It's a call to action. 2011 was a fantastic year for SC2 and eSports (note: when I refer to eSports for me that is SC2, for you it may be a different game, a lot of what I talk about is transferable to other games so please feel free to extrapolate to other games if you prefer) and in 2012 we can do better.
In this blog I will be addressing a lot of questions I get asked frequently like "how can I contribute?" and I will try and shed some light on subjects that previously have come up and gone down with not much in the way of a word.
WARNING: This will be lengthy. I have a lot to say on this subject and I want to share as much of it as possible.
THE DREAMER
1. Where will we go in SC2?
-Anything is possible. Had you asked me if we would see 16k people at a Blizzcon SC2 event I would have balked at the idea. 200k+ people on a stream viewing an MLG final? Monster, Redbull, Youtube and others stepping in... ludicrous. The time to doubt where SC2 can go is over. Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
A. I want stadiums filled with people for a SC2 event. 16k was nice. Why not 32k? Why not have musical groups opening for a major event like we have in Korea and at a Blizzcon? Imagine loading up your car with 3-4 of your best friends for a cross state trip to a huge outdoor stadium overlooking a gorgeous city-scape lit up in the early hours of the night. All the while driving and talking about the coming matches to be played. The stories covered on your favorite players and how excited you are to see your favorite caster guide you through this experience. SC2 doesn't have to be an experience shared in a basement or a bedroom. We have seen SC2 take over bars. People getting into the competitive spirit and melding places of recreation with their hobby SC2. Beers, food and fun can be shared both in the bar and beyond. Lets go big.
B. I want ESPN like coverage of games. Why is it unrealistic to imagine an ESPN 2 coverage of a 100k tourney played monthly where hundreds of thousands of people tune in, drive to the event or consume constant media surrounding the event? We deserve panels of experts sitting in professional studios discussing the journey of a team and it's players. The struggle, the drama and everything that comes with it. I want to see them cut to Day9 looking trim and well kept in front of a green screen where he breaks down a well executed flank. I want scores running at the bottom of the screen for that weeks CSL, Playhem, TSL, IPL, NASL etc etc... We as a community spend a lot of time talking about how SC2 isn't fit for the screen. We don't need it.. it will only ruin things. Dare to dream. The TV and mainstream media will reach new places streaming alone simply cannot. If your fathers watch a personal story on White-rA and his upbringing in Odessa Ukraine and he starts to understand the human behind the game there is MORE of a chance that he will accept the game.. the examples and potential is limitless. Why imagine ways it can fail and doubt.. when we can push the envelope and go for it.
C. Help me dream it. What are your ideas? What is your wishlist for SC2? Tweet them. Talk about them at work. Blog, stream, vlog... spread the word that we are raising the ceiling on SC2.
2. What can I do in SC2? How can I help?
-Nobody is without the power to help build this dream. The poorest college student or the wealthiest self-employed business owner.. each of you have the ability and the means. If money is not your currency then your voice is. If you have money good, the game can use that too. It's easy to experience the growth of SC2 and be there for the ride. It takes action to look at that growth and say "What can I do?" Each and every one of us can sit around and watch it grow or we can jump in and help raise our passion to levels beyond what we thought possible. In this section I will empower you to get involved and ask that you once again, not look for ways to count yourself out but beg the question: What can I do?
A. Social media is as intertwined with gaming as it has ever been. Twitter, youtube, streaming services, blogging, podcasting etc etc...it's all huge and extremely important. Players, casters, management, sponsors.. all of them are looking to social media as a mechanism for reach and productivity. The reach is you the consumer. The productivity is what you do once they reach you. Do you love TL? Buy Razer. Do you love Intel cause of IEM or who they sponsor? Email, tweet, view buy.. consume! Be loyal to the players, casters, companies and anything else that is working within the confines of SC2 and eSports. Your favorite player should be followed by you on twitter. You don't have one? Make one. Not because you think twitter is awesome and you NEED to be on twitter but because your favorite player has more reach and notability when they are actively being supported by their fans. Like their fanpage, subscribe to their youtube do anything and everything to embolden their social media. This seems simple and like a no brainer but it actually takes work. Following Sheth on twitter? Did you know he has a fan page? Are you enlisted there? Does he have a youtube? I don't know, go look! Take that next step to help further the cause of those that carry the torch for SC2. You can be a part of that flame. You can help their light reach more people and attract more legitimacy. Players, casters and companies can NOT do it on their own. They NEED you to make this work. It is working, but why just work when you can THRIVE? Why grow when you can explode onward and upward?
B. Consume and communicate. Don't just buy an ASUS monitor, don't just attend an MLG... consume and then talk about it. Has anyone thought to mail the mayor of Providence and thank him for what he did to help host MLG? Did anyone tweet ASUS and thank them for their recent tourney they headlined? Maybe some did... maybe some didn't... don't ask, DO. Make it a goal to once a week send out an email to a company you support and tell them you support them because of what they do for your favorite team, player, league or tourney. I can personally vouch for how important this is. I can tell you right now I have had countless conversations with executives from Steelseries, Intel, Kingston Hyper X, Monster and so on.. and each and every one of them talks vehemently about how important this concept is. When Redbull sponsors Bomber and then gets 30k emails from avid SC2/Bomber fans about how excited they are that Redbull is getting involved do you think they go "ah gee thanks" or do they go "Woah, we've never had that before.. what if we sponsor another player? Team? House? League..." This is ACTUALLY how it works. If they KNOW their investment is being received by aware and consuming people they will invest more and more. If Bomber gets sponsored and we all go "yay" and nobody moves much beyond that we increase the chances of an event like that meaning not much. Could Redbull invest anyways? Sure, but why leave that to chance? Why not up our chances of getting a huge company involved in SC2?
Have a favorite stream you watch? Favorite podcast you listen to? Favorite youtube channel? Tweet it, tell someone at work, show the family at thanksgiving. In the past we would consume for private pleasure. We'd talk about it where other people are familiar with the subject and we'd be content. Take this as a personal pledge: Show 5 people a SC2 stream, vod, podcast or w/e before 2012. Then work to double or triple that number in 2012. Why should we keep this to ourselves? I believe SC2 to be the best game ever made. I believe this community to be the most capable one (in terms of gaming) on earth. It would be down right selfish of us as a group to not share that. Doing homework? Open up 2-3 player streams. Found something amazing on Husky's youtube channel? Tweet it, show your sister.. tell em what it's about. Do not let yourself be that shy consumer that only seeks to entertain themselves... consume and share.. get more people involved. Even if you try 20 times and you only get 1 person that is 1 person we wouldn't have had otherwise.
This is one of the most important sections of my article. It is the common place we all can work within. You don't need hundreds of man hours or thousands of dollars to tweet a link to a stream, youtube or podcast. You don't need some high-powered job to share info on SC2 with people who otherwise wouldn't have known... this is where you can have a real impact on where SC2 goes in 2012 and beyond. This is where you ask, "What can I do?" and I answer. This is where we act.
C. Support the players. This will overlap a bit but it bears every mention possible. Email Stephano or PM him on TL and say "way to go!" when he wins. Share a story about how you nearly cried when he won IPL3 cause he meant so much to you. Send a picture you drew to CatZ when you stayed up late and watched his stream and all it's shenanigans. Shake hands with players at events and tell em you support them. Follow their streams (here is the redundancy), add them on twitter etc... make it your business to be their business. The better they do and the more love and attention they get the more this game flourishes. We need our players.
This is a subject everyone knows about but not everyone actively works on. Once again it is easy for us to think "that doesn't really matter" or "what does that actually do?" but I am once again here to tell you that it means a lot. Every time I think back to this it makes me cry but I cry with a feeling of motivation and strength. Not too long ago when I was really down, depressed and feeling horrible about myself due to poor play, lack of results and tough public criticism I was sent a message. An individual opened up talking about how they respected me and wanted to thank me for what I had done for them but then they said I saved their life. Naturally I read that as impossible strong and probably an exaggeration. The person told a story about how terrible flooding in Australia had ruined a lot of lives and people in his part of town were sitting on the roofs of their houses hoping for someone to save them. Many had died and the outlook was bad. He and his family huddled around presumably some iPhone or something of that nature and listened to the State of the Game podcast that he had down loaded. They spent hours laughing at the jokes and discussing the subjects they had all listened to already but were now using as an escape. Rather than sit and stare at the flooding waters carrying their once peaceful town away they enjoyed each others company and listened to our podcast. In sharing that he has changed my life. Had he kept that to himself I never would have known and the depth and potential for what my work can do would possibly never have connected with me. Knowing what I know now I go to that place for strength and motivation when things get really tough. If I could ever do that for even 1 more person as indirectly as that was... I can die knowing I made a difference through my passion and it was all worth it.
D. Create. This is an area where I think I will need to follow up on.. I fancy myself an ideas man. I love coming up with ideas for what we can do differently or new. I discussed this over drinks with Chobopeon, Kim Rom and a few others... (these will just be ideas, but this is a section where I encourage YOU to contribute!) free-lance journalism. We don't have it in SC2. Slasher is tied to MLG, JP is tied to MLG, Wheat has his connections and so on and so forth. Everyone at this time answers to someone so whether directly or indirectly their word and how they express it IS changed. If someone hunts down an article and then sells it to TL or whoever they have the unique ability to give an unbiased perspective or hit a hard truth. They can tell a personal story about a player without the reader viewing it as an advertisement for that organizations own employee. I'm not asking for TMZ or whistle-blowers.. I am asking for good journalism which definitely can include components of the previously mentioned media but perhaps it also means more honest coverage.
Player agents. At this time we have players negotiation six figure salaries for themselves and of course that is the extreme case but it will become more and more common.. additionally it doesn't take a six figure salary to necessitate the need for an agent. We have none though. Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player. They don't know the first thing about our market. This is something someone could do and the first to do it would have all the business. Are you that person? Create.
The potential here is of course limitless. The ideas I laid out are pretty advanced. But what else can we do that is not so extreme? Have skill in graphic design? Contact your favorite team, offer to help on the website, ask if there is a job available. Contact your favorite player and offer to redo their youtube. One individual who is now paid and working for EG started out by contacting me and Anna and asked if he could do free work on our youtube pages.. EG liked what they saw and now he has a job in the field he is most excited about.
What can you do? What are your ideas?
3. We the people
-Posting on forums, attending events.. being the masses are we doing everything we can to help? Is it our obligation to work for this community? These kind of questions should be asked and then actively worked with. If you want to passively experience and gain from SC2 that is totally fine. That is your right. I don't think less of you for it by any means. But if you've ever wanted to do more then it is well within your ability to function as a positive influence within the SC2 community.
A. Many have heard me talk about being critical of players.. let me clarify. I am by no means saying don't do this. It's natural, it's a part of our fun with this game and it helps us refine the bad. It is of course something we will do. That said, we can take it to levels that are inappropriate. I myself am guilty of this as I know many would be quick to point out. A few distinctions: Shows are the place to be critical. Discussing players in threads where they are playing is appropriate. Mentioning it all over the place every time their name is brought up? Tweeting them hate messages? Spamming stream chat with similar vile talk? Not good. We can't stop the bad apples but we can discourage it. Don't laugh, don't respond and move along.. let them have an audience of 1. Or, if you must respond, tell em to knock it off. Will it continue? Sure. Can we stop it? Never entirely.. but we can reduce it's attraction. Being constructively critical or being harsh but appropriate is NOT the same. I am not saying pretend we only do great and never make mistakes but I am saying monitor the severity and keep it logical. If you are at least trying to operate within these parameters than you are doing what I would think, a great community member should do.
B. Put more thought into what you say and do. Players are reachable. We read, hear and see what you say and do. Some of us more than others but you CAN communicate with us. Be aware of that. If what you are saying is exactly what you want to say than fine. If you find yourself saying "well they probably won't read it anyways" or "he will know I am joking I think..." then read it over again, take a second and then post it. Give yourself that bit of moderation so we can advance how we communicate as a collective.
C. Moderate. TL is often regarded as too harsh... I don't think it's harsh enough. Don't just close a thread mocking a player, delete it. That closed thread can still be found. Actively upvote and downvote on Reddit.. there is a lot of really dumb stuff that makes it far (sometimes) on reddit. As such, most of the community regards Reddit as a silly place where no real discussion is had. But that is home to a lot of people who WANT that place to be taken serious... be an active part of that! Jokes are great, poking fun at players and people is fine and good but taking it to extreme levels shouldn't be allowed to passively happen.. do something about it. I used TL and Reddit as examples but there are countless places where SC2 is discussed.. clean up your youtube comments, block trolls on twitter and ignore them... ban all the hate you can find in your stream chat. If we can clean up this community by 1% we have made the SC2 world a better place for everyone.
4. A call to action
-That is exactly what I had said this was about and that is exactly what I mean to do. I will tweet this and ask for it to be retweeted. I will read each comment posted in here and interact with as many as possible.
Do your part. Retweet this. Didn't like how it was written? Rewrite it. Read it out-loud on your youtube, stream it, repost it.. share it. Rethink it.. post your own blog with your own version. Everything I wrote about is real and possible. I have worked within this community and industry enough to tell you that everything and anything is possible with SC2. Help me make 2011 a great year and 2012 a year of excess. Put SC2 in places it was never thought possible. Tell people who have never heard about it... do any and everything you can to grow this community and the game we love.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I am not the only one. - John Lennon
I normally have little to no respect for you, but this was a great post. I try to do a lot of the things you mention already but my resolve is renewed.
Incontrol I definitely agree, Starcraft 2 can achieve even more success (definitely huge) and needs our community's help to take it to the next level, good write up. I have had a lot of the same ideas as you and will definitely keep them in mind for the future.
You have several very good points and I standby my opinion that you might fit even better at some sort of PR position at EG. This just proves that point even further. You have a gift with words.
I don't understand how TV coverage is viewed as such a desirable achievement, though. The image I get in my mind of some network broadcasting SC2 is that of some figurehead with no knowledge or passion reading off of a teleprompter with no enthusiasm whatsoever. If they get someone like day9 or wheat to do it that is a different story.
at providence me and mango were walking to the venue, when we passed by that indoor stadium. one day we gotta have a finals in one of those, man. players can face each other in the center booth, there'll be big screens everywhere. actually, having a huge screen the size of the field that can display the entire game at once would be awesome. and we could make it team melee, where different pros can control different units on the same team. whoaaa
I enjoyed reading this. Incontrol has always struck me as someone who is a strong advocate for the growth of E-sports... even before the term was coined. We may have had our differences but I salute you for this (going to try to reach out to the fanny pack market)
I would love to see instead of a monthly tourney on ESPN2, a foreign proleague, or restructured GSL more along the lines of BW. ESPN could have 4 or so matches a week to show.
iNcontrol. I shall retweet this and post it on facebook. I hope more people start supporting SC2 and even esports in general. Many people look at esports and scoff, they think it's nothing big. They don't really look at it and it's time we start turning heads and making people do a double take. Together.
These are all really good ideas. I will definitely do my part to try and help esports/starcraft keep expanding by doing some of the things you suggested.
Great stuff you have written here, very well done and very true. I know I'll take this to heart and do my part to contribute. I bought my last keyboard, mouse, and headset because of SC2 team sponsorships and just today a friend was looking for a new headset and I recommended Steelseries because of EG, but I know I can do more and will try to. Keep it up Geoff, you're the best.
On November 22 2011 13:20 Brosy wrote: I agree with this post. 5/5.
I would love to see instead of a monthly tourney on ESPN2, a foreign proleague, or restructured GSL more along the lines of BW. ESPN could have 4 or so matches a week to show.
I have to agree with this. I think that a proleague style format could be a great deal more conducive to a television environment than would individual tournaments. Either that or an OSL style format. I could see a Starleague-style format also working quite well on TV.
Individual tourney's such as IPL or MLG tend to take up entire weekends and there really isn't a way for a TV network to justify devoting an entire weekend to that kind of thing. MLG's and such are vastly better geared for their current format (although MLG or IPL with ESPN level production would be amazing) but I could definitely see an OSL or proleague style system working great.
I don't understand how TV coverage is viewed as such a desirable achievement, though.
My thought on the matter is that TV is a lot more accessible to many people than a stream, of any kind. Also, television as a broadcast medium is generally more accessible than the internet. This would also reach many sporting communities, the kinds of people whose TV is stuck to ESPN.
I truly believe that you are the most passionate person in the SC2 scene. Keep it up man, eSports needs strong leaders like yourself to continue its growth.
On an unrelated note, it was a pleasure to get to meet and chat with you at Providence. Forever a fan my friend <3
5/5 Amazing post, I hope that people read this and it really makes them think about how everyone in the community can have a hand in making this game even better ^-^
"Please read, even if you think eSports is something stupid. Just read it. Otherwise, quite frankly, you're missing out. iNcontroL brought up good points, and I do believe we should all support this man's ideals. And if you don't know what he's talking about. I encourage you to learn more about the games that eSports revolves around, watch some streams, really focus on it. You'll realize that eSports has a lot more potential than you think."
It's what I wrote on Facebook. I know many of my friends on there hear me talk about MLG and all that and are like "What's that?" I link them to the streams and they have no clue what's going on but watch anyway. Hopefully this gets a little more involvement with esports.
Thank for this very well thought out and written post. It certainly gives some folks, like myself, a bit of direction and some ideas on how we can give back to this community. It never even occurred to me to do something like email a company and thanking for supporting a player/team/tournament and several other things you mentioned. I will certainly be bookmarking this post and checking it every so often and ask myself which of these things I can do to help grow this amazing community we have all put together.
Very well written. Geoff, you've played such a huge part in bringing people to this scene this past year. I can tell that you try so hard to make this scene really happen.
I will do my part. Got a 15 minute presentation in a class of 50 people about how great starcraft and esports is coming up. Spread the word people!
On November 22 2011 13:20 Brosy wrote: I agree with this post. 5/5.
I would love to see instead of a monthly tourney on ESPN2, a foreign proleague, or restructured GSL more along the lines of BW. ESPN could have 4 or so matches a week to show.
I have to agree with this. I think that a proleague style format could be a great deal more conducive to a television environment than would individual tournaments. Either that or an OSL style format. I could see a Starleague-style format also working quite well on TV.
Individual tourney's such as IPL or MLG tend to take up entire weekends and there really isn't a way for a TV network to justify devoting an entire weekend to that kind of thing. MLG's and such are vastly better geared for their current format (although MLG or IPL with ESPN level production would be amazing) but I could definitely see an OSL or proleague style system working great.
problem with this is all the players don't live in the same basic area, so all the game would have to be prerecorded in advance and then slowly shown or something like that. But we know with the NASL and IPL's 1 and 2, prerecorded games get old pretty fast and lose enjoyment. LAN is the only type of tournament that will fly on ESPN, so it complicates how they show it.
This post should be mandatory reading for everyone. You can help support players, you can help grow SC2, you can promote our eSport. Supporting players is easier than you think and way more effective than you think--for the time being, a direct line to players is easy and people should be supportive of this. What iNcontrol talks about with regards to this is something I've done in the past, and I've come to realize that they do listen, even when it seems like they don't.
Be supportive of players you like--I've seen the effect it has on people and what it means to them.
Wow, this post was totally awesome. I definitely agree with all of the points and I'm sure there will be none to disagree. I have to say my favorite point was the one of television; you made it seems SO awesome. I've never even given that possibility a thought, but in 5 years? maybe 10? At the rate that this game (and esports in general) is growing, I wouldn't be surprised. I actually can't wait until every company suddenly realizes "Shit, this could be a big deal" and jumps into it. Esports' day has yet to come, and I can't wait!
Edit: this needs to be spotlighted :p
Edit x2: will now be e-mailing sponsors of my favorite teams with thanks.
I would kill to know if Sundance approached UFC or if Dana White came to MLG. The fact UFC is running ads on MLG events is awesome. Absolutely brilliant. =)
Great post iNcontroL. Your passion really comes across.
I wish I had more time to be more actively involved, but like you said, I still try and do what I can as a more "passive" e-sports consumer. I try and expose my friends to streams and players, and now Monster is my energy drink of choice after they sponsored EG! You make a good point though, they need to know WHY i started buying monster. Otherwise, my purchases wont even be a blip on their radar. But making a point of telling the sponsors these things can only help them realize that this is a good investment.
I'll do my part, even if it is only the little things. I really hope a lot of those dreams can come true!
The passion you have for this game and community is just unbelievable. 10 out of 5. I was thinking of an idea for each team to have their own "reporter" that followed the player from that team, and he or she could tweet, blog, or post things that those players did. Perhaps getting more content on that player during the tourney, like sundance said, we don't see the players as much as we see casters.
I have more idea on this, but just throwing this out as an option. Main idea: Getting more content out on players during tournaments.
Well this is unexpected, I actually got inspired by this! Not just inspired to help eSports, but I've finally gotten an idea for SC2 machinima after reading this. I've been toying with the idea of SC2 machinima before, I've seen it done and I've tried a very basic one a while ago, but until now I could never think of ideas that would be easy to make work with SC2. Well, I got one now and I'm thanking you for that iNcontrol.
Though I have no idea how I could help eSports by making SC2 machinima, and hell, it'll suck until I keep trying at it, but I mine as well give it a shot!
Some of your points were very good, but it is hard to listen to you saying communities like TL and reddit need to be harsher when less than a year ago you were asking for GSL restreams and banning people on TL at the same time for it.
Good on ya Geoff! I've been sharing the same dream bud! Got about 40 ppl addicted to teamliquid, picking their favorite teams, players and streams! Got a lot of people to attend Barcraft Montreal, if there is one thing that's surprised me this year its how much love for the game there is worldwide. Hell, one dude (aZoX) decided to try a barcraft for MLG Orlando and ONLY with social media he got 600 people to attend. For Providence we got over twice that number and about 10 sponsors for the event... How can we not see this getting bigger? I swear to god I watched and discussed Leenock winning with people thrice my age like it was no problem.
Don't know what's coming up in the next few months, but SC2 is only moving forward and the people who jump on board early will win big time in the long run. Korea's been doing it for years, the World is now catching on and I'm proud to be a part of it! I <3 the people I bicker with on TL as much as I love the players, casters, teams, sponsors and the game itself. We are truly creating something unique here and it's pretty cool to see it all come together. Let's not just keep up the good work, but let's push it further than it's ever been. Kudos for the Battlecry to EG.iNcontroL.
I live 30 minutes from where MLG Orlando was being held. I would of loved to have attended but atfer seeing the previous MLG's I dont think it would be worth it to stand for hours and hours. IPL3 is the only exception as I noticed many empty seats, but perhaps that was because of the extremely long technical difficulties.
Until silly things like a sufficient amount of chairs is provided attendence to these events will be hindered. I'll have to support from the comfort of home for now.
...but the question I pose is, how does one get exposure to help the community?
I've interviewed TONS of the top SC2 players in the world (text interviews) and have been posting them on Cadred; I get around ~30 comments per interview from people that don't follow SC2 (they're CS-based). Every single time I've posted a thread on TL, it's been locked for "advertising" when all I want to do is help e-sports and SC2 as a whole... where can a kid like me that's been in e-sports nearly as long as I've been in school get the support I need to make an impact? I'm 18 and have been doing e-sports "stuff" for almost a decade now, whether it be supporting CoD4 PC team leagues, writing for websites, or just helping with community stuff.
Thoughts? Geoff? Anyone?
Just a few interviews (3 as proof, have nearly 100):
Good stuff.. Ill touch on a few things that you may be amiss on later though....but very good stuff.
I do challenge the statement that SC2 is the reason esports is as big as it is right now though..but you might see that coming from a die hard Quake Fan. Funny though..it's not about Quake.. but about media.. and online media specifically. I would say Twitch.TV and others like it have more to do with esports growth right now then most other things.
Its good on all fronts and it's a little bit of a lot of different things that are hitting on all cylinders right now.
One thing that can surely help the continued growth of esports.. is to actually support the smaller leagues/organizations.. don't just 'talk' about doing it.. actually do it. They are where your base will grow from. The NBA would be nothing if it were not for thousands of kids playing basketball with their buddies on weekends of the YMCA leagues and then the select team leagues.... these leagues are what feeds the MLG's and IPL's.
Great stuff though in the blog.. this kinda involvement in esports could be your thing bro.
Great Post, Instead of all these negative threads about" SC2 is goig in the wrong direction" Or E-sports is failing. Incontrol steps up shows what is positive and calls for more. He is right every single one of us has a part in this.
We can only go up from here, this game is shattering all of the disbelief that once surrounded it.
This was well-written. I feel inspired to do something now. =D I hope a lot of people read this, especially the part about being nicer to each other in the community. The stuff I sometimes read in chat on streams and in forums about casters, players, even management can be super nasty. Why is trolling and bashing the norm nowadays?
We're certainly trying the independent journalism thing at esfiworld.com. I think we can make it work.. we have the content but definitely need to keep growing. I obviously agree that it's important to have journalism that isn't associated with the teams, tournaments, etc.
I'm heading to law school next September and for awhile now I have pondered the ways in which I could contribute to Esports during my "year off" where I am working to pay my hefty tuition. I graduated with an honours degree in English and it will help me in some ways in my future studies but for the most part it will not apply. A project I have been thinking about is an biography on a popular player. I actually have an email prepared where I go into much greater detail about how I would go about doing this and why I believe it could be a great project. (The email is actually addressed to SirScoots ^__^). I'm being incredibly vague right now and have many ideas but am in a rush at the moment. Carmac recently tweeted that he believes players need more exposure and he blames a lack of esports coverage.
Now, I do not mean an interview online or a writeup. I mean a published work.
I wouldn't mind some input on this. I've only been dreaming up ideas for content but find myself intrigued by the possibilities.
Edit: Hey awesome you mention player agents! I started a thread about that a few weeks ago and it sort of fell to the wayside. However, there was some excellent feedback and I received several PMs about it. Did you happen to read it Geoff?
This is awesome, iNcontroL. I've already gone ahead and retweeted it as well as linked to it on facebook. It's a fantastic write-up that I think people should definitely make use of as a resource for getting involved. Hope it gets spotlighted.
This is a topic that's been around for a while now. It's been brought up by numerous parties and major characters in the scene.
But you took all of that and you brought it together, tied it together, wrapped it up with great writing, and backed it up with some powerful emotion. Well done Incontrol. You have inspired me and I hope a great many others.
Awesome write up man! I can a test to many of the points that you outlined here.
Let me just share something really quick here. I recently started up a small SC2 new shows called SC2 in review a few months ago and have been posting it here on TL, reddit and wellplayed. We do okay for ourselves and are still learning and going through growing pains but overall the response has been good. The slam dunk point here is that we couldn't have done it if it wasn't for the thoughtful comments from viewers, upvotes on reddit and views on TL. I feel like without that support and the communties patience with us we would have quit a long time ago. Fast forward to this past week at MLG where I got a chance to interact with a large number of players, coaches and other media as well as a few fans of my own and I can honestly say WOW. Small actions add up guys, thoughtful comments, well deserved critisms and overall support really make the difference. So please go out and support the people/organizations that you feel are doing a good job. You vote with your dollars and with your time. So thanks to all those who have helped us out in the past and have been helping us move forward.
Couldn't have said it better InControl, also thanks for the interview :D
Speaking of graphic design, I had at one point re-designed the StarTale logo for fun (you know, just jumping on the bandwagon because I thought they'd start changing it every week at that point)...
On a more serious note, great write-up. The growth of Starcraft 2 since it came out has been mind-boggling. I remember watching the GSL for the first time and thinking that was a huge deal. That a live audience of a couple hundred in the finals was a lot (obviously, I never followed Brood War).
I can honestly say that seeing the crowd at Blizzcon, hearing the chant for MMA when he beat MVP in the GSL October finals... I had shivers running down my spine. I wasn't even there live. I was sitting at home, watching on my cell phone because I forgot my laptop in my car that night. If that's how big this sport has become in such a short amount of time... the possibilities are endless.
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not. - Barry, "Dinner for Schmucks"
Brood War could use this too. I love it more than SC2, but it deserves the same sort of recognition; because without that core of passionate players that it had, SC2 would have not had the platform and early push it needed to get this far.
Couldn't agree more Geoff. Here's to 2012! I can't attend any events in person but will be sure to buy as many virtual stream tickets as I can, ala my 2011 :-D
Geoff, this was a fantastic post. You are one of my favorite players and always will be. The passion you have is contagious.
Just one little thing:
D. Create. This is an area where I think I will need to follow up on.. I fancy myself an ideas man. I love coming up with ideas for what we can do differently or new. I discussed this over drinks with Chobopeon, Kim Rom and a few others... (these will just be ideas, but this is a section where I encourage YOU to contribute!) free-lance journalism. We don't have it in SC2.
Well, we didn't have it in SC2 when it started, but I've seen a lot more stuff recently. Forbes.com and a couple of other places did interviews with Day[9]. I've started to see articles about the scene in mainstream places.
And also, in the spirit you mentioned of creating and doing rather than just waiting around, I wrote a couple of my own articles for Ars Technica:
In the second article I wrote about how I almost came up and talked to you and Anna at MLG Anaheim, but then chickened out (you were getting ready to play Boxer and I didn't want to disturb you). But anyway, just to say, I still think you're awesome. Keep being awesome.
It has several ways to contact the Mayor's office and I've already sent off a thank you note. Please take the time to do the same, as he and the city of Providence really did step up huge for us. The more positive response we can get to public officials for supporting eSports events, the faster we can become more "legitimate" to the world at large.
On November 22 2011 13:56 k1mjee wrote: ...but the question I pose is, how does one get exposure to help the community?
I've interviewed TONS of the top SC2 players in the world (text interviews) and have been posting them on Cadred; I get around ~30 comments per interview from people that don't follow SC2 (they're CS-based). Every single time I've posted a thread on TL, it's been locked for "advertising" when all I want to do is help e-sports and SC2 as a whole... where can a kid like me that's been in e-sports nearly as long as I've been in school get the support I need to make an impact? I'm 18 and have been doing e-sports "stuff" for almost a decade now, whether it be supporting CoD4 PC team leagues, writing for websites, or just helping with community stuff.
Thoughts? Geoff? Anyone?
Just a few interviews (3 as proof, have nearly 100):
Nice writeup. I really do agree with your whole talk about sponsors.
You talk about how we should all support the sponsors, how we should tell them how much we value the fact that they're helping e-sports so much, more importantly, how much they're helping our favorite players (I hope people understand, without sponsors, going a full-time pro-gamer just wouldn't be worth it) and our favorite teams. To me, they're what makes most of it happen and without them players wouldn't have the funds to be flown around all the time, to show us great games in different places around the globe. Could you imagine living in America and Europe, following SC2 so much, loving all the players but never managing to see any of the Korean gods like Nestea or MVP unless you go to Korea and watch the GSL yourself? Can you imagine a world in which the Europeans could never come to North America (or vice-versa) to provide us with great LAN games so we can finally conclude who is the better, NA or EU? Yeah, it's not a nice world is it? The sponsors make them come to place, they allow the players to interact with their fans on a more personal level, not just through letters and pictures over the internet.
Sponsors really do mean a lot, and they really should be shown a lot of love and respect for what they're allowing Starcaraft 2 to become; a globally recognized e-sport.
I'll throw an idea to the fray. An e-sports writer/journalist linked to an organization or even a freelancer can start a monthly blog/post focusing on and introducing a small scene, like, lets say the japanese community. A meet and greet with its best players, the up and comers, their casters, their esports celebrities etc. You could be aware of stephano long before his flamboyant appearance on major tours. I wanna know more about the Indian or the Argentinian scene and ofc make my own little world (the greek scene) known to others. Also united we form a much bigger audience thus making the industry much more profitable to big corps.
I'd love to write some freelance articles, but my question is would TL really want to host articles that spotlight other team members and would they really pay for them? Not that I haven't written for free before, but just a thought. I'd love to do some features.
You're right. Actually most of why people previously regarded "nerds" as social scrubs was due to us not expressing our passions clearly enough. Any encouragement of that has my full support. Change the view of the scene for the better in any way possible. I'll do as much as I can!
Has anyone considered how amazingly equipped the Dallas Cowboys Stadium would be for an event? The main stage right in the middle of the field with in house barcrafts going on. The hugest screen I've ever seen capable of broadcasting the game to the masses we could pack in that stadium. I bet you someone has to have thought of this before me.
Great post, Player agents was something I was talking to a couple of people about, specially after the reports that came out a couple of weeks ago about tournament winnings taking forever to get paid. It's a situation that just would not happen in other professional sports, no ones going to go through the effort and hardships to qualify for a grand slam if they know there is a chance it will take a year to get paid if you get paid at all.
The training required to get to the top level and stay there means you don't always have the mental capacity or time to chase these people up and it's something organizers know, they know they won't get calls and emails day in day out asking for owed money because none of the players are represented in any way shape or form. If players were represented and had the office full of people behind them giving their all for their clients the way other sporting agencies do you can guarantee event organizations will be going out of their way to ensure players get payed as they just don't want to have to deal with the agents, followed by debt collectors being sent after them.
very eloquently and passionately written. and i think you've done a great job illustrating not just what we can do, but why the world of esports (and sc2 in particular) is so exciting. especially now. it's in such a tremendous time of growth and achievement that all of us can participate in...and know that we are really contributing to something amazing.
my husband and i were already planning to introduce my parents/siblings to sc2 when we go visit them for xmas this year. reading this got me even more stoked to do that.
I admit to being a "lurker" to TL, and the SC2 scene, for quite some time. But after reading this post, I went and registered on TL just so I could reply and start getting more involved.
As someone who would love to see eSports grow, and someone who has a degree in Sport Management and extensive work in traditional sports and media relations, I know I have skills that could be useful to the community, but am unsure where and how to apply them.
I'll begin with searching for jobs with the well-known players in the industry, mainly because that's the only place I know to look. But maybe there are other possibilities of getting involved that I don't know of, or are overlooking, and would appreciate any help that people could offer.
I want to believe that the ceiling for eSports is much higher than what all of us could believe or imagine. Thanks for the call to action iNcontroL.
This is why I love INconttrol! You put into words something that many of us think about but don't talk about. Bravo for formulating your thoughts in a way that will truly get people to be part of the eSports revolution. =)
Registered just to reply to this article. Good read. First off, let me say that I have never played SC I or II. In the past few months I've become very engrossed in watching streams but haven't really felt the need to play the game myself, though it would obviously help me understand the game more. For me, this is like watching football, which I also do, and can see esports really coming in to their own. I am SHOCKED that the players don't have agents. Seriously: SHOCKED. I had thought of this a few months ago but assumed that they did have agents since they were on teams and such. Unreal. I had considered looking at being a sports agent after law school but decided that was a bit of a pipe dream for me and opted against it. I'm so tempted to look into doing something in the e-sports arena but there are so many moving parts and the massive international scene causes so many complications, some big, some small. Wow. There may not be agents but I would have to assume that players are taking significant contracts to a lawyer right? How are teams handling the sponsorships - Are players getting a cut or is their cut already put into their salary? Do tournament winnings go entirely to the player or does the player have to pay some to the team? Do players have incentive laced contracts? I don't expect (or want) a player to spill everything in public here per se but there are so many questions I have in this area... Yikes.
100% Agree with everything you say here, and I truly hope you inspire action from dormant content-creators. Good tournaments, getting sponsors for more online stuff, perhaps just organizing a local LAN at your school, getting co-workers "addicted" and supporting companies who participate in the growth of E-sports. Re-tweeted your blog, told friends about it, and I hope to do the scene proud in some way or other come 2012.
On November 22 2011 14:35 BFCrimson wrote: Has anyone considered how amazingly equipped the Dallas Cowboys Stadium would be for an event? The main stage right in the middle of the field with in house barcrafts going on. The hugest screen I've ever seen capable of broadcasting the game to the masses we could pack in that stadium. I bet you someone has to have thought of this before me.
Great post! I'm definitely going to be continuing to spread ESPORTs to as many friends as I can. I also really want to second the idea of just supporting players whenever you can. We've got pretty much unparalleled access to superstars of the community, in part because they want it that way. Let's show some respect for that!
Gotta say, was so convinced that this post, "A Decent Proposal" was a play on "A Modest Proposal..." and it'd be overblown satire! Glad I was wrong (Though if it was funny satire, sad I was wrong).
wealthiest self-employed business owner
No, no. If you're a CEO or small business owner, your job in ESPORTS is to accept the blame for being rich. For being the cause of so many problems. For hurting the unemployed, starving college kids under the burden of so much debt.
My personal plea to not kill the proverbial golden goose! Go ESPORTS!
Nice post from one of the more well-spoken members of the community. Only thing it's missing is a nod to the Barcraft movement, I think there's major potential there, especially if breweries start taking an interest.
On November 22 2011 14:35 BFCrimson wrote: Has anyone considered how amazingly equipped the Dallas Cowboys Stadium would be for an event? The main stage right in the middle of the field with in house barcrafts going on. The hugest screen I've ever seen capable of broadcasting the game to the masses we could pack in that stadium. I bet you someone has to have thought of this before me.
It costs like $24,000 PER HOUR to rent the stadium.
Yeah, but if 32,000 people attend (going off of what iNcontroL said) and charge a reasonable $50 per ticket and rent the stadium for an MLG (like what, 25-30 hours?) that still leaves MLG about a million in the black.
I love your dreamy ideas Incontrol but right now... I'm gonna stand with Sundance's business view of things... Just as he said in his latest interview on TL
Loved this. Every part of it. I usually have the bad habit of being passive in the community, but this post has inspired me to start doing what I can. You're right, it's really not that hard to spread the e-sports love.
As a slight aside, it was very exciting seeing you were interviewed by ESPN and MTV (or so I read on twitter?).
5/5 of course, I think we can all look forward to 2012 being much bigger than 2011 for Esports, I hope I be less of a spectator and contribute more to the community in 2012. (whatever way which helps)
Great write-up and very inspiring. I must admit that I have not thought of e-mailing any supporter, only of buying and supporting the company through positive thoughts and the occasional telling of a friend. Definitely going to think about what you put out there, and I really hope to see some great ideas from the 'idea man' himself. Retweeted, and I hope everyone gets to see this.
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Sweet post! Been thinking a lot lately myself about how I can involve myself in the scene of starcraft, as I honestly have no other real passion and become apathetic in comparison towards school. I am of the understanding that all it takes is really a full-time commitment, and a slight bit of luck or skill towards marketing yourself a bit, to make it decently at least. And making it in any sense in a business you are passionate about, is in my eyes better than surfing through life safe n' sound, with your 9 to 4 job.
Fantastic post. At ESFI World we try to provide as much independent, quality journalism and coverage of events as possible. Unfortunately, though, we have a limited budget and staff, making it hard to cover the scene as well as we would like. I strongly urge anyone who is at-all interested in getting involved in esports journalism and media coverage to contact us either via our contact page or email me (Ted Ottey, Managing Editor) directly at ted@esfiworld.com.
The biggest piece of advice I can give anyone looking to get into esports journalism/media is that everyone started somewhere. I've been doing esports media for over eight years across multiple games and have worked with some of the brightest in the industry and I can tell you with absolutely certainty those who succeed in this industry are individuals who don't sit around wishing or thinking things to happen. They're people who make stuff happen.
Once again Geoff, fantastic post. I hope people take the time to read the entire post through and again, if anyone is interested in getting involved in esports journalism/media, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Geoff, you are an amazing guy and this article exemplifies exactly why. Even if you never win a series in SC2 in any tournament for the rest of your career it wouldn't make a difference to me. Because this article is exactly how I view you. A progamer, yes, but you are the voice of team EG, the passion embodied, and the drive for us all to improve. Not just our gaming, but our support and our spread of sc2 and Esports. You are an amazing figurehead in this community and I want you to know that I love what you do. Keep your head up, your feet on the ground, and your legs pumping. You will get to where you want to be. <3 <3 <3
I know I'm not the only one out there that definitely follows the scene but doesn't participate (communicate) with the rest of the fan base and players. Incontrol, you're diligence is definitely paying off, spreading the word every day and trying to reinforce this idea of growth in a video game community is definitely working. These victories definitely add up. Hundreds like me will eventually start participating in one way or another.
For me, I finally took the time to make a TL account, a reddit account, and eventually I'll start following some of my favorite players on twitter. It's a bit embarrassing how late it is for me to finally do something. I guess I needed that push.
Anyways, 5/5 for the post. Regardless of your results, you are still a great player, capable of going deep in tournaments. Some of your results are just a testament to the growth of the rest of the competitive field in SC2. Keep up the good work!
5/5 I've known about Incontrol since Maven's Haven in Kali. I remember being nervous to even be in that room with the likes of Geoff, Maynard, and so many unbelievably good gamers even back to Warcraft II. I've always admired his passion for eSports. I distinctly remembering him being a dreamer even way, way back then. Geoff, great blog. I'll do my best with my part. I'm more of a spectator now a days but that's exactly why I believe in your message. SC2 appeals to more than those that play the game.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
This is one of the more selfish posts I've seen on this website. Who are you to decide that the players are devalued and that tournaments are no longer important? People in this community are passionate about this video game that you think should simply stay a "hobby." I've got some news for you buddy, it's no longer just a hobby. People spend all day every day practicing this game for their tournaments, and here you are trying to devalue what they do. Think about what is better for the players AND the viewers.
What Incontrol is proposing is an increase in quality of broadcasts and number of viewers, which will both significantly increase the quality of life of the players(more money) and will increase the enjoyment of the spectators(better broadcasts). I'm sorry to say that what you attempt to demonize as a "consumer-based enterprise" is actually necessary for the scene to continue to exist. Without increased commodification of the scene, it will simply die out, as it is built on marketing budgets and air. We have proven that there is money to be made in starcraft, and this will bring in the foundations to make it a lasting e-sport.
Perhaps instead of blindly dismissing anything someone has to say about "e-sports growing," you should instead focus on the actual underlying principles of what is being said, and what you really want out of this community.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
It may not be your dream, and it may be a hobby to you, but this is people's lives you are downplaying. This is how they make a living. You are criticizing someone for wanting to expand on their livelyhood. You are entitled to your opinion, but don't think for one minute that us posters are mindless oafs wandering around gobbling up every bit of "rah-rah" posts we can to make ourselves feel better. Some of us love SC2 and want to see it expand to bigger and better things. Does that mean spending some of your time and money? No.. it can, but it doesn't have to. As for the TV aspect.. what makes you think anyone other than an established caster would be solicited for the job at an ESPN? Do you really think they would hire some no knowledge scrub to get this brand new enterprise off the ground? The community would be outraged, ESPN is not that stupid. Why are you seeing fit to be? Open your eyes and think outside the box. Maybe then you will be a little less critical of someone's passion. However, I don't expect you to read this in the first place. But maybe someone will. And that is the whole point, no?
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
@mountaindewjunkie. cool name. not so cool post. but, to each his own.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Its shocking to hear that more money in the pool, more sponsorship, more awareness from blue chip companies and media is a bad thing for the scene.
Not everyone treat this as a hobby, professional players make a living out of it, you may treat it as a hobby but you can't say its a bad idea to build on the infrastructure for it to support more people who try to make it as a profession.
By your logic, every competitive sport is a niche and should be treated as a hobby. The Premier League generates billions of viewership and revenues across the world, and guess what, it start from being a hobby, the game isn't suddenly invented as a competitive sport with hundreds of satellite channels showing the game.
Of course you are entitled to not support or retweet this as you disagree. But nobody cares.
You be dreaming. We have a long way to go before we start packing stadiums to 32k.
Packing an arena (15-20k) is plausible. I definitely think the time has come to start thinking outside of convention centers.
There are a few convention centers like in Toronto where you can hold over 100k people, but 3 halls would suffice for now.
ESPN coverage could definitely happen and a highlight reel show of all the major LANs could happen on cable TV (second times the charm, right?), but in order for that to actually be viable I would think the providers would want at least a 0.4 TV rating in North America alone. Don't see that happening.
We really don't need TV/cable providers at this moment.
There is enough player support and as for social media. You guys have to find new ways of plugging shit rather than repeating it over and over. There are plenty ways of doing this including putting your ID's/twitter below you as you appear on screen before casting a match. Likewise, the same could be shown for players in the booths. We have the tech to do it, it's up to the producers to start implementing it. We don't want to hear you guys plug yourselves every five minutes.
Emails are impersonal and I rather not flood them in that matter. It's great if the general public want to send their thanks and support via Twitter as everyone can see it rather than just them, but Email flooding? No. I don't recommend that. If anything use the social media to show your support for them or if you see an executive at an event be sure to walk up to them and thank them for their tremendous support.
There are better methods.
I'm very unbiased but I rather not turn it into a job like you guys. You don't have to be biased just because you are tied down to an organization like EG. The fans will appreciate it a lot more if more when key contributors show unbiased opinions and tell it the way it is. You say you have to answer to someone higher up. I say good character is one of the most important tools you have.
I don't think you guys need player agents yet. You know what you need and what your contracts already entail. That and the scene is a revolving door at the moment. There are only a few guys that truly stand out above the rest and have proven time and time again that they can be household names. Consistency is a huge issue and it's detrimental. You might want to consider hiring legal aid, but you don't need an agent yet.
I can give you a short-list of personalities who might want to speak with an entertainment lawyer. This list includes: Day[9], Tasteless, Artosis, DJWheat, Husky and if you ever want to move to a desk maybe yourself too.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Oh good Lord--it took about 2 minutes of looking at your previous posts to understand you.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Its shocking to hear that more money in the pool, more sponsorship, more awareness from blue chip companies and media is a bad thing for the scene.
Not everyone treat this as a hobby, professional players make a living out of it, you may treat it as a hobby but you can't say its a bad idea to build on the infrastructure for it to support more people who try to make it as a profession.
Of course you are entitled to not support or retweet this as you disagree.
So you are going to trust 100% in the vision of the guy who less than a year ago was asking for GSL restreams (support esports guys)? I'm not saying I disagree with his general message but don't be so quick to jump on everything he said with no scrutiny.
This is an awesome post. I already try to get as much people as possible into SC2. I talk about it all the time at school, and have gotten quite a few into it. I also have a second sc2 account just for this. I tell people if they are not sure if they want to purchase the game that they can play on that second account, I teach them on there too. Hell even my senior project is about competitive SC2.
Sorry for the ramble, just wanted to point out how I love to show people this great game, and its community.
Bravo. I'll admit I have ideas that I haven't expressed or put time into, and I'm sometimes quieter than I should be. I'll think of this as my first step toward moving E-Sports forward!
Duravi you've been a troll in other threads that regard me as well.. so it's no real surprise to see you here doing the same.
News flash: Things I have done a year ago may contradict things I say/do in the future.. it's called growth. If you have something to say to my message please do. If you want to try and character assassinate to somehow attack my message that people should moderate themselves (I mean seriously, are you trying to fight this point?) by pointing out I myself was in need of that advice a year ago?
Really?
Didn't think so. Please function as a participating figure in the thread or move along and wait until SOTG tomorrow to start up your crap again.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Its shocking to hear that more money in the pool, more sponsorship, more awareness from blue chip companies and media is a bad thing for the scene.
Not everyone treat this as a hobby, professional players make a living out of it, you may treat it as a hobby but you can't say its a bad idea to build on the infrastructure for it to support more people who try to make it as a profession.
Of course you are entitled to not support or retweet this as you disagree.
So you are going to trust 100% in the vision of the guy who less than a year ago was asking for GSL restreams (support esports guys)? I'm not saying I disagree with his general message but don't be so quick to jump on everything he said with no scrutiny.
You need to remind me where did I say I support gsl restream. Also it's regardless of whatever incontrol have said in the past. You are focusing and hating on the person instead of this blog post.
On November 22 2011 16:09 iNcontroL wrote: Duravi you've been a troll in other threads that regard me as well.. so it's no real surprise to see you here doing the same.
News flash: Things I have done a year ago may contradict things I say/do in the future.. it's called growth. If you have something to say to my message please do. If you want to try and character assassinate to somehow attack my message that people should moderate themselves (I mean seriously, are you trying to fight this point?) by pointing out I myself was in need of that advice a year ago?
Really?
Didn't think so. Please function as a participating figure in the thread or move along and wait until SOTG tomorrow to start up your crap again.
Umm you are saying communities like reddit and TL need to get rid of people who do negative things. Asking for restreams while banning people doing the same isn't negative? So according to you they should have gotten rid of you? If you feel you deserve more chances why don't those same people you are pointing out? That is the only part of your post I disagree with. The rest is very good. I'm no troll, I've said positive things about you before as well, but apparently you only pay attention to the negative ones.
I completely agree as well. More people (including myself) need to examine what can be done to further the cause of eSports as a serious competition among professional teams and individuals.
After reading this, I started brainstorming possible venues that would be a good goal to aim for. Due to what I'm going to call MLG's multi-denominational environment, there really isn't a good venue format beyond what they already have. Renting Exhibit Halls lends itself perfectly to division of the eSports events involved. One hall for CoD, one for LoL, one for Halo, and one for SC2. It's perfect for different stages and different competitions.
However, when it comes to single events such as a stand-alone Starcraft Tournament, I think existing sporting arenas provide great spaces to watch games. Take a basketball venue. You gain better seating capacity and even get assigned seating, you get built-in audio/video systems from jumbotrons and speakers, and you have access to event facilities such as concession stands, restrooms, even a souvenir store if desired. You also gain a large floor space (the court itself) to setup additional seating, staging, and special areas for things like autograph signings during the event. But their capacity really doesn't exceed much beyond 18,000-20,000... which is close to current eSports attendance.
To advance it further, why not hit Baseball Stadiums. Outdoor ones excluded (rain and technology never mix well), a domed facility still provides all the features of a basketball arena, while giving more capacity and more floor space on the field itself for pool play, autograph signing, and more.
Finally... the grand-daddy of them all.... Football Stadiums. Capacities into the 60-80,000. Take Cowboys Stadium. Can you imagine a SC2 game up on their giant screen over the field? Skyboxes could be used as practice lounges for teams or boxes for event sponsors. Massive capacity for spectators and field-level events too.
And with any venue... what about extra fan interactivity? What if your smart phone or iPad could give you real-time information about the games being played. Check a player's production queue of the game you're watching live on your phone and see how long that Colossus is going to take before it pops out. Find out how many workers were killed so far. Blizzard really could jump on the eSports bandwagon if they offered some kind of API to the tournaments to allow for the game stats to go out live beyond just one screen. New on-screen graphics tournament-branded, interactive player apps for iPhone/Android to show game status and tournament results. The possibilities are endless with an API. Who knows what someone might think of.
Finally... to assist tournaments that rely on replies... how about a multiplayer replay capability? Let more than one person view/sync to a single replay file to improve commentary provided by a team of casters. This again goes back to Blizzard taking the initiative to get eSports to the next level.
But even without Blizzard's help... there is much we can do to further eSports... retweet, repost, like, promote. Don't just participate on gaming forums. Participate on global forums. Bring new people. Watch a tournament in your living room and invite your friends. Like iNcontroL said... "do anything and everything you can".
Did you guys know that a majority of GSL's viewership is from Korean television (only covers Code S)? A call for televised SC2 has been done in a thread before, but his views were rather extreme.
I believe that SC2 should eventually be televised as it is without changes to format, style, or approach. Actively watching a stream (or god forbid download a media player) is viewed as 'too much effort' for a lot of people. There are hundreds of thousands of potential casual viewers who would follow a SC2 broadcast program with a strategically placed time slot on cable TV.
The question is: Is there a network intelligent enough to execute it successfully?
On November 22 2011 16:17 Remb wrote: Did you guys know that a majority of GSL's viewership is from Korean television (only covers Code S)? A call for televised SC2 has been done in a thread before, but his views were rather extreme.
I believe that SC2 should eventually be televised as it is without changes to format, style, or approach. Actively watching a stream (or god forbid download a media player) is viewed as 'too much effort' for a lot of people. There are hundreds of thousands of potential casual viewers who would follow a SC2 broadcast program with a strategically placed time slot on cable TV.
The question is: Is there a network intelligent enough to execute it successfully?
This might be going to the "enemy" in SC2's case... but what about partnering with a console to stream content. XBOX Live already boasts ESPN 3's live streaming sports games. The same could be done with SC2 tournaments... or any tournament for that matter. I agree cable is the easier choice for some viewers... but consoles are another alternative content delivery system that could be utilized.
I had to make a TL account after reading this post. Thank you Geoff for this amazing post. I've just recently started watching the tournament scene when Raleigh happened this year. Before that I would just occasionally watch a game on youtube. Myself and two friends went to the first BarCraft event hosted in Pittsburgh, PA. Ever since then I've been watching every bit of SC2 that I can. I helped start the Pittsburgh BarCraft / StarCraft group and have tried to spread the word as much as possible.
I recently started putting on episodes of Funday Monday on when I have friends over to play Magic: The Gathering and a whatever else we decided to do with our time. I posted about MLG on my Facebook wall and just recently started adding players and the like to my Twitter account as well.
I'm glad to see someone with actual competitive experience make a post like this supporting everything the community has been doing and encouraging us all to do more. It's also very refreshing to see so many people on Reddit and TL that are excited about the growth of e-sports as I am.
Keep doing what you do. Both for your team and the community. It's really encouraging to see so much passion coming from not only the viewers and spectators but from the players, casters, producers and sponsors as well.
Great post loved reading every word of it and I can't agree with you more. This post is really inspiring going to start trying a little bit more to spread the word.
I support Incontrol 100% as the leading voice in the push for SC2! Anything to push eSports I'm a fan of.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
Stepping on the soap box again, eh?
You have nearly 6,000 posts on a Starcraft forum, I think you're the last person that should be spouting this kind of shit off.
Wauw Geoff. Incredibly writeup! really enjoyed it, and i think what you talk is really relevant. I try to do most the things you talk about, but this will encourage me to do even more! thanks geoff! <3
On November 22 2011 14:35 BFCrimson wrote: Has anyone considered how amazingly equipped the Dallas Cowboys Stadium would be for an event? The main stage right in the middle of the field with in house barcrafts going on. The hugest screen I've ever seen capable of broadcasting the game to the masses we could pack in that stadium. I bet you someone has to have thought of this before me.
I think MountainJewJunkie has some valid points. I liked the one about contracting - sc2 looks like a giant clusterfuck right now. There is no way in hell tournaments like OP suggested would happen "once a month", that's just absurdity. People will not drive for 10 hours every 4 weeks, that's not how market works. If it's twice a year - sure, you can gather a stadium, but that's about it. Also the level of interest needs to be assessed beyond 1 year of MLG, most of the fans are still short-term viewers, they might ditch sc2 for any other major game that comes out, like D3 or w/e. So yeah, OP is fantasizing a bit too much for my liking.
HSL's with you incontrol! In April when my friend and I joked about starting a highschool team league we never imagined 100 teams and being partnered with CSL and all the wonderful things that have come from it, everyday I will keep being an active member like I have and do my very best to spread esports in what small way I can by trying to reach the next generation and make sc just like HighSchool football or soccer, to the future!
On November 22 2011 16:09 iNcontroL wrote: Duravi you've been a troll in other threads that regard me as well.. so it's no real surprise to see you here doing the same.
News flash: Things I have done a year ago may contradict things I say/do in the future.. it's called growth. If you have something to say to my message please do. If you want to try and character assassinate to somehow attack my message that people should moderate themselves (I mean seriously, are you trying to fight this point?) by pointing out I myself was in need of that advice a year ago?
Really?
Didn't think so. Please function as a participating figure in the thread or move along and wait until SOTG tomorrow to start up your crap again.
InControl taking the high road, like a boss.
Only the Critics(TM) are allowed to change their positions at will. They can call a player a washed-up nothing, and when he comes back, claim you saw that coming a mile away. You're anonymous. You're the crowd. Real life isn't like that. It isn't made up of pure noble sentiment and flawless white knights.
I'm really compelled to aggree with the self-moderation urge in the internet community. Companies don't wanna support a sector that will lash out the second it perceives something wrong. The best of us gotta rise to the challenge and let others know that the company you praised for backing a pro-team just yesterday isn't know you should shout a string of expletives over some new product that doesn't suit you. I'm not saying the vitriol will stop just because there's a vocal consensus that it ought to, but the more you let the people around you know that you moderate your responses, let it play out in time--that's improvement. The fact that Geoff sorta stands out as a tough-guy that whines a lot is because he's one of the few the regularly addresses the problem. Start a Drama thread on TL and you're gonna get responses like flies to .... well ... you know. That's nature, that's one level. The next is letting that kind of behavior characterize the entire community. Trash on the SC2 noobs, trash on the casters that are uninformed, compare both to every vile thing your mind comes up with. THAT behavior shouldn't be tolerated, and thank God TeamLiquid moderates that extensively (KellyMilkies for ex.) Personally practice behavior that rises above the internet cesspool at large. My two cents.
Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon. Negativity does not equal hurting esports. It is a pressure the community can apply on individuals or events to improve. After this Blizzcon it is hard to imagine the next will have as poor of coverage, and immediately after they hired people for esports specifically. By saying TL and reddit should be stricter on those you would stifle that pressure. Community negativity has a purpose and a place. Yes it is dumb when people hate on you for playing Deus Ex 3. But if you try to stop people from complaining about stupid shit like that the moderation may bleed over into things that could actually help. Freedom comes with a price.
On November 22 2011 16:41 Duravi wrote: Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon.
You can be critical without being a spiteful jackass, that's his point.
I was also expecting to to be about your sub-par proposal to Anna at a run-down local restaurant where she only said yes because it's you, despite the terrible terrible setting it was situated in.
On November 22 2011 16:41 Duravi wrote: Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon.
You can be critical without being a spiteful jackass, that's his point.
So you don't think all the spiteful jackasses had anything to do with the massive improvement of MLG?
I actually wonder a lot about what effect does writing an email to a company that sponsored X player/event/whatever has. I mean yeah it should be great, but I want to know how great is it and on in what way.On the other side, love emails are not as good as a 200% income increase, and may be even sad to see a 0% increase in sales with a ton of love emails.
I would love to see those 10 documentals finally come out, I would love to see an MLG hosted in Mexico, I would love to see more products like vizene or beer or band-aids on an esports event, not major companies, but diverse products, products each and everyone of us needs and are not related to computers. That will be the day
Great post. I've been wanting to help contribute to e-sports in some manner beyond paying my MLG and GSL (cant afford more) subscriptions, and this thread has definitely given me some more ideas about how to do so.
I really wish you could take on some other role within an organisation beyond being a player Geoff. I know playing is your focus I just can't help but think your views, insight and charisma could be of more value to the industry than your star power.
IMO Section 2B is crucial and on point, considering the amount of complaining regarding fees/passes/tickets. Maybe you can't buy all the tournament passes/team shirts/sponsoring products, but you can sure as hell write an e-mail/give a social media shoutout to a host city's mayor/chamber of commerce, your favorite team/player/tournament's sponsors, or the manager of an establishment that hosted a barcraft. Even when you're just watching streams/browsing TL it doesn't cost you anything to watch/look at a few ads. Posting on Starcraft specific sites to congratulate tournaments organizers/sponsors/players is great, but to outsiders (which a majority of corporate sponsors/various venues are) it doesn't amount to much. When they see the value, they will want in and value is measured in terms of statistics.
ETA: while you may not get a personalized response from the CEO of a company if you contact them, rest assured they have people keeping tabs on these things, and often times people in charge of reading and responding to any e-mails/letters/etc.
On November 22 2011 16:41 Duravi wrote: Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon.
You can be critical without being a spiteful jackass, that's his point.
So you don't think all the spiteful jackasses had anything to do with the massive improvement of MLG?
Constructive criticism is always warranted. How you initiate it is an entirely different story.
I've always used cheapy $10 mice and never really understood the fascination with spending so much money on a mouse. When my last mouse died, I needed a mouse, and decided to shop around. In the end I bought a Razer Death Adder, my decision was based off a mix of good reviews, and some of my favorite players using that mouse, and teams (Slayers) being sponsored by Razer.
I have bought products from companies that support e-sports. I have followed players and teams on Facebook and Twitter. I have let players know how awesome I think they are either in person (at events like MLG) or through PM's.
On November 22 2011 16:45 Grobyc wrote: I was also expecting to to be about your sub-par proposal to Anna at a run-down local restaurant where she only said yes because it's you, despite the terrible terrible setting it was situated in.
On November 22 2011 16:41 Duravi wrote: Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon. Negativity does not equal hurting esports. It is a pressure the community can apply on individuals or events to improve. After this Blizzcon it is hard to imagine the next will have as poor of coverage, and immediately after they hired people for esports specifically. By saying TL and reddit should be stricter on those you would stifle that pressure. Community negativity has a purpose and a place. Yes it is dumb when people hate on you for playing Deus Ex 3. But if you try to stop people from complaining about stupid shit like that the moderation may bleed over into things that could actually help. Freedom comes with a price.
Criticism is good when it is well presented with clear argument, not the content-less 1-2 line rants/trolls you see most of the time. The idiocy really get out of control a lot of time on Reddit and (to a lesser part due to stricter moderation) TL.
Maturity will definitely attract more investors into the scene and outsiders will be more comfortable in finding out what this ESPORTS thing is about.
On November 22 2011 16:48 theBizness wrote: IMO Section 2B is crucial and on point, considering the amount of complaining regarding fees/passes/tickets. Maybe you can't buy all the tournament passes/team shirts/sponsoring products, but you can sure as hell write an e-mail/give a social media shoutout to a host city's mayor/chamber of commerce, your favorite team/player/tournament's sponsors, or the manager of an establishment that hosted a barcraft. Even when you're just watching streams/browsing TL it doesn't cost you anything to watch/look at a few ads. Posting on Starcraft specific sites to congratulate tournaments organizers/sponsors/players is great, but to outsiders (which a majority of corporate sponsors/various venues are) it doesn't amount to much. When they see the value, they will want in and value is measured in terms of statistics.
ETA: while you may not get a personalized response from the CEO of a company if you contact them, rest assured they have people keeping tabs on these things, and often times people in charge of reading and responding to any e-mails/letters/etc.
Agreed! In ANY professional sport if you went out to tried to buy every team-sponsored product you'd go broke. But you can still give eSports the best possible promotion that doesn't cost you a dime... just a little bit of your time. Retweet, repost, like, and promote. Contact the sponsors via their Twitter and Facebook accounts. Look what happened with the GSL when Pepsi sponsored them? Tastosis told viewers to tweet at Pepsi thanking them and Pepsi came back with a fan contest! They heard loud and clear from the fans that their sponsorship was appreciated and they took notice of it!
On November 22 2011 16:45 Grobyc wrote: I was also expecting to to be about your sub-par proposal to Anna at a run-down local restaurant where she only said yes because it's you, despite the terrible terrible setting it was situated in.
Oh well... I suppose this is decent anyway.
Exactly my thoughts :O
I originally thought he was going to say something about Tumba's proposal or some shit like that and then I saw the wall of text and I was like, "Oh boy, this cannot be good."
He's definitely a dreamer. Anyway, I already said my spiel a few pages down. Take it for what you will. As nice as Geoff's ideas sound, there are better ways of implementing some of them, others we don't quite need and as for the rest? We aren't quite ready for.
I ask everyone who read's his blog to think critically about it rather than just be Yes Men. It's one thing to say something; it's another thing to do it.
Fine read, but could be better yes, the message is 5/5, but the blog isn't. Get some graphics or structure it in a better way.
And inC, I don't know about saving lives, that honestly sounds like a troll to me, but you DO make a difference. No, I'm not gonna be all like "you're my favorite player" or spout any other biased shit which would pretty much make my statement void, I'm just gonna outright say, you do make a difference in SC2, and thus in A LOT of peoples lives.
Have a good life, and we'll all conquer this world.
Very good summary, and I feel that this is snowballing to be the way you want whether or not people are actively "trying to help e-sports." Ppl just like to watch and thats all that it needs for the natural progression into mainstream.
On November 22 2011 15:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Can I interrupt this unapologetic stroke-fest?
You're still a good salesman, Geoff. I remember when everyone slurped up your promotion of the first NASL.
Anyway, your dream of SC2 is certainly not mine. Your dream sounds like turning esports into a MAJOR cash cow consumer power, like other sports league, such as say the NFL. Watch our games, buy our products, buy our sponsor's products, pay for my coaching, pay for exclusive memberships, and so on.
This fits well with your wanting coverage of esports to be like that of ESPN. ESPN certainly has a successful business model financially, but take a closer look at what it would be like to have esports of this variety: 24-hour coverage of every little sc tournament, a bunch of talking heads, so-called analysts that will over-analyze every minor detail to its death and make reckless blanket statements about the game and playesr, tons of time devoted to rumors and gossip and "off-monitor" incidents and infractions, trades, signings, interviews, and so on, so we can all follow along like drones.
This is a very rah-rah post where we're all supposed to "improve" esports by spreading its goodness across cyberspace and expanding its power! We will sell it to everyone!
I think the scene needs a lot of work. If anything, it needs to contract, not expand. There are so many events, so many tournaments, so many players, everyone seems to have at least one decent accomplishment under their belt. They're devalued, in a way, because they are so numerous.
I will not retweet this, I will not like this, I do not gobble everything said by veteran posters or progamers, I have a hard time trusting anything you say, crafty though you may be. You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
this is has some good points
I dont want sc2 to become a conglomerate, but I would like to see it succeed, I think we need less tournaments but better tournies
I wish I had more connections with people in places that could use me. I'm honored to have people out to barcraft, but I feel like I could do so much more.
InControl wants more money. Its cool, but really you're not bettering eSports. You're increasing cash flow to your pocket. Good for you, but don't constantly hide behind "its better for the community, its for the community".
I agree with the spirit of iNControl's post, but not the message. While it is great for e-sports to expand, we must also be cautious at the same time. Too much rapid expansion may trigger sponsor bubbles and the effects of hundreds of millions of dollars pouring in is still unknown on e-sports as a whole. The current structure between players, fans and the tournament establishments must be examined and possibly reformed if it is going to handle exponential growth over the coming years. I do not want my MLG or NASL being locked out over player salary disputes. I do not want sponsors to leave rapidly when the returns on their investments are not what they expected due to too much fan mail and not enough buying.
These are all points that I have not elaborated upon and unfortunately I do not have the time to give them the proper argument they deserve. Nevertheless, I think caution and some more discussion on the possible negative impacts of growth on the e-sports scene is needed very much in here. When the fan base increases exponentially, so does the money and so does the greed factor. I do not intend to troll, I merely wish for people to start discussing rather than posting 1-2 sentences about how much they agree with 5/5.
cant believe the trolls even showed up in this thread...pretty much proves that nobody from EG can say anything without getting hated on... Once again losers try to twist and mess up an awesome message from a very important part of our community
Your (our) dream will come true soon enough. If u asked me 5 years ago: Will u ever see such huge events in e-sports that are accepted internationally and witch bring not only players but ppl together to enjoy e-sports? I would have said "no..but i dream it will" ... now 5 years later we see it starting...and it didn't start with a few ppl and streams..it actually started in brute force.
The fact that it started in such an aggressive way just shows u how much ppl were wanting this and for how long they waited. We just needed something to spark it inside us..and that was SC2... (sry CS/Dota/LoL..and other games but even if u are e-sport games..u would have never had this impact on e-sports..that sc2 had..let's be serious..no game would have ever had bar events dedicated solely to an e-sport game, that bring people physically together).
I am now 100% sure that in 3-5 years from now...what Incontrol says (and what we all hope) will come true.
Let's put it another way... we are "the next generation" of politicians....parents, etc. We are all gamers even if soft or hardcore. We know what the beauty and impact of a well made game could have on lives. We will probably be even playing side by side with our kids then QQing that "Z/P/T are OP" on the forums because our kids cheesed us LOL
The future iNcontrol is talking about is closer then he thinks...and for someone who is part of a non-esport country but always craved to see e-sports grow..it almost brings tears of joy to my eyes.
I don't follow yours or any other SC2 notable's exploits, so forgive me if this seems unbecoming. We the non-Korean eSports community have had this discussion before with this and other games. I see the merit of a pep-talk for those who believe in SC2 as a viable large-market sport. What this blog fails to address is why anyone else should feel this way. If your scope would have been to broad, I understand. I just don't see what a "rallying of the troops" does for SC2.
I support cleaning up forums and such, but active consumerism based on who has a hand in the SC2 scene just seems phony. And, that whole section about consuming in general felt somewhat like product placement. The logic seems sound, but wouldn't outreach to a potential competitor encourage more revenue and exposure? Creating an insular system of advertising and promotion has worked very well for SC2 in its infancy, but what if ASUS suddenly loses interest? Or maybe a company's stock goes way down, and they can no longer fund a $50k tournament.
The passion is there for the game, which is nice to see, but I do fear too fast a monetization of the game's assets. Maybe I'm just too blase to have the right fervor for SC2's rise. I would definitely be curious to see a well-done survey of SC2 players in relation to SC2 competition viewers. Is it a healthy percentage or a rabid fan base?
Appreciate the article, but question the merits of putting SC2 on the march. Why does moving more cash around make the game/community better?
Read every word and loved it. Fantastic post, I agree completely and will endeavour to make SC2 bigger and better at (well, social circumstances accepting) every opportunity.
I have always been a fan of Blizzard games ever since I first laid eyes on Warcraft II, and I have never once looked back despite the hard times I have been through growing up as a social outcast. I've been through so many different games and so many different sports, but for some reason I have never been ever to let go of Starcraft. There is just something about it that I cannot describe that sucks me in every time I try to get away from it, whether that be a good or bad thing. I love and hate this game for the experiences it's given me, but regardless of how I feel, it doesn't matter anymore, this game has become a serious part of my life.
I've never been to a concert or a sports game, I was never able to justify the money spent with the experience it would contribute to my life, but I found myself at an MLG event only but a year after I was introduced to Starcraft 2. I traveled to the United States for the first time in my life to support E-Sports, and I could not be happier. This game, this community, this... sport... is amazing. I still can't wrap my head around it. I mean, I've always dreamed of such a thing, but I'm a rational person, I know when something is simply not probable, but in this case I couldn't have been more wrong and happy as hell about it.
Your words have inspired me, although I feel like I have done a huge deal towards E-sports, supporting events, streams, social media, local tournaments, online tournaments, sponsors, teams, players, and the game itself, I feel like you're exactly right. It is as much my responsibility as it is yours that we further our medium to the next level. We can and will bring our passion to everyone in the world and we will do it in the most honorable and sincere way possible, simply because our community tops all others.
I thank you all for your dedication, I still cannot believe how many people share my passion.
Let us finish this year with a blast, and make next year even better!
Inspirational Nice write up man! Personally, I will write emails to thank Razer for their sponsorship of TL. I even got a twitter account to promote Esports. I suggest my fellow nerds heed the call, and start taking action like Mr. InControl is saying As a community, if we step up, the effects can be huge. Like on a crazy lvl. I for one, will do what i can! GOgogogo!
Well i was bored in class so i started reading tl on my cellphone. i saw this blog, opened it and started reading, reading and reading. took me a while but it was worth it. Great read and i like dreaming too. Hopefully we can all make ESPORTS even bigger than it currently is.
I stumbled into SC2, just by curiousity. Typed in a 'SC2 finals' into youtube and away I went! Team Liquid, Streams, tournaments, bought the game... etc.
I then convinced 2 friends to join me to a barcraft event. They're both followers of SC2 now and in turn we have gotten 6 more people involved and I'm sure our influence will keep spreading and we will definitely do our part and will spread the word.
You are an inspriration Geoff! Many thanks for all you have done and what you'll carry on doing!
On November 22 2011 16:36 discodancer wrote: I think MountainJewJunkie has some valid points. I liked the one about contracting - sc2 looks like a giant clusterfuck right now. There is no way in hell tournaments like OP suggested would happen "once a month", that's just absurdity. People will not drive for 10 hours every 4 weeks, that's not how market works. If it's twice a year - sure, you can gather a stadium, but that's about it. Also the level of interest needs to be assessed beyond 1 year of MLG, most of the fans are still short-term viewers, they might ditch sc2 for any other major game that comes out, like D3 or w/e. So yeah, OP is fantasizing a bit too much for my liking.
The idea of contraction is an interesting one. I think once a month would work, but maybe it would be in the format of having 1-4 'Major' ones, and the others being a little smaller. If 4, it would be like the 'grand slams' in sports like tennis and golf. If 1, it would be like MLG right now. Having a monthly large tournament would work if there aren't a hundred other tournaments going on throughout the year. Right now in USA alone there's MLG, IPL, NASL with multiple tournaments a year. There are also things like IEM NYC and others I can't think of right now. Outside of USA, there are others like Dreamhack and the rest of the IEM tournaments. Then there are the qualifier tournaments that add to this.
Ideas to consider: If the model of 1 monthly tournament were to happen in USA, how would it? Would it be by one of the major 3 'winning', or the three working out a way to co-exist. Would it work to have each of the three run 4 tournaments a year, either in a row or alternating? If one wins, how should it be formatted with concerns to how many ''championship" tournaments and how many "regular" tournaments? Also, would it be a monthly weekend LAN like previous tournaments in USA, or would it be Korean style like GSL, with games all month? If it's GSL style, it will conflict with GSL, and I don't know if that's a winnable battle when trying to get the best players in the world to come compete (at least not right now). If it's a monthly weekend LAN, it could be scheduled to not conflict, and both can accommodate the best players in the world.
I don't think the idea of contraction in terms of the number of large tournaments contradicts what he was saying. This is more about having more viewers, more sponsors, and helping out the players more.
I think it should there should be a mention about not using Adblock (or disabling it just for SC stuff). I think it's a pretty important topic.
I thought the title was a reference to the book/movie "Indecent Proposal". Was that your intention?
Stuff like this makes me admire you even more! Great post, will definetly look into doing some of these things whenever possibel, and i hope other will heed your call aswell.
Especially the story about the Australian floods, being Australian myself (personally unnafected by the floods) I have a strong connection with that disaster
On November 22 2011 18:17 sharkeyanti wrote: I don't follow yours or any other SC2 notable's exploits, so forgive me if this seems unbecoming. We the non-Korean eSports community have had this discussion before with this and other games. I see the merit of a pep-talk for those who believe in SC2 as a viable large-market sport. What this blog fails to address is why anyone else should feel this way. If your scope would have been to broad, I understand. I just don't see what a "rallying of the troops" does for SC2.
I support cleaning up forums and such, but active consumerism based on who has a hand in the SC2 scene just seems phony. And, that whole section about consuming in general felt somewhat like product placement. The logic seems sound, but wouldn't outreach to a potential competitor encourage more revenue and exposure? Creating an insular system of advertising and promotion has worked very well for SC2 in its infancy, but what if ASUS suddenly loses interest? Or maybe a company's stock goes way down, and they can no longer fund a $50k tournament.
The passion is there for the game, which is nice to see, but I do fear too fast a monetization of the game's assets. Maybe I'm just too blase to have the right fervor for SC2's rise. I would definitely be curious to see a well-done survey of SC2 players in relation to SC2 competition viewers. Is it a healthy percentage or a rabid fan base?
Appreciate the article, but question the merits of putting SC2 on the march. Why does moving more cash around make the game/community better?
What sharkeyanti says.
I mean no disrespect (nor troll), but weighing the success of a sport by the money it generates sounds very "american". I like InControl's ideas on social media and raising awareness, but the whole consumerism part is actually scary to me.
While I just wanted to raise that objection I have not doubt in InControl's passion and dedication to that game. Thanks for that!
Amazing thread, well written and touches the very core of a passionate SC2 fan. A pure pleasure to read.
InControl, you have the potential to be one of the most influencing personalities in all of sc2 history!
Off topic: In chance you will read this, I have seen your stream, and I came to the conclusion that your current hotkey layout/setup is probably slowing your gaming potential. I would love to write/talk with you about it because I got a lot of ideas which I would like to share. I am currently working on some tutorial videos (in danish) and I would love your view on exactly this matter (hotkeys). If you are interested please PM.
Just in case, this is not me trying to put you into a bad spotlight. I hope this message doesn't come out that way!
inControl for President of World Federation of E-Sports Association!!
on a serious note: A very awesomely written blog post. pleasure to read and will do whatever I can for E-Sports, still whatever I do is nothing compared to what uve done for e-sports and the community. props. keep up dude.
As much as I hope starcraft becomes as mainstream as Football (not handegg, although that's cool too) or Hockey, I can't help but worry that all this "do your part"-stuff is artificially inflating an esports-bubble that will run a greater and greater risk of bursting as people lose interest and quit.
This post is well written, and it seems like the majority in here likes it. I kind of get a religious-commercial mass seduce vibe from this though, not sure if i like. lol
I might be classed as a selfish bastard but I have only one question if somebody could clarify:
Why would I as a viewer want sc2 to become huge ?
All top players would say hell yeah i want bigger prize pool and more tourneys because i want to make bling-bling but for a viewer what sc2 becoming huge could mean ? Most of the viewers would follow blindly what their idols say but i do have this worry:
If sc2 gets too big then we have a big yummy cake from which many will try to get a bigger slice. If sc2 is broadcasted on tv we might get tournaments with exclusive broadcasting rights (idk how happy the tv station would be to sign a contract and have the stream be available online aswell), maybe we get payperview etc. For example after the GSL success which had a free stream we got AOL to follow which wasn't free anymore. (This is still a game and probably a large majority of players/viewers are too young to have a way to buy online tickets and whatnot to view those events. Or they just can't afford the 10-20$)
Also too big prizes might hurt aswell since some great players who could provide entertaintment of highest caliber to us would feel too big to train 8-12 hours a day when they have several hundread thousand $ in their bank account. I just assume many top players if they had the money they wouldn't waste their youth in front of a monitor - i might be wrong. And also with huge prizes you get thausands more Leenok wannabe who don't go to school hoping for 1 Jackpot in sc2 to change their life. And inevitably most of them will get no education and fail in sc2 too.
Don't get me wrong, I would love a couple more big offline tournaments but if sc2 changes from "home game" to an industry I wonder if the change would be good or bad.
Great read Mr. iNcontrol! As someone else pointed out, you really have a gift with words
And I agree with you to 99%... I'm just not sure about TV. Seems like the whole TV-Entertainment-Business is pretty aweful/corrupt. I wouldn't want my favourite players and casters to have to censor or change themselves just to be on TV.
IMO TV is dying slowly but surely anyway. It's all going to be about the internet in the future, so I think we'd be better off prioritizing Streams etc. much more heavily than old-school TV. Don't forget that a LOT of people are watching all these tournaments and streams from Europe, Asia, Africa and Australia (etc.) too. And we might not get ESPN 2 or any of these other channels on TV (at least I don't). (Please don't ever let shows like SOTG be only on TV)
So while going on TV might reach a broader US-audience, the rest of the world probably won't benefit from it at all... or will they stream the tournaments for the rest of the world? Most likely not. And don't think that other sports-channels would pick it up fast around the world... I could barely watch basketball on tv where I live -.-
Great post sir, i would just like to say that although Ive been critical of you in the past when you were stating opinions on other people in the scene that perhaps should have been left for friends in private, that over the last 6months of 2011 you've really impressed me with correcting these mistakes and demonstrating that you are an ambassador for the scene, you're a big boy Geoff and so you know where you could have done things differently and i would like to wish you all the best for 2012 personally and professionally - for what its worth !!!!!
That's why I love this scene. Really good write-up Geoff! I don't know if making SC2 related music really counts as what you say is needed, but I gave and give my best. More is to come
StarCraft 2, what up! You can't put us down cause we come up! :D
Great write up I think we are already halfway there like the numbers arent out for this last mlg so we might have gotten 200k already. Stadiums and ESPN I dont think will happen too fast but eventually why not im not doubting that it will happen just I wouldn't say it will happen next year but im all for it and id be happy going to an event like that and id love to see stog and games on ESPN
On November 22 2011 20:20 blAke139 wrote: That's why I love this scene. Really good write-up Geoff! I don't know if making SC2 related music really counts as what you say is needed, but I gave and give my best. More is to come
StarCraft 2, what up! You can't put us down cause we come up! :D
Ey you're the guy who made a couple songs on sc2 right? I love em,<3.
After reading the whole thing I must say, really inspiring and motivating. Here a just a few thought that came to my mind i wanted to share.
Right now I am living in a small city and going to college. I moved together with my girlfriend about a year ago and showed here, that I was really passionate about eSports, SC2 and so on. When we watched the first games together, she didnt understand a thing. I remember a nice evening where we sat on the balcony and i told her the whole SC Lore as good as I could remember it from sclegacy articels. Some months ago, it was her birthday and I got her a copy of SC2. Right now, we watch all big events together, she is a huge MKP fan and we do a prediction game for every GSL Season together which is really fun. It is so nice to have someone around, that you can share your hobby with!
Furthermore, I wasnt always happy with the social contacts I had the last years in college. I mean the guys I knew from college were nice and fun to hang out with but I was lacking something. Some months ago i stumbled upon a threat about a BarCraft in my town. Actually it was just a guy who just moved here asking if there were any other SC2 geeks around. Right now we have met several times at one of our places and had a great time together. I met a lot of people I have so much in common with. Not just passion for games but also like MTG and poker and so on. Some days ago I thought I will never have to be afraid again to got somewhere on this planet and feel lonely or dont find any friends. There will be some SC2 people around everywhere i can have fun with and eventually become friends with. So awesome of an idea!
I have been thinking about doing my own little SC2 webshow for months. I did some casting in the past and after reading this post I am really motivated once again to finnaly just get started. Seriously if you have an idea, just get started. This is actually the hardest part I think.
Last but not least: When I read the part about the flooding in Australia I literally almost started crying. It is really impressing and moving how far you can reach and what you can archive!
Incontrol keep going and everybody else take a good example and support what you love in life! Greetings!
It was nice to meet you in Anaheim earlier this year. When we shook hands I said, "Thank you for all you do for the community." I can't help but repeat those words again. Great write up and I hope to see this come to fruition one day.
Well said Geoff, and a great write-up! I hope a lot of people take this to heart, I know I'm going to be telling more people about esports! I think I'll start by retweeting this on twitter!
On November 22 2011 19:49 DarkSider wrote: I might be classed as a selfish bastard but I have only one question if somebody could clarify:
Why would I as a viewer want sc2 to become huge ?
All top players would say hell yeah i want bigger prize pool and more tourneys because i want to make bling-bling but for a viewer what sc2 becoming huge could mean ? Most of the viewers would follow blindly what their idols say but i do have this worry:
If sc2 gets too big then we have a big yummy cake from which many will try to get a bigger slice. If sc2 is broadcasted on tv we might get tournaments with exclusive broadcasting rights (idk how happy the tv station would be to sign a contract and have the stream be available online aswell), maybe we get payperview etc. For example after the GSL success which had a free stream we got AOL to follow which wasn't free anymore. (This is still a game and probably a large majority of players/viewers are too young to have a way to buy online tickets and whatnot to view those events. Or they just can't afford the 10-20$)
Also too big prizes might hurt aswell since some great players who could provide entertaintment of highest caliber to us would feel too big to train 8-12 hours a day when they have several hundread thousand $ in their bank account. I just assume many top players if they had the money they wouldn't waste their youth in front of a monitor - i might be wrong. And also with huge prizes you get thausands more Leenok wannabe who don't go to school hoping for 1 Jackpot in sc2 to change their life. And inevitably most of them will get no education and fail in sc2 too.
Don't get me wrong, I would love a couple more big offline tournaments but if sc2 changes from "home game" to an industry I wonder if the change would be good or bad.
Don't worry, you don't come out as an selfish bastard! To me you don't sound like a fan of the game and scene, but a guy who is pretty much content at the current position SC2 is in. I am a fan, and I will put my dream in contrast to your worries.
I would love if Starcraft was recoqnized beyond its own playerpool to be a respectable "sport/activity". Even to a degree that becomming a professional gamer is respectable choice of profession. I dream of watching starcraft on television and being able to talk about the game with complete strangers without being shunned. Lets be honest, it is not like gaming is anywhere close to be a hobby you go around and brags about. Gaming is in general still taboo.
My first reason for making SC2 bigger: Minimizes the taboo and makes the whole "gaming" idea more acceptable. Second reason, it will give me a lot more accessable content. Third reason, if starcraft hits TV, then it can have a unifieing role (which indeed would be great). At the moment TL seems to be the unifieing factor, highlighting all the major tournaments etc. Fourth reason, the whole industry would grow: Bigger audience -> more sponsors -> greater prizepools -> More professional gamers -> more content -> higher competition for viewers -> more quality shows -> Potentially reaching TV-quality -> Get an even wider audience -> making gaming acceptable -> repeat. There is most likely some flaws and holes in this argument, but this is me dreaming, thus only looking at the positive side of things.
Now, the bad side. Could SC2 be torn by interest groups and collapse on its own weight? If it had reached the point that it had become that huge, then all of my dreams had already come true. But would this be sustainable? If we compare it to soccer. Then soccer has reached a point where there is a unique professional league in every single country. There are huge international events. There are sooo many of them. There are even national teams! There is so much content that you would never be able to watch it all. There are more professional soccer players than you would ever know of. How come Starcraft cannot become as huge as soccer? Again this is me dreaming. But the analogy fits. You do only mention minor(though important) problems to an idea, but nothing that cannot be overcome with simple solutions.
If you were a true fan of the game and scene, then there is nothing better than sharing your passion with the rest of the world.
On November 22 2011 20:20 blAke139 wrote: That's why I love this scene. Really good write-up Geoff! I don't know if making SC2 related music really counts as what you say is needed, but I gave and give my best. More is to come
StarCraft 2, what up! You can't put us down cause we come up! :D
Ey you're the guy who made a couple songs on sc2 right? I love em,<3.
Yeah, that's me thanks mate! I'm totally gonna make a heart now: <3
Thank you iNcontrol for that. Reading through it makes me want to get up and do something for SC2 and its development. I did e-mail Monster after trying their drinks and found that I really enjoyed it. I mentioned in the mail that it was due to their sponsership of EG and esports. These companies do listen and as such I was sent a very nice reply and some "goodies" in the mail.
I'm currently writing a piece for a radio show called "Lex and Terry." They are represented in many states along the east coast of the US and some Northern areas. Hopefully they will be able to fit it into their show when I'm finished. I will upload the segment once it airs. I also plan on starting a Jacksonville/Gainesville Regional Barcraft 2012. http://www.lexandterry.com/
Thanks for the write up iNcontroL. I cheered for you at every pool game in Orlando.
I agree with everything you said there, got infinite ammounts of respect for you! Thank you for motivating me (and possibly more people) into helping SC2 grow more and more!
But yes - this is all I've thought about since getting into Starcraft 2 not that long ago. I want it to be a national craze. I want it on TV. I want to take a road trip to spectate (or compete in) a massive event.
I like intrigue's idea about a huge screen showing the entire map, or at least more of it than the typical FOV. That would make spectating a lot easier for people whose eyes aren't trained to glance at the minimap every 0.2 seconds.
HyperLimen - I think that when it happens, the community and its leaders will ensure it's done right. We don't want another CGS catastrophe. I'll cast my vote right now for day9 and wheat haha. If there's a pair of casters who can deliver SC2 in a way appropriate for actual players AND the masses... they're the ones. (Sorry Husky, but your reads of the game are too inaccurate for national TV.)
(Yes I realize there is this newfangled feature called quoting but I'm at work and typing this quick. Sue me.)
I think that the key for the sucess of Esports is the communicate. Express yourself about the feelings that rush your body when you see your favorite player battling a close game in the finals of some event, share to your friends that you are playing/seeing SC2: them - "Starcraft 2? What's is that??" You: "What?! Where have you been living dude?? You don't know what's Starcraft?? Let me explain it to you!"
Well...i think it's time to get a twitter account. ^^
I feel this being done incorrectly is a huge risk to the continuous grow of E-Sports as it can be a huge drain on current resources. You still have events like MLG in 'investment year' mode not making a profit (according to Sundance) I like your idea if have sportscenter or Baseball tonight-esque shows for SC2. I feel like having a half hour Starcraft Tonight show on ESPN 2 that goes over the weeks games and promotes streams and where to watch. Including having ESPN having the stream on their website.
More and more TV's have the functionality to watch livestream programming and I feel like ESPN just having a show like this might be the best way to promote Esports.
I think that the players are there, the casters are in place, the fans are certainly in place and even the sponsors are starting to see the light. I think the one thing that eSports is missing is the industry behind it. The longtail merch (what I am working on with my company), the shows (which are starting), the things that drive the market forward will be those things that offer positive income to be made and cycled back into the same market; a poster maker who then uses that money to sponsor tournaments.
The one thing that iNControl nailed and needs to be screamed to the heavens is that everyone plays a part in this. Chatting with players, sponsors and even towns is HUGE. It has far more effect that we realize.
On the character of Geoff: I have met him on several occasions. He replies to PMs honestly and timely and is a man of his word from my experiences. About 6 months ago when the New England SC2 League was almost completely unknown, he accepted coming on to do a guest cast of the finals. It was found he was not able to later on due to EG business, but PM'd me to apologize for any inconvenience. At MLG this past weekend, he even remembered the league and was interested in it's progress.
On the message: I enjoy the fervor, but find to myself that some restraint needs to be made in E-Sports. Over the past year we have seen a giant explosion. But like explosions in real life, if it is not guided or contained, like a bullet being fired, only destruction is left in it's wake. An over saturation of E-Sports if you would. Yet, if contained and guided, that same destructive force can be used to feed many to ensure continued growth. That is the reality of the business. DJWheat could tell you that he has seen the cycle happen many times in his 3,000 years on Earth; we reach the top of the bridge so fast that we don't realize the rest of it hasn't been built.
If E-Sports is to grasp onto longevity this time around, as a fan, YES, go out and absorb what you can and support how you can. Even if it is just watching a Day9 Daily on youtube once a week. But for the organizers, some structure needs to be put forward. Everybody and their brother wants to run tournaments, gain sponsorships, throw LANs, but if everyone is doing it the field becomes thinned out like a gallon of water on the floor, instead of in multiple cups. A prime example of some organization coming about can be found in the SoCal LAN scene. At first the organizers of all the LANs did not coordinate. Multiple LANs took place on the same days and there was no coherency between them or rhyme and reason. Now, there is a structure in place where all the organizers are working together and have even built a system to support themselves long term.
A side note: When asked who my favorite SC2 player is, a lot of people are confused when I say that iNControl is my #2(Complexity's Ryan is a good friend IRL, so he gets #1). I know that he isn't going to win any major tournaments. But it's his passion, his genuine excitement for SC2 and what it can become that draws me to him. The fact that he is out having actual business meetings with executives, working, talking with them to spread the concept of how E-Sports is legitimately here to stay... Well, that's a lot to sacrifice in terms of practice time where he could be improving his game, or helping his teammates to do the same.
I don't think this can happen. Everyone who cares about SC2 is watching SC2 already.
Have we got any sponsors that have nothing to do with gaming or its perceived lifestyle yet? I'm waiting for the bust when the advertisers realise throwing all this money around isn't increasing sales.
On November 22 2011 13:11 Mooster_Starcraft wrote: Good points inControl! Starcraft is so much more than just a game. May we all do these things, and keep SC2 forever!
until sc3 comes out of course ^^. I know that i won't be one of those hipster nerds who thinks sc3 is too mainstream and continue to want sc2 to stay forever (albeit that's a long way off). Anyways decent writeup but i still think it lacks specific direction although to be fair i don't think incontrol or anyone for that matter can explain with more specifics how we'll achieve all of these goals.
On November 22 2011 22:26 Soleron wrote: I don't think this can happen. Everyone who cares about SC2 is watching SC2 already.
Have we got any sponsors that have nothing to do with gaming or its perceived lifestyle yet? I'm waiting for the bust when the advertisers realise throwing all this money around isn't increasing sales.
I'm quite sure sponsorship helps those companies. TLAF and iRip are a good examples.
As for unrelated to gaming and the perceived lifestyle, does FXOpen count? Also if you are talking about ESPORTS in general, BW teams in Korea have big conglomerate sponsors, making it a lot more like established physical sports.
great writeup man, eventhough its a huge wall of text it was really nice to read
especially since i thought about why there is no E-Sports TV on normal cable TV over here.... i really think that something like that would benefit all sides (community, players etc etc) since more and more people would have an easy acces to it and E-Sports will be pushed out of the dark a little more into the public
how many people call guys like us nerds or stuff like that, but watchin football/soccer/basketball/baseball w/e other sport on TV or in a stadium? they are doing the exact same thing we do, but their sport is supported by the media and thats the huge step E-Sports has to in EU/US
the only difference in E-Sports and other sports is what u have to practice on... like in football u have to have very good health and increase ur physical strengh,speed, agility etcetc. in E-Sports u have to train ur mechanics aswell as decisionmaking based on informationinput which is limited by the level of attention u can build up etc which all can be trained. brains or brawns?
here is my take on it: foreigners most practise more, much more. If we want a larger sc2 the pros most go all the way like naniwa. He doesn't mess around with media and such, he knows what makes good practise, practise. If the foreigners were the best players than the sponsors would be more willing to invest into the scene as their home markets are western.
you gotta understand that if mlg or another tournament is on tv its going to cut the mlg site out of some money because YOU KNOW theyre going to show it in HD for free on tv.
This read is so inspiring.. I am currently thinking about quiting school (21 student) or try studying something else. But most of all I want to take part in esports, work at a live event, help setting up the stage, lift chairs, I dont care .... just something! iNcontroL sir, you are awesome!
I know that everyone and you above everyone has been waiting for you to finally get your big breakout performance/win. But THIS is why we're all still behind you. Even if that big win is a long distance off, you won't be losing any support along the way. That's for certain.
I agree and disagree with some concepts being talked about.
I agree with the fact that seeing growth would be amazing and definitely is possible. However, the quality of play to bring those kinds of masses must be high. A big part of the ridiculous games at MLG were mainly Koreans, Idra, Huk, or Naniwa. If these are going to be consistently done, on a regular basis, you will see less Koreans, or foreigners traveling to play due to other obligations, example GSL. Overall I feel like the level of play of North America would have to vastly improve to bring this kind of hype. Late game isn't nearly as exciting without koreans playing the VERY top of the foreign scene.
I do love the "we the people" section talking about being too critical and going out of your way to make pros feel bad, and also the many examples that were shown on how to personally get involved. I would love to see more of these types of examples because I am sure that there are 1000's of people who would be willing to donate parts of their time to help out with TL or other organizations. That many little contributions and a couple people organizing could help to make a large difference.
GL in 2012 Incontrol, wanna see you make a deep run in a big tournament soon!
Player agents. At this time we have players negotiation six figure salaries for themselves and of course that is the extreme case but it will become more and more common.. additionally it doesn't take a six figure salary to necessitate the need for an agent. We have none though. Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player. They don't know the first thing about our market. This is something someone could do and the first to do it would have all the business. Are you that person? Create.
I've seen a few posts, and I can't help but wonder if we should form some kind of network for gamer-lawyers. I've worked on quite a few contracts at the outset of business relationships, but I wouldn't offer myself up as a go-to for these kinds of contracts. I imagine most SC2 players who are lawyers have never even seen a professional sports contract, let alone an e-sports contract. I know I haven't.
I see the hurdle iNControl identities ("Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player," I don't either,) and raise the multi-jurisdictional problem as well. If player contracts are governed by California law, you'll need to have a California lawyer. As far as I know, there aren't any major pro teams based in Michigan; so while I'd love to help, there's just not a lot I can do. I can draft an agreement with a team based in Britain, and have it, by its terms, be governed by Michigan law, but what international team would sign that? I can even represent a Michigan gamer (as his "agent,") in negotiating a California contract, but if it ever comes to enforcement of that contract, I'm going to have to outsource the lawsuit to a lawyer in California. So who wants to hire an agent that can negotiate a contract, but can't enforce it? I know I wouldn't.
Maybe the starting point is to just get lawyers/agents who game talking. If we can network, and we can break the jurisdictional problems down with referrals, I'm sure we can monetize (promise). Anyone want to share LinkedIn info?
Great thread. One question I have is how would you go about going into some of this stuff? What would i major at college if I wanted to be the manager of a team, or what would I need to learn to become a player agent?
On November 22 2011 23:47 Mr_Advantage wrote: Great thread. One question I have is how would you go about going into some of this stuff? What would i major at college if I wanted to be the manager of a team, or what would I need to learn to become a player agent?
You probably want a law degree and some marketing background.
Dreamhack is stepping it up by having the eSport area in the Icehockey stadium next to Elmia so it is a step towards what you were saying. But yeah, nice write up!
I apologise if I repeat anything that anyone else has said... I did start to read all the comments but there are a fair few ^^ Also, if it makes no sense and you find it pure rubbish I also apologise; I did try and check through it.
Great post and well written, sums up some very good points and ideas. I especially like the points about simply talking to people about SC2; I myself have experienced how well this works in changing the way people think about eSports... but more on that later. This response will be long, as I feel the post deserves it.
So, I'd like to talk about myself for a moment (Never pass the chance right? ).
Throughout my life gaming has been there, be it Age of Empires, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft or of course Starcraft 2. During all of this time, almost 12 years of my life, I didn't share what I experienced; I didn't share what I was doing and how much I loved it. This changed after I started playing SC2 and was introduced to the Day[9] daily by a friend. From that exact moment, inspired by the 100th episode of the daily, I let myself embrace the passion I have for eSports. As a person, how do I feel? Better than I ever have done before.
You might think, what does this have to do with the post? What I am trying to say is that, if you are a gamer, a nerd, a geek... whatever... DON'T be scared to accept that. As soon as you accept it you will find that people don't care an awful lot about it... at this point, talk to them. Talk to them about what it is you do, show them what eSports is; you will be surprised at how many people have a genuine interest in the subject; they break the bonds of societies taboos and open their minds to ‘the other side’ so to speak. Personally, I recently started college with a class of people I have never met before. They had never encountered SC2 before, let alone any of the people involved with it. Within 8 weeks the class now know who Day[9] is, what Starcraft2 is, they have heard of MLG and they know that I love all of it. This has made me feel so much more comfortable in myself as a person and it has already given SC2 two more customers with a new interest in eSports. It's life changing really...
So, the post...haha. The point I am trying to make is that by sharing SC and eSports with friends, family, even people who you have met for the first time is so amazing. You are helping people understand something they previously would have shunned and kept away from, you are helping eSports grow. And for me at least, every time I speak freely about it I accept what I do even more. And now, whenever I see one more person watching a SC2 stream at college I can see eSports growing... and it happened by me simply talking to them.
So iNcontroL I most certainly agree with you that it’s the simple things that count.
So, you wanted ideas, I’ll try and make a few.
Fan connections:
Just too simply have more tournaments for fans to be encouraged and attended by big names (players, casters, members of the community). I know it will be hard due to practice etc and tight schedules but I feel it will do multitudes to the community in terms of making them feel more valued and closer to the people who they look up to. This would therefore help eSports grow because a more passionate fanbase is more likely to tweet, stream, link, post and talk about the things they love. Also, if the eSports community is absolutely amazing people will be more likely to want to get involved with it (attracting new people to eSports community).
A different style of show: (If there are any shows like this then we need more of them)
I don’t believe anyone can watch a SC video for the first time and claim to understand what exactly is going on; it’s impossible, they don’t know the units, tactics, races… anything. I think this is one reason that puts people off looking into the subject further.
Literally 3 hours ago at college my friend and I were watching the MLG finals between Naniwa and Leenock (don’t worry, it was a break ), another member of the class looked over and said “Every time I look over all I see are little men running at each other”. He looked over a few more times but never really settled to watch the stream with us. I think that this will be the case in most situations such as this.
My idea therefore is to have shows which don’t focus as much on the gameplay of Starcraft itself but to discuss what Starcraft actually is. So this could be the stories behind Starcraft lore, why are things happening, what does it mean. I know that once I watched the lord of the rings movie I couldn’t wait to buy Battle for Middle Earth… Gameplay will have to feature at some point in it of course but just not as much.
Allow me to clarify, I don’t mean we need a feature length Starcraft movie (although that would be absolutely awesome), nor do I mean we need some guys discussing the hardcore lore of the game. What we need is a light hearted show to help trigger people’s interest in the game, what content is in the show I don’t entirely know past what I have said. I suppose really this would be like the Newbie Tuesday’s on the Day[9] daily just with the addition of story time and pretty pictures It’s not great but it’s an idea.
Anyways, before I ramble even more I shall conclude. Great post, absolutely loved it and it was also a pleasure to read a lot of the responses from people. It’s so amazing to know the type of support eSports is gathering. More posts like this are needed though I feel and they need to be posted everywhere. They need to be shown where they wouldn’t normally get to- facebook would be a great place to drop a link and get people from a different scene reading it. Once people open their minds they are ready to understand.
eeh.. a bit pretentious isn't it? I don't see why we have to aim so high that we might miss when we have prime game right where we're at, let esports grow at a more natural rate it will be huge. I am perfectly content with slowing down this explosion a little bit.
Why are we acting as if it's now or never and the world ends tomorrow? Time is on our side and i would rather see esports reach the heights it deserves without bursting out into a giant mess of shit.
"C. Moderate. TL is often regarded as too harsh... I don't think it's harsh enough. Don't just close a thread mocking a player, delete it. That closed thread can still be found. Actively upvote and downvote on Reddit.. there is a lot of really dumb stuff that makes it far (sometimes) on reddit. As such, most of the community regards Reddit as a silly place where no real discussion is had. But that is home to a lot of people who WANT that place to be taken serious... be an active part of that! Jokes are great, poking fun at players and people is fine and good but taking it to extreme levels shouldn't be allowed to passively happen.. do something about it. I used TL and Reddit as examples but there are countless places where SC2 is discussed.. clean up your youtube comments, block trolls on twitter and ignore them... ban all the hate you can find in your stream chat. If we can clean up this community by 1% we have made the SC2 world a better place for everyone."
I find this part the most important. Reading in LR thread and Reddit (which is like .... no-word-could-be-used-to-describe) everyone was like if they're "passionate" they can boo players too, also "we" (I think they refer as the americans as those people were referencing examples in NFL) always boo. And also if don't like anything is a right then it's a right to boo. All went through my head was wtf is wrong with this community nowadays, Day9 used to be proud starcraft was the best community, I don't think starcraft 2 is... (he doesn't mention that often any more as a result i think). Also when I was 5, we (the student in the class) attended in a small football (soccer, for the americans) tournaments between classes. We did boo other team once and my teacher said immediately, "if you're passionate in cheering and supporting your team then cheer the hell out of them, not booing the other team or making fun of them when they do something wrong. We are here mostly for fun (or for what we love) and we want to be a better man, right?" Now let me say this, how the hell a 5-year-old could have a better manner than a teenager/young adults? As long the community doesn't grow up and shitting on other people, I don't see starcraft 2 get into professionalism. And that was my contributing oppinion.
"C. Moderate. TL is often regarded as too harsh... I don't think it's harsh enough. Don't just close a thread mocking a player, delete it. That closed thread can still be found. Actively upvote and downvote on Reddit.. there is a lot of really dumb stuff that makes it far (sometimes) on reddit. As such, most of the community regards Reddit as a silly place where no real discussion is had. But that is home to a lot of people who WANT that place to be taken serious... be an active part of that! Jokes are great, poking fun at players and people is fine and good but taking it to extreme levels shouldn't be allowed to passively happen.. do something about it. I used TL and Reddit as examples but there are countless places where SC2 is discussed.. clean up your youtube comments, block trolls on twitter and ignore them... ban all the hate you can find in your stream chat. If we can clean up this community by 1% we have made the SC2 world a better place for everyone."
I find this part the most important. Reading in LR thread and Reddit (which is like .... no-word-could-be-used-to-describe) everyone was like if they're "passionate" they can boo players too, also "we" (I think they refer as the americans as those people were referencing examples in NFL) always boo. And also if don't like anything is a right then it's a right to boo. All went through my head was wtf is wrong with this community nowadays, Day9 used to be proud starcraft was the best community, I don't think starcraft 2 is... (he doesn't mention that often any more as a result i think). Also when I was 5, we (the student in the class) attended in a small football (soccer, for the americans) tournaments between classes. We did boo other team once and my teacher said immediately, "if you're passionate in cheering and supporting your team then cheer the hell out of them, not booing the other team or making fun of them when they do something wrong. We are here mostly for fun (or for what we love) and we want to be a better man, right?" Now let me say this, how the hell a 5-year-old could have a better manner than a teenager/young adults? As long the community doesn't grow up and shitting on other people, I don't see starcraft 2 get into professionalism. And that was my contributing oppinion.
I think this is a good point. Cheering for your team is great but why waste time when you are cheering on booing the opponents? Of course there is always going to be disagreement in competition but it doesn't have to result in hate. And we have to remember that the clue is in the name eSports, 'Sports', there are always going to be passionate fans who feel like they have to boo those that they don't support. I don't think however that people shouldn't point out when someone is making a mistake or crossing the line; if people don't own up to what they did wrong then they never learn from it.
Player agents. At this time we have players negotiation six figure salaries for themselves and of course that is the extreme case but it will become more and more common.. additionally it doesn't take a six figure salary to necessitate the need for an agent. We have none though. Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player. They don't know the first thing about our market. This is something someone could do and the first to do it would have all the business. Are you that person? Create.
Exactly what I want to do if I am able to make it into the law school. If my plan works out I am gonna concentrate in contract law and then turn my attention to SC2 players after I graduate.
On November 22 2011 22:31 Mobius_1 wrote: I'm quite sure sponsorship helps those companies. TLAF and iRip are a good examples.
It's still products they expect gamers to buy. I mean like Korean Air does for BW.
As for unrelated to gaming and the perceived lifestyle, does FXOpen count?
"e-Sports aren’t our target market for advertising but a completely different business" - FXOBoss on FXOpen sponsoring FXO the team.
FXOpen are viewing esports as something they can make money in, not to sell their financial products.
Also if you are talking about ESPORTS in general, BW teams in Korea have big conglomerate sponsors, making it a lot more like established physical sports.
I don't mean BW. BW in Korea has got to the point Incontrol is talking about (stadiums full of people, public awareness, major unrelated sponsors) but I don't believe it's possible for SC2 ever, even in Korea.
All right, iNcontrol the Jerry McGuire of Esports... lol
Delivering content to the viewers has to be structured differently, perhaps the Koreans have it right with the Pro League.
There should be a team league with a daily cast and regular viewing hours, not "who is the best single player, this weekend with a 96 hour marathon of SC2!" once a month. The EG Masters Cup for example was excellent, but didn't have enough content to keep me drawn in. The teams should all rally together and put their resources into a team league that can be broadcast 3 times a week, rebroadcast for Europe/Korea/NA with interviews with players etc. IPL and NASL are doing a lot of things right in this regard, giving the people regularly scheduled content but...
The focus should be shifted away from players and put onto the teams.
Much like any sport, people have favorite players and the onus is on the teams to find ways to attract the best talent, but in the end it is the team that the viewers and consumers are paying to watch. Players come and go(slump, retire, join the army), but the organizations can have a limitless life and are able to work on growing their fan base even after key assets move on. This also supports the idea that the best and brightest players will always be the ones at the keyboard rather than older, less skilled players who only are where they are at because of their public notoriety. The players that have no results or are not capable of results should move on, perhaps into broadcasting(like retired NFLers), journalism or whatever. Just get away from the keyboard and let the talented players do their thing. Boxer is one example, he couldn't make it in the big leagues of Broodwar so he started his own farm team in the farm team league and him being able to compete hurts the image of the quality of the entire SC2 scene. He should have stuck to coaching and managing his new team. (Big Boxer fan btw)
Blizzard still has licensing rights so major leaps forward cannot occur without their consent and participation. And each and every expansion to the game is going to cause problems and could potentially ruin the whole scene altogether, who knows. Either way big sponsors will see this as a risk.
The only thing that I don't fully agree with is the live performance before a match. I think there is probably too much variance in the musical tastes in the West.
Other than that, this seems like something I could support.
you gotta understand that if mlg or another tournament is on tv its going to cut the mlg site out of some money because YOU KNOW theyre going to show it in HD for free on tv.
It doesn't work that way. Whatever cable station or network picked it up would have to pay MLG for the rights to broadcast it's content. Money it made from this would far outpace what it currently makes from online ad rev share. In addition, the license fee would need to be paid for each market. MLG would likely only be broadcast in the US so there is a significant international audience that would still view the stream online. And if MLG did sell broadcast rights in multiple national markets they would be making even more money.
Most brand sponsors would jump at the ability to pay more to get an integrated sponsorship including television ads. MLG would be able to charge more simply for sponsors to have banners at the event since they would show in the background during the broadcast.
Television only makes the event more valuable to MLG, not less.
Some very good conversation in this thread.. especially from those that are 'realist' and realize that there are so many other things that need to be put in place before we get to a point of 32K in a stadium. I hate to be negative here.. because I have been pushing to grow eSports for 10+ years... but we are years away from a sustainable model in which we fill 32k in a stadium. Geoff has very good points.... but most of what he says is a pep rally.
Someone made the point that we need to organize SC2 more.. and they could not be more right.. but above that, we need to remember.. SC2 is not the only game that is considered an esport.. it is not even the most watched. SC2 does however have the hardest working and most involved community and that is exactly why SC2 can lead the pack. Not the players, not the MLG's or NASL's.. but the community.
For me at least SC2 and eSports is still at the point where when I try to talk to people about it, it's dismissed pretty hard. Could be because of my age or profession or whatever, but I still don't think that eSports has busted into the 25+ age demographic. I find that people my age who still are into video games are the ones that always have been into video games, and only the most hardcore of those are into videos games as a competition....an even smaller subset of this group would spectate.
So here's my proposal:
You guys have to talk it up on behalf of me and those like me EVEN MORE, so that when this generation gets into money, that it will continue to grow. Imagine how big this will be once Bob Costas is interviewing Leenock on his 30th birthday and there's a new wave of 15 year olds smashing through the old guard.
This post makes so much sense.. Its just one component that will help truly build esports, but it's an important one. TV will not come for esports on a sustainable level until things like whats written here are put into place.
On November 23 2011 00:30 Rabbet wrote: All right, iNcontrol the Jerry McGuire of Esports... lol
Delivering content to the viewers has to be structured differently, perhaps the Koreans have it right with the Pro League.
There should be a team league with a daily cast and regular viewing hours, not "who is the best single player, this weekend with a 96 hour marathon of SC2!" once a month. The EG Masters Cup for example was excellent, but didn't have enough content to keep me drawn in. The teams should all rally together and put their resources into a team league that can be broadcast 3 times a week, rebroadcast for Europe/Korea/NA with interviews with players etc. IPL and NASL are doing a lot of things right in this regard, giving the people regularly scheduled content but...
The focus should be shifted away from players and put onto the teams.
Much like any sport, people have favorite players and the onus is on the teams to find ways to attract the best talent, but in the end it is the team that the viewers and consumers are paying to watch. Players come and go(slump, retire, join the army), but the organizations can have a limitless life and are able to work on growing their fan base even after key assets move on. This also supports the idea that the best and brightest players will always be the ones at the keyboard rather than older, less skilled players who only are where they are at because of their public notoriety. The players that have no results or are not capable of results should move on, perhaps into broadcasting(like retired NFLers), journalism or whatever. Just get away from the keyboard and let the talented players do their thing. Boxer is one example, he couldn't make it in the big leagues of Broodwar so he started his own farm team in the farm team league and him being able to compete hurts the image of the quality of the entire SC2 scene. He should have stuck to coaching and managing his new team. (Big Boxer fan btw)
Blizzard still has licensing rights so major leaps forward cannot occur without their consent and participation. And each and every expansion to the game is going to cause problems and could potentially ruin the whole scene altogether, who knows. Either way big sponsors will see this as a risk.
i have been a long time listener of shows like State Of The Game and Inside the game and your continued apearence on those shows has truly increased my love for this game
your continued dedication and perserverance for doing everything you can for this community is truly awe imspiring it completely breaks my mind that there are so many people who give you so much hate for your slightly lackluster results
you are a PILLAR of this community, there are very few people i would call a PILLAR but you are indeed a PILLAR you have truly inspired me to give my 100% to helping this community and i pray i can help it even a tenth of what youve done, becuase even that much is a giant contribution
you are an amazing man and i cant believe how moved i have been by your post here, i have been moved in ways i have never been moved before and i am not ashamed to say i am on the verge of tears after reading such a well thought and amazing post, i can feel your heart bleeding through your words and know you truly and deeply care about this community
i wish the new year brings us even close to your dreams for they are my dreams too, and im sure shared by many in this community
i wish the new year brings you success in and out of the game and i wish you get acknowledgement for all the amazing things you have done
I was debating whether or not to mention this in my first post but reading through csn_JohnClark's comment made me realise that it is on topic. I agree that more has to be done to before TV is a possibility, it isn't just a case of putting SC in peoples faces; we need to change a mindset of society as a whole. I think if somebody outside of the eSports community were to watch gaming videos or listen to how we describe eSports then they would just think 'nerd'* and leave it as that. We have to first, make people aware of eSports, what it is, why it's good and why it deserves to be recognised by everybody as a real thing. Once people are comfortable with this we can move onto things such as TV. I still stand by the point of always trying to talk about it if the moment arises, this will only help people come to terms with eSports since they will be hearing about it.
* I say this as a bad thing. I do not believe that being a nerd is bad; I know what it is we do and I agree with it, to me being a nerd is the best thing in the world. But to a lot of people being a nerd is to be a person who 'doesn't have a life' because their hobby isn't perceived to be socially acceptable. It is that problem that we need to change before people will open their minds to accepting eSports fully.
I've never been the sort of fan who would go to such lengths as to actively spread and share my experience of sc2 and eSports. This article has just motivated me to change that about myself.
I'm going to DH this weekend and I intend to start there.
I wonder if we can look to other non-mainstream games such as Magic: The Gathering and understand how they have evolved over the years. Also there seems to be a lot of social stereotypes that we as gamers need to overcome before begin accepted (at least in the US).
I think there will be a lot of self-selection that occurs in the near future. There are tons of tournaments and more streamers and casters every day. Those who do a good job will be noticed. Those who are entertaining will be noticed. Those that are not will fall by the wayside. I think that as a community we have the responsibility to recognize all organizations, players, streamers, casters etc. that do a good job. We need to support them if we like what they stand for and where they are going. This is what will help move SC2 forward. We need to check out the new stuff and if we like it, promote it and help it improve. If we don't like it, then leave it alone. Allow evolution to take its course, and the community will select the best fit among us to move on and grow the scene.
Incontrol your dreams aren't that far off, its only a matter of time. Your first section "THE DREAMER" part A...I did that, that was literally a excerpt from my life on Saturday, and Sunday night. I was begging my parents, scrubbing change and money anywhere, doing whatever I can in order to get to Providence. Drove 5 hours, in ungodly traffic from Long Island to Providence, in the middle of the night alone on Friday night just to go to this giant SC2 nerd event and meet my favorite players and watch them give absurdly awesome performances.
I could feel myself in the car busting with anticipation to see you and IdrA, Nestea, MVP, MKP, Tyler, Tastosis and all of the awesome players and casters that came out for this world class event. I got the same rush as I do when I go to Yankee games, YANKEE GAMES! (And I am quite the baseball fan.)
That ESPN style, I felt that when, and correct if I am wrong, when DJWheat announced some statistics of IdrA plays and how he has done with sets. I didn't catch the whole thing but all I remember is feeling like "hey that adds legitimacy, its like a real sporting on TV."
I had cousins that DO NOT play Starcraft but only have enjoyed it purely from a spectators view, walk into the convention center and say "This makes me want to play, this is awesome." They played the game later that night and now plan on buying the game for themselves.
I give it a short few months before we start hearing more plans and news on the things you've suggested here. The intense statistic-like announcements and coverage, the Pre Game and Post Game shows. Look how far we've come. ESPN interest, Youtube grabbing this thing by the horns, Redbull's LAN event, IEM, Reddit demanding and providing for their favorite player to come down and give themselves and the player what they want. The time to play, and a chance to see.
Finally, Incontrol I was privileged with the chance to talk to you at MLG, might not remember me though. I can tell you were bummed about you loss (too be honest I was embarrassed, I thought your game was later on in the night didn't know you got knocked out =/). I told you "well at least you made someone's day" when you signed my shirt. I was wrong, you, EG, TL, all the Koreans, MLG's staff, Sundance, the casters....this event....made my life. Thanks for all the work you and everyone in this awesome community has done to make this a possibility and see to it that this phenom we have on our hands never stops growing.
If you were just half as passionate in your training like you are when talking about esports or doing PR you would be an hell of a player. I still don't get why you aren't a manager or something like that instead, you have all the skills you need and it's not something for everyone!
I particularly agree with the point B. Personally I convinced a friend of mine to watch MLG because Naniwa was playing the Global Invitational and I wanted to show him that foreigners are able to compete with the allmighty koreans. Initially he didn't understand a lot but after some explanations of mine I noticed that he enjoyed the match like myself! I guess the trick isn't being pedantic with people who aren't involved in our hobby, but just present it like it's... well what it is: something funny but at the same time professional. Otherwise we would just sound like obsessed weirdos.
On the contrary I don't like a lot the social media part. While I realise it's useful to be widespread I don't like when casters (a random Day9, anyone?) keep reminding us what their twitter is and where we can follow them every two seconds. I mean, we are not stupid. If we are interested in something we are able to make our researches... Also the casters' frenzy is something only we foreigners have, and at the end I think it's deleterious. People should care about the important things like the players or the games, more than anything.
Instead, a lot of people keep their focus on so called personalities, locations and such instead of doing like the BW guys, who put their emphasys in the players more than anything. I fear that for the sake of being well known some people are trying to make sc2 more a show than an actual... dunno, 'discipline'? If it will become like that I'm afraid it won't last like Brood War. But time will tell if we will come more and more in a phase when the majority of the bad players will be naturally filtered, at the current moment we can't know.
In any case youtube/twitter/blog/personal site/family album/vlog/photos of my hamster/etc don't give me that much of a vibe: after all whatever is written on it is explicitly produced for a public and will be, most of the times, meaningless embellishments. Maybe it's just a quirk of mine, don't know if it's the same for anyone else.
At last, an interesting dilemma: it's well known that the more something is mainstream, the more its userbase widens and becomes retarded and misinformed. What would TL become, for heaven's sake? ...would YOU be ready?
On November 22 2011 13:16 HyperLimen wrote: Great post.
I don't understand how TV coverage is viewed as such a desirable achievement, though. The image I get in my mind of some network broadcasting SC2 is that of some figurehead with no knowledge or passion reading off of a teleprompter with no enthusiasm whatsoever. If they get someone like day9 or wheat to do it that is a different story.
#1 the premise that they would get people who know nothing about the game to do commentary is foolish. TV networks have standards, and nobody at all would watch that, therefore it would make no money and they could see that well before #2 I don't understand why half of the gaming community is scared about a jump to TV. They aren't saying TV will be the only method of delivery, it would be one method, and for things like barcrafts and your every day lounging and watching it would be far more convenient.
I tend to sit at my computer and play SC2 or some other game and it's not possible for me to watch a stream at the same time. I'd love to be able to do that (I mean hell why buy a big ass TV if you can't watch your favorite form of entertainment on it?) I understand hooking the computer up to a TV works okay, but it's obviously not the pinnacle of entertainment, all you have to do is watch ESPN for an hour or 2 to realize that is what we should be shooting for. I would absolutely love a convenient place to check all the scores instead of digging through LR Threads and going to various websites (who goes to NFL.com to look for NFL scores? or any other sport for that matter)
I absolutely love this post because TV is a great way to bring Starcraft to the masses. Not everyone is going to like it, but that's okay, not everyone likes Soccer (especially here in america) but that doesn't mean they don't show it. It's a numbers game, and while 200k for a National Championship is great, I think we can do better and TV gives us that opportunity
Plus on a technical note, some people's internet sucks and streaming high quality isn't possible, TV requires much less to get the same quality.
Thanks for the great topic Geoff (too many upper and lowercases couldn't remember your gamer tag),
Also if you are talking about ESPORTS in general, BW teams in Korea have big conglomerate sponsors, making it a lot more like established physical sports.
I don't mean BW. BW in Korea has got to the point Incontrol is talking about (stadiums full of people, public awareness, major unrelated sponsors) but I don't believe it's possible for SC2 ever, even in Korea.
So I was looking through some sponsors for Korean teams. Do companies like Mom's Touch Chicken and Burger, Hedgren, LUNATI fulfil your criteria? Because their businesses are just targeted towards "people", not specifically "gamers". Plus there are plenty of huge companies sponsoring tournaments, teams and players that you can certainly argue are aimed at gamers (but no less than those BW-team-conglomerate-sponsors are), like Coca-Cola (IM), Pepsi (GSL), LG (GSL), Sony Ericsson (TLO), among others.
If these don't fulfil your criteria, it's akin to saying that Standard Chartered shouldn't sponsor Liverpool because it's not helping their business in the USA. I mean, everyone who cares about football is already watching football, right?
But back to your original point, I don't see what is wrong with sponsors targeting young, technical consumers who like games who might want a good computer with sweet peripherals and gadgets and like to shop online. I think you are being overly cynical when you stated "throwing all this money around isn't increasing sales." Social media is a very, very effective advertising medium and the ESPORTS community is very, very good at leveraging that medium to help sponsors' investments go a long way.
@MavivaM Although I think that you are right in some ways, I don't think it's a bad thing to grow (I know you didn't say it directly, I'm just referring to the last point you made). Football for example (or Soccer in America) is huge across the world, there are millions of idiots who watch it, but the sport is still strong, as is the culture that surrounds it. There is and will always be people who spoil it for everyone else, it will take getting used to if there is an influx of them but, with the influx of those people there will be even more people who are on the same page as most of us here. So, if this happens, the community as a whole will have to combat the 'retards' by showing them the way to behave and communicate.
Awesome post iNcontrol! I think one of the reasons Starcraft 2 has been such a successful esport is because of the players passion for their game as well as their intellect. As an ex halo 2/3 pro, I can attest that Starcraft players and fans have WAY more passion for their game.
Also, what makes Starcraft so intriguing for me is the story lines. I think emphasizing the story lines of players (like you mentioned with WhiteRa) will be the best way to capture the interest of people who are not yet fans of esports.
Player agents. At this time we have players negotiation six figure salaries for themselves and of course that is the extreme case but it will become more and more common.. additionally it doesn't take a six figure salary to necessitate the need for an agent. We have none though. Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player. They don't know the first thing about our market. This is something someone could do and the first to do it would have all the business. Are you that person? Create.
I've seen a few posts, and I can't help but wonder if we should form some kind of network for gamer-lawyers. I've worked on quite a few contracts at the outset of business relationships, but I wouldn't offer myself up as a go-to for these kinds of contracts. I imagine most SC2 players who are lawyers have never even seen a professional sports contract, let alone an e-sports contract. I know I haven't.
I see the hurdle iNControl identities ("Sports agents don't understand how to monetize a SC2 player," I don't either,) and raise the multi-jurisdictional problem as well. If player contracts are governed by California law, you'll need to have a California lawyer. As far as I know, there aren't any major pro teams based in Michigan; so while I'd love to help, there's just not a lot I can do. I can draft an agreement with a team based in Britain, and have it, by its terms, be governed by Michigan law, but what international team would sign that? I can even represent a Michigan gamer (as his "agent,") in negotiating a California contract, but if it ever comes to enforcement of that contract, I'm going to have to outsource the lawsuit to a lawyer in California. So who wants to hire an agent that can negotiate a contract, but can't enforce it? I know I wouldn't.
Maybe the starting point is to just get lawyers/agents who game talking. If we can network, and we can break the jurisdictional problems down with referrals, I'm sure we can monetize (promise). Anyone want to share LinkedIn info?
As a lawyer, and starter of the SC2 LinkedIn Group (found here: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=4157219&trk=anet_ug_hm), I heartily approve of this idea. I've considered what it would require to establish an agency for players and I think it is a necessary step.
I have a background in labor economics (I did my master's thesis on unions) but I think the first step is data. I thought about this at Providence actually, and my first thought was to take the next few months (assuming most player contracts end in December, it is too late, I think, to start it for 2012) to gather the necessary salary, endorsements, etc. data. Information asymmetry is an issue for any player that wants to negotiate a superior contract, without that data. I follow sports fervently and looking to Boras and other top agents as an example, they can negotiate best for their clients when they are able to crunch the numbers, figure out the average, top-5, etc. salaries and so on.
In any case, if any of the other lawyers are interested, please PM me and we can all get started working on this.
Awesome blog post Incontrol! I've been doing everything I can as an up and coming Starcraft II caster to not only improve my own skills and promote myself but also promote the thing I love the game itslef. When I first came to college I was able to show my quadmates the beauty of starcraft BW I was able to get 7 out of the 8 people who lived there to play the game. With Starcraft II I made sure to go out of my way to talk with anyone and everyone about the game itself, about the community, and about my passion for eSports.
I hope everyone will do everything they can to spread as much information as possible!
For the e-mail thing, I think state of the game already mentionned this many months back, and I've done it. I had emailed Asus, kingston, monster(they sent me stickers!), sony erricson, and a ton of others.
I've spread my love of E-Sports, but this makes me realize I can do it even better. SC2 Used to be a thing for me and my friend, back in the beta- no one else. This is in stark contrast to the barcraft we just had for Orlando, where even my girlfriend tagged along, three friends that didn't even PLAY starcraft, and meeting the same regular montreal crew from other events. (LAN ETS, Sc2QC! Woot!) People that would no longer be playing sc2 without me are still doing it because I try to motivate them and help them improve or just help them enjoy the game. One of my friends is a silver player with no intention of really getting better. We still have a lot of fun, because we play team games and I keep him alive while he does something silly like void rays. I believe for this reason sc2 can be made really accessible. Sure, not everyone will be a masters-level practice partner, but everyone can enjoy it their own way. Thanks Incontrol, I'll do mah best.
Thanx for this write up InControl, I agree fully. After this weekends MLG and the completely overblown situation with Naniwa overshadowing his actual effort I especially like the part about trying to at least be civil in our feedback, be it good or bad.
well said. Theres a difference between people around you knowing theres this community and that its growing explosively and actually showing them yourselves. A great call to action at the perfect time. Lets do this.
On November 23 2011 01:40 Whitewing wrote: Very well written, I would have preferred that the title be "A Modest Proposal" though, as it would have made my entire week.
That said, excellently done, I agree :D
"A Modest Destiny" would have been better! ..best webcomic of my youth.
I personally think that local promotes/internet cafe's need to be encouraged to create more local tourneys, online or lans -(mostly Lans). One of the main reasons why SC is such a popular game, is because your average gamer can share in the glory (aka the scene is so tight). I feel like i'm part of the pro scene when I ladder, go to Barcraft, watch MLG and participate in a tourney myself. But out of all of the SC2 related events, I get most stoked for local lans. I think that local lans are the best ingredient for growth because: A) they create community - brining the nerds together to create relationships and respect, instead of having greasy nerds sitting alone in their dark room, unattached, and transforming themselves into racist, sexist pigs like Destiny or CombatEX (yeah, I said it). B) they create player growth and experience - weather you win or lose at a tourney, you learn a lot. And you feel a need to get better! You feel the need to go home and practice so that you can either win again or go back and prove that you've got what it takes. C) Local tourneys make SC2 just like any other sport. Kids who play any traditional sport are in a local league where they get to play with the people in their town. Why don't we have this for SC2 - or at least, why aren't we thinking to have this?! Why can't a kid tell his mom, "No mom, I don't want to do gymnastics (or whatever) this year, I wana play in the SC2 league." ?!?! Anyways, those are some of my thoughts. I love that INcontrol made this post. IMO he is a much better promoter for SC2 than he is a player. Keep up the good work! There is a future for you even if you suck at the game!!
I loved the blog and agree so much. Not many fans know they are the true voice of esports and the only way it can grow in regards to funding etc.
I would like to address just a section of the writing Geoff - player agents. It would be wonderful and to be honest, it's a big thing to what we need in order to legitimize esports to the world. However, speaking from true experience; I have personally had discussions with current MLB, NFL, NHL agents looking to see if they would be interested in representing players in esports. Each and every single one has said that it looks to be an amazing opportunity for companies, teams, and players. But what they recognized is the lack of structure, MLG, IPL, NASL, IEM, all have competing structures, most teams aren't structured competently. There is no legal system really set up.
In these agents opinions, we have some growing up to do. Players and teams in a central organization, establishing tournament standards, sponsors need to shell out more money in general to esports, revenue structures need to be built so that teams aren't 100% sponsor money, you can see what I'm saying.
These agents would have to establish new divisions of their companies, make their own connections to sponsors, hire esports educated people, make connections in a brand new industry, this is all a large capital investment....for anyone. But if their deal with a player is they get 10 percent of salary and in exchange they negotiate with teams and take care players other issues, then they sure as heck will be hoping players make more than 30K a year.
So that buildup in esports is what needs to occur, player agents are the cherry on top
On November 23 2011 01:35 Nozzbozz wrote: @MavivaM Although I think that you are right in some ways, I don't think it's a bad thing to grow (I know you didn't say it directly, I'm just referring to the last point you made). Football for example (or Soccer in America) is huge across the world, there are millions of idiots who watch it, but the sport is still strong, as is the culture that surrounds it. There is and will always be people who spoil it for everyone else, it will take getting used to if there is an influx of them but, with the influx of those people there will be even more people who are on the same page as most of us here. So, if this happens, the community as a whole will have to combat the 'retards' by showing them the way to behave and communicate.
Obviously my last sentence was just a sort of joke, but I get your point. I'd like to be picky about your football example and say that fucking football it's the same sport where coaches teach their players to be unsportsmanlike just to get advantage of referee's mistakes, where team managers corrupt people just in order to fix games and with the most racist public in the whole world. And the horrible thing is that most of the people accept it this way, just look at how people in the pubs never say "whoa Messi fell down on purpose such a bad attitude it's bad for sportmanship!". Sigh.
It would be interesting to understand if this attitude is a direct consequence of how mainstream football is, if ">more public>more money>more tricks>less shame" and then look at Savior in BW or the Ipl in Philippines.
It's just a random thought, however. Probably popularity doesn't mean anything, at least at this level. I just hope that in the future it will come down to tournaments with professional players, instead of a supposedly gosu match between famous players who still haven't done anything significant, casted by the awesome commentator whose job is making witty remarks all the time for his crazy fanbase while a rude host insults random people just to create more drama.
Again, time will tell. I don't want to create alarmism, it's just my random thoughts. At the current moment I like what I get except for some minor bullshits, let's see if it will continue in this direction.
I still think SC2 is in a bit of a bubble that will eventually burst. Just look at all the players not getting payed for their tournament wins, see players breaking their contracts without any repercussions...I don't know, I hope I'm wrong, but I expect eventually there's going to be a big crash if the scene doesn't get some things straight.
On November 23 2011 02:10 ComebackKid wrote: I love that INcontrol made this post. IMO he is a much better promoter for SC2 than he is a player. Keep up the good work! There is a future for you even if you suck at the game!!
EDIT: I wanted my last comment to seem sarcastic, but now that I read it, it just seems mean. Much love for INcontrol, promoter and player.
On November 23 2011 02:27 Odoakar wrote: I still think SC2 is in a bit of a bubble that will eventually burst. Just look at all the players not getting payed for their tournament wins, see players breaking their contracts without any repercussions...I don't know, I hope I'm wrong, but I expect eventually there's going to be a big crash if the scene doesn't get some things straight.
the big events make there payout, but from what ive heard about it the reason it takes so long is becuase theres not that much money being circulated in the community but i think that as it becomes bigger the tournaments will be able to more and more effeciently make sure they ahve taht cash on hand to get the payments out
as for the contract breaking, i dont think weve seen that many people break contracts, only one i know of is Stephano and the only cure that right now (until these teams become big enough to hire the lawyers to enforce them) is to (and i suppose this somewhat goes against some of incontrols points) is to seriously BASH these players, dont tune in to there stream, let them know that you think that breaking the contract is a terrible deed
but i dont think this bubble is in any danger at all of bursting especialy with the BW scene getting prepared to begin tranistioning over and foriengers starting to stand neck and neck with koreans, and not jsut the monster foreigners but more and more foriengers are jsut getting the experience to take games off the koreans
And I don't have much to add, except that I want this to come true. Not only for the US, but I want that to come true for Europe as well, and in the future that every country gets an e-sports center. This is possible, and this will happen.
Great write up. I think that SC2 eSports has more potential to grow than any other marketable activity on Earth. It has a massive community of gamers behind it, a huge majority of whom are well versed with the internet, the information highway. Can you think of any other sport, product, event, anything that could possibly grow faster than we can grow Starcraft 2. The fans are one of the most important parts, some may argue THE most important part.
I have two friends I converted as well, we stay up and watch gsl finals together. They are both jocks, one of them is a former division 1 athlete and the other is a pro baseball player.
InControl has used Starcraft as an example to politely explain what is required of each citizen for a free market representative democratic system to work.
Think about the world you want to live in. Find other people who share that vision. Watch listen and learn from those who also want to live in that world and share with these people. Support these people. Pay attention to the obstacles to your vision. Do not support the behaviors, systems, institutions and individuals that create these obstacles.
Dont worry about being too small to make a difference. You are not alone.
Gandhi said 'whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it'
Good post. I definitely find it annoying when the community goes overboard with trash talking players. In some cases its deserved, such as stream cheaters and players who behave poorly on stage, but in a lot of other cases it's completely unwarranted. This especially applies to a lot of things I hear about incontrol, who has done a lot for esports and doesn't get enough credit simply because of poor performances at a few MLG tournaments.
By the way, I look forward to the day I can get your brother to an MLG and maybe even get you two to play against each other in the open bracket!
I'm hoping you get a chance to play here in France eventually, you know if we ever have a LAN worth coming too other than ESWC. I'd definitely come say hi. Good luck in the future, and just so you know I also enjoy your work on SOTG and in general as a player and personality you are one of my favorites. Good luck in 2012 and beyond and keep strong win or lose!!
I agree with the sentiment. But some of this really is just a dream. At this point, there is zero reason to think we're not in an eSports bubble. A year of growth is awesome, but we have no metrics to figure out where these people are coming from. Is MLG and the like reaching new players? Is it reaching new people who have never played? At what point will we reach full saturation? Right now, the companies that put on big tournaments are NOT making big money. They're investing heavily in the hopes that the scene continues to grow and eventually becomes highly lucrative. What we've seen in the past year is amazing to us because we've never seen anything like it before. But we've gone from a 2 out of 10 to about a 4 out of 10, we're still little, and we have a long road ahead until we can say that eSports are here to stay and nothing will be able to stop us.
The stadium thing is interesting because which day would people be most interested in? The finals and semi finals of a huge tournament could be only 10 - 12 games and like 1 - 2 hours of actual gameplay at most and could involve players that people don't care as much about.
When I read the "the dreamer" I immediatly thought iNcontrol was practicing with Nal_Ra LOLOLOL nice write up man. Who knows I may start practicing and doing some "freelance" stuff for the community. I already stream every once in a while and encourage my friends on fb to follow!
INcontrol, it's people like you that make me love eSports even more. Thank you so much for all you do. As a broke college student, I just make it a point to tell everyone I know that isn't aware about eSports how much I love it and enjoy it. Definitely going to try and contribute more in the future, especially after reading this. (:
i'd like to think that i do a lot of these things you mentioned already. I do however, really appreciate that you took the time to explain how important it actually is to email and contact sponsors to tell them you love that they're a part of this. This is something you occasionally brought up on SOTG, but i always figured it was mostly just for your sponsors sake.
To know that this actually makes a difference means i will start actively doing this whenever sponsors broaden their reach and whenever new ones pop up. I already have huge respect for razer and how much they care about gamers and try and buy their stuff whenever i can.
As far as just difference of opinion. I think that streaming and the internet will grow with sc2 and that television will eventually die out... that will be awhile, but i think starcraft highlights one of those things that can only meet it's full potential online. I hope they can coexist and espn will bring in more fans, and although i'm just as optimistic, i believe that it can reach an incredible amount online.
Thanks a lot for these thoughts. Really appreciate it, it's been informative and i think it's great that you aren't only attempting to mass our community but also keep it as great as it is and striving for something even better. Don't ever leave sc and join some other stupid cause like saving puppies or i will cry. thank you
^_^ Nice read, iNcontroL! I am excited to see what we can accomplish in 2012. I am hoping the "big" plans we have this year will look dwarfed compared to what the community actually achieves this time next year.
Hey incontrol, just to let you know you've lit a fire in reddit everyone is offering help to players, organizations, upcoming individuals with lessons/website design/website hosting for free. Good job man.
Seriously, follow your favorite player on twitter. Congratulate them on recent wins and things of the like. Don't be like the majority of the people who follow players and then thats it. Interact with them, thats why they are there. They really appreciate it.
On November 23 2011 06:00 elvideo wrote: What about alternative Starcraft communities Kennigit was talking about during his interviews. I recently visited one and it was nothing but haters spamming reddit memes. Shouldn't we completely blacklist that sort of behavior, especially since the mods seemed to be encouraging all the hate I believe these alternative Starcraft communities are truly holding back ESPORTS and contribute nothing back (they even claim reddit images to be their own. wtf?)
The best thing we can do is just to ignore them and pretend they don't exist. The kids on these sites will grow up eventually and either transition to a more mature forum like le Reddit or just go away completely.
Great post. The only thing that it is keeping the growth to go even faster is the haters, there's people who hate on absolutely anything, who will absolutely flame the living hell out of a new caster or player or tournament (I still remember the start of the NASL, dear god people complained big time). None in the community wants to be seen as a spoilered brat, am I right or am I right?
by the way, isn't Dreamhack's final going to be held in a hockey stadium or something similar?
On November 23 2011 06:18 Ko1tz wrote: Great post. The only thing that it is keeping the growth to go even faster is the haters, there's people who hate on absolutely anything, who will absolutely flame the living hell out of a new caster or player or tournament (I still remember the start of the NASL, dear god people complained big time).
Yeah, how DARE they to criticise a tournament that was far from perfect!
On November 23 2011 06:18 Ko1tz wrote: Great post. The only thing that it is keeping the growth to go even faster is the haters, there's people who hate on absolutely anything, who will absolutely flame the living hell out of a new caster or player or tournament (I still remember the start of the NASL, dear god people complained big time). None in the community wants to be seen as a spoilered brat, am I right or am I right?
by the way, isn't Dreamhack's final going to be held in a hockey stadium or something similar?
its up to the community to grow despite the haters and to show that they are a minority and that the majority are all awesome
and yes the dreamhack finals is in a hockey stadium
On November 23 2011 06:00 elvideo wrote: What about alternative Starcraft communities Kennigit was talking about during his interviews. I recently visited one and it was nothing but haters spamming reddit memes. Shouldn't we completely blacklist that sort of behavior, especially since the mods seemed to be encouraging all the hate I believe these alternative Starcraft communities are truly holding back ESPORTS and contribute nothing back (they even claim reddit images to be their own. wtf?)
The best thing we can do is just to ignore them and pretend they don't exist. The kids on these sites will grow up eventually and either transition to a more mature forum like le Reddit or just go away completely.
Stop it. Both of you.
Anyway,
True passion lies within the recesses of alternative communities.
This is slightly off-topic, but InControl mentioned 200k+ watching MLG finals. In Sundance's interview he said he was hoping for 300k viewers for MLG Providence or else he'd be disappointed. I *think* he meant for the whole tournament, he wanted 300k independent people to tune in at some point throughout the whole tournament.
My question is:
Has anyone has seen MLG's stats for viewership at MLG Providence and did MLG hit their targets for viewership, subscriptions, etc(for what was an EPIC tournament)?
Anyway, great write-up, InControl, and very motivational. And best of luck winning some tournaments!
On November 23 2011 06:31 Smackzilla wrote: This is slightly off-topic, but InControl mentioned 200k+ watching MLG finals. In Sundance's interview he said he was hoping for 300k viewers for MLG Providence or else he'd be disappointed. I *think* he meant for the whole tournament, he wanted 300k independent people to tune in at some point throughout the whole tournament.
My question is:
Has anyone has seen MLG's stats for viewership at MLG Providence and did MLG hit their targets for viewership, subscriptions, etc(for what was an EPIC tournament)?
Anyway, great write-up, InControl, and very motivational. And best of luck winning some tournaments!
That would be quite the disaster since they had a million unique last time
On November 23 2011 06:31 Smackzilla wrote: This is slightly off-topic, but InControl mentioned 200k+ watching MLG finals. In Sundance's interview he said he was hoping for 300k viewers for MLG Providence or else he'd be disappointed. I *think* he meant for the whole tournament, he wanted 300k independent people to tune in at some point throughout the whole tournament.
My question is:
Has anyone has seen MLG's stats for viewership at MLG Providence and did MLG hit their targets for viewership, subscriptions, etc(for what was an EPIC tournament)?
Anyway, great write-up, InControl, and very motivational. And best of luck winning some tournaments!
That would be quite the disaster since they had a million unique last time
On November 23 2011 06:31 Smackzilla wrote: This is slightly off-topic, but InControl mentioned 200k+ watching MLG finals. In Sundance's interview he said he was hoping for 300k viewers for MLG Providence or else he'd be disappointed. I *think* he meant for the whole tournament, he wanted 300k independent people to tune in at some point throughout the whole tournament.
My question is:
Has anyone has seen MLG's stats for viewership at MLG Providence and did MLG hit their targets for viewership, subscriptions, etc(for what was an EPIC tournament)?
Anyway, great write-up, InControl, and very motivational. And best of luck winning some tournaments!
That would be quite the disaster since they had a million unique last time
They've never had a million concurrent.
It's a good thing I said unique then, I almost embarassed myself there
Another reason I'm very sad you won't be at Dreamhack... I would be able to thank you in person for all you do in this community. I recently ordered two of the new Teamliquid shirts and I ordered EG clothes at splitreason for these reasons. My hardware and peripherals have several Intel, Kingston, Steelseries and Razer parts. I recently begun streaming and uploading highlights to youtube, opened a twitter etc... I need more content though since I've been having a rather slow start. I'm hoping to record videos etc at Dreamhack to put on Youtube, who knows... Maybe someone out there will watch it and start following SC2.
Amazing post, I feel inspired to spread the word and pledge that I will endeavour to do so more often. My single qualm with it however is that while the growth of SC2 and even Esports in general is attractive for many reasons, I still don't feel confident that putting it on TV or making it hugely mainstream will produce benefits that outweigh the downsides.
What I mean by this is that an increase in it's status and acceptance would (imo) likely serve to increase it's professionality - at the cost of fun. I'm just worried about how certain personalities may have to change (or be scrapped), as esports becomes drier and ultra politically correct, losing (for some) the entertainment factor and what makes this (comparitively) smaller commnity fantastic, just for the sake of keeping the masses happy.
This is just the way my brain foresees it ending up, I completely accept that this could be a gross exaggeration of what ends up happening but it just seems the most likely to me.
Sick inspiring post, I've been thinking things similar for quite a while now but haven't felt pushed to do anything. This has made me realize how much each individual can do even more, and I'm thinking about getting into recaps, write ups, and personal stories. I had a fairly long thing written up about Blizzcon 2011, my personal experience and my personal realizations during it, but I never posted it. I'm going to contribute more and more to the community myself and continue to attempt to get more people into it. TY for this iNcontroL!
On November 23 2011 07:15 Phenny wrote: Amazing post, I feel inspired to spread the word and pledge that I will endeavour to do so more often. My single qualm with it however is that while the growth of SC2 and even Esports in general is attractive for many reasons, I still don't feel confident that putting it on TV or making it hugely mainstream will produce benefits that outweigh the downsides.
What I mean by this is that an increase in it's status and acceptance would (imo) likely serve to increase it's professionality - at the cost of fun. I'm just worried about how certain personalities may have to change (or be scrapped), as esports becomes drier and ultra politically correct, losing (for some) the entertainment factor and what makes this (comparitively) smaller commnity fantastic, just for the sake of keeping the masses happy.
This is just the way my brain foresees it ending up, I completely accept that this could be a gross exaggeration of what ends up happening but it just seems the most likely to me.
i dont quite get what you mean i dont think theres any of the BIG casters that go around swearing and doing stuff they wouldnt want on TV, and the less big casters would still be online with the other tournaments
and TV would never replace the online community, but having it on TV means barcrafts become alot more easy
tournaments will always have there online streams going on i mean alot of us are computer nerds in addition to starcraft nerds, and there have been times i enjoy playing the game while checking out a stream or tournament so streams will always be the easiest way for alot of fans to get there fix but for other more "normal" fans who treat the game like football or soccer TV will be the easiest way for them
On November 23 2011 07:15 Phenny wrote: Amazing post, I feel inspired to spread the word and pledge that I will endeavour to do so more often. My single qualm with it however is that while the growth of SC2 and even Esports in general is attractive for many reasons, I still don't feel confident that putting it on TV or making it hugely mainstream will produce benefits that outweigh the downsides.
What I mean by this is that an increase in it's status and acceptance would (imo) likely serve to increase it's professionality - at the cost of fun. I'm just worried about how certain personalities may have to change (or be scrapped), as esports becomes drier and ultra politically correct, losing (for some) the entertainment factor and what makes this (comparitively) smaller commnity fantastic, just for the sake of keeping the masses happy.
This is just the way my brain foresees it ending up, I completely accept that this could be a gross exaggeration of what ends up happening but it just seems the most likely to me.
i dont quite get what you mean i dont think theres any of the BIG casters that go around swearing and doing stuff they wouldnt want on TV, and the less big casters would still be online with the other tournaments
and TV would never replace the online community, but having it on TV means barcrafts become alot more easy
tournaments will always have there online streams going on i mean alot of us are computer nerds in addition to starcraft nerds, and there have been times i enjoy playing the game while checking out a stream or tournament so streams will always be the easiest way for alot of fans to get there fix but for other more "normal" fans who treat the game like football or soccer TV will be the easiest way for them
Yeh now the more I think about it the more I think my concern is pretty dumb, I mean 99%+ of what happens on tournament streams would be perfectly fine on TV...
I really do agree that this (SC2) community is the most capable of bringing E Sports to places it has never reached before. I played gamebattles on console and games like the Halo, Cod, and Gears series. I have played Dota fairly competitively with Clan matches on Battle.net and have played LoL and HoN extensively too. This community by far blows me away with their support and willingness to make SC2 prosper. The future just keeps getting brighter and brighter and I can't wait.
Thanks Geoff, I enjoyed reading it and have retweeted the article. This community has a ton of (wo)manpower that could use some direction in how to help the game we love and enjoy grow even bigger. Bottom line is that we all can do something to help out, lets get shit done.
Even though I consider myself more of a passive member in this community, your post actually did make me think about my 'role' here, which was probably exactly your point!
SC2 CAN actually change this world a little bit if we all put some effort in it.
Incontrol, I generally do not contribute to the community, but as that seems to be the intent of your post, I am inclined to share.
There were a few points in your post which I disagreed with and wanted to bring to your attention: I have no interest in going to see a pop-group perform at a venue before watching matches. The thought of the "live Korean event" replicated here in the states is not something I see as realistic. Obviously there is opportunity and success in live SC2 events here, but I am not sure how much more you will interest people in the game with the addition of various musical acts. It comes across as hokey, or cheesy. This is what prompted me to reply. I have ZERO interest in seeing SC2 get the "ESPN" treatment. I feel like a lot of what you have written can be broken down into 2 statements - commercialize SC2 to the MAX and shove it down peoples throat's. I enjoy SC2 immensely and see how large exposure can generate certain positives. However, I do not see where you are weighing any of the negatives. Commercialization will equate to the watering down of what is currently a very "pure" product. I choose not to pay for cable for this reason. LOST was a great show, but 42/60 minute time slots while I am forced to PAY FOR THE PRODUCT is not desirable. As things stand, if I tune in to a random stream and have to deal with a few commercials while NOT PAYING for my entertainment, I can stomach that. When I purchase a pass to watch a certain league or tournament, I generally am not subjected to commercials and I am happy with this as well. All of that will change with large corporate interest in SC2. There are many other games and forms of entertainment which are very popular, and have major proponents of, such as yourself. Chess, checkers, Magic, Yugioh, football, soccer, baseball, etc. Not everyone loves them as much as others. Just because I might be the biggest soccer fan doesn't mean you have to be. Nor should you have it forced on you. I'm not the biggest fan of craft shows. If they were shoved in my face all the time by their fans, I would be much less inclined to want to consume it. I understand you seek greater exposure for SC2, but is that always going to be a good thing? Which brings me to my last point. I completely agree with you in saying that the community should be unabashed in contacting sponsors, team owners, and using public forum such as contacting Providence officials to say thank you, etc. Those are perfectly acceptable examples. I would suggest that you might want to tone back your message about fans getting in PLAYERS faces though. I have taken the time to write my favorite player and both times they were kind enough to reply (or have someone do it for them! lol). If I began consistently e-mailing, tweeting, posting about, attempting to contact, trying to call, you begin to cross a line that should NOT be crossed. Does this community really need encouragement toward that? I've seen a fair bit of harassment toward Anna from members of the community. How much more of that would she and yourself like to see? You may want to be treated like a rock star, but the celebrity and exposure has its pitfalls as well. All in all I see where you are coming from and respect your enthusiasm and dedication. I just hope you might think about refining the message in hopes of getting a better end result for yourself/ves (you and fellow players/casters) as well as we the consumer, the fan. Thank you for taking the time, good luck in your future results and endeavors!
On November 23 2011 09:01 kiHrt wrote: Thoughts of a random fan:
Incontrol, I generally do not contribute to the community, but as that seems to be the intent of your post, I am inclined to share.
There were a few points in your post which I disagreed with and wanted to bring to your attention: I have no interest in going to see a pop-group perform at a venue before watching matches. The thought of the "live Korean event" replicated here in the states is not something I see as realistic. Obviously there is opportunity and success in live SC2 events here, but I am not sure how much more you will interest people in the game with the addition of various musical acts. It comes across as hokey, or cheesy. This is what prompted me to reply. I have ZERO interest in seeing SC2 get the "ESPN" treatment. I feel like a lot of what you have written can be broken down into 2 statements - commercialize SC2 to the MAX and shove it down peoples throat's. I enjoy SC2 immensely and see how large exposure can generate certain positives. However, I do not see where you are weighing any of the negatives. Commercialization will equate to the watering down of what is currently a very "pure" product. I choose not to pay for cable for this reason. LOST was a great show, but 42/60 minute time slots while I am forced to PAY FOR THE PRODUCT is not desirable. As things stand, if I tune in to a random stream and have to deal with a few commercials while NOT PAYING for my entertainment, I can stomach that. When I purchase a pass to watch a certain league or tournament, I generally am not subjected to commercials and I am happy with this as well. All of that will change with large corporate interest in SC2. There are many other games and forms of entertainment which are very popular, and have major proponents of, such as yourself. Chess, checkers, Magic, Yugioh, football, soccer, baseball, etc. Not everyone loves them as much as others. Just because I might be the biggest soccer fan doesn't mean you have to be. Nor should you have it forced on you. I'm not the biggest fan of craft shows. If they were shoved in my face all the time by their fans, I would be much less inclined to want to consume it. I understand you seek greater exposure for SC2, but is that always going to be a good thing? Which brings me to my last point. I completely agree with you in saying that the community should be unabashed in contacting sponsors, team owners, and using public forum such as contacting Providence officials to say thank you, etc. Those are perfectly acceptable examples. I would suggest that you might want to tone back your message about fans getting in PLAYERS faces though. I have taken the time to write my favorite player and both times they were kind enough to reply (or have someone do it for them! lol). If I began consistently e-mailing, tweeting, posting about, attempting to contact, trying to call, you begin to cross a line that should NOT be crossed. Does this community really need encouragement toward that? I've seen a fair bit of harassment toward Anna from members of the community. How much more of that would she and yourself like to see? You may want to be treated like a rock star, but the celebrity and exposure has its pitfalls as well. All in all I see where you are coming from and respect your enthusiasm and dedication. I just hope you might think about refining the message in hopes of getting a better end result for yourself/ves (you and fellow players/casters) as well as we the consumer, the fan. Thank you for taking the time, good luck in your future results and endeavors!
/typical Incontrol rage comments
=D
I appreciate your candor but you are missing the point big time... well many points actually.
Personal preference on music before an SC2 event and how it "can't work" is on the one hand a fallacy but on the other factually wrong. Blizzcon has had a musical act and it was well received. NASL did this, great. Korea has done this, wonderful. You not "liking it" does not constitute some kind of "it won't work" response.. especially when you have nothing to back that up.
ESPN treatment as some kind of way to force SC2 on people and then comparing it to soccer and how people don't need soccer forced on them... don't know where to start. Nowhere do I say "go force this on people" I simply encourage people to share something they are passionate about. I didn't say go find 5 people and rape them with SC2.. I said inform them on something you care about and maybe 1 in 5 will end up liking it. Have you ever told someone about a book or show you liked? I'm asking for the same thing. Nobody goes "WOAH WOAH WOAH.. don't you DARE tell me about your favorite book and try to get me to read it!"
Lastly you end with some jab about how I just want better treatment and to be more famous.. no, that isn't my sole interest, but I'd be lying if I told you I would hate it if I got more attention and fame. Simply put, what is good for me is good for you the viewer and vice-versa. You can knock it down as much as you like.. but that just proves my point: We need more people saying "yes we can" and fewer people saying "no you can't, and you just want me to spend money blah blah"
On November 22 2011 16:41 Duravi wrote: Ok, in a more eloquent way without singling out anything about you Incontrol, what I want to say is a large part of the reason we have the quality of events that we do now is due to the massive negativity on TL an Reddit after events like MLG Dallas and Blizzcon.
You can be critical without being a spiteful jackass, that's his point.
So you don't think all the spiteful jackasses had anything to do with the massive improvement of MLG?
So you think spiteful jackasses are the foundation of progress and improvement everywhere? Or just progaming and Internet?
Geoff you're the man. I wish you all the best in your continued pursuit of your dreams
Also, I will definitely be pushing more of my friends to trying out watching SC2 now! Many already now I watch, but I've never suggested they also watch...
Exactly ... man, I want to share this community with EVERYONE... eSports is going to be the largest sport in the world 1 day, I know this. It will be the #1 sport in the world ... so lets get this movement going!
i wonder if there is one of iNcontrols dreams we could come true
right now we see E-Sports becoming more known with all the huge publicity with all the numbers at blizzcon and providence
and then theres all the documentarys out
why not take the Day[9] daily and take it one sep further and have Day[9] going through a pro game in slow motion and explaning everything thats going on in extreme depth?
not saying this has to happen immediately or happen alot but even if we get a couple good pros or commentators and go over a big game and explain everything that happens and jsut completely break it down for someone whos trying to learn the game at the most basic level? as in someone who this owuld be the first time theyve ever seen a starcraft game
And this is why no matter how poor Incontrol does in any tournament (and I have complete faith that he will bounce back soon), I will cherish my time of hearing his voice on SoTG. No hetero.
Didn't take a look at the author at first, but half way through i scrolled to check up who wrote this and was surprised. Normaly i dont read your posts or just skim through, but this was written really well and interesting.
Always speading the word among firends when watching an event or online tournament
hey, i have a point to make on the issue of starcraft to TV. i don't think its about the MASS watching it on TV as it is to bringing the content to a new viewership. theres people who don't watch things on the internet. and they could get interest in Stracraft by watching it on TV. thus making the community bigger!
Just want to say how much your blog really touched me as a member of the SC2 community. I'm actually the person that decided to "Send a picture you drew to CatZ when you stayed up late and watched his stream and all it's shenanigans" and it was really crazy to see that such a small input from my end has managed to reach so many people! I'm so excited to see where esports can go from here and I think with people like you at the forefront it can only get bigger and better from here on. Thank you so much for all the time you put into this community ^^
Great blog, Geoff. It actually got me to finally get on Twitter. (Kind of pathetic, I'm a marketing degree graduate who just got twitter? lol.)
I'm hoping that the popularity of eSports starts expanding into more unrelated industries for sponsorships and affiliations. The best part about the eSports phenomenon getting recognition in the U.S. right now is it is a new way to generate jobs and linking industries to one another for B2B opportunities. The fact it's a recession right now and you see an ROI of $1 million pumped into Providence is great, I can't believe it's not getting more exposure on the news.
Either way, hopefully endorsements are in the future. It would open up so many job opportunities for companies. The thought of brand managers, account managers and B2B sales/director positions opening up for this industry one day gives me chills. Talk about a dream job to help cultivate tournaments, find sponsorships and affiliations as well as work on customer retention by having players endorse gaming products.
Long time lurker who rarely posts but thought I'd chime in after seeing this on Reddit:
like a few posters before me (MountainDew, sharkeyanti, DarkSider, kiHrt) I think you need to make an addendum to your post on WHY the community should share our passions and grow E-sports. You thoroughly request and encourage action but don't do as good a job explaining why; maybe you think this is obvious but to me (skeptical dude) it's not. I care mostly that the community and "scene" can support itself and continue to exist but aside from that, I'm not so sure I'd like to see rampant growth and influx of commercial dollars.
One of the main draws and beauty of our community (in my hipster mind) is in it's accessibility. I can watch a stream of my favorite player, watch high quality play 24/7, go to a local event, email with players concerning strategy, etc. without the obstruction and limitations that a larger and more commercial sport would encourage. I no longer go to NFL games because it's so expensive and the experience isn't as fun as it used to be. Not a perfect analogy obviously but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives for me, the average SC2 fan, concerning further growth and commercialization of SC2.
I can obviously see how the people who make money off SC2 would love it to be 10x as large a scene but ultimately I worry it would be a Faustian bargain, with fans' SC2 experiences suffering in the end. I'm not totally selfish though, I want SC2 to grow to the point where pros and good players can support themselves and be successful playing SC2. I just don't want Coca-Cola replacing Day9 with Joe Buck or Guy Fieri and messing up what we do have going already.
TL:DR - Please explain WHY large growth is good for everyone in SC2; players, sponsors, and most importantly the average SC2 fan.
InControl, I have a few questions for you regarding your feelings about Protoss. If you never answer me I understand, I'm just one little voice, a speck of sand in an entire beach.
It has to do with what you've said before on SOTG, how perpetually dissatisfied you are with Protoss and Blizzard for not coming through on Balance. At the last MLG we had Naniwa vs Leenock(PvZ) and think just about everyone was as thrilled as can be. The final epic showdown which coincidentally happened to be foreigner vs Korean, the final deciding match where just about everyone was ready to take sides with something.
All the terrans have been defeated, which I predict won't even be addressed at the next SOTG(sigh already about to start as I write this). When I count Destiny, yourself, Tyler, and Artosis, there are no Terran players here...plus the overwhelming sense that no one likes Terran in the group, and no one is maining Terran either.
I just want to ask you if you ever predict - for yourself, whether your doom and gloom feelings will change regarding Protoss. Or is SC2 just another Dawn of War, Command & Conquer or those other games which never truly lived up to BW standards.
On November 23 2011 11:31 CannonFodder wrote: Long time lurker who rarely posts but thought I'd chime in after seeing this on Reddit:
like a few posters before me (MountainDew, sharkeyanti, DarkSider, kiHrt) I think you need to make an addendum to your post on WHY the community should share our passions and grow E-sports. You thoroughly request and encourage action but don't do as good a job explaining why; maybe you think this is obvious but to me (skeptical dude) it's not. I care mostly that the community and "scene" can support itself and continue to exist but aside from that, I'm not so sure I'd like to see rampant growth and influx of commercial dollars.
One of the main draws and beauty of our community (in my hipster mind) is in it's accessibility. I can watch a stream of my favorite player, watch high quality play 24/7, go to a local event, email with players concerning strategy, etc. without the obstruction and limitations that a larger and more commercial sport would encourage. I no longer go to NFL games because it's so expensive and the experience isn't as fun as it used to be. Not a perfect analogy obviously but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives for me, the average SC2 fan, concerning further growth and commercialization of SC2.
I can obviously see how the people who make money off SC2 would love it to be 10x as large a scene but ultimately I worry it would be a Faustian bargain, with fans' SC2 experiences suffering in the end. I'm not totally selfish though, I want SC2 to grow to the point where pros and good players can support themselves and be successful playing SC2. I just don't want Coca-Cola replacing Day9 with Joe Buck or Guy Fieri and messing up what we do have going already.
TL:DR - Please explain WHY large growth is good for everyone in SC2; players, sponsors, and most importantly the average SC2 fan.
Would be kind of odd to explain to you that we've already experienced growth and you LIKE it. We used to not have replays in BW. We used to not have players earning huge salaries and doing commercials that make us laugh... it took growth to get there. Me asking for the community to share their passion for this game with other people to hopefully get more people to share in that joy and then also help benefit everyone else by creating MORE fans and MORE support it only gets better.
Do you want smaller MLG's? Do you want less professional players? If so then you were never going to like what I was saying.
Is this even real growth we are seeing or simply maximizing the audience who would always have been interested in it, thanks to better technology? I don't see why the numbers are so surprising/amazing really, especially if you cherry pick something like Blizzcon which is big because it's not just an SC2 tournament. An actual break into the mainstream would be. But it's not that at all. Technology after all is cited as one of the reasons BW took off so well in Korea. And we have no other real competitive RTS to even compare to.
The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person.
And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference.
Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic.
Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it.
On November 23 2011 11:31 CannonFodder wrote: Long time lurker who rarely posts but thought I'd chime in after seeing this on Reddit:
like a few posters before me (MountainDew, sharkeyanti, DarkSider, kiHrt) I think you need to make an addendum to your post on WHY the community should share our passions and grow E-sports. You thoroughly request and encourage action but don't do as good a job explaining why; maybe you think this is obvious but to me (skeptical dude) it's not. I care mostly that the community and "scene" can support itself and continue to exist but aside from that, I'm not so sure I'd like to see rampant growth and influx of commercial dollars.
One of the main draws and beauty of our community (in my hipster mind) is in it's accessibility. I can watch a stream of my favorite player, watch high quality play 24/7, go to a local event, email with players concerning strategy, etc. without the obstruction and limitations that a larger and more commercial sport would encourage. I no longer go to NFL games because it's so expensive and the experience isn't as fun as it used to be. Not a perfect analogy obviously but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not sure the positives outweigh the negatives for me, the average SC2 fan, concerning further growth and commercialization of SC2.
I can obviously see how the people who make money off SC2 would love it to be 10x as large a scene but ultimately I worry it would be a Faustian bargain, with fans' SC2 experiences suffering in the end. I'm not totally selfish though, I want SC2 to grow to the point where pros and good players can support themselves and be successful playing SC2. I just don't want Coca-Cola replacing Day9 with Joe Buck or Guy Fieri and messing up what we do have going already.
TL:DR - Please explain WHY large growth is good for everyone in SC2; players, sponsors, and most importantly the average SC2 fan.
While I realize I'm not Incontrol, I have a business background and would like to expand a little on it.
In the state the U.S. economy is in, especially if you're young - we can use any stimulus helping our market place right now. A new rising industry is almost always going to be great for all participants involved including consumers. An industry that creates careers, encourages affiliations between companies and potentially births a cult-like following that can be compared to sports, pop stars and other cultural phenomenons is great.
The idea of commercialization is changing and has changed since the creation of the NFL, MLB and similar sports leagues. You may even consider them being behind as they are stuck dealing with commercials that interrupt game play and the invention of Tivo that consequentially has a negative effect on Nielsen ratings. A lot of marketers currently are acknowledging that mainstream television is a thing of the past. The internet and the idea of being able to stream things when you want them is coming into effect, this is why you see a lot of companies having two way conversations with their consumers. Mass advertisements and commercialization do not work anymore. Consumers simply tune out and don't care.
Players: It's great because they're getting more recognition, better audiences, more sponsors and fans. There are not too many negatives for the players other than more pressure to perform. Sponsors: Brand recognition and awareness. If your favorite player pushes a product, the chances of you buying it increases significantly, even more if you feel they have common interests as you. Average SC2 Fan: The way you view Starcraft isn't going to change much, streaming will not be going away any time soon. Participating in events may cost more, but that's to be expected to cover costs of the venue and overhead. Replacing casters is doubtful, Starcraft 2 is a niche industry still - not everyone can do analytical casting. It's not a mainstream sport that has been around for years where you have people understanding the analytical depths it takes while making it interesting (People in our community even struggle with casting and have been interested in the game for years whether SC:BW or SC2). An every day caster for other sports couldn't just walk in and be able to cast it. Tasteless' becoming a caster actually illustrates that point if you know his background and story.
TLDR; Think of it as an opportunity for an industry you love to produce better content, bigger tournaments and more exposure all while creating jobs for your fellow SC2 enthusiast. The things that directly effect you in a non-monetary way are more fans to relate with, more (read: intense) rivalries and more players. The best part and bottom line about eSports is it isn't getting rid of any current careers. It's a new market that takes away from no other industries, whereas most industries that have rose in the past decade do in fact take away from other industries to create jobs for people.
On November 23 2011 11:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Is this even real growth we are seeing or simply maximizing the audience who would always have been interested in it, thanks to better technology? I don't see why the numbers are so surprising/amazing really, especially if you cherry pick something like Blizzcon which is big because it's not just an SC2 tournament. An actual break into the mainstream would be. But it's not that at all. Technology after all is cited as one of the reasons BW took off so well in Korea. And we have no other real competitive RTS to even compare to.
The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person.
And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference.
Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic.
Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it.
I really don't understand your point. In the U.S. 97 percent of teenagers play video games. I can't even comprehend how many people that would be if expanded globally. More than half the U.S adults play video games as well, 60-70% of adults. I understand being a skeptic and questioning the growth, that's fine, but the potential is in fact there. Teenagers dictate a large amount of discretionary income (their parents'), that's why the gaming industry is thriving and has been. The demographic of being a "gamer" extends to nearly everyone in the U.S. - I can't speak globally because I don't study marketing in other countries - but for the U.S. specifically, the gaming community is the greater majority of the population, it isn't a niche to be a gamer any longer. That fact alone opens a large door for Starcraft 2 to become really popular among adults and teenagers whether they're casual gamers or not.
Adults that have children not only enjoy games, but enjoy bonding with their children.
On November 23 2011 11:50 infinity2k9 wrote: Is this even real growth we are seeing or simply maximizing the audience who would always have been interested in it, thanks to better technology? I don't see why the numbers are so surprising/amazing really, especially if you cherry pick something like Blizzcon which is big because it's not just an SC2 tournament. An actual break into the mainstream would be. But it's not that at all. Technology after all is cited as one of the reasons BW took off so well in Korea. And we have no other real competitive RTS to even compare to.
The audience at the end of the day is still vastly starcraft players and general gamers (please don't give me anecdotal evidence of others watching, cause it's clear the vast vast majority is) . Nothing wrong with that, there's a shitload of gamers. But people are talking like it's going to spread outside of that. Honestly? Looking at the average progame objectively, i don't see what appeal it has no matter what forced narrative you put on the game in question. It's not like the 'storylines' are THAT interesting and are usually based on something that would seem minor to the average person.
And that guy did have somewhat of a point regarding commercialization. If you use BW as an example of it being possible to reach the mainstream, extremely important to note: it was not a for profit venture. Now it's the total opposite. Now which is preferable is an opinion but it obviously makes a huge difference.
Seriously eSports nearly always means SC2 as well despite the disclaimer; none of the things really apply to the other games. It almost sounds like a cult the way some people put it, and they always always mean SC2. What about just letting the game prove itself and it will grow on it's on if it's that damn good as people keep saying it is. Despite the fact it's not even complete so who knows. Hard to escape the feeling that no matter what state SC2 was released in, that community people would be pushing it hard like this and getting everyone on a bandwagon; reasons being obvious. Not saying anyone is deliberately misleading, but there's a lot of people who were basically immediately in positions where they had a huge impact on community thought. But their livelihoods depend on the overall message being positive; so now it's 'support esports' and 'spread sc2'.. but it's not like they are going to say the opposite is it, or anything in between. It's like the SC2 casting in general, everything great, amazing, epic.
Edit: let me just say, this is also the reason why whenever i watch the game i get a feeling of fakeness, that this is manufactured. It didn't have real growth because people loved the game it had everyone moving to it because there was money in it.
thats still growth
and there are tons of people who have said "i watch but dont play" thats obviously people who normally wouldnt be interested
and the GSL, normally we wouldnt be interested but Tastosis MADE us interested, imagine if it was some caster noone liked, the GSL wouldnt nearly be as big
If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick.
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game.
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick.
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game.
Yeah, but there are opinions and speculations with statistical inference backing and then there are "common sense" opinions. The latter being more often incorrect than not. It's not meant to dog on you or anything of that nature, but if you think it has no potential for growth and will fall pretty quick - why are you investing time in it?
People don't typically invest time (the greatest commodity a human being has) into a dead end route that has no potential for growth in the future.
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick.
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game.
i dont get how you can say that
MLG has been growing bigger and bigger every event blizzcon was PACKED more and more tournaments are popping up with large prizes players are getting better and better the BW pros are preparing to migrate
im not saying people are interested in GSL only becuase of Tastosis but if it wasnt for Tastosis not nearly as many people would be interested Tastosis reeled them in and the games made them stay
every day i hear about people who say they dont paly the game and only watch it, it is obvious that these people are not the sort of people who would normally be interested in watching a game yet they do
Right now - the game is being actively patched and expansions are going to be released. For all of this bullshit nobody seems to mention the actual game. I think the play will stagnate once it stops unless they are going to deliberate keep changing the game to keep it varied. There's already tons of similar games constantly, how interested do you think these more casual viewers are going to be when they've seen the same shit done hundreds of times before. And no BW pro's are not going to migrate, PL starts on Saturday and it makes no sense that they would unless they are unable to compete. Even inform players who retired are not switching to SC2 (ie: HiyA or Midas, both better than any player who switched before).
And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed...
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick.
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game.
Yeah, but there are opinions and speculations with statistical inference backing and then there are "common sense" opinions. The latter being more often incorrect than not. It's not meant to dog on you or anything of that nature, but if you think it has no potential for growth and will fall pretty quick - why are you investing time in it?
People don't typically invest time (the greatest commodity a human being has) into a dead end route that has no potential for growth in the future.
I didn't want to argue about it as i said but your statistics obviously mean fuck all. Just because 70% of whoever has played a game in some period of time doesn't mean they are any more likely to watch/understand SC2. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers let alone with wider society. Then once you get past that it's hardly the easiest game to understand; just look on this forum half of the people can't even see their own obvious mistakes in games. And then even if they do understand it, what if it isn't interesting? It's like a lot of people jumping to the conclusion, i like Starcraft so as long as someone else understands it they will like.
I don't invest any time in it except these posts and some games i watch now and then. Just think maybe people need some alternate views before they get carried away on a hype train driven by people who are totally invested in the hype succeeding.
On November 23 2011 13:24 infinity2k9 wrote: Right now - the game is being actively patched and expansions are going to be released. For all of this bullshit nobody seems to mention the actual game. I think the play will stagnate once it stops unless they are going to deliberate keep changing the game to keep it varied. There's already tons of similar games constantly, how interested do you think these more casual viewers are going to be when they've seen the same shit done hundreds of times before. And no BW pro's are not going to migrate, PL starts on Saturday and it makes no sense that they would unless they are unable to compete. Even inform players who retired are not switching to SC2 (ie: HiyA or Midas, both better than any player who switched before).
And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed...
the proleague plans to add starcraft 2
its been confirmed that pretty much every BW team is secretly or openly practicing SC2
BW pros went to blizzcon and were confirmed to be amazed at the size of the crowds
BW was around for 12 years and noone grew bored of it why would SC2 be any different?
I don't know if it'll work. Looking at IPL and NASL and in some part playhem, the numbers just aren't enough, not even for ESPN 2. Starcraft doesn't seem to work on that day to day watch it for hours basis, at least not yet, not internationally. People don't want to see high level games, they'd rather have entertainment and right now there hasn't been a great way interweave the two. I hope it's figured out and really hope this isn't a bubble since it's definitely not past the time for that to still be a danger.
KeSPA said they would look into the possibility of an SC2 proleague - of course they would they are the official esports body of Korea not the Brood War Association. Nothing has been confirmed about anything unless you think completely anonymous quotes is confirmation. Openly they are blatantly practicing for BW because it's starting on Saturday and is much bigger than SC2 in Korea. Again with confirmed; why would they be amazed when it's not even close to the size of the biggest BW event crowds? They left half-way through the finals so it couldn't have been that great for them. As you people like to point out SC2 is not the same game as BW, SC2 isn't going to strategically evolve for 12 years.
Really get a clue, do you and other people just read through articles and pick out words you like? If the growth is as good as you say why would you care if players of an older game switched or not.. but as i said if Midas, HiyA, Tempest are not switching then why would players under contract switch.
This is fucking stupid to bring up here though. But your constant bullshit takes so much words to correct because its ALL wrong.
On November 23 2011 13:24 infinity2k9 wrote: Right now - the game is being actively patched and expansions are going to be released. For all of this bullshit nobody seems to mention the actual game. I think the play will stagnate once it stops unless they are going to deliberate keep changing the game to keep it varied. There's already tons of similar games constantly, how interested do you think these more casual viewers are going to be when they've seen the same shit done hundreds of times before. And no BW pro's are not going to migrate, PL starts on Saturday and it makes no sense that they would unless they are unable to compete. Even inform players who retired are not switching to SC2 (ie: HiyA or Midas, both better than any player who switched before).
And just for other things you said; Blizzcon is not exclusively an SC2 tournament and big prize money doesn't necessarily help things compared to sponsors giving money to teams for salaries. Of course any company will throw down 50k, which is nothing to them, to put their name on a tournament. This isn't where investment is needed...
On November 23 2011 13:01 infinity2k9 wrote: If you think there is tons of potential growth out there then there's not much point arguing, it's an opinion. It's all just speculation if people would like watching the progames or not. But i am of the opinion it's not as massive as people are seemingly suggesting, and it will infact start falling pretty quick.
And if you were only interested in the GSL because of Tasteless, well are you interested in the actual game at all or what... seems like a lot of new people around are barely interested in the actual game.
Yeah, but there are opinions and speculations with statistical inference backing and then there are "common sense" opinions. The latter being more often incorrect than not. It's not meant to dog on you or anything of that nature, but if you think it has no potential for growth and will fall pretty quick - why are you investing time in it?
People don't typically invest time (the greatest commodity a human being has) into a dead end route that has no potential for growth in the future.
I didn't want to argue about it as i said but your statistics obviously mean fuck all. Just because 70% of whoever has played a game in some period of time doesn't mean they are any more likely to watch/understand SC2. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers let alone with wider society. Then once you get past that it's hardly the easiest game to understand; just look on this forum half of the people can't even see their own obvious mistakes in games. And then even if they do understand it, what if it isn't interesting? It's like a lot of people jumping to the conclusion, i like Starcraft so as long as someone else understands it they will like.
I don't invest any time in it except these posts and some games i watch now and then. Just think maybe people need some alternate views before they get carried away on a hype train driven by people who are totally invested in the hype succeeding.
Lol, those statistics don't mean fuck all in the slightest? I understand why you'd reject them because they completely deteriorate the points you're trying to make about no growth possibilities, but labeling them as null and void, really? 70% of adults is a huge demographic in terms of consumers to market - it's actually larger than most demographics where successful products are sold and it's 97% of teenagers in the U.S. It isn't "played a game in some period of time." It is plays a game consistently at the time of the survey. Competitive games have a stigma within gamers? You realize that stigma is the same within sports fanatics, correct? Every single sport has depths to understanding and analysis. The average person doesn't understand analysis of batting averages in comparison to the rest of players, most casual watchers actually don't even pay attention to it yet MLB generates an insane amount of revenue. You can pick a less popular sport such as bowling or the phenomenon of NASCAR's success (which wasn't popular at all in the beginning, it had a significantly smaller demographic than gaming does.) if that validates it further for you.
You ask what if it isn't interesting, which I could see being a problem in some cases. It really depends how you market and present it. Watching cars go around a track on television 300 times doesn't seem interesting, yet it generates more revenue than any other spectator sport in the business. Tide laundry detergent isn't very exciting either, yet they have a huge culture of loyal customers to make a more extreme example. Anyway, the same thoughts can be applied to nearly every hobby in life, it's a scapegoat to be pessimistic about growth models when demographics seem endless. It's why your logic just still isn't making sense. It's not even to insult you, it just logically doesn't deduce much. The facts are 97% (In marketing questionnaire statistics, this is essentially 100% with a standard error of +(-) 3% if more than 1,000 people were surveyed.) of teens play video games and are marketable to, coupled with the amount of adults, just in the United States. That's a pretty small target market in comparison to the global possibilities, which Starcraft II offers.
All your arguments don't want to speculate on facts of demographics, growth patterns, revenues or return on investments. It seems your purpose for posting is to be a skeptic, but unfortunately not a logically sound skeptic. Pros have switched over to Starcraft 2. I'm not sure what you consider Boxer, Nestea, MMA and the like are (Why does this even matter? We have tons of great players in the SC2 community even if they were to not play.) Just because every single Brood War progamer didn't move to Starcraft 2 doesn't speak about its validity for growth or stagnancy.
Also, no company would just "throw down 50k" to put their name down on a tournament. Do you know how hard it is to solidify a brand name and culture for a company like Redbull (who already has dealt with numerous allegations of legitimacy and health issues.), Nos or Monster? They're endorsing that tournament for what they think is a good investment and a growing industry to increase sales and brand recognition among a growing target market. Companies have a bit more strategic planning than "You know what, let's slap our name on this and endorse this because hell - it could work, right? 50,000 dollars is nothing to us anyway." They risk their brand, they risk their public image if the tournaments flops, they risk the idea that their target market isn't actually watching that tournament and doesn't care about their product. 50,000 dollars in operational revenue is someone's salary in exchange for a one time event. So those companies that sponsor those events, they see their sponsorship opportunity cost as being more productive to their brand image than someone's salary for an entire year.
On November 23 2011 13:52 infinity2k9 wrote: KeSPA said they would look into the possibility of an SC2 proleague - of course they would they are the official esports body of Korea not the Brood War Association. Nothing has been confirmed about anything unless you think completely anonymous quotes is confirmation. Openly they are blatantly practicing for BW because it's starting on Saturday and is much bigger than SC2 in Korea. Again with confirmed; why would they be amazed when it's not even close to the size of the biggest BW event crowds? They left half-way through the finals so it couldn't have been that great for them. As you people like to point out SC2 is not the same game as BW, SC2 isn't going to strategically evolve for 12 years.
Really get a clue, do you and other people just read through articles and pick out words you like? If the growth is as good as you say why would you care if players of an older game switched or not.. but as i said if Midas, HiyA, Tempest are not switching then why would players under contract switch.
This is fucking stupid to bring up here though. But your constant bullshit takes so much words to correct because its ALL wrong.
KeSPA has said they plan to make the switch BW pros have said there making a switch maybe the reason RETIRED pros dont switch is becuase there RETIRED? if the BW pros switch then viewers switch too instead of Korea being split all of Kroea will watch SC2 the bigger SC2 in Korea gets the bigger it gets in the rest of the world
Wow, this seriously made me feel a little guilty that I kind of take that sit back and let other people build up the community approach. Awesome write up, iNcontrol. Actually very inspiring, and it has me reflecting on the amazing times I've had at MLG, meeting players, and watching streams and tournaments with friends and getting so psyched about sick games and plays.
I'm gonna give promoting and supporting everyone more effort. Everyone who has staked their livelihood on this game deserves it!
Are you saying to go around telling ppl that I didn't go to that thing Friday night because I was too busy being beyond nerdy and just watched some dudes playing computer games? ...I wasn't even playing computer games, I was watching other people do it, ladies and gents of the jury. Really how did you introduced your inner geek to your gf (btw well played sir, she's a babe) ? Ware you like, I do waste enourmous amounts of time playing on my computer but, in my defence, showing value, I am kinda pwning, thats how sexy I are...
SC is such a high level of geek that very few can attend, just like chess. Are chess players pulling all the babes? Cose that's what you need to transform SC from a cult to mainstream. Koreans made BW sexy by building an Idol TV culture around some progamers, and pulling in heaps of female teenagers which in turn made it socially acceptable.
That is the recepy for every mainstream competitive activity, the Stars get the babes and kids grow up wanting to be them, and, them too gettin the babes in their tents eventually. Very cynical put, but true; I highly doubt you can make SC sexy in the west for multiple reasons.
if anyone watches sotg, you would know that incontrol is the biggest contributor. what he says truly show his love for starcraft. tyler is also one that really listens intently and undetstand everything. same goes for idra, because he is so locked into his gameplay, he doesnt focus on these matters.
he sacrficed a major part of his gameplay to bring starcraft to north america. we all witness his slump due to his VOLUNTARY withdrawal from korea, he literally threw away the title of a code S GSL player and he did it in thought of INTERNATIOnAL esport, his faith held in foreign fans cannot be forgotten. imagine all the events without IdrA, what would it like today.
On November 23 2011 15:37 ubk wrote: Are you saying to go around telling ppl that I didn't go to that thing Friday night because I was too busy being beyond nerdy and just watched some dudes playing computer games? ...I wasn't even playing computer games, I was watching other people do it, ladies and gents of the jury. Really how did you introduced your inner geek to your gf (btw well played sir, she's a babe) ? Ware you like, I do waste enourmous amounts of time playing on my computer but, in my defence, showing value, I am kinda pwning, thats how sexy I are...
SC is such a high level of geek that very few can attend, just like chess. Are chess players pulling all the babes? Cose that's what you need to transform SC from a cult to mainstream. Koreans made BW sexy by building an Idol TV culture around some progamers, and pulling in heaps of female teenagers which in turn made it socially acceptable.
That is the recepy for every mainstream competitive activity, the Stars get the babes and kids grow up wanting to be them, and, them too gettin the babes in their tents eventually. Very cynical put, but true; I highly doubt you can make SC sexy in the west for multiple reasons.
TLDR : I too had a dream I was a rock'n'roll star
What's your explanation for the popularity of NASCAR, bowling or pool? None of those have sex appeal or idolatry associated with them yet generate millions of fans. They aren't exactly the coolest hobbies either, lol.
On November 23 2011 15:37 ubk wrote: Are you saying to go around telling ppl that I didn't go to that thing Friday night because I was too busy being beyond nerdy and just watched some dudes playing computer games? ...I wasn't even playing computer games, I was watching other people do it, ladies and gents of the jury. Really how did you introduced your inner geek to your gf (btw well played sir, she's a babe) ? Ware you like, I do waste enourmous amounts of time playing on my computer but, in my defence, showing value, I am kinda pwning, thats how sexy I are...
SC is such a high level of geek that very few can attend, just like chess. Are chess players pulling all the babes? Cose that's what you need to transform SC from a cult to mainstream. Koreans made BW sexy by building an Idol TV culture around some progamers, and pulling in heaps of female teenagers which in turn made it socially acceptable.
That is the recepy for every mainstream competitive activity, the Stars get the babes and kids grow up wanting to be them, and, them too gettin the babes in their tents eventually. Very cynical put, but true; I highly doubt you can make SC sexy in the west for multiple reasons.
TLDR : I too had a dream I was a rock'n'roll star
What's your explanation for the popularity of NASCAR, bowling or pool? None of those have sex appeal or idolatry associated with them yet generate millions of fans. They aren't exactly the coolest hobbies either, lol.
I've always really been on the fence on how much I want Starcraft and eSports to be a part of my life. It's posts like these that really push me closer and closer to devoting more of my time to this community. Excellent post, and I hope my twitter followers end up reading it too.
The world is moving away from television, but I love your sentiment. The things I like the most about this are how inclusive you are being and how you want to "clean up" the community. It is so true that no matter what your talents are they can be applied to sc2. I hope people take this blog and use it as inspiration to get more involved. The only time I ever feel ashamed to be apart of this community is when I see stream chats. I don't know if mods need to be more strict or what. But the last thing on my mind, when trying to get someone into this amazing game, is to tell them to go to a stream. Some chats are just as bad as youtube comments and that has always made me sad.
On November 23 2011 15:37 ubk wrote: Are you saying to go around telling ppl that I didn't go to that thing Friday night because I was too busy being beyond nerdy and just watched some dudes playing computer games? ...I wasn't even playing computer games, I was watching other people do it, ladies and gents of the jury. Really how did you introduced your inner geek to your gf (btw well played sir, she's a babe) ? Ware you like, I do waste enourmous amounts of time playing on my computer but, in my defence, showing value, I am kinda pwning, thats how sexy I are...
SC is such a high level of geek that very few can attend, just like chess. Are chess players pulling all the babes? Cose that's what you need to transform SC from a cult to mainstream. Koreans made BW sexy by building an Idol TV culture around some progamers, and pulling in heaps of female teenagers which in turn made it socially acceptable.
That is the recepy for every mainstream competitive activity, the Stars get the babes and kids grow up wanting to be them, and, them too gettin the babes in their tents eventually. Very cynical put, but true; I highly doubt you can make SC sexy in the west for multiple reasons.
TLDR : I too had a dream I was a rock'n'roll star
Anything can be construed to be "nerdy." If you are comfortable with yourself, then it shouldn't bother you. Whenever I explain how much work players put into this game, people are baffled. They can't believe that people practice for 12 hours a day and still haven't mastered every aspect of sc2. No one wants it to be seen as sexy. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. We just want sc2 to be taken seriously, and for the skill it takes to be great at this game to be recognized.
I have been apprehensive but very interested in spreading the passion for esports. Since SC2 came out, I've always had a gut feeling it would be huge, and 2011 did not disappoint.
In the past month or so I've really wanted to help and make an impression on the scene here in Toronto Canada. So a few friends and I are trying to host our very first SC2 Screening party (pseudo-Barcraft) and it's very exciting, daunting, and I really hope it goes well. I dont want to turn this post into a plug, so I wont link it here
The point is ever since planning, investing time and money into even a small event, I've been having doubts, and fears that it wont fly.
But it is posts like this that encourage me to follow through, and keep trying even if it fails
Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up.
A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small.
My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports".
Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble.
How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up.
A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small.
My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports".
Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble.
How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up.
A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small.
My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports".
Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble.
How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired
Had you said to me in January that a dota championship would give 1 million $ to the winning team and have prize pools deep as top 8, I would had said "where do you get your stuff man, seems like strong shit!". Yea dota is really... oh wait this is about SC2. Yeah this year was good for starcraft!
Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up.
A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small.
My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports".
Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble.
How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired
No worries, yeah, I thought so. I'm not so sure economic bubbles apply to Starcraft 2 in terms of spectating/popularity. I think its validity is more applied to products or shares, not so much opportunities. Many economists believe that most bubbles are caused by inflation and the rise above value so it has no option but to decrease in value to correct the imbalance in the market. More often than not, economic bubbles make the most sense in regards to real estate and the stock market, but get harder to justify in other instances outside of those realms.
Some economists try to apply it to opportunities and they're referred to as artificial situations. I'm just not sure if it applies because of Blizzard's success and brand image in the gaming community.
That's my understanding of economic bubbles based on tulip mania and south sea bubble anyhow.
additionally my actual point is we have no way to know how big the bubble goes or where it starts / ends.. it's all speculation. So sitting back going "oh man, 2012 will be the year SC2 reels it in and declines!" is not a helpful attitude. I am not saying sell the barn but I am saying get involved, do something bigger than you did before.. if everyone did that than why the hell do we need to wait for the sky to fall? Can't we make this bigger and better as we work towards it? It isn't like the bubble idea HAS to happen.. SC2's community CAN support itself.. we have that many people / infrastructural interest.
Speculating on bubbles and limits for this game and our community is a thing of the past. Or at least it should be. If you spend time predicting where this ends or how it won't succeed you have blinded yourself to the growth and stimulus we have experienced in this past year. SC2 has raised gaming to levels no other game has before. Simple as that. I welcome challenges to that statement but I would argue that by and large what SC2 has done in this past year for competitive gaming and the community around the game (casual, hobbyist or more) is unparalleled. My first challenge to you is to dare to dream.
Whilst your write up was very good. If you are comparing e-sports now to an established market, you would be able to easily predict a correction in the cycle. Nothing goes straight up.
A bubble must pop, no matter how big or small.
My harsh, but I feel true perception of this is "the removal of the leeches from e-sports".
Whilst I am unsure on your educational background Geoff, I know you are good at debates, and I am not. But I will inform you that economically and in terms of markets e-sports is in a bubble.
How big will the correction be? well, lets see what the first quarter 2012 have in store.
Not sure if you're speaking about an economic bubble or what, but your statements are kind of unclear.
The growth bubble is based on economics... Sorry, I am really tired
Market corrections are good things, especially in a very unstructured entity such as esports. It helps weed out the PPSL's so that when the time comes we don't have issues like that. Just like a prominent league dying isn't a bad thing if they have a format or payment history that hinders the furthering of esports into a standard.
You got a dream... You gotta protect it. People can't do somethin' themselves, they wanna tell you you can't do it. If you want somethin', go get it. Period. FOR ESPORT!
I'm currently helping to put together a powerpoint that will be used to convince the fine people at Nestea that SC2 is the place to spend their ad dollars.
Also kicking around the idea of starting a blog aimed at informing ad agency people and their clients that eSports is awesome.
Anyway, wish me luck! It feels great to be (maybe) making a difference.
Continueing from where the female caller from ITG yesterday about televising Starcraft - I think she had a very solid point of why Starcraft dosnt need TV and I will extend on that a little bit.
Like she said, whatever channel chooses to broadcast Starcraft in one form of the other, it will always be localized - We dont have any global channels that reach everyone - The internet does. iNcontroL has put forth 2 different versions of how Starcraft could work on TV:
a) As a highlight show, giving a rundown of a tournament showing only important moments.
b) Tournament is televised only, and not streamed on the internet, for the sake of interest in watching it on the TV-channel - I believe InC brought it up as a counter argument to why the already established viewers of Starcraft on the internet, would have interest in watching a highlight-show of something they have already seen on the internet stream.
There are of course varriations to this, but those were the two models that I picked up.
Now, I completely understand why people think its important that we get Starcraft on TV; To bring the joy of E-sport to more people than we are currently reaching through internet streams - However, I really dont think that the traditional media format does justice to how Starcraft is played - We can't have commercial breaks in a 50 minute TvT and we can't plaster Xel'Naga Caverns with commercials (Like how it works in football). To be on TV, I think that too much of what makes watching a match of Starcraft would be lost - What good is it that we are on TV, if what actually reaches the viewer is completely different to watching it on the internet - How much of the format should we sacrifice? And who would watch it then?
Another reason why I think changing our format into something that would fit onto a TV-channel, is that TV-channels are as good as obsolete already anyway! The younger generations are already used to having everything on demand - If they want to watch a show, theres a pretty good chance that they won't sit and wait till it's 8 PM on sunday to watch the new episode of their favorite show - They will simply watch it when they want and have time to through VoD-services like NetFlix for instance. You might say, that quite alot of people won't do this, because they don't want to watch these things on their computer. However, the television in your living room that you probably throw away every 3-4 years to buy a new one, already is very close to being able to show internet streams.
For instance, this Samsung TV already has app-support - You make sure that your TV has internet acess and boom - You're online from your sofa - When Samsung or a different TV-manufacturer start to allow other companies to make Apps for their devices (Apple-model), Internet stream providers such as Twitch, Livestream will rush to make apps that make TV's compatible with their streams, and everything will be available that way.
I say "nay" to changing the way we show Starcraft an E-sports in general, because I think our carrier/format is the future.
On November 24 2011 02:37 _MazeR_ wrote: iNcontroL, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
I'm currently helping to put together a powerpoint that will be used to convince the fine people at Nestea that SC2 is the place to spend their ad dollars.
Also kicking around the idea of starting a blog aimed at informing ad agency people and their clients that eSports is awesome.
Anyway, wish me luck! It feels great to be (maybe) making a difference.
Very cool, man. That's what I like to hear! More companies outside of the eSports realm getting involved and investing money to lead the way for other companies.
You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc.
wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf?
when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports.
edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
also, geoff, as long as i have your attention (maybe?); why do you assume that you're a top player who is in a slump? maybe you're just not a top player? you weren't a top player in BW, why would you be one for SC2? obviously you're good enough to be a mid-level grandmaster on the NA server, and that's somewhat of an accomplishment, but i dunno. i know this is a vaguely rude thing to say, but i'm sorry, i can't help but be completely mystified by your statements on the matter.
jtp I don't really know where to begin.. you talk about how sad our life is but I somehow doubt you've been to an MLG or any major event. If you have, you'd see the thousands of people traveling across the country and globe to go get 10 seconds of attention from these "sad" people... these sad people who live a comfortable life doing what they love. And it isn't just a few.. it's a bunch of professional players/casters/personalities etc.. all doing what they love. Is everyone guaranteed a living wage and happiness? No, but who is saying they are promised that?
You then go on to ask why I consider myself a top player. Interesting. I don't "assume" anything. By being a GM you are in the top top 1% of all that play. By playing and beating on a regular basis the people that are in the 1% OF the 1% I am a top player. I am not Hero, but I have beaten him and I practice with him as well as others like him.
I have loved starcraft for years, but if someone asked me what I did for fun when i wasn't partying it was always: "I play games, read books, stuff like that you know..... (mumble starcraft)" Sometime last year it became: "I watch and play starcraft 2" To that guy that said what are we supposed to do? say we are nerdy? well.. yeah... you are. what are you fake? Nerdy isnt the word I would choose but I guess its pretty accurate even if it has a negative connotation. If someone calls me nerdy my response usually involves the words "nerd baller". Now when someone looks over my shoulder in the lab or w/e and is like "are you watching starcraft again?" I'm like "yeah this game is awesome listen to the casters going insane" and hand them an earbud.
Inc is right all the little attitudes add up. One of those guys had some friends over to watch MLG on a projector. Maybe I'm responsible for one more person that will show support for starcraft on television. Maybe that person will be responsible for a few themselves. EDIT: + Show Spoiler +
omg jtp -_- there is an entire industry of wealthy people whos soul job is doing exactly what you described. I am sure they have as happy or sad of a life on average as everyone else. Also you really rank religious practice as something more meaningful then helping ESPORTS!? what is the RL use of religious practice?
You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc.
wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf?
when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports.
edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
I wouldn't say it was a sad life at all because if Starcraft were to take off, it creates careers for people. It employs people who otherwise may not be employed in a culture they enjoy. There is no objective meaning to what makes a fulfilling life and what does not. Some people enjoy playing music their entire life, some people enjoy being ministers, some people enjoy selling Tide laundry detergent.
Each have their own way of helping the community and each way is significant to our lives. If someone spent all their time and energy into MLB, I'd think it was noble because it's passionate. MLB is an entertainment escape for a lot of people. If you speak to some people they'll tout off how much they love the game and the deep impact it has had on their lives (I'm one of these people.) That goes for any activity, including Starcraft. You're taking the game at face value of what it just means to your life which is fine, we all have to look through our own lenses. However, Starcraft 2 has the ability to breed analytical thinkers, keep kids relatively engaged in activities in their teenage years and myriad of other helpful attributes in regards to business/consumers.
It's really not anyone's job to determine what is a good use of someone's time, it's theirs. It'd be on par with you being passionate about charity work for Operation Africa Relief and me coming up to you and explaining that it's a dismal life. That Africa doesn't have capital and not very much potential to become a nation that is recognized in global trade, so why are you so passionate about it? I mean, no one will actually remember your efforts in a few years anyway, so why bother? Your response would be that it means something to you because you feel as if you're helping people and making something of your life.
That's essentially what everyone pushing for eSports thinks they are doing as well.
You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc.
wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf?
when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports.
edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... I don't even want to touch on this. Do you shit on people that also love to watch football or go to football games. Do you shit on the college student who works his ass off and makes extreme sacrifices for the slightest chance to go pro in football? Do you HONESTLY believe that none of these players have a future because they were pro gamers? Incontrol, for example, has a college degree (I believe) as well as many players who currently go to college while doing what they do. There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
On November 24 2011 03:17 jtp118 wrote: also, geoff, as long as i have your attention (maybe?); why do you assume that you're a top player who is in a slump? maybe you're just not a top player? you weren't a top player in BW, why would you be one for SC2? obviously you're good enough to be a mid-level grandmaster on the NA server, and that's somewhat of an accomplishment, but i dunno. i know this is a vaguely rude thing to say, but i'm sorry, i can't help but be completely mystified by your statements on the matter.
What has that got to do with anything? Why does everyone take the first opportunity to flame inc..
jtp I don't really know where to begin.. you talk about how sad our life is but I somehow doubt you've been to an MLG or any major event. If you have, you'd see the thousands of people traveling across the country and globe to go get 10 seconds of attention from these "sad" people... these sad people who live a comfortable life doing what they love. And it isn't just a few.. it's a bunch of professional players/casters/personalities etc.. all doing what they love. Is everyone guaranteed a living wage and happiness? No, but who is saying they are promised that?
You then go on to ask why I consider myself a top player. Interesting. I don't "assume" anything. By being a GM you are in the top top 1% of all that play. By playing and beating on a regular basis the people that are in the 1% OF the 1% I am a top player. I am not Hero, but I have beaten him and I practice with him as well as others like him.
i was at MLG DC, albeit only on friday; i was mainly going for halo at that point (though i was becoming somewhat interested in SC2).
thousands of people travel across the world for all sorts of stupid reasons ... again, i feel like an analogy with professional sports will make this clear. if my friend flies to london to watch a tottenham game (which one of my friends actually did, this past weekend), and gets super-excited about meeting one of the players; this is supposed to be an argument that sports/esports is actually meaningful?
and this high-school-graduation-speech nonsense about "doing what you love" ... plenty of people love to read TMZ and Gawker all day. life is not an inspirational speech. sometimes people confuse pleasant, life-consuming addictions to be "doing what you love," especially if they can somehow make some money at it.
not to get too serious, but maybe this is just what happens when a generation is completely unmoored from tradition, virtue, religion, meaning, etc? this excessive all-consuming zeal and passion was once applied to things that actually mattered, and is now funneled entirely into hobbies and trivialities. all of the energy spent on promoting esports could be better spent in some other area of life.
i have a feeling that there aren't too many athletes (electronic or otherwise) who are lying on their deathbed thinking "if only i had devoted more time and energy to promoting esports organizations and their corporate sponsors ..."
* * *
to be clear; you are a top player in the sense of being in the top 0.1% or 0.01%, sure. but i think you know what i meant. getting 22nd three MLGs in a row (and then LBR7 or whatever) means something. machine is a 'top player' in this sense as well, as is demuslim or strifecro ... yet i don't hear any of them talking about how they're just in a slump or will be back in the highest echelon of SC2 any day now. why doesn't EG send machine to homestory cup? why you? you're not in a slump; it's entirely possible that you're just not an absolute top-level player in the sense of huk or idra (and there's no shame in that).
Again jtp, life's objectives aren't yours to decide. What is meaningful to you isn't meaningful to other people. You're arguing a moot point. I'm kind of surprised Geoff even responded because the argument is really weak in comparison to some others made in the blog.
There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial.
i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously.
again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously.
but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post.
There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial.
i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously.
again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously.
but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post.
It's not that it's a founding dogma - you have the rest of the world proving you wrong is the problem. To an outsider of an industry, a lot of the endeavors corporations do are trivial. I don't consider shampoo to be a life changing endeavor yet there are thousands of people (read: employees) who strive to make that product the best it can be and push marketing campaigns to the max to increase market share that do not consider it trivial. If you asked them if they thought their lives' work was trivial, they'd tell you no because they take pride in their work.
People are going to be inspired by what they do if they actually enjoy the culture they're in. I've seen Procter and Gamble executives get excited, inspired and passionate about new laundry detergent commercials. And that model applies to a lot of what is seemingly trivial to the public, but not to the people within that business culture and their loyal consumers/followers.
It's not that anyone has some unrealistic perspective of a trivial activity, it's that what is trivial to you is not an absolute truth. People are passionate about an industry that is receiving more attention than it has in the past and they want to see it succeed. The best way to help that succeed is passion and inspiration. I just think it's strange that people with your type of point of view bother to type a response to a thread that is asking for the complete opposite reaction and then are surprised to be met with disagreement.
one of the dumbest mistakes you could make is that the only things that matter are politics and religion. I can give you a hundred anecdotal examples of where people were touched, inspired or made better by events and activities that you would deem "unworthy." newsflash, find value in everything you do. For many that is their sport, hobby or passion and it could very well be SC2. You are on a SC2 website. You are talking to SC2 enthusiasts. If you are here to tell people to become Priest Politicians in a new wave of value chasing I can tell you that you are wasting your time and if you truly believe the ignorance you are spilling than the issue is not with those that want to make SC2 bigger and better for themselves and everyone around them but rather with the sad lonely little man who is telling people what they are doing has no value and "real life" is all about politics and religion.
That said you are starting to sound like a troll. Mixing your messages with "you aren't as good as idra" as some kind of conversation point has me thinking you just want attention.
Hi there, probably none of you guys know who am I and though I agree with what iNcontrol said, I think that's incomplete.
New ideas, New organizations and new "communities" also need the support from the "faces" of Starcraft 2. Artosis is an example of it. Making it possible for major to go to Korea, Odee from team dignitas believing in KiLLeR, but I have to say that players (That have never stopped playing) don't really understand the eSport market. Organizers like Sundance do, guys like Day9 and JP do, artosis and many others also do understand. But they are limited to the market where they live.
What about the REAL chinese market ? the REAL SEA market ? the REAL Latinamerican market ? the sponsors available, the real costs, the real strengths and opportunities, the real weakness and threats.
My dream is that eSport become as important as soccer, and not like NFL that's only played in the US.
For this to happen the communities needs to expand the market. There are SEA players, Latinamerican players and Chinese players that might never get to be known even if their communities try hard to promote them.
I'm from Latinamerica and the work we try to do here to professionalize eSport is really really complicated. Thank god I can speak and write Spanish, Portuguese and English, to promote myself, my website, the players, the nations, the teams and the awesome support from Blizzard by inviting us to the latinamerican invitational and to the blizzcon, but how many of you guys remember to have seated with a latinamerican guy that understood the market and that it's not a player ? (players don't really understand the market, organizers do, community managers do).
I hope someday to meet most of you guys, I've met Day9 and JP but they were really wasted because they had lots of work and nobody really had time to sit and talk since most of the time we had together was while having breakfast or lunch.
I really liked your post iNcontrol but I just felt that you are supporting the things that already exist and not what can still be created not an "Action plan", just "Actions".
I hope not to be flamed nor be misunderstood, I believe that it's a constructive criticism and I hope to open the eyes of foreigners outside of Latinamerica so they can start supporting ANY latinamerican community (I don't care if you support mine or not as long as you support somebody) like a Norwegian user that created some liquipedias about xelnaga'tour and lasl (Name & logo created in a action plan months before nasl went to air.)
On November 24 2011 04:51 Drakan wrote: Hi there, probably none of you guys know who am I and though I agree with what iNcontrol said, I think that's incomplete.
New ideas, New organizations and new "communities" also need the support from the "faces" of Starcraft 2. Artosis is an example of it. Making it possible for major to go to Korea, Odee from team dignitas believing in KiLLeR, but I have to say that players (That have never stopped playing) don't really understand the eSport market. Organizers like Sundance do, guys like Day9 and JP do, artosis and many others also do understand. But they are limited to the market where they live.
What about the REAL chinese market ? the REAL SEA market ? the REAL Latinamerican market ? the sponsors available, the real costs, the real strengths and opportunities, the real weakness and threats.
My dream is that eSport become as important as soccer, and not like NFL that's only played in the US.
For this to happen the communities needs to expand the market. There are SEA players, Latinamerican players and Chinese players that might never get to be known even if their communities try hard to promote them.
I'm from Latinamerica and the work we try to do here to professionalize eSport is really really complicated. Thank god I can speak and write Spanish, Portuguese and English, to promote myself, my website, the players, the nations, the teams and the awesome support from Blizzard by inviting us to the latinamerican invitational and to the blizzcon, but how many of you guys remember to have seated with a latinamerican guy that understood the market and that it's not a player ? (players don't really understand the market, organizers do, community managers do).
I hope someday to meet most of you guys, I've met Day9 and JP but they were really wasted because they had lots of work and nobody really had time to sit and talk since most of the time we had together was while having breakfast or lunch.
I really liked your post iNcontrol but I just felt that you are supporting the things that already exist and not what can still be created not an "Action plan", just "Actions".
I hope not to be flamed nor be misunderstood, I believe that it's a constructive criticism and I hope to open the eyes of foreigners outside of Latinamerica so they can start supporting ANY latinamerican community (I don't care if you support mine or not as long as you support somebody) like a Norwegian user that created some liquipedias about xelnaga'tour and lasl (Name & logo created in a action plan months before nasl went to air.)
Well I don't see your post as a contrast to mine at all.. I talk about each and every one of us doing what we can to make it better. I don't think you need to criticize me or JP or anyone else for not taking a random special interest in Latin America. We are working within our own communities and our own knowledge base to improve what we can.. why not you do the same? Is there a big LA personality? Is there a community? If so talk to them! Do your part.. if not, make one, find one or do something. Why is it up to Artosis and crew to make it possible for everyone everywhere? They are trying.. but why sit back and complain about how they aren't doing enough when you have the power to pave the way?
On November 24 2011 04:51 Drakan wrote: Hi there, probably none of you guys know who am I and though I agree with what iNcontrol said, I think that's incomplete.
New ideas, New organizations and new "communities" also need the support from the "faces" of Starcraft 2. Artosis is an example of it. Making it possible for major to go to Korea, Odee from team dignitas believing in KiLLeR, but I have to say that players (That have never stopped playing) don't really understand the eSport market. Organizers like Sundance do, guys like Day9 and JP do, artosis and many others also do understand. But they are limited to the market where they live.
What about the REAL chinese market ? the REAL SEA market ? the REAL Latinamerican market ? the sponsors available, the real costs, the real strengths and opportunities, the real weakness and threats.
My dream is that eSport become as important as soccer, and not like NFL that's only played in the US.
For this to happen the communities needs to expand the market. There are SEA players, Latinamerican players and Chinese players that might never get to be known even if their communities try hard to promote them.
I'm from Latinamerica and the work we try to do here to professionalize eSport is really really complicated. Thank god I can speak and write Spanish, Portuguese and English, to promote myself, my website, the players, the nations, the teams and the awesome support from Blizzard by inviting us to the latinamerican invitational and to the blizzcon, but how many of you guys remember to have seated with a latinamerican guy that understood the market and that it's not a player ? (players don't really understand the market, organizers do, community managers do).
I hope someday to meet most of you guys, I've met Day9 and JP but they were really wasted because they had lots of work and nobody really had time to sit and talk since most of the time we had together was while having breakfast or lunch.
I really liked your post iNcontrol but I just felt that you are supporting the things that already exist and not what can still be created not an "Action plan", just "Actions".
I hope not to be flamed nor be misunderstood, I believe that it's a constructive criticism and I hope to open the eyes of foreigners outside of Latinamerica so they can start supporting ANY latinamerican community (I don't care if you support mine or not as long as you support somebody) like a Norwegian user that created some liquipedias about xelnaga'tour and lasl (Name & logo created in a action plan months before nasl went to air.)
Well I don't see your post as a contrast to mine at all.. I talk about each and every one of us doing what we can to make it better. I don't think you need to criticize me or JP or anyone else for not taking a random special interest in Latin America. We are working within our own communities and our own knowledge base to improve what we can.. why not you do the same? Is there a big LA personality? Is there a community? If so talk to them! Do your part.. if not, make one, find one or do something. Why is it up to Artosis and crew to make it possible for everyone everywhere? They are trying.. but why sit back and complain about how they aren't doing enough when you have the power to pave the way?
Mmmm, I'll try to make a point here, Day9, state of the game, select, huk, djwheat, and many others youtube/stream programs have even more fans in Latinamerica than the latinamerican players/programs themselves.
And yeah! Of course we are trying to do our part . We really really are but it's not that easy since there a lots of countries that are really far away and the venues can't be shared, flight tickets are expensive, distances are huge. Thank god the lag ain't such a big issue in SC2 as it is in any other game (Try to play CS, or MvC3 online between latinamerican countries).
I understand your point there but why I'm trying to say is that communities should work together and leave apart that idea of "I do it my way, you do it your way".
Maybe I'm beeing to harsh on you and I haven't tried enough to get in touch with guys like you or like many others to appear in shows, interviews or programs made for the latinamerican audience. Worldwide SC2 personalities really help to promote eSport in places were the seed is still growing, even if they don't actively/directly support it, and from time to time a little boost wouldn't be bad at all.
Maybe I'm thinking too soon about this and maybe the latinamerican communities need to grow bigger and bigger to get noticed. I hope to do it right then but as soon as any other big tournament comes to LA they will have all my support.
The SC2 community have something very interesting that other games don't and it's the globalization level it has achieved because players from all over the world can actually play each other without big lag issues. So the community must also try to think in a globalized way (rofl, does globalized exist?). damn i gotta go so I hope to continue this conversation later. I still think that the best chance for SC2 to become bigger than it is is to cooperate the same way that the Koreans decided to start leaving Korea, and maybe, just maybe, the best choice is to have North Americans in LA than Koreans in LA. If someday something like MLG+GSL happens.
And for sure, there are many other regions in the world were this kind of stuff could help to boost eSport worldwide making it even a bigger scene for the players, casters, eSport organizations and also the sponsors like Razer that sell their products all over the globe.
enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial.
football is trivial too, but people get multi million dollar contracts to throw a ball around a field. there are many other trivial hobbies out there. chess is trivial. so is poker. so is playing in a band. so is writing fiction. so is hitting a baseball. the list goes on and on. people have hobbies they are passionate about and devote their time to them, there is nothing wrong with that.
Great post, I have thought about and done some of the things that were talked about in the OP. I study digital production/graphic design so maybe I will create something in the future(Mini-game with Incontrol bearfighting maybe?).
I agree with basically everything in the post but I'm not so sure about when esports will be on stadiums, on tv etc. I think it will take a while to get there. I think a big part of it will be about getting a lot of people from future generations into the scene. Being a dreamer is nice but I don't like getting my hopes up too high I guess.
Also, reading about that guy who got hired because he improved those Youtube pages makes me think that there should be a place where everyone in the community can offer their work for free(or not). Just a thread or a site where people can post what they could do and some of their work and etc. Would be easier for a player/team/league to get help with their stream page or whatever.
There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial.
i sincerely wasn't trying to troll the thread, but maybe just trying to ask people to step back and be more enthusiastic about areas of life that really matter (which applies to myself as well, perhaps). there is a very strong tendency in esports, especially in 2011, to take all of this way too seriously.
again, not to get super-serious or to sound like i'm lecturing, but if you're ever asking yourself "how can i contribute?", you should be thinking of how you can contribute to something that actually matters. yes, everyone needs leisure, everyone needs to relax; i watched mlg for most of this past weekend. but when it comes to using my limited energy/life/time, there are a billion more worthy candidates for my enthusiasm than a small group of corporations and their sponsored players and advertising partners. i'm just asking people to have perspective, and to stop taking a trivial activity so seriously.
but since the founding dogma of all internet conversations is that no one has the right to tell anyone else what to do, ever, because there is no possible objective standard beyond whatever trivial activity makes you feel good (or, euphemistically, "what you love"), i guess, feel free to ignore this post.
Supporting the growth of SC2 as an esport doesn't mean people can't be active members in their communities in other ways. It isn't a zero sum game where you have to choose one or the other.
Gaming brings a lot of joy to people's lives. It's a great way to challenge yourself, meet new people, and be entertained. It is a valuable culture, and I understand why people who love it want to spread it to others.
enjoyment is fine ... growing esports is fine. i think i was more disturbed by the "inspirational" tone of geoff's post and of a thousand other esports related videos/articles (i.e., day9's #100 daily), the inflated sense of the importance of esports, the sense that way too many people are devoting way too much of their time to something that is, by any objective standard, trivial.
football is trivial too, but people get multi million dollar contracts to throw a ball around a field. there are many other trivial hobbies out there. chess is trivial. so is poker. so is playing in a band. so is writing fiction. so is hitting a baseball. the list goes on and on. people have hobbies they are passionate about and devote their time to them, there is nothing wrong with that.
so kindly pls stfu and die in a fire kthxbai
You were making a decent point, but then you had to go ruin it by throwing in that last sentence.
A part of me wants to embrace what you are saying wholeheartedly.. Another part of me feels like you've outlined all possible avenues of player revenue with almost a desperation that this bubble may burst one day.. Players making 6 figure incomes is kind of a scary idea to me.. It's not like a pro sport where physical limitations can exclude someone from the arena of starcraft 2.. There is no optimal level of intelligence needed to play this game at it's highest level i.e Naniwa. I'm with you on certain things but hopefully this works out the way you hope it does sir.. Best of luck in all future endeavors..
You've completely romanticized what is a consumer-based enterprise. Video games should be treated as hobbies, not lifestyles. Says who? Says me, different opinion. We should not eat-sleep-breathe starcraft to the extreme that we are headed towards.
Look how excited and empowered all of you are! Yeah! Wouldn't it be great if you had this enthusiasm about other aspects of your lives? Oh well.
i'm somewhat surprised that i actually agree with this ... try to imagine, if you will, someone who spent all of their energy/enthusiasm promoting major league baseball, contacting mlb advertising sponsors, offering services for teams and their websites, spending all their time posting on forums in ridiculous messianic terms about "the greatness of mlb", "let's get passionate about mlb", etc.
wouldn't you say that this person had a somewhat sad life? a life where energy and enthusiasm are devoted to literally the most trivial activity imaginable? instead of actually doing something important or meaningful (art, political action, religious practice, charity work) ... devoting all of your energy to a "passion for esports!", i.e., helping a few corporations make more money off of a video game? i like playing SC2 occasionally, and i watch most of the major SC2 events, but wtf?
when i watch day9's daily #100, or listen to artosis talking about dropping out of four colleges and playing BW on iCCup all day ... i mean, i hate to sound like everyone's parents, but this is not a complete or fulfilling life. it is a pathetic life. the fact that a handful of these people managed to find enough corporate sponsorships (through GSL, EG, etc.) to eke out a living is nice, i guess, but let's not pretend that there's anything "great" about esports.
edit: and before someone jumps in with, "it's all about relationships!" or "it's about the community!", you realize that just about every human endeavor has a community aspect, right? you don't need esports to have meaningful relationships
Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... I don't even want to touch on this. Do you shit on people that also love to watch football or go to football games. Do you shit on the college student who works his ass off and makes extreme sacrifices for the slightest chance to go pro in football? Do you HONESTLY believe that none of these players have a future because they were pro gamers? Incontrol, for example, has a college degree (I believe) as well as many players who currently go to college while doing what they do. There is an industry because we make it one, people like watching MLG just like some people love watching the football game on monday night and so on. What your saying seems to me like you introduce the idea that no one should enjoy themselves if its not directly productive. Everyone in this world has something they care about whether its esports, football, or flying fucking kites. I am glad you have a life you enjoy and don't believe that this would be for you so does that mean its for no one...?
Please shed some light in your thought process other then shit on this and shit on pros. You said it yourself you watch Starcraft, so do I... So does this amazing community... Why not help it grow... He doesn't say sacrifice your life for the good of e-sports.. He says IF you WANT to help, this is how.
Something meaningful like political action and religious practice.... GAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA omg, i'm going to hurt myself. meaningful .. religion ... *wipes eyes*
Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
On November 24 2011 04:45 iNcontroL wrote: one of the dumbest mistakes you could make is that the only things that matter are politics and religion. I can give you a hundred anecdotal examples of where people were touched, inspired or made better by events and activities that you would deem "unworthy."
the issue is not with those that want to make SC2 bigger and better for themselves and everyone around them but rather with the sad lonely little man who is telling people what they are doing has no value and "real life" is all about politics and religion.
you're the one trolling at this point, my friend. "sad lonely little man"? right, that's it!
being an otaku for SC is a waste of life, full stop. real life is about responsibility, meaningful action, and hard work; politics, religion, and art were just examples ... obviously i was referring to any sort of activity that makes some sort of meaningful change in the world (teaching, medicine, charity work, etc etc); any career that actually does something, as opposed to playing a video game for corporate sponsors and providing trivial entertainment.
the fact that playing a video game can somehow occasionally accidentally inspire someone isn't a counter-argument. this reminds me of the people at the GDC who always feel compelled to throw in something about how video games can "change the world", where, actually, the engineers creating these games could change the world by leaving the video game industry and using their skills to actually do something meaningful. people are going to be inspired by terrible pop music, and touched by relationships and community for absolutely anything; starcraft is not the cause, but an accidental environment where this might occasionally happen ... it does not justify the triviality of esports.
i repeat; for anyone reading this thread, instead of getting 'inspired' about spreading the word for SC2, and geeking out with fanboy bull****, get inspired to spread the word for something that actually matters; get out and actually help someone, volunteer somewhere, and stop wasting your time pressing F5 on liquipedia or the TL front page. esports is trivial entertainment, and should not be the focus of your energy/time in any way, shape, or form.
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
a hobby is fine ... speaking in messianic quasi-religious terms about the greatness and magical perfect community of your rowing team or crocheting circle is effing ridiculous. asking yourself every day, 'what have i done to spread the word about crocheting? am i doing enough?', might literally be insane.
i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life; it actually is about what you do. i mean, of course, not everyone is going to have an archetypally meaningful job (i work at a think tank, i'd say it's relatively meaningful, but i'm not changing the world), but my passion in life is not directed toward a trivial hobby. if i'm getting 'inspired' about anything, it's about meaningful activity (and not just in my career).
it actually is about what you do. you should not be proud of crocheting for 12 hours a day. you simply should not. you should be mildly embarrassed that your life is so consumed with crocheting. just because someone like Day9 is so "super-gosh-darned enthusiastic!" about everything, that this is 'how' he is super-passionate about BW/SC2, well, this is an objectively trivial thing to be passionate about.
Day9 is like an anime roleplaying otaku on Gaia Online who uploads vlogs every day and spends all of his time going to anime conventions, posting about anime; this is what Day9 is. should i get 'inspired' to spread the world about this beautiful activity, anime roleplaying? or isn't this objectively trivial?
29 year old has everything figured out... wants everyone to not care about their passions/hobbies on a STARCRAFT II website.
hey mr value.. if you aren't a giant hypocrite what are you doing on a website wasting time? By your logic couldn't your time be best spent on a website with .gov at the end of it? Shouldn't you be changing the world or something? You hate my passionate tone in my OP yet I see the same type of language here where you try and save us from our own pleasures lol
You must be fairly lonely if you keep revisiting the blog to post the exact opposite reaction of what is being asked for. It'd be one thing if Geoff asked for people to provide skepticism of what he asked. You aren't reinforcing much of a point. I think everyone who views the thread gets it. You think eSports is trivial, you think what you do is more important and you can't get past the point of subjectivity to what people take pride in.
Like I said before, people find pride in creating marketing campaigns for laundry detergent. There's a time and place for all activities and the triviality of them is subjective. Instead of trying to spread the word of skepticism and eSports being trivial to you (and apparently should be to everyone else); why not spend your energy doing something actually productive like you tout you do often and so eloquently have asked Geoff to do? You're standing on the wrong soapbox in the wrong venue, lol. It's bizarre and ironic.
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
a hobby is fine ... speaking in messianic quasi-religious terms about the greatness and magical perfect community of your rowing team or crocheting circle is effing ridiculous. asking yourself every day, 'what have i done to spread the word about crocheting? am i doing enough?', might literally be insane.
i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life; it actually is about what you do. i mean, of course, not everyone is going to have an archetypally meaningful job (i work at a think tank, i'd say it's relatively meaningful, but i'm not changing the world), but my passion in life is not directed toward a trivial hobby. if i'm getting 'inspired' about anything, it's about meaningful activity (and not just in my career).
it actually is about what you do. you should not be proud of crocheting for 12 hours a day. you simply should not. you should be mildly embarrassed that your life is so consumed with crocheting. just because someone like Day9 is so "super-gosh-darned enthusiastic!" about everything, that this is 'how' he is super-passionate about BW/SC2, well, this is an objectively trivial thing to be passionate about.
Day9 is like an anime roleplaying otaku on Gaia Online who uploads vlogs every day and spends all of his time going to anime conventions, posting about anime; this is what Day9 is. should i get 'inspired' to spread the world about this beautiful activity, anime roleplaying? or isn't this objectively trivial?
Calling it Crocheting is telling me a lot about how you view the matter. Let's take Boxer for example, how many people are inspired and motivated by Boxer's performance and hardworkship? He is a symbol and icon for Esport, and just like any other culture, is formed because of people interested and passionate about it, they gather around and becomes something bigger. Are you still going to call him "crocheting"? Fans, Casters, Players, everyone of us are part of this community, there is nothing wrong to promote what we love about it.
and no, it isn't about what you do, but about how you do things. How you feel Meaningful, how you feel embarrassed is a personal opinion. You can't tell anyone they should feel ashame just because you think they should, it doesn't work like that.
Please don't insult anyone who is actually doing something meaningful just because you can't see it that way.
And your example of Day9 as an anime roleplaying otaku is just laughable. He is so much more than an otaku obviously.
Oh lol, I just now read these posts that jtp has been making O_O.. Why are you here again? On the most dedicated, largest Starcraft and possibly eSports community on the web?
But, uh yeah guys, damn you for having interests that you are passionate about! damn you all to hell! Did you hear how old this guy is?! 29! Step aside, WW2 veterans, this guy knows what life's about.
Telling people to tweet, subscribe, blabla to the companies supporting eSports is great, but asking them to buy and consume the sponsors products is just laughable. Like you don't already make enough money yourself (geoff) out of this game, doing something that's fun and making any money at all should be good enough. I mean how much money does your teammate idra make from streaming? or huskystarcraft from a youtube video? it's absurd amounts for what they actually do. Though, greg is actually an insanely hardworking guy and talented starcraft player, so he deserves it. But it's pushing it when frankly untalented, poor players are thriving on it.
Nobody on this site doesn't want more tournaments, leagues, teams, but I just can't justify that people should be making such money out of this game already, when a guy like Stephano who practices for 4 hours a day can win how much he has in such a short time. I mean, i'm actually curious how much a player like lzgamer/machine, and yourself etc make, because if they can live off it there's some serious issues here
I don't mean to bring up your own team as an example, but found it fitting since you're posting this blog. I'm fairly certain replies to this will be "he's simply trying to help the game grow" "clearly an EG/incontrol hater" or something of the sort, but this is actually how i read the blog, and i'm not a sheep who simply posts what the majority may or may not believe because that's cool. Take a hard opinion, and but having watched the egostic views you show on your stream, it just screams "throw money into sc2 so pro gamers can buy fast cars!"
TLDR; When Jaedong plays for EG, i'll buy a monster energy drink
On November 26 2011 11:03 Fojji wrote: Actually a bit sickening to read this
Telling people to tweet, subscribe, blabla to the companies supporting eSports is great, but asking them to buy and consume the sponsors products is just laughable. Like you don't already make enough money yourself (geoff) out of this game, doing something that's fun and making any money at all should be good enough. I mean how much money does your teammate idra make from streaming? or huskystarcraft from a youtube video? it's absurd amounts for what they actually do. Though, greg is actually an insanely hardworking guy and talented starcraft player, so he deserves it. But it's pushing it when frankly untalented, poor players are thriving on it.
Nobody on this site doesn't want more tournaments, leagues, teams, but I just can't justify that people should be making such money out of this game already, when a guy like Stephano who practices for 4 hours a day can win how much he has in such a short time. I mean, i'm actually curious how much a player like lzgamer/machine, and yourself etc make, because if they can live off it there's some serious issues here
I don't mean to bring up your own team as an example, but found it fitting since you're posting this blog. I'm fairly certain replies to this will be "he's simply trying to help the game grow" "clearly an EG/incontrol hater" or something of the sort, but this is actually how i read the blog, and i'm not a sheep who simply posts what the majority may or may not believe because that's cool. Take a hard opinion, and but having watched the egostic views you show on your stream, it just screams "throw money into sc2 so pro gamers can buy fast cars!"
TLDR; When Jaedong plays for EG, i'll buy a monster energy drink
Your second paragraph is why you should be supporting it. The fact Geoff makes money off of it is a moot point. It's a pretty simple process. You show companies that supporting these teams is increasing their revenues and creating a worthwhile industry to support, you get to reap the benefits of spectating it.
If these companies are dumping money into supporting tournaments, making customized products and sponsoring teams/players, but see no revenues increasing and the community supporting it - they strip funding. It's simple as that.
On November 26 2011 11:03 Fojji wrote: Actually a bit sickening to read this
Telling people to tweet, subscribe, blabla to the companies supporting eSports is great, but asking them to buy and consume the sponsors products is just laughable. Like you don't already make enough money yourself (geoff) out of this game, doing something that's fun and making any money at all should be good enough. I mean how much money does your teammate idra make from streaming? or huskystarcraft from a youtube video? it's absurd amounts for what they actually do. Though, greg is actually an insanely hardworking guy and talented starcraft player, so he deserves it. But it's pushing it when frankly untalented, poor players are thriving on it.
Nobody on this site doesn't want more tournaments, leagues, teams, but I just can't justify that people should be making such money out of this game already, when a guy like Stephano who practices for 4 hours a day can win how much he has in such a short time. I mean, i'm actually curious how much a player like lzgamer/machine, and yourself etc make, because if they can live off it there's some serious issues here
I don't mean to bring up your own team as an example, but found it fitting since you're posting this blog. I'm fairly certain replies to this will be "he's simply trying to help the game grow" "clearly an EG/incontrol hater" or something of the sort, but this is actually how i read the blog, and i'm not a sheep who simply posts what the majority may or may not believe because that's cool. Take a hard opinion, and but having watched the egostic views you show on your stream, it just screams "throw money into sc2 so pro gamers can buy fast cars!"
TLDR; When Jaedong plays for EG, i'll buy a monster energy drink
BJ Penn made millions of dollars in MMA training 1-2 hours a day. If you have natural talent then you have it.
On November 26 2011 11:03 Fojji wrote: Actually a bit sickening to read this
Telling people to tweet, subscribe, blabla to the companies supporting eSports is great, but asking them to buy and consume the sponsors products is just laughable. Like you don't already make enough money yourself (geoff) out of this game, doing something that's fun and making any money at all should be good enough. I mean how much money does your teammate idra make from streaming? or huskystarcraft from a youtube video? it's absurd amounts for what they actually do. Though, greg is actually an insanely hardworking guy and talented starcraft player, so he deserves it. But it's pushing it when frankly untalented, poor players are thriving on it.
Nobody on this site doesn't want more tournaments, leagues, teams, but I just can't justify that people should be making such money out of this game already, when a guy like Stephano who practices for 4 hours a day can win how much he has in such a short time. I mean, i'm actually curious how much a player like lzgamer/machine, and yourself etc make, because if they can live off it there's some serious issues here
I don't mean to bring up your own team as an example, but found it fitting since you're posting this blog. I'm fairly certain replies to this will be "he's simply trying to help the game grow" "clearly an EG/incontrol hater" or something of the sort, but this is actually how i read the blog, and i'm not a sheep who simply posts what the majority may or may not believe because that's cool. Take a hard opinion, and but having watched the egostic views you show on your stream, it just screams "throw money into sc2 so pro gamers can buy fast cars!"
TLDR; When Jaedong plays for EG, i'll buy a monster energy drink
I almost replied to this.. instead I think I will just quote it in case you sober up and realize how dumb you are.
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
a hobby is fine ... speaking in messianic quasi-religious terms about the greatness and magical perfect community of your rowing team or crocheting circle is effing ridiculous. asking yourself every day, 'what have i done to spread the word about crocheting? am i doing enough?', might literally be insane.
i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life; it actually is about what you do. i mean, of course, not everyone is going to have an archetypally meaningful job (i work at a think tank, i'd say it's relatively meaningful, but i'm not changing the world), but my passion in life is not directed toward a trivial hobby. if i'm getting 'inspired' about anything, it's about meaningful activity (and not just in my career).
it actually is about what you do. you should not be proud of crocheting for 12 hours a day. you simply should not. you should be mildly embarrassed that your life is so consumed with crocheting. just because someone like Day9 is so "super-gosh-darned enthusiastic!" about everything, that this is 'how' he is super-passionate about BW/SC2, well, this is an objectively trivial thing to be passionate about.
Day9 is like an anime roleplaying otaku on Gaia Online who uploads vlogs every day and spends all of his time going to anime conventions, posting about anime; this is what Day9 is. should i get 'inspired' to spread the world about this beautiful activity, anime roleplaying? or isn't this objectively trivial?
What I think Incontrol and others are trying to say is
CHEESY but awesome. But no, it's not what you do. What people do is not in and of itself important. Our actions are only important if we recognize them as being so, we give our own actions our own meaning. That is just the nature of culture. Being an e-sports fanatic is only something to be embarrassed about if it embarrasses you. And fuck you, anime is awesome.
Being 29 and having a career doesn't mean you've solved the multi-millennial quest for the ultimate meaning of life.
edit: GOD it embedded the whole thing I just wanted a time stamp link. There should be fixed.
Many look down upon gamers, and so do I. Because many gamers are sole consumers, much like many otakus (if not the immense majority in this case) consume mangas and animes just to forget about how pathetic their life is in their eyes.
However, I agree a 100% with Incontrol. Because this is different. This is a call for action. Being just here to play games is a limited attitude. It's using games as a way to numb yourself from what's difficult in your life. But taking part in the community, and living this not as a hobby, not as an addiction, not as a passion but as a lifestyle, now THAT is something worth a lot of respect. It's about expressing yourself and giving back to people. It's about thinking back about what you do, trying to expand and support what fascinates you. It's a step towards being a better human being.
I'm completely sure that a person who's active about his passions in life in a way that actively involves him with the community will be a better person all around. He will care more about people, he will care more about the world. He will look outside and smile at others. THIS is what people like Day9 or progamers do.
One can always say, like that silly think-tank wanabee up here, that some causes are more important than others. Well, guess what? The world is 7 billions strong. To deny variety and the right to love what you love is a crime and the first step towards a totalitarian way of thinking.
I believe that games are big. I believe that they will a big part of future societies. So let's make sure now that everything is headed the way we want it. All of those naysayers who are unable to understand the shifts that are taking place in culture and society, and the global acceleration launched by the industrial revolution, will just be left behind.
On November 28 2011 10:34 Kukaracha wrote: Many look down upon gamers, and so do I. Because many gamers are sole consumers, much like many otakus (if not the immense majority in this case) consume mangas and animes just to forget about how pathetic their life is in their eyes.
However, I agree a 100% with Incontrol. Because this is different. This is a call for action. Being just here to play games is a limited attitude. It's using games as a way to numb yourself from what's difficult in your life. But taking part in the community, and living this not as a hobby, not as an addiction, not as a passion but as a lifestyle, now THAT is something worth a lot of respect. It's about expressing yourself and giving back to people. It's about thinking back about what you do, trying to expand and support what fascinates you. It's a step towards being a better human being.
I'm completely sure that a person who's active about his passions in life in a way that actively involves him with the community will be a better person all around. He will care more about people, he will care more about the world. He will look outside and smile at others. THIS is what people like Day9 or progamers do.
One can always say, like that silly think-tank wanabee up here, that some causes are more important than others. Well, guess what? The world is 7 billions strong. To deny variety and the right to love what you love is a crime and the first step towards a totalitarian way of thinking.
I believe that games are big. I believe that they will a big part of future societies. So let's make sure now that everything is headed the way we want it. All of those naysayers who are unable to understand the shifts that are taking place in culture and society, and the global acceleration launched by the industrial revolution, will just be left behind.
You probably didn’t see me but I watched a lot of your MLG Anaheim matches in person. I even strained my eyes to watch several of your matches off the main stage. You had a very good run and bested several of the greatest Starcraft players in the world. I was even in the crowd on Saturday night chanting “White Ra, White Ra!” after your win against Drewbie.
I really didn’t follow you as a player until a few weeks after MLG Anaheim. I saw you do an interview for a documentary movie called StarNation. You started talking about how you used to get mad at yourself for losing a match. Then you said 4 words that have stayed with me and the community ever since; “more gg, more skill.” You explained that you see losses as an opportunity to “understand your mistake” and that losing was “no problem”. I took your words to heart and suddenly my losing streaks didn’t feel like these horrible treks through Mordor. Quite the contrary; much like you I started seeing losses as a chance to improve my game. I practiced and honed my skills and now I play at a top 8 Platinum level which roughly makes me better than 1 out of every 6 players in North America.
Unfortunately, I didn’t take things like work, college, blogging, and my personal health as seriously as I have taken my Starcraft game. I always quit things wayyy before I should and rarely put in a solid effort at being successful at something. Then a giant flash of light went off in my brain like a Hellion’s Blue Flame. “I’m not Idra; I don’t just quit things because they seem hard or impossible. In all my ladder games I fight until I can’t fight anymore. That’s who I am. Why should my personal life be any different?”
I started viewing many of my goals as Favored Opponents. I had lost my matchup against losing weight, studying hard, and consistently blogging many times. I decided I was going to face these opponents again, but after every time I failed I would sit down, figure out why I failed, “and try and fix it and it’s no problem.”
Since applying the WhiteRa approach to Starcraft to my personal life I have lost 10 lbs. and my weight is steadily dropping. I exercise 3-5 times a week and sometimes more. I have even done something I thought I never could do, I blogged for 13 hours on a Saturday! I thought I would never have the self-discipline to work when nobody was threatening to fire me. But as it turns out, I do. Even though I have had to say GG many times in my personal life the past couple months I am still moving forward; learning from my mistakes and fixing “my game” so to speak.
Thank you for your encouraging words WhiteRa. WhiteRa, without you I would probably still be gaining weight, failing school, and dare I say it, playing far too much Starcraft. You are an icon in the Starcraft community and I hope you are here for the long haul. GG WhiteRa.
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life
Imo, believing you have a good understanding of life is an indicator that you really don't.
On November 25 2011 12:48 Primadog wrote: Pointing out that eSports is trivial benigns the fact that pretty much all we do are trivial, jtp118. Very few jobs or careers or hobbies relates strictly to the survival of our species or ourselves. You'll learn in life, eventually, that it's not about what you do, but how you do things. Day9 and iNcontroL are not respected here because they're good player or caster, but because the attitude they held about their interest. If their work is about a different hobby, be it rowing or crocheting, they'll still be respected and recognized by people of shared interest because they're so into it, so proud of it.
Get over that hump. You don't need to hide your power level, be proud of eSports.
a hobby is fine ... speaking in messianic quasi-religious terms about the greatness and magical perfect community of your rowing team or crocheting circle is effing ridiculous. asking yourself every day, 'what have i done to spread the word about crocheting? am i doing enough?', might literally be insane.
i'm 29, i've learned a fair amount about life; it actually is about what you do. i mean, of course, not everyone is going to have an archetypally meaningful job (i work at a think tank, i'd say it's relatively meaningful, but i'm not changing the world), but my passion in life is not directed toward a trivial hobby. if i'm getting 'inspired' about anything, it's about meaningful activity (and not just in my career).
it actually is about what you do. you should not be proud of crocheting for 12 hours a day. you simply should not. you should be mildly embarrassed that your life is so consumed with crocheting. just because someone like Day9 is so "super-gosh-darned enthusiastic!" about everything, that this is 'how' he is super-passionate about BW/SC2, well, this is an objectively trivial thing to be passionate about.
Day9 is like an anime roleplaying otaku on Gaia Online who uploads vlogs every day and spends all of his time going to anime conventions, posting about anime; this is what Day9 is. should i get 'inspired' to spread the world about this beautiful activity, anime roleplaying? or isn't this objectively trivial?
Agree with your posts completely. Unfortunately the prevalence of existentialism among our generation makes it easy to bury your head in the sand and pretend that what you're doing is important. It's not a philosophy I necessarily disagree with either (that is, existentialism), it's the way people apply it... ie spending their most valuable years on activities which benefit virtually nobody other than themselves.
Anyway, I don't wanna take this off topic. I just thought I'd chip in and say you're not the only one on TL who thinks the way you do
On November 28 2011 12:52 NuclearStorm wrote:I started viewing many of my goals as Favored Opponents. I had lost my matchup against losing weight, studying hard, and consistently blogging many times. I decided I was going to face these opponents again, but after every time I failed I would sit down, figure out why I failed, “and try and fix it and it’s no problem.”
Since applying the WhiteRa approach to Starcraft to my personal life I have lost 10 lbs. and my weight is steadily dropping. I exercise 3-5 times a week and sometimes more. I have even done something I thought I never could do, I blogged for 13 hours on a Saturday! I thought I would never have the self-discipline to work when nobody was threatening to fire me. But as it turns out, I do. Even though I have had to say GG many times in my personal life the past couple months I am still moving forward; learning from my mistakes and fixing
Yup, there are two ways of looking at life. You either press that Find Match button again, or you don't and spend your time thinking about what would've happened if you did. You only lose when your to scared to to press that button.
I'm saddened that you believe love is objectively trivial.
I think it's interesting to consider that everything you do, is in the end, trivial. You talk about objectivity, but from what i can see you are missing it in the majority of your statements.
I personally don't think that inspiration is valueless. Music, poetry, painting, writing, and crocheting are all without a direct quantifiable value to something like climbing a mountain. I can't climb a ladder made from insightfull stanzas and extra yarn to get to the top of a mountain, but reading something written from the summit can give me the strength to get to the top.
Last year, at 21 years old, I became the youngest person to ever work nationally for my company. I have delivered hundreds of presentations to thousands of people on dozens of topics, and some of the best career advice / inspiration I have ever gotten is from watching Geoff and Sean. Being proud of the things that I love, learning to deal with difficult people, and seeing that enthusiasm is undeniably infectious have been invaluable in my growth as a person.
On November 24 2011 04:45 iNcontroL wrote: one of the dumbest mistakes you could make is that the only things that matter are politics and religion. I can give you a hundred anecdotal examples of where people were touched, inspired or made better by events and activities that you would deem "unworthy."
the issue is not with those that want to make SC2 bigger and better for themselves and everyone around them but rather with the sad lonely little man who is telling people what they are doing has no value and "real life" is all about politics and religion.
you're the one trolling at this point, my friend. "sad lonely little man"? right, that's it!
being an otaku for SC is a waste of life, full stop. real life is about responsibility, meaningful action, and hard work; politics, religion, and art were just examples ... obviously i was referring to any sort of activity that makes some sort of meaningful change in the world (teaching, medicine, charity work, etc etc); any career that actually does something, as opposed to playing a video game for corporate sponsors and providing trivial entertainment.
the fact that playing a video game can somehow occasionally accidentally inspire someone isn't a counter-argument. this reminds me of the people at the GDC who always feel compelled to throw in something about how video games can "change the world", where, actually, the engineers creating these games could change the world by leaving the video game industry and using their skills to actually do something meaningful. people are going to be inspired by terrible pop music, and touched by relationships and community for absolutely anything; starcraft is not the cause, but an accidental environment where this might occasionally happen ... it does not justify the triviality of esports.
i repeat; for anyone reading this thread, instead of getting 'inspired' about spreading the word for SC2, and geeking out with fanboy bull****, get inspired to spread the word for something that actually matters; get out and actually help someone, volunteer somewhere, and stop wasting your time pressing F5 on liquipedia or the TL front page. esports is trivial entertainment, and should not be the focus of your energy/time in any way, shape, or form.
Holy hell it's people like you that truly piss me off. You desreguard any good thing anything does that you find to mean nothing. SC2 an esports has done the world no good? Are you joking or trolling either im assuming you're doing. We have players like TLO and such who have done 24 hours streams of them just playing then donating any income from that stream to charity such as Doctor's Without Boarders which is an amazing charity that provides the world more good then Words can describe. Also another example of this the recent Rumble in the Bronze 2 which InControl helped cast which all money again went to charity. The charity for that one the name eludes me but it provides video games to terminally sick children who have nothing to look forward to but laying in a hospital bed all day everyday waiting an hoping that they'll actually get better. So before you come in spewing your self rightous baddle pelase study up on what you're about to bash please.
On November 24 2011 04:45 iNcontroL wrote: one of the dumbest mistakes you could make is that the only things that matter are politics and religion. I can give you a hundred anecdotal examples of where people were touched, inspired or made better by events and activities that you would deem "unworthy."
the issue is not with those that want to make SC2 bigger and better for themselves and everyone around them but rather with the sad lonely little man who is telling people what they are doing has no value and "real life" is all about politics and religion.
you're the one trolling at this point, my friend. "sad lonely little man"? right, that's it!
being an otaku for SC is a waste of life, full stop. real life is about responsibility, meaningful action, and hard work; politics, religion, and art were just examples ... obviously i was referring to any sort of activity that makes some sort of meaningful change in the world (teaching, medicine, charity work, etc etc); any career that actually does something, as opposed to playing a video game for corporate sponsors and providing trivial entertainment.
the fact that playing a video game can somehow occasionally accidentally inspire someone isn't a counter-argument. this reminds me of the people at the GDC who always feel compelled to throw in something about how video games can "change the world", where, actually, the engineers creating these games could change the world by leaving the video game industry and using their skills to actually do something meaningful. people are going to be inspired by terrible pop music, and touched by relationships and community for absolutely anything; starcraft is not the cause, but an accidental environment where this might occasionally happen ... it does not justify the triviality of esports.
i repeat; for anyone reading this thread, instead of getting 'inspired' about spreading the word for SC2, and geeking out with fanboy bull****, get inspired to spread the word for something that actually matters; get out and actually help someone, volunteer somewhere, and stop wasting your time pressing F5 on liquipedia or the TL front page. esports is trivial entertainment, and should not be the focus of your energy/time in any way, shape, or form.
Holy hell it's people like you that truly piss me off. You desreguard any good thing anything does that you find to mean nothing. SC2 an esports has done the world no good? Are you joking or trolling either im assuming you're doing. We have players like TLO and such who have done 24 hours streams of them just playing then donating any income from that stream to charity such as Doctor's Without Boarders which is an amazing charity that provides the world more good then Words can describe. Also another example of this the recent Rumble in the Bronze 2 which InControl helped cast which all money again went to charity. The charity for that one the name eludes me but it provides video games to terminally sick children who have nothing to look forward to but laying in a hospital bed all day everyday waiting an hoping that they'll actually get better. So before you come in spewing your self rightous baddle pelase study up on what you're about to bash please.
Don't bother getting worked up over it, he's probably one of those guys that hates on modern art as well, or anything that doesn't fit under his definition of "culture"
What is you reaction to current news about MLG PPV and EG not wanting to be part of MLG's new referral program? How does it fare with regard to your original post?
It was a smart business move to refuse a 5% referral deal (which is a laughable offer) while distancing themselves from the obvious shitstorm incoming.
eSports is truly growing thanks to the people who have stepped forward as pioneers in what most likely would have been nearly unfathomable years ago. And yet thanks to the voices of the community and the proponents and leaders of major events, a dream has become reality. I believe that you, inControl have what it takes to appeal to a broad range of gamers. Charisma and a level head are both tools that a bunch of gamer nerds sometimes lack. Seeing the numbers as the prize pool and viewers continue to see growth is a great confidence boost. Personally, as a viewer, I feel privileged to have such dedicated people who can adhere to a hobby and make it so much more. Not only does this make me happy as a Starcraft fan, but it inspires me to think in new ways.
This thread is very old indeed but I wondered, during this 2 years period, how many people have did their part regarding it? Or are we still just blindly ranting about what's wrong with the already very much improved game. I hope people can realize yet again that they themselves are the solution to this, if you still have some passion left in you please, let that not go to waste.