
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
On October 13 2010 02:15 thedeadhaji wrote: I guess broodwar progaming has such a high barrier to entry, it makes sense that practice partners / B teamers are jumping ship
I would say practice partners and B-Teamers are jumping ship for this reason and the hopes that they can get a head start on learning the game over those that will change later. Obviously everyone will eventually change, but moving earlier gives them not only the head start, but the potential to earn much more money before the vastly better players switch.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
I think he left because he didn't enjoy his lifestyle as a bw pro. can't really blame him for wanting to live a little more freely. now he can just play the game as he wants and if he is any good he can try to participate in GSL.
On October 13 2010 01:59 leetchaos wrote: The players make the game. It doesn't matter what game they play, as long as they play at the highest level I will be entertained. Some people act like if the Starcraft scene moves to SC2 this site will die or e-sports will be ruined, get a grip.
The hell? This isn't about TL or esports -- we're just fucking sad and angry that the game we love is dying. And if doesn't matter what game they play, then let's all just watch Command & Conquer and shit.
On October 13 2010 01:08 alffla wrote: it was an awesome experience to work with all the TL staff. perhaps my time here is ending soon ~_~
TLs doing great without brood war, i didn't say it was gonna die at all. just that with no more brood war scene i personally have no reason to go to TL anymore apart from talking shit on the general forums.
I really hope a lot of the old guard gets more interested in SC2. There's some great posters that post for SC2, but the writing during the last proleague was phenomenal. I'll miss that stuff.
Ugh SC2 is so bad to watch. Everything looks so damn easy, even if you are hitting with a flank from all sides. If you saw an awesome flank or Jangbi storms or ensnare go down you knew it took ridiculous amounts of practice to pull that off.
It's like watching soccer but now you can carry the ball with your hands and throw it anywhere.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
On October 13 2010 01:59 leetchaos wrote: The players make the game. It doesn't matter what game they play, as long as they play at the highest level I will be entertained. Some people act like if the Starcraft scene moves to SC2 this site will die or e-sports will be ruined, get a grip.
The hell? This isn't about TL or esports -- we're just fucking sad and angry that the game we love is dying. And if doesn't matter what game they play, then let's all just watch Command & Conquer and shit.
I was mainly reacting to these:
On October 13 2010 01:39 konadora wrote: i'm quitting TL if every one of these rumors is true
On October 13 2010 01:08 alffla wrote: it was an awesome experience to work with all the TL staff. perhaps my time here is ending soon ~_~
TLs doing great without brood war, i didn't say it was gonna die at all. just that with no more brood war scene i personally have no reason to go to TL anymore apart from talking shit on the general forums.
QFT. Reading the GSL newsposts was interesting to me only because of the writing, not the actual games. I watched some VODs... Frankly I will never play SC2, or be a part of a community that is focused only on SC2. That is what TL will become without BW. I'll be saying goodbye as well, maybe just troll some SC2 kids when I'm bored.
On October 13 2010 02:23 Fontong wrote: Ugh SC2 is so bad to watch. Everything looks so damn easy, even if you are hitting with a flank from all sides. If you saw an awesome flank or Jangbi storms or ensnare go down you knew it took ridiculous amounts of practice to pull that off.
It's like watching soccer but now you can carry the ball with your hands and throw it anywhere.
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
The notion that the best players are "1aing" is simply untrue. Unit behavior exploitation will take extreme skill and is no where near developed yet, give it time.
On October 13 2010 02:23 Fontong wrote: Ugh SC2 is so bad to watch. Everything looks so damn easy, even if you are hitting with a flank from all sides. If you saw an awesome flank or Jangbi storms or ensnare go down you knew it took ridiculous amounts of practice to pull that off.
It's like watching soccer but now you can carry the ball with your hands and throw it anywhere.
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
The notion that the best players are "1aing" is simply untrue. Unit behavior exploitation will take extreme skill and is no where near developed yet, give it time.
Doesn't change the fact that Bw micro is 10x harder than in Sc2 ( and macro 100x ).
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
The major European sponsorship player has to be Flash. He's the obvious choice given his record and popularity, plus he's still young, and on top of that he's shown much less interest in SC2 than JD has (re: "The player in question has expressed no desire to move onto Starcraft 2 yet"). That's very interesting though. I love rumors!
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
Except there are no salaries and I didn't hear about Cool re-investing that money into a team or a league or anything, unlike Boxer and many other players in the early days of BW, leading to the creation of proleague and the standard OSL/MSL and proteams and SALARIES and SPONSORS. You didn't have to start this by saying that you're not a capitalist, your myopic view of how money flows is evidence enough. Like kona said, you people will never fucking understand. I can barely veil my anger and resentment for you (not you specifically, but at all the people who so readily see the bright side of this news).
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
I don't see how my join date has anything to do with what I'm saying.
No one seems to understand that you do not need to play SC2 the way noobs do. You can, and the best players do and will control smaller groups of units just like they did in SC1.
SC2 allows bad players to play the game, but it doesn't change the way professionals play.
clicking a hotkey to a templar and selecting where you wish storm to appear on the floor tiles is exactly the same, that is fact.
Bad players can queue up all their templar and only hit one initial hotkey, however they will not be able to successfully storm players who do not group all their units together.
Again, just because the bad players are running around with one gigantic ball of units does not mean everyone is, I have no idea why people will not accept this fact.
On October 13 2010 02:28 konadora wrote: "join date: 26th august 2010"
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
I don't see how my join date has anything to do with what I'm saying.
No one seems to understand that you do not need to play SC2 the way noobs do. You can, and the best players do and will control smaller groups of units just like they did in SC1.
SC2 allows bad players to play the game, but it doesn't change the way professionals play.
clicking a hotkey to a templar and selecting where you wish storm to appear on the floor tiles is exactly the same, that is fact.
Bad players can queue up all their templar and only hit one initial hotkey, however they will not be able to successfully storm players who do not group all their units together.
Again, just because the bad players are running around with one gigantic ball of units does not mean everyone is, I have no idea why people will not accept this fact.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
god you people will never understand
hilarious post.
Konadora loves BW. He does not love SC2. He is sad to see good players leave BW. Why are you trying to argue anything at all about money?
Though, of course, you could always point out Flash made way more than Cool will make, and there's dozens and dozens of players with room and board as well as salaries (however low) while only the few top players of the GSL make any substantial cash.
But that's not the point.
EDIT: Wow this thread is getting derailed. Anyway, Boxer's transition seems to be a huge, huge deal.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
Except there are no salaries and I didn't hear about Cool re-investing that money into a team or a league or anything, unlike Boxer and many other players in the early days of BW, leading to the creation of proleague and the standard OSL/MSL and proteams and SALARIES and SPONSORS. You didn't have to start this by saying that you're not a capitalist, your myopic view of how money flows is evidence enough. Like kona said, you people will never fucking understand. I can barely veil my anger and resentment for you (not you specifically, but at all the people who so readily see the bright side of this news).
Who said there are no salaries? there are salaries, and there will be more of them. Cool's team has like 7-8 sponsors. To assume they will not be gaining an income is silly.
I started by saying I'm not a capitalist because kona accused me of being so.
There is obviously a negative side to this news. It's horrible that a culture that has grown over so long has to be so shaken. It's horrible the way things are going on. This could of been much smoother. But it's also horrible that there a lot of people who do not want Starcraft 2 to succeed, they are equally in the wrong.
There is, however a lot of great news here, and a bright future for a lot of new players, and old players a like. To simply push away any positive side to this is just as bad as to ignore the bad, is that not true?
On October 13 2010 02:28 konadora wrote: "join date: 26th august 2010"
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
I don't see how my join date has anything to do with what I'm saying.
No one seems to understand that you do not need to play SC2 the way noobs do. You can, and the best players do and will control smaller groups of units just like they did in SC1.
SC2 allows bad players to play the game, but it doesn't change the way professionals play.
clicking a hotkey to a templar and selecting where you wish storm to appear on the floor tiles is exactly the same, that is fact.
Bad players can queue up all their templar and only hit one initial hotkey, however they will not be able to successfully storm players who do not group all their units together.
Again, just because the bad players are running around with one gigantic ball of units does not mean everyone is, I have no idea why people will not accept this fact.
Is that not true?
In SC2 anyone can do Jangbi-esque storms
As for SC1, do you know what cloning is?
The micro tricks will differ for the games, obviously cloning doesnt work in Starcraft 2. They are different games! Give it time.
To say that anyone can pull off jangbi-esque storms is a little ignorant, because if the opponent doesnt walk around with 1 control group it will become increasingly difficult to land them.
On October 13 2010 02:28 konadora wrote: "join date: 26th august 2010"
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
I don't see how my join date has anything to do with what I'm saying.
No one seems to understand that you do not need to play SC2 the way noobs do. You can, and the best players do and will control smaller groups of units just like they did in SC1.
SC2 allows bad players to play the game, but it doesn't change the way professionals play.
clicking a hotkey to a templar and selecting where you wish storm to appear on the floor tiles is exactly the same, that is fact.
Bad players can queue up all their templar and only hit one initial hotkey, however they will not be able to successfully storm players who do not group all their units together.
Again, just because the bad players are running around with one gigantic ball of units does not mean everyone is, I have no idea why people will not accept this fact.
Is that not true?
In SC2 anyone can do Jangbi-esque storms
As for SC1, do you know what cloning is?
The micro tricks will differ for the games, obviously cloning doesnt work in Starcraft 2. They are different games! Give it time.
To say that anyone can pull off jangbi-esque storms is a little ignorant, because if the opponent doesnt walk around with 1 control group it will become increasingly difficult to land them.
Dude just stop trying to argue, you don't know what you're talking about. I promise things wont end well if you keep trying to go against the BW population of TL
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
god you people will never understand
hilarious post.
Konadora loves BW. He does not love SC2. He is sad to see good players leave BW. Why are you trying to argue anything at all about money?
Though, of course, you could always point out Flash made way more than Cool will make, and there's dozens and dozens of players with room and board as well as salaries (however low) while only the few top players of the GSL make any substantial cash.
But that's not the point.
EDIT: Wow this thread is getting derailed. Anyway, Boxer's transition seems to be a huge, huge deal.
i would like to point out that i do not "do not love SC2". i do in fact watch the GSL and found the finals to be exciting. my threads and posts i made regarding to SC2 is about how it is bad for a (relatively) newbie (to sc2) to watching a SC2 VOD and pointed out its flaws.
what i am pissed about is that people have no idea how significant a role brood war, the very definition of e-sports in korea, has played during the history of esports, and is being given no credit or recognition at all, especially by the new users on TL who think they have all the knowledge with regards to "e-sports". 10 years of history in the making being tossed down the chute like a trash.
edit: lol you think i followed bw for money? jesus fucking christ.
when G.O had to pay for their food out of their own pocket, if they were doing it for money, they could have left to further their studies and make more MONEY. instead, they didn't. why? because passion for the game is what drives fans and players. you see people hugging each other in ecstasy and screaming after Flash vs Jaedong game 2 for WCG because Jaedong had more chance to earn money? you think thousands of people gathered to watch July vs Best because an old player has finally gotten another chance to earn more money?
I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
god you people will never understand
hilarious post.
Konadora loves BW. He does not love SC2. He is sad to see good players leave BW. Why are you trying to argue anything at all about money?
Though, of course, you could always point out Flash made way more than Cool will make, and there's dozens and dozens of players with room and board as well as salaries (however low) while only the few top players of the GSL make any substantial cash.
But that's not the point.
EDIT: Wow this thread is getting derailed. Anyway, Boxer's transition seems to be a huge, huge deal.
If you read my original post I was never trying to argue money. I am the neutral here, I am on both sides. I love both games. I am sad to see the end of legends from Brood war as well, however, I do not see it as the end. I see it as a new start. Is that wrong as well? I believe kona was cursing money for being the reason they left. I am simply stating money is the only reason they were ever there in the first place.
Flash makes more than cool does now, but that is irrelevant. Eventually SC2 salaries will exceed SC1 salaries, they have to. Economics and progression simply work that way.
kona doesn't have to love SC2. I was simply asking why, I made it clear I was not attacking anyone.
I'm sorry to kona if I appeared that way, and to anyone else, but I am simply attempting to look at the positive side of things. I love starcraft. What version of starcraft it is is not so important to me.
Let's say you love oranges, and then the local store got 100 dollars to throw away all the oranges and replace them with apples, and then told you that apples are better than oranges because they are easier to eat but still really tasty, and therefore you should be happy. You would probably be pissed just like we are. I've tried apples. I'll have my oranges plz.
On October 13 2010 02:37 JIJIyO wrote: Stop Nu11. Stop. You won't convince us about sc2 stuff. We won't convince you about SC stuff. Stop.
You don't need to convince me about SC1. I have been a fan just as long as you! Do I need to go take pictures with my team shirts!?
I am just trying to see some positive in it. I am depressed as well. I saw great potential in Effort and him leaving specifically hurts me too. But If it's better for him, I will support him.
That's all I'm trying to do, nothing else. The same culture that was created in broodwar should exist in SC2.
nothing else. I am not trying to convince anyone to change their minds, I am just speaking mine. I have ever right to just like you. If you read every one of my posts I have never once said anything against broodwar, or agaisnt keeping broodwar the way it is. I have only said I wish for them both to remain.
I'll stop posting here, I have not gone against anyone, I have no idea why people attack others for simply wishing to discuss a topic.
Hostility for someone who is clearly not attempting to harm your passion, because it his own as well is not right.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
god you people will never understand
hilarious post.
Konadora loves BW. He does not love SC2. He is sad to see good players leave BW. Why are you trying to argue anything at all about money?
Though, of course, you could always point out Flash made way more than Cool will make, and there's dozens and dozens of players with room and board as well as salaries (however low) while only the few top players of the GSL make any substantial cash.
But that's not the point.
EDIT: Wow this thread is getting derailed. Anyway, Boxer's transition seems to be a huge, huge deal.
i would like to point out that i do not "do not love SC2". i do in fact watch the GSL and found the finals to be exciting. my threads and posts i made regarding to SC2 is about how it is bad for a (relatively) newbie (to sc2) to watching a SC2 VOD and pointed out its flaws.
what i am pissed about is that people have no idea how significant a role brood war, the very definition of e-sports in korea, has played during the history of esports, and is being given no credit or recognition at all, especially by the new users on TL who think they have all the knowledge with regards to "e-sports". 10 years of history in the making being tossed down the chute like a trash.
Sorry for putting words in your mouth, I thought you weren't very interested in SC2, your posts seemed to indicate that, but yeah, I can see that.
Also, I kinda agree, though I admit to being fairly new to the entire "scene." I've known who Boxer was for years, and known that there was pro-SC, but only really started watching BW when I got into the SC2 beta. I still think the BW pros are better than the SC2 pros, right now, but we'll see in the GSL2.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
Except there are no salaries and I didn't hear about Cool re-investing that money into a team or a league or anything, unlike Boxer and many other players in the early days of BW, leading to the creation of proleague and the standard OSL/MSL and proteams and SALARIES and SPONSORS. You didn't have to start this by saying that you're not a capitalist, your myopic view of how money flows is evidence enough. Like kona said, you people will never fucking understand. I can barely veil my anger and resentment for you (not you specifically, but at all the people who so readily see the bright side of this news).
Who said there are no salaries? there are salaries, and there will be more of them. Cool's team has like 7-8 sponsors. To assume they will not be gaining an income is silly.
I started by saying I'm not a capitalist because kona accused me of being so.
There is obviously a negative side to this news. It's horrible that a culture that has grown over so long has to be so shaken. It's horrible the way things are going on. This could of been much smoother. But it's also horrible that there a lot of people who do not want Starcraft 2 to succeed, they are equally in the wrong.
There is, however a lot of great news here, and a bright future for a lot of new players, and old players a like. To simply push away any positive side to this is just as bad as to ignore the bad, is that not true?
It's like you're standing next to someone whose favorite pet dog just died and saying "oh well, forget about it, at least you'll have more time for your cat :D"
Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place.
On October 13 2010 02:52 Kralic wrote: Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place.
bet you wouldn't be "all for it" if it was SC2 being put in "hibernation" instead, jackass
Knee-jerk reactions of elitism (like Kona quoting people with nothing to add but their join date) is really sad to see here. You're seriously "quitting TL if all of these are true" ... So because you see the bw scene as dying out you are gonna go ahead and contribute to that exodus. good on you man. I love bw for all its worth but I guess I'm lucky enough to be able to love sc2 as well.
At some point older tl'ers are gonna have to accept that being earlier on the e-sports scene doesn't give anyone the right to lambaste newcomers, or else they are gonna end up angry and lonely (I'm not trying to be insulting so don't take me the wrong way). It's not like the broodwar section is going away tomorrow, guys.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
What? You don't even know what you are talking about. Directly into which players pockets exactly, the couple of people who got far enough into the tournament, as opposed to players actually receiving salaries in BW...
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
I don't hate SC2 and i wished it all the best....but only if it wouldn't touch a single bw's hair and it fucking killed it instead. I am sorry, but this pissed me off. I will also leave TL when bw is dead (might be good news for some poeple).
Just to explain to some SC2 fans: I personally found SC2 boring as shit as i quit after 2 weeks of playing BETA. The game looks bad, control is horrible, MBS, smartcasting, automine, horrible sounds and many more negatives for me and this will never change even after 5 years of developement. Hell, when i saw every little cool trick that people have managed to pull out in SC2 i was like: yeah nice....When i saw any good trick or nice play overall in BW i was like: Holy fucking hell man that is the most incredible shit i've ever seen, shat my pants and got drunk to celebrate the move. SC2 took another direction than the one i loved and i don't like it. The fact that it managed to kill the game i love doesn't help anything too. So please leave some of your SC2 pro comments at home, beacause it is not changing anything.
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
You have no idea what you're talking about. If BW dies then who will think e-sports is going to last? Also, the reason e-sports didn't develop in the west is because of the culture, not lack of trying on Kespa's part or something.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
For any number of reasons, but they don't all relate to the game itself. The vast majority of us aren't "rejecting" the game itself (I'd guess about 85% of us bought and play the game), just complaining about the absolute debacle the professional transition in Korea has become.
There were basically two "natural" possibilities:
- Continued existence of SC:BW leagues as viable. Old-school appeal plus 10 years of experience and polish, while the new game grew up alongside with newer names and a few BW retirees. In two or three years, BW would either fall by the wayside naturally, or reassert itself as a superior game. - Wholesale switch to SC2 immediately.
Instead, we got a muddle, between Blizzard trying to assert rights they'd left alone (and insulting KeSPA/MBC/others), tension in Korea left over from the issues surrounding GOM, and so on and so forth. There are no heroes in management right now, and SC2 is the point of contention that brought it all forward.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: ...Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
Of course there's now new potential for a new game to develop. But it's not the same game. And this is a sticking point. At some point, if eSports wants real creditability as a "sport", it's going to have to go one of two directions:
- Become a "*athlon" style discipline, where individuals or small teams have to all participate in several different "disciplines". Sort of a full-measure-of-a-gamer approach. This would also allow for keeping games "updated" with new versions etc. - Standardize the games. At some point, the breakneck pace of game development becomes a drawback for maintaining a sport.
And this is what irritates me about SC2: Broodwar had reached what could have been a solidifying point in its existence: The last of the original founding greats are starting to give up, the next generation has apparently stretched out the game to its reasonable strategic boundaries. At this point, in a normal sport, cyclical strategic patterns start to appear, improvement can be quantified in some sense because all the groundwork's in place, people just keep getting better, faster, smarter. But instead, that natural progression has been usurped by a totally new game.
Flash is the pinnacle of Broodwar now, and SC2 means he likely will always be (unless we see a "BW revival league" that manages to last). But in a natural progression of a sport, 20 years from now Flash would be a Hall of Famer, but new maps, new strategies, new formats for leagues would have rendered some of his accomplishments as just one of many, and others as "the only one" - but only because the accomplishment didn't mean anything in that (hypothetical) future's terms.
In terms of rendering SC as an actual sport in this sense, about the best we can hope for right now is for Blizzard to collapse 5-10 years down the road, and leave a fully developed SC2 scene as The Best Gaming Has. Or at least for Blizzard to get new management that doesn't insist on pushing the Newest onto a professional scene whenever they get around to SC3.
On October 13 2010 02:52 Kralic wrote: Odd rumors for some of those, some are neat some just make you go wtf. BW might just be going into hibernation for a bit.
Some people will leave the community some will stay depending on what happens. I am all for that because some of the hostility on this forum is pathetic and annoying to sift through in threads that have anything to do with BW and SC2 mentioned in the same place.
bet you wouldn't be "all for it" if it was SC2 being put in "hibernation" instead, jackass
How am I all for it? I didn't say if it was a good or a bad thing. Thank you for showing me some more of that hostility that goes with these threads though.
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
You have no idea what you're talking about. If BW dies then who will think e-sports is going to last? Also, the reason e-sports didn't develop in the west is because of the culture, not lack of trying on Kespa's part or something.
e-sports have been born like a decade before SCBW came out. So e-sports will be fine. And no, we have had plenty of professional gamers in WC3, CS and various shooters such as painkiller or quake live, and its not out of realm of possibility that SC2 will be the game to break through uniting SCBW and WC3 fans as well as quiet possibly CS ones(since its getting largely boring and we saw even xeqtr play SC2)
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
i understand these feelings but the main reason i love SC2 so is because we finally have a chance of seeing an international professional e-sports scene. And i am willing to accept BW as sacrifice for the greater good:X
This is the other thing that bothers me. So much money are poured into SC2, without anyone knowing if it will be a good e-sports game. Especially when talking about RTS games, at least an year or two have to pass before its clear if the game is ok IMO. BW pro-scene started only after all the balancing was done and the interest in the game was growing. Now we have the opposite, incredible ammount of money are given to establish a pro-scene for a game two years old, regardless that still there are not even normal maps to play on, not to mention the balance. The foundation of the bw pro-scene were us - the fans, who have grown up with this game. We supported it no matter what. We still play it and watch it regardless of all the new games that come out. I am afraid that after 2-3 years, when Diablo 3 is out, or the latest WOW expansion is out the same "super fans of pro SC2" will just move over to the newest hit game and this will be it. We`ll be left with no korea sc and SC2 scene similar to the current WC3.
If it wasn't for SC2 i would never have found TL and most likely didn't end up spending more time with RTS games... but on the other hand i wish SCBW would have gotten me into the scene instead of SC2... i would happily switch to BW if SC2 was a fail :[
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
This is like the absolute worst argument ever. It's not even an argument. Why exactly is it time to move on? How is 10 years a long time? "Wow guys, football is over 100 years old, it's really time to move on now."
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
We still like watching and playing BW, why should we be forced to "move on". And move on to what? To something I don't like?
The point here is that many BW fans are not given the choice to either watch BW or SC2 or both. It's becoming SC2 or nothing.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
you and your capitalism know-hows
I am far from a capitalist, but without money people cannot live in todays society. Without sponsored prize pools and salaries pro-gamers cannot live. They would need to pursue other activities.
It shocks me that you would be upset by the "money" issue; specifically in regards to the GSL and its high prize pool taking players. It's such a wonderful thing that these people can make more money than they are making now. Many of them do not make enough as it is. With such high prize pools on a monthly basis I can see many teams offering higher salaries, better living conditions, more sponsors, more teams and an overall vast improvement to the life of a pro-gamer.
For instance, Cool, the winner for the first TSL just won 100m won for a months work. That would never happen in broodwar due to the structure of the proleagues. Is that not a good thing? I don't see it being bad. Imagine what he can do for his team and their players now. I just dont understand the selfishness of some members here. Throwing money at esports that is going directly into the players pockets is NEVER a bad thing.
What? You don't even know what you are talking about. Directly into which players pockets exactly, the couple of people who got far enough into the tournament, as opposed to players actually receiving salaries in BW...
I am out of this thread, but there will be salaries in SC2. I am almost positive a number of teams now have salaries set up.
It's silly to think the same situation we have now for broodwar will not exist in SC2, just with bigger prize pools and more teams.
On October 13 2010 03:18 Kenny wrote: This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
Thing is, the fans should decide this, not the money.
(Korean) BW isn't dying because the korean fans want to watch SC2 all of a sudden. There were TONS of people showing up at every single live event in Korea last year. They still love the game and many foreigners still do, too. And it didn't become that way because whatever companies threw huge amounts of money and proclame their game the new greatest e-sport, it became that way because the game was loved by the players and by the fans and has been so for 10 years full of awesome stuff .
TLDR: Money should go where the fans want to go, not the other way around. The way things seem to be occuring seems everything but natural, and that's really really sad.
On October 13 2010 03:02 Ricjames wrote: I don't hate SC2 and i wished it all the best....but only if it wouldn't touch a single bw's hair and it fucking killed it instead. I am sorry, but this pissed me off. I will also leave TL when bw is dead (might be good news for some poeple).
Just to explain to some SC2 fans: I personally found SC2 boring as shit as i quit after 2 weeks of playing BETA. The game looks bad, control is horrible, MBS, smartcasting, automine, horrible sounds and many more negatives for me and this will never change even after 5 years of developement. Hell, when i saw every little cool trick that people have managed to pull out in SC2 i was like: yeah nice....When i saw any good trick or nice play overall in BW i was like: Holy fucking hell man that is the most incredible shit i've ever seen, shat my pants and got drunk to celebrate the move. SC2 took another direction than the one i loved and i don't like it. The fact that it managed to kill the game i love doesn't help anything too. So please leave some of your SC2 pro comments at home, beacause it is not changing anything.
Also everything Konadora has said...
Lmfao. so full of poop its incredible. I'm happy people like you are leaving this site. SC2 is the reason im on TL and I'm sure many others as well...
Look kids, SC2 didn't force anyone to play it. "Your" pro's decided its a much better game and decided to come on over. They all know theres a salary to be had with BW but they just don't care anymore. The game is dead.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
Woah, relax friend. I know you want everything to stay the way it was, but honestly can you blame them? It's not about "my game is growing and yours is shrinking". This was going to happen eventually. Nothing lasts forever. At least now there is something that can replace it for *hopefully* another 10 years. Who knows, maybe in 10 years there will be another starcraft game that will bring back a bunch of old pros and new faces. Change is a good thing bro.
Wow these rumors are really sad if they come true but worst of all, the posts on this thread are defnitely not helping. I really wish people were more open-minded... Come on, esports is the future of entertainment, but some people, including some shortsighted die-hard BW fans, really have a reactionary behavior. That's the saddest thing of all. Hell, even coaches and players are considering switching to sc2, why aren't their fans as open-minded?
We knew very well that BW wouldn't last forever, and that sc2 would be the next natural step in the evolution of esports. I don't really understand people saying "BW is dying". To me, on the contrary the BW scene is evolving. From there, the phenomenon of players as well as money switching and transitioning to sc2 was predictable and expected.
But what really depresses me is when I read that "I HATE sc2 it is shitty, the skill ceiling is low, it's not a spectator sport, it's boring, I prefer godlike BW players..." Don't tell me this is exagerrated because I actually saw that kind of comments. Man that is so shortsighted that I don't even know where to start... Do you really think that there already were bonjwa players and gosu micro 4 months after stracraft 1 was released? People should stop acting like spoiled fat kids. Having such a retrograde mindset is leading you nowhere.
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
Nothing lasts forever.
idk international chess has been around for a few hundred years now.
Do you really think that there already were bonjwa players and gosu micro 4 months after stracraft 1 was released? People should stop acting like spoiled fat kids. Having such a retrograde mindset is leading you nowhere.
You're saying that any game, regardless of skill cap or design, will allow for gosu micro given enough time? This is a false statement. People aren't just complaining that the player micro is bad, but the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much.
SC2 is inevitable. Either conform or die slowly. Rumors like this only seem to provide the truth behind the case.
Edit: No I'm not bashing BW, I love BW, but look at what's happening around here because of the controversy, teams unsure of what to do, some disbanding, ugh. Going to lose a lot of good players if something isn't panned out.
This fall has been more tragic than I expected. I thought we'd see people slowly lose interest, but Brood War would still hold pretty solid. Seems that everything is falling apart extremely quickly though... I don't know if there's a future.
Edit:
On October 13 2010 03:30 PoP wrote:
Thing is, the fans should decide this, not the money.
(Korean) BW isn't dying because the korean fans want to watch SC2 all of a sudden. There were TONS of people showing up at every single live event in Korea last year. They still love the game and many foreigners still do, too. And it didn't become that way because whatever companies threw huge amounts of money and proclame their game the new greatest e-sport, it became that way because the game was loved by the players and by the fans and has been so for 10 years full of awesome stuff .
TLDR: Money should go where the fans want to go, not the other way around. The way things seem to be occuring seems everything but natural, and that's really really sad.
Urgh, I absolutely understand SC2 is not a bad thing at all. It is awesome game that deserves its current fanbase and hype. But it doesn't mean I have to like the death of BW, so please stop pestering us unless we directly criticize the game plz. For christ sake by definition you should be happy about the "I am quitting TL qq" posts since you are bothered by their close-mindedness enough to attack them on it.
Most practice partners and B teamers have jumped ship -- they're pretty much nonexistent. Further rumors are teams that have B teamers practicing SC2 to prepare for SC2 teams, but who knows about that~
On October 13 2010 03:48 Half wrote: You're saying that any game, regardless of skill cap or design, will allow for gosu micro given enough time? This is a false statement. People aren't just complaining that the player micro is bad, but the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much.
I don't understand how you can presume to make a statement like that. Designed to hinder micro? *sigh*
idk international chess has been around for a few hundred years now.
You're saying that any game, regardless of skill cap or design, will allow for gosu micro given enough time? This is a false statement. People aren't just complaining that the player micro is bad, but the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much.
First you compare chess with esports. I won't argue about that because my english skills are somewhat limited but it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Second you say that "the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much." Such a huge statement surely deserves to be backed by solid evidence. Can you direct me to an relevant thread? I bet that you, like me, may be tired of seeing "pro" gamers a-move big balls of unit into each other. That is not because of bad design. To me that is the consequence of insufficient player skill. I think that they may be lacking apm, or they may be lacking tactical sense. E.g marines vs. banelings, I have never seen a Terran player actually micro individually his marines (actually I saw it only once) in order to avoid banelings. Another example would be Zergling micro. Too often I see uncontroled zerglings running in circles and doing nothing but blocking the path of other units. All in all there are lots of instances when players do not micro properly. Fortunately perfect micro is not yet mandatory but I'm confident that it will become obligatory over time, when players will actually step their game up. I definitely feel that in term of micro we have only seen the emerging tip of the iceberg .
On October 13 2010 03:09 Patriot.dlk wrote: If someone thinks e-sports is better off not having sc2 they have been living under a rock imo.
Turncoat.
What do you mean by this I don't appreciate you calling me a turncoat for no reason? I just wrote that "been living under a rock" thing because I saw some silly posts about sc2 ruining e-sports when in fact it feels the opposite for me (can't keep track of all the tournaments and good stuff going on). And the "everyone can compete" thing instead of the need for a license etc is great.
And yes I totally get the arguments from PoP and others and if had any interest in bw left in me I would probably be upset as well and I wouldn't mind if both games co-existed.
But it's not wrong to be happy about seeing life flourishing into your favorite thing to do and I love that many of my old heroes can return to this game. And I don't want to sound like a selfish pig but I kind of hoped that bw would come crashing down rather then slowly crumble away.
On October 13 2010 03:09 Patriot.dlk wrote: If someone thinks e-sports is better off not having sc2 they have been living under a rock imo.
Turncoat.
What do you mean by this I don't appreciate you calling me a turncoat for no reason? I just wrote that "been living under a rock" thing because I saw some silly posts about sc2 ruining e-sports when in fact it feels the opposite for me (can't keep track of all the tournaments and good stuff going on). And the "everyone can compete" thing instead of the need for a license etc is great.
And yes I totally get the arguments from PoP and others and if had any interest in bw left in me I would probably be upset as well and I wouldn't mind if both games co-existed.
But it's not wrong to be happy about seeing life flourishing into your favorite thing to do and I love that many of my old heroes can return to this game. And I don't want to sound like a selfish pig but I kind of hoped that bw would come crashing down rather then slowly crumble away.
I can't think of something acceptable to post in response to this, sorry.
On October 13 2010 03:18 Kenny wrote: This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
Thing is, the fans should decide this, not the money.
(Korean) BW isn't dying because the korean fans want to watch SC2 all of a sudden. There were TONS of people showing up at every single live event in Korea last year. They still love the game and many foreigners still do, too. And it didn't become that way because whatever companies threw huge amounts of money and proclame their game the new greatest e-sport, it became that way because the game was loved by the players and by the fans and has been so for 10 years full of awesome stuff .
TLDR: Money should go where the fans want to go, not the other way around. The way things seem to be occuring seems everything but natural, and that's really really sad.
I've noticed that whenever PoP makes a post in one of these threads, he always manages to express exactly what I'm thinking so perfectly.
People don't understand that we're not bitching about BW dying; we're bitching about BW being murdered.
Bad. This is terrible news. I'm even mad at Milkis for posting this. I feel like killing the shit out of something now.
This day started so relaxed and cool. Suddenly... Rage. Call me when SC2 is at least on the level BW was a year ago and maybe I'll think about watching this.
TL has been switching to SC2 pretty hard too. I mostly just hang around the S&G Forums as it is if BW is gone... Hell I don't know. This is just sad.
This is the douchiest post in my TL history but dammit this situation calls for it. Anyone that is happy that BW pro-scene is in trouble should spontaneously combust. You are an unappreciative, ignorant, hypocritical little scrub that has no idea what SC:BW means for the the gaming scene and people's lives. The SC2 scene is standing on BW's shoulders right now and while it might eventually crush it it wouldn't be anywhere close to were it is if BW wasn't there first.
I would like to say this and i stand behind this statement completely. If SC2 was not called Starcraft 2 and wasn't from Blizzard - There would be probably like 3-5% of bw players switching to it completely and probably not a big chance of very succesful e-sport in there. About 80% of whole teams and top foreign players are switching to it only because of money/popularity and bigger chance to maybe achieve something. Not because they think it is better game or has bigger potential. I might be wrong but i am pretty sure it is very close to that what i said. The bw scene should have stayed like it was and continued developing and SC2 scene should've been going it's way aside it and not top it the day it was released...i mean what kind of forced bs is that.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
This is like the absolute worst argument ever. It's not even an argument. Why exactly is it time to move on? How is 10 years a long time? "Wow guys, football is over 100 years old, it's really time to move on now."
On October 13 2010 03:09 Patriot.dlk wrote: If someone thinks e-sports is better off not having sc2 they have been living under a rock imo.
Turncoat.
What do you mean by this I don't appreciate you calling me a turncoat for no reason? I just wrote that "been living under a rock" thing because I saw some silly posts about sc2 ruining e-sports when in fact it feels the opposite for me (can't keep track of all the tournaments and good stuff going on). And the "everyone can compete" thing instead of the need for a license etc is great.
And yes I totally get the arguments from PoP and others and if had any interest in bw left in me I would probably be upset as well and I wouldn't mind if both games co-existed.
But it's not wrong to be happy about seeing life flourishing into your favorite thing to do and I love that many of my old heroes can return to this game. And I don't want to sound like a selfish pig but I kind of hoped that bw would come crashing down rather then slowly crumble away.
I can't think of something acceptable to post in response to this, sorry.
Hrmm, I'll try to explain better. I never expected bw to survive sc2, Since it was going so strong I was not sure at all but the was blizzard was hard launching sc2, i expected bw to go down slow in a crumbling fashion... This for me would be a very sad thing to see I never want my heroes to go down like that and I think it's better if they don't...
Reach has a high chance of moving onto SC2 after he is released from military. No confirmation on this.
Mantoss playing unmanly game? Yeah right!
And to all this people saying BW had 10 years and it's time to move on, I hope you get kicked in the balls by some weird half naked guy doing a reality tv show about kicking random people in balls!
Okay some people is being a little silly here I think it's okay though I get that you are sad. I'm felt like rubbing it in making the list even longer (mentioning facts like all the good commentators switched etc) as a response to you wishing me a kick in the nuts and what not but I'm just going to stop reading this thread now instead ;o
Reach has a high chance of moving onto SC2 after he is released from military. No confirmation on this.
Mantoss playing unmanly game? Yeah right!
And to all this people saying BW had 10 years and it's time to move on, I hope you get kicked in the balls by some weird half naked guy doing a reality tv show about kicking random people in balls!
"Not getting kicked in the balls has had 10 years, and it's time to move on!"
On October 13 2010 02:08 JIJIyO wrote: I...........hate............sc2.............
And Effort if you're really going into sc2 I don't know what to think =/ How could you leave SC for that game.
If only there was more money thrown at SC since it's the only way to compete with sc2. People go where money goes I guess. And I still can't believe the old school greats are going to it.............goddamn.........
On October 13 2010 02:04 strength wrote: Nice i hope everything switches to SC2. Seems like the old retired players are coming back to play =] A bigger community !
And I know it's not your intention (hopefully) to piss me off, and people who post this are usually just happy their game is growing, but. I FUCKING RAGE WHEN I SEE THESE MESSAGES ARJILG. Sigh.
why would you say "for that game"
it is the natural evolution for starcraft 1 players to move to Starcraft 2. It is the successor to that game, like broodwar was to the original Starcraft.
The only reason anyone was ever playing SC at a competitive level in Korea was for money, dont let yourself be blinded by your love. It is a buisness. Esports is a business. SC1 is only as popular as a professional esport because there was money to be made.
You cannot compare BW-SC1 to SC1-SC2
YOU CANNOT DO IT. I can write like a 5 page essay on this, but I'll just save my time
On October 13 2010 02:23 Fontong wrote: Ugh SC2 is so bad to watch. Everything looks so damn easy, even if you are hitting with a flank from all sides. If you saw an awesome flank or Jangbi storms or ensnare go down you knew it took ridiculous amounts of practice to pull that off.
It's like watching soccer but now you can carry the ball with your hands and throw it anywhere.
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
The notion that the best players are "1aing" is simply untrue. Unit behavior exploitation will take extreme skill and is no where near developed yet, give it time.
The big difference is, in SC2, micro is easy as hell because its just move back, hold, move back, hold. I'm a zerg player and i can micro a reaper damn near perfection. In SC1, I was a zerg player, but I couldn't control vultures, or wraiths. Hell, I couldn't even control my units half the damn time. Do you have any idea how hard muta control is? I'd like to see you hold and move back on that one
QUOTE]On October 13 2010 02:31 Nu11 wrote:
On October 13 2010 02:28 konadora wrote: "join date: 26th august 2010"
There is very little difference between micro in SC2 and micro in SC1.
In fact, players who are better at micro in SC2 will gain an even greater advantage than they will in SC1 due to how units work.
It looks exactly the same to the observer, btw.
I don't see how my join date has anything to do with what I'm saying.
No one seems to understand that you do not need to play SC2 the way noobs do. You can, and the best players do and will control smaller groups of units just like they did in SC1.
SC2 allows bad players to play the game, but it doesn't change the way professionals play.
clicking a hotkey to a templar and selecting where you wish storm to appear on the floor tiles is exactly the same, that is fact.
Bad players can queue up all their templar and only hit one initial hotkey, however they will not be able to successfully storm players who do not group all their units together.
Again, just because the bad players are running around with one gigantic ball of units does not mean everyone is, I have no idea why people will not accept this fact.
Is that not true? [/QUOTE] People like you just piss me off and drive me into RAGE. Play SC1 on iccup and try to get to D+ and then you can start talking.
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
Maaaaaan, would all of you stop, take a deep breath, and THINK about it a bit ?
What was Brood War in 2001 ? Did it have 1 base play, cheesy games ? Yes. Did it have muta micro, cute tricks, well thought-out maps ? No. Were there Pro-teams, salaries, sponsored gamers ? No, or so few...
HOW CAN YOU SAY that sc2 is WORSE than sc1 ? You're comparing to a game 10years old ! Just look at what that game was back then, and see how much sc2 has evolved in 3 months ? Micro tricks are coming (void rays, magic box, etc etc), corps (even european) are thinking about hiring teams or players, we already have a league...
It's not starting from scratch ! It is taking giant steps and probably, if the game lives up to its expectations and actually has the skill ceiling and wow! factor for spectators, in about 1, 1.5years we will have catched up to where brood war was 6 months ago ! It is not destroying only to destroy, but to evolve and develop...
I love brood war too, right NOW, I find it to be more fun to watch, but sc reached it's ceiling imo 2 years ago, it's becoming too old, less young blood is coming, less spectators compared to 2 years ago... Would you have even DREAMED about an osl finals abroad ? They didn't have a CHOICE if they wanted to try and grow anymore....
if you don't want to see sc2 grow, you'll only find the death of all starcraft at the end in a few years... It might not be exactly the same game, but hell, ending like war3 with a few tourneys with the only 10 same players and same games for 3 years is NOT the end you want to see. Give esport a chance to develop even further, and don't fucking blame starcraft 2 for killing brood war, when it is transitioning to something potentially bigger instead of slowly dying... (look at the spectator count over the last 3 years and have the guts to tell me it wouldn't have died eventually in another 2/3years...)
OK you love brood war, most of us do, but don't shit on sc2. please.
Also i find it funny how all of these older members / site contributors are getting warned / temp banned in posts, when they are responding to intentionally inflammatory or ignorant posts from new members. How far TL has fallen Now TL is here to please the SC2 crowd, because it is the sc2 crowd that is bringing in the money for the site.
On October 13 2010 05:20 Ramiel wrote: Also i find it funny how all of these older members / site contributors are getting warned / temp banned in posts, when they are responding to intentionally inflammatory or ignorant posts from new members. How far TL has fallen Now TL is here to please the SC2 crowd, because it is the sc2 crowd that is bringing in the money for the site.
Read those banned comments again. TL champions rationality and reason above all else.
On October 13 2010 05:20 Ramiel wrote: Also i find it funny how all of these older members / site contributors are getting warned / temp banned in posts, when they are responding to intentionally inflammatory or ignorant posts from new members. How far TL has fallen Now TL is here to please the SC2 crowd, because it is the sc2 crowd that is bringing in the money for the site.
Read those banned comments again. TL champions rationality and reason above all else.
And the same could be said for the obtuse comments of the plethora of low post count noobs.
SC2 will die, when Blizzard makes a new RTS. mhahaha. Sad that I tuned into BW around beginning of 2010, maybe I still have a chance watch a full year of PL. SC2 will not last longer than BW, the only reason for their success is the star power they're gaining from ex-BW legends. With Blizzard having control over everything involving SC2, it will not progress over the primitive "e-sports" structure. Top 5 players will make a living off it while the rest starve. Have fun.
On October 13 2010 02:40 mdb wrote: I`m so sad reading all of this. The worst thing is that someone managed to destroy a pro-scene that was build so hard over the years for a game that is just simply worse than bw. I cant get over this.
Maaaaaan, would all of you stop, take a deep breath, and THINK about it a bit ?
What was Brood War in 2001 ? Did it have 1 base play, cheesy games ? Yes. Did it have muta micro, cute tricks, well thought-out maps ? No. Were there Pro-teams, salaries, sponsored gamers ? No, or so few...
HOW CAN YOU SAY that sc2 is WORSE than sc1 ? You're comparing to a game 10years old ! Just look at what that game was back then, and see how much sc2 has evolved in 3 months ? Micro tricks are coming (void rays, magic box, etc etc), corps (even european) are thinking about hiring teams or players, we already have a league...
It's not starting from scratch ! It is taking giant steps and probably, if the game lives up to its expectations and actually has the skill ceiling and wow! factor for spectators, in about 1, 1.5years we will have catched up to where brood war was 6 months ago ! It is not destroying only to destroy, but to evolve and develop...
I love brood war too, right NOW, I find it to be more fun to watch, but sc reached it's ceiling imo 2 years ago, it's becoming too old, less young blood is coming, less spectators compared to 2 years ago... Would you have even DREAMED about an osl finals abroad ? They didn't have a CHOICE if they wanted to try and grow anymore....
if you don't want to see sc2 grow, you'll only find the death of all starcraft at the end in a few years... It might not be exactly the same game, but hell, ending like war3 with a few tourneys with the only 10 same players and same games for 3 years is NOT the end you want to see. Give esport a chance to develop even further, and don't fucking blame starcraft 2 for killing brood war, when it is transitioning to something potentially bigger instead of slowly dying... (look at the spectator count over the last 3 years and have the guts to tell me it wouldn't have died eventually in another 2/3years...)
OK you love brood war, most of us do, but don't shit on sc2. please.
First of all me and I believe most of the veterans here, dont shit on sc2. Saying that it is worse than bw, doesnt mean that the game is shit. On the contrary, it is very fun to play and to some extent to watch. BUT there is no doubt in my mind that BW is the superior game in every meaningfull for RTS game aspect. And I dont need 10 years to be proven wrong. No matter how strategies evolve in sc2 it wont become more viewer friendly, it wont have sick micro or macro moments and all the other things that make sc1 such a masterpiece. What we are seeing now is forced e-sport scene without any foundation, which is hanging only on one major tourney which is single elimination from start to finish... Without the support of the goverment and Kespa there will be no real sc2 e-sport scene. Many fail to realize this. To think that SC2 will make it big outside Korea is unrealistic. In the end as I mentioned somewhere else in 2-3 years we may be left without bw pro teams and WC3 looking like SC2 scene. Dont see bright future anywhere.
On October 13 2010 05:33 zenMaster wrote: SC2 will die, when Blizzard makes a new RTS. mhahaha. Sad that I tuned into BW around beginning of 2010, maybe I still have a chance watch a full year of PL. SC2 will not last longer than BW, the only reason for their success is the star power they're gaining from ex-BW legends. With Blizzard having control over everything involving SC2, it will not progress over the primitive "e-sports" structure. Top 5 players will make a living off it while the rest starve. Have fun.
I sympathise. I starting playing/watching BW only this year too. Now I'm just saving up enough money so I can travel to Seoul to watch a live game just in case this is the last year of BW.
Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
idk international chess has been around for a few hundred years now.
You're saying that any game, regardless of skill cap or design, will allow for gosu micro given enough time? This is a false statement. People aren't just complaining that the player micro is bad, but the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much.
First you compare chess with esports. I won't argue about that because my english skills are somewhat limited but it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Second you say that "the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much." Such a huge statement surely deserves to be backed by solid evidence. Can you direct me to an relevant thread? I bet that you, like me, may be tired of seeing "pro" gamers a-move big balls of unit into each other. That is not because of bad design. To me that is the consequence of insufficient player skill. I think that they may be lacking apm, or they may be lacking tactical sense. E.g marines vs. banelings, I have never seen a Terran player actually micro individually his marines (actually I saw it only once) in order to avoid banelings. Another example would be Zergling micro. Too often I see uncontroled zerglings running in circles and doing nothing but blocking the path of other units. All in all there are lots of instances when players do not micro properly. Fortunately perfect micro is not yet mandatory but I'm confident that it will become obligatory over time, when players will actually step their game up. I definitely feel that in term of micro we have only seen the emerging tip of the iceberg .
Comparing sc1 to sc2 is like comparing apples to oranges
On October 13 2010 05:20 Ramiel wrote: Also i find it funny how all of these older members / site contributors are getting warned / temp banned in posts, when they are responding to intentionally inflammatory or ignorant posts from new members. How far TL has fallen Now TL is here to please the SC2 crowd, because it is the sc2 crowd that is bringing in the money for the site.
Read those banned comments again. TL champions rationality and reason above all else.
And the same could be said for the obtuse comments of the plethora of low post count noobs.
this is just dumb to say too especially when you have 72 posts. Don't treat someone less just because of their post count, or even if they have an opposition against your ideals. Personally, yes it's sad to see the brood war community go away, because of the game.. but for the people that say that they think sc2 is boring, probably haven't gave it enough of a chance. I know it's tough for people to adjust to change, but the fact of just hating on a game because it is "easy" is dumb. If it is so easy why is the game changing so often and the skill gap getting even larger and it's only been a couple months. I hope BW still sticks around, but it looks like Kespa doesn't want to do anything to save it, and the lack of what they're doing is slowly making this awesome game die in Korea.
On October 13 2010 05:39 Tazza wrote: Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
I'd argue - since I was one of the people arguing that BW has reached that limit, albeit in defence of the game - that there are two ways you can talk about a "strategic boundary". The first, most literal use, is to say that everything that can be done in a game has been done. This is true for... tic-tac-toe, definitely. Minesweeper, maybe. But the number of games you can really say this about is so vanishingly small that it doesn't make sense to assume I used the term that way.
In the sense I'm using it in I mean that we've had demonstrations that everything can be done. Sometimes as cheese, sometimes as a revolution - we've had every unit (except possibly the scout and maybe the infested Terran) used in a serious game now. We've had mech, bio, bio-mech, mech->bio, crazy stuff. Would people stop coming up with new combinations? No. Would people never be forced by new maps to start experimenting again? Of course not. Would new players not have personal idiosyncracies leading to even wilder games? Never. But the basic elements are known (barring another revolutionary discovery akin to muta stacking). Perhaps "tactical boundary" would have been a better term. But I do consider that we've reached some kind of a boundary point (and by "we" I obviously mean the top players), which is where development and longevity can really take off - for your football example, the turning point was the NFL-AFL merger, cementing the NFL's supremacy in American professional sport. But the key was that that merger incorporated a solid foundation in all aspects of the game, which BW now has. I don't know how much of my point is coming across, but I'm at a loss to make it better.
On October 13 2010 05:39 Tazza wrote: Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
Ver said it best.
On September 28 2010 05:46 Ver wrote: SC mapped out? Few innovators/innovations? Are we watching the same games here? The late 2009/2010 season has been one of the most innovative years ever! There's a large amount of exploring left in many of these systems.
For Terran alone (listing general systems, not the absurd amount of variations):
TvZ- Safe 14cc on 2 player maps a dozen different variations of bio -> mech and vice versa with a lot more room for further exploration (this is huge!) Flexible Valkyrie first openings that can transition into many different possibilities A totally new approach vs 2 hatch muta with aggressive marine pushes (changes a lot) 7 Rax (and overlord snipes from it) 4 rax -> triple port wraith 2 rax acad allins 3rd denial vs 3 hatch muta (very unexplored and complex) 2 base allin vs crazy zerg (3 hatch muta to ultra) Revolutionary lategame defense based off of aggressive vessel raids, covering infantry, and massed tanks (probably the biggest change in years along with bio-mech transitions) 12pool Lair with a very different and expansive early/midgame Improvements on overall mech play (several new midgame options) Heavy and consistent Vulture/Valkyrie!? (totally unexplored)
TvP- Many different 3 base timings Many variations in the 2 fact after cc system both from siege expand and from FD 12 Nexus variations and emphasis 1 fact mine double expand in response to 12 Nexus New midgame Carrier transition ideas both before and after arbiters Rax Expand!! (a huge system with tons more exploration but right now there are many variations already)
As long as the pro scene stays alive in courts BW is fine. SC2 is just new (and getting many temporary tournies/players because of this) and people need a break from BW. Give half a year/year and things should be looking better.
On October 13 2010 05:33 zenMaster wrote: SC2 will die, when Blizzard makes a new RTS. mhahaha. Sad that I tuned into BW around beginning of 2010, maybe I still have a chance watch a full year of PL. SC2 will not last longer than BW, the only reason for their success is the star power they're gaining from ex-BW legends. With Blizzard having control over everything involving SC2, it will not progress over the primitive "e-sports" structure. Top 5 players will make a living off it while the rest starve. Have fun.
Except that the entire strategy has changed for activision. Activision decided that massing game sequels is not a good idea for game retention. Blizzard will want to keep sc2 as an esport alive for at least 36 months (which is when the last expansion will probably be out) and probably for another 4-5 years after that. That gives sc2 about an 8-10 year lifespan, which is a really really long time. In 10 years when sc3 comes out, i'm sure everyone will switch to sc3, and that sc2 players will cry about how easy sc3 is compared to sc2....etc etc.
If people don't like sc2, then it will die. If people like it, then it will live. Saying that it won't live just because you prefer the other game makes no difference.
On October 13 2010 05:39 Tazza wrote: Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
I'd argue - since I was one of the people arguing that BW has reached that limit, albeit in defence of the game - that there are two ways you can talk about a "strategic boundary". The first, most literal use, is to say that everything that can be done in a game has been done. This is true for... tic-tac-toe, definitely. Minesweeper, maybe. But the number of games you can really say this about is so vanishingly small that it doesn't make sense to assume I used the term that way.
In the sense I'm using it in I mean that we've had demonstrations that everything can be done. Sometimes as cheese, sometimes as a revolution - we've had every unit (except possibly the scout and maybe the infested Terran) used in a serious game now. We've had mech, bio, bio-mech, mech->bio, crazy stuff. Would people stop coming up with new combinations? No. Would people never be forced by new maps to start experimenting again? Of course not. Would new players not have personal idiosyncracies leading to even wilder games? Never. But the basic elements are known (barring another revolutionary discovery akin to muta stacking). Perhaps "tactical boundary" would have been a better term. But I do consider that we've reached some kind of a boundary point (and by "we" I obviously mean the top players), which is where development and longevity can really take off - for your football example, the turning point was the NFL-AFL merger, cementing the NFL's supremacy in American professional sport. But the key was that that merger incorporated a solid foundation in all aspects of the game, which BW now has. I don't know how much of my point is coming across, but I'm at a loss to make it better.
Yeah, I'm sorry but I didn't really understand what you were saying. I don't really understand the NFL-AFL merger and how this relates to sc1 and sc2, because they were playing the same game, while sc1 and sc2 are different. And you can say that there are a certain number of units you can use in sc1, but there's also the same number of football players in a football game. Also, there are rules about having enough men on the line stuff, which is kind of similar to "laws" in BW so you don't just make 20 medics and attack. However, this doesn't stop players from doing stuff like the medic blinding spell on observers, and stuff, which is creative, kind of like new trick plays in football
why dont all the sc2 lovers just get the fuck out of here and let the bw lovers cry about their loss in peace? and why the fuck does konadora get warned, while all those newbies show absolutely no respect?
im not the nicest guy on tl and i sure wouldve flamed some of the newbies, but the lack of respect, not just for the veterans, but even moreso for bw, just makes me really sad. everyone pretends to be a lurker and having followed bw 10 yrs, but watching a boxer highlight video on youtube is NOT making you that. most of you come here, learn the names of a few current top pros, some of the legends and watch some stuff, but what you PLAY is sc2. you dont know how it is to have grown up with this game, which was and still is so fucking hard to play, so youd appreciate and cheer for every little move a progamer pulls even more, because you know that you NEVER could do that, in no actual game, and most people not even on micromaps lol. i played sc2, i watched it, i really tried to like it, but god is this game boring and unchallenging. its all the same shit over and over again and theres nothing you really need to practice.
in bw you spent 5000hrs on vulture micro maps, even if you didnt play t. you played mutamicro maps, because you wanted to feel like july, raping marines left and right. i know im drifting away from what i initially was trying to say, but theres little sense to this anyhow, so im just walking down the memory lane. bw hooked me as soon as i played it, it just had what sc2 lacks completely and that is PERSONALITY. it just feels like a clone, like all the other rts out there (except for wc3, cant believe im saying this), which just repeated the same old concept over and over again. bw was true beauty and it was sth that has never been there before and, looking at sc2, never will be there again, at least not anytime soon.
i played sc2 in the beta, it felt old already then. i tried out everything. as a bw veteran im just that much better than the general sc2 newb, and i really liked the idea of having an easy time on the ladder, trying out cute shit and laughing my opponent in the face while raping him with stuff which could be compared to the stove in bw. but while it was easy i couldnt pull off anything, there was nothing cute to try out. people started hyping TLO, for what? i couldnt see anything really original in his moves, all he did was converting ancient bw tricks to sc2, which didnt even work out most of the times. then there was this horrible video with chill, hyping stuff like nuking some newb (ill never forgive you that sellout chill).
i dont even know what to say, so i guess ill just keep ranting on till i realized that bw, for which my attention over the years of course decreased, will die for sure and soon. while i didnt watch or play that much anymore, i still love this game. it wasnt just the game, it was the community. i still talk to people i met on bnet 12 years ago, when i was barely a teenager and grew my first pubic hair. so yeah, my rants is emotionally fuelled and probably not even rational, but i dont give a fuck. if you disagree, why not just keep quiet and let me mourn my loss? show some respect, isnt that what you want from "us bw veterans" for your beloved sc2 and its community?
sc2 is good and all but watching brood war is just on a different level of suspense and intensity. the skill in sc2 isn't very high and people can still recover from major mistakes. one small mistake in bw and you lost the game even if that mistake you made happened 10 minutes ago. i knew sc2 would supersede bw but not for at least a year... to think in less than 80 days from sc2's release, bw already has a legitimate chance of dying.
I came to TL because of SC2, and I still hold that SC2 is a great game with an enormous amount of potential not only in Korean eSports, but also over in the West, which has brought me great joy to think about this hobby of mine being more mainstream where I live. That said, only shortly after the announcement of SC2, I pretty much gave up on the game for a while to catch up on BW history and learn more about the game as it stands now. After watching many recent pro matches from both games, I just enjoy BW more, plain and simple. I acknowledge that I got into the BW scene far too late for me to really understand the intricacies of the game or to ever be good at it in any regard, but as it stands, BW flat out requires more skill, is more entertaining to watch, and has a much more devoted standing fan base. Even as a (kinda sorta) SC2 player, this is the worst news I think I've ever heard regarding the eSports scene that I've come to love.
On October 13 2010 06:31 im a roc wrote: I came to TL because of SC2, and I still hold that SC2 is a great game with an enormous amount of potential not only in Korean eSports, but also over in the West, which has brought me great joy to think about this hobby of mine being more mainstream where I live. That said, only shortly after the announcement of SC2, I pretty much gave up on the game for a while to catch up on BW history and learn more about the game as it stands now. After watching many recent pro matches from both games, I just enjoy BW more, plain and simple. I acknowledge that I got into the BW scene far too late for me to really understand the intricacies of the game or to ever be good at it in any regard, but as it stands, BW flat out requires more skill, is more entertaining to watch, and has a much more devoted standing fan base. Even as a (kinda sorta) SC2 player, this is the worst news I think I've ever heard regarding the eSports scene that I've come to love.
On October 13 2010 06:31 im a roc wrote: I came to TL because of SC2, and I still hold that SC2 is a great game with an enormous amount of potential not only in Korean eSports, but also over in the West, which has brought me great joy to think about this hobby of mine being more mainstream where I live. That said, only shortly after the announcement of SC2, I pretty much gave up on the game for a while to catch up on BW history and learn more about the game as it stands now. After watching many recent pro matches from both games, I just enjoy BW more, plain and simple. I acknowledge that I got into the BW scene far too late for me to really understand the intricacies of the game or to ever be good at it in any regard, but as it stands, BW flat out requires more skill, is more entertaining to watch, and has a much more devoted standing fan base. Even as a (kinda sorta) SC2 player, this is the worst news I think I've ever heard regarding the eSports scene that I've come to love.
THIS.
As a long-time BW fan, I am not raging over SC2 creeping into the esports scene or whether it might replace BW. I want the best to happen for both BW and SC2, because I can get to see my old favourite stars like Boxer and Nada make it happen again in SC2 while enjoying the more intricate tactical acuteness of BW.
I am DISGUSTED instead by how Blizzard is trying to kill off BW just to force SC2 up our throats. Just because I enjoy watching BW does not mean I have to sacrifice that to watch another different game entirely, even if it is being forcefully touted as BW's successor. Whatever.
It makes me so SAD that the BW proscene is deteriorating. What happened to rational thinking here, that even veterans of TL are getting warned (or temp banned?) in favor of newer members?
I loved TL for its unique BW identity in the past, and for its wonderful jackpot of information on all players possible. It was a wonderful place for VoD's and live report threads. What is happening to all that now?
Now, TL is becoming more unrecognizable by the day. Slowly, SC2 fills up more of the forums and new members are paying less respect to what made this site successful in the first place: BW.
Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
On October 13 2010 06:33 Manifesto7 wrote: I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
It is a beautiful morning and my bike is ready for a ride. I'm going to work now. And then I have 9 hours to sit and ban people because I don't have to teach today.
On October 13 2010 05:39 Tazza wrote: Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
I'd argue - since I was one of the people arguing that BW has reached that limit, albeit in defence of the game - that there are two ways you can talk about a "strategic boundary". The first, most literal use, is to say that everything that can be done in a game has been done. This is true for... tic-tac-toe, definitely. Minesweeper, maybe. But the number of games you can really say this about is so vanishingly small that it doesn't make sense to assume I used the term that way.
In the sense I'm using it in I mean that we've had demonstrations that everything can be done. Sometimes as cheese, sometimes as a revolution - we've had every unit (except possibly the scout and maybe the infested Terran) used in a serious game now. We've had mech, bio, bio-mech, mech->bio, crazy stuff. Would people stop coming up with new combinations? No. Would people never be forced by new maps to start experimenting again? Of course not. Would new players not have personal idiosyncracies leading to even wilder games? Never. But the basic elements are known (barring another revolutionary discovery akin to muta stacking). Perhaps "tactical boundary" would have been a better term. But I do consider that we've reached some kind of a boundary point (and by "we" I obviously mean the top players), which is where development and longevity can really take off - for your football example, the turning point was the NFL-AFL merger, cementing the NFL's supremacy in American professional sport. But the key was that that merger incorporated a solid foundation in all aspects of the game, which BW now has. I don't know how much of my point is coming across, but I'm at a loss to make it better.
Yeah, I'm sorry but I didn't really understand what you were saying. I don't really understand the NFL-AFL merger and how this relates to sc1 and sc2, because they were playing the same game, while sc1 and sc2 are different. And you can say that there are a certain number of units you can use in sc1, but there's also the same number of football players in a football game. Also, there are rules about having enough men on the line stuff, which is kind of similar to "laws" in BW so you don't just make 20 medics and attack. However, this doesn't stop players from doing stuff like the medic blinding spell on observers, and stuff, which is creative, kind of like new trick plays in football
Alright, let me try to simplify then.
1) I'm an apologist for Brood War. But I don't hate SC2 intrinsically, I just dislike what it's done to the scene. It's taken what could have been a jumping-off point for BW and derailed it. 2) The reason I think BW had reached that point is that it's reached the point where everything has been explored. Not in all possible combinations, not for good and all, not done to death, but almost everything is - individually - a "known quantity" now. 3) What the AFL-NFL merger accomplished was to bring together - forcibly, in some cases - two very different styles of football. The NFL was largely the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" league; the AFL was attracting a different audience through aerial offensive displays, helped in large part by more liberal passing rules as well as the different "culture". Combining the two led to the full fruition of the potential. While I didn't fully flesh it out, BW really reached that spot maybe two years ago, when the "best player" crown was unclear between Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong - as compared to years of Terran domination and then the domination of sAviOr and Jaedong, there appeared to be near parity - anything was viable. And that's continued even today: I'd argue what Kal and free lack compared to Flash and Jaedong is not skill but the so-called "killer instinct".
In short, there are two times in a game's life when "You can do anything!" and win. The first is when it's first brought out - and anything really does mean "anything", because no one knows "how to play the game". The second - which is what Brood War had reached - is when there's a large enough strategic history and knowledge-base to draw on, and even the "new" can be seen as variations on, or having been foreshadowed by, the old.
I should probably stop derailing the thread with my philosophy of games though.
I was a bit late to get in on a lot of SC1's history, but after reading and watching a bunch of VODS, it really stuck to me. I don't really know all the names...or any of that stuff....but jeez....gonna be hard to let go and watch pure SC2 streams....which already make me sleepy.
idk international chess has been around for a few hundred years now.
You're saying that any game, regardless of skill cap or design, will allow for gosu micro given enough time? This is a false statement. People aren't just complaining that the player micro is bad, but the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much.
First you compare chess with esports. I won't argue about that because my english skills are somewhat limited but it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Second you say that "the game is designed so that player micro can only improve so much." Such a huge statement surely deserves to be backed by solid evidence. Can you direct me to an relevant thread? I bet that you, like me, may be tired of seeing "pro" gamers a-move big balls of unit into each other. That is not because of bad design. To me that is the consequence of insufficient player skill. I think that they may be lacking apm, or they may be lacking tactical sense. E.g marines vs. banelings, I have never seen a Terran player actually micro individually his marines (actually I saw it only once) in order to avoid banelings. Another example would be Zergling micro. Too often I see uncontroled zerglings running in circles and doing nothing but blocking the path of other units. All in all there are lots of instances when players do not micro properly. Fortunately perfect micro is not yet mandatory but I'm confident that it will become obligatory over time, when players will actually step their game up. I definitely feel that in term of micro we have only seen the emerging tip of the iceberg .
Comparing sc1 to sc2 is like comparing apples to oranges
Howso? I feel it's an extremely valid comparison. If fact, I can't see how any rational person could justify your comment.
On October 13 2010 05:39 Tazza wrote: Also, what really pisses me off is that people are saying BW has reached its strategic boundaries. IT HAS NOT. Have you seen how tvz is played nowadays? Or how terrans know how to react to 12 nexus now?
This is like saying Football(american) has reached its pinnacle, there is nothing more to do, and it should be replaced by football 2. Remember when all the teams used to just run the ball, and were about running, and stopping the running game? I'm not talking about the period before the forward pass, but after, which is what american football is based on, and has been based on since super bowl 1. And so the teams all just ran the ball, but you know what? Great strategies like the spread offense, the triple option, and things like that were invented. And so is Broodwar, its still evolving.
I'd argue - since I was one of the people arguing that BW has reached that limit, albeit in defence of the game - that there are two ways you can talk about a "strategic boundary". The first, most literal use, is to say that everything that can be done in a game has been done. This is true for... tic-tac-toe, definitely. Minesweeper, maybe. But the number of games you can really say this about is so vanishingly small that it doesn't make sense to assume I used the term that way.
In the sense I'm using it in I mean that we've had demonstrations that everything can be done. Sometimes as cheese, sometimes as a revolution - we've had every unit (except possibly the scout and maybe the infested Terran) used in a serious game now. We've had mech, bio, bio-mech, mech->bio, crazy stuff. Would people stop coming up with new combinations? No. Would people never be forced by new maps to start experimenting again? Of course not. Would new players not have personal idiosyncracies leading to even wilder games? Never. But the basic elements are known (barring another revolutionary discovery akin to muta stacking). Perhaps "tactical boundary" would have been a better term. But I do consider that we've reached some kind of a boundary point (and by "we" I obviously mean the top players), which is where development and longevity can really take off - for your football example, the turning point was the NFL-AFL merger, cementing the NFL's supremacy in American professional sport. But the key was that that merger incorporated a solid foundation in all aspects of the game, which BW now has. I don't know how much of my point is coming across, but I'm at a loss to make it better.
Yeah, I'm sorry but I didn't really understand what you were saying. I don't really understand the NFL-AFL merger and how this relates to sc1 and sc2, because they were playing the same game, while sc1 and sc2 are different. And you can say that there are a certain number of units you can use in sc1, but there's also the same number of football players in a football game. Also, there are rules about having enough men on the line stuff, which is kind of similar to "laws" in BW so you don't just make 20 medics and attack. However, this doesn't stop players from doing stuff like the medic blinding spell on observers, and stuff, which is creative, kind of like new trick plays in football
Alright, let me try to simplify then.
1) I'm an apologist for Brood War. But I don't hate SC2 intrinsically, I just dislike what it's done to the scene. It's taken what could have been a jumping-off point for BW and derailed it. 2) The reason I think BW had reached that point is that it's reached the point where everything has been explored. Not in all possible combinations, not for good and all, not done to death, but almost everything is - individually - a "known quantity" now. 3) What the AFL-NFL merger accomplished was to bring together - forcibly, in some cases - two very different styles of football. The NFL was largely the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" league; the AFL was attracting a different audience through aerial offensive displays, helped in large part by more liberal passing rules as well as the different "culture". Combining the two led to the full fruition of the potential. While I didn't fully flesh it out, BW really reached that spot maybe two years ago, when the "best player" crown was unclear between Bisu, Stork, Flash, and Jaedong - as compared to years of Terran domination and then the domination of sAviOr and Jaedong, there appeared to be near parity - anything was viable. And that's continued even today: I'd argue what Kal and free lack compared to Flash and Jaedong is not skill but the so-called "killer instinct".
In short, there are two times in a game's life when "You can do anything!" and win. The first is when it's first brought out - and anything really does mean "anything", because no one knows "how to play the game". The second - which is what Brood War had reached - is when there's a large enough strategic history and knowledge-base to draw on, and even the "new" can be seen as variations on, or having been foreshadowed by, the old.
I should probably stop derailing the thread with my philosophy of games though.
But see, my point is, you don't know when new stuff will come out. Did we know that the bio into mech play would ever start? Did we know when the spread offense would start? No, back in that time period, people had no idea, just like how we have no idea if the future of football will continue to be more aerial attacks, or change back to the running game. Also, the AFL and NFL, when combined, became great, but we're not combining sc1 and sc2 here, we're killing one off for the other
Wow, I really didn't think that the death of SCBW would be so sudden. I really hope it doesn't die. I enjoy playing SC2 more, but SCBW is so much more entertaining to watch.
However, I'm somewhat excited to hear about some of the older gamers might move to SC2. I feel like they'd be a lot more competitive in the SC2 scene than in SCBW. I'm hoping Reach makes a very manly return.
I really hope the SCBW scene survives long enough for me to still enjoy some epic S-class games.
On October 13 2010 01:55 Nu11 wrote: Just a question, and I do not intend to make anyone angry, please understand that is not my purpose.
I have been a fan of Starcraft since it was born. Starcraft 2 is the evolution of starcraft. It is just as much starcraft and more.. why do so many people not want to accept starcraft 2?
I would just like to know what the reasoning is. Do you not see any potential in the fresh new strategies, of potentially seeing a new boxer born, of seeing new teams, new drama, new upsets and virtually a whole new metagame evolve?
Why does everyone want to stick with Starcraft? I mean, it has a sequel now... in Broodwar are we just going to see no one but jaedong / flash dominate?
I know that you all love broodwar so much. I do too. 10 years of my life partially dedicated to the game. I have been in tears over many games and upsets over the years, I am a relativity new member of TL but the soul and spirit of STARCRAFT is in SC2.
I just found the game to be getting rather stale. It's been a long time. We haven't had anyone creative come along in so long. Every game is so predictable. The best players right now just play cookie cutter every single game because it's perfected. I Personally want to see the evolution again, new strategies, new winners, new faces, familiar faces. Same soul, same experience.
If they can exist side by side... then do it! Broodwar is a classic. But SC2 needs to grow. Korea needs to play it. It is the evolution, the step up of their game.
100% respect to everyone who thinks differently than me. It is your hobby and your choice to, but you should try to open up a bit. There was a time when starcraft never existed. Do you remember how enjoyable it was to discover anew? It can happen again. Legacy can be born again. I personally want to be here to see it happen.
and about the money.. of course. That's the only reason professional starcraft ever existed. Money, no other reason. SC2 is no different.
On October 13 2010 06:20 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: why dont all the sc2 lovers just get the fuck out of here and let the bw lovers cry about their loss in peace? and why the fuck does konadora get warned, while all those newbies show absolutely no respect?
im not the nicest guy on tl and i sure wouldve flamed some of the newbies, but the lack of respect, not just for the veterans, but even moreso for bw, just makes me really sad. everyone pretends to be a lurker and having followed bw 10 yrs, but watching a boxer highlight video on youtube is NOT making you that. most of you come here, learn the names of a few current top pros, some of the legends and watch some stuff, but what you PLAY is sc2. you dont know how it is to have grown up with this game, which was and still is so fucking hard to play, so youd appreciate and cheer for every little move a progamer pulls even more, because you know that you NEVER could do that, in no actual game, and most people not even on micromaps lol. i played sc2, i watched it, i really tried to like it, but god is this game boring and unchallenging. its all the same shit over and over again and theres nothing you really need to practice.
in bw you spent 5000hrs on vulture micro maps, even if you didnt play t. you played mutamicro maps, because you wanted to feel like july, raping marines left and right. i know im drifting away from what i initially was trying to say, but theres little sense to this anyhow, so im just walking down the memory lane. bw hooked me as soon as i played it, it just had what sc2 lacks completely and that is PERSONALITY. it just feels like a clone, like all the other rts out there (except for wc3, cant believe im saying this), which just repeated the same old concept over and over again. bw was true beauty and it was sth that has never been there before and, looking at sc2, never will be there again, at least not anytime soon.
i played sc2 in the beta, it felt old already then. i tried out everything. as a bw veteran im just that much better than the general sc2 newb, and i really liked the idea of having an easy time on the ladder, trying out cute shit and laughing my opponent in the face while raping him with stuff which could be compared to the stove in bw. but while it was easy i couldnt pull off anything, there was nothing cute to try out. people started hyping TLO, for what? i couldnt see anything really original in his moves, all he did was converting ancient bw tricks to sc2, which didnt even work out most of the times. then there was this horrible video with chill, hyping stuff like nuking some newb (ill never forgive you that sellout chill).
i dont even know what to say, so i guess ill just keep ranting on till i realized that bw, for which my attention over the years of course decreased, will die for sure and soon. while i didnt watch or play that much anymore, i still love this game. it wasnt just the game, it was the community. i still talk to people i met on bnet 12 years ago, when i was barely a teenager and grew my first pubic hair. so yeah, my rants is emotionally fuelled and probably not even rational, but i dont give a fuck. if you disagree, why not just keep quiet and let me mourn my loss? show some respect, isnt that what you want from "us bw veterans" for your beloved sc2 and its community?
On October 13 2010 06:20 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: why dont all the sc2 lovers just get the fuck out of here and let the bw lovers cry about their loss in peace? and why the fuck does konadora get warned, while all those newbies show absolutely no respect?
im not the nicest guy on tl and i sure wouldve flamed some of the newbies, but the lack of respect, not just for the veterans, but even moreso for bw, just makes me really sad. everyone pretends to be a lurker and having followed bw 10 yrs, but watching a boxer highlight video on youtube is NOT making you that. most of you come here, learn the names of a few current top pros, some of the legends and watch some stuff, but what you PLAY is sc2. you dont know how it is to have grown up with this game, which was and still is so fucking hard to play, so youd appreciate and cheer for every little move a progamer pulls even more, because you know that you NEVER could do that, in no actual game, and most people not even on micromaps lol. i played sc2, i watched it, i really tried to like it, but god is this game boring and unchallenging. its all the same shit over and over again and theres nothing you really need to practice.
in bw you spent 5000hrs on vulture micro maps, even if you didnt play t. you played mutamicro maps, because you wanted to feel like july, raping marines left and right. i know im drifting away from what i initially was trying to say, but theres little sense to this anyhow, so im just walking down the memory lane. bw hooked me as soon as i played it, it just had what sc2 lacks completely and that is PERSONALITY. it just feels like a clone, like all the other rts out there (except for wc3, cant believe im saying this), which just repeated the same old concept over and over again. bw was true beauty and it was sth that has never been there before and, looking at sc2, never will be there again, at least not anytime soon.
i played sc2 in the beta, it felt old already then. i tried out everything. as a bw veteran im just that much better than the general sc2 newb, and i really liked the idea of having an easy time on the ladder, trying out cute shit and laughing my opponent in the face while raping him with stuff which could be compared to the stove in bw. but while it was easy i couldnt pull off anything, there was nothing cute to try out. people started hyping TLO, for what? i couldnt see anything really original in his moves, all he did was converting ancient bw tricks to sc2, which didnt even work out most of the times. then there was this horrible video with chill, hyping stuff like nuking some newb (ill never forgive you that sellout chill).
i dont even know what to say, so i guess ill just keep ranting on till i realized that bw, for which my attention over the years of course decreased, will die for sure and soon. while i didnt watch or play that much anymore, i still love this game. it wasnt just the game, it was the community. i still talk to people i met on bnet 12 years ago, when i was barely a teenager and grew my first pubic hair. so yeah, my rants is emotionally fuelled and probably not even rational, but i dont give a fuck. if you disagree, why not just keep quiet and let me mourn my loss? show some respect, isnt that what you want from "us bw veterans" for your beloved sc2 and its community?
Because despite being misguided, misinformed, and disrespectful, those posters bothered to type out coherent thoughts relevant to the discussion.
As I recall, shitty one-liners are not ok, regardless of who you are. Especially if it's simply attacking someone based on their join date.
TBH if it were a newbie and not kona who made that statement, it probably would have been a 2-day and not a warning.
On October 13 2010 06:20 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: why dont all the sc2 lovers just get the fuck out of here and let the bw lovers cry about their loss in peace? and why the fuck does konadora get warned, while all those newbies show absolutely no respect?
im not the nicest guy on tl and i sure wouldve flamed some of the newbies, but the lack of respect, not just for the veterans, but even moreso for bw, just makes me really sad. everyone pretends to be a lurker and having followed bw 10 yrs, but watching a boxer highlight video on youtube is NOT making you that. most of you come here, learn the names of a few current top pros, some of the legends and watch some stuff, but what you PLAY is sc2. you dont know how it is to have grown up with this game, which was and still is so fucking hard to play, so youd appreciate and cheer for every little move a progamer pulls even more, because you know that you NEVER could do that, in no actual game, and most people not even on micromaps lol. i played sc2, i watched it, i really tried to like it, but god is this game boring and unchallenging. its all the same shit over and over again and theres nothing you really need to practice.
in bw you spent 5000hrs on vulture micro maps, even if you didnt play t. you played mutamicro maps, because you wanted to feel like july, raping marines left and right. i know im drifting away from what i initially was trying to say, but theres little sense to this anyhow, so im just walking down the memory lane. bw hooked me as soon as i played it, it just had what sc2 lacks completely and that is PERSONALITY. it just feels like a clone, like all the other rts out there (except for wc3, cant believe im saying this), which just repeated the same old concept over and over again. bw was true beauty and it was sth that has never been there before and, looking at sc2, never will be there again, at least not anytime soon.
i played sc2 in the beta, it felt old already then. i tried out everything. as a bw veteran im just that much better than the general sc2 newb, and i really liked the idea of having an easy time on the ladder, trying out cute shit and laughing my opponent in the face while raping him with stuff which could be compared to the stove in bw. but while it was easy i couldnt pull off anything, there was nothing cute to try out. people started hyping TLO, for what? i couldnt see anything really original in his moves, all he did was converting ancient bw tricks to sc2, which didnt even work out most of the times. then there was this horrible video with chill, hyping stuff like nuking some newb (ill never forgive you that sellout chill).
i dont even know what to say, so i guess ill just keep ranting on till i realized that bw, for which my attention over the years of course decreased, will die for sure and soon. while i didnt watch or play that much anymore, i still love this game. it wasnt just the game, it was the community. i still talk to people i met on bnet 12 years ago, when i was barely a teenager and grew my first pubic hair. so yeah, my rants is emotionally fuelled and probably not even rational, but i dont give a fuck. if you disagree, why not just keep quiet and let me mourn my loss? show some respect, isnt that what you want from "us bw veterans" for your beloved sc2 and its community?
Because this isn't bad news for some people.
Doesn't mean those people need to come here and argue. I don't see your logic there.
On October 13 2010 07:37 garbanzo wrote: Wow, I really didn't think that the death of SCBW would be so sudden. I really hope it doesn't die. I enjoy playing SC2 more, but SCBW is so much more entertaining to watch.
However, I'm somewhat excited to hear about some of the older gamers might move to SC2. I feel like they'd be a lot more competitive in the SC2 scene than in SCBW. I'm hoping Reach makes a very manly return.
I really hope the SCBW scene survives long enough for me to still enjoy some epic S-class games.
Also. Stop saying that SCBW is dying. I would argue that the lifespan of BW has still yet to be decided. Any time a sequel comes out, there's bound to be a bunch of people who play the next one. I know, because I'm one of the players.I also happen to become one of those players that stopped playing SC2 because I got a little bit bored.
True, the pros are leaving, but I don't think that's enough to say that a game dies. A game's "life" should be subjective on one's own experience with the game.
For example, the Halo Franchise has been "dead" to me for a long time since I've always come back to Starcraft. Doesn't mean Halo's dead. It's just dead...to me.
I don't like it when a game is generalized into a large package and then categorized as "dead" as soon as the big dogs leave the house. That shouldn't be the case. If you're still enjoying the game and playing competitively on ICCup (like me! :D), then SC1 shouldn't be dead for you.
Sure you won't get any new games, but have you honestly watched all of the VODS? Probably not. And even if you did, there's bound to be things that you didn't spot, games that you weren't too clear on. The memories remain, and as far as I'm concerned, BW has yet to die.
I knew it. Sc2 would kill BW. And for some of us that is really hard to deal with. Our Mozart is dead, and we don't care that much for J. Bieber ("yet").
But please, stop trying to convince us.
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
That's all I have to say, now I'm going to embrace my best friend, the small VOD thread, like never before....
Doesn't mean those people need to come here and argue. I don't see your logic there.
Likewise, this doesn't mean BW fans need to bitch about SC2 and hate on SC2 players.
Rumors provoke speculation, and a lot of people are excited to see current BW pros playing SC2.
Right, but what I'm saying is that regardless of our constant bickering, the idea is that BW players are angry that SC2 players are coming in and purposely putting on provocative statements about BW's death.
And while I don't speak on behalf of all BW fans, I don't think saying that SC2 is "boring" is bitching about SC2. I also don't think we "hate" SC2 players.
In fact, most of the posts here merely talk about how they dislike how the arrival of SC2 and Blizzard's legal actions are thrusting SC2 down the throats of everybody, and it's just bad for the community in general.
I won't compare bw to sc2, bw has filled many years of my life since '99 and sc2 is a new game that I want to be good at.
But what I will do is comparing bw forumers to sc2 forumers:
Bw forumers can't accept the reality and even a remote possibility that A PERSON, A GAMER can love 2 games, you guys need to face it that X player can be sad of bw's slow death, and happy about new developments in sc2. I'm so sad It's getting harder and harder to watch bw pro-scene witch I enjoy in incredible amount, I didn't miss any MSL/OSL/Proleague matches this year and this is just this year but on the other hand, I am really excited having NaDa, boxer in GSL.
I am surfing TL for a long time , both fanboy of bw and sc2 forums but this "gamist" attitude which bw forumers have is hurting the community. and oh, sc2 players are not the reason bw is dying, it is a company. I understand your anger but please stop decharging that anger with humiliating or bullying sc2 players.
On October 13 2010 08:26 Borked wrote: I won't compare bw to sc2, bw has filled many years of my life since '99 and sc2 is a new game that I want to be good at.
But what I will do is comparing bw forumers to sc2 forumers:
Bw forumers can't accept the reality and even a remote possibility that A PERSON, A GAMER can love 2 games, you guys need to face it that X player can be sad of bw's slow death, and happy about new developments in sc2.
I am surfing TL for a long time , both fanboy of bw and sc2 forums but this "gamist" attitude which bw forumers have is hurting the community. and oh, sc2 players are not the reason bw is dying, it is a company. I understand your anger but please stop decharging that anger with humiliating or bullying sc2 players.
I like how in that entire post, you fail to recognize that BW and SC2 forumers are the same people.
And then I like how even under the assumption that they're different, you don't mention the qualifties of SC2 forumers. You only imply that they're nice mannered and awesome.
Clearly you're being an objective speaker on the issue.
Doesn't mean those people need to come here and argue. I don't see your logic there.
Likewise, this doesn't mean BW fans need to bitch about SC2 and hate on SC2 players.
Rumors provoke speculation, and a lot of people are excited to see current BW pros playing SC2.
Right, but what I'm saying is that regardless of our constant bickering, the idea is that BW players are angry that SC2 players are coming in and purposely putting on provocative statements about BW's death.
And while I don't speak on behalf of all BW fans, I don't think saying that SC2 is "boring" is bitching about SC2. I also don't think we "hate" SC2 players.
In fact, most of the posts here merely talk about how they dislike how the arrival of SC2 and Blizzard's legal actions are thrusting SC2 down the throats of everybody, and it's just bad for the community in general.
BW players seem pretty interested on whether or not BW is dying as well. I think plenty of people are alright with it, but the diehards won't give it up. SC2 fans can accept BW going away, BW only fans can't.
So yes, the hostility goes both ways, people who are here exclusively for SC2 (i.e. recent registrations) do get targeted by older members. I got called a 4channer for being excited that Boxer was moving to SC2 (true story)
EDIT: If you still like BW, the fact that it loses the money/fame/glory shouldn't really matter.
On October 13 2010 08:26 Borked wrote: I won't compare bw to sc2, bw has filled many years of my life since '99 and sc2 is a new game that I want to be good at.
But what I will do is comparing bw forumers to sc2 forumers:
Bw forumers can't accept the reality and even a remote possibility that A PERSON, A GAMER can love 2 games, you guys need to face it that X player can be sad of bw's slow death, and happy about new developments in sc2.
I am surfing TL for a long time , both fanboy of bw and sc2 forums but this "gamist" attitude which bw forumers have is hurting the community. and oh, sc2 players are not the reason bw is dying, it is a company. I understand your anger but please stop decharging that anger with humiliating or bullying sc2 players.
I like how in that entire post, you fail to recognize that BW and SC2 forumers are the same people.
And then I like how even under the assumption that they're different, you don't mention the qualifties of SC2 forumers. You only imply that they're nice mannered and awesome.
Clearly you're being an objective speaker on the issue.
They were same ppl in the early stage of beta, but each day ppl separated. So yes, you can call it a failure but my opinions is , at the moment bw and sc2 forumers are mostly different people. Especially after release of sc2 there are tons of new players just learned about TL.net.
and you immediately proved my point with your answer to my post.
Nobody would do that if they didn't come into BW threads and shit it up with things like "im so glad bw is dead! " That's just disrespectful regardless of what the subject matter is, it's not even an issue of BW vs. SC2. I don't see SC2 players who have made coherent posts about why they like SC2 more getting bashed.
Didn't know things were so sour for MBC Heroes. I'm most interested in who this progamer is that will supposedly be getting the largest guaranteed salary for SC2 right now.
On October 13 2010 08:26 Borked wrote: I won't compare bw to sc2, bw has filled many years of my life since '99 and sc2 is a new game that I want to be good at.
But what I will do is comparing bw forumers to sc2 forumers:
Bw forumers can't accept the reality and even a remote possibility that A PERSON, A GAMER can love 2 games, you guys need to face it that X player can be sad of bw's slow death, and happy about new developments in sc2.
I am surfing TL for a long time , both fanboy of bw and sc2 forums but this "gamist" attitude which bw forumers have is hurting the community. and oh, sc2 players are not the reason bw is dying, it is a company. I understand your anger but please stop decharging that anger with humiliating or bullying sc2 players.
I like how in that entire post, you fail to recognize that BW and SC2 forumers are the same people.
And then I like how even under the assumption that they're different, you don't mention the qualifties of SC2 forumers. You only imply that they're nice mannered and awesome.
Clearly you're being an objective speaker on the issue.
They were same ppl in the early stage of beta, but each day ppl separated. So yes, you can call it a failure but my opinions is , at the moment bw and sc2 forumers are mostly different people.
and you immediately proved my point with your answer to my post.
Anyway, I am sad that broodwar is dying in Korea.
Me posting that you're not being objective doesn't prove anything. I'm just saying you're not being fair to both sides by providing an incredibly flawed perspective.
I haven't even chosen a side in that post. >.>
But anyway....I think this thread gives me a really good idea.
On October 13 2010 08:32 Offhand wrote: So yes, the hostility goes both ways, people who are here exclusively for SC2 (i.e. recent registrations) do get targeted by older members. I got called a 4channer for being excited that Boxer was moving to SC2 (true story)
EDIT: If you still like BW, the fact that it loses the money/fame/glory shouldn't really matter.
You got called a 4channer for acting like a general asshole with your post(s). Being happy for Boxer is a far cry from what you posted.
Also, it's not about BW losing money/fame/glory, it's about not being watch the pros play it at all.
On October 13 2010 08:16 Zergneedsfood wrote: Right, but what I'm saying is that regardless of our constant bickering, the idea is that BW players are angry that SC2 players are coming in and purposely putting on provocative statements about BW's death.
The hate works both ways. Just as many people come into the BW forums to say SC1 players should move on as do people in the SC2 forums say that SC2 sucks. People are generally just limited in their viewpoint because they primarily browse one forum or another and so they get the false impression that one side is more antagonistic than another.
On October 13 2010 08:16 Zergneedsfood wrote: And while I don't speak on behalf of all BW fans, I don't think saying that SC2 is "boring" is bitching about SC2. I also don't think we "hate" SC2 players.
Again, this happens in every debate on TL (Flash vs Jaedong, SKT fans vs SKT haters, etc.). Moderate views from one side feel like the extreme views from the other are wronging them when they don't stop to think that the extremists on the same side of the fence are doing the same damn thing. This is how these arguments go in circles.
On October 13 2010 08:16 Zergneedsfood wrote: In fact, most of the posts here merely talk about how they dislike how the arrival of SC2 and Blizzard's legal actions are thrusting SC2 down the throats of everybody, and it's just bad for the community in general.
Except in some cases, that link is tangential at best. I'm sure plenty of progamers/teams would have quit for SC2, Kespa drama or not. Surely not all of them, but at least a fair share of it was not Blizzard-driven.
Spectator numbers were declining noticeably before SC2 became dominant in the public eye. Not all of BW's woes can be attributed to SC2.
It is sad to see Broodwar die, but I stopped watching it and playing it so it wont effect my life whatsoever. You would think this would make me happy because it means more success for sc2, but I am still sad.
On August 08 2010 17:19 Rekrul wrote: ...Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Also, SC2/GOMTV will be huge, whether you like their commentators or not. And most importantly, SC2 Esports will be huge outside of Korea 100%...this is the game that everyone has been waiting for to make an esport. If it becomes huge outside of Korea that means more big korean companies will want to get involved and the game will eventually become mainstream as it creeps into Korea. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before ... Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2...
Honestly, I didn't even follow GSL1. I watched a few VODs but they put me to sleep. SC2 is fun to play, and it's fun to follow the community, but it's not fun to actually watch. That's probably the only thing keeping me from burning out - not watching the actual game.
On October 13 2010 09:16 Mastermind wrote: It is sad to see Broodwar die, but I stopped watching it and playing it so it wont effect my life whatsoever. You would think this would make me happy because it means more success for sc2, but I am still sad.
I agree. I love BW to death and I'm sad to see it go, but honestly it doesn't affect me at all. I still feel a huge emotional attachment to it, but...
On October 13 2010 10:55 MrMotionPicture wrote: Why can't we all live together in a wonderful SC1 and SC2 world? :[
Because there are a lot of people who are thinking the two are mutually exclusive.
Which is false.
They are mutually exclusive in that the rise of SC2 is indirectly leading to the death of BW due to Blizzard's handling of it all. People aren't upset because BW was dying. People know it has to end sometime. It was a magical ride but everyone knew that it was going to turn back into a pumpkin soon or later. People are upset that Blizzard is trying to kill the BW scene and SC2 is helping them do that. That's why the vets are upset about the whole situation. That being said, I'mma pour out some Jameson for SC tonight.
Man they just need to start proleague already, this has been the only topic to talk about for a month now. Everything appears worse than it actually is because we haven't been able to enjoy BW, cause ya know, it's offseason.
I think I didn't voice my opinion properly. I *LOVE* BW and of course if it were my decision I'd choose for it to never die in Esports and always be huge in both Korea and the foreign scene. My point was that all things eventually come to an end. Of course it stinks that BW is phasing out a lot faster than we all expected, but we all knew that someday it would come. The average life of a competitive video game is lucky to make it to a year or two. The fact that BW has lasted 10 years strong is amazing in itself. What I was trying to say is that if there is a game that will transition from BW, at least it is SC2. I mean, look at SC2 as it is already. It's been out less than 6 months and already has huge tournaments associated with it. Teams are being created, the game growing and being patched to fit competitive needs. Sure it will take some time, but the potential is definitely there. In another 10 years we may all be looking back at SC2 and wish it wasn't being phased out by another game.
Life forces uncomfortable and unpleasant changes on us and the post that I quoted before stated just that. Why not embrace what we have going for us now and try to turn it into the wonderful amazing game that BW was? That's all.
On October 13 2010 13:22 Kenny wrote: I think I didn't voice my opinion properly. I *LOVE* BW and of course if it were my decision I'd choose for it to never die in Esports and always be huge in both Korea and the foreign scene. My point was that all things eventually come to an end. Of course it stinks that BW is phasing out a lot faster than we all expected, but we all knew that someday it would come. The average life of a competitive video game is lucky to make it to a year or two. The fact that BW has lasted 10 years strong is amazing in itself. What I was trying to say is that if there is a game that will transition from BW, at least it is SC2. I mean, look at SC2 as it is already. It's been out less than 6 months and already has huge tournaments associated with it. Teams are being created, the game growing and being patched to fit competitive needs. Sure it will take some time, but the potential is definitely there. In another 10 years we may all be looking back at SC2 and wish it wasn't being phased out by another game.
Life forces uncomfortable and unpleasant changes on us and the post that I quoted before stated just that. Why not embrace what we have going for us now and try to turn it into the wonderful amazing game that BW was? That's all.
That's something I have issue with actually. Broodwar hasn't got a balancing patch in years, which means the players have to think up how to beat something instead of hoping Blizzard will nerf something. Constant patching would actually make the game evolve slower. It needs to hit a stable point, and then stop. No more balance patches. Let players work out how to beat things on their own.
Something else, throughout this whole thread I see people saying not to worry, this is just a cycle. We'll have SC3 come out and repeat all this all over again. It HAS to happen.
No it doesn't. If every ten years a new game with new balance, new units, new tricks, new strats, new builds comes out and obsoletes at least half of the knowledge gained in the previous game over the last 10 years, how are we ever going to reach the pinnacle of e-sports? BroodWar is still evolving, it hasn't hit it's limit. Why kill it off before it gets stale? If we keep switching games, sure it won't ever get stale, but we'll never reach the highest level of play we could have if we hadn't moved on before the last game was dead.
On October 13 2010 13:22 Kenny wrote: I think I didn't voice my opinion properly. I *LOVE* BW and of course if it were my decision I'd choose for it to never die in Esports and always be huge in both Korea and the foreign scene. My point was that all things eventually come to an end. Of course it stinks that BW is phasing out a lot faster than we all expected, but we all knew that someday it would come. The average life of a competitive video game is lucky to make it to a year or two. The fact that BW has lasted 10 years strong is amazing in itself. What I was trying to say is that if there is a game that will transition from BW, at least it is SC2. I mean, look at SC2 as it is already. It's been out less than 6 months and already has huge tournaments associated with it. Teams are being created, the game growing and being patched to fit competitive needs. Sure it will take some time, but the potential is definitely there. In another 10 years we may all be looking back at SC2 and wish it wasn't being phased out by another game.
Life forces uncomfortable and unpleasant changes on us and the post that I quoted before stated just that. Why not embrace what we have going for us now and try to turn it into the wonderful amazing game that BW was? That's all.
That's something I have issue with actually. Broodwar hasn't got a balancing patch in years, which means the players have to think up how to beat something instead of hoping Blizzard will nerf something. Constant patching would actually make the game evolve slower. It needs to hit a stable point, and then stop. No more balance patches. Let players work out how to beat things on their own.
Something else, throughout this whole thread I see people saying not to worry, this is just a cycle. We'll have SC3 come out and repeat all this all over again. It HAS to happen.
No it doesn't. If every ten years a new game with new balance, new units, new tricks, new strats, new builds comes out and obsoletes at least half of the knowledge gained in the previous game over the last 10 years, how are we ever going to reach the pinnacle of e-sports? BroodWar is still evolving, it hasn't hit it's limit. Why kill it off before it gets stale? If we keep switching games, sure it won't ever get stale, but we'll never reach the highest level of play we could have if we hadn't moved on before the last game was dead.
I think something to note here, is that personally, I don't think any player will hit either skillcap, for BW, or Starcraft 2. There's just too many opportunities for players to screw up even the slightest in a game, that will lead to a loss. You can always get to a higher level of play.
That said, I think enough lessons of the past can be expanded upon that SC2 will immediately jump to a higher level of play, as soon as more talented players start getting involved. It might take a couple years, but that's not really a big deal when you consider how long BW has been around.
I say this with as much respect as I can give to BW, I really don't want to challenge the glory that is BW. I'm just trying to point out what I think on the subject that you've discussed.
I like how you guys are saying to look at SC2 how great it is doing and how many tournaments there are in it and how it is the real e-sport. Unfortunately all of this is not thank to the game being so good and actually evolved to this stage, but it is all artificially made and forced. I don't know about any game that has ever became so huge regarding e-sports right after it's release (hell even during it's freakin BETA stage) and it really doesn't make sense if you look at it. Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. All that SC2 has achieved yet is that it is called Starcraft 2. And this not-achieved anything game has literally killed the best game ever - doesn't make sense to me. But nothing where money is involved makes sense...
K, could you tell me when exactly Blizzard started/forced all this "open" XXX Tournaments/Cups and all this? You got a point with the GSL, but everything else?
Face it: Many, many, many people love SC2. There is a huge interest in Tournaments by casuals and a bit more serious players a like.
It's allready more important in most parts of the World than SC/BW ever was and no really big evil company is to blame for that, the interest of players around the globe is to blame for that.
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
Yes. However I already held that opinion before SC2 was announced, i got more optimistic about SC2 when it came out, played it for the beta and enjoyed, but I'm back to that opinion again.
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
yeah i had a feeling something bad would happen to broodwar. well i didn't expect it to be all this dramatic negotiations and crazy shit, but i was just expecting everyone around the world to go crazy over a new blizz game and it would just overshadow the old one with "shitty graphics"..
On October 13 2010 09:39 c.Deadly wrote: Brood War will live forever in my heart, and on my hard drive. But it is extremely sad to see the proleague falling apart, and no MSL? =[
I dug up some old Rekrul posts (sorry to bring this up in your own blog, Milkis)
On August 08 2010 17:19 Rekrul wrote: ...Koreans are totally fad-oriented. So what if it wasn't what they hoped and the fad began as soon as the game out, that doesn't mean it still can't happen later. Also, SC2/GOMTV will be huge, whether you like their commentators or not. And most importantly, SC2 Esports will be huge outside of Korea 100%...this is the game that everyone has been waiting for to make an esport. If it becomes huge outside of Korea that means more big korean companies will want to get involved and the game will eventually become mainstream as it creeps into Korea. If there's one thing I've learned about Koreans is they have their national pride and everyone can instantly start loving something they had no previous knowledge of before ... Or imagine Blizzard getting some key names like Boxer to abandon ties to KESPA and go on a massive advertising campaign for SC2...
Honestly, I didn't even follow GSL1. I watched a few VODs but they put me to sleep. SC2 is fun to play, and it's fun to follow the community, but it's not fun to actually watch. That's probably the only thing keeping me from burning out - not watching the actual game.
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
I'm going to disagree with others and say no.
I'm under no delusions thinking SC1 would be able to continue garnering interest. It's pretty obvious that the scene has been shrinking since its 2004-2005 levels. As a spectator-sport, the game eventually was going to live out its lifespan, and viewer-ship would drop under levels where sponsors would deem it financially worthwhile to support.
I wish SC2 hadn't come out so soon (as it's pretty clear that BW's natural lifespan would have continued for quite some time), but IMO it still had to happen eventually.
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
Yes.
Id love nothing more than sc2 never existing and BW still being alive today.. nothing more..
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
Yes.
Id love nothing more than sc2 never existing and BW still being alive today.. nothing more..
What about SC2 being successful in the west and BW remaining untouched in Korea?
On October 13 2010 19:48 NightRapier wrote: I have to wonder what some people would answer to a very simple question: would you prefer Blizzard never released a sequel?
Yes.
Id love nothing more than sc2 never existing and BW still being alive today.. nothing more..
What about SC2 being successful in the west and BW remaining untouched in Korea?
It's a sad day when the rest of the world settles for some kind of kiddie version of a real mans game
I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I believe the correct title of the post would be "The rumor mill is spinning fast". Brood war has had a good life, and everything that has a beginning has an end. It may be time to live and let die.
No it doesn't. If every ten years a new game with new balance, new units, new tricks, new strats, new builds comes out and obsoletes at least half of the knowledge gained in the previous game over the last 10 years, how are we ever going to reach the pinnacle of e-sports? BroodWar is still evolving, it hasn't hit it's limit. Why kill it off before it gets stale? If we keep switching games, sure it won't ever get stale, but we'll never reach the highest level of play we could have if we hadn't moved on before the last game was dead.
So true.
Things which I wanted to see: -The 'answer' to bio-mech TvZ -more lategame ZvZ -queens~!
Yo I'm just going through all of these comments, and I have to point out these sentences: "Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. "
Hahaha, hahahaha hahahahahhaah
Are you referring to the trajectory of starcraft: Brood War? The very , very very first game to ever become an e-sport? Is this the game you are referring to when you say "normally" Well I would like to point out that starcraft : brood war was the first game to ever take that trajectory. So, no, it is not normal. And what has starcraft 2 done to deserve the attention that it is getting? How about this?
How about this. How about the fact that millions of people put close to 50 billion hours of gameplay into a single game, and the single benefactor from all of that learning was blizzard entertainment, which THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID IT'S JOB BY LISTENING TO THE NEEDS AND CONCERNS OF MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS OF GAMERS AND PUT THEIR EFFORTS INTO A SINGLE COLLABERATION CALLED STARCRAFT 2 HOW ABOUT THAT
Also: It should be mentioned that starcraft 1 is more than a decade old, and no video game is going to survive longer than this. This game came out around the time of Super Mario Bros from Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Are you still playing Super Mario Bros? Seriously bro? I don't care how great a game is, or whether or not it has been "fully explored" Are you serious dude? Are you still playing Grand Theft Auto for the original Playstation™ because you havent fully explored everything it has to offer?
As previous posters have mentioned, there is no possible way in eternity that SC:BW is going to be completely fleshed out, because this is a game that starts by requiring you have absolute control over 15 things at one time! And then you are supposed to have absolute control over 200 units 12 minutes later. I hate to tell you this but even someone with 1,500 APM can't fully flesh out Brood War for everything it's capable of. At some point you have to move on.
I played starcraft brood war when I was a teenager. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I'm 32 years old now and forgive me and thousands upon thousands of other players when I say that starcraft 1 sucks now, I tried to play a game the other day with my friends and we all stopped playing before the game was even done. After playing starcraft 2 for this long, and getting used to properly pathing units, good graphics, great sound, etc, we're all sitting there trying to put 80 zerglings into 6 control groups, and it's just like fuck this. We quit before the game was even over.
Starcraft 1 has run it's course, if you want teamliquid to still exist, if you care at all about this site, you'll help it embrace starcraft 2, if you don't, you're going to help teamliquid.net become a backwater destination for 40 year old creeps who still play a 20 year old game, and who find it hard to consistantly get reservations for one at chucke cheeses
On October 15 2010 07:53 opl3sa wrote: Yo I'm just going through all of these comments, and I have to point out these sentences: "Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. "
Hahaha, hahahaha hahahahahhaah
Are you referring to the trajectory of starcraft: Brood War? The very , very very first game to ever become an e-sport? Is this the game you are referring to when you say "normally" Well I would like to point out that starcraft : brood war was the first game to ever take that trajectory. So, no, it is not normal. And what has starcraft 2 done to deserve the attention that it is getting? How about this?
How about this. How about the fact that millions of people put close to 50 billion hours of gameplay into a single game, and the single benefactor from all of that learning was blizzard entertainment, which THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID IT'S JOB BY LISTENING TO THE NEEDS AND CONCERNS OF MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS OF GAMERS AND PUT THEIR EFFORTS INTO A SINGLE COLLABERATION CALLED STARCRAFT 2 HOW ABOUT THAT
Also: It should be mentioned that starcraft 1 is more than a decade old, and no video game is going to survive longer than this. This game came out around the time of Super Mario Bros from Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Are you still playing Super Mario Bros? Seriously bro? I don't care how great a game is, or whether or not it has been "fully explored" Are you serious dude? Are you still playing Grand Theft Auto for the original Playstation™ because you havent fully explored everything it has to offer?
As previous posters have mentioned, there is no possible way in eternity that SC:BW is going to be completely fleshed out, because this is a game that starts by requiring you have absolute control over 15 things at one time! And then you are supposed to have absolute control over 200 units 12 minutes later. I hate to tell you this but even someone with 1,500 APM can't fully flesh out Brood War for everything it's capable of. At some point you have to move on.
I played starcraft brood war when I was a teenager. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I'm 32 years old now and forgive me and thousands upon thousands of other players when I say that starcraft 1 sucks now, I tried to play a game the other day with my friends and we all stopped playing before the game was even done. After playing starcraft 2 for this long, and getting used to properly pathing units, good graphics, great sound, etc, we're all sitting there trying to put 80 zerglings into 6 control groups, and it's just like fuck this. We quit before the game was even over.
Starcraft 1 has run it's course, if you want teamliquid to still exist, if you care at all about this site, you'll help it embrace starcraft 2, if you don't, you're going to help teamliquid.net become a backwater destination for 40 year old creeps who still play a 20 year old game, and who find it hard to consistantly get reservations for one at chucke cheeses
On October 15 2010 07:53 opl3sa wrote: Yo I'm just going through all of these comments, and I have to point out these sentences: "Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. "
Hahaha, hahahaha hahahahahhaah
Are you referring to the trajectory of starcraft: Brood War? The very , very very first game to ever become an e-sport? Is this the game you are referring to when you say "normally" Well I would like to point out that starcraft : brood war was the first game to ever take that trajectory. So, no, it is not normal. And what has starcraft 2 done to deserve the attention that it is getting? How about this?
How about this. How about the fact that millions of people put close to 50 billion hours of gameplay into a single game, and the single benefactor from all of that learning was blizzard entertainment, which THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID IT'S JOB BY LISTENING TO THE NEEDS AND CONCERNS OF MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS OF GAMERS AND PUT THEIR EFFORTS INTO A SINGLE COLLABERATION CALLED STARCRAFT 2 HOW ABOUT THAT
Also: It should be mentioned that starcraft 1 is more than a decade old, and no video game is going to survive longer than this. This game came out around the time of Super Mario Bros from Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Are you still playing Super Mario Bros? Seriously bro? I don't care how great a game is, or whether or not it has been "fully explored" Are you serious dude? Are you still playing Grand Theft Auto for the original Playstation™ because you havent fully explored everything it has to offer?
As previous posters have mentioned, there is no possible way in eternity that SC:BW is going to be completely fleshed out, because this is a game that starts by requiring you have absolute control over 15 things at one time! And then you are supposed to have absolute control over 200 units 12 minutes later. I hate to tell you this but even someone with 1,500 APM can't fully flesh out Brood War for everything it's capable of. At some point you have to move on.
I played starcraft brood war when I was a teenager. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I'm 32 years old now and forgive me and thousands upon thousands of other players when I say that starcraft 1 sucks now, I tried to play a game the other day with my friends and we all stopped playing before the game was even done. After playing starcraft 2 for this long, and getting used to properly pathing units, good graphics, great sound, etc, we're all sitting there trying to put 80 zerglings into 6 control groups, and it's just like fuck this. We quit before the game was even over.
Starcraft 1 has run it's course, if you want teamliquid to still exist, if you care at all about this site, you'll help it embrace starcraft 2, if you don't, you're going to help teamliquid.net become a backwater destination for 40 year old creeps who still play a 20 year old game, and who find it hard to consistantly get reservations for one at chucke cheeses
how long were you in high school? lol
i really wish this 'fan vs fan' shit would stop. i poured my heart and soul into brood war for many years, and don't regret a single moment of it. now i'm playing a ton of SC2 and greatly enjoying exploring a new game with millions of other people. if there wasn't all this kespa/gretech nonsense going down, and PL had started up already, and there was a new season of OSL and MSL underway, I'd still be up til 5am watching pro brood war. i would wager most people who've been around here a while are in the same boat as me. it's not necessary to be so antagonistic.
On October 15 2010 10:10 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: how long were you in high school? lol
i really wish this 'fan vs fan' shit would stop. i poured my heart and soul into brood war for many years, and don't regret a single moment of it. now i'm playing a ton of SC2 and greatly enjoying exploring a new game with millions of other people. if there wasn't all this kespa/gretech nonsense going down, and PL had started up already, and there was a new season of OSL and MSL underway, I'd still be up til 5am watching pro brood war. i would wager most people who've been around here a while are in the same boat as me. it's not necessary to be so antagonistic.
I actually enjoy watching BW more then sc2, and i never played bw before playing sc2 (im the opposite with playing though. I would rather play sc2 because bw is soo hard.)
I do enjoy watching sc2 being played, but there still is something about bw, about the unfolding of a complex stragity thats been tried and true, wand watching the little things the players do to execute these, (along with amazing maps), that draw me into bw.
I love both games, and want both of their esport carriers to continue.
On October 15 2010 07:53 opl3sa wrote: Yo I'm just going through all of these comments, and I have to point out these sentences: "Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. "
Hahaha, hahahaha hahahahahhaah
Are you referring to the trajectory of starcraft: Brood War? The very , very very first game to ever become an e-sport? Is this the game you are referring to when you say "normally" Well I would like to point out that starcraft : brood war was the first game to ever take that trajectory. So, no, it is not normal. And what has starcraft 2 done to deserve the attention that it is getting? How about this?
How about this. How about the fact that millions of people put close to 50 billion hours of gameplay into a single game, and the single benefactor from all of that learning was blizzard entertainment, which THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID IT'S JOB BY LISTENING TO THE NEEDS AND CONCERNS OF MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS OF GAMERS AND PUT THEIR EFFORTS INTO A SINGLE COLLABERATION CALLED STARCRAFT 2 HOW ABOUT THAT
Also: It should be mentioned that starcraft 1 is more than a decade old, and no video game is going to survive longer than this. This game came out around the time of Super Mario Bros from Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Are you still playing Super Mario Bros? Seriously bro? I don't care how great a game is, or whether or not it has been "fully explored" Are you serious dude? Are you still playing Grand Theft Auto for the original Playstation™ because you havent fully explored everything it has to offer?
As previous posters have mentioned, there is no possible way in eternity that SC:BW is going to be completely fleshed out, because this is a game that starts by requiring you have absolute control over 15 things at one time! And then you are supposed to have absolute control over 200 units 12 minutes later. I hate to tell you this but even someone with 1,500 APM can't fully flesh out Brood War for everything it's capable of. At some point you have to move on.
I played starcraft brood war when I was a teenager. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I'm 32 years old now and forgive me and thousands upon thousands of other players when I say that starcraft 1 sucks now, I tried to play a game the other day with my friends and we all stopped playing before the game was even done. After playing starcraft 2 for this long, and getting used to properly pathing units, good graphics, great sound, etc, we're all sitting there trying to put 80 zerglings into 6 control groups, and it's just like fuck this. We quit before the game was even over.
Starcraft 1 has run it's course, if you want teamliquid to still exist, if you care at all about this site, you'll help it embrace starcraft 2, if you don't, you're going to help teamliquid.net become a backwater destination for 40 year old creeps who still play a 20 year old game, and who find it hard to consistantly get reservations for one at chucke cheeses
User was banned for this post.
Finally someone who comes out with reason. I was 13 years old when I first played BW. I loved and still do but now it's simply time to embrace the new era. More people want something new and sc2 has been way overdue. So now we have debby downers running around putting up sad faces and banning people from threads. Pff to that....
Yeah, nobody is angry BW is dieing, but because it was put on the executioners chair by the company that made it.
There is such a big difference in transition here compared to any other game+sequel here. Of course always people take sides and you have oldies refusing to play the sequel etc. but never before has the game company's policy itself actively tried to take the first one out.
In the best world there are 2 proleagues and we'd all enjoy them, you could even have great new leagues like best of BW+SC2 crazy awesome tourneys. But BW is apparently considered milked and a hinderance now. The way this was all handled is terrible, that's the upsetting part.
ok I haven't read all this thread but some of you just make me sick.
I LOVE BW, it is by far the best game I have ever played. I grew up with it and played it from 9-19 all the fucking time.
But most of you hardcore bw guys come off as some of the most elitist douche bags I have ever seen. The way you guys constantly talk about sc2 like it's trash, and how nothing will ever fill bw shoes. It's one thing to love a game exclusively and be sad when it starts dying, but the way some of you post is an embarrassment.
BW was/is great and enjoy it while you can, but the only thing bringing it down right now in my mind are some people representing 'die hard' fans who constantly need to express how much better bw is and how sc2 doesn't even come close.
I am a die hard fan of bw. I am aware of many of the problems that sc2 faces. I was even on the side voicing major concern over multiple things (MBS, auto mining, no unit selection cap, smartcasting, extc.) Even after I started playing in the beta I kept some of my concerns and developed new ones, but after putting in plenty of hours, I found that sc2 is much better than I expected. There is still tons to do during a game and no one has come close to touching the potential "skill ceiling."
Is the learning curve easier? yes because of matchmaking & tips (no downsides there) and also because many of the harder mechanics of bw were dumbed down. However, by no means is sc2 'easy' though. It is many times more challenging than probably any other game out there besides bw.
So yes sc2 is easier then bw but I look at it this way.
Bw is like a 2000 story skyscaper with a steep stairway to climb to the top, (the top floor representing the skill cap) and after ten year of evolution and pros standing on the shoulders of giants, flash is on the 1000th floor.
sc2 is like a 1500 story skyscraper with elevators that can take you up to the 500th floor with moderate time invested, but the last 1000 floors still require a stairway. Top players now might be at 750, ( and they only reason they were able to get there so fast has a lot of do with the carry over skill from bw. )
I won't comment on some of the issues of sc2 as a spectator sport, but I will say that time will tell if people like it and that's pretty much all.
I love bw and will always be nostalgic of it, but I am more then excited for sc2 and the growth of esports in general.
If you don't like sc2 that's fine, stay in the bw/general forums, but don't be that old guy that constantly talks about the "good ol days" and "they don't make em like they use to."
I mean you can, but keep it in the bw forum and away from the overwhelming amount of people that enjoy sc2 as well.
I could be wrong but I think the majority of posters here loved bw and love sc2 a lot as well. Many have their preferences but you can love them both, They aren't mutually exclusive
/end rant
oh and I understand this doesn't accurately describe most people in this thread, but there are some. I just needed an open ended rant to get this off my chest.
Interesting thread. I've learned that comparing BW to sc2 is like comparing apples to oranges, but bw to football is completely acceptable. Also, I'm really looking forward to football 2!
Anyway, I had no idea how serious this was to people. Man, I loved watching BW games thanks in part to klazart putting them on YouTube with his intense casts. Before long, I was staying up until 3am to watch Koreans play my all time favorite game. But for me, it was mostly about having fun. Seeing the turmoil that BW's untimely demise is causing for people, I'm kinda glad to be a perma-noob casual observer.
Now SC2 is out, and I can play competitively at gold and platinum level without getting routed on ICCup every game by people who have had way more practice than me. That's fun! Also I am witnessing the birth and rapid evolution of a new Esport and that is fun too! I know its differrent than BW in terms of the type of skill that it demands, but for rts, I think strategy is more fun to watch than athleticism anyway.
Also, I can read books or watch football or start a business and just spend an hour or two every so often to enjoy a Korean Starcraft match or ladder a bit and thoroughly enjoy it. And when I'm done, there are other things I can enjoy too!
I guess what I'm saying is, its good to be a noob! I think everyone should try it, at least for a week, and see how it feels when Starcraft is just a fun part of your day. ^^
On October 15 2010 07:53 opl3sa wrote: Yo I'm just going through all of these comments, and I have to point out these sentences: "Normally you have a game and it slowly becomes more and more popular linear with people getting more and more skilled at it and finding out it's possibilities and then it becomes e-sport - the title should be deserved. "
Hahaha, hahahaha hahahahahhaah
Are you referring to the trajectory of starcraft: Brood War? The very , very very first game to ever become an e-sport? Is this the game you are referring to when you say "normally" Well I would like to point out that starcraft : brood war was the first game to ever take that trajectory. So, no, it is not normal. And what has starcraft 2 done to deserve the attention that it is getting? How about this?
How about this. How about the fact that millions of people put close to 50 billion hours of gameplay into a single game, and the single benefactor from all of that learning was blizzard entertainment, which THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID IT'S JOB BY LISTENING TO THE NEEDS AND CONCERNS OF MILLIONS, LITERALLY MILLIONS OF GAMERS AND PUT THEIR EFFORTS INTO A SINGLE COLLABERATION CALLED STARCRAFT 2 HOW ABOUT THAT
Also: It should be mentioned that starcraft 1 is more than a decade old, and no video game is going to survive longer than this. This game came out around the time of Super Mario Bros from Nintendo Entertainment System (NES). Are you still playing Super Mario Bros? Seriously bro? I don't care how great a game is, or whether or not it has been "fully explored" Are you serious dude? Are you still playing Grand Theft Auto for the original Playstation™ because you havent fully explored everything it has to offer?
As previous posters have mentioned, there is no possible way in eternity that SC:BW is going to be completely fleshed out, because this is a game that starts by requiring you have absolute control over 15 things at one time! And then you are supposed to have absolute control over 200 units 12 minutes later. I hate to tell you this but even someone with 1,500 APM can't fully flesh out Brood War for everything it's capable of. At some point you have to move on.
I played starcraft brood war when I was a teenager. WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I'm 32 years old now and forgive me and thousands upon thousands of other players when I say that starcraft 1 sucks now, I tried to play a game the other day with my friends and we all stopped playing before the game was even done. After playing starcraft 2 for this long, and getting used to properly pathing units, good graphics, great sound, etc, we're all sitting there trying to put 80 zerglings into 6 control groups, and it's just like fuck this. We quit before the game was even over.
Starcraft 1 has run it's course, if you want teamliquid to still exist, if you care at all about this site, you'll help it embrace starcraft 2, if you don't, you're going to help teamliquid.net become a backwater destination for 40 year old creeps who still play a 20 year old game, and who find it hard to consistantly get reservations for one at chucke cheeses
User was banned for this post.
Finally someone who comes out with reason. I was 13 years old when I first played BW. I loved and still do but now it's simply time to embrace the new era. More people want something new and sc2 has been way overdue. So now we have debby downers running around putting up sad faces and banning people from threads. Pff to that....
yea its ok to want soething new but when people (like that guy) talk about the old thing like its a pile of SHIT (which has been the most awesome RTS and competitive game EVER, pretty much) and has also been TLs focus and life and passion for 10 years i think he deserves a ban lol.
There's a lot of animosity between SC1 and SC2 players. Sort of like the old war veterans who think soldiers today are weak and pussies. The times are different and we all play starcraft--why can't we all just be supportive of each other. It's like the humans QQing at the technology for putting them out of jobs nowadays. We should utilize and celebrate the fact that the community is getting larger. Isn't this disparage going on right now on this thread the exact reason why SC1 and SC2 can't co-exist?
As for the rumors, it's sad to see the MSL possibly disbanding. I hope SC:BW goes out gloriously.
Some of those rumors sounds crazy and juicy for sure. I am not a very old school TL member (joined around 2007), but I understand the annoyance from the hardcore SC1 fans. I LOVE SC1 just like they do, but I love SC2 also. I'll admit that I thought SC2 was a complete garbage of a game during the beta. Reflecting back, I only felt that way because I did not like change and I was afraid of it. I did not like how there wasn't a reaver, I did not like how there was mbs, I did not like how there was auto mining, and so forth. The more I played it, the more I started to like it. Believe me, I am not forcing myself to love the game. It really does suck that both games cannot coexist like how CS 1.6 and CS:S has, but at least SC2 turned out to be a good game... unlike CS:S =P.
I am optimistic for SC2's future since we have great players (new and old) paving the way for inspired players. Tournaments such as IEM, MLG, etc continue to get bigger and bigger each time in both attendance and prize pool. For all we know, Heart of the Swarm (next expansion) might pull a BW and make the game even better.
If BW dies now, that will drive a stake into the heart of the fledgling SC2 pro-scene.
Consider this: if you know that every hour you spend perfecting a craft, every bit of intensity and sacrifice you pour into bringing your game to next level, will be completely worthless as soon as some company releases the 'Next Big Thing,' what will you do? How hard will you practice? No serious professional team, at the level we've enjoyed watching for the past 9 years, can exist with this hanging over their heads.