So as the year comes to a close and I was writing a separate blog of everything I did in 2010 in Starcraft I got an urge to play broodwar again and in the past 2-3 days after playing 20 or so games for the first time in 4+ months (no I'm not planning on quitting sc2 and coming back to broodwar hardcore) I've realized a couple things. This blog isn't intended to be an sc2 or broodwar bashing blog (I'm so sick of broodwar and sc2 users hating each other) I consider myself hopelessly obsessed with both games. Broodwar is a refined masterpiece and sc2 is an amazing work in progress, you can't really gain anything from compare them directly or picking one that's better at this point, they are separate games that should be treated separately. But I still like to draw parallels or differences between how I feel when playing both. Hardcore sc2 haters who I've encountered in the past 2-3 days on iccup have asked me this question: "What game do you think is better, broodwar or sc2?"
That's like asking me: "who would you take Jessica Alba or Megan Fox?" "Uh I'll take both plz kthx?"
All of this being said I'm going to jump into a mini rant now which compares the feeling of playing a good game of broodwar vs playing a good game of sc2 and risk/reward elements between the two.
I'd forgotten how epic it was winning games in broodwar. The sense of accomplishment that you get when you win is awesome, (especially from a terran players perspective) YOU won the game through superior tactics, gameplay, micro, positioning, build, control, game sense... It was YOU that won that game through YOUR solid play and nothing else. (ok maybe it was the other guy screwing up sometimes, but it's still up to you to exploit his mistakes) the level of attachment between mind and game feels so deep in broodwar. When you were nervous it showed so sharply in your play. When you weren't exactly playing your best the dropoff would show so harshly. On the other side when you did hit your marks in games you were rewarded so much... Maybe my emotional attachment with broodwar still just runs much deeper. Maybe it's because the game has been so figured out and can be played at such a ridiculously deep level.
Bottom line is playing and winning in broodwar is just so good. I was able to manipulate the controls of the game to do things that I wanted. When you control correctly "most" of the time units obey. Nothing is 100% though, a build could counter another build but maybe a unit misfires, maybe an scv blocks something, maybe a mine kills 5 goons... These epic uncertain elements helped forge broodwars identity over the years. When you misclick or control more sloppily your units will become scattered or less effective. When I'm focused and in a strong state of mind I typically play so much better and it's reflected through my gameplay. When I'm tired or even slightly mentally fatigued my abilities drop off so quickly and it's immediately evident in my gameplay. One or two games and my best friends in broodwar could obs and tell I was tired, making uncharacteristic mistakes, sloppy timing, any number of errors and they would show up in the field of play immediately.
When you lose you have no one to blame but yourself. The drive to improve both mind and understanding of the game is probably what kept me interested for YEARS and why I played broodwar more (and eventually became the only game I played) than any other game.
Preparing for broodwar competitions and lans was immensely stressful for most top players. Ask Day9, Machine, Nyoken or any top broodwar player who competed in big events. Controlling nerves is half the battle when competing in a live event. Day9 wouldn't even talk to people when it came close to tournament time, others had massive nerve issues or anxiety. When nerves are effecting you negatively in broodwar it can severely impact your game. Having a clear mind is insanely important.
sc2 its important to keep nerves down too, it's just as easy to slip in macro or misclick but the nature of the game is more forgiving in this regard. It's more important to keep a clear mind with playing solid strategy and executing it than mechanics.
Winning in sc2 is fun, but sometimes (more often than not) winning doesn't feel as much of an accomplishment. Sometimes winning can feel stupid actually. I mean sure it's great, you won the game and beat your opponent, you played amazingly, you made great tactical decisions and microed decently or macroed well... But I can't help but feel kind of let down sometimes, like it wasn't all me that won the game, that it wasn't my hard work, strong mental mindset, dedicated practice that helped me win that game. It's almost as if the game is playing itself in some aspects which creates a dis-attachment that you almost never felt in broodwar. Or you're taking advantage of something in the game that honestly isn't balanced. Take for example the proxy thor scv allin by terran in sc2, as my scvs cluster around the thor, preventing him from targeting it with anything more than his 2-3 stalkers, all I do is watch and wait for him to gg. Sure this is about to be patched out and will become nonviable but this is just one extreme example of something that exists in sc2 that you wouldn't see in broodwar. There are plenty of other strategies or tactics that are similar to this on a lesser extent. Or builds where you literally can't do anything to defend. If you go some 1-1-1 in TvP with a fast raven and the protoss goes 3gate + voidray push you literally will always lose. There's almost no way you could "hold on" with like you could in broodwar. There's no "chance" factor anymore to let you pull off super greedy or risky builds...especially with high ground and/or things like worker drilling not existing anymore, if he has vision of your tank on the high ground you're not going to be holding and it's as simple as that. If he has a zealot or lings in your mineral line you can't drill and glitch them out. A risk in broodwar you took when you got overgreedy going for mineral lines was workers glitching the unit out and possibly your zealot kills nothing. But there is of course a chance it could kill 3-4 scvs making it worth it. But to have the risk/reward there was something that made playing and watching so exciting, you were always wondering what decisions the player will make next and if their risks will pay off or not. Sure there are risky builds in sc2 but the risk/reward factors you had in broodwar that made for the most exciting moments like reavers, mines, hold lurkers, these kinds of things just dont exist in the linear, repetitive world of sc2.
which leads me ultimately to my main point, the simplicity and lack of mind/control depth is just making sc2 seem too repetitive. Sure there are plenty of people who absolutly love sc2, and you probably won't see many top players really complain about this, they're all contracted to play sc2, most of them play a game as their career, who would complain... top players are interested in money/fame/sponsors/team, sure they want to play a fun game and sure they probably have fun playing. They want the masses to love the game and offer great services like coaching...but what do some of them really think? (specifically hardcore broodwar players- I remember asking around during the sc2 beta and I got some pretty interesting answers)
look at sc2 and where it is right now after being released for nearly 6 months. There are some really great builds and we see some great games, but there is so much total crap, builds like the 12 drone rush where zerg literally doesn't even have to micro the drones and it's really strong especially on these really dumb tiny maps like steppes of war. Or 2rax scv allins, or allins ALL the time in general TvZ on tiny maps... That's another repetitive aspect of sc2, same old maps. Iccup is pushing their maps and their maps are awesome, but you can never practice them on ladder and blizzard won't use them in tournaments like the GSL. The majority of the blizzard maps are so small the entire metagame of sc2 has developed around these small maps. All you'd have to do is add a natural expansion and like a bit of extra path to the broodwar map blood bath and you have the broodwar version of steppes of war. Can you imagine playing broodwar on maps this small? Giving the other player almost no time to react from when the units move out to when they are knocking on your door? 2 rax scv allin every game ez! Oh wait we see that ALL the time in top level TvZ's right now in sc2....In broodwar you could leave an scv or ling at the exit of their natural and if they move out, morph sunks, lay mines, make a bunker... with something like a 5 second walk time from natural to natural in sc2 this type of scouting/reactionary based play is gone. Now you just make the bunkers and if they dont move out sell them for full refund. No risk/reward at all whatsoever. In broodwar bunkers were awesome but there were risks, if you make too many, or in a slightly useless location you paid the price. In sc2 there is no price to pay.
Wheres the strategic depth in that? Where's the room for improvement? Where's the room for brilliant play?
Gah I know I said I didn't really want to try and compare broodwar to sc2 but dammit with sc2 working on replacing broodwar it's impossible not to at least draw comparisons through the elements of both games styles. Basically my bottom line is while sc2 has great potential, I'm watching it slip into a repetitive game that doesn't include nearly enough risk/reward for my liking, it's very linear which isn't all that bad but honestly can become boring. Maybe my preferences are just changing...but by not having these hit or miss type aspects that you saw in broodwar sc2 will run into dangers of just not being as deep as broodwar became.
can sc2 get to the deep levels we see in broodwar? of course, and that is why I reserve my judgments and don't hold bitter hatred against sc2 and I do have fun playing the game, I just have concerns that I felt others might be interested in reading about.
Damn that got way longer than I intended if you read all that I applaud you.
You are reminding me of how much of a rush winning a hard game of Brood War could be. It was so hard, but the satisfaction you got after winning a game was just something I have a really hard time explaining to gamers who don't play BW. But SC2 is less damanding so easier to play, but you never get the same satisfactions that you got out of winning a BW game with it. For now, at least.
It was really nice reading this. It summarizes a lot of my own feelings. I mainly play sc2 now (and i dont play much, have huge bonus pool...and i never played BW that much but the points you stated are clear)
In sc2 its a lot harder to win close games, you either dominate or get rolled...there really is less chaos and chance and you feel less accomplished.
Also, I really hate the static defense idea...the bunker/spine crawler thing really makes defenders advantage really poor. Instead of morphing sunks, its almost like, should i unburrow (not even build) spine crawler? he might come attack and I cant land in time........darn spine crawlers are so friggin frustrating for no reason...
great read. you really nailed a few things about sc2 that I couldn't quite put my finger on (not saying this in the "YES YOU NAILED THEM" sorta way but you just described something about sc2 that I sorta always felt but could never put it in terms of words).
I can't tell you how many times I have jumped out of my chair screaming "FUCK YEAH!" when i beat a good player in BW. And how many times i've been like "that was ez" when i win on SC2.
Agree. I played BW for years and years. I loved SC2 when the beta released... but I burned out so quickly. It just didn't grab me, and I've barely touched the game since release aside from playing the campaign.
I doubt I'll go back to BW ever, but still, I do wish SC2 had more of that "F*** YEAH I'M AWESOME" feeling when you win. A lot of the time it's just like, "o look he rushed blink tech and my 1 cloaked banshee wins the game gg", or other such nonsense that doesn't really leave you with a sense of accomplishment.
Sure occasionally I'll have a game where I won due to micro/decisions, but a lot of the time I really felt like I just a-moved, or watched my opponent a-move into me, and just sorta randomly won the resulting battle.
i like how you begin by saying that you don't want to bash sc2 and then bash sc2
i agree with you regarding the things you said about the depth of sc2, but I think the answer to the question "will sc2 get to the deep levels we see in broodwar?" is no (although I would love love love to be proven wrong)
On December 31 2010 09:17 Crunchums wrote: i like how you begin by saying that you don't want to bash sc2 and then bash sc2
i agree with you regarding the things you said about the depth of sc2, but I think the answer to the question "will sc2 get to the deep levels we see in broodwar?" is no (although I would love love love to be proven wrong)
yeah funny how that happened. and I don't even really hate sc2 I enjoy playing it for what it is... T_T
I've read your whole blog and I must say I enjoyed it quite a bit.
You've cleared a lot of things for me, as I haven't played SC2 yet (no, I'm not a hardcore hater), but I was seriously considering it. Those feelings you've described are exactly the reason why I still play BW after all these years. And BW is pretty much the only game I play because I would get bored of other games too fast. So thank you for this blog, it made me appreciate BW even more as I took it for granted for so long. I might give SC2 a try in near future, but I can foresee those exact feelings you're having happening to me which will most likely make me bored of it quite fast.
SC2 is fun.....but the excitement left me approximately two weeks after release. Now I can only play one or two games of it before I get utterly bored out of my mind.
BW though.....I guess I can stream for four hours and still be fine. The only thing that keeps me from playing more is college apps and the fact that my hands died on me.
Wow, excellently done! I often talk with my brother about why I don't play SC2 anymore, and it's just hard to explain. A lot of SC2 players (my brother included) think that it's the greatest game ever, and honestly I would agree- if there was no Broodwar. Personally, I just find the game boring/bleh compared to bw. Naturally, I just went back to bw. Now I'm having way more fun with bw then I ever before, I've actually taken time to sit down and learn the game.
I find SC2 fun, honestly it's not a bad game (the thing I like most about SC2 is the fact it brought me back into starcraft as a whole :p). But it comes no where close to bw. I really hope some changes will be made to make the game more interesting. I love the money, the players, the casters of SC2- just not the game it self. SC2 just feels cheap and dumb. Plus the whole map thing, and Blizzards involvement is just stupid.
I really get the feeling that a lot of people (broodwar players mostly) are starting to get disenchanted with SC2, I think they're going to be holding out for the next expansion. If HotS doesn't add significantly then I'm not sure how long SC2 is going to last.
This is the main difference between between playing BW and SC2: BW is more "exhausting" to play, due to its difficulty and how much effort you have to put in. Alot of times I would only play a few games of BW because I would be too lazy to dedicate the effort required to win, despite how good it felt when you do finally win. SC2 is doesn't exhaust me like that, but I normally stop after a couple of games because it gets too boring to mass game it.
I really get the feeling that a lot of people (broodwar players mostly) are starting to get disenchanted with SC2, I think they're going to be holding out for the next expansion. If HotS doesn't add significantly then I'm not sure how long SC2 is going to last.
The strength of allins in SC2 is suboptimal for "pro" players, and I am not optimistic that blizzard is willing to make changes to the game on the scale that would be needed to change that. HotS might add/remove some units, but I doubt it will significantly change {warp gates / inject larvae / high ground mechanics}. And even if HotS is going to magically fix everything, it's at least 2 years away.
I completely and totally agree with the entire post, especially the risk/reward part. So many things in SC2 have such high reward but almost no risk, and I think that's partly one of the reasons BW was just so much better.
My feelings exactly--partly the reason why my RTS Club only holds BW LANs (other than there being no SCII LAN, people refusing to pay $60 for a game they're not really into, etc)
I wish there would be some BW events (Community, LANs, TL-Attack, etc), as I've really been missing those.
Saying what a lot of people have said, especially at the end. You can't do anything but lose if you're not prepared in SC2. That's what made SCBW so good. You could put down 2 sunks, wait for that marine push, delay it a bit with some lings, throw down 5 more sunks and hold off the push.
In SC2 on a map like Steppes, it's actually not possible to get a spine crawler made in your natural, even if you scout a terran before they even move down their own ramp. And even when you do make them, the terran can just run past because you can't block or sim city with them. That's just ZvT, but like you say, there are so many instances where SC2 falls down. It just sucks all the fun out of the game when there's absolutely nothing you can even hope to do to react, because there is no reaction involved in SC2. You do it wrong, you lose the game straight up.
I burned out after the beta + one month of the actual game. It just isn't as fun, there is a feeling of almost no accomplishment when you beat someone. Sure you could get to Diamond, feel great for two minutes and then realize everyone is also Diamond. SCII is a fun game and all, good for relaxing, but BW feels so much more fun and I agree with your post, but I think you forgot something. Brood war has Blue Goop!
I only play SC2 with my friends since i get easily bored after 5-10 games 1v1, 3v3 / 4v4 is fun but its nothing compared to a 3v3 / 4v4 BGH match with your friends.
On December 31 2010 10:25 FraCuS wrote: I only play SC2 with my friends since i get easily bored after 5-10 games 1v1, 3v3 / 4v4 is fun but its nothing compared to a 3v3 / 4v4 BGH match with your friends.
Haha, yup. The only reason I ever log into SC2 these days is for nexus wars or for team games where we just troll.
On December 31 2010 08:45 LuckyFool wrote: ....In broodwar you could leave an scv or ling at the exit of their natural and if they move out, morph sunks, lay mines, make a bunker... with something like a 5 second walk time from natural to natural in sc2 this type of scouting/reactionary based play is gone. Now you just make the bunkers and if they dont move out sell them for full refund. No risk/reward at all whatsoever. In broodwar bunkers were awesome but there were risks, if you make too many, or in a slightly useless location you paid the price. In sc2 there is no price to pay.
I'm highlighting this because this is exactly how I feel...sc2 just doesn't have the same sense of urgency. Brood war you find something coming you glitch out scvs on the ramp, on their zealots, on their lings/hydras, etc as you try to get that bunker up or siege mode. Sc2 has no defensive reaction...no mines scrambled up, bunker takes forever to build if it's reactionary, etc etc. From a spectator's point, there is no more early game pivotal moment like trying to snipe a tank with goons. All you get in sc2 early on is some 2 rax versus zerg or some voidray 3 gate vs a FE terran (or a 4 gate protoss)
There's no excitement is either of those. For a 2rax even if the zerg holds it's not like the terran is screwed over. For the voidray vs FE more often than not the voidray simply wins. There are no worker drills that glitch out the same way, no 33 kill goons microing against bbs marines. Only true worker drill I can recall in sc2 is fruitdealer vs ogsinca. There's just no early game defense that is exciting.
I really think one of the biggest reasons I thought ZvP was so fun in BW was because of how hard controlling my masses of units became starting from the midgame. The whole frantic positioning and attacking and microing against storms was so mind-wracking yet so epic and fun in its own way. I've never felt that same midgame to lategame exhileration while playing SC2, although SC2 does have its own fun aspects. I just really miss that feeling of being overwhelmed in SC2; how my own army would overwhelm my ability to control it as much as it could completely overwhelm my opponent - how I know that both I and my opponent are having extreme difficulties when engaging and that in the end winning or losing can lie entirely upon my opponent's skill in landing those storms and my ability to predict and dodge them.
I feel the same way mostly. I'm hoping it will all change eventually. And that even though there are all these things that make the game easier now, we will find strategies to push ourselves even further and make the games more interesting to watch.
For example, when I'm watching games the feeling I get is similar to watching a broodwar game, but without all the sexy harassment and mind games, and only the macro part (and a messy macro part at that). Like the players just haven't reached that "next" level yet. The next level, where players start learning how to take risks and make them pay off. I just hope that when we get to that level, it isn't as un-satisfying and boring as this one. And that we will be able to win games through means other than abusing weak imbalances.
This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think it also comes from the fact they had to tune down a lot of units in SC2 from BW, for example, lings - lings are fucking SCARY in BW, but in SC2, they tuned them down a lot due to autosurround - and in that, there's no thrilling, epic lurker/ling vs MM surrounds where the zerg can JUST hold by brilliant positioning and using lurkers well - highlighting another problem - there's no units that can really help stage a comeback. Lurkers, defilers, arbiters - we've seen AMAZING comebacks with these units, and likewise with, for example, zeal bombing and mine dragging; they set the scene for amazing games to happen.
I'd really love for the bw foreigner proscene to come alive again, we just need someone with the initiative to contact sponsors and casters for tournaments.
On December 31 2010 09:01 CaucasianAsian wrote: I can't tell you how many times I have jumped out of my chair screaming "FUCK YEAH!" when i beat a good player in BW. And how many times i've been like "that was ez" when i win on SC2.
It's just not the same T_T!
Oh man I can totally relate. Winning a game in bw feels sooo good. Winning an sc2 game is just like 'meh.'
Well written. This is what a lot of people feel, I think, but just can't write down.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think so.
It's a long hard road lol, an enjoyable one though.
I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
I think this might be the reason I stopped playing 1v1's or ladder in SC2. I never played BW, but at the beginning of beta when I was winning I felt a great sigh of relief, that I played well and am moving up in the world.
Ever since I got to diamond the motivation to play was gone because I don't get some sense of accomplishment after winning 1v1's save for 1 in every 20 games, and averaging 14 minutes a game, I'm not willing to spend almost 5 hours to get ONE satisfying game where I felt like it was worth it.
You DC guys might hate me for it (cept jane and eskimo-alex) but in League of Legends I either got a retarded loss where I just stop caring, or usually the wins either you shit on the opponent, which actually feels good, or its a really sick game, or its a really REALLY sick comeback, but you never think shit that was a gay win. so 50% of the time I'm satisfied and 30% of that I feel fucking amazing.
That said, I'm quitting LoL but thats beside the point, game itself lost its luster too.
Its one reason why I prefer watching streams, especially of SSF4 lately, the hype involved and the play that happens is awesome to watch and gives me a nice rush, and games only last like 3-4 minutes tops, how awesome is that.
The thing I DO like doing is playing team games in SC2, blasphemy in the world of competitive gaming, I know, but playing 2v2s, 3v3s, and 4v4's with friends is WAY more fun to me than playing random nobodies on ladder for an unsatisfying win. In team games you can fuck around and lose, or fuck around and win, which is awesome.
1v1's have lost its luster to me, obviously I'm just a low diamond speaking, but as someone who loves competitive play but doesn't have the motivation to compete in a dull practice lifestyle, watching streams and other games or dabbling with other games has been what I need.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
I've found that the people who do this are the people who want to play SC2 just for cash, instead of playing it for the love and passion of the game. It's the reason I resent most of the BW -> SC2 proes: immediately after the SC2 beta came out, most of them switched.
Maybe I just want a game to be actually good before it turns into an esport, instead of "it's an esport so everyone plays it for $". Either way, it hasn't been proven for lasting effect yet, and it'll turn out like WC3 - had huge potential and huge tournaments when it first came out, and then died out.
On December 31 2010 10:48 simpy wrote: This post made me want BW xD, kinda new to RTS games, SC2 being my first real one but I've played fairly consistantly since it's release. I mean it is fun but I find that I am playing more and more team/fun games just because of the very linear style of play in 1v1.
Would it be worth buying a copy of BW now?
Or should I just stick around for more patches to come for SC2.
Ah wonderful, I didn't see the part about the DL client before! It will have to wait until after new years unfortunately though
Also I'm just curious will playing a lot of BW also improve my sc2 plays?
Yes, just as playing a lot of SC2 will improve your BW, and every other RTS you ever play. The games are very similar, and many factors such as decision making, army management, ect. are analogous across both games (any RTS for that matter). Of course, BW is a lot more difficult to get the hang of, because there is no MBS, automine, smart casting, ect. but it's definitely manageable.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
This post describes a pretty fascinating conundrum.
The two things that killed sc2 imo is that blizz is controlling it very tightly like the way it did with wc3 tft. especially the map pool. over 4 years of tft that i have watched (2004-2008) the map pool never changed, which was really annoying because there was very little originality.
Also, the attack projectiles of units are way too fast in this game. Back in broodwar, the attack projectiles of goons were super slow and it was awesome watchign whether a salvo of attacks will kill a reaver/tank/etc.
On December 31 2010 09:01 CaucasianAsian wrote: I can't tell you how many times I have jumped out of my chair screaming "FUCK YEAH!" when i beat a good player in BW. And how many times i've been like "that was ez" when i win on SC2.
It's just not the same T_T!
Oh man I can totally relate. Winning a game in bw feels sooo good. Winning an sc2 game is just like 'meh.'
Well written. This is what a lot of people feel, I think, but just can't write down.
I remember winning a 40 minute TvT and pumping my fists. I this is the only game (and sport because I also play tennis) where I actually pump fists and mean it.
Then I remember playing games in SC2 and it felt really robotic.
Yeah, I agree with Zlasher. I used to play LoL and I remember quite a few memorable comebacks. Probably the most exciting was being down two team members and coming back in an hour or longer game against shit talking randoms. And we did it by such a slim margin that if we had downed their nexus one or two seconds later we would have gotten owned and counter pushed. In Starcraft 2 I've had comebacks. But I've never had a comeback where I feel I pulled something amazing off to warrant it. All the comebacks I have had are the opponent getting overconfident and doing something really stupid or not being able to keep up late game macro wise.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
I've found that the people who do this are the people who want to play SC2 just for cash, instead of playing it for the love and passion of the game. It's the reason I resent most of the BW -> SC2 proes: immediately after the SC2 beta came out, most of them switched.
Maybe I just want a game to be actually good before it turns into an esport, instead of "it's an esport so everyone plays it for $". Either way, it hasn't been proven for lasting effect yet, and it'll turn out like WC3 - had huge potential and huge tournaments when it first came out, and then died out.
Well you have to make money somehow so I don't resent them for switching, but I do get annoyed when people try to hype a mediocre SC2 game up to the level of BW.
I agree with almost everything you mentioned in your blog. However not all the things mentioned about SCII are bad i feel.
For instance; the intensity of BW was both what made it so great and what made it unplayable at times. I loved BW and still do. But i can only play very few games in a row because it is so demanding and intense. i simply have to step away because after a big game (whether u win or lose) I just feel like a wreck. In SCII I can continue playing. Even though i never mass game, I like the fact that i feel I can.
With that being said, i'm still feeling concerned with some aspects of SCII like the strength of "stupid" all-ins on small maps. Which are a big part of the map pool. The fact that the game rewards the kinds of rather skill-les "strategies" is not very satisfying.
I also agree on the lack of "Danger moments" in SCII which sometimes make the game feel somewhat pre decided and generic. This is not only something u notice while playing, but also as a spectator. So even though i don't really play BW anymore, and really enjoy SCII i actually mostly watch BW as a spectator. It's just more exciting.
I hope and have faith in the development of SCII though. here's for hoping
Man I've been playing both sc2 and sc:bw for the past month or so and I was having the exact same feeling.
When I won an sc2 game I would think that it was easy or that I didn't have to do much. When I would be winning a broodwar game I would get super excited and happy.
Looking at how Flash/Bisu/Jaedong play leaves me in total awe. But looking at the current pro scene of sc2 kinda disgusts me at times honestly. Many people who are recognized as "pro" are just doing dumb plays with all ins etc. True sc2 still needs to be figured out, but with tiny maps and minimum mechanics requirement, you will see people like BitByBit take the spot of people like NaDa.
Most sc2 games seem as follows (slightly exaggerated :p ): 1) make units 2) put in one control group 3) fight in the middle (with minor spells (that can be smartly cast) or small positional adjustment as an excuse for micro 4) repeat. There isn't really any sense of timing in the game yet.
Not that I'm hating on the game, ofcourse all the automation and multi selection capabilities that blizzard introduced are an improvement, but the game doesn't feel as challenging or rich as brood war does. I do have a feeling that sc2 can be refined to the status of brood war, but that would require a lot of work - maps, units, balance etc.
For now, to be honest, sc2 is staying on top by clinging on to the legacy of broodwar.
Thanks to the OP for stating out the thoughts of many BW-to-SC2 players.
Lately there have been moments when I questioned the point of playing SC2, whether I should really spending time and effort getting good at this game and whether I am enjoying it for what it is or just because it was BW sequel.
In the last 10 years of playing BW I never ever questioned why I spent so much time on it. The game was just unquestionably good.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
while i agree with a lot of this, I find the reason I play sc2 instead of bw even though I think BW is a superior game is that the sc2 community is huge and much more active especially the foreign scene. I have 0 friends who play BW now and like 10 who play SC2 actively. Not to mention all the foreign sc2 tournaments and content that is being generated.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
Because the game that's best today literally died overnight when sc2 came out. at least from a foreign standpoint.
foreign broodwar died instantly when sc2 came out. I've spent plenty of time talking about this in the past. Almost everyone I knew and 90% of the community left broodwar for sc2. All of the big foreign tournaments that were fun to follow, all the colorful players and personalities, all of the foreign professional excitement vanished instantly. there will probably never be another team liquid starleague for broodwar, there will never be broodwar at blizzcon or wcgs as epic as 2003-2008.
when sc2 came out foreign broodwar players were presented with two games/options now. On one hand you have broodwar, the game they love which has a server with a couple hundred people still playing and no real tournaments or events with coverage. (there are still korean servers/tournaments, courage but that's all korean and not very inviting for a foreign player) or you have sc2 which might be far less of a game or much less exciting depth wise, but that's where all their friends are and hundreds of thousands players and dozens of streams with thousands watching at almost all times, and massive tournaments and lans, huge coverage and all of the top players around......
If broodwar was completely unaffected by sc2 I would probably have continued playing broodwar and not even looked at sc2 the same way I never even considered or looked at commend and conquer or supreme commander.
sc2 was not just another game in terms of how it directly affected broodwar and its community.
Oh Luckyfool, you really summed up all of my thoughts in an appropriately not short rant. Even if SC2's proscene continues to grow and evolve, the sense that you really triumphed over your opponent in a battle of wits and clicking is just not there in SC2.
After playing iccup and just having my heart pound like crazy in massive battles during 200/200 macro games in BW, SC2's often "gimmicky" playstyle is not half as exciting. Viva la Brood War.
I agree with everything. For me personally, I can only sit down and play 2 hours max of SC2, when playing BW you would have to pull me off my chair to get me to stop playing. There were so many things to do in BW like chill in chat channels with your clan or just watching replays with friends. Not to mention the maps are terrible -- even the UMS.
On December 31 2010 10:09 Loser777 wrote: I wish there would be some BW events (Community, LANs, TL-Attack, etc), as I've really been missing those.
ICCup has been organizing many events recently, including A-B rank tournaments and ICCup Attack! The problem is that we don't get much exposure because TL doesn't feature our events. I've made posts in the BW General and BW Tournaments forums whenever there's an event, but it seems a lot of people only check those for the Proleague threads and ignore everything else
TT____TT when you consume and swarm and defend the terran push at your natural, and then push out to rape the shit out of his mnm tank it's the best feeling in the world. whereas in sc2 it's kind of like ok... i'm gonna move my raven out here and drop a pdd... stim... yay all his stuff died go me. bw is so much more intense, but it definitely affects how many games you can play; 10 games a week was a lot for me but now i'm playing like 20 games of sc2 a day.
I played Broodwar for 12 years, and like a lot of people, never became great at it. And there came a point where I felt I could never get any better than I already was, and there was no room for improvement no matter what I did because I just couldn't get any better mechanically no matter how hard I tried. It didn't make me stop playing, but it did make things somewhat predictable (though not quite boring) because I could tell in the first minute of a game and sometimes sooner whether I had won or lost.
I know the game is young, and it may happen again the same way, but so far I don't have that same feeling of getting stuck on the plateau I used to have in BW. In this game I feel like I can still get better, even if certain aspects of my game are a hindrance. That may have to do with things outside of the game itself, like the matchmaking system, and things like that. But so far I have to say as far as experience is concerned, I am liking SC2 a lot better than broodwar. But I'm a nuub, what do I know?
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
Because the game that's best today literally died overnight when sc2 came out. at least from a foreign standpoint.
foreign broodwar died instantly when sc2 came out. I've spent plenty of time talking about this in the past. Almost everyone I knew and 90% of the community left broodwar for sc2. All of the big foreign tournaments that were fun to follow, all the colorful players and personalities, all of the foreign professional excitement vanished instantly. there will probably never be another team liquid starleague for broodwar, there will never be broodwar at blizzcon or wcgs as epic as 2003-2008.
when sc2 came out foreign broodwar players were presented with two games/options now. On one hand you have broodwar, the game they love which has a server with a couple hundred people still playing and no real tournaments or events with coverage. (there are still korean servers/tournaments, courage but that's all korean and not very inviting for a foreign player) or you have sc2 which might be far less of a game or much less exciting depth wise, but that's where all their friends are and hundreds of thousands players and dozens of streams with thousands watching at almost all times, and massive tournaments and lans, huge coverage and all of the top players around......
If broodwar was completely unaffected by sc2 I would probably have continued playing broodwar and not even looked at sc2 the same way I never even considered or looked at commend and conquer or supreme commander.
sc2 was not just another game in terms of how it directly affected broodwar and its community.
yea I've found it quite disgusting how fast most of the community just left once sc2 came out. like I thought the BW community was one that wouldnt just flock to the new shiny game all the time (I meant it's based on a 12 year old game ffs) but i guess name-value really does mean more to most people than I thought it did.
You could have not have expressed my sentiments and feelings any better. I mean, l agree with everything you said. I am not a Brood War homer or a SC2 hater either, (I love both games and played them at pretty high levels) but I can't help but feel the same way. In Brood War, it just has that feeling where you have control over everything...it's like chess, like a tactical warfare on the computer with you being in the center of all things that happen. SC2, not quite. It's not the same excitement.
I think Luckyfool has really elegantly said what everyone is feeling. I cannot agree more with everything.
There's no elegance to sc2. There's no connection between units and player. There's no way to look at a player and tell whether he's incredible, or just pretty good. It's all the same. Battles are linear. Fights are so much lower apm than in BW. It makes games not a constant struggle to outdo your opponent, and that's why BW was the best game of all time.
It's not that Sc2 is bad, but it isn't at it's full potential yet. If we can see a more interesting combination of units , new different tech paths and a stoppage of all the all-ins.... It's not the best.
Hopefully things DO change.
And i'm glad to see so many people in this thread feeling the same way I do! BW will not die.
On December 31 2010 10:57 Chef wrote: I don't really understand why people are always saying 'maybe one day sc2 will be as good as bw, so I will keep playing it.' Why not just play/watch the game you like best today? "Wow that game was almost like a BW game!" You know what game was exactly like a BroodWar game? A BroodWar game.
I understand the excitement of a new game and figuring out new things, but if your ultimate hope is that the game will be like a game that already exists, it seems kind of pointless. BW isn't just good because of nostalgia, it's good because it's actually a damn good game that's stood the test of time.
I'm not saying anything about the validity of sc2. I don't personally like it, so I don't play it. I just want to point out that it seems silly to try and make one game like another, when the game you're trying to make it like already exists. IF you love BroodWar and think it's really fun, you should come back and play it If you find yourself wondering why SC2 isn't as fun as BroodWar, you should slap yourself and ask why you're playing a game you don't like as much. Likewise, if you find another game more fun than BroodWar, you wouldn't feel it necessary to play BroodWar just cause it's legendary and you're a fool if you don't like it.
Because the game that's best today literally died overnight when sc2 came out. at least from a foreign standpoint.
foreign broodwar died instantly when sc2 came out. I've spent plenty of time talking about this in the past. Almost everyone I knew and 90% of the community left broodwar for sc2. All of the big foreign tournaments that were fun to follow, all the colorful players and personalities, all of the foreign professional excitement vanished instantly. there will probably never be another team liquid starleague for broodwar, there will never be broodwar at blizzcon or wcgs as epic as 2003-2008.
when sc2 came out foreign broodwar players were presented with two games/options now. On one hand you have broodwar, the game they love which has a server with a couple hundred people still playing and no real tournaments or events with coverage. (there are still korean servers/tournaments, courage but that's all korean and not very inviting for a foreign player) or you have sc2 which might be far less of a game or much less exciting depth wise, but that's where all their friends are and hundreds of thousands players and dozens of streams with thousands watching at almost all times, and massive tournaments and lans, huge coverage and all of the top players around......
If broodwar was completely unaffected by sc2 I would probably have continued playing broodwar and not even looked at sc2 the same way I never even considered or looked at commend and conquer or supreme commander.
sc2 was not just another game in terms of how it directly affected broodwar and its community.
yea I've found it quite disgusting how fast most of the community just left once sc2 came out. like I thought the BW community was one that wouldnt just flock to the new shiny game all the time (I meant it's based on a 12 year old game ffs) but i guess name-value really does mean more to most people than I thought it did.
That's partly because of how hard TL pushed it (throwing BroodWar forums down to the bottom of the page and other not so nice stuff), but to say BroodWar died is a huge misconception. BroodWar didn't die at all, not even for the foreign community. Just because you moved because you wanted to go where the flood of new users and easy competition was, doesn't mean everyone did. People still write about BroodWar, talk about the players amiably, play BroodWar, etc. It just doesn't seem as big because we've got all the new users who will hop onto the next big thing in a year still, so it's making BroodWar look small by comparison. But whenever people talk about SC2 it is usually not very amiably. All the players suck, the games are boring, the streams aren't worth watching, the tourneys are full of people doing uninteresting but very powerful strategies... All I hear from people is complaints about SC2. The only thing people like about SC2 is TLO, and even his presence isn't really felt anymore. Day9 is pushing SC2 and even still people know this game is not meeting their expectations.
To say BroodWar died is really insulting and just not true. People are always talking about how much they miss BW, like there's some wall stopping them from coming back. There isn't. Just come back if you like BW more, it's still alive and your BW-related contributions will be well appreciated.
I don't know. It is really asinine to hear someone talk about how much they miss BroodWar and then claim that BW is dead lol. You are defeating your own argument and proving BW is still alive in you. Guess what, you've got a thread full of people who agree with you LOL. Play BW and shut up about how much you miss it, ya drama queens.
I mean how insane is it that people play SC2 thinking "one day this will be fun" !!? Would you do that for any other game? Why do you play SC2 like it's an investment in your future? That is so bizarre. Only the internet.
SC2 is a more mental game IMO (rather than mechanical), more suited for repeated sessions with individual players than playing against John Doe on the ladder.
I completely agree. I recall one BW game in particular that I won that I will never forget. It was just some random ICCUP game, zvt, where I was far behind my opponent. I just remember thinking that it was gg the whole time, but I held in there for some reason, and I ended up making the most improbable comeback ever. At times he was almost triple my supply (50 vs 150 supply), and yet, I was able to hold on and comeback with nydus/defiler defense at expos and hold lurkers that slowly whittled away at his army. I felt like freaking savior that game, defending expos with literally a defiler, a handful of lings, and few lurkers, against huge bio balls; bouncing back and forth between expos with nydus and picking off vessels/dropships with plague/scourge.
Everything was all me, and the sense of accomplishment I got when I saw the "gg" was something I'll never forget. I had control over that entire win and every move I made to stay in the game. After I won, I was literally shaking, to the extent that I couldn't even type properly to save the replay. My legs/arms were just spasming for some reason and uncontrollably shaking, that I couldn't even stand up properly for like 5 minutes. I don't think I'll ever be able to achieve that same experience again in SC2, simply due to the way the game is designed and the way games actually pan out. If i'm down 50 to 150 supply in SC2, there is no way in hell I'm coming back. No amount of mechanics or decision making will allow me to outplay my opponent to allow such a comeback. It's much harder to give up a lead in SC2 without that "uncertainty" factor that you mention, and that's where I feel SC2 is lacking in many aspects.
Its going to take 2 expansions and multiple patches to get SC2 to the point to where these factors come into play. I think one day we will get there but 100% agree with you as of now.
On December 31 2010 13:44 Renoir_scII wrote: SC2 is a more mental game IMO (rather than mechanical), more suited for repeated sessions with individual players than playing against John Doe on the ladder.
i find a lot of new sc2 players seem to think this, but its not true. bw was MORE of a mental game AND more of a mechanical game at least for now.
I completely agree with you at the current state and the maps are pretty bad; however I will have to sarcastically disagree with your comment about you winning the game because of playing well and not some silly build order; only because I remember casting that grudge match when you won almost every game with a 2fact timing attack; with the exception of the one game where CaucasianAsian went DT's (another BOWin). That series was almost as anticlimactic as the Bo5 between Flash and Jaedong that included 2 6 pools and a proxy rax.
Blizzard is ruining high level game play by catering to everyone, which is probably why the maps are so small. Also pro's generally don't like seeing the non-ladder maps in tournaments so the iCCup Maps rarely get played.
Hopefully this upcomming "esport" patch will change things, my hope is larger maps unlock as you progress through the rankings; which in my opinion would make ladder much more enjoyable. People literally wouldn't be able to get to Diamond by doing the same all in every game. I'm still a bit upset they removed Kulas and Desert Oasis from the map pool, the two largest maps.
To say BroodWar died is really insulting and just not true. People are always talking about how much they miss BW, like there's some wall stopping them from coming back. There isn't. Just come back if you like BW more, it's still alive and your BW-related contributions will be well appreciated.
I don't know. It is really asinine to hear someone talk about how much they miss BroodWar and then claim that BW is dead lol. You are defeating your own argument and proving BW is still alive in you. Guess what, you've got a thread full of people who agree with you LOL. Play BW and shut up about how much you miss it, ya drama queens.
I mean how insane is it that people play SC2 thinking "one day this will be fun" !!? Would you do that for any other game? Why do you play SC2 like it's an investment in your future? That is so bizarre. Only the internet.
How is it not true? foreign broodwar is as dead as dead can get. What events are there to play for other than laddering vs joe schmo once in a while or playing in an iccup tournament that has no coverage? if that doesn't define dead I'm not sure what does.
outside of that there's literally nothing competitive to do with broodwar anymore...
Sure there's a pocket of players still playing on iccup and diehards following the korean broodwar scene, but I personally watched my surroundings in broodwar get dismantled overnight when sc2 was released (and it was pretty shitty) and you're saying I should keep playing like nothing happened.
On December 31 2010 13:59 LuckyFool wrote: How is it not true? foreign broodwar is as dead as dead can get. What events are there to play for other than laddering vs joe schmo once in a while or playing in an iccup tournament that has no coverage? if that doesn't define dead I'm not sure what does.
outside of that there's literally nothing competitive to do with broodwar anymore...
Sure there's a pocket of players still playing on iccup and diehards following the korean broodwar scene, but I personally watched my surroundings in broodwar get dismantled overnight when sc2 was released (and it was pretty shitty) and you're saying I should keep playing like nothing happened.
We're trying to help revive the scene at ICCup, but as I said before, we don't get much exposure due to TL not featuring our events. I've casted 6 ICCup events in the past couple of months (3 ICCup Attacks, an A-B rank tour, a clan tour, and last seasons CL finals), but only one of those was featured. We made threads announcing them in BW General and BW Tournaments, but it seems a lot of people only check the Proleague threads there. We've got more events planned for the future, so if you want to help, do check the forums as well as iccup.com for announcements and increase our viewer count. Hopefully if enough people are interested, the TL staff will take notice. The scene certainly isn't as big as it was before SC2, but I don't think it's fair to say we're not trying.
Edit: We also have an ICCup Twitter account that you can follow, and GG.net has been announcing our events as well. Ironically they've been more supportive than TL so far.
I always considered foreign SC to mean people talking about Korean Professionals in a language I could understand, us having our own favourite players, and translations and just generally being fans of professional SC. I never really cared about the foreign scene after WGT and the gap between Koreans and the rest of the world widened so much. Sure, I enjoyed TSL, but the foreign SC scene was always based on the professional Koreans :S GG.net was the site that focused on the foreign players, and look how popular they are hahaha.
I figure why would I want to watch people who play SC as a hobby when I could watch professionals? It's like women's leagues in physical sports. Why watch them when the men's ones are so much more competitive? Right now professional SC2 is basically that league that is not worth watching because there is stuff that is so much better, and there's more of it. If you really want something new and not figured out, sure I guess SC2 is for you, but it's clear you don't when you say things like you miss BW. I honestly can't relate to the loss of 'top' foreign players switching to SC2 because I never really followed them in the first place. BNet attack was fun, but in the end TL has always been about the Koreans.
While I haven't read the entire blog + 80 replies, this doesn't really have anything to do with SC2 vs BW.
The majority of your posts, people, are simply dealing with the fact that you burned out or couldn't deal with the nerves required to improve further.
Regarding tactics and skill: guess what, there are maybe 10 foreigners right now who are good and creative. Zerg can't be creative in this game due to bad design and having to defend all game (although this has some exceptions, like underused roach drops or nydus play which we have seen in a few GSL games).
When someone like Jaedong or Flash switches over and starts playing T or P, you will cry your eyes out at things, because you didn't think of them first, because NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE practices like koreans do. There is sooooo much you can do with 350 apm and perfect control in this game, things that foreigners use to spam and macro like in bw (yeah, you know who I'm talking about).
The problem is that it's the nature of people to take the easy way out and brute force their wins with perfect macro and then a-moving. There's absolutely a ton of possibilities to come back in sc2 as well as there were in BW, you people just aren't looking hard enough for those games. And guess what, the majority of BW games are also terrible. 2 4-pools in the MSL finals, 2 hatch hydra busts in ZvP, unpunished 14 nexus rolling over much better terrans.
Bottom line: if I wanted to nitpick and find shit about BW like everyone is doing it about SC2 in this thread blindly agreeing and cut out the good parts - I could do it too. SC2 is helping e-sports grow more than BW has (in the foreigner scene) or ever will now. When new maps come out none of this will be an issue and you'll look back on this blog and realize how stupid most of it was.
I think the way the game "feels" has a lot to do with it as well. The sounds and the graphics were much more crisp. So when a science vessel died to scourge, or a lurker popped to stimmed marines, it was simply rewarding as an observer to hear and see it. There's nothing even remotely comparable in SC2. Everything looks and sounds so diluted (especially unit movement collision - swarms of zerglings and marines look like schools of fish).
On December 31 2010 16:39 Saracen wrote: I think the way the game "feels" has a lot to do with it as well. The sounds and the graphics were much more crisp. So when a science vessel died to scourge, or a lurker popped to stimmed marines, it was simply rewarding as an observer to hear and see it. There's nothing even remotely comparable in SC2. Everything looks and sounds so diluted (especially unit movement collision - swarms of zerglings and marines look like schools of fish).
Even though "feels" is subjective, I kinda agree there.You could actually TELL who's winning just by listening to the game. Doesn't have to do anything with the OP though.
Bottom line: if I wanted to nitpick and find shit about BW like everyone is doing it about SC2 in this thread blindly agreeing and cut out the good parts - I could do it too. SC2 is helping e-sports grow more than BW has (in the foreigner scene) or ever will now. When new maps come out none of this will be an issue and you'll look back on this blog and realize how stupid most of it was.
who cares about the growth of esports if it means the death (at least in the foreign scene) of the only good game to ever be an esport?
Bottom line: if I wanted to nitpick and find shit about BW like everyone is doing it about SC2 in this thread blindly agreeing and cut out the good parts - I could do it too. SC2 is helping e-sports grow more than BW has (in the foreigner scene) or ever will now. When new maps come out none of this will be an issue and you'll look back on this blog and realize how stupid most of it was.
who cares about the growth of esports if it means the death (at least in the foreign scene) of the only good game to ever be an esport?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's the only good game. Broodwar is an amazing game, but there are plenty of other good games out there- you just don't appreciate them.
Also, I think it's more than the maps that are wrong with SC2, the maps are a large part, but I almost see them as a scapegoat for much larger problems that SC2 has.
Great stuff Luckyfool. Nice to hear that some other people aren't getting sucked in by the hype of sc2 and are actually looking at the game and realizing it is not all that it's hyped up to be.
Your vids were great btw, dunno if you still make em but I loved em.
yeah i expect sc2 to grow out of style and die, smothering out bw in the process. so they'll ruin both games.
but that's to pessimistic.
In bw cheeses are actually creative and fun because the risk is so high. Do you love Boxer? Do you love when he cheeses? Of course you do! But do you like Foxer when he cheeses?? HELL NO!! Cuz it's the SAME BULLSHIT over and over.
Boxer cheese/micro is phenominal, it's something you CANNOT do and you jizz your pants watching it. Foxer? Same o' bull over and over, which is just retarded.
On December 31 2010 16:39 Saracen wrote: I think the way the game "feels" has a lot to do with it as well. The sounds and the graphics were much more crisp. So when a science vessel died to scourge, or a lurker popped to stimmed marines, it was simply rewarding as an observer to hear and see it. There's nothing even remotely comparable in SC2. Everything looks and sounds so diluted (especially unit movement collision - swarms of zerglings and marines look like schools of fish).
Totoally true!!
Remember stop lurker on marines!? FUCK THOSE MARINES WERE SCREAMING AS THEY EXPLODED!!!
Now what? we get banelings that "poof" and the marines simply.. drooop down. What retard.
Nothing beats scouring science vessel haha the sound is so comical!! OMG oMG!
Bottom line: if I wanted to nitpick and find shit about BW like everyone is doing it about SC2 in this thread blindly agreeing and cut out the good parts - I could do it too. SC2 is helping e-sports grow more than BW has (in the foreigner scene) or ever will now. When new maps come out none of this will be an issue and you'll look back on this blog and realize how stupid most of it was.
who cares about the growth of esports if it means the death (at least in the foreign scene) of the only good game to ever be an esport?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's the only good game. Broodwar is an amazing game, but there are plenty of other good games out there- you just don't appreciate them.
Also, I think it's more than the maps that are wrong with SC2, the maps are a large part, but I almost see them as a scapegoat for much larger problems that SC2 has.
I guess i should rephrase it to "the only game worth being an esport"
God this thread reminded me of that 2 hatch ZvT feeling.. When you won a game with nothing but a handful of lings, mutas, and badassery Dancing your mutas around, cutting your opponent down to their knees.. Beautiful
Bottom line: if I wanted to nitpick and find shit about BW like everyone is doing it about SC2 in this thread blindly agreeing and cut out the good parts - I could do it too. SC2 is helping e-sports grow more than BW has (in the foreigner scene) or ever will now. When new maps come out none of this will be an issue and you'll look back on this blog and realize how stupid most of it was.
who cares about the growth of esports if it means the death (at least in the foreign scene) of the only good game to ever be an esport?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's the only good game. Broodwar is an amazing game, but there are plenty of other good games out there- you just don't appreciate them.
Also, I think it's more than the maps that are wrong with SC2, the maps are a large part, but I almost see them as a scapegoat for much larger problems that SC2 has.
I guess i should rephrase it to "the only game worth being an esport"
there are games other than BW worth being an esport - i'm thinking fighting games
On December 31 2010 13:59 LuckyFool wrote: How is it not true? foreign broodwar is as dead as dead can get. What events are there to play for other than laddering vs joe schmo once in a while or playing in an iccup tournament that has no coverage? if that doesn't define dead I'm not sure what does.
outside of that there's literally nothing competitive to do with broodwar anymore...
Sure there's a pocket of players still playing on iccup and diehards following the korean broodwar scene, but I personally watched my surroundings in broodwar get dismantled overnight when sc2 was released (and it was pretty shitty) and you're saying I should keep playing like nothing happened.
We're trying to help revive the scene at ICCup, but as I said before, we don't get much exposure due to TL not featuring our events. I've casted 6 ICCup events in the past couple of months (3 ICCup Attacks, an A-B rank tour, a clan tour, and last seasons CL finals), but only one of those was featured. We made threads announcing them in BW General and BW Tournaments, but it seems a lot of people only check the Proleague threads there. We've got more events planned for the future, so if you want to help, do check the forums as well as iccup.com for announcements and increase our viewer count. Hopefully if enough people are interested, the TL staff will take notice. The scene certainly isn't as big as it was before SC2, but I don't think it's fair to say we're not trying.
Edit: We also have an ICCup Twitter account that you can follow, and GG.net has been announcing our events as well. Ironically they've been more supportive than TL so far.
I need to bring more attention to this post.
The easiest thing to do is whine how everything is died and reminisce about old times, instead of actually doing something. And ICCup is exactly the one doing something for our "dead" community. While they can't compete with SC2 in terms of prizes or whatever, it's still a fun events and people are playing/watching because they actually love the game, not because there's some money on the line. I also think it's a shame you still haven't got featured on TL especially since you put out the quality content and do it restlessly. Every stream I watched from them was like 5 hour long ffs! And it wasn't boring for one second. They are great at keeping the atmosphere alive in their streams while goofing around on skype, but at the same time giving strategic analysis of games being played.
I just played some BW last night against some of the best US players currently on the ladder. It was such a great feeling. I lost both hard fought games, but i love how afte the game- both players took the time to analyze with me, and give me a few pointers. Its funny when when your better than 95% of the BW players, there is still so much more you can learn.
The shaky hands, te sweat from trying to micro your zerg army vs his bio ball is the best feeling a game can ever give you. No questions, for all the people missing BW
GET ON ICCUP and go to 'op teamliquid' I will still be streaming games, and am always looking to play some more. BW is still alive and well, and I plan to keep it that way. I just played with a new BW player last night, and he was having a blast after switching from sc2 to bw. Complaining and lamenting about BW is easy- going out and contributing to the community, and actually doing something is hard. We need everyone to step it up!
You have to remember, you're comparing a 6 month old game to a game you grew up with and probably played for 10 years. SC2 still has a number of expansions coming out and a ton to evolve through. I remember original SC being broken and it wasn't until medics, lurkers and dark templar that the game really got going.
No, I don't have to remember that. I just have to play the game I like more Playing games is not an investment in your future. I love Day9, but I've really got to blame him for this whole attitude about 'being a better gamer' and trying to make it seem as if getting through the not fun parts of a game is a test of your character.
SC:BW was fun from day 1. There was nothing like it and there was nothing better, even before the game was balanced. SC2 is entirely brand loyalty + lots of money being thrown at tournaments + this insane idea that games don't have to be fun.
No matter how deeply rooted older TL members are in BW, the grass roots community still makes the decisions here -.-; I think the next TSL or whatever the timer is counting down to is going to be an SC2 event.
I have to say that I always feel a little better about the state of starcraft when I see glimpses of people enjoying BW too.
I think the risk/reward element you describe is closely related to the `oomph' factor, whose absence from SC2 has been previously discussed - the lack of glass cannons, big explosions, etc. - which also ties in with Saracen's comment on sounds and graphics. There is a lot of risk involved in moving your mnm force out before vessels are ready to detect stop-lurkers, or throwing all that money into reaver tech on the off-chance that your scarab won't be a dud. But the rewards?! Oh, my, the rewards are spectacular! And the penalties equally so.
Unfortunately, I can't see how new maps are going to change this. HotS will add things, but Blizzard has had over ten years to observe what makes BW such a spectacle. I can't hold out too much hope that two more years will be enough. In the end, Chef is right: there's no point in persisting for the hope that your block of silver might hold a nugget of gold in it, when you have your old nugget right next to it. After all, most scarabs ARE duds.
On January 01 2011 04:40 Loser777 wrote: No matter how deeply rooted older TL members are in BW, the grass roots community still makes the decisions here -.-; I think the next TSL or whatever the timer is counting down to is going to be an SC2 event.
On January 01 2011 02:15 Chef wrote: No, I don't have to remember that. I just have to play the game I like more Playing games is not an investment in your future..
I agree with this. One thing that I don't understand about current SC2 scene is that why are people throwing so much money to a game that isn't finished or perfected? Yes, it's only been 5 months since the game was released and there are 2 expansions and many patches to come in the future, and that's my point. SC2 has been endorsed/hyped/supported from the beginning like we've never seen before. A Starleague for a game that just came out? Really? Why not wait until the last expansion comes out and then throw bunch of money there? Feels like right now, people are trying to get their feet wet in SC2 just so that when the game becomes "better" in the future, they have an advantage... I don't think such huge amounts of money should be used to force a pro-scene into a game that is bound to change drastically. I mean, come on, SC2 isn't DotA.
It's hilarious but sc2 is turning into something that every newcomer claimed bw to be - 'a macro fest with senseless clicking'. People used to think sc2 will offer something entirely different - an option to be good by 'out thinking' your opponent, not just outplaying him mechanically. Guess what, now that build orders get figured out and imbalances are continuously patched there is no easy way for a 'smart' new player to beat someone who's been playing for longer. All that bs proved to be a dream, result is - we have an inferior game with many of the old 'problems'. I don't see how it will outlast its' predecessor.