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Hi, I feel like getting getting different point of views on the situation some people find themselves in.
I don't really have anyone to talk to because I have trouble trusting people.
So basically since I don't have many friends and don't have much to do during my evenings besides homework, I do a LOT of thinking. Most of these thoughts are related to the people that attend my school and how they behave and why they do what they do. One thing I've always thought about is fashion. A lot of people my age find it important to dress a certain way for a purpose, whether it is to let people know what kind of person you are or how much money you have.
I was walking around in the mall the other day looking for a job and something my psychology teacher said suddenly hit me. Most of the stores that sell expensive clothing make a lot of money off of teenagers who get sucked in. Obviously there is nothing new here, and most people know about how the whole economy system works on you buying useless shit you don't need.
What I find fucked up is that people know this, but still judge people on how they dress. It is like we are simply not in control of how we judge people or objects. Every day, I feel like I am not in control of my brain at all.
What exactly do I mean? Well I'll give you an example. I walk into class and someone catches my attention. It could be the weird looking thug in the corner or the pretty looking girl at the front. The next thing that happens is that I create an opinion on this person without knowing anything about them, and this happens without any decision on my end made. My brain simply DECIDED to make a judgement. I think about it right away and ask myself, now why did I make a judgement? I don't fucking know that the kid at the back of the class is a thug, I don't know why I find this particular girl attractive. I have no control over this whatsoever. This lack of control is what scares me like crazy.
Most people will simply say that it is completely normal, and some will mention Darwin's theories that everything we do is to adapt to our environment. For example, I have to judge people in order to remain safe or decide what to do in the situation. It is a matter of my brain deciding that to survive, I must be wary of this possible thug in the corner who could be a bad person, and my brain also decides that I must procreate and make more and more children, and my brain has decided that this particular girl is a suitable partner to do it with.
I did not decide any of this shit, it was already fucking decided the moment I walked into the classroom. This is why I believe a lot people really don't act themselves at all. They just follow instincts and their judgments are already made before they fucking do anything. It is so much easier to just go with the flow and try to buy the right clothes and act the right way to be accepted in social groups.
I don't want to be one of those people, but it is so fucking difficult when you are surrounded by them. The kind of people who actually give a shit what you study in school, or what you like to do in your spare time.
Some people find masturbation disgusting or wrong. Do they not understand that it is not me deciding to do it, my brain has decided that I must do it to satisfy my urge? Why is it that things like that cannot be discussed in public for fear of sounding like an insane and fucked up person?
I've always thought that it is unfair to be born into this world. It wasn't you that decided for your parents to have sex and for you to be born. You have to live in it and live with whatever place you are born into.
Some people say "Why don't you trade places with someone in Africa if you think they deserve it more than you?" The problem with this is that this is impossible. I can not tell my family that I am swapping places with someone else. They won't just accept a random person into their house.
Suicide is not an option because I don't have the control to do it. My brain will keep telling me YOU NEED TO STAY ALIVE AT ALL COSTS and this is why it is impossible for me to kill myself and just end this pile of shit.
I don't do drugs, I live a comfortable life and I go to school. Most people would say I am lucky and I should appreciate what I have and get a job in something I like. How the fuck can I sit here and live life while ignoring all this information? I wish I could just fucking be a robot like everyone else and just live a life not giving a shit about all this, but I simply can't and it fucking sucks to get up every day to the same boring life with the same people that don't give a shit about anything else than what their brain has already planned for them.
Any thoughts, TL?
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It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on.
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Life problems can get overwhelming. Find a passion, throw yourself into it and don't look back. If you focus hard enough, you'll be able to block out issues until you can deal with them, and then in five years you'll be thankful you didn't spend too long brooding over them.
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One of my teachers said that a lot of people live in a world where "ignorance is bliss" and that it is wrong to think this way. So basically she is wrong because you simply can't win?
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You're all sad and stuff because you judge people without getting to know them? You're sad because you want to fit into society?
In this case, you're gonna be sad all of your life because that is human nature. Try getting to know someone, there is usually a lot more to them than your initial thoughts. As for people judging you, just talk to them and I'm sure they will revise their opinion, provided you don't act like a dick. Don't like society? Then don't give a fuck. Nobody cares if you are alone, but I would certainly rather be alone doing something that I like rather than doing something I hate with other people.
Anyway, that's all the advice I can give. If you feel like this all the time maybe you should get yourself checked out for depression. Good luck with your world view, hope it improves for you.
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it's all a part of growing up. you have to get used to it and live life.
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On January 27 2012 14:55 ampson wrote: You're all sad and stuff because you judge people without getting to know them? You're sad because you want to fit into society?
In this case, you're gonna be sad all of your life because that is human nature. Try getting to know someone, there is usually a lot more to them than your initial thoughts. As for people judging you, just talk to them and I'm sure they will revise their opinion, provided you don't act like a dick. Don't like society? Then don't give a fuck. Nobody cares if you are alone, but I would certainly rather be alone doing something that I like rather than doing something I hate with other people.
Anyway, that's all the advice I can give. If you feel like this all the time maybe you should get yourself checked out for depression. Good luck with your world view, hope it improves for you.
1. Getting to know who exactly? I've gotten to know people in the past and they simply didn't act themselves, its like they acted differently depending on who they were with. They had no control whatsoever.
2. This isn't about me being alone, but rather that I believe I notice something others don't and I want to hear other peoples thoughts on the topic.
3. You think things can just go away magically by visiting a psychologist or some shit for depression? I don't even know what to say... WTF?
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you can't ignore the fact that people dress up the way they want is how they want to present themselves. They are in control with themselves, they know they are charged for a high price tag, but that's what you are wrong about, they are in control.
there is nothing wrong with pre-judging a person based upon his look. but as you get more experienced, you can judge a person even better based upon his gesture, voice tone, eye contact etc. expensive watch but cheap clothing for example can mean that he is a man that has good taste in things that he likes while doesn't care much about the things he doesn't, open up a topic about his watch and he would get along with you much better
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your brain's not deciding anything, it's you. no matter what you think, YOU think that girl is attractive, YOU think that guy looks like a thug, YOU don't have the self control to not fap, and YOU could kill yourself if you wanted to, but you don't, so you haven't.
I would take a deep breath, get a good night's sleep, and stop trying to be over philosophical. none of what you're saying makes any sense at all. you think you're special, that you're the only one who's thinking about thinking, but you're not, everyone else has the same thoughts, all the time, they just figure them out for themselves, or ignore them until they figure it out later.
you are lucky. appreciate what you have and stop trying to force convoluted misery on yourself through baseless mindless high school dribble.
that being said, if you'd ever like to discuss this further feel free to pm me :D
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Honestly? You need to get out more. Saying you have no control over things is just foolish, and a sign of youth. The world is not nearly as complex as you want it to be, and you don't need to be so philosophical to get through it.
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Okay, so first off I think you need to get over your natural distrust of people. Think what you may of them, whether that be ignorant or stupid, but just force yourself to do it. From what I've learned thinking about the behavior of people it's that for the most part none of them are inherently evil, so don't be afraid to open up to them. Of course don't go over the top and trust random strangers but at least open yourself up to a few you deem morally intact. A huge component of learning to deal with people is understanding them. This is impossible if you don't talk with them, and meaningful discussion usually only occur when people trust each other to some degree.
Although I agree to some extent that mainstream society is kind of fucked over right now with the direction it's headed, with people like the Kardashians getting news headlines over stories of human hardships in third world countries, don't worry about it. There will always be those that share in your views and feel the same way. However, once again, the only way you'll be able to find them is by opening up to others. It's these kinds of people that will restore your faith in humanity and that you will find lifelong friends in. Afterwards, your view of the world will most likely improve a whole deal.
Keep your head up, ignore the haters and strive to learn more about life, you're still young and there are many things you still haven't experienced that can turn your opinions around!
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On January 27 2012 14:33 Endymion wrote: It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on. This. I feel your pain OP, but there is little you can do. Sometimes it's better not to think, as the majority of the population is to stupid to do it themselves, and there is little the enlightened few can do about it.
The less you think about these things, and the more you surrender to ignorance, the happier you are. At least, that's my experience, but I'm sure yours will be similar.
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On January 27 2012 15:40 Rollin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 14:33 Endymion wrote: It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on. This. I feel your pain OP, but there is little you can do. Sometimes it's better not to think, as the majority of the population is to stupid to do it themselves, and there is little the enlightened few can do about it. The less you think about these things, and the more you surrender to ignorance, the happier you are. At least, that's my experience, but I'm sure yours will be similar. This is the kind of thing I want to hear. I find it interesting that people post in this thread and insult me by calling me a youngster who knows nothing.
I simply want to know if we live in a society where ignorance is bliss and can't be avoided, but it is something I have to accept.
If this is true, I will start living a fake life like everyone else. Everything will be a lie, but I will be happy, right?
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On January 27 2012 15:04 Axe.ZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 14:55 ampson wrote: You're all sad and stuff because you judge people without getting to know them? You're sad because you want to fit into society?
In this case, you're gonna be sad all of your life because that is human nature. Try getting to know someone, there is usually a lot more to them than your initial thoughts. As for people judging you, just talk to them and I'm sure they will revise their opinion, provided you don't act like a dick. Don't like society? Then don't give a fuck. Nobody cares if you are alone, but I would certainly rather be alone doing something that I like rather than doing something I hate with other people.
Anyway, that's all the advice I can give. If you feel like this all the time maybe you should get yourself checked out for depression. Good luck with your world view, hope it improves for you. 1. Getting to know who exactly? I've gotten to know people in the past and they simply didn't act themselves, its like they acted differently depending on who they were with. They had no control whatsoever.
It is having control to act differently with different people. If you act one way with everybody you will alienate half the people you meet. That doesn't really work. You of course have a core of who you are, then you have multiple faces from that core.
If I were to act as I wanted to act in all settings I would be out of a job within a week. Control is acting within the expected norms and breaking them when it when one judges it worthwhile, most often it isn't.
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On January 27 2012 15:44 Axe.ZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 15:40 Rollin wrote:On January 27 2012 14:33 Endymion wrote: It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on. This. I feel your pain OP, but there is little you can do. Sometimes it's better not to think, as the majority of the population is to stupid to do it themselves, and there is little the enlightened few can do about it. The less you think about these things, and the more you surrender to ignorance, the happier you are. At least, that's my experience, but I'm sure yours will be similar. This is the kind of thing I want to hear. I find it interesting that people post in this thread and insult me by calling me a youngster who knows nothing. I simply want to know if we live in a society where ignorance is bliss and can't be avoided, but it is something I have to accept. If this is true, I will start living a fake life like everyone else. Everything will be a lie, but I will be happy, right?
We don't. It's not true. And you are a youngster who knows nothing. And that's literally not an insult. But if you take it as one, it just reinforces the point.
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Listen, I've had the exact thoughts you've had. Mine have probably been worse. Just assuming that nobody else but you can think for themselves and have thought about these sorts of things is not fair to those that have, including myself. The truth is, only you can create meaning in what you choose to do.
What the older members of TL probably have realized is that it is difficult to live life cooped up by yourself, so what you need to do is to probe out socially for the sake of exposing yourself to new ideas and perspectives. If you find a gem among them, get to know them better.
Ignorance is bliss until you realize you know nothing. Then it becomes agony. The above solutions are good ways to resolve that issue, so listen up and listen closely.
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On January 27 2012 15:57 LunarC wrote: Listen, I've had the exact thoughts you've had. Mine have probably been worse. Just assuming that nobody else but you can think for themselves and have thought about these sorts of things is not fair to those that have, including myself. The truth is, only you can create meaning in what you choose to do.
What the older members of TL probably have realized is that it is difficult to live life cooped up by yourself, so what you need to do is to probe out socially for the sake of exposing yourself to new ideas and perspectives. If you find a gem among them, get to know them better.
Ignorance is bliss until you realize you know nothing. Then it becomes agony. The above solutions are good ways to resolve that issue, so listen up and listen closely.
I was typing up something much more insulting than this but he's got it right. The world is a big place. A really wonderful place. Go out, experience it. Once you have, come back and tell me with a straight face that the world is really this fake and shitty, and maybe then we can have a real conversation.
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You will be a good anarchist.
You should read "what anarchism really stands for" by emma goldman and "mutaual aid" by kerpotkin.
I read these and became an anarchist, it helped that I liked questioning things. it made me a lot happier i think..
actually how old are you because maybe this isn't the best idea.
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What's wrong with judging people by how they dress?
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On January 27 2012 16:24 Jerubaal wrote: What's wrong with judging people by how they dress?
I can agree with this. Clothes says what a person wants to say. I don't wear fashionable clothes, first hint when somebody meets me. They basically work as an armour if you choose to wear certain styles as people won't walk up and talk to you due to the simple clothe clue.
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How I feel about it:
+ Show Spoiler +Hope it doesn't count as image macro, I made it for this thread. Didn't feel like chatting.
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On January 27 2012 16:24 Jerubaal wrote: What's wrong with judging people by how they dress?
Absolutely nothing. If you treat somebody badly because of how they dress however is a different story and a lot of people don't separate those two things sadly.
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On January 27 2012 16:55 airen wrote:How I feel about it: + Show Spoiler +Hope it doesn't count as image macro, I made it for this thread. Didn't feel like chatting. i hate to say it but that looks kind of like a certain female body part. it's interesting there's bliss, and agony there....could make up something comical but i dont feel like it
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As long as you care what other people think you're no different from those who annoy you for being "fake". They are fake because they are afraid of people's judgement. The only way to be yourself is to not give a flying fuck, and that also liberates you from being depressed by the way others act.
Yes, the majority of people are retarded, especially teenagers. Nothing new here that's why democracy doesn't work.
Your way out of this is embracing whoever you are, finding the stuff that you love and doing it, becoming really good at it and voila, your life now has meaning. Stop thinking about others and start thinking about yourself
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Just wait until you learn about world politics and the true nature of religion.
Life is shitty. Really, really shitty. This is why you have to find friends, love, and hobbies, so you can carve your own little piece of sanity out.
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Lol. Some of the responses miss the mark completely. I can relate to the way you are thinking. I have thought similar things, however my approach was less negative than yours. And that is what the problem is, the negative association with what you have come to realize... Here's the thing. Humans are animals. You know this, we are brought into this world each with different sets of rules, morals, intellect, so on and so forth. Your emotional intellect is far higher than the average for your presumably young age. The average person is the person you describe, dress to fit in, act to fit in, their life revolves around the lives around them. As you would have learned in psychology (this doesn't need explaining because you already know) humans and all other beings are confined to the notion of survival of the fittest. Modern 'survival of the fittest' is what you describe - people trying to fit in, so desperately to feel a part of something. This is something you need to acknowledge and get used to.
I agree with everything you say. What you say is right. We are, in a way, puppets of this world - 'nature' itself, we do not control who our parents are, the morals they impose, we do not control our physical appearance, we - by this argument have not ever and do not control our own thoughts. For years I believed that everything is predetermined in a way. I cannot control the future, because the past determines today, and today determines the future. To put this into perspective, I am not strictly speaking about actions, I am talking about the way we think. If I decide to study hard, yes I 'want' to study hard, but why? I may have been taught as a child that studying is important. I may have been guilt tripped into studying. For whatever reason, the studying was inevitable. Through years of experiences - experiences we may recognize or not, have been stepping stones to EVERY SINGLE DECISION we make today. Everything that has happened, effects what WILL happen, the way we feel and think, respond and learn etc etc.
But then I realized I have SOME level of control. I CAN do whatever I want, within the limitations of what I have experienced and learned. While I don't have FULL control, the 'free will' (as its so commonly described) that I have empowers me to make good and bad decisions. You can kill yourself, but I don't think you want to. It's just the emotion of feeling helpless, one that you have grossly exaggerated, yet still being correct fundamentally.
My advice is that you need to acknowledge we are all puppets. However, we have some control to pull the strings in a direction that we desire (and yes, these desires have also been constructed over years of experience).
You have a greater understanding of the way this world works. And it can be cruel, but it can also be wonderful. Life is about perception, and your perception is clouded by emotions. The people around you don't realize their actions because they have not had the opportunity to learn why they behave the way they do. And, unfortunately you cannot blame them for it, nor pity them, for this is just the way the world is. There are lots of people that think the way you do. But this is not something that people are open to discuss, because it threatens their 'survival'. You are best to accept the way this world is, and get the most out of it. The only reason I have to live is to be happy. I may not be happy today, or tomorrow, but I will stick around because you never know what will happen. Conclusions about the future are the most irrational and idiotic mistakes a man can make.
Also wanted to note that there is much more to people than face value - the way they dress, act around crowds. I am not afraid to judge someone based on their appearance, because I am open to being wrong. Assumptions (lots of wrong ones) will be made, and you shouldn't be so hard on yourself when you make them. People are, for the most part the way you expect, however sometimes you are surprised, and it is extremely refreshing.
good luck yo, cheer up, pm me if u want to discuss further
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On January 27 2012 15:44 Axe.ZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 15:40 Rollin wrote:On January 27 2012 14:33 Endymion wrote: It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on. This. I feel your pain OP, but there is little you can do. Sometimes it's better not to think, as the majority of the population is to stupid to do it themselves, and there is little the enlightened few can do about it. The less you think about these things, and the more you surrender to ignorance, the happier you are. At least, that's my experience, but I'm sure yours will be similar. This is the kind of thing I want to hear. I find it interesting that people post in this thread and insult me by calling me a youngster who knows nothing. I simply want to know if we live in a society where ignorance is bliss and can't be avoided, but it is something I have to accept. If this is true, I will start living a fake life like everyone else. Everything will be a lie, but I will be happy, right? Basically this. But only if you can manage to ignore. If you can, lucky you! I have been thinking about this a lot and in my opinion without ignorance you will never reach happiness. Try it out, think about all the shit that's going on in this world (in this very second!) and tell me that you can still be happy... it just doesn't work (maybe if you're totally apathetic)
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You really need to relax and get some friends.
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On January 27 2012 15:44 Axe.ZerG wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 15:40 Rollin wrote:On January 27 2012 14:33 Endymion wrote: It only gets worse as you get older, you might as well embrace ignorance and remake your own corner of the world and hope that it catches on. This. I feel your pain OP, but there is little you can do. Sometimes it's better not to think, as the majority of the population is to stupid to do it themselves, and there is little the enlightened few can do about it. The less you think about these things, and the more you surrender to ignorance, the happier you are. At least, that's my experience, but I'm sure yours will be similar. This is the kind of thing I want to hear. I find it interesting that people post in this thread and insult me by calling me a youngster who knows nothing. I simply want to know if we live in a society where ignorance is bliss and can't be avoided, but it is something I have to accept. If this is true, I will start living a fake life like everyone else. Everything will be a lie, but I will be happy, right? I don't think you should take Rollin's advice since it just gives you the illusion that you're somehow more special compared to the majority just because you think you're more smarter than them. You can live in a society happy without having to live a fake life. I am not going to lie that you will be in situations where you do have to just go with the way society is. It is true that there are a lot of factors that you have no control over but you do have control over some and lying to yourself that you don't is just making excuses. It is not wrong to think and you can think and still be happy. Just there is incorrect thinking that leads you nowhere because you're just running around in circles in your head. My first advice is drop the mindset that you somehow can see something that others can't and also don't judge the whole population just by the world you live in right now.
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The fact is, he can see things others can't. That doesn't mean its worth being arrogant about. No it doesn't even make you 'smarter' than them. I would call it a higher emotional intelligence, but walking around thinking what people have to say isn't worth listening to will get you nowhere. You'll just feel more alone.
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I was exactly like this for a few years too... then I realized something
"Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power."
It's something someone said to me a long time ago, but I only understood it recently. Only when you understand these things can you do something worthwhile in life, what that is up to you to decide.
Also, about the "no control" part... your brain IS you and no one else... the feeling comes about because your brain is modular and not all parts are self-aware, but that doesn't mean that something else is controlling you or something.
Hope that makes sense lol.
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
Lol now that you're through the looking glass, don't go waving it around. Use it to your advantage.
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Just accept that most people are stupid and will make decisions that goes against their well being. Just learn to exploit it knowing that you know "better". Even though it can be real frustrating to live in this world try to take advantage over the fact that you think things through instead of just doing what society tells you and make your own little reality that doesn't care all that much about the other people because you will never be rid of them.
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On January 27 2012 16:09 TheNessman wrote: You will be a good anarchist.
You should read "what anarchism really stands for" by emma goldman and "mutaual aid" by kerpotkin.
I read these and became an anarchist, it helped that I liked questioning things. it made me a lot happier i think..
actually how old are you because maybe this isn't the best idea.
In addition, if you really want to explore anarchy, goto www.freedomainradio.com and listen to the radio show FreeTalkLive.
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I wanted to be one of the few that gives you a bit of hope. In high school and in some parts of university people generally act on impulses like you say; trying to fit in, make the jokes, wear nice clothes, have the latest gadgets etc.
But its absolutely wrong to think that everyone continues to live that kind of life as they get older, or that people in general are only those types because they're genetically designed that way. Some people get tired of acting that way and instead try to find a better way to live - where they do what they are truly passionate about, being more independent and making friends with people who are truly interesting and intelligent.
There are definitely those kinds of people out there, I've met them in university, and its a breath of fresh air. I'm pretty sure there are a few in high school too. It is difficult because social status is important to everybody at that time, without which you're basically ostracized from the main groups. But eventually people stop being so egotistical and focused on fitting in, and just start being themselves and exploring things without acting like sheep so much.
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Err, sorry if I came across as arrogant in my first post guys. I didn't mean to imply that these kind of thoughts implied you are more intelligent than the rest of the population, I have met people more intelligent (as a gross measure) than I who are so much more inwardly seeking and self-serving, that I have little doubt they have ever really considered some of the issues the OP raises to the same depth. What I was trying to point out is that few actually care about who they do not interact with, and this is the first step to obtaining a more philosophical viewpoint in my opinion.
The OP's thoughts seem to be centered on human depravity, the inherent self promotion instinct held in high regard and encouraged by most Western societies, and he (appears to) challenge this idealism with the question: why? What is there to gain from this?
It's not intelligence per se, but more the markings of a deeper thinking philosophical mind. There is a certain selflessness, or perhaps, as in my case, more a case of self-loathing required to effectively think through these things. I detest the basic instincts which form the human nature. To enjoy your life, regardless of the cost. This, I think, is the singular most depressing realization I have ever made. In fact, to aid others is almost as self serving as to use them for the furtherment of your happiness, as in aiding them, you subtly bring yourself happiness too. In this then, there is no true selflessness. By our own nature, everything we do is self-serving.
Like the OP, I also loathe the way I am quick to judge on first appearance, but I keep whichever judgements I make to myself. The times I have spoken to others on the topic, they say don't judge others at all. I find this extremely hard to believe, which makes me think they are either lying, or they haven't even noticed it. However, subconscious judging on first appearance is important. It allows your brain to quickly decide how you will first interact with the person, whether or not you actually want to interact with the person, and forms a subconscious template for you if you decide to initiate (or they do) contact. What is more damaging I think is continuing to judge people after you first contact them based upon their appearance or manner, as opposed to what they say or their ideals.
As a word of advice, don't begin to think that others deserve something more or less than you do. This is a precursor to possible self-righteousness or self-loathing, and your comment about a child in Africa being more 'deserving' of a what is generally considered a better lot in life can become quite mentally damaging if you truly believe it.
Also, why do you consider ignorance a lie? If you feel you are living a lie, you haven't truly embraced ignorance, and are retaining your old viewpoints and ideals. Once you reach the point of perfect ignorance (theoretically) you will have no qualms whatsoever, and all of this will be forgotten. It will be a life perfectly free of thoughts of well-being of others, and solely self-focused.
And with your last paragraph OP, I personally feel you have taken it a little to far. People aren't 'robotic' in nature, whilst I see your point, it doesn't really matter. Your comment about "what their brain has planned for them" is trivial, the question of predestiny is irrelevant so long as it is not foretold. I can explain this further if you so desire, but if you think about it, you should come to the same conclusion yourself if you have a sharp mind.
This post has re-raised deep issues I wish I could bury forever and leave behind. I both thank you and dislike you for reminding me of them, as I have tried to choose the path of ignorance as opposed to self-enlightenment. And as another word of warning, this sort of deep introspection is often associated with depression, as well as bitterness and possibly to a lesser extent cynicism, later in life.
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