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Hello TL,
I'm sure some of you must be familiar with the amazing speakers on TED.com and perhaps a subset of those who know TED will know of TEDx, which stands for "TED extension" and is a global effort to independently organize TED conferences spotlighting people in the local community. Well, yesterday and today there was sort of an international TEDx Women event where at various locations throughout the world, TEDx communities would have 1 or 2-day speaker events focusing on women. The center of the action was Washington, DC, where Hilary Clinton made an appearance among others. The Bay Area TEDx chapter (the one I went to) called it an event "celebrating the powerful community of women" in the region, which of course means a ton of tech people and entrepreneurs (given that it's Silicon Valley). I'm very interested in tech, entrepreneurship (I work for an early-stage startup), and the female perspective, particularly given that I don't often see female entrepreneurs around. Plus my friend from high school was actually presenting.
Pretty much everybody was a quality speaker - some of better quality than others, but many highlights in general. Lots of smart people there, mostly women, and it was mostly women at the podium, although there were a few guys, too. A CTO at Hewlett Packard, the Secretary of State of California, a SETI scientist, a top chef, an award-winning journalism teacher, a top basketball coach, a doctor, and more. It was much like an event I attended at Singularity University this past summer called "Women @ the Frontier of Innovation and Entrepreneurship" (see a pattern?). I left both events with a happy, inspired feeling at the front of my consciousness and a tiny but growing wail of nerd rage in the back.
Nerd rage? What?
For all of the incredibly successful and talented and brilliant and hardworking and selfless and strong women there, whether speaking or watching or described anecdotally (Rosa Parks, Susan Boyle, etc.), even if they were self-professed geeks or seemed to possess a well-developed sense of fun - there were no gamers. No entertainment people, really, except for a recorded cast of Liza Donnelly (the New Yorker cartoonist), and the college basketball coach, and a flutist who also painted meaningful, conceptual things on canvas, but portraying these people as representative of "entertainment" is a stretch. Nobody was in the business of getting people to have fun. And with entertainment - particularly the video game industry - as important as it is to the world economy of now and the future, I think this was a huge oversight.
Instead, everything was tremendously earnest and serious and charitable and fraught with concern for kids, or the impoverished/oppressed and/or women who are unable to live up to their full potential for various external reasons. I have nothing against being active in social causes - I would love to see poverty wiped out and "barefoot entrepreneurs" in third world countries given the access and tools they need to become financially empowered. I think it's great to invest in kids and help them become independent creative thinkers.
But where does that leave someone like me?
I am entrepreneurial. I am in technology. I embrace pushing the envelope and being outspoken about things. I am of exactly the demographic that stuff like this is aimed towards. Then why is my life's passion - a field that leads the world in technological innovation and business growth - nowhere to be found? Why don't I see myself in any of these supposedly ideal role models?
During the lunch break, I sat down with some event attendees and talked a little bit about what I do. I told them about my job, which deals with educational games, and that seemed to resonate fairly well. Then I told them about eSports and StarCraft, and the cartoon question marks were floating above their heads. Then I told them that I am one of very few "openly female" people in the StarCraft community who is really active and outspoken about things, and they laughed in astonishment. "Openly female?" "Like being female is something really bad?" Their eyes grew huge when I told them I've received private messages from girls in the community who have thanked me for the simple fact of clearly being a girl and being, in some way, visible. That it gives them hope and comfort that it's possible to do this and not buckle under the weight of everything that comes flying your way when you reveal or declare femaleness online. Clearly this was stuff that none of these women could fathom, and that means it makes a damn good story that should be told more often.
I don't play StarCraft or write about it because I'm under some kind of minority's obligation. I do it because I love the game and the scene. I don't talk about the female perspective with relation to gaming just to prove that it exists. I do it because it's part of who I am and I can't stop expressing it when it needs to be expressed. Perhaps this is why such things aren't included in events like this - they are inherently selfish. Of course I want to see eSports grow, but I'm not trying to save the world through eSports. I want to make lots of friends and see us all happy and successful while engaging with a game that is a work of art. I just want to have fun with it and share the fun with other people.
It is difficult to reconcile this impulse with the TED Women archetype when I'm watching speaker after speaker hammer home a particular set of ideal female values - being selfless, nurturing, heroic, financially sensible, etc. - that I don't fit into. Playing 40 games a day to get myself to Platinum is not a selfless act. I'm not contributing to society by eating cold pizza and sitting in front of my computer for an entire day. I didn't even make the bed. I spend money on games, not medicine for third world children. I curse and rage when I lose, and every (ladder) win for me means more points for me and fewer points for my opponent. Utterly selfish. But so fun.
Side note: I wrote this big analysis thing in a TL thread discussing the lack of female (pro) gamers in SC which relates to the whole selfishness theme in more detail, for those who are curious: + Show Spoiler +Here are my thoughts, as a gamer, female, member of the StarCraft community, gaming industry professional, and as someone who has studied cognitive neuroscience and evolution of human behavior in college:
Observation: Generally speaking, I think men and women have different goals when they play games - they are satisfied by different outcomes, respectively. Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. Both tendencies obviously have great value in the maintenance of modern human civilization.
Causes: Biology and environment/society interact to make men feel more personally validated by some objective or subjective measure of dominance ("I scored x points" or "I'm better than you in x") than by social approval. If a typical guy had a choice between winning a basketball match against his sibling/friend/co-worker and losing on purpose so that the other party wouldn't lose face and/or get his/her feelings hurt, I think most Western men would take the former.
On the other hand, biology and environment/society interact to make women feel more personally validated by behaving in ways that support social stability and overall well being than by achieving dominance. Given the same hypothetical situation, your average woman would probably opt for losing on purpose or would say "it would depend on who I was playing against." Women are generally taught (and are generally biologically predisposed) to consider their role in the context of a group (couple, family, clique, etc.) and as dependent on or interdependent with the social whims of others. Women are - by and large - not islands. Women judge themselves by how they are perceived by others - it's a relational standard for self-approval or disapproval.
Effects: As a result, there is a huge disparity in female player preference/participation between games where you are rewarded for thinking contextually and enriching the relationships between different parties (The Sims) and games where you are, in essence, rewarded for making someone else feel bad (PvP-heavy games).
Women who truly enjoy PvP-heavy games like StarCraft (multiplayer) are in the minority. It means we actually enjoy actions which have the side effect of making other people feel bad about themselves (via losing) and therefore decreasing greater social happiness, which is a big no-no. I believe that this tendency is correlated to other behavioral leanings, as well: refusing to agree just for the sake of agreeing, for example, or feeling bad when you just sit there and nod instead of saying what you really think. Part of the reason I wrote up my socially awkward experience was to gather more data about this hypothesis from other females who frequent this site (and presumably have an interest in playing StarCraft), and so far I think I'm on the right track.
My prediction is that other women will never participate in the StarCraft scene in anything like the way they participate in WoW, Farmville, etc. unless they can see competitive StarCraft as a way to create and enrich social bonds and increase general happiness. This is why I support the SC2 Female Cups and why I don't think they should ever have a cash prize - it should appeal to women who want to bridge the gap between losing for the sake of saving someone else's face and cutting someone else down in the quest for personal dominance. In the Female Cup, you can win against someone else but still be friends with them (or even make a new friend)! Completely the best of both worlds.
Recommendation: If there are people who sincerely want to see more women in StarCraft (including pro gamers), there are a few things you can keep in mind. Not all of them are feasible - I certainly can't see TL turning into a community where people prioritize social harmony over the pursuit of personal dominance, nor would I want it to be that way. My more practical (and somewhat self-interested) recommendation would be this: value and respect the females that are already here for their contributions to the community. Whether that contribution is amazing art, or high level zerg play, or blog posts, or running an entire league, or just being interesting people to talk to - if women sense that this is a community where it is possible to be openly female and be appreciated as a human being and for what they can contribute, they will come.
I would not be here if I didn't know about lilsusie and mnm. Just food for thought.
In conclusion, I call upon these various powerful-women-celebrating organizations to remember that there is a side to women in business and technology other than the side that's doing good all the time. I have met female CEOs, senior programmers, marketing directors, lead artists, journalists, community managers, and more of/for game development and publishing companies. They're great examples of women who are raising their voices about stuff they're passionate about and making money doing so. They're people I aspire to be like someday. If one of the messages of the day was to inspire others and create a future where women can work to their greatest potential, then it is more necessary than ever to include gamer chicks in the pantheon. Please celebrate us, too.
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It's not that you aren't celebrated, female gamers are still an anomaly in the gaming society.
Furthermore, females will never become a majority within the gaming society because their mind is oriented towards different interest than males.
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Gotta say, even TL is bad enough on the sexism issue. (in b4 sexist jokes)
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Does my Peanutsc Gamer Barbie(tm) come with sex office lady suit and glasses costume now? FUCK YEAH.
Just jokes, train up and win the female ESL events plz peanut.
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On December 09 2010 17:40 Loanshark wrote: Gotta say, even TL is bad enough on the sexism issue. (in b4 sexist jokes)
By the way, in case anyone missed the last blog about girl gamers: horrible link
How did I miss this when it happened? There was so much victimization and selective thinking in that site it almost physically hurt to read.
I actually feel terrible for having contributed another view to their site stats, that's how awful it was.
Keeping this on topic, good on you OP; it's important to promote the things you enjoy doing, even in groups where it may not be so prevalent. You never know when you might open someone's eyes to something enjoyable which they may not have tried had you not come along.
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You seem to be very passionate, fixated and vocal about this issue of gender lately. I don't understand how exactly the community can "value and appreciate more"? I agree that the gaming community is an inhospitable place for females right now. However, your recent barrage of criticism is such a wide net... it feels like everyone fits into it, unless they are a girl gamer.
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I honestly fail to see your point; TED is about being awesome and inspirational. you certainly don't see male gamers who sit in front of the computer all day eating cold pizza trying to get into platinum giving speeches giving TED speeches either...
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Read it. Women are disenfranchised, so are gamers, not surprised you felt a bit left out. I was also under the impression that TED talks were about being awesome and inspirational. Perhaps the point was to take the badass energy by the speakers and channel that into your own direction. I don't think that's selfish at all.
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I think you will find, or probably already know why there were no women there in such roles, partially because as a society, men and women, are told to be as politically and socially "correct" as possible. The amazing effect of this is that it marginalizes people, and tries to treat them all the same so as to cause the least amount of differentiation and seclusion. Also the remit of the women speaking at these seminars is to empower, and on the surface it doesnt seem to "empower" women to sit around and play video games all day and take pride in kicking some ass. Now I, like you, think that this is what we are striving for, the notion that kicking around and kicking some ass with a video game or nerding out at a comic store is not a "cool" thing for a girl to do but just something "a girl does if she likes it", the aim is to promote no thought on the subject, as if someone from the future said "is that girl reading a comic :O" and someone from the present replies "yeah...so".
Part of the reason why "business" and "enterprise" are discussed at these things are because they are areas that have marginalised women in the past, which causes a rather odd side effect which is very important to understand. It creates the feeling of entitlement, the idea that, well we were denied x, so we fight for x, so everyone who didnt have x should have x. And while this is true for many things, freedom, voting, human rights, when it comes to career parths you find a generation or group of people who think that they have to have x and in many instances are a failure if they dont achieve it. So thats basically why people are taught the things they are at these events and why, until society reaches some level where female enterprise is both the norm and "nothing special" (in regards to being equal to male enterprise) then i dont think your going to see alot of diversity at these meetings.
To further my point at a newspaper over here they said feminist groups were worried that more women were choosing to stay at home with children than go into the office, because its something they wanted to do. While some see this as regressive i personally see it as a big sign of empowerment.
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Isn't drawing attention to gender being part of your identity as a gamer counterproductive to being accepted in the first place? Ideally no one would give a shit if you are a male/female gamer or even ask at all. The fact that female gamers feel compelled to remind everyone 24/7 that they are indeed female or insist (or imply) that they should have some extra feeling of accomplishment for playing games is absurd.
What does "openly female" even mean? You don't have to hide it but when you cease to be a "gamer" and become a "girl gamer" there is a problem imo. It isn't some big secret you have to be hush hush about but no one with has any reason to really care and talking about it constantly is irritating.
On December 10 2010 02:53 Mothra wrote: You seem to be very passionate, fixated and vocal about this issue of gender lately. I don't understand how exactly the community can "value and appreciate more"? I agree that the gaming community is an inhospitable place for females right now. However, your recent barrage of criticism is such a wide net... it feels like everyone fits into it, unless they are a girl gamer.
Thats because we should value and appreciate good players, people who contribute a lot (like NeverGG for example), and good posters/community members
valuing/appreciating a girl gamer more is stupid because the mere fact that they are a female gamer says nothing about them, their skill, their accomplishments, their personality, or anything really that would deserve any sort of value or appreciation whatsoever
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ohmygosh look at me im a gurl lol.
and tl.net eats it up. thats the worst part.
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I enjoy your blogs. I can relate, not to the being female part, but rather to the part about feeling out of step or sync with soceity. Keep it up!
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I was thinking about feminist issues in gaming, but not along these lines.
When you make claims such as:
Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. I feel like you are only enforcing gender roles and are not allowing people to just be who they want to be. Even if you say it's 'most of the time' you are still defining genders and that is (in my opinion) wrong. [As a note, I also just flat out disagree with the clearly sexist assumption]
I don't think it's very progressive to say "look at me, I'm a girl and I play games too!" I think it makes a big deal out of something that should be a non-issue. It encourages us to think of it as something weird. If you just spoke normally and used the right pronouns for yourself, people would still understand you're a girl without it seeming like a novelty. A wise man once said, judge me by the quality of my character, not by the colour of my skin. I would like to also judge you by the quality of your character, not gawk at you for being a girl. You make it so that if anyone likes or dislikes you, it has to be about what's between your legs, thus simplifying (I would argue dehumanizing) opinions of you.
I don't like it. Maybe that's what my next rant will be about lol.
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I remember reading some study about girls playing more support classes or healers in MMOs... and actually now that I think about it I *mostly* play non-carry champs in LoL...
But then again lately captain Teemo's been on duty like 24/7.
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I fully agree with what DocH and Chef posted here. Members such as lilsusie, NeverGG, and Intrigue have gotten "status" and recognition not through their gender, yet through their good work and contributions.
On December 10 2010 07:30 Coagulation wrote: ohmygosh look at me im a gurl lol.
and tl.net eats it up. thats the worst part.
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On December 10 2010 07:58 Haemonculus wrote: I remember reading some study about girls playing more support classes or healers in MMOs... and actually now that I think about it I *mostly* play non-carry champs in LoL...
But then again lately captain Teemo's been on duty like 24/7. women are more geared psychologically toward nurturing while men prefer to compete more directly and lead
i'd imagine that's the reason why men in general dominate gaming competitions but I'm probably wrong. I only took psych 101 and that was a while ago.
On December 10 2010 07:53 Chef wrote:I was thinking about feminist issues in gaming, but not along these lines. When you make claims such as: Show nested quote +Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. I feel like you are only enforcing gender roles and are not allowing people to just be who they want to be. Even if you say it's 'most of the time' you are still defining genders and that is (in my opinion) wrong. [As a note, I also just flat out disagree with the clearly sexist assumption] I don't think it's very progressive to say "look at me, I'm a girl and I play games too!" I think it makes a big deal out of something that should be a non-issue. It encourages us to think of it as something weird. If you just spoke normally and used the right pronouns for yourself, people would still understand you're a girl without it seeming like a novelty. A wise man once said, judge me by the quality of my character, not by the colour of my skin. I would like to also judge you by the quality of your character, not gawk at you for being a girl. You make it so that if anyone likes or dislikes you, it has to be about what's between your legs, thus simplifying (I would argue dehumanizing) opinions of you. I don't like it. Maybe that's what my next rant will be about lol.
Do you really think men and women are the same psychologically? That there are no differences toward what drives them and their general goals? I don't agree with gender roles (society deciding what is right or wrong for a person of a certain gender to do) but do you really disagree that men have a higher natural tendency to be competitive?
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Croatia9369 Posts
Wait, you're a female? *Mind-blown*
I've read some of your previous blogs and thought didn't even cross my mind..
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On December 10 2010 08:05 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 07:58 Haemonculus wrote: I remember reading some study about girls playing more support classes or healers in MMOs... and actually now that I think about it I *mostly* play non-carry champs in LoL...
But then again lately captain Teemo's been on duty like 24/7. women are more geared psychologically toward nurturing while men prefer to compete more directly and lead i'd imagine that's the reason why men in general dominate gaming competitions but I'm probably wrong. I only took psych 101 and that was a while ago. Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 07:53 Chef wrote:I was thinking about feminist issues in gaming, but not along these lines. When you make claims such as: Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. I feel like you are only enforcing gender roles and are not allowing people to just be who they want to be. Even if you say it's 'most of the time' you are still defining genders and that is (in my opinion) wrong. [As a note, I also just flat out disagree with the clearly sexist assumption] I don't think it's very progressive to say "look at me, I'm a girl and I play games too!" I think it makes a big deal out of something that should be a non-issue. It encourages us to think of it as something weird. If you just spoke normally and used the right pronouns for yourself, people would still understand you're a girl without it seeming like a novelty. A wise man once said, judge me by the quality of my character, not by the colour of my skin. I would like to also judge you by the quality of your character, not gawk at you for being a girl. You make it so that if anyone likes or dislikes you, it has to be about what's between your legs, thus simplifying (I would argue dehumanizing) opinions of you. I don't like it. Maybe that's what my next rant will be about lol. Do you really think men and women are the same psychologically? That there are no differences toward what drives them and their general goals? I don't agree with gender roles (society deciding what is right or wrong for a person of a certain gender to do) but do you really disagree that men have a higher natural tendency to be competitive? I completely disagree that men are naturally more competitive than women, yes. I completely disagree that women are naturally more maternal/emotional than men.
Do I think men and women are the same psychologically? I don't even know what that question means, or what you're implying. Are you saying something about what you believe testosterone and estrogen to be responsible for? If that is the case, I would say I believe two correlating factors do not necessarily cause one another.
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I don't identify myself as a male gamer. Why should a woman identify herself as a "female" gamer?
Either you're a gamer or you're not. People make a big deal out of gender and frankly, I just don't think there's any real benefit to it.
Edit: I think it's good that there are women being more "open" about being involved in the community. When Pikachu won the ESL tournament I was very happy, because "typically," you don't see or hear about women playing games. I've always been given the impression by women that gaming is a "male" thing. It's dumb, in my opinion.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Hello Peanut,
I suppose it would be sensible for me to simply not read your blogs, but I've never been big on sense, so here we go.
First let me preface this by saying I'm not openly trying to insult you just for the sake of it, but I do hope the following makes you at least sad enough that you'll seriously consider what is being said.
I have read pretty much every single blog you've ever posted on TL, and I'm about ready to announce my conclusions, some of which will hopefully answer some of the questions you've been posing for yourself. Right off the bat, I get the distinct impression that you are very, very insecure. I'll get back to that, because it is definitely relevant, but will take some explaining.
Throughout your blogs, there are several common elements on which you write extensively about but seem to have a skewed or incomplete understanding of.
On December 09 2010 16:18 Peanutsc wrote:Hello TL, I'm sure some of you must be familiar with the amazing speakers on TED.com and perhaps a subset of those who know TED will know of TEDx, which stands for "TED extension" and is a global effort to independently organize TED conferences spotlighting people in the local community. Well, yesterday and today there was sort of an international TEDx Women event where at various locations throughout the world, TEDx communities would have 1 or 2-day speaker events focusing on women. The center of the action was Washington, DC, where Hilary Clinton made an appearance among others. The Bay Area TEDx chapter (the one I went to) called it an event "celebrating the powerful community of women" in the region, which of course means a ton of tech people and entrepreneurs (given that it's Silicon Valley). I'm very interested in tech, entrepreneurship (I work for an early-stage startup). Plus my friend from high school was actually presenting.
I removed a sentence from this paragraph, but to 99% of the people who read this blog, it will contain identical information to your original. That's because the sentence I removed is completely irrelevant.
"... and the female perspective, particularly given that I don't often see female entrepreneurs around. "
There is no "female perspective" of success, similar to the way there's no "male perspective" on how long a mile is. Success is determined by how hard you work, who you know, and raw god-damned brilliance. None of those traits are gender-specific. To insinuate that a female entrepreneur needs something additional, or that a woman must take a different path to success, is not only a gross misrepresentation of the skill sets necessary to excel in various fields, but a complete denial of responsibility for your own success. To justify this by saying you don't see female entrepreneurs around is not just ignorant because your own exposure is a veritable raindrop on the ocean, but ignorant because you are clearly suggesting that either:
a) women are less successful as entrepreneurs because they are innately inferior
or
b) women are less successful as entrepreneurs because of societal circumstances out of anyone's control.
This is a cop-out. It's not even a good cop-out, it's just convenient. Neither of the above statements are true. No one at the helm of a successful business thinks either of the above statements are true.
Pretty much everybody was a quality speaker - some of better quality than others, but many highlights in general. Lots of smart people there, mostly women, and it was mostly women at the podium, although there were a few guys, too. A CTO at Hewlett Packard, the Secretary of State of California, a SETI scientist, a top chef, an award-winning journalism teacher, a top basketball coach, a doctor, and more. It was much like an event I attended at Singularity University this past summer called "Women @ the Frontier of Innovation and Entrepreneurship" (see a pattern?). I left both events with a happy, inspired feeling at the front of my consciousness and a tiny but growing wail of nerd rage in the back. Nerd rage? What? For all of the incredibly successful and talented and brilliant and hardworking and selfless and strong women there, whether speaking or watching or described anecdotally (Rosa Parks, Susan Boyle, etc.), even if they were self-professed geeks or seemed to possess a well-developed sense of fun - there were no gamers. No entertainment people, really, except for a recorded cast of Liza Donnelly (the New Yorker cartoonist), and the college basketball coach, and a flutist who also painted meaningful, conceptual things on canvas, but portraying these people as representative of "entertainment" is a stretch. Nobody was in the business of getting people to have fun. And with entertainment - particularly the video game industry - as important as it is to the world economy of now and the future, I think this was a huge oversight.
I've already covered assigning gender tags to issues completely separate from gender, so I won't continue to harp on you about it here. I want to quickly touch on the part where you mention Rosa Parks and Susan Boyle in the same breath, because it ties into my next point.
Rosa Parks is a fucking civil hero. A hero! She held her ground in the face of very real consequences because she believed the segregation that existed between blacks and whites in that era was wrong. It was an act that displayed courage. She was right, and we as a culture have changed based on the actions and words of Parks and others like her in that time. I can understand and appreciate the admiration you hold for her, she is an important figure in the story that was the civil rights movement.
Susan Boyle went on TV and sang horribly. For this, you put her in the same sentence as Rosa Parks? Getting up on stage and singing in front of a huge crowd and millions watching on TV is not an act of courage. It's an act of confidence, and they are two very different things. I suppose you don't realize this, but 90% of the people on earth over the age of 21 do not give a shit what other people think. Susan Boyle did something that is not difficult, nor deserving of such admiration. This speaks volumes about you and your own lack of confidence, which is much closer to the issue at hand than anything you've written here.
Instead, everything was tremendously earnest and serious and charitable and fraught with concern for kids, or the impoverished/oppressed and/or women who are unable to live up to their full potential for various external reasons. I have nothing against being active in social causes - I would love to see poverty wiped out and "barefoot entrepreneurs" in third world countries given the access and tools they need to become financially empowered. I think it's great to invest in kids and help them become independent creative thinkers.
But where does that leave someone like me?
Where does that leave someone like you? What exactly is "someone like you" supposed to mean? You're actually referring to "gamers", but this is a complete fallacy. Games are a hobby. The CEO of Blizzard's credentials do not end at "enjoys video games". Think about all of the necessary skills for a role of that magnitude, and whether or not you currently possess them. Ask yourself, do you not possess them because you're a girl, or because you haven't spent the time and energy to develop them? Hell, just look at it completely within the context of video games. Ask yourself why you are not as successful as Artosis in this field. Is it because you are a girl, or because of the vast chasm of difference between your own talent & confidence and his? I really hope you pick the right answer. Can you objectively say that any content you've ever put out has been on par with the average Artosis production? You definitely cannot, and it has nothing to do with your gender. If your content simply is not as good as the best, how can you attribute your failure to anything else? It's just an excuse, a pathetic crutch on which you are limping around your career.
I am entrepreneurial. I am in technology. I embrace pushing the envelope and being outspoken about things. I am of exactly the demographic that stuff like this is aimed towards. Then why is my life's passion - a field that leads the world in technological innovation and business growth - nowhere to be found? Why don't I see myself in any of these supposedly ideal role models?
You are entrepreneurial? Do you know what it takes to run a business? Have you ever started something from the ground up, all by yourself, and created steady, reliable profit? No? Then you're not entrepreneurial, you're aspiring. You're in technology? Do you know how to build a processor? Do you know how the math behind a physics engine works? Are you capable of innovation beyond what is currently on the market? No. You're the consumer. You entered the video game scene as the consumer, and your perspective of it will be based largely on your experiences as the consumer. It's fun to type big fancy words and pretend that they apply to you, but you really need to examine the people that were speaking, compare their skills and confidence and drive to excel to your own, and then ask yourself again why you don't see yourself in these ideal role models. It's not because they don't play video games.
During the lunch break, I sat down with some event attendees and talked a little bit about what I do. I told them about my job, which deals with educational games, and that seemed to resonate fairly well. Then I told them about eSports and StarCraft, and the cartoon question marks were floating above their heads. Then I told them that I am one of very few "openly female" people in the StarCraft community who is really active and outspoken about things, and they laughed in astonishment. "Openly female?" "Like being female is something really bad?" Their eyes grew huge when I told them I've received private messages from girls in the community who have thanked me for the simple fact of clearly being a girl and being, in some way, visible. That it gives them hope and comfort that it's possible to do this and not buckle under the weight of everything that comes flying your way when you reveal or declare femaleness online. Clearly this was stuff that none of these women could fathom, and that means it makes a damn good story that should be told more often.
That's what you gleaned from their reaction? How utterly convenient. It tells me that they (remember, "they" are successful businesspeople that you aspire to be) don't give a shit whether or not girls are treated differently when they play video games. When they are completely oblivious to the issue that you see as so important, do you not take a step back and reconsider your priorities? You're not just one of the very few "openly female" people in our community, you're one of the very few "openly female" people, period, because being "openly female" is stupid in more ways than I have the patience to mention. As your previous blogs have shown, most of the more intelligent members on TL really don't give a shit what you have between your thighs. This is a forum where quality of content reigns supreme above EVERYTHING else, so it has always seemed very strange to me that you'd use a blog here, of all places, as a soapbox.
I don't play StarCraft or write about it because I'm under some kind of minority's obligation. I do it because I love the game and the scene. I don't talk about the female perspective with relation to gaming just to prove that it exists. I do it because it's part of who I am and I can't stop expressing it when it needs to be expressed. Perhaps this is why such things aren't included in events like this - they are inherently selfish. Of course I want to see eSports grow, but I'm not trying to save the world through eSports. I want to make lots of friends and see us all happy and successful while engaging with a game that is a work of art. I just want to have fun with it and share the fun with other people.
This reminds me of a previous blog where you were astounded that "other girls" you met had different interests. You ARE selfish. I don't hold it against you, because it's a very very easy self-defense mechanism to simply decide that other people just don't understand. It's a shame that you went to a convention filled with speakers who have worked their fingers to the bone to get where they are, and your final appraisal of the event is "What about me?".
It is difficult to reconcile this impulse with the TED Women archetype when I'm watching speaker after speaker hammer home a particular set of ideal female values - being selfless, nurturing, heroic, financially sensible, etc. - that I don't fit into. Playing 40 games a day to get myself to Platinum is not a selfless act. I'm not contributing to society by eating cold pizza and sitting in front of my computer for an entire day. I didn't even make the bed. I spend money on games, not medicine for third world children. I curse and rage when I lose, and every (ladder) win for me means more points for me and fewer points for my opponent. Utterly selfish. But so fun.
I cut out your gigantic spoiler.
You are selfish, and lacking the confidence to actually pursue, in earnest, your desired goals and achievements. Newsflash: Being selfless, nurturing, heroic, financially sensible, etc - all of those are positive traits that have NOTHING TO DO WITH GENDER. They are products of strong work ethic, responsibility, restraint, and intelligence. You don't need the dangling pears to possess those traits.
In conclusion, I call upon these various powerful-women-celebrating organizations to remember that there is a side to women in business and technology other than the side that's doing good all the time. I have met female CEOs, senior programmers, marketing directors, lead artists, journalists, community managers, and more of/for game development and publishing companies. They're great examples of women who are raising their voices about stuff they're passionate about and making money doing so. They're people I aspire to be like someday. If one of the messages of the day was to inspire others and create a future where women can work to their greatest potential, then it is more necessary than ever to include gamer chicks in the pantheon. Please celebrate us, too.
Here's the meat of your problem. You identify yourself as a "gamer chick", a niche that I've already explained doesn't actually exist. My sister plays WoW, has her own arcade stick for SSF4, has played through nearly every SNES RPG in existence, and has played through games like Dragon Age countless times. She introduces herself not as a gamer, but as a 3D Artist, because that is her profession. That's her skill set. Being a "gamer" is not a skill set, nor should your hobbies define you in your entirety.
Or hell, for an example that hits closer to home, I know who Haemonculus is here on TL because she's a damn good BW and LoL player. I know who you are because you pine incessantly about your vagina. See the difference?
Furthermore, what exactly do you think you've done, compared to the people speaking at that convention, to deserve any celebration whatsoever? It is not merely enough to exist as something sort-of uncommon, and loving something, no matter how much, will NEVER be enough for success in any field.
The problems you are facing are artificial, and the real problems will tie you down until you figure out what they are, conquer them, and move forward. At the moment you are basically useless, with an opinion that is basically worthless, assigning yourself to a niche that is basically nonexistent. It's pathetic, and you need to stop. For your own sake, not mine, cuz I could go on all day.
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That was... simply amazing, FS.
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On December 09 2010 16:18 Peanutsc wrote: Then I told them that I am one of very few "openly female" people in the StarCraft community who is really active and outspoken about things, and they laughed in astonishment. "Openly female?" "Like being female is something really bad?" Their eyes grew huge when I told them I've received private messages from girls in the community who have thanked me for the simple fact of clearly being a girl and being, in some way, visible. That it gives them hope and comfort that it's possible to do this and not buckle under the weight of everything that comes flying your way when you reveal or declare femaleness online. Clearly this was stuff that none of these women could fathom, and that means it makes a damn good story that should be told more often.
I don't play StarCraft or write about it because I'm under some kind of minority's obligation. I do it because I love the game and the scene. I don't talk about the female perspective with relation to gaming just to prove that it exists. I do it because it's part of who I am and I can't stop expressing it when it needs to be expressed.
This is one of the most delusional pieces of writing I've ever read on TL.
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Fakesteve is my friend, and I am proud to say that as an openly male gamer
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Daaaamn that was epic O_O (fake steve's reply) I guess I agree with some of it, but it was overly harsh...
But I really want to back Peanut up. See the strange thing about being a girl who likes games is that you are instantly in the minority, which can make you instantly insecure.
Ummm.. I'm not very good with words but I'll try to explain it. When going to lans or other such nerdy events, it's odd because you have to consciously try not to feel out of place. You can't help but feel you're sticking out like a sore thumb and it's hard not to notice the prolonged stares. I once tried to explain this to my brother with this story: Imagine you are a boy, and that you really enjoy playing this game called "Princess Fairy Wars!" even though most of the people playing it were girls. You don't care though, because you really love this game. Now imagine going to a lan where 95% of the people there are girls. You might feel out of place... but then perhaps some of you would enjoy that haha! Anyway, I guess some girls do seem to love the attention and prolonged stares, and can't say "Hi I'm a girl. I like games" without then adding "SO LOVE ME FOR IT!!!!!1"
But I really don't think that's what Peanut does. I suppose being the minority is on her mind a lot, seeing as she blogs about it.
The TL community is pretty good, but nerds will be nerds (and generally boys) and this can be a little overwhelming at times. For example, my last blog where I drew a lady zealot, it attracted a bunch of semi sexist jokes (eg. "i'd hit that", "Needs more bewbz", "why isn't she in the kitchen") and it annoyed me, knowing that if I drew a man zealot, there obviously wouldnt have been any jokes.
It's easy to just say "get over it, man (lol) up" but truthfully it can be an awkward thing as a girl gamer, not being able to fit in amongst fellow nerds as easily compared to a boy gamer.
Edit: I wasn't trying to argue, I was trying to explain what it can feel like being a girl gamer.
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Did you read FS post at all, if she was doing it for the games, she wouldn't have to mention she's a female in every post ever.
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OP Needs to Print out Steves reply and stick it on fridge.
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Personally, I'm still trying to get over the Rosa Parks = Susan Boyle = Peanut
FS is a hero
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
someone change his name to realsteve
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Didn't expect this when I clicked the title. Just thought it would be a thread in which I could make some sexist remark then vanish into the anonymous mass of male gamers.
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Osaka26985 Posts
How about you lemmings have an opinion of your own rather than running in behind a red name.
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Croatia9369 Posts
On December 11 2010 20:59 Manifesto7 wrote: How about you lemmings have an opinion of your own rather than running in behind a red name. I agree.
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i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it.
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On December 11 2010 12:48 vinn wrote: "Hi I'm a girl. I like games" without then adding "SO LOVE ME FOR IT!!!!!1"
NO. It should be. "Hi" "I'm a girl" is totally irrelevant, unless you're attention whoring. Likewise "I like games" should either be obvious if you're at a gaming convention or posting on teamliquid, and otherwise you shouldn't really be flaunting it around. What the fuck.
I don't go around talking about gaming, sure most people know I play tons of games but I never really talk about it IRL. You talk about games to people who play games. If you go around flaunting how much of a gamer you are you'll get the same attention that you get if you go around flaunting that you're a woman in a gaming site.
Being in the minority means nothing really. If you're in diamond in the minority. If you play starcraft as your main game you are in the minority. If you're feeling insecure or you don't fit in its really your problem, not something that was handed to you at birth.
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On December 11 2010 20:59 Manifesto7 wrote: How about you lemmings have an opinion of your own rather than running in behind a red name. Wait, what? Are some names red? I am colorblind so maybe I don't see it, what names are red?
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On December 11 2010 21:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 20:59 Manifesto7 wrote: How about you lemmings have an opinion of your own rather than running in behind a red name. I agree. i hope that wasn't intentional
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On December 11 2010 21:06 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 20:59 Manifesto7 wrote: How about you lemmings have an opinion of your own rather than running in behind a red name. I agree.
I lol'd hard.
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Somebody make a comic pls =p Manifesto7 makes the post *fuck yeah* comes back, wondering what kind of insightful discussion has now ensured reads post "I agree" (With troll face) *FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU*
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On December 11 2010 21:16 nath wrote: i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it.
Don't think that was the point, the point is that NOBODY said a thing til a red posted a long rant, and all fo a sudden YEAHHH CLAPPING GIFS AND AGREEING WITH FS.
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On December 12 2010 06:56 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 21:16 nath wrote: i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it. Don't think that was the point, the point is that NOBODY said a thing til a red posted a long rant, and all fo a sudden YEAHHH CLAPPING GIFS AND AGREEING WITH FS.
excuse me ?"NOBODY" Said a thing???
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=175441#11
If anything Fakesteve was copying me.
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This thread now has:
1: a pro peanut bandwagon.
2: a pro-fakesteve / anti-peanut bandwagon.
3: an anti-bandwagon bandwagon.
4: a pointing out the irony in there being a bandwagon that is anti-bandwagon bandwagon.
I think we should all be very ashamed of what has transpired here.
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On December 12 2010 06:56 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 21:16 nath wrote: i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it. Don't think that was the point, the point is that NOBODY said a thing til a red posted a long rant, and all fo a sudden YEAHHH CLAPPING GIFS AND AGREEING WITH FS.
Nobody said a thing about the boring blog post until somebody made an interesting post. People can get upset about anything if they want to.
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On December 12 2010 10:08 Jpizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2010 06:56 ZlaSHeR wrote:On December 11 2010 21:16 nath wrote: i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it. Don't think that was the point, the point is that NOBODY said a thing til a red posted a long rant, and all fo a sudden YEAHHH CLAPPING GIFS AND AGREEING WITH FS. Nobody said a thing about the boring blog post until somebody made an interesting post. People can get upset about anything if they want to. wut r u talking about me and coag both said it was dumb before fs said anything
ur just a sheep
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5: An "I hated this blog before it was cool to hate this blog" bandwagon.
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On December 12 2010 10:13 Lemonwalrus wrote: 5: An "I hated this blog before it was cool to hate this blog" bandwagon. you're going to start a bandwagon naming bandwagon if you keep this up LW
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Infinite bandwagon recursion incoming o.o
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lol all I said is I am friends with fakesteve, and am openly male, so how the heck am I a "sheep"? At no point did I state whether I agree or not with his post, or the OP's. Maybe u should read my post before becoming some holy crusader of message boards.
And for the record: Since when is agreeing with somebody a bad thing that should be shamed by others? If somebody raises a good point and people agree with them, why would you try and belittle them by saying they are lemmings or sheep? I really hate the internet sometimes.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
a bandwagon is when people unite and follow something merely because the majority is
this is certainly not the case here
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On December 12 2010 06:56 ZlaSHeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2010 21:16 nath wrote: i wish cammomile and jasmine teas were popular in the US so girls could be less bitchy.
i will be a lemming and /adore FakeSteve's response, he took a lot of time to completely deconstruct the fallacies in peanut's statements, although a lot of the refutations were slightly subjective -- i can't help but agree with it. Don't think that was the point, the point is that NOBODY said a thing til a red posted a long rant, and all fo a sudden YEAHHH CLAPPING GIFS AND AGREEING WITH FS.
Thinking something is one thing, but if you can't articulate it well enough or don't care enough or can't be bothered to read the blogs you're not going to fuck it up with a 5 line post.
I think you're just jealous whatever you probably posted didn't get any love!
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
i cant keep my mouth closed
that was amazing
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I finally got around to reading this post because it keeps showing up at the top of the blogs page, and I disagree with SO much of it that I really don't know where to start. First things first, Rosa Parks and Susan Boyle? How in the fuck do you mention both these people in the same breath? This is so ridiculous that it's actually sickening me, and your problem with them being mentioned as examples of women leaders because they're not "gamers"? What the fuuuuuuuuu? How in the hell does this apply here? Gaming is a hobby, it's something you do for fun, it is not an identity, it is not a skillset, it is not a job, and it is not to ever be compared to being a civil rights hero or even a CEO of a company.
Playing games regardless of gender doesn't translate into some heroic thing we need to discuss and champion. Being SUCCESSFUL despite some adversity on the other hand is something worth mentioning, but being a 'girl' is not enough to be considered adversity. Being a girl who happens to play games is also NOT adversity. Girls who play games aren't some hero martyrs, and being a gamer isn't something to use as a crutch or an excuse. It's just a hobby.
Edit: OK I scrolled down and read FakeSteve's post and I ended up deleting everything I was typing because he basically perfectly articulated most of what I wanted to say. Man.
Edit2: Alright I guess I am pretty late to this but I always read the OP before reading the entire thread and I had to reply immediately.
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On December 12 2010 11:59 Zim23 wrote: I finally got around to reading this post because it keeps showing up at the top of the blogs page, and I disagree with SO much of it that I really don't know where to start. First things first, Rosa Parks and Susan Boyle? How in the fuck do you mention both these people in the same breath? This is so ridiculous that it's actually sickening me, and your problem with them being mentioned as examples of women leaders because they're not "gamers"? What the fuuuuuuuuu? How in the hell does this apply here? Gaming is a hobby, it's something you do for fun, it is not an identity, it is not a skillset, it is not a job, and it is not to ever be compared to being a civil rights hero or even a CEO of a company.
Playing games regardless of gender doesn't translate into some heroic thing we need to discuss and champion. Being SUCCESSFUL despite some adversity on the other hand is something worth mentioning, but being a 'girl' is not enough to be considered adversity. Being a girl who happens to play games is also NOT adversity. Girls who play games aren't some hero martyrs, and being a gamer isn't something to use as a crutch or an excuse. It's just a hobby.
Edit: OK I scrolled down and read FakeSteve's post and I ended up deleting everything I was typing because he basically perfectly articulated most of what I wanted to say. Man.
Edit2: Alright I guess I am pretty late to this but I always read the OP before reading the entire thread and I had to reply immediately.
Bandwagon left the station days ago
this is now a thread about bandwagons.
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On December 12 2010 10:32 Rekrul wrote: a bandwagon is when people unite and follow something merely because the majority is
this is certainly not the case here
I agree. I don't think it's a bandwagon. It's more like independent discoveries of the same thing, like paper making or the printing press. Just, one guy made a bit better paper than everyone else.
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Don't like this whole victimizing of an entire gender you're pulling throughout your post, don't like how you somehow come to the conclusion that just the mere fact that you're a minority of a community makes respect and praise something that should be a given.
I do hope you tune in next week though. I'll make a blog where I talk about being "openly male" working as a nurse, the hardships and struggles i have to go through being a minority.
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disagree, who says everyone jumped on the bandwagon behind fakesteve because hes red and has lots of posts. proper research would say for that to be confirmed this experiment would have to be replicated many times, some of them where a similar post to fakesteve's in terms of depth and language is made by someone with few posts and a regular, unfamiliar name.
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this blog is so fucking confusing. Rosa Park, Susan Boyle, FakeSteve, Banwagon and lemmings i've read all replies like 3-4 times now and im still confused, way to derail everything
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Haemonculus is a girl? WTF when did this happen?
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On December 14 2010 09:45 synapse wrote: Haemonculus is a girl? WTF when did this happen?
At the end of the first trimester
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I really get the impression that theirs still a lot of muted hostility towards women in the SC2 scene from this thread lol. I've seen people make posts along very similar lines concerning Cuban gamers, gay colorblind gamers, all kinds of different "gamer minorities". The same criticisms in this thread were all equally valid there.
Think some people here are just feeling threatened. Nobody likes changes in status quo.
I mean in a sense I see where its coming from. Some people are afraid of a community where ones gains prominence through the lone virtue of having a vagina in a figurative room full of nerds. I get that But at the same time, often its just plain petty.
Some of these posts in this thread seem like downright personal attacks lol.
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On December 10 2010 06:45 pattheflip wrote: Read it. Women are disenfranchised, so are gamers, not surprised you felt a bit left out. I'm probably late to the conversation, but I really agree with this guy's point. Being the outcast of an outcast group must feel frustrating. but the thing is... are we even ready to tackle the issue of female representation is esports when esports itself is underrepresented? Could it be that if esports gets bigger, then women is esports will gain more notice? The problem is that there is no one model to represent this gender inequality, so we as a community lack direction in tackling this issue. I bet there'll be people scoffing at your blog because they think that the underrepresentation of esports is a bigger issue, but what's to say they're wrong?
There's also the entertainment factor in all of this. esports and sports in general is not meant for the players, but for the spectators imo. no one watches wnba because the nba is so much better. beach volleyball is popular because you have girls in bikinis. in gaming and esports, women have yet to prove that they can entertain as much as their male counterparts. Do female gamers and women in esports even deserve recognition or support?
i'm posing these questions because even though you may be nerd raging about underrepresentation, it might be that that's the right amount of representation in the current of the game.
edit: lol just realized how i missed out on the entire discussion already. anyway those who think gender has nothing to do with success and representation have a really naive view of the world. gender roles have an effect on pretty much any type of communication and interaction in the game, especially in gaming and esports where the sex ratios are ridiculously skewed. one cannot rationally deny that playing field is different for men and women in esports, especially when you add in the community aspect.
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On December 14 2010 13:55 Half wrote: I really get the impression that theirs still a lot of muted hostility towards women in the SC2 scene from this thread lol. I've seen people make posts along very similar lines concerning Cuban gamers, gay colorblind gamers, all kinds of different "gamer minorities". The same criticisms in this thread were all equally valid there.
Think some people here are just feeling threatened. Nobody likes changes in status quo.
I mean in a sense I see where its coming from. Some people are afraid of a community where ones gains prominence through the lone virtue of having a vagina in a figurative room full of nerds. I get that But at the same time, often its just plain petty.
Some of these posts in this thread seem like downright personal attacks lol. I'm pretty sure those posts were meant to be personal attacks to some degree. If I understand correctly, a lot of TLers dislike Peanut because she feels the need to let everyone know that she's a girl (gamer). As in, she needs to realize that being a girl does not earn you respect as a gamer.
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On December 14 2010 14:22 synapse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 13:55 Half wrote: I really get the impression that theirs still a lot of muted hostility towards women in the SC2 scene from this thread lol. I've seen people make posts along very similar lines concerning Cuban gamers, gay colorblind gamers, all kinds of different "gamer minorities". The same criticisms in this thread were all equally valid there.
Think some people here are just feeling threatened. Nobody likes changes in status quo.
I mean in a sense I see where its coming from. Some people are afraid of a community where ones gains prominence through the lone virtue of having a vagina in a figurative room full of nerds. I get that But at the same time, often its just plain petty.
Some of these posts in this thread seem like downright personal attacks lol. I'm pretty sure those posts were meant to be personal attacks to some degree. If I understand correctly, a lot of TLers dislike Peanut because she feels the need to let everyone know that she's a girl (gamer). As in, she needs to realize that being a girl does not earn you respect as a gamer. I don't think this is too much to do with actually playing the game. Not all forum goers are here to compete. in fact, i think she deserve a good amount of respect of being an active of this community and doing so as a girl because she gives voice to a small subset of this community that is often muted.
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On December 14 2010 03:46 Flaccid wrote:
hahahahahahaha i laughed sooooo hard, this thread is getting out of control
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