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So over the past 2 weeks I've been playing more and more starcraft 2... A lot of 2v2s with friends, a fair share of 1v1s. The 2v2s (and sometimes 3v3s) I don't take quite seriously but I try to use them to improve macroing off more than 2 base, building unit comps, BOs, etc so that when I get into 1v1 I can actually do well.
But then suddenly I go into 1v1 and get SHIT on. Its not quite that I'm terrible, its just, I'm getting matched with bronzes with literally 200-300 games played (I've played maybe 80?) of JUST 1v1 (I've played 24 1v1). I'm doing well but all my victories were just people that failed at doing...stuff. I'm a Protoss player because I can't seem to figure out Zerg (Though i'd like to eventually) and as satisfying as it is to a-move with my marauders, I don't enjoy Terran as much. Although, I do feel that macroing with terran and keeping mins low is easier .
Basically how do I get better as P playing in bronze . I keep playing but I just get these people that are clearly better than me and I lose. What openings are good for PvT? Because 3 gate robo feels really weird when they show up with marines. How do I improve my map awareness, multitasking, and scouting vs T? Against Zerg I often either get hit by early roaches and I can hold it or lose. vP, its 4 gate battles or some weird stuff involving me, 4 gates, and a robo and +1. .
Be nice if you could help. Juliette.599 if you'd like to play ^^ (maybe not 1v1...)
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I hate to be that guy, but.. you'll get the best feedback if you post a replay. If you're in bronze league then there's probably an easily identifiable general part of your play that you need to focus on that someone can spot for you and offer a good way to practice it.
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Juliette you probably need to mostly work on your macro. Macro and game mechanics are the problems most players face until at least high platinum or diamond.
If you haven't you really really should watch of the lower level oriented Day9 Dailies. Day9 has several of them, but one that you might want to look at to start is one on starcraft mechanics -> http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4712303/
Besides that as protoss in bronze I'd suggest sticking with safe builds since you can get cheesed a lot. I would suggest trying to mostly learn PvT and PvZ. In PvP going 4gate makes the most sense as it will help you get good at that build and let you work on the other two more.
Do 3gate robo vs terran every game until you are at least plat. It can be hard to judge how good ur mechanics are (and you need good mechanics before you start doing super fancy builds!) if you are doing a lot of different builds.
Vs Zerg try doing either 4gate or 3gate into expand. Either of those are very safe builds against most zerg openers.
If you don't have precise build order for those look on the liqupedia 2 protoss section: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy
Good luck getting out of bronze!
Alternity http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/298789/Alternity
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As another hopeless bronze player who gets frustrated with PvT, I'd say don't take advice about macro super seriously. Most games I'm not having trouble keeping minerals low and I die having more workers than them. It sounds like you at least know what's up with macro (putting it into practise is another issue) but I don't think "improve your macro and you'll get to plat/diamond" is very true.
What I'm trying to say is, when most people say macro that's what comes to mind, keeping resources low and worker counts up. But more important, and easy to gloss over when you're looking at the stats screen after DEFEAT are even more basic things. Having a good BO and being never supply blocked. I know I still do dumb stuff like forgetting pylons, or messing up the BO, and this hurts far more, especially when every PvT player at bronze level does nothing but build marines and marauders off 1 base all game. I haven't experimented with rushing collosus yet but I get the feeling that's the ticket at this level.
Or, solidifying a FE build that survives is probably even better, because I assume it's more useful for higher ranks too, and once you hold off the early crap from those Bronze terrans I'm sure you'll outmacro them.
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On February 11 2011 12:44 Turbovolver wrote: As another hopeless bronze player who gets frustrated with PvT, I'd say don't take advice about macro super seriously. Most games I'm not having trouble keeping minerals low and I die having more workers than them. It sounds like you at least know what's up with macro (putting it into practise is another issue) but I don't think "improve your macro and you'll get to plat/diamond" is very true.
What I'm trying to say is, when most people say macro that's what comes to mind, keeping resources low and worker counts up. But more important, and easy to gloss over when you're looking at the stats screen after DEFEAT are even more basic things. Having a good BO and being never supply blocked. I know I still do dumb stuff like forgetting pylons, or messing up the BO, and this hurts far more, especially when every PvT player at bronze level does nothing but build marines and marauders off 1 base all game. I haven't experimented with rushing collosus yet but I get the feeling that's the ticket at this level.
Or, solidifying a FE build that survives is probably even better, because I assume it's more useful for higher ranks too, and once you hold off the early crap from those Bronze terrans I'm sure you'll outmacro them. But macro is not getting supplying blocked and not messing up build orders...
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Nony used to say that almost every strat forum question could be answered with 'you need to play faster.' That was for BW a few years ago, but I'm sure it applies to SC2 now. If it feels like you don't have enough units, or your tech isn't coming in time, it's probably because you're getting it slow. You will probably see massive improvements just by doing little things to be more efficient, such as sending your probe to make something so that when it arrives to make that something, you have just enough money to make it. Stuff like not suddenly realising you have a lot of money you didn't bother to spend. Stuff like not getting pylon stuck.
I don't know SC2 very well, but if you are in bronze league this is probably the source of most of your problems. Know what you are going to do before you do it, so that you can work on doing those things as fast as possible. That is how you master the basics.
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It's worth saying that 2v2's are really counter productive to your skill...or at least that's how I feel. Oh wells. Anywho, watching replays and streams helps a lot, and just FORCING yourself to go faster, even if its just by mass spamming, will eventually help your multitasking in the long run. You basically need to constantly be reminding yourself to do other things until it becomes second nature.
In terms of build orders - either be creative and try to get a feel for how to improve your build by watching replays, or copy the openings of build orders from pros ;]. As a zerg, I suppose I can help you (i'm diamond, but i'm pretty rubbish / I can give advice :O) comeh.198 if you're bored I suppose.
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I usually have a general build order for the beginning but after a while I kinda just go with, well I have money for this gateway without cutting a probe i'm gonna build it (it comes in around normal time I think) and other things. 2v2 works for learning to build a 200/200 army :p.
For playing faster, I try but my APM is only like, 50-60~? Not terrible I think but i guess I need to play more and get more used to everything .
Its not really frustration at terrans more as I'm confused as to what exactly to do. Cause when I get my obs out half the time they have a turret to deny scouting . when i do see what they're building I can counter with good FFs generally when i engage. But i'm always scared of getting my army killed when i'm out in the open so I don't poke as much as I should.
I watch a lot of SC2 actually, which is where I get most of what to do from . I'll watch that daily though, thanks ^^.
How do I work on efficiency for builds? just doing them over and over? and does learning just one build per matchup to start with help me overall? ^^
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Post a few replays and we'll be able to tell you what to be able to improve on.
You can upload replays to www.mediafire.com
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I believe that to get out of bronze you need a somewhat multi-faceted approach because there are a lot of things working against you.
1. Mechanics/Macro - This is key and even though it is hard to believe as a beginner once you accept it, it really does take you quite far. Understanding it is tough because while it appears simple at first, there really are a lot of things to do. Some of the common pitfalls of macro that disguise things are:
Building supply before you need it Building buildings you can't constantly produce out of Getting a second gas too soon Getting tech you don't intend to constantly produce Making small mistakes with missing workers/supply/macro mechanic Not expanding
2. Expansions - as a beginner these seem really tricky and prone to dying. So I found the easiest way to overcome this is to do your 1-base "all-in" build for a while such as 4-gate or 3-rax stim or bling bust leaving your base at 7ish minutes. The goal should be to have a 50+ food army at 7-min. This requires good 1-base macro to achieve.
Once you are comfortable getting the units out at 7-minutes you can expand behind the push and work on 2-base macro.
3. Defending cheese / all-in - this just takes time and experience, learning to make a good wall-in and when and where cannons are needed. When you lose to one watch the replay and search the forums for a thread on how to defend it. There are millions out there but unfortunately you need the losses to know how to do it right.
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5 of my most recent 1v1s: http://www.mediafire.com/?yobzzpc2pbp24yk
Eeryck, I'll try that goal for number 2 :o. 50 supply army with 7 mins?
Also looking back at some of those replays now a big problem of mine is not doing much with my army, which kinda just sits there and then gets stimmed into and I don't FF and react fast enough.
I'd appreciate if anyone took a look :p
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play more games dude. and i mean a LOT MORE 1v1 games. i dont think playing 2v2 will improve your skills as a 1v1 player. watch your replay and learn from there. so by the time you play your next game, just apply what you haven't done in the previous games. we all start as a newbie and by constantly practicing and learn from our mistakes, we WILL improve.
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I watched some of the replays and some things you need to improve on:
Your first probe usually isn't built until the 5-8 second mark.You should build your probe first before sending your workers to mine.
I'm not sure what your mindset is on chronoboost, you seem to save it up to 90 and than use it all at once quite often. You always want to be using it on probes at the early stages of the game (after your first pylon, after first gateway, and after first gas).
You let your probes idle a lot. After building your first pylon @ nine supply, you should send your probe back to mining or send it to scout. Try using shift click so that your probe always goes back to mining after building something.
Your gateways / production facilities generally should always be building something / or on cooldown. You miss warpgate cooldowns so your minerals build up and you fall behind in army value.
Try and focus on macro more than micro. You let your minerals pile up to ~1000 while you were attacking that protoss on Xel Naga.
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On February 11 2011 12:52 dcberkeley wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 12:44 Turbovolver wrote: As another hopeless bronze player who gets frustrated with PvT, I'd say don't take advice about macro super seriously. Most games I'm not having trouble keeping minerals low and I die having more workers than them. It sounds like you at least know what's up with macro (putting it into practise is another issue) but I don't think "improve your macro and you'll get to plat/diamond" is very true.
What I'm trying to say is, when most people say macro that's what comes to mind, keeping resources low and worker counts up. But more important, and easy to gloss over when you're looking at the stats screen after DEFEAT are even more basic things. Having a good BO and being never supply blocked. I know I still do dumb stuff like forgetting pylons, or messing up the BO, and this hurts far more, especially when every PvT player at bronze level does nothing but build marines and marauders off 1 base all game. I haven't experimented with rushing collosus yet but I get the feeling that's the ticket at this level.
Or, solidifying a FE build that survives is probably even better, because I assume it's more useful for higher ranks too, and once you hold off the early crap from those Bronze terrans I'm sure you'll outmacro them. But macro is not getting supplying blocked and not messing up build orders... It's almost like I talked about this in my post. That it is a part of macro but one that's not well conveyed by the SC2 stats, nor how the word "macro" get used at the higher levels of play (where not missing pylons and not messing up BOs are taken as givens).
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On February 11 2011 12:44 Turbovolver wrote: As another hopeless bronze player who gets frustrated with PvT, I'd say don't take advice about macro super seriously. Most games I'm not having trouble keeping minerals low and I die having more workers than them. It sounds like you at least know what's up with macro (putting it into practise is another issue) but I don't think "improve your macro and you'll get to plat/diamond" is very true.
I started in bronze originally and just got promoted to plat yesterday so maybe my word will mean something on this. "Improve your macro" is probably the best advice you can get. That said, I agree that it leaves a lot to be desired as it doesn't really give you a lot of pointers on how to actually do that.
From my own experience, I fumbled around a lot with zerg before switching to protoss. I thought I had a good idea of what to build based on reading the various articles on the Internet and watching Husky/dl'ing replays but in a game, I just kind of built things as I remembered/had minerals to do so. It did not work very well.
The best advice for a beginner is to watch Day[9]'s dailies. Yes, Artosis is much more in-depth but Day[9] is much more geared towards the beginner and his thoughts will give you some insight into the basics of how you should be thinking about your game and how build orders actually work.
For build orders, do yourself a favor and get good at 4-gating. It's a strong build that doesn't require a huge amount of finesse to win, especially at the bronze/silver level. Don't worry about harassing your opponent. Don't worry about scouting beyond the minimum necessary to find your opponent. After you find him, pull the probe back home immediately; don't poke around to try to figure out his build. You need to be focussing on getting your build order down in a game situation. When your 4 gate is ready, attack and bring a probe to build the forward pylon. Don't worry about expanding; just throw your units into the meat grinder and macro, macro, macro until your macro is solid.
The main point of all this is to keep it simple. Focus on one or two things at a time. Macro is the basic fundamental skill that everything else builds on so this is where to start. Don't bother trying to micro like a pro or execute multi-point drops or fast expands or anything fancy. After your games, review the games against the following goals:
- Don't get supply blocked - Constantly build probes (until 20 for the all-in 4 gate) - All unit producing builds are always producing - Don't let your minerals get above 500
Don't worry about anything else in your replay. If you're making one mistake over and over, focus on that in the next set of games. No one starts out playing like a pro; it doesn't do us any good when we're learning to try to emulate them since our skills aren't at their level.
After your macro is solid, then you can start figuring out when to expand and how to scout properly. Honestly, you'll lose some games if you take this advice since there'll be games where you get cheesed or where you run out of minerals in your main but you'll win A LOT more than you lose just by hammering your opponent into the ground. More importantly, it gives you a chance to really focus on the basics of your game without being distracted. Personally, once my macro starting getting stronger, I started to find out that a lot of what I thought was necessary, such as great micro/FF use/unit comp, didn't really matter as I was outmassing my opponents by so much I could steamroll them with the "wrong" units.
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On February 11 2011 17:15 supernovice007 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 12:44 Turbovolver wrote: As another hopeless bronze player who gets frustrated with PvT, I'd say don't take advice about macro super seriously. Most games I'm not having trouble keeping minerals low and I die having more workers than them. It sounds like you at least know what's up with macro (putting it into practise is another issue) but I don't think "improve your macro and you'll get to plat/diamond" is very true.
I started in bronze originally and just got promoted to plat yesterday so maybe my word will mean something on this. "Improve your macro" is probably the best advice you can get. That said, I agree that it leaves a lot to be desired as it doesn't really give you a lot of pointers on how to actually do that. - Don't get supply blocked - Constantly build probes (until 20 for the all-in 4 gate) - All unit producing builds are always producing - Don't let your minerals get above 500 After your macro is solid, then you can start figuring out when to expand and how to scout properly. Honestly, you'll lose some games if you take this advice since there'll be games where you get cheesed or where you run out of minerals in your main but you'll win A LOT more than you lose just by hammering your opponent into the ground. More importantly, it gives you a chance to really focus on the basics of your game without being distracted. Personally, once my macro starting getting stronger, I started to find out that a lot of what I thought was necessary, such as great micro/FF use/unit comp, didn't really matter as I was outmassing my opponents by so much I could steamroll them with the "wrong" units.
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
I've watched all of your rep's. Probe production is a huge problem. Also how you use your first probes is a problem you will need to fix. The split at the start puts you at an immediate disadvantage... Don't leave the probe you used to make your pylon next to it, either send it to scout the other base or bring it back to the mineral line - same goes for your assim at 14. You don't chrono enough in the early game. You miss warp-in's pretty regularly and can not yet distinguish when you should attack/micro/retreat and it seems you pick retreat quite a few times when you have a fight won. (strange PvP rep) your 1 immortal would have won a fight for you in the early game but you ran away instead and it got sniped as you ran.
In one game your probe production was far superior to the player you were against but you didn't make enough production buildings and had a bit of trouble dealing with him because of it. Probe saturation seems like an issue as well (strange PvP rep)
There is more but it's a moderately sized post already... Macro is very important... you could just 4 gate as said above but I find learning how to tech and expand is much more important as you get better lol - call me crazy. Good Luck.
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On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc.
I tried learning terran as 1-1-1 when I started and was getting rolled, but I wanted to be a macro player. It wasn't until I optimized my 3-rax stim push that I started to understand what I needed to have out unit wise and how to get it. The 50+ food at 7-minutes 3-rax with stim and concussive just obliterated every bronze player I faced.
So then I progressed to into a 3-rax stim push with a very safe 7-minute expo and continued to ROFLstomp Bronze and Silver players.
This allowed me to get into my current build that is a 2-rax expand then get gas, 3rd rax and tech. Because of my progression in builds I know when I am a little light on units. I also know when my units are going to way overpower a 1-baser. Now continuing to refine my macro I will continue to see progress. I am able to do it with confidence though because I know how to survive the early game. (for the most part) =)
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On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. =)
Watch the replay's before you say it is an unfair statement. I left the smiley in your quote lol I'm aware it's a cruel statement but after playing Protoss for 10+ years I've become disgusted by people who 4 gate and don't seem to realize they can build another nexus.
Anyway... OT: You get your obs out and scout with them but it seems like you do it without knowing the real reason why... you see their army but don't seem to understand what to do when you see them... the 2nd ff rep is a pretty good sign of that =/ instead of massing stalkers you make 8 sentry's when you don't have much of an army that do almost nothing vs 38 marines and 10 marauders. He is on one base and you have your expansion as well
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Not sure how this post was created Can a mod remove it for me? lol ty >.>
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On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc.
^^ This.
No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds.
I play golf and I usually fall back on golf examples to illustrate a point. When I first started playing, my instructor didn't show me a video of Tiger Woods playing golf and say "Now do that" or "Get good and play this way". No, he started with the basics. Stand like this. Hold the club like this. Don't use a driver, use a 7-iron. Don't worry about hitting the ball far or straight; focus on your form and making contact. Basically, you spend time building your fundamentals first then you can worry about perfecting your technique and learning how to perfect your swing.
The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once.
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On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once.
Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_Zukarakox Master league toss.
If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him.
Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout.
By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long.
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On February 12 2011 01:12 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. =) Watch the replay's before you say it is an unfair statement. I left the smiley in your quote lol I'm aware it's a cruel statement but after playing Protoss for 10+ years I've become disgusted by people who 4 gate and don't seem to realize they can build another nexus.
Fair enough statement, I was trying to comment while at work and can not watch the replays, but should have. If there is already an expansion that is great. Personally in the beginning I had a lot harder time fixing 2-base macro errors over just taking a step back and focusing on 1-base to help improve my game sense.
If you spend 2-3 practice games working on only constantly making probes while doing your build you start to ingrain that cadence and get a game sense for it. You also see how other mistakes like supply block, stop you from doing this well.
Then spend 2-3 games working on not getting supply blocked on 1-base and building just when you need it. Again you are developing a basic game sense.
Then spend 2-3 games making sure you get your production buildings down exactly when you have the minerals to build them.
etc.
This done within a simple T1.5 build takes away the "what units should I get" and when should I expand questions. It starts to show what it feels like spending all your money off of one base.
The extensions into multiple bases then becomes somewhat more obvious, because fundamentals to work off of have been systematically developed.
The comment about playing like Tiger Woods was a very good analogy. Skill sets are learned by practicing the building blocks within a simple framework. That was my intent with recommending going back to a simple "all-in" type build for mechanics refinement.
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On February 12 2011 01:43 OmniEulogy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once. Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_ZukarakoxMaster league toss. If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him. Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout. By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long.
If the OP had a coach and a team of experienced players to play with, I doubt there would be a blog post about it.
If Macro is the OP's problem and several posts after the replays indicate that it is, then a structured plan to improve macro is what the OP needs most.
When learning basics in anything, the more simply the framework is defined (less variables) read this as Build order. The easier it is to identify fundamental flaws and fix them before adding more and more things to be managed.
My intent had nothing to do with what someone could or could not do. It is simply my belief that if you want to learn something use the K.I.S.S. principle first to get your mechanics down, then do more involved stuff.
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On February 12 2011 04:10 Eeryck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2011 01:43 OmniEulogy wrote:On February 12 2011 01:25 supernovice007 wrote:On February 12 2011 00:41 Eeryck wrote:On February 11 2011 20:08 OmniEulogy wrote:
Or you could actually learn how to play your race and become good... Took me 15 games of dealing with trash strategies like this to become diamond.
This is a very unfair statement to a struggling beginner. Yes for the long term 4-gating is not a good strategy. However, by doing it for 10-15 games and ROFLstomping other bronzies, it starts to give you some ideas of what you can have and also what you need to be able to defend. Once this builds your confidence some it becomes easier to FE and take some map control, move your army out of your base etc. ^^ This. No one is suggesting that the OP should 4-gate forever. The idea is to use a basic build that is decently strong against everything. 4-gate is fine for this. Once the OPs macro is good, then he can start branching out into expansion timings, proper scouting, and new builds. The same logic applies here. If you're in bronze, you're better off picking a basic all-in build and executing it over and over until you can handle the demands of following a build order, building an army, and basic scouting. It doesn't do any good to talk about modifying a build based on scouting information when the player can't consistently execute a build order in a vacuum. Nor does it do any good to talk about expansion timings for the same reason. This isn't meant as a criticism of new players, by the way. All of us started somewhere and you can get better by building from the ground up, not by tackling everything at once. Once again. Watch the reps before you post. You are saying this player is incapable of doing anything other than 4 gating to win? Pretty insulting. I've beat a 4 gate all-in with 2 gate robo and the other toss had around 400 minerals left with all his patches COMBINED, still hadn't made a nexus. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/4471/OmniEulogy_vs_ZukarakoxMaster league toss. If you are going to post anything that actually helps the OP's learn to play better feel free. However I don't think learning how to hold the golf club will help, because the ball isn't going to wait for you to hit it. (see what I did there?) When I learned how to play on bw, my coach just constantly harassed me game after game until I was able to hold the early game - mid game. I have a zerg on my team who wasn't able to take a game off me until we played 8 hours a day for about 4 days and suddenly his ZvP has gotten much stronger and we go more or less even. I sure as hell didn't teach him how to cheese me or all-in every game so he could win. I taught him how to play a stronger econ game, how to harass, and how to scout properly and use the information given to him. Saying a player can't pick up these skills with practice is degrading to that player and I find it rather interesting that it has become acceptable to tell a toss to just learn to 4 gate and not expo to win games and get out of bronze. Then again... both players who agree to this couldn't even take the time to watch the rep's and realize the player has picked up the tech/expansion timings and knows how to scout. By the way I just need to add, seems the OP uses 3 gate robo in most games. Tell me how that is a weak opening that can't transition into anything and then they can just 4 gate all day long. If the OP had a coach and a team of experienced players to play with, I doubt there would be a blog post about it. If Macro is the OP's problem and several posts after the replays indicate that it is, then a structured plan to improve macro is what the OP needs most. When learning basics in anything, the more simply the framework is defined (less variables) read this as Build order. The easier it is to identify fundamental flaws and fix them before adding more and more things to be managed. My intent had nothing to do with what someone could or could not do. It is simply my belief that if you want to learn something use the K.I.S.S. principle first to get your mechanics down, then do more involved stuff.
Hm I agree with you completely. FGOmniEulogy.751 OP if you want people to obs or to game with you are more than welcome to join us for games or to answer any questions you might have about build orders, counters ect. we have highly skilled players for each race so we should be able to help with any match up. If you have skype I'll personally yell at you for hours while you play lol
and Eeryck 100%. I learned to never stop making probes and to keep my macro as close to perfect as it could be as the first things. Micro came after and then more technical plays became easier to perform. Wasn't trying to pick a fight and I know you weren't either I was just annoyed at the "just learn to 4 gate all-in every game durrrrrrrrrr" comment. Getting better means not teching or expoing in what game? I doubt he played sc bw. -.-
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You put the colon in the wrong space in the thread title.
It's supposed to be (:
Alternatively, works as well.
Just remember, you should have this attitude in every ladder game you play:
+ Show Spoiler + (x_x)O-('.'Q) ^ ^ Opponent You With that type of attitude, you'll move up in rank in no time!
Good luck!
PS - there's always people willing to help others out. You just gotta find them. This could help you a lot.
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On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:
What non 4gate build would you guys recommend me learning? Is 3-gate robo good for all matchups enough at bronze?
3-gate robo on one base would be fine, you can constantly produce from that, and will give a good mix of units. After you are getting that 50+ food at 7- minutes you should pick some sort of expand build and work on that. For a rough plan outline.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote: I'm trying not to 4 gate as when I do it right i seem to win o.O. unless its a toss that also 4gated in which case I kinda just go wtf.
as your macro gets better you will be able to hold this off with 3-gates or 4-gates.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:...what do I do against mass void rays i really appreciate it
Think about what they have before mass VR comes out. Some cannons. A strong early push shuts down mass VR pretty hard because they are so heavily invested in tech and some cannons. The more cannons they have to make the more delayed their VR massing is.
On February 12 2011 07:07 Juliette wrote:also how many gates/robos can i produce off of constantly on 2 bases . without collosus
Check out this site: http://www.sc2calc.org/unit_production/protoss.php
It is maintained by haploid here on these forums, very helpful tool.
It is hard to understand till you do it for yourself but really any unit mix can win in bronze if you macro well. You will just get so much stuff so much faster that it really does not matter what your opponent does. If you get any 50+ food army at 7-minutes that isn't 50 drones you can just about A-move win.
Don't get to comfortable doing this though because it will only take you to maybe high silver. Use it as a tool to understanding the power of good macro. Then figure out your expo timing that gives you a similar unit mix like 3-gate expand to whatever final tech structure mix you find with the calculator.
Good luck.
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On February 12 2011 06:47 OmniEulogy wrote:and Eeryck 100%. I learned to never stop making probes and to keep my macro as close to perfect as it could be as the first things. Micro came after and then more technical plays became easier to perform. Wasn't trying to pick a fight and I know you weren't either I was just annoyed at the "just learn to 4 gate all-in every game durrrrrrrrrr" comment. Getting better means not teching or expoing in what game? I doubt he played sc bw. -.-
It's unfortunate that you read "do a 4 gate" and stopped reading. I gave my reasons for suggesting a 4 gate and cutting out the rest. The advice was based on watching 3 of the 5 posted replays (I skipped the missed FF ones). What I saw was consistently bad macro. A clue to this should be 4 gates and 1 robo off one base. This is not sustainable with good macro. Likewise, the OP's macro slips frequently ESPECIALLY WHILE SCOUTING, hence, ditch the scouting for awhile. And the constant idle probes are another indicator of bad macro. I didn't mention those in the initial posts because I consider that type of advice less useful than advice that actually teaches the OP how to analyze his own replays and identify his own mistakes. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish...
I wasn't trying to make the argument that anyone should 1 base 4-gate all-in as their sole means of playing. I even stated as much in my second post. My statement is that the easiest way to learn is, as Eeryck pointed out, to cut out as many variables as possible to focus on the fundamentals. If he wants to do it with 3 gate/robo, fine, use 3 gate/robo. (And yes OP, 3-gate robo is a perfectly viable build to hold off a 4-gate). You'll notice I didn't suggest a cannon rush or 10-gate or any other cheeseball nonsense. I suggested a build that requires some degree of macro to use and can be modified to serve as a useful build in addition to other builds as the OP progresses.
I'm not saying the OP can't learn to play and never even implied it; quite the opposite actually, I'm confident the OP can do it. However, he is not doing it now because he is trying to focus on too many things at once. Hence, cut out everything that is not specifically related to getting the fullest use out of each building and probe and focus on that.
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I just got back home and had some time to run a test on this.
In the "Missed FF1" game, the first engagement happened at 12:46. The armies were:
OP 2 immortals 6 sentries 3 stalkers 7 zealots 1/0/1 upgrades
Enemy 4 marauders 17 marines 1/1 upgrades
I ran a test using the same build order (gate/core/forge/gate/gate/robo) and expanded at the 9:06 mark as in the replay. This is my army at the 12:46 mark (and this could be improved):
4 immortals 6 sentries 8 stalkers 11 zealots 1/0/1 upgrades
That's a big difference in army size. I'd propose that my army wins that fight even with no micro. This is why I suggest that players focus on macro only. A missed FF shouldn't even be a consideration in that game since it's possible to roll your opponent with proper macro and no micro.
And to the OP, PLEASE do not take this as unduly harsh criticism. I'm not trying to say anyone is a bad person or helpless or hopeless or incapable or anything else of the sort. I'm trying to drive home the point that macro is the single most important aspect of the game for players to work on when they are struggling in the lower leagues.
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don't worry haha i accept that i'm really bad and am trying to learn
so did you simply just pump immortals constantly while i didn't? i also just watched the mechanics day9 daily xD.
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Feel free to hit me up on bnet, Ulfsark.345
I play protoss, and can sort of play the other races so i can help you out.
Also map awareness, observers. Don't forget you can make more than 1, they are useful for scouting drops on maps like scrap station.
Also try a DT opening into expand into HT. I find this build to work very well.
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ulfsark you're a baller ty ^^
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suck it up and play more foo!
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Getting better is to constantly step outside your comfort zone and try to do better. For me, it means not to miss any larvae inject, not to let minerals go above 500, not to miss any creep spread, always watch my scout zerglings and the result of trying to reach these goals tend to produce strong games averagig 130 apm. Do you have some tasks you have in mind which you cannot comfortably do at the moment? You should. Set a goal to overcome them by actively trying to improve during game and keep it on your mind.
There are a LOT of people with 500 games and are still stuck in silver doing 7 roach rush all day. They are fail breed of bore gamers who plays w/o a brain like a zombie. Do not become one of them. Each game should be played with a plan and purpose, and if you don't have a plan I suggest you make one THEN play.
It can be a STUPID plan, like, pump ALOT of immortals ASAP and atk move ftw, but it is a plan. A man w/o a plan is a fly w/o a head, you go figure out the rest, shit's worthless.
anyways gl.
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On February 12 2011 14:26 Juliette wrote:don't worry haha i accept that i'm really bad and am trying to learn so did you simply just pump immortals constantly while i didn't? i also just watched the mechanics day9 daily xD.
Not exactly although I did chrono the first immortal. My chronos went to the nexus to get the 11th and 12th probe, then to gateways to produce units then to the robo for the first immortal then back to the gateways. There's not really a right or wrong way to use your chrono boosts as long as you are using them on buildings that are producing something. My personal preference is to use one on the nexus and the rest on units. I'll go back to chrono on the nexus after expanding or losing probes to harass but mostly I use them on units. But again, that's just a personal preference.
I think the main difference is that I'm producing all the time out of all my buildings and none of my probes are idle. The easiest way to monitor this in game is to set your units producing builds to hotkeys and cycle through them constantly to make sure they always building something.
For example, I always set my nexus to "5", my gates to "6", and my robo to "7". So whenever I'm playing, I hit 5, 6, 7 over and over to monitor what those buildings are doing. If any of them are about to finish building, I queue up another unit. If the warpgates are about to come off cooldown, I get ready to warp in more. If you can get the hang of that, you can keep your macro up, even when you're doing something else, like scouting or microing during a fight.
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I played a game with OmniEulogy who's also a baller btw and did, okay? ^^ I've been learning 4 nexus 5robo and 6stargate (and maybe forge if i have some at the time instead of stargates) so i'm getting used to the reach. 3gate robo -> expand -> 2 robo collosus is like, awesome so i'm gonna try to learn that and hold 4gates off eventually in pvp.
@evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared
@supernovice i'm liking 10/14 boost (after pylon, after assim) and then the rest on my robo. I always seem to forget my boosts
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On February 13 2011 08:34 Juliette wrote:@evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared
why? Just play more and practice intellegently.
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On February 13 2011 08:34 Juliette wrote:I played a game with OmniEulogy who's also a baller btw and did, okay? ^^ I've been learning 4 nexus 5robo and 6stargate (and maybe forge if i have some at the time instead of stargates) so i'm getting used to the reach. 3gate robo -> expand -> 2 robo collosus is like, awesome so i'm gonna try to learn that and hold 4gates off eventually in pvp. @evan those people with 2300 bronze in my league make me scared @supernovice i'm liking 10/14 boost (after pylon, after assim) and then the rest on my robo. I always seem to forget my boosts
Macro's solid, Supply blocking yourself in PvP is a bit of a problem but you deal with it pretty quickly, just gotta learn when to take your 3rd/4th bases. As I said earlier you make the obs and you scout with it... you just don't use the information you see accurately but it's getting there ^^
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eulogy your build is seriously sick. I did it to some Z on the ladder, missed the mutas again but i had cannons preemptively cause i was worried, expanded, and won :D. <333333 he didnt even gg
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On February 13 2011 17:41 Juliette wrote:eulogy your build is seriously sick. I did it to some Z on the ladder, missed the mutas again but i had cannons preemptively cause i was worried, expanded, and won :D. <333333 he didnt even gg
lol it's just an old BW build that I haven't really seen used on sc2. It gives you atk upgrades really quickly and gives you the ability to pressure the zerg and scout for his tech at the same time I'm still refining the build but Damon is a good training partner for it so things are moving ahead pretty quickly as you learn the timings it'll become stronger and stronger vs the zergs you play ^^
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