The ghost change negatively affects how ghosts work in scenarios besides vs. Tier 3 Zerg for no real reason. Instead of changing Ghost damage to be 25 +25 to Psionic it could be changed it to be 50 base damage minus some amount to massive. This still addresses the Zerg tier 3 issue, gives ghosts a better chance vs. infestors and keeps the rest of the situations where ghosts might be used in tact.
Maybe you've heard. Maybe you havn't. Patch 1.4.3 has been announced and due to a tweaking of numbers ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl. While ghosts are indeed being used TvZ all the time, they would no longer be potentially viable in many other situations after said change.
So what's the change? Snipe currently does 45 damage. After 1.4.3 Snipe will do 25 +25 to Psionic units
Why? Blizzard is changing this to reduce the strength of mass ghost armies vs. zerg in the late game - something that seems reasonable.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable. Things you can snipe Marine Marauder Ghost Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Mutalisk Queen Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
What units would you reasonably want to snipe (Where 3-4 snipes makes the ghost roughly pay for itself or where snipe is a good response as in the case of broodlord/viking)
Things you want to snipe Marine Marauder Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Baneling Hydralisk Mutalisk Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
You can see that basically all terran bio is vulnerable to snipe as well as some specific units from zerg. The most notable are banelings and mutalisks.
Now separate into 2 groups - post patch - those that would take less damage and those that would take more.
This isn't just a small nerf being proposed. It's almost a 50% reduction in damage. It'd be like if marines now did 4 base damage. It's a big decrease and any unit that would take 25 damage instead of the old 45 wouldn't be worth sniping anymore. The ghost just wouldn't be cost efficient.
Herein lies the problem. This change affects a lot more than just tier 3 Zerg. All of a sudden ghosts are not really cost efficient at all vs. anything that isn't psionic. This change would ruin possible innovation and uses for snipe in other situations.
Cool Situations before
One shotting banelings with snipe to protect your bio clump - not possible after the change
Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
Using snipe to fend off muta harrass - again. 25 damage per shot means 5 snipes vs. just 3. Plus that assumes you're even able to click the same muta 5 times.
My personal favorite: opening fast ghosts TvT and using snipe to one shot marines - again not possible after the change
Have we seen these situations before? Not really. Maybe once? Maybe almost never, but the point is that if Blizzard changes Ghosts in the proposed way we won't. Not now, not ever. This change kills potential innovation and interesting play. But the ghost vs. Tier 3 Zerg relationship can be fixed while keeping the ghost in tact in other situations. Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful.
Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations.
A final note of consideration against the proposed change:
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
Now we just need Blizzard to know. Show your friends. Tweet about it. Discuss it on Reddit. If Blizzard hears us talking they will listen. We just need to be loud enough. Please, don't let Blizzard kill ghosts. They've barely had a chance to live.
This is how changes should be done. Don't forget the big picture to change the thing you want to change. I was impressed when I heard it on State of the Game, and I still am.
Actually, now that I think about it, snipe should do 45 base damage and have the damage reduced with armor upgrades. Maybe combine the energy upgrade with 5 more damage to snipe? Something that allows snipe damage to be upgraded VERY SLIGHTLY 10 (10 at MOST) but have the damage reduced by armor.
That would be more balanced, at least in my platinum eyes.
I still think this change (or one with similar numbers) is reasonable. The ghost and specifically the snipe ability was not meant to be an answer to everything. I think changing this will only be good.
And in regards to the comments being made here and by others about how this will change the matchup. The matchups are constantly changing whether from patching or from shifts in the metagame. I don't feel it's reasonable to expect the game to remain the same so you can perfect your strategies. As a viewer more than a player this only makes the game more interesting for me. I appreciate that it's difficulty to deal with these shifts as the one that is playing with them day to day but I still don't think this change is as game breaking as is being advertised.
QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.
Really good post, altough im zerg player i think the current proposed change by blizzard is bad and is taking away (such heavy nerf is basically a removal) a really cool ablility and can make late game zvt unwinnable for terran. Instead of 50% nerf to all nonpsionic targets, 25% to massive and no change to non-massive sounds reasonable.
On February 15 2012 03:18 Moochlol wrote: QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.
I bet there is a bigger chance of a dev seeing it, if it's posted here than if its on the B.net forums.
why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
On February 15 2012 03:20 zul wrote: why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
Because combating infestor on top of ZT3 is very difficult(3 snipes to kill infestor), banking on the infestor taking some random extra dmg to kill it when it sits @ 1 health or something is kinda dumb, he is making the math like this so it 2 shots infestor, which is totally valid given the situation.
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
thats the same wrong done worse. We still enjoy all the negatives QxC mentioned, but ghost will still be strong against broodlord.
Waw a lot of effor put into this. I completly aggree. A bit wierd that blizzard made this change when they put so much thought into thair balance changes and qxc just comes up with a better solution on state of the game in 5 seconds
Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Now we just need Blizzard to know. Show your friends. Tweet about it. Discuss it on Reddit. If Blizzard hears us talking they will listen. We just need to be loud enough.
Cause this has worked SO well for things like paid name changes and LAN support...
When I first read about the ghost nerf, as Zerg, I was excited because I always thought it a little ridiculous that as a Zerg going for our Tier 3 units vs. Terran was an invitation to lose to ghosts. However, I also thought it was really strange that they made the change to +25 psionic, since so few units are psionic...I'm not a high level player the likes of qxc so I didn't really look at any deeper than that, but the fact that even I considered it a strange change is something to take note of.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Because we are tired of losing strategy to quick bandaid balance.
Ghosts already have an anti-caster function (EMP) - this change boxes the Ghost into nothing more than anti-caster, a hard-counter-type unit instead of an active unit that Blizzard has previously to make all units into at some measure or another (but failed in a few cases... Corruptors, anyone?).
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
I am afraid you are completely missing the point. Or you are poorly trying to manipulate us, into not actually thinking about the change.
Even after the 25 + 25 damage vs psionic, doesn't it still take the same number of snipes to kill infestors or high templars. So, isn't the buff against psionic actually useless?
I really, really agree with this OP. I want snipe to still be useful against *something* other than HT/infestor. Rather than less damange against massive, I'd rather see the bonus be against light (since a negative "bonus" doesn't exist elsewhere, and I think blizzard would frown on such a thing). I also think you could just decrease ghost max energy, so you couldn't have as many snipes without more ghosts.
I also still want ghosts to be an *option* against broodlord/ultra, just not as strong as it is now. So whatever form the nerf takes, it should be a little less than what they propose there.
On February 15 2012 03:33 p0in7Blas7 wrote: Even after the 25 + 25 damage vs psionic, doesn't it still take the same number of snipes to kill infestors or high templars. So, isn't the buff against psionic actually useless?
No it will change the number of snipes against infestors and ghost - from 3 to 2. But yes - HT, DT will stay the same.
On February 15 2012 03:33 p0in7Blas7 wrote: Even after the 25 + 25 damage vs psionic, doesn't it still take the same number of snipes to kill infestors or high templars. So, isn't the buff against psionic actually useless?
I totally agree in every way. I loved doing stupid ghost rushes in 2v2 and sniping marines. Obviously people who play terran 1v1 may have more use for snipe in its current form, but I just liked silly ghost rushes
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
I am afraid you are completely missing the point. Or you are poorly trying to manipulate us, into not actually thinking about the change.
Let's look at the OP:
"this would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit." "All of a sudden ghosts are not really cost efficient at all vs. anything that isn't psionic."
So I say, what's the big deal? As a professional, one ought to deal with the changes and adapt to them, not the other way around.
Thanks for writing this. Ghost becomes so useless in TvsT early game with this patch. And ghost openings are the most fun ones! I especially enjoy ghost drops vs workers. It's the best feeling in sc2!
So, Al Bundy, you're suggesting that if Zerglings were buffed to do 99999 damage, pros should "adapt to them" and not say "Blizzard you're ruining the damn game"
That's a HUGE exaggeration but it gets my point across - there's valid reasons to complain about games balance. If people didn't speak out about balance issues we would still be on patch 1.0 and everyone would just have to "Deal with it"
I already completely agreed with how qxc talked about the snipe change on SotG. I even warmed up slightly on the scroll wheel issue when he talked about that, too. And yes, one of the more interesting strats, imo, are the fast ghosts in TvT.
Before zergs say that ghosts counter every zerg unit, ask yourself if it's really important vs roaches and lings. Consider how difficult it is to quickly snipe a bunch of banelings. Keep in mind that qxc's proposal still limits snipe damage vs broods and ultras a lot. Furthermore, terrans really could use 45 or 50 dmg snipe vs the late game zealots, not this 25 nonsense which is almost the exact same as +3 attack ghosts (+26 to light).
Ironically, other than infestors always getting sniped in 2 shots, ghosts get double shafted because they now get 2 shotted by snipe, without medevacs of course.
On February 15 2012 03:42 Torenhire wrote: So, Al Bundy, you're suggesting that if Zerglings were buffed to do 99999 damage, pros should "adapt to them" and not say "Blizzard you're ruining the damn game"
That's a HUGE exaggeration but it gets my point across - there's valid reasons to complain about games balance. If people didn't speak out about balance issues we would still be on patch 1.0 and everyone would just have to "Deal with it"
Man why the exaggeration? There is no need to go to such extremes, there is an obvious difference between the ghost nerf and your zergling buff, which is unrealistic. Please don't use extreme examples. The ghost is going to get nerfed, it will not become broken. This nerf is not game-breaking at all, unlike your suggestion.
Ghosts are NOT cost-effective vs low tier units. Preserving that piece of the puzzle is almost irrelevant. It's not about innovation, it just doesn't matter. These game scenarios are really not that interesting.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=311212 Ghosts are basically too cost efficient against BL. The change will make them only cost efficient against infestors, and occasionally cost efficient against BL. We all know that ghost vs infestor is not a completely realistic setup, given how armies are normally positioned.
Right now ghosts get to do a free 180 damage at equal food cost for each BL spawn cycle. After the nerf they will only do 100. This may or may not be reasonable, but we have to remember that there are a lot of units that are extremely cost efficient at what they do. To destroy that in favor of having a unit that is extremely one dimensional. I don't know.
Blizzard has done this throughout the whole game. Instead of having units that are almost ridiculously powerful positionally (mines, tanks, dark swarm lurkers, reavers), they've made the game into one of direct hard counters. Each unit, other than the core infantry units, is specialized to do one thing, and not much else. Watch BW, and you will see how units interact based on positional properties, rather than counters.
Good write-up and I agree, it's not hard at all for Blizzard to nerf snipe in a way that only makes it worse in the situations where it's deemd too poweful (Zerg T3). It almost seems like some employee had a bet where the psionice attribute would some day be useful ^^
I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
It is funny, Blizzard said that Infestor, Brood Lord combinations were being looked at in the late game as possibly being overpowered, then Terran adapts and start using ghosts, and now the nerfs are being applied to Terran. Ah back to the drawing board, I can't say that I enjoy the direction of the game at the moment.
I respectfully disagree with the post, as a Protoss player it's clear that snipe has waaay too many applications and that makes the ghost an automatic tech choice rather than a tech choice that is made based on strategic info. You said yourself in your post (paraphrased) "No longer can snipe: one-shot banelings, one-shot marines, deal with muta harass, take down emp'ed zealots, one-shot workers, waste Zerg tier 3." Just by making that sentence you can plainly see how many applications snipe has, and not only that, how many it excels at. I loved Kaydarin Amulet but yeah, it was a little too good. No one likes a nerf but some are warranted.
Yeah, made the same suggestion on reddit right after the anouncement. Make snipe less effective against massive. Increasing the base damage to 50 would mean you can 2 shot zealots and ghosts and 3 shot roaches and 1shot reapers, 4shot corruptors. All things that make ghosts more usable early and mid game and reward skill.
The thing I would change about ghosts is EMP. Increase the radius a little again, but make the ability researchable. EMP is just too strong early against P, but without it late P deathballs are just too easy unstoppable a-moves.
On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote: Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
Someone made a good point in the main thread that I think deserves attention: There are no other attacks skills or otherwise that do a base damage, but then less to certain types of units. For instance, there are plenty of "20 damage +20 to armored", but absolutely no "40 damage -20 to light". I think at that point you're getting into adding new computations into the game, and may require far more than just a simple patch to fix.
While I agree that the nerf is a little bit much, it's also a much needed nerf to T gameplay vs t3 Z, and am really interested in how it will turn out.
I would like to say that the idea someone had of making snipe 35 damage with a plus to psionic would be a great fix, and honestly believe that's what Blizzard will eventually settle on.
On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote: I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
A quote from a blizzard employee:
Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors
Now let's see how qxc uses the snipe ability: -snipe banelings -snipe mutas -snipe zealots -snipe marines
Please note that while the first two can be seen as legitimate "strategies" from a Terran player's perspective, the last two are not even related to the TvZ matchup. It seems to me that qxc is upset about not longer being able to ABUSE the snipe ability. At the moment the ghost is too versatile TvZ, that's why I think this nerf is reasonable.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
And if you remember correctly, BFH is literally gone from the meta-game unless the Terran happens to be going mech. Furthermore, qxc's ENTIRE post was about analysis of the use of the 1.4.3 ghost. If you don't have an issue with increasingly specialized units, I don't think you've read the countless thorough OP/threads explaining why increased specialization differentiates the SC1 and SC2.
On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote: I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors
Now let's see how qxc uses the snipe ability: -snipe banelings -snipe mutas -snipe zealots -snipe marines
Please note that while the first two can be seen as legitimate "strategies" from a Terran player's perspective, the last two are not even related to the TvZ matchup. It seems to me that qxc is upset about not longer being able to ABUSE the snipe ability. At the moment the ghost is too versatile TvZ, that's why I think this nerf is reasonable.
I don't see your logic here, qxc's point is precisely that Blizzard thinks they're rectifying something very narrowly addressed [TvZ] while screwing up a good situation in other matchups. Qxc's proposal makes sure that the change is played out as Blizzard intends it.
Furthermore, you're just nonsensically calling it "abuse" just because snipe can be used in situations that Blizzard didn't envision it. That makes zero sense. The fact that Blizzard didn't originally think of snipe as an ability to target zealots doesn't mean that ghosts are imba against zealots - far from it, it's a micro-intensive application [that must be accomplished in the midst of multi-tasking the emp, stim, stutter step, dealing with templar/targeting colossi with vikings etc].
On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote: Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
On February 15 2012 04:00 Moochlol wrote: Yo bro you are giving Al Bundy a terrible name, hes a fucking legend, and your being very disrespectful for using his name, especially with your bronze level theory craft.
He threw four touchdowns in one game man. Legend.
Exactly, using his name in vain as the user here on TL is a fucking disgrace. 4 touchdowns in a single game.....cmon
qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
On February 15 2012 03:55 Torenhire wrote: I kind of called it out as a ridiculous exaggeration so you wouldn't analyze the useless part of my post, yet you did anyways.
All you've done here is say "the nerf isnt that bad" and "deal with it"
What do you propose, then? Why is Blizzard's suggestion better than qxc's? I don't see any reason that something like Deals 50 damage minus 25 to massive would be any worse than Blizzard's suggestion, except for maybe people are butthurt about getting units sniped.
The ghost functions fine as it is right now, except that it's pretty OP vs Broodlords and Ultras, this change is better for the ghost.
Our desire is not to redesign the ability or redefine the ghost’s role in the TvZ matchup, but to reduce its effectiveness versus broodlords and ultralisks while increasing its effectiveness versus infestors
Now let's see how qxc uses the snipe ability: -snipe banelings -snipe mutas -snipe zealots -snipe marines
Please note that while the first two can be seen as legitimate "strategies" from a Terran player's perspective, the last two are not even related to the TvZ matchup. It seems to me that qxc is upset about not longer being able to ABUSE the snipe ability. At the moment the ghost is too versatile TvZ, that's why I think this nerf is reasonable.
Thanks for finally proving that you miss the whole point of the OP. He has no problem with nerfing TvZ Ghost usage, therefore all your complaints about how he has to "deal with it" or "nerfing something OP means its useless now" or the fact that you even think that "snipe is only meant to be used in TvZ" (Yes thats what saying "that its abusing" means.) are beside the point of the OP
As a zerg player, I agree with this wholeheartedly. It doesn't seem fair that there would be a reduction for all of those units. What did seem unfair (and although this isn't really the issue, unrealistic) was a snipe being able to snipe massive units. I hope Blizzard reads this. As a matter of fact, I'm going to post this on b.net right now.
On February 15 2012 04:01 tehemperorer wrote: I respectfully disagree with the post, as a Protoss player it's clear that snipe has waaay too many applications and that makes the ghost an automatic tech choice rather than a tech choice that is made based on strategic info. You said yourself in your post (paraphrased) "No longer can snipe: one-shot banelings, one-shot marines, deal with muta harass, take down emp'ed zealots, one-shot workers, waste Zerg tier 3." Just by making that sentence you can plainly see how many applications snipe has, and not only that, how many it excels at. I loved Kaydarin Amulet but yeah, it was a little too good. No one likes a nerf but some are warranted.
ghosts are an automatic tech choice less so because they are good (they are) and more so because they are actually required in order to win major engagements. for example, trying to win vs archons and HTs without ghosts in late game TvP would be laughable to say the least.
disregarding snipes effectiveness vs t3 zerg, i'm not sure you can say that snipe's current state vs mutas/banes/marines/zealots warrants a nerf considering how little we actually see snipe used vs those units.
so all in all, i agree with qxc in that snipe should be changed in such a way that it's less strong vs t3 zerg but unaffected in areas where it's not being perceived as a problem in the current metagame.
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
45 hp marines shouldn't survive one snipe either imo though.
idk if they want to have reductions based on type as they don't have any such precedent, but the void ray does have bonuses to two different types so i'm sure they can make some new alteration with that in mind.
i guess they don't want tvz to be decided by the fact that a t gets 30 ghosts at one point, and it becomes click moar faster = kill all the t3 units instantly
idk it makes sense to me edit: i realize the 2nd paragraph makes no sense given the 1st, but I will leave it here as a token of my stupidity
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
As i was reading his post more and more thats along the lines what i was thinking, Blizzard has good intentions but they were just to drastic with the changed.
So, I was quite happy with the change but didn't read the patch thread as I've read previous patch threads and they're not fun. I have to say that in my opinion (as a primarily Zerg player) I'd find your proposed change perfectly acceptable, and in many ways better for the game than Blizzard's suggestion.
On February 15 2012 04:14 Alejandrisha wrote: why doesn't my one unit kill everythingggggggg idk if they want to have reductions based on type as they don't have any such precedent, but the void ray does have bonuses to two different types so i'm sure they can make some new alteration with that in mind.
i guess they don't want tvz to be decided by the fact that a t gets 30 ghosts at one point, and it becomes click moar faster = kill all the t3 units instantly
idk it makes sense to me
Ever hear of "You might want to sit this next play out." Words of wisdom, from the movie Anchor Man. You might wana stop while your ridiculously behind.
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. If they can do bonus to massive, why wouldn't they be able to do subtraction.
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
As i was reading his post more and more thats along the lines what i was thinking, Blizzard has good intentions but they were just to drastic with the changed.
35 + 15 to sounds pretty good. while the X - y damage to massive would be ideal, I don't think they would put that in just because they don't have any other examples of that. Though it is a spell and not a damage type.. I agree blizz's way is a bit backwards about approaching the situation. would like to hear why they went one way and not the other
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
It is currently not worded as +10 to armored, it is worded 10 damage, 10 to armored. So it would be very easy to implement.
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. If they can do bonus to massive, why wouldn't they be able to do subtraction.
its so easy you can do it yourself in the map editor O_O!
On February 15 2012 04:18 Torenhire wrote: Some of you bring up a good point in that they have never done a minus damage modifier before...brings us to an interesting dilemma now lol.
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. If they can do bonus to massive, why wouldn't they be able to do subtraction.
its so easy you can do it yourself in the map editor O_O!
i don't play terran so correct me if im wrong but in all the games ive played all the games ive watched ive never seen ghosts being used before late game at all except vs ht. ive never seen it being used to snipe marines, Marauder Reaper etc. and i don't believe that is what youre ment to snipe. the ghost is used for dealing with hts, infestors and zerg t3 atm from all the games ive watched, so my questions is why bring up problems with snipeing marines etc when its not used? i think that with the nerf to snipe on zerg t3 is good as it was a bit op when used in mass. but why bring up stuff its never used for? its like saying medivacs are useless for healing mutas or something. TT
Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes.
On February 15 2012 04:18 Torenhire wrote: Some of you bring up a good point in that they have never done a minus damage modifier before...brings us to an interesting dilemma now lol.
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. If they can do bonus to massive, why wouldn't they be able to do subtraction.
its so easy you can do it yourself in the map editor O_O!
Figured as much haha.
"non-massive" might not be a category allowable for assigning bonus damage to either. My point is qxc's suggestion is obviously the best, but maybe Blizz can't figure out how to make a change like that without changes to the editor.
On February 15 2012 04:26 almins wrote: i don't play terran so correct me if im wrong but in all the games ive played all the games ive watched ive never seen ghosts being used before late game at all except vs ht. ive never seen it being used to snipe marines, Marauder Reaper etc. and i don't believe that is what youre ment to snipe. the ghost is used for dealing with hts, infestors and zerg t3 atm from all the games ive watched, so my questions is why bring up problems with snipeing marines etc when its not used? i think that with the nerf to snipe on zerg t3 is good as it was a bit op when used in mass. but why bring up stuff its never used for? its like saying medivacs are useless for healing mutas or something. TT
Not entirely true - people are starting to use ghost snipes vs marines and whatnot. It's not a widescale staple thing yet where you see it 3 times in a BO7.
Part of QXC's post is that this ghost nerf would completely eliminate the chance of that ever happening. What few people are experimenting or trying it would have ZERO reason to once this nerf goes through.
It's like Blizzard is axing a whole bunch of the ghost's potential all at once with this nerf, where it's completely unnecessary to do so. Ghosts are OP vs Zerg T3, I will 100% admit to that. It needs to be fixed. We do NOT, however, need to "fix" it vs the entire game, just the particular instance (Zerg T3)
Minus to massive would solve this problem. Suddenly snipe does half damage to Zerg T3 (and other massives), and still retains its usefulness vs early ghost TvT and other fast ghost builds.
In other words, ghosts would actually be balanced with Blizzard's changes.
Ghosts have long been overpowered against both Protoss and Zerg (ever since the resource change). EMP is still devastating to Protoss and snipe is still a very good skill against literally every Zerg unit.
On February 15 2012 04:18 Torenhire wrote: Some of you bring up a good point in that they have never done a minus damage modifier before...brings us to an interesting dilemma now lol.
They could just do "35 (+15 vs non-massive)"
On February 15 2012 04:22 KawaiiRice wrote:
On February 15 2012 04:19 Jono7272 wrote:
On February 15 2012 04:09 Johnny_Vegas wrote: qxc's suggestion is obviously better than what Blizz has planned, but what I wonder is does the SC2 engine even allow for something like "-25 damage to Massive". So far we've only seen bonus damage, not subtraction damage.
I'm sure it wouldn't be a problem. If they can do bonus to massive, why wouldn't they be able to do subtraction.
its so easy you can do it yourself in the map editor O_O!
Figured as much haha.
"non-massive" might not be a category allowable for assigning bonus damage to either. My point is qxc's suggestion is obviously the best, but maybe Blizz can't figure out how to make a change like that without changes to the editor.
Like KawaiiRice said, you can do subtractions anyway.
I also was wondering about this. I had the power of snipe demonstrated to me when my friend and I were coming up with some interesting 2v2 strategies and used ghosts as an integral part of our armies early. What do any of you think about a change in the energy cost of snipe? It would not prevent ghosts from being very effective against brood lords and ultras, but after they do their damage, the energy should be low enough that their cloak runs out. I thought this might be an effective way to nerf them a bit vs tier 3 units.
Tbh when I read the ghost nerf I thought "Ok if snipe is OP vs BL/Ultras, why not just nerf their damage vs massive since there are only two massive biological units in the game?" I'm glad someone on SOTG came up with this, since Blizzard might actually listen to them.
On February 15 2012 04:33 coL.CatZ wrote: awesome post kfc
On February 15 2012 04:27 Gheed wrote: Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes.
It doesn't matter what's written on the spell description, as that is not what the SC2 engine uses, that's just flavor text for the player. I'm saying that until someone really familiar with the SC2 editor explains otherwise, its a possibility that Blizz can't make a change like qxc suggests because of a limitation in the engine. Considering no such "subtraction" damage yet exists in the game, I think its a very real possibility. Also there is no bonus damage in the game that only affects non-massive, or for that matter, non-air, etc...
Why buff to 50 damage with snipe? You could 3 shot zealots, or emp and 2 shot. Potentially zealots would lose 2/3rds of their health if enough ghosts are out and that would mutilate toss armies automatically. The current change seems fine as ghosts become what they were designed to be, a highly specialised unit capable of murdering casters. Having it murder other stuff really effectively too is strange in my opinion.
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
45 hp marines shouldn't survive one snipe either imo though.
Snipe should be changed to have a 20% chance to headshot and the ghost should immediately proceed to high 5 the closest Near by ghost
On February 15 2012 04:35 LucidityDark wrote: Why buff to 50 damage with snipe? You could 3 shot zealots, or emp and 2 shot. Potentially zealots would lose 2/3rds of their health if enough ghosts are out and that would mutilate toss armies automatically. The current change seems fine as ghosts become what they were designed to be, a highly specialised unit capable of murdering casters. Having it murder other stuff really effectively too is strange in my opinion.
Due to zerg regeneration, it takes 3 45 damage snipes to kill a 90 hp infestor (it regens 1 hp after getting sniped). The only other interactions affected by a buff to 50 damage would be vs roaches and zealots, both of which would be killed by 3 snipes instead of getting sniped 3 times and then having 10 or 15 hp leftover, respectively.
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
45 hp marines shouldn't survive one snipe either imo though.
Snipe should be changed to have a 20% chance to headshot and the ghost should immediately proceed to high 5 the closest Near by ghost
The idea behind snipe ignoring armor is that the sniper round hits a vulnerable spot like the head or neck that is also weakly armored. Funny idea though .
I totally agree with qxc and someone should make a pool about this change. Think this way, now we can not even one-shot "a zergling". Let me ask you a question Blizzard. You are making a "solo operative" unit and give him ability called "snipe" and this sniper can NOT one-shot any unit at all. Are you kidding!?
I can understand if SC2 engine don't allow "subtraction damage" (if this is true, it's broken at the beggining) but i want to ask another question. How can you expect to make "balance" by only "adding" something at one side ?
This needs to happen, don't make ghosts irrelevant in other matchups just because they are OP against tier 3 Zerg. 35 base damage + 15 to non-massive units will accomplish what Blizzard wanted to do without making it to where ghost can't even snipe a zergling in one shot... pathetic.
On February 15 2012 04:27 Gheed wrote: Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes.
It doesn't matter what's written on the spell description, as that is not what the SC2 engine uses, that's just flavor text for the player. I'm saying that until someone really familiar with the SC2 editor explains otherwise, its a possibility that Blizz can't make a change like qxc suggests because of a limitation in the engine. Considering no such "subtraction" damage yet exists in the game, I think its a very real possibility. Also there is no bonus damage in the game that only affects non-massive, or for that matter, non-air, etc...
You are pretty naive if you think the SC2 engine can't handle -25 against massive. Go play a tower defense or something, look at all the damage types they have.
On February 15 2012 04:38 Alanore wrote: I totally agree with qxc and someone should make a pool about this change. Think this way, now we can not even one-shot "a zergling". Let me ask you a question Blizzard. You are making a "solo operative" unit and give him ability called "snipe" and this sniper can NOT one-shot any unit at all. Are you kidding!?
I can understand if SC2 engine don't allow "subtraction damage" (if this is true, it's broken at the beggining) but i want to ask another question. How can you expect to make "balance" by only "adding" something at one side ?
With the current snipe nerf, Ghosts with +3 attack would do more damage with their regular attacks (vs light) than with snipe, which is just retarded.
On February 15 2012 04:39 Artifex wrote: Ghosts are meant to be anti-casters, be glad you still have other options to deal with things (that are not as strong, but at least doable).
Blizzard didn't invent the specific and complete role of every unit in the game, nor should they. Innovative use of ghosts makes the game more interesting both to play and watch. Also, saying "be glad" as if ghosts are more of a luxury than a necessity vs certain non-caster units makes it sound like you think Terran doesn't need some sort of all around lategame unit.
On February 15 2012 03:20 zul wrote: why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
Because combating infestor on top of ZT3 is very difficult(3 snipes to kill infestor), banking on the infestor taking some random extra dmg to kill it when it sits @ 1 health or something is kinda dumb, he is making the math like this so it 2 shots infestor, which is totally valid given the situation.
you dont need to kill infestors to make them useless for the battle. EMP solves. Besides that, the whole terran army should be capable to make the 1hp disappear very very fast. infestors are made of paper
On February 15 2012 04:27 Gheed wrote: Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes.
It doesn't matter what's written on the spell description, as that is not what the SC2 engine uses, that's just flavor text for the player. I'm saying that until someone really familiar with the SC2 editor explains otherwise, its a possibility that Blizz can't make a change like qxc suggests because of a limitation in the engine. Considering no such "subtraction" damage yet exists in the game, I think its a very real possibility. Also there is no bonus damage in the game that only affects non-massive, or for that matter, non-air, etc...
You are pretty naive if you think the SC2 engine can't handle -25 against massive. Go play a tower defense or something, look at all the damage types they have.
Hey I didn't say it was impossible, just was questioning it. And you'll be happy to know that I fired up the Map editor to figure it out myself, and YES it is possible to make Ghost's Snipe do -25 to massive. I tested it in the unit tester, worked fine. Cool, I just wanted to make sure, but thanks for calling me naive for not knowing the intricacies of the map editor, and no I don't play tower defense maps sorry.
On February 15 2012 04:38 Alanore wrote: I totally agree with qxc and someone should make a pool about this change. Think this way, now we can not even one-shot "a zergling". Let me ask you a question Blizzard. You are making a "solo operative" unit and give him ability called "snipe" and this sniper can NOT one-shot any unit at all. Are you kidding!?
I can understand if SC2 engine don't allow "subtraction damage" (if this is true, it's broken at the beggining) but i want to ask another question. How can you expect to make "balance" by only "adding" something at one side ?
With the current snipe nerf, Ghosts with +3 attack would do more damage with their regular attacks (vs light) than with snipe, which is just retarded.
Definitely agree with pretty much everything. Snipe should be -25 to massive, since that directly impacts the imbalance in question (ghosts owning Zerg T3). This is a terrible change, that just pidgeon-holes yet another unit into a role.
Yeah your idea is a lot better cause if Blizzard implement their way of nerfing the ghost they remove the ghost all together. The ghost will be used for EMP only. And nukes ofc....
i agree. I play protoss and have come to the conclusion that terran<protoss after emp nerf+immortal range buff. It seems terran struggles the most with upgraded zealots, so leaving snipe as base 50 i think would lead to some interesting play, including more of those extremely difficult but effective "OMG WTF HOW DID HE JUST ________" micro moments viewers can really appreciate, such as storms and vulture micro from BW. This would be a great example of pushing the limits of smart casting to do something really incredible, rather than just blanket emp or storm or fungal or whatever
On February 15 2012 03:20 zul wrote: why would you buff it from 45 to 50? I like most of what you`re proposing in this blog, but I don`t see the reason to buff snipe. Leave it 45 damage and reduce it by 15 versus massive.
Because combating infestor on top of ZT3 is very difficult(3 snipes to kill infestor), banking on the infestor taking some random extra dmg to kill it when it sits @ 1 health or something is kinda dumb, he is making the math like this so it 2 shots infestor, which is totally valid given the situation.
you dont need to kill infestors to make them useless for the battle. EMP solves. Besides that. the whole terran army should be capable to make the 1hp disappear very very fast. infestors are made of paper
Infestors kept at proper distance should only be targetable by siege tanks and ghosts, and the huge size of infestors (compared to high templar and ghosts) makes them more resistant to EMP even if they're clumped. That reason alone is why infestors are almost always sniped and not EMP'd.
I couldn't agree more with what you just written here, Kevin. And I think, that what CatZ proposed on the SotG on sunday is the best thing, that Blizz can do with the ghost (he said 50 damage -15 vs massive, for those who didn't watch last SotG)
One thing that you have to keep in mind is their effectiveness against Overseers. One big issue that I have seen is that snipe range, and overseer detection range only differ by 1. Sniping the overseers means that the ghosts have free rain over the rest of the army. Fungal really isn't an answer hear because ghosts are anti-infestor as well. What you end up with is a unit that can cloak, but also hard counters all detection options other than spore crawlers.
On February 15 2012 04:38 Alanore wrote: I totally agree with qxc and someone should make a pool about this change. Think this way, now we can not even one-shot "a zergling". Let me ask you a question Blizzard. You are making a "solo operative" unit and give him ability called "snipe" and this sniper can NOT one-shot any unit at all. Are you kidding!?
I can understand if SC2 engine don't allow "subtraction damage" (if this is true, it's broken at the beggining) but i want to ask another question. How can you expect to make "balance" by only "adding" something at one side ?
With the current snipe nerf, Ghosts with +3 attack would do more damage with their regular attacks (vs light) than with snipe, which is just retarded.
While I think there's merit to the idea of making it -dmg vs. massive as opposed to +dmg vs psionic (??), why should the base damage of snipe go up from 45 (as it is now) to 50 (as you proposed)? Perhaps 45 (-20 dmg vs. massive) would be better?
I agree almost fully. The only thing I don't agree with is that they wont be used simply because they're not cost effective. All that matters in an endgame army is that something is food effective. Otherwise no one would ever make ultralisks in any game. Vs zerg I don't think ghosts will be used less as they will fill the exact same role but do it in a balanced fashion. Vs protoss though I can understand it making zealots even stronger which is kind of ridiculous. I think the zealots being sturdier to snipes might be the biggest problem of the way they patches this honestly.
While the original post seems quite well thought out and reasonable, everyone (including the OP) seem to be ignoring the fact that Ghosts actually have very good survivability and decent dps even without using snipe. :l
I do agree that multi-faceted units that can be effective if played correctly in more than a handful of scenarios are cool, it's just not how the rest of SC2 is designed. Having ONE unit with so many applications when every other unit in game is essentially one-dimensional really makes no sense at all.
Again, I'm not saying that it's good to have one-dimensional units - but it's how all of Starcraft 2 is, with the exception of Ghosts and, to a lesser extent, Ravens.
but really, if you are going to nerf the ghost to practically unusable, I think spectres would be a good compromise. Ghosts are now useless. Now snipe does less damage than fungal to workers. Sure you get 3 shots, but fungal can hit like ten. Snipe is now an anti caster spell, which it was before. I would like spectres.
I agree 100% Just because the Ghosts is too strong against 1 or 2 units doesnt mean its strong against others. Nerfing it this much would kill its potential for doing anything else.
Anyway this is for balance korean server, no other ! Playing terran late game is extemly hard, one mistake and you loose ! Playing toss ? Just warp unit any where u want,a move + storm. Zerg ? Just camping all game until u have 85 drones then spam units a move. Terran ? Micro, macro all game but still losing to a move.
Coming from a Protoss player, I have no qualms with giving snipe a 50 (-X damage to massive) stat. And I think the 25 base damage is a pretty big nerf.
On February 15 2012 03:24 CrtBalorda wrote: Waw a lot of effor put into this. I completly aggree. A bit wierd that blizzard made this change when they put so much thought into thair balance changes and qxc just comes up with a better solution on state of the game in 5 seconds
Agreement. I would really like to hear a valid counter-argument on their part. It even seems that implementing his solution (raising base slightly and adding a -massive modifier) is just as simple as their solution (lowering the damage and adding +psionic modifier).
Excellent Post. I sure hope Blizzard is not set in stone on this and is taking into account such reasonable propositions as this. Thank you qxc for your well-reasoned and well-articulated post.
I love this change from blizzard, cause watching TvZ was horrible and it pissed me off to watch, and I don't even play zerg. Ghosts deserve this, just because all the trouble they've caused through the year(s)
On February 15 2012 03:24 CrtBalorda wrote: Waw a lot of effor put into this. I completly aggree. A bit wierd that blizzard made this change when they put so much thought into thair balance changes and qxc just comes up with a better solution on state of the game in 5 seconds
Agreement. I would really like to hear a valid counter-argument on their part. It even seems that implementing his solution (raising base slightly and adding a -massive modifier) is just as simple as their solution (lowering the damage and adding +psionic modifier).
Isn't it obvious? 1-shoting Zerglings with snipe is just way OP
Snipe was nerfed with the intent on making it weaker vs Zerg late game units aka Ultralisks and Broodlords. This change is perfect and makes it remain viable for everything else. Ghosts are an extremely expensive unit and should be powerful. Not fill a small niche.
The proposed higher base damage+reduction versus massive does make intuitive sense. Solves the lategame ZvT issue without hurting the usefulness of the Ghost otherwise.
That being said, I prefer the 25+25 to what we had before...the lost utility of Ghosts TvT (where they are important but not standard) and vs banelings/mutalisks (which Terran can deal with well enough sans Ghosts) is worth the balancing of lategame ZvT (though if Zerg becomes too strong now we'll be second-guessing the change, but I think Terran will still thrive at high levels as it always seems to do).
I agree the changes make them costly vs anything else but I disagree with a ghost army being able to clean up the leftover mutas/banelings/etc or the engaging mutas/blings at lategame just because you made 15 of the same unit. How is zerg meant to deal with ghosts lategame efficiently if T makes ~10 or so regardless of zerg unit comp?
We're meant to use infestors to fungal - when they get 2 shot? or we're meant to get ultras/broodlords in range then fungal then baneling?
I agree with you that making them viable in TvT would be great and improve the matchup depth but having them 1 shot banelings and 2 shot mutas is still debateable , especially when other terran units have great efficiency vs those units anyway.
Ghosts do 45 base damage to non-massive units Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same.
Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, and Infestors will be the same against Ghosts. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ.
Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes)
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
Combat shield marines have 55 hp and therefore will not die to a 50 damage snipe without stimming, in which case they would die to a 45 damage snipe. You cannot snipe banshees. Ghosts being able to 2 shot other ghosts instead of 3 shotting them wouldn't make anything imbalanced. As I said earlier, the only thing that changes significantly is that roaches and zealots now die in 3 shots instead of taking 3 snipes and then having 10 or 15 hp left over.
On February 15 2012 05:21 RoboBob wrote: Ghosts do 45 base damage to non-massive units Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same.
Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, while staying the same vs Infestors. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ.
Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes)
The problem with your proposed BC changes is that corruptors hard counter battlecruisers and BCs are not that greatly effective against ultralisks, so zerg can fall back on their tech switching to easily destroy BCs anyway. BCs also only have 6 range and are vulnerable to neural parasite.
On February 15 2012 05:19 Haustka wrote: ... how about getting rid of the snipe cause like infestor and high temp, they cant attack units like ghosts do, they have to use the spell to do so.
if u want it to be balanced qxc, there's answer for you, no more snipe ability for ghosts. or id say even less damage on snipe to balance this game.
No offense, but you clearly have little to no experience in the situations where snipe becomes required. If a protoss spreads his high templar, EMP becomes a big waste of energy and snipe needs to be used instead. On top of that, zerg is already favored in the lategame at the pro level vs terran (and on ladder zerg is even more favored), and removing snipe would mean that zerg could just go BL/infestor into ultra and the terran won't be able to stop it even if he knows it's coming unless he is a far superior player than the zerg or the zerg makes a big mistake in army control.
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote: Things you want to snipe Marine Marauder Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Baneling Hydralisk Mutalisk Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
And that's the problem right there.
EMP, extremely good versus everything Protoss. Snipe, very good vs anything Zerg. This is so much the case that the other good caster unit of Terran (Ravens) isn't even used.
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
Perhaps that isn't how it should be, however? For example High Templars can't start one shotting units after they have stormed the entire army. They can't even attack normally.
However, I think the Ghost change is perhaps a bit excessive in some ways but your suggestion would still make Ghosts a killer unit against everything and even more so than before against certain units.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. For the same reason they also couldn't 3 shot Banshees, at best they could EMP their energy off and auto attack, neither of which would be affected.
Very nice blog QXC. Very descriptive, and well laid out. This is the best idea to 'fix' the ghost, while keeping it fun and encouraging of unique playstyles.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable.
So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable. For the same reason they also couldn't 3 shot Banshees, at best they could EMP their energy off and auto attack, neither of which would be affected.
Was just about to post that. The point of the 25+25 to Psionic was so that ghosts could two-shot infestors with snipe, which is why QXC is using that number. I mean heck even if the change got made to 45 - 20 vs massive it would still be alright. With EMP decreased radius it's hard to hit the amount of infestors you need while not getting fungalfucked.
On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote:
So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
That would be best case scenario I think, if that amount of modifiers were allowed.
I already agreed with you when you talked about this on State of the Game recently, qxc. Instead of lowering the damage of Snipe across the board, massive units should simply receive less damage to make Tier 3 zerg sniping a little harder.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable.
So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too.
Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable.
So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too.
Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed.
Yeah, 46-47 damage (-21-22 vs massive) seems a lot better. Good call.
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote: Things you want to snipe Marine Marauder Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Baneling Hydralisk Mutalisk Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
And that's the problem right there.
EMP, extremely good versus everything Protoss. Snipe, very good vs anything Zerg. This is so much the case that the other good caster unit of Terran (Ravens) isn't even used.
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote:Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd
Perhaps that isn't how it should be, however? For example High Templars can't start one shotting units after they have stormed the entire army. They can't even attack normally.
However, I think the Ghost change is perhaps a bit excessive in some ways but your suggestion would still make Ghosts a killer unit against everything and even more so than before against certain units.
It's not that ghosts are so good that ravens aren't used. It's that ravens are so ineffective in doing anything other than providing mobile detection and PDDs. Snipe is actually NOT good vs everything zerg, it's just in the math. Ghosts without energy do something like 13.3 base DPS, which is double the base dps of unstimmed, unupgraded marines, so they are not cost effective at all without energy. Ghosts cost 200/100, high templar cost 50/150 and can morph into archons in pairs.. The comparisons you make are fairly void of any math, which invalidates them.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
Combat shield marines have 55hp, banshees and archons aren't biologic.
And Blizzard said pros don't know anything about balance. The fools. Simply transforming +25 psionic to -25 massive is a great and amazingly simple idea that I wonder why Blizzard didn't come up with themselves.
On February 15 2012 05:15 SovSov wrote: why do ghosts need 50 base snipe damage?
why not keep the 45 base damage and THEN reduce to massive.
to me, it sounds like QxC has alterior motives and wants ghost buffed in other aspects. i dont see why else he'd want 50 base damage still. things QxC wants to be able to do: 3 shot zealots, 1 shot combat shield marines, 3 shot banshees, 2 shot ghosts, 3 shot roaches etc
i agree, it should be a reduction to massive instead, but i dont get why QxC has to slyly propose the change to buff snipe at the same time vs so many other units.
oh well, just wanted to point out that QxC's ghost bias is trying to push for a ghost buff (which would arguably make the ghost better overall)
everyone is ignoring the fact that 50 base damage to all non-massive units is a HUGE buff and jumping on the bandwagon. i knew QxC had a bias when i heard him on SotG say it should be 50 base damage with a 10 reduction (lol? really qxc? is that what you want? a 5 damage reduction from what it is right now? that would be an overall buff to the ghost, no argument)
50 base damage would change the match ups incredibly. also, no one seems to point out that with 25+25psi that ghosts are better vs archons..
The reason for the 50 damage rather than 45 was because Blizzard said they were wanting the 50 damage number (vs psionic in their numbers) so that Infestors could also be killed with 2 Snipes instead of 3 because of the difficulty of effective EMP's vs a unit of their size. Because of Zerg regen, Infestors took 90 damage and regenerated 1 leaving them on 1 health. Therefore 50 damage was a round number that resolved this and I think that's why qxc used that number.
I think trying to argue that Terran would start going mass Znipe vs Roach and Zealot because of a 5 damage increase is also a bit silly honestly. That's just not going to happen. In fact were a Terran to want to use 3 Snipes per Roach a lot I'd start producing a lot of Roaches because of how badly ineffective that would be.
As to vs Archons, no one is pointing out because it can only target Bio units, and Archons aren't bio and so are completely untargettable.
So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
Personally I wouldn't mind that, but for the 5 damage being so minor given how Ghosts are actually used that just seems nedlessly complicated. I mean technically even 46 base damage would solve the issue. But really anything around that I'd be fine with too.
Really I was just addressing the concerns in the other post, as someone who is a happy Zerg player seeing Ghosts get nerfed.
Yeah, 46-47 damage (-21-22 vs massive) seems a lot better. Good call.
lol.
I should also add I was using that 46 example as a kind of throw away joke, not a real suggestion. It would fix the issue of Infestor regen, in the same way +5 psionic would, or 50 base damage or any of those options. I don't really mind how it ends up was the point, just that I agree it would be nice for Terran if Snipe would 2 shot Infestors, but that the change vs tier 3 Zerg is needed.
I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the change vs zerg T3 was not needed, lol. Maybe the most pro-terran fanboys.
I'm sticking with the suggestion qxc threw out, 50 damage base - 25 to massive. If Blizzard thinks that 50 base damage is too much, then they can work on a 45 + 5 Psionic - 25 Massive or w/e. I really think that's the best bet. As a lot of us do here, anyways.
qxc, that is by far the most elegant solution I've seen. Why nerf the ghost's limited versatility when fixing the problem (sniping hive tech units) could be dealt with directly? The game is much more entertaining when units are designed for versatility, none of this hard-counter caster vs caster baloney.
On February 15 2012 05:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Thanks, good read. This has my vote. Mostly due to ghost innovation being stopped by this patch.
Exactly, I tried to emphasize this in my post to Al Bundy. It's not so much that 25 + 25 Psionic is game-ruining or whatever, or that it will make the ghost 100% useless...it's just that it all of a sudden makes the ghost worthless to anything but very specific situations. There's no reason for that, it only needs fixing in one specific way right now. If it turns out that 50 - 25 massive is imba or whatever, then they can scale it back down to 45 - 25 to massive, or whatever.
I completely agree with you. I had the same idea yesterday, and I was actually gonna make a post about it after reading this. I really do think the ghost nerf is needed against the massive zerg units, but that is really it. I've had someone use early ghosts against me in tvt and my god was that painful. Before I knew what happened I lost 2 marines.
Props on the article QxC. It was well done. I hope blizz sees it.
I agree with this, and the other points brought up in SotG ep 62.
At the very least, snipe could go down to 35 base, any lower and snipe just becomes almost pointless. Against DTs/ HTs/ infestors and even other ghosts, EMP is a better option than snipe anyways (despite the higher mana cost). 25 + 25 will make snipe even rarer than neural parasite.
On February 15 2012 05:48 architecture wrote: I don't understand the point of these conversation when everyone just hand waves, and brings no numbers or math to back up their ideas.
What do you mean? What numbers or math do you need other than what has been posted?
Loved the ghost in tvt, it is good vs hellion drop, extremely good vs banshee and marines, now I wouldn't be able to use it sincce marines will be too effective and a ghost drop to kill workers wouldn't cross my mind anymore...
I'm in full agreement with this blog. Something tells me however that this will not be addressed in this patch, I think Blizzard will ship the patch, and in the best case scenario it will be retracted later on.
What's extra problematic is that SC2 doesn't use subtractive damage, but additive damage. This in itself is not a problem, but qxc's change would need subtractive damage, and that would (if I'm not mistaken) the Ghost the only unit with that kind of damage. I don't think Blizzard would like that.
So as said, I agree with the blog, but I sadly don't think it will be fixed right now.
This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Thumbs up. Ghosts should be nerfed, but not their damage. Reduce snipe range by 1. Reduce hp. Increase their cost (namely gas). Increase their supply. Pick one (or a combination) of these so ghosts aren't so "universal" as they are now. But the damage nerf completely kills ghost innovation and just creates another overly specialized unit in SC2, which SC2 already has way too many of ... thanks to a convoluted damage system.
That change would make ghost kill zealots in two snipes, after EMP instead of 3, right? That would be kind of achieve a not-wanted change, as I see it, since I don't see ghosts needing a buff for TvP. Apart from that I do think that a change like that would make a lot more sense. Banning ghosts from early-mid TvT would be so sad! :S
On February 15 2012 05:21 RoboBob wrote: Ghosts do 45 base damage to non-massive units Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same.
Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, while staying the same vs Infestors. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ.
Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes)
The problem with your proposed BC changes is that corruptors hard counter battlecruisers and BCs are not that greatly effective against ultralisks, so zerg can fall back on their tech switching to easily destroy BCs anyway. BCs also only have 6 range and are vulnerable to neural parasite.
The entire point of my proposed change is to nerf Ghosts vs Zerg T3 while giving Terran more options to kill Zerg T3. The reason why I specifically suggested buffing the BC Air-to-Air attack was to make BCs better vs Corruptors without damaging other matchups.
The problem with Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra is that if you overmake Vikings, you have no way to punish the Zerg for losing air control. And because you can't rely on just Vikings or just MM, you must make a shit ton of Ghosts to be at least somewhat good against everything. However, if BCs were better, then Terran suddenly would have a way to really punish the Zerg for tech switching out of Spire. It would force the Zerg to cycle in more Hydra/Infestor/Queen to deal with the BCs, which can, in turn, be countered by other Terran units. And so on and so forth.
Also, BCs need to be vulnerable to NP. Otherwise Zerg will have no counters to BCs at all. It's tough to find a Terran unit that is strong against Hive units like BL/Ultra, but is weak to Lair units like Infestor/Hydra. (Other than the Marine) But BCs can fit into that role, as long as they are improved vs Corruptors.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Great write up
Well, be careful what you wish for. Both Idra and Nestea have made a case for nerfing Ghosts into the ground in numerous interviews. Pro feedback is not always the best way to balance a game. Pros may have the best experience and knowledge, but they also have the worst bias.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable.
That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep.
On February 15 2012 05:21 RoboBob wrote: Ghosts do 45 base damage to non-massive units Ghosts do 30 base damage to massive units Increase the Battlecruiser Air to Air attack damage from 6 to 8 (to match its ground attack). Leave it's Air to Ground attack the same.
Viola. Zerg T3 will be better against Ghosts, while staying the same vs Infestors. But Terran will gain a new high tech way to efficiently kill Zerg T3 without disrupting early/midgame TvZ.
Lategame TvT and TvP will also be slightly improved, but not so drastically that it will unbalance either matchup. (especially considering that Protoss is getting a Phoenix buff...although I will admit that both the Fleet Beacon and Interceptors could use some cost reduction on top of current changes)
The problem with your proposed BC changes is that corruptors hard counter battlecruisers and BCs are not that greatly effective against ultralisks, so zerg can fall back on their tech switching to easily destroy BCs anyway. BCs also only have 6 range and are vulnerable to neural parasite.
The entire point of my proposed change is to nerf Ghosts vs Zerg T3 while giving Terran more options to kill Zerg T3. The reason why I specifically suggested buffing the BC Air-to-Air attack was to make BCs better vs Corruptors without damaging other matchups.
The problem with Infestor/Broodlord/Ultra is that if you overmake Vikings, you have no way to punish the Zerg for losing air control. And because you can't rely on just Vikings or just MM, you must make a shit ton of Ghosts to be at least somewhat good against everything. However, if BCs were better, then Terran suddenly would have a way to really punish the Zerg for tech switching out of Spire. It would force the Zerg to cycle in more Hydra/Infestor/Queen to deal with the BCs, which can, in turn, be countered by other Terran units. And so on and so forth.
Also, BCs need to be vulnerable to NP. Otherwise Zerg will have no counters to BCs at all. It's tough to find a Terran unit that is strong against Hive units like BL/Ultra, but is weak to Lair units like Infestor/Hydra. (Other than the Marine) But BCs can fit into that role, as long as they are improved vs Corruptors.
I wasn't saying they shouldn't be vulnerable to NP. What I'm saying is that the infestor/corruptor combination crushes viking/battlecruiser and it needs to be that way to avoid breaking the game.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable.
That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep.
Snipe has been used frequently on other units, you just haven't seen the games in question. This thread is not an over-exaggeration and the issue lies in that Zerg can tech switch rapidly while Terran can't, which means that Terran has to have a unit that is well rounded, such as the ghost.
50% damage reduction is just way too much. This, however, is a logical solution to fixing an overpowered unit without breaking it completely. Good read. Hope Blizzard makes some changes to the patch before its shipped.
Snipe has been used frequently on other units, you just haven't seen the games in question. This thread is not an over-exaggeration and the issue lies in that Zerg can tech switch rapidly while Terran can't, which means that Terran has to have a unit that is well rounded, such as the ghost.
I'm sorry I said top tier of competition. That's basically all I watch. If someone from the lower brackets of some tournament uses snipe against something other than massive zerg units or casters then honestly it's just not on the same level. I don't know when tech switching was brought into the argument, but that's completely irrelevant. Terran has to have a well rounded unit, and you think it should be the ghost? No, the well rounded Terran unit you're looking for is the marine. In the top tier of competition (where it matters, basically), the nerf will only affect ghosts versus massive zerg units. That's really what it boils down to. Sure, you can do the change mentioned in the OP but it's unnecessary.
Excellent point. I thought so when you made it on SOTG, and here its laid out even more clearly and concisely.
The best part is, a snipe ability that does less damage to massive even makes sense for the "lore" (which Blizzard does occasionally seem to care about for whatever reason). So do it, Blizzard. Make the right decision.
The patch is only necessary to nerf ghost effectiveness vs Tier 3 zerg. We've seen little to no evidence of ghosts being overpowered in other scenarios (such as sniping marines, zealots, etc.) so why should they be nerfed against those units? It actually makes sense for a tier 2 unit like the ghost to be a soft counter against tier 1 units like zealots, marines and zerglings. In general, snipe is just a bad ability. blizzard designed it as an APM dump (you can't do anything else while you're sniping), and that was a terrible design choice. But to try and rectify it at this stage of release is silly. In fact, it just becomes more of an APM dump now since you need more snipes to kill things. No good player will use it anymore when they could instead by using their apm to scout or drop instead of sniping for barely any additional damage.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable.
That's exactly the intent of the unit, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Terran is already incredibly versatile, and the ghost has fit this niche all along anyway. There's a lot of nice hypothetical situations of pre-nerf snipe in this thread but none I've seen in the top tier of competition. I'd say just about every snipe I've seen has been used against massive zerg units or casters. Personally, I see this thread as an over exaggeration accompanied by a flock of sheep.
So your position is that because people haven't done it, we should make sure that they can't do it?
That makes no sense. Snipe is an ability that has a lot of potential uses that, for whatever reason, people haven't adopted it to. Since it's stupid to assume we know what the meta will look like in a year's time (and for HOTS particularly), why take away something that enocurages invoation with a unit that requires micro?
I don't like this approach to patching. Wait until the community explodes over a change, and then change it to what was probably originally intended all along just to make it look like "our idea." In the meantime we have to wait for another patch to get the "real" ghost change. Seems like it's all planned drama, but who knows, maybe my tin foil hat is overkill and Blizzard's balance team is just as bumbling as we like to think.
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Great write up
Well, be careful what you wish for. Both Idra and Nestea have made a case for nerfing Ghosts into the ground in numerous interviews. Pro feedback is not always the best way to balance a game. Pros may have the best experience and knowledge, but they also have the worst bias.
Noone questions that ghosts needed a nerf, but there is a difference between nerfing something into the ground and balancing it appropriately. I don't think any mature, clear thinking pro would logically suggest a unit like the ghost being made redundant.
While I agree with everything else (I think that snipe should be left at the old 45 but do 25 to massive) I have one major issue with what you're saying.
This isn't just a small nerf being proposed. It's almost a 50% reduction in damage. It'd be like if marines now did 4 base damage. It's a big decrease and any unit that would take 25 damage instead of the old 45 wouldn't be worth sniping anymore. The ghost just wouldn't be cost efficient.
This is absolutely untrue for the late game TvZ issue. This has to be thought of in an actual game scenario. Terrans shift queue up snipes. So what's going to be different after this patch? The Terran is going to have to shift click a brood lord 4 extra times, and there will be one other minimal delay in the 4 extra snipe animations. So being very generous, the Brood Lord in question will live maybe 1-2 game seconds longer with the nerf, and accomplish Blizzard's desired goal by making it cost the 100 extra energy to kill a BL.
That's why on paper, it looks like "OMG 50% NERF WHAT?!?!" but will change very little about late game TvZ except the fact that more ghosts and energy is needed for large scale battles with lots of Zerg T3.
However, like I said, they do need to change Snipe to 45 base damage and then -20 vs massive (so the 25 stays the same) because ghosts do have other uses than in late game TvZ. But other than that, this change is not as unreasonable as people are making it out to be.
On February 15 2012 06:00 linduxed wrote: I'm in full agreement with this blog. Something tells me however that this will not be addressed in this patch, I think Blizzard will ship the patch, and in the best case scenario it will be retracted later on.
What's extra problematic is that SC2 doesn't use subtractive damage, but additive damage. This in itself is not a problem, but qxc's change would need subtractive damage, and that would (if I'm not mistaken) the Ghost the only unit with that kind of damage. I don't think Blizzard would like that.
So as said, I agree with the blog, but I sadly don't think it will be fixed right now.
Easy enough fix. Just make Snipe have bonus damage to non-massive.
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Here's another opportunity for Blizz to prove they listen to the community. Come on, you got the map pool right, so why not keep the streak going?! Nerf dmg to massive!
lol i should have just made my blog post about this exact thing 3 days ago. I posted in another thread about this in sc2 general proposing the exact same changes.
Still 2 shot infestors, do reasonable damage to other units and fix the broodlord problem without hurting tvz or any other match-up for that matter. even as a zerg player i dont think snipe has any utility now in tvz other than trying to snipe infestors which makes it more like a viking or a corruptor in that it only has one use. To me having to counter a caster with another caster that has no other use exept killing infestors is pretty fucking stupid.
Cant even 1 shot i ling that costs 25 mins and 0.5 supply? Please. Even as a zerg player i can say thats retarded.
On February 15 2012 06:28 Saltydizzle wrote: The patch is completely necessary.
no one will disagree with you. The extent of the nerf is not necessary though.
I'm only plat and how much I even hate ghosts killing my BL's, this is ingenious. Make a slight damage reduction vs massive, which is where the ghosts where slightly op, killing off 5-6 t3 units very quickly. Snipe never were are real issue vs. anything else than zergs massive units.
I play P and I like this writeup. The only reason I think they're reticent to do something like this is that they don't like to add fundamentally new mechanics to fix balance issues. Having a -dmg to an attack or ability would be the only case of its kind in the game. I personally don't think that this constitutes a fundamentally new mechanic per se, but it's probably why they thought of 25+25 rather than 45-20 or whatever.
As little as my opinion matters, I'll still give it. Because I can. I don't like the idea of having straight up 50 base damage for the snipe. Here's why. The first thing this patch wants to address is late game TvZ. And though I totaly agree with qxc that we haven't seen much use of ghosts in early/mid game, qxc said that there are situations that we won't be able to see anymore at such stage, and I don't think these situation should be seen in the first place.
Going fast HT or fast Infestor is something that you can do in very specific situations, or else you get roll over (because you don't have much of anything once you run out of energy if you went for these gas expensive unit very early). The ghost already has 20 base damage against light, if you add 50 base with the snipe, I think the array of situations in which you could go early ghost would be too wide, compared to the other 2 races. Plus, since we haven't seen these situations, we don't know if the ghost is too strong or not strong enough in these situations. And this 50 damage base would be a slight buff.
For the sake of the discussion, let's say that what I just said is plain wrong, and that we just won't see much of the ghost at all post patch. Then I believe that this is to be addressed in another patch, and not in this one, mainly because that is not the main focus. If it turns out that the ghost is just too weak for mid-game play, unlike the infestor, then I believe that should be dealt with in another patch, when we actually have data to work on (unlike this one).
As the patch is, it may actually give us data to work on the ghost for these situations, because there are changes. And maybe change the ghost later on. With 50 base damage for snipe, almost nothing changes, so we won't have another point of view on the ghost and these situations.
I don't know, in my mind it made kind of sense. Maybe I did not express myself correctly.
Mr Simpson stated Blizzard read all the forums. This topic has been well represented on STOG, Reddit and most importantly on TL (probably on battle net forums too). Now let's see if they simply like to read and have a giggle or if they are truly willing to implement changes based on reason.
I just imagine the guy who came up with the idea of the current nerf opposing this to no end, so as not to look silly for not coming up with this himself and people taunting of him that someone else should be getting paid to do his job. But that's just my wild imagination at work.
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Great write up
But it's not completely useless. It's probably one of the most versatile units in the game even with the proposed changes by Blizzard. Are people forgetting EMP, nuke and cloak? Its really good base damage to light units?
I actually agree with QXC's changes, but I disagree with all of the people suddenly calling the unit 'useless' because of Blizzard's changes. That's just dishonest.
As a side note, I never liked snipe in the first place. I don't think Ghosts need an extra way of dealing with casters (they have EMP), and I don't think Terran need an extra way of disposing of banelings etc.
i love pro players to weigh in on subjects. but every other topic like this gets closed with the reasoning "stick to 1 thread" not "your bad and wrong and dont know what your talking about" WHAT MAKES QXC SO SPECIAL HU?!
Well if I was a pro level Terran as yourself I would be a bit pissed aswell. Nerf seems a bit harsh for late game Terran which already seems overwhelmingly tough against Zerg and Protoss. Lets see if it goes through on a permanent basis or is patched again in the near future.
From a more neutral point of view its really cool to see pro players get more experienced with their spell casters bringing some pretty interesting exchanges between races, but maybe ghosts are starting to get over used in TvZ like infestors were starting to get overused in ZvP.
Several people are saying that a damage penalty (50 -25 vs Massive) is unprecedented, but remember, it's not an autoattack, it's a spell, so it's not really a big deal at all.
PDD has a damned list of applicable units in the tooltip. This minus to massive would actually be far more elegant.
On February 15 2012 06:59 turdburgler wrote: i love pro players to weigh in on subjects. but every other topic like this gets closed with the reasoning "stick to 1 thread" not "your bad and wrong and dont know what your talking about" WHAT MAKES QXC SO SPECIAL HU?!
I believe it's because he posted it in blogs, and not in the strategy/general forum to be discussed.
On February 15 2012 06:02 bkrow wrote: This was great to hear during State of the Game and now that you've fleshed it out and added some great examples, it makes even more sense.
Blizzard constantly cites "pro player feedback" as a source of their balance decisions - i want to meet the pro players who sat down, thought it through and said .. "yep nerfing ghosts into the ground is good for the game overall." I don't understand why a unit has to go from overpowered to completely useless in one swoop.
Great write up
But it's not completely useless. It's probably one of the most versatile units in the game even with the proposed changes by Blizzard. Are people forgetting EMP, nuke and cloak? Its really good base damage to light units?
I actually agree with QXC's changes, but I disagree with all of the people suddenly calling the unit 'useless' because of Blizzard's changes. That's just dishonest.
Personally I never liked snipe in the first place. I don't think Ghosts need an extra way of dealing with casters (they have EMP), and I don't think Terran need an extra way of disposing of banelings etc.
Oh well.
I agree with this also. Even with the proposed nerf it is still a good unit. At least it has a basic attack that does a good amount of damage so once it's completely out of energy it's still useful vs say an infester that without energy does nothing!
I agree 100% with qxc and I'm glad a lot of pro players are stepping up and saying how wrong the change is.
While I agree that before ghosts might have been able to deal with T3 units of zerg too efficiently, I also know that, to a certain extent ghosts are required, due to the ease of tech switching the zerg has, and terran did need a relative all round unit that could deal with the tech switches.
But I don't agree with the way Blizz wants to handle it. 25 damage + 25 to psionic makes the snipe nearly useless vs certain other units, removes a good chunk of strategies, both existing and potentially untapped, and also causes massive redundancy, since ghosts already counter casters with EMP.
Qxc's change is much, much better, instead of nerfing the damage flat out, nerf the damage vs massive, as was intended in the first place, but not 25, maybe 30, that would still be a substantial 33% damage nerf but still could allow ghosts to be useful along side vikings and marauders. It reduces redundancy since snipe no longer overlaps with EMP in anti-caster role, it also improves chances of killing infestors, it doesn't remove any strategies.
The change sounds like a win-win situation.
And, I also don't understand where the major misconception of Ghost being auto-win vs T3 zerg, stems from in the first place. Mass ghost with snipe is one of the hardest and most micro intensive strategies, it rewards players for being able precisely control their ghosts, their positioning and their ability to precisely and quickly focus down the same target, without messing up the position.
Remember, just because MVP can do it consistently, and make it look easy doesn't mean it is easy. If you don't believe me, I urge you to try it out for yourself in any custom map against a buddy.
If anything more abilities should be like snipe, micro intensive, but rewarding. And I'm not mad just because the nerf is too severe, I'm also disgusted that Blizz decided to nerf one of the most micro intensive and rewarding abilities.
I'd love if they added something like stimpack for ghosts to compensate or made them cheaper.
As it stands, right now, you just can't produce enough ghosts to snipe the amount of HP the tier 3 zerg units have. There's no reason you'd make a ghost now rather than a marauder against ultras, and a ghost over marine against broodlords.
I'm guessing we'll start to see a lot more raven/marine compositions late game (before ravens get nerfed after more whining).
This whole post sounds great, but its not taking into consideration anything else that comes out of a ghost, most importantly EMP which is OP anyway. Now factor that in, now see how the balance changes are decent
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable. Things you can snipe Marine Marauder Ghost Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Mutalisk Queen Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
What units would you reasonably want to snipe (Where 3-4 snipes makes the ghost roughly pay for itself or where snipe is a good response as in the case of broodlord/viking)
Snipe isn't a ghost's only ability, or only damage output. Between EMP, cloak, nukes, and their normal (high) dps, there's plenty of benefit to ghosts already. With all of this, plus snipe, as you say, the ghost is an extremely versatile unit. What other unit in the game has anywhere near this much versatility? What justification is there that Terrans need a unit that is this versatile? As far as I can tell, pre 1.4.3 there isn't any situation, at any time in the game, where ghosts aren't useful. There may be times where you don't want to put in the investment required to get them, but once you've got them they'll always be useful. There is no other unit I can think of where this is the case.
Yes, 1.4.3 will reduce the number of things that a ghost is useful for, but IMO no more so than any other unit in the game.
Casting units in SC2 are supposed to be about energy-management, quite often you see HTs waiting for energy to storm an incoming army, or infestors that only drop infested terrans when they would rather fungal, but don't have enough energy. But you almost never see ghosts auto-attacking because they don't have enough energy for snipe (and unlike other casters they actually can attack without using energy). And that's even with them using cloak, that, unlike burrow, doesn't prevent ghosts from using their abilities.
In all of the images in the first post the ghosts had plenty of energy left, so reducing the snipe damage would maybe double the required micro, but barely change the outcome since the delay between snipes is very short. Putting a longer delay in with the current damage would be a far worse nerf than the reduced damage.
Yes, terran may need a universal unit for late TvZ to counter zerg tech switches, but it shouldn't be more effective than the hard counters, that is vikings against brood lords and marauders against ultralisks. And right now snipe energy cost feels too low for the damage it deals, making it basically infinitely available in the late game.
I dont even get how it is a reasonable nerf against zerg tier 3. The biggest reason ghost play seems so good vs Zerg when you watch MvP etc do it, is because of the maps. The only maps where I have seen it is metalopolis, shakuras plateau and shattered temple. All those maps is just split map in half and camp in the middle, which makes ghosts really good. Not to mention that good zergs have actually been able to destroy mass ghost play, they just needed time to get used to it and learn how to defeat it. The only answer to Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor as terran after this patch is Ravens with seeker missile. Seeker missiles are bad. Zerg is going to win every lategame situation if played properly from this point on. Its not something I think, it is a fact.
So what's the problem? Snipe is currently good at killing things besides tier 3 zerg but if this change goes through they wouldn't be any longer. This would take a generally versatile unit vs. bio and make it an extremely specialized anti caster unit. So let's talk about what is even snipable. Things you can snipe Marine Marauder Ghost Reaper Zealot High Templar Dark Templar Zergling Baneling Roach Hydralisk Mutalisk Queen Infestor Corruptor Broodlord Ultralisk Workers
What units would you reasonably want to snipe (Where 3-4 snipes makes the ghost roughly pay for itself or where snipe is a good response as in the case of broodlord/viking)
Snipe isn't a ghost's only ability, or only damage output. Between EMP, cloak, nukes, and their normal (high) dps, there's plenty of benefit to ghosts already. With all of this, plus snipe, as you say, the ghost is an extremely versatile unit. What other unit in the game has anywhere near this much versatility? What justification is there that Terrans need a unit that is this versatile? As far as I can tell, pre 1.4.3 there isn't any situation, at any time in the game, where ghosts aren't useful. There may be times where you don't want to put in the investment required to get them, but once you've got them they'll always be useful. There is no other unit I can think of where this is the case.
Yes, 1.4.3 will reduce the number of things that a ghost is useful for, but IMO no more so than any other unit in the game.
I suppose you've never actually used ghosts. They're so slow that they get caught by slowlings, their auto attack, albeit powerful is really slow. They can't be microed properly. Ghosts cost a lot, they can't be massed only for their auto-attacks. With the proposed changes I rather take 1½ siege tanks than a ghost.
Good points, good writeup. Hopefully Blizz listens
On an offnote, all the other changes of the patch are awesome (except we'll have to see what happens with the phoenix buff) and I love the use of user made maps in the ladder pool =)
On February 15 2012 07:37 Mantraz wrote: +3 ghosts deal 26 damage to light, with the purposed change, that means +3 ghosts deal less damage while sniping, than auto attacking.
I'm really in for the reduced damage vs massive tweak, sounds a lot more refined. Increase the range aswell perhaps?
a range increase would break the tvp templar - ghost dynamic (speaking as terran )
They might as well just keep snipe as it is now, but make it unable to target massive. That eliminates broodlords and ultras while making intuitive sense.
Snipe's energy cost isn't so low for the damage it does. I'll refer you to the other abilities that do damage and cost energy.
Storm, costs 75 energy and does 80 damage in an area over 4 seconds. While the damage looks almost like a 1-1 ratio, its actually way, way more because it deals damage in an aoe.
Fungal Growth, costs 75 energy and deals 30 damage (40 to armored) in an area over 4 seconds, and also roots units in place. While as you can see FG does almost 50% lower damage than storm, it compensates by having another effect, the root in particular is incredible for combos that involve banelings and ultras, so the lower damage is understandable.
EMP, costs 75 energy and does 100 shield and energy damage to units in an area, instant. While this theoretically does the most damage and is instant, in practice it only kills shields and energy, so its understandable to have more bang for the buck vs those.
Now, lets look at snipe. It deals 45 damage, single target and costs 25 energy. It does seem to have higher damage per energy, but at the same time it is single target, every ability mentioned above is aoe, the potential damage is much higher, and they are balanced around that potential damage.
Thus I can conclude that snipe is actually fine in terms of energy per damage ratio.
tbh the ghost vs tier3 relationship does not need to be "fixed" in the first place. Brood/corruptor/infestor has already started to show it destroys mass ghost relatively easily in late game. It will become worse after the patch.
It also makes sense that a massive unit takes less damage from being sniped. It does NOT make sense that psionic units take more damage from being sniped. lol.
On February 15 2012 07:51 KevinIX wrote: It also makes sense that a massive unit takes less damage from being sniped. It does NOT make sense that psionic units take more damage from being sniped. lol.
people (myself included) have been suggesting this nerf to snipe for months
now that qxc says it people actually listen
THE FAME BABY
On February 15 2012 07:51 KevinIX wrote: It also makes sense that a massive unit takes less damage from being sniped. It does NOT make sense that psionic units take more damage from being sniped. lol.
what makes sense should never factor into these decisions. balance is the only thing that matters.
I used to do Ghost rushes in TvT a lot... they were even pretty good for defending certain rushes. It'll be a shame that the early game utility will be completely gone now.
i have to agree, this nerf would hurt more than help,
in what i have seen in the past for both games, i feel that Starcraft 2 is getting more and more changes than what used to be in BW. maybe its just me but i feel as thought Blizzard is not allowing us to find counters to units. of course some changes should be made due to just plain old imbalance but if they nerf the ghosts there is no reason for me in any matchup to tech to ghost academy anymore.
hopefully blizzard can see this and understand the problem this has.
you're comparing Snipe to Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP... wait a second... EMP is a Ghost ability, that compares to the other two, so why exactly do Ghosts need another strong ability? Is this because of the fact that Ghosts cost 50 gas less than HTs and Infestors? Or because you don't need to research anything like Storm or Pathogen Glands to make decent use of Ghosts? (Ok you could argue about Cloak, but then you'd also have to take Burrow into account, and maybe Warp Prism for HTs.)
Ghosts are definetely less advanced along the tech tree compared to Infestors and HTs, so they really shouldn't keep up with HTs and Infestors when comparing them on a unit against unit basis.
On February 15 2012 07:50 avilo wrote: tbh the ghost vs tier3 relationship does not need to be "fixed" in the first place. Brood/corruptor/infestor has already started to show it destroys mass ghost relatively easily in late game. It will become worse after the patch.
Zerg late game has no efficient way to deal with ghosts though. The only way Terran loses ghosts easily is if the T is bad and has them all clumped to get fungaled or surrounded. Otherwise mass ghost counters all Z t3 too hard in my opinion and this is what blizzard noticed and is why they are making the change.
qxc makes a ton of great points in here though, the changes that are going to come from this nerf (because of TvZ late/end game) will reduce the room for innovation and make the ghost into quite a 1 dimensional unit. Ghosts will become strictly a unit for TvP countering HT's and still probably used in TvZ for infestors/broods it just wont be as effective.
Glad to see that from a pro player, making it sort of official.
This proposed change (reduce against massive instead of 25+25) is what I've thought, and read about, every where since the patch announcement. This is simpy common sense. But this is almost too simple of a solution, Blizzard couldn't have not think about it. Which leads me to believe TvZ late game was not the only reason for the proposed 25+25.
1°) If TvZ late game was, then the Blizzard change makes little sense in my eyes, completely changing a Terran unit (thus affecting all matchups and removing cute/effective moves like banelings marines snipe) seems totaly unreasonable.
2°) Yet some part of me can't help but think that Blizzard knows better, and had the tools to fix only declared issue of massing ghosts vs T3 Zerg (just disallow snipe vs massive, done), without affecting Ghosts as a whole.
Maybe they're trying to enforce some Raven play (could use a little buff, then, imo), or some BC play?...
---
So, I do regret the perspective of not being able to efficiently snipe banelings / marines / bio-workers, this was very occasional, not game-breaking, made the game fun and I believe was granted given the Ghosts price.
On the other hand, I do enjoy the perspective of seeing more Raven or BC/Yamato (one can dream) plays from pro-players and amateurs alike. And I still think, if the Ghosts change had to be enforced, that the Ravens could use small tweaks in the buffing direction, things like acceleration or spell costs (you name it).
In the end, assuming there was something more than just the TvZ late game behind that decision, I still believe this could have been done better, fixing the issue at hand with Z T3 while keeping the fun/cute potential of Ghosts on other situations.
qxc Very well written, I completely agree with what you said, and that was the same way I was feeling when I first read the patchnotes. Reducing the damage of snipe on everything but increasing on psionic is basically rendering the skill useless.
On February 15 2012 07:50 avilo wrote: tbh the ghost vs tier3 relationship does not need to be "fixed" in the first place. Brood/corruptor/infestor has already started to show it destroys mass ghost relatively easily in late game. It will become worse after the patch.
Zerg late game has no efficient way to deal with ghosts though. The only way Terran loses ghosts easily is if the T is bad and has them all clumped to get fungaled or surrounded. Otherwise mass ghost counters all Z t3 too hard in my opinion and this is what blizzard noticed and is why they are making the change.
qxc makes a ton of great points in here though, the changes that are going to come from this nerf (because of TvZ late/end game) will reduce the room for innovation and make the ghost into quite a 1 dimensional unit. Ghosts will become strictly a unit for TvP countering HT's and still probably used in TvZ for infestors/broods it just wont be as effective.
Zerg can easily deal with it with 1Aing broodlords in comparison to the Terran who has to have 200 apm to get every snipe off. 1 fungal on the clump of ghosts and they are all lost to broods. And to expend 100% of the ghosts energy, you have to have them all relatively in the same area otherwise you won't snipe with all ghosts at the same time and queens simply transfuse the deathball.
So yes, the brood/corruptor/infestor deathball easily counters mass ghost nowadays, which is why most Terrans have almost given up doing it in the first place. A mass ling/bane/ultra tech with infestors still alive tech switch also can destroy mass ghosts, same deal there - 1 fungal and the ghost ball is dead.
If they really are going to nerf the ghost then they should look at helping Terran late game in some way or another, whether it's reducing costs of raven/raven upgrades, adding a medivac speed upgrade...anything really at this point because it's not looking good if they keep nerfing Terran's "lategame" innovations and leave them with nothing else.
QXC's points about the ghost in the other match-ups I agree with and 99% of people will obviously agree with as well. It's disturbing to me though (and should be to everyone else) that QXC's thoughts on the ghost nerf and it's implications are more well thought out than one of the SC2 lead balance designers thoughts were...
Not everyone agrees ghosts needed to be "fixed" though, as it's a huge nerf to Terran in lategame, and Terrans are already having enough problems there as it is.
We'll just have to wait and see how they actually patch.
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
Ghost was too strong unit(before emp reduction and this nerf), those balance nerfs are welcome to every unit in game that is too strong. This game shouldn't allow free wins. And I am happy with it. More skill needed, like in BW.
On February 15 2012 08:08 Alvin853 wrote: @ Destructicon
you're comparing Snipe to Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP... wait a second... EMP is a Ghost ability, that compares to the other two, so why exactly do Ghosts need another strong ability? Is this because of the fact that Ghosts cost 50 gas less than HTs and Infestors? Or because you don't need to research anything like Storm or Pathogen Glands to make decent use of Ghosts? (Ok you could argue about Cloak, but then you'd also have to take Burrow into account, and maybe Warp Prism for HTs.)
Ghosts are definetely less advanced along the tech tree compared to Infestors and HTs, so they really shouldn't keep up with HTs and Infestors when comparing them on a unit against unit basis.
By that logic BCs and Carriers definitely need a buff seeing how Broodlords are by far the most useful among the three.
While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. Broodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
I first saw this in SOTG. And i have to agree with you qxc and say it's a brilliant idea, not to make the ghost useless vs other stuff than casters. Hope this will get some attention from blizzard!
On February 15 2012 07:41 Kare wrote: I dont even get how it is a reasonable nerf against zerg tier 3. The biggest reason ghost play seems so good vs Zerg when you watch MvP etc do it, is because of the maps. The only maps where I have seen it is metalopolis, shakuras plateau and shattered temple. All those maps is just split map in half and camp in the middle, which makes ghosts really good. Not to mention that good zergs have actually been able to destroy mass ghost play, they just needed time to get used to it and learn how to defeat it. The only answer to Brood Lord/Infestor/Corruptor as terran after this patch is Ravens with seeker missile. Seeker missiles are bad. Zerg is going to win every lategame situation if played properly from this point on. Its not something I think, it is a fact.
No dude, it's definitely just something you think.
Return ghosts their lockdown ability (upgraded to bio units!)
I remember the first videos of sc2, when the new units were presented. The first thing that shocked me was burrowing supply depots, the second was snipe shot of enemy marine with a cloaked ghost. Blizzard is changing their original idea of this ability, which is really sad.
Completely agree with QXC's blog. Nice to see a followup on state of the game. Looked like everyone (so Catz, Incontrol, JP, QXC) were in agreeance that this was a poor nerf.
All the proposed snipe nerf is doing is like an energy cost increase to snipe. But ghosts need a way to dump that 25 energy, kind of like FB for HT, and more like autoturret and IT for ravens/infestors. It's not a primary spell, but has uses. But increasing the energy cost would hurt the versatility of the ghost.
So instead, a damage nerf. And not really a nerf, it increases the ability of the ghost to deal with casters, which is what they are supposed to counter in the first place.
Being able to snipe mutas, snipe roaches, snipe out a group of banes, were all ridiculous to begin with.
While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
On February 15 2012 05:39 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: And Blizzard said pros don't know anything about balance. The fools. Simply transforming +25 psionic to -25 massive is a great and amazingly simple idea that I wonder why Blizzard didn't come up with themselves.
First of all, I think we should give everything a chance to work itself out. As a Starcraft II fan however, I agree with the idea, however I think the full 50 damage against Zerg is still too high, perhaps 25 damage+ 25 psi/armored - 25 massive (cancels with armored) or something like that would be perfect.
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
I don't think anyone is worried about snipes in TvP as long as Templars die in relatively few shots. It's the TvZ that's getting ridiculous with the proposed changes.
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD).
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
And I'm zerg.
That wouldn't fix anything, you clearly didn't read the post. 35 damage would still be next to nothing when fighting Marines or Marauders. Nobody is trying to snipe a Zergling, maybe Banelings, but 25 Ghost energy isn't worth a Zergling.
More on topic: this is a really great post by qxc, it makes a lot of sense, would really make the game better, and therefore will not be implemented by Blizzard. Apparently Blizzard still hasn't heard of qxc T.T
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
Btw you can't overmake Ghosts in TvP actually once the Toss starts to Mass Up Zealots you need in masses them. They are by far the best solution to Zealots with or without Snipe.
Blizzard is just doing what blizzard does best: when a unit is overpowered, they nerf it so it can't be used. When a unit is underpowered, they simply remove it from the game or buff it to rape everything.
However, I do think that some units are meant to NOT be built in every situation. Ghosts were already overpowered from the very beginning and look how much they needed to nerf it... and I think ghosts are still amazing. Sure, you won't be able to do as many things with them, but you can still nuke, cloak kill workers, and more importantly: EMP. We'll never know for sure until the patch hits though, so maybe try critiquing after that?
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers.
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers.
From Gold to Masters, Terran is 25-30% of the population, depending on league. Also least popular race in each of those leagues.
I'm not Terran or Zerg so I can't speak about the damage of snipe versus late-game Zerg units, but limiting the usefulness of snipe just as the Ghost is really starting to be used is a sad thing Since the snipe is really only a problem versus Broodlords and Ultralisks, perhaps there could be something that only accounts for those two specific units, because solving the relationship of those three shouldn't ruin snipe as a cool and variable ability. Seeing as how they are the only two massive/biological units in the game they could make it so snipe does less damage versus massive or something.
On February 15 2012 08:59 SecretCobraz wrote: I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD).
That's what Blizzard wants to do though.
Reapers are used in TvZ -> Reaper nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvZ again Thors are used in TvP -> Thor nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvP again EDIT: Hellions are used in TvT -> 1.4 BF nerf -> Mech is hardly viable unless you completely outclass your opponent, and even then it is a situational thing. Ghosts are used in TvZ -> Ghost nerf -> Will hardly ever be used in TvZ again
I kind of wish that Mvp or MMA played Zerg or Protoss so Terran wouldn't be getting nerfed. If you keep "fixing" the game, but they still keep winning, maybe they're just better than other players *GASP* Outside of the elite Korean elite guard of Code S Terrans, there are almost no Terrans who are successful in major tournaments who aren't a part of that group. ThorZaIN occasionally wins a tournament, SeleCT does well against non-Koreans, Kas is a beast but never seems to have the steam to power through an entire tournament. Even in Code A/Code A qualifiers, Terrans are rarely successful. And yet Terran still is constantly subject to nerfs. It's ridiculous.
Blizzard's design team has shown their shortsightedness in myopically focusing in on existing unit dynamics while ignoring potential ones (by ignoring progamer strats still in development).
Well said, QXC, your proposal is wise and better than the current proposal. Both in terms of balance, and excitement(which is more important).
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers.
From Gold to Masters, Terran is 25-30% of the population, depending on league. Also least popular race in each of those leagues.
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
I agree with your post, I tried to say basically the same thing (with uglier words) and it went unnoticed. It seems difficult to have a discussion about this in this thread.
I agree ten thousand percent. Thought the same thing when i read the patch notes, heard you on SoTG, As high masters zerg, I dont think ghost snipe should be nerfed this much.
On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote: While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
Well in my opinionn you are wrong with suggesting viability of ghosts in every situation. They are almost usless agains ling/roach ling/muta or anything that is based around lots of cheap units. And lets imagine a timing push with 20 marines and 3 siege tanks, if the ghosts are viable then with 17 marines 1 tank and 2 ghosts the push should be nearly as effective(i think it is clear that this is not the case) . Look at an infestor, it would always help to have a few of them around(versitale and not a direct counter to anything for which you dont have correct answers before) but they are an investment which is not viable all the time.
And is kind of impossible to have all the correct answers(now) or at least answer that keeps you alive(after the patch) to all the treats at one point in time, so terrans lategame would have to get to a guessing game(since their ability to react is delayed by mechanics and limited by the number of production buildings): what composition do I counter? If you guess right you have a chance to win, if you guess wrong you die(not mentioning the fact that vikings arent effective against broodlord corruptor infestor without gosu splitting)
And as far as wasting money goes any caster unit in SC2 is NEVER money wasted, unless of course it instantly dies which can happen to every race. And like every other caster unit they need support(without marines and tanks? seriously?, infestors without any lings, roaches or broodlord/corruptor)
And to express how i feel about the change, i agree with qxc
Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,,
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
based on what is there a "dwindling number"?
im not saying i support the change i just think that over reacting just hurts the arguments that its bad
Are you actually denying that the Terran population isn't reducing right now? We're less than 30% now, last I saw the numbers.
From Gold to Masters, Terran is 25-30% of the population, depending on league. Also least popular race in each of those leagues.
On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote: Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,,
Your point is taken but not really valid. Blizzard has done a great job making units useful at all stages of the game, this change is a step in the wrong direction. Counting nerfs does nothing and the game should only be looked at in its current state.
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
I agree with your post, I tried to say basically the same thing (with uglier words) and it went unnoticed. It seems difficult to have a discussion about this in this thread.
That argument doesn't make any sense. The point is that Ghosts outside of their ability vs Tier 3 Zerg WEREN'T too powerful, yet it's getting extremely nerfed. Just because you don't NEED Snipe to kill Zealots or Mutalisks, nerfing it doesn't make the game "more balanced."
To try and prove how ridiculous and stupid your argument is, here's an example: High Templar storm should be reduced to half the damage. It still does damage to MMM or Mutalisks, but you have to rely more on your other units more now too.
If you want to make snipe solely used for anti-spellcaster usage, make them more effective. Right now, it's not like they are guaranteed to stop High Templar, and for the most part it basically comes down to who has better micro. I'm all for a game in which the person with better micro wins, but if the Terran is building a unit with the sole intent of beating High Templar, and the Templar has an equal chance against the Ghost, then that kind of defeats the purpose.
Also, the fact that Snipe would be better against other Zerg units is a good thing in my opinion: take away a place where they were "too good" and give them a new place to fill. It's something that would be interesting to test.
On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote: Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,,
What an awful "argument" you have there. You're honestly trying to say that Carriers are less useful than Behemoth or Caduceus Reactor? Have you ever seen a Terran research Caduceus Reactor on purpose with the intent to have the upgrade complete? (it gets researched sometimes so that the Terran can deceive their opponent into thinking that they have Cloak on the way).
The idea of counting upgrades doesn't make any sense, as it doesn't prove anything, but if we're talking about worthless upgrades, Thor Cannons can get thrown on there, as the only time I've ever seen a pro use them was Jjakji in a TvP--and he used the cannons on rocks to drain his Thors of energy... I've at least seen players like White-Ra or HongUn use Carriers, even if it is not the most effective unit. I'm not going to say that Carriers are good, because they're not, but they have a lot more potential than the majority of Terran stuff you posted.
Also, why count Combat Shields? That's just kind of a standard upgrade that you get relatively early just like Warpgate Research. And upgraded Warp Prisms are near impossible to kill as a Terran (can't speak from a Zerg's POV), so as far as late game harass that's a great unit.
On February 15 2012 09:29 EclipZe wrote: Yes, all of your points are valid, but every race has had there caster unit nerfed (or in the case of zerg, buffed then nerfed.) Every race has advantages, every race has disadvantages. HT or Infestors don't have a comparable ability to begin with, so to say that this is a nerf of ridiculous proportions when it hasn't come out yet is a little too harsh for me. Maybe I am a little butt hurt, but it is very difficult to upgrade abilities for protoss as of late. 1, Charge 2, Gravitic Boosters(obs speed) 3, Gravitic Drive(Warp Prism Speed) 4, Extended Thermal Lance(colossus) 5, Psionic Storm(HT) 6, Hallucination(sentry) 7, Blink(Stalker) 8 Graviton Catapult(Carrier). Of the eight upgrades, #2 and 3 cannot help in a straight up fight. One could also argue that #8 is also useless as carriers are as useful as sand in your underwear. So we have 5 viable unit ability upgrades. Now for Terran, 1, Nitro Packs(Reapers) 2, 250mm Strike Cannons(Thor), 3 Cloaking Field(banshee), 4 Concussive Shells(Marauder), 5 Personal Cloaking(Ghost), 6 Seeker Missile(Raven), 7 Siege Tech(tanks), 8 Stimpack(Marine Marauder) 9 Weapon Refit(Battle Cruiser) 10 Behemoth Reactor (Battle Cruiser) 11 Caduceus Reactor(Medivac) 12 Corvid Reactor(Raven) 13 Moebius Reactor(Ghost) 14 Combat Shield(Marine) 15 Infernal Pre-Igniter(Hellion). My point is kind of simple... You are having an ability nerfed, it sucks, but others have already felt your pain,,,,
your post is irrelevant... i don't know why you would list the upgrades for no apparent reason. it's not about being 'butthurt' because 'our' race is getting nerfed.
it's about what is better for the game.
1. is snipe overpowered? arguably against zerg t3 2. is there any way it can be fixed without making it crap versus stuff other than zerg t3? yes, many suggestions floating around 3. does terran have any other way to deal with zerg t3 cost effectively? maybe, maybe not. but if not then blizzard just made a load of extra work for themselves for 'fixing' snipe which wasn't even broken in the first place.
Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote: While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
There are actually Colossi timings in TvP where if you go Ghosts blindly you'll almost certainly lose for lack of Vikings. And if you go Ghosts/Vikings and the Protoss goes double forge, it opens up a gigantic timing window where you actually can't have good upgrades and the Protoss will have 3-3.
You later talk about how Tanks > Banelings, Marauders > Ultralisks, and Vikings > Broodlords, which is a complete oversimplification of the game. Nobody is going to go pure Baneling, nobody is going to go pure Ultra, and nobody is going to go pure Broodlord. If they do, sure those units crush them, but that's just like saying Terran goes Marine, counter with Baneling. Terran goes Tank, counter with Mutalisk. Terran goes X, counter with Y.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
Most people here chose to ignore the +5 damage, because it benefits them. But yeah, it should not happen. From the beginning I don't understand why qxc wants 50 and not 45 base damage. There is nothing in the game, that currently suggests that snipe should be buffed against other units. QXC said it himself, the situations in which it would benefit the ghost are still unexplored, so we have no idea if it is indeed needed. Personnaly, I don't think it is.
I believe i saw the proposed only nerf to massive damage on the blizzard comments and/or forums during the patch announcement would probably be good to give credit to who thought of that nerf to massive only for snipe first.
I suppose i saw others mention it i just noticed you used it as a discussion point on SOTG.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
Most people here chose to ignore the +5 damage, because it benefits them. But yeah, it should not happen. From the beginning I don't understand why qxc wants 50 and not 45 base damage. There is nothing in the game, that currently suggests that snipe should be buffed against other units. QXC said it himself, the situations in which it would benefit the ghost are still unexplored, so we have no idea if it is indeed needed. Personnaly, I don't think it is.
That 45 -> 50 is a pretty significant change. It'll buff TvZ early-mid game by making infestors potentially, (don't know till we see it in action) completely useless or shitty and strengthen the ghost significantly overall except vs t3. By breaking ZvT it significantly increases its effectiveness by 2shotting infestors instead of 3. It'll force the zerg into a t3 rush and significantly weaken its mid game and force all-ins more often.
Also, the 45 -> 25 + bonus to psionic is fairly reasonable. This way the terran will actually make something other then mass ghosts (eg vikings or thor/tanks) to combat t3 zerg and infestors. Vikings were also already a good counter to them anyhow. Also, it won't change its effectiveness to zerg infestors. One thing I can agree is that we can also do reduce damage to massive.
Also we rarely see ghost snipe being used in TvP except vs HT so it won't affect that matchup at all.
Why is no one talking about the fact that ghosts can still cloak and still use EMP and Nuke? I believe all of those make it a useful unit even if it didn't have snipe at all.
On February 15 2012 08:32 MavivaM wrote: While I can agree with QXC's feeling about creativity possibilities, imo Blizzard isn't doing something particularly bad. Or better: QXC's solution seems reasonable and viable, but we should ask ourselves a question.
"Why should an unit be viable for every situation?"
I mean: Sc2 is a strategy game, and strategy games are supposed to reward the players who make the correct decisions and punish those who don't. If a Zerg chooses to go mass ling against sentry/colossi he is supposed to lose. Being due to the lack of scouting or because of a wrong decision, he made units who weren't suited to deal with the threat. The same applies if a Toss goes DT against raven, or whatever example you may find.
Now, why should the ghost be a free pass valid all-rounder against every army composition? Up until now, ghosts have always been a correct choice no matter the threat. They are NEVER money wasted. Terrans are already the race with the most flexible units and I don't see how nerfing the snipe can ruin their army. Especially since Terrans have already the correct answers to the threats the snipe answers AS WELL: banelings? Tanks. Ultralisks? Marauder. dueBroodlords? Vikings. I could still agree if the patch would make the ghost completely useless, but it appears not to be the case: EMP is always valid vs Toss, the snipe will still work against casters like the feedback and tactical nukes will still be valid.
The only real issue will be that Terrans won't be able to mass ghosts anymore in order to deal with everything by themselves.
You later talk about how Tanks > Banelings, Marauders > Ultralisks, and Vikings > Broodlords, which is a complete oversimplification of the game. Nobody is going to go pure Baneling, nobody is going to go pure Ultra, and nobody is going to go pure Broodlord. If they do, sure those units crush them, but that's just like saying Terran goes Marine, counter with Baneling. Terran goes Tank, counter with Mutalisk. Terran goes X, counter with Y.
My point is that until the patch comes the ghost will be a viable counter for all those threats at once. He also snipes roaches, just because. Pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew
Hmm..insightful post..I hadn't thought about the effects of the snipe nerf besides just from the zerg pov. Specific snipe damage numbers aside, the idea itself makes sense. I remember watching TvT's in GSL last year with ghost openers, which was pretty interesting. I guess it doesn't really make sense for a tech unit (tier...1.5'ish? what tier is ghost in??) to be unable to easily kill a tier 1 unit.
I think, what blizzard is trying to do here, is shift the TvZ late game AWAY from mass ghosts to a greater utilization of vikings vs. broodlords, and a mech shift against ultralisks. With the buff vs. psionic, and a gradual shift to mech this tacitly nerfs infestors, and results in fewer spell casters for both sides, which, I think is Blizzard's ULTIMATE goal here.
Massing spell casters makes the game really either really fragile or very difficult to push against, which is a strange role for CASTERS to be in, as opposed to an incredibly dynamic game [fragile but more exciting] or a siege battle [makes more sense with attacking units.]
In my opinion, trying to limit spell casters more will: Make lower and middle levels easier. Push higher levels away from a hard counter mentality, which is makes for deeper games.
Ghosts are REALLY good against a huge variety of units in both Toss AND Zerg, albeit representing a potential unexplored. Besides, ghosts have nukes, and IMO more people should use more spells.
Though if they keep this nerf/buff, I think they should make overseers psionic. It'll imply a slightly larger back and forth between both cloak and overseers more.
but in all seriousness, I think it is too early to definitively say that the nerf is "too much" Yeah, ghosts will have fewer options i.e. sniping marines in a ghost rush TvT, but frankly they are already hands down the most versatile unit in the game, I think removing a few of their applications is probably not going to make them a "useless unit" like many terrans are afraid of. Let's give the changes a GSL season or two worth of testing and revisit things then, shall we? I think that's really the only way we're going to be able to come to a solid conclusion regarding the ghost change.
On February 15 2012 08:59 SecretCobraz wrote: I agreed; as a Zerg Player I know Ghosts are too strong in Late Game ZVT, but this is too much of an Overnerf, and may discourage use of the unit altogether (BAD).
That's what Blizzard wants to do though.
Reapers are used in TvZ -> Reaper nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvZ again Thors are used in TvP -> Thor nerf -> Hardly ever used in TvP again EDIT: Hellions are used in TvT -> 1.4 BF nerf -> Mech is hardly viable unless you completely outclass your opponent, and even then it is a situational thing. Ghosts are used in TvZ -> Ghost nerf -> Will hardly ever be used in TvZ again
I kind of wish that Mvp or MMA played Zerg or Protoss so Terran wouldn't be getting nerfed. If you keep "fixing" the game, but they still keep winning, maybe they're just better than other players *GASP* Outside of the elite Korean elite guard of Code S Terrans, there are almost no Terrans who are successful in major tournaments who aren't a part of that group. ThorZaIN occasionally wins a tournament, SeleCT does well against non-Koreans, Kas is a beast but never seems to have the steam to power through an entire tournament. Even in Code A/Code A qualifiers, Terrans are rarely successful. And yet Terran still is constantly subject to nerfs. It's ridiculous.
I agree wholeheartedly to this one. Instead of giving the game more time to evolve more strategies they are just wiping them and basically telling you "how to play the game" when they don't even know it in the first place.
On February 15 2012 10:37 Rikou wrote: Why is no one talking about the fact that ghosts can still cloak and still use EMP and Nuke? I believe all of those make it a useful unit even if it didn't have snipe at all.
Actually a very good point. Fire off a nuke at an unguarded expansion and charge into the Protoss/Zerg army and force him to either go around the map and find the red dot and pull workers or engage poorly with his main army. TBH now that I think of it it takes even less multi-tasking than drops and you will end up forcing detection and defenses all over the map for only 100/100 (Cloak is useful, too) I mean except at the highest levels not every player will have Cannons/Spores/Spines/Obs everywhere to defend.
But of course if we Terrans actually learn how to utilise it properly it'll conveniently become crap in patch 1.4.4
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
SC2 has much more specialist units. Most BW units were viable against everything, which was the old ghost.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
bwahahaha at least state something thats actually viable... maybe if zerg opponent was struck by a car or something ... its about as likely as a nuke killing every bl and infestor at the same time.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
Yeah, someone talked about the +5 damage buff on page one.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
As Protoss, its hard for me to feel sorry about this... at least you still have GHOSTS! Blizzard taking away our carriers and mothership and replacing it with lesser units, NOW that's garbage! To top it off, the Ghost nerf kills our HT's easier?! Great... the one unit that can occasionally fend off mass bio (if we're lucky)? What great injustice!
On February 15 2012 11:55 ucinv wrote: As Protoss, its hard for me to feel sorry about this... at least you still have GHOSTS! Blizzard taking away our carriers and mothership and replacing it with lesser units, NOW that's garbage! To top it off, the Ghost nerf kills our HT's easier?! Great... the one unit that can occasionally fend off mass bio (if we're lucky)? What great injustice!
It takes the same amount of shots for an HT, do the math.
Also the 50 damage has almost no significant effect except for zealots, other ghosts, roaches, and obviously infestors. I'd even argue that tiny boost against zealots is fair after the emp nerf.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
Oh wow, check again. That way you'd make a more educated comment.
On February 15 2012 11:32 Katsura wrote: I like blizzards change way more than urs
Why would u even buff snipe to 50 dmg? Oo
You missed his main point bro. 50 damage is just a number. His main point is that the nerf to 25 + 25 psonic is pointless. qxc could very well mean 45 damage + 5 to psonic + 45 - (10 to 20) to massive
On February 15 2012 08:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: all i hear is terren whining. just because u had a one hit wonder gstl all kill doesnt mean you know more than blizzard
qxc, merz, dde, ThorZaiN and even MorroW to a certain extent has voiced their opinions about this change. When that many Terrans (of which are dwindling in numbers and will continue to do so if this change goes thru) say it isn't right, you have a problem.
And if we heard more from the Koreans I'm pretty sure MMA and Mvp aren't too psyched about this either.
The key there is that Morrow plays the matchup from both sides at a competitive level. If he thinks this is an overreaction he is probably not very biased about it. I play both races myself and agree as well. I think it is too big of a change in a matchup that was already quite well balanced. A slight nerf may have been justified, but I don't think that mass ghosts were imbalanced either.
On February 15 2012 09:50 Ghanburighan wrote: Did i miss it in the thread, or no-one has mentioned that QXC's version of the nerf actually buffs Ghosts by +5 damage. This is also unwanted, to gain the proper balance result, one should have 45 base damage, -25 massive, +5 psionic. In this case ghost snipes become viable against infestors under broodlords, rather than broodlords over infestors, and no other units are affected.
He's just throwing out a value, I don't think you need to pick it apart that much. That's by no means the major point of his post or the discussion, nor is it the real modification to damage in question.
Edit: I'll also say that he may have added that because Blizzard wanted to give ghosts that extra +5 to psionic, so that would compensate for that. That's my best guess. Regardless, it's sort of a side comment and doesn't need to be discussed.
On February 15 2012 07:43 namste wrote: I suppose you've never actually used ghosts. They're so slow that they get caught by slowlings, their auto attack, albeit powerful is really slow. They can't be microed properly. Ghosts cost a lot, they can't be massed only for their auto-attacks. With the proposed changes I rather take 1½ siege tanks than a ghost.
Yes, I have used them. They're still faster than HTs, plus they have an auto attack, can be healed, and have more versatile abilities. Yes, they're slower than marines/marauders, but to say "they can't be microed properly" is a load of crap. Again, compared to HTs they're a lot easier to micro.
On February 15 2012 08:08 Alvin853 wrote: @ Destructicon
you're comparing Snipe to Storm, Fungal Growth and EMP... wait a second... EMP is a Ghost ability, that compares to the other two, so why exactly do Ghosts need another strong ability? Is this because of the fact that Ghosts cost 50 gas less than HTs and Infestors? Or because you don't need to research anything like Storm or Pathogen Glands to make decent use of Ghosts? (Ok you could argue about Cloak, but then you'd also have to take Burrow into account, and maybe Warp Prism for HTs.)
Ghosts are definetely less advanced along the tech tree compared to Infestors and HTs, so they really shouldn't keep up with HTs and Infestors when comparing them on a unit against unit basis.
By that logic BCs and Carriers definitely need a buff seeing how Broodlords are by far the most useful among the three.
Rofl, worst example ever. Carriers have been used in only one GSL match from memory, and that was just because the player wanted to show just how bad carriers are (I can't remember exactly who it was atm). BCs are only every used in very late game TvT, which has no impact on 'balance'. TvZ and TvP they're just plain bad. So yes, they do need buffs. From the looks of it, Blizzard has basically given up trying to balance Carriers and they'll just be removed in HOTS.
i like how qxc analyzed it logically, i enjoy reading posts like this and i think that qxc's change would be a better change then what blizzard offered
but in all seriousness, I think it is too early to definitively say that the nerf is "too much" Yeah, ghosts will have fewer options i.e. sniping marines in a ghost rush TvT, but frankly they are already hands down the most versatile unit in the game, I think removing a few of their applications is probably not going to make them a "useless unit" like many terrans are afraid of. Let's give the changes a GSL season or two worth of testing and revisit things then, shall we? I think that's really the only way we're going to be able to come to a solid conclusion regarding the ghost change.
When you have people playing this game for money so that they can make a living, playing with their livelihood for over two or three months so that you can definitively say you did the right thing, you're going too far. I think that's what a lot of people are missing. qxc does this for a living, and he's one of the players who is using Ghosts the most. Sure, for the average player they will almost never be in the situation where they are sniping Marines or Banelings, saving their precious Ghost energy for EMPs and Sniper Rounds targeted at Tier 3 units, but he is utilizing it a lot more than anybody else.
People complained about Ghosts being too good against Tier 3 Zerg; qxc came up with a solution that doesn't completely ruin the way he's been using the unit, even if it still only did 45 damage with the subtraction to massive units, it would still be better than what they have now. Imagine you have a desk job and one day somebody comes in and says you have to type everything with an old school typewriter. Sure, it still "works," but they're seriously messing up your work environment while you could easily come up with a better solution.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
Oh wow, check again. That way you'd make a more educated comment.
Blue Flame doesn't do anything really until you get Mech Weapons upgrades. What used to be a standard upgrade now is really only used when a player is going mech.
How about 30+20 to light? This would keep the SC2 damage modifier format intact and still keeps the same patch effect. (30 is needed for 1 shot blings which is not light)
On February 15 2012 13:11 mrlie3 wrote: How about 30+20 to light? This would keep the SC2 damage modifier format intact and still keeps the same patch effect. (30 is needed for 1 shot blings which is not light)
i agree, i think a lot of people think the same.. yet to be consistent blizzard has to do it this way, its just the way they designed the game , they use bonus damage, they dont have damage reduction
OK everyone saying the ghost is good because it has a base attack while other casters don't is comparing it to the WRONG unit. Ghost is a tier 1.5 caster which is more comparable to sentries and queens. if you want to talk about terran caster, look at the nearly useless 2 range cast raven/ Essentially an entire flock can be negated with a single fungal as it is right now.
What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
I almost entirely agree with QxC, however i feel like snipe should be 45, +5 vs Psionic, -20 vs Massive. I feel like buffing snipe to 50 damage could (depends on some unit's HP) could make it OP vs those units. So in other words snipe still does 50 dmg vs psionic, 25 vs massive, and is not buffed vs anything else.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
On February 15 2012 03:26 Al Bundy wrote: Yeah yeah, we know, when things stop being completely OVERPOWERED, suddenly they become useless. If I remember correcltly, when BFH were nerfed, people were crying about their uselessness.
Can't you find a way to make use of the 1.4.3 ghost? What's wrong with specialized units? BW is full of them and it doesn't seem to stop players from using them.
Last I checked nobody gets the BF upgrade anymore. It's one thing to kill an upgrade it's another to kill a unit.
Oh wow, check again. That way you'd make a more educated comment.
In the last 100 or so TvZ pro replays I've seen one player has actually gotten the BF upgrade. They still make plenty of hellions though.
Edit: I've seen the infestor NP upgrade 4 or 5 times.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
On February 15 2012 13:11 mrlie3 wrote: How about 30+20 to light? This would keep the SC2 damage modifier format intact and still keeps the same patch effect. (30 is needed for 1 shot blings which is not light)
Infestors are armored.
Aw damn you're right. =/
On February 15 2012 14:15 lastshadow wrote: 25 to massive 45 to rest. fixed.
On February 15 2012 13:50 RevTiberius wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though.
On February 15 2012 13:31 Carras wrote: i agree, i think a lot of people think the same.. yet to be consistent blizzard has to do it this way, its just the way they designed the game , they use bonus damage, they dont have damage reduction
This is a good point. I wonder how hard it would be to in cooperate damage reduction to massive instead of bonus damage to massive. Can someone who does map editing tell us if you can make customs like that? If so then it should be an easy fix.
To everybody saying ghosts shouldn't be a universal... they aren't. They are so fucking expensive. Plus snipe isn't even that good vs mass units like bane zealot marine (it can do well but considering the cost of the ghost it's effectiveness is average). it's only good vs targets of small number like hts, broods, ultras (you wont have 30 of these.) For the investment, ghosts should be able to have a sort of swiss army knife type function.
On February 15 2012 13:50 RevTiberius wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though.
Why is what I am saying "untrue"? Just because you disagree with my opinion? I was merely pointing out the fact that patches have very different effects on pro level compared to the rest of the community.
Take for example getting an early banshee in TvT. That may be a viable option for pros because they can micro the banshee well enough. But not for casual players like me (mid-diamond) because marines repel my banshee too easily and I end up not doing enough damage. I'm just not good enough to take advantage of the banshee's +1 range vis-a-vis marines.
At the same time, ghosts may be "awesome" at pro level, but they are very hard to use below that especially since the EMP radius nerf because they require so much micro to be used effectively.
So my main point remains: The ramifications of patches are quite different depending on the level you are at. Having said that, I agree with qxc's original argument, though at my level the consequences will be far worse from a terran point of view.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
On February 15 2012 11:32 Katsura wrote: I like blizzards change way more than urs
Why would u even buff snipe to 50 dmg? Oo
You missed his main point bro. 50 damage is just a number. His main point is that the nerf to 25 + 25 psonic is pointless. qxc could very well mean 45 damage + 5 to psonic + 45 - (10 to 20) to massive
50 just a number? Make it weaker against massive and buff vs rest? I didnt miss the main point but i still dont like it
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
templar: PvP.
Are there any others?
Mmmm High Temp Archon Zealot can surprise people in PvP pretty well.
sweet game, nice job there, but to me it just proves that snipe is too strong. You held the first attack at the 10:00 mark ingame time very easily. That's fine with me, armies were about equal, you had the bunker and the ghosts, so Puma shouldn't have won that engagement. But your ghosts had enough energy for about 8 more snipes left. So even if Puma had brought 8-10 additional marines, you probably would have held anyway, making snipe a very strong ability in the early game.
With the reduced damage you still would have been fine, but you'd actually have to use up all the energy on your ghosts, and you most likely couldn't hold off another 8 marines.
Same goes for the battle at around 14 minute mark ingame time, EMP makes medivacs useless, and snipe turns the battle completely one-sided with plenty of energy left on at least one of your ghosts. Enough to fight the next wave of Puma's reinforcements, until the energy is finally depleted on your ghosts, but you pretty much had the game won at that point.
I don't want to take any credit away from you, you chose the micro intensive option, you micro'ed well, much better than i could, and you won. I'm just saying that the patch won't have as much of an effect as you make it out in this thread. Assuming your micro is top notch as always, I'd say with a fourth ghost for extra energy/sniping rate this game would have gone quite similar even after the patch. (Battle at 14:00 might not have been as one-sided and you'd actually have to transition into a mid/late game army instead of just massing marines)
But if you care about the damage numbers and how often you have to snipe a single target, would it be ok to double the energy cost of snipe? That would lead to the same result, without the added micro. And since ghosts are rarely low on energy right now I don't see the change making ghosts useless.
On February 15 2012 13:31 Carras wrote: i agree, i think a lot of people think the same.. yet to be consistent blizzard has to do it this way, its just the way they designed the game , they use bonus damage, they dont have damage reduction
This is a good point. I wonder how hard it would be to in cooperate damage reduction to massive instead of bonus damage to massive. Can someone who does map editing tell us if you can make customs like that? If so then it should be an easy fix.
To everybody saying ghosts shouldn't be a universal... they aren't. They are so fucking expensive. Plus snipe isn't even that good vs mass units like bane zealot marine (it can do well but considering the cost of the ghost it's effectiveness is average). it's only good vs targets of small number like hts, broods, ultras (you wont have 30 of these.) For the investment, ghosts should be able to have a sort of swiss army knife type function.
The cost of a unit doesn't make the unit less useful/universal, besides which there are plenty of other units that have huge investment costs that aren't anywhere near as versatile.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
templar: PvP.
Are there any others?
HTs: All PvP, siege tanks, ultras, even roaches to some extent. Even lings are usually too quick to get good storms on.
Besides which, it's not just the unit counters for ghosts. With cloak, emp, and nukes, there are plenty of things you can use them for without even being in a battle.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
templar: PvP.
Are there any others?
HTs: All PvP, siege tanks, ultras, even roaches to some extent. Even lings are usually too quick to get good storms on.
Besides which, it's not just the unit counters for ghosts. With cloak, emp, and nukes, there are plenty of things you can use them for without even being in a battle.
You said situations, not specific units. I guess if you see an army of pure HTs you don't build infestors, but does that ever happen?
(also using siege tanks as an example for when templar are bad is vaguely amusing since you can just make them into archons against tanks anyway).
On February 15 2012 05:30 Elyvilon wrote: So, how about 45 damage (+5 vs psionic) (-20 vs massive) ?
45 Base Damage - 20 vs. Massive + 5 vs Psionic
The main point of the 50 damage buff is for Infestors, so I really don't think the Ghost needs more Snipe damage against other Biological units. HTs, DTs, and Queens will also take the full 50, but this is pretty negligible compared to everything taking the 50 such as Mutas, and Corruptors.
Speaking of Corruptors, that's the main problem I see with your change. Blizzard probably also doesn't want Ghosts owning Corruptors. At least with 45 + 5 vs Psionic instead of 50 base damage, they do a bit less damage to Corruptors than with your proposition.
And, no, it's not needlessly complicated as there are already units with two different damage modifiers, such as Voidrays against both Armored and Massive.
"i agree, i think a lot of people think the same.. yet to be consistent blizzard has to do it this way, its just the way they designed the game , they use bonus damage, they dont have damage reduction"
This is a good point. I wonder how hard it would be to in cooperate damage reduction to massive instead of bonus damage to massive. Can someone who does map editing tell us if you can make customs like that? If so then it should be an easy fix.
To everybody saying ghosts shouldn't be a universal... they aren't. They are so fucking expensive. Plus snipe isn't even that good vs mass units like bane zealot marine (it can do well but considering the cost of the ghost it's effectiveness is average). it's only good vs targets of small number like hts, broods, ultras (you wont have 30 of these.) For the investment, ghosts should be able to have a sort of swiss army knife type function.[/QUOTE]
On February 15 2012 15:00 CarbonTwelve wrote: The cost of a unit doesn't make the unit less useful/universal, besides which there are plenty of other units that have huge investment costs that aren't anywhere near as versatile.
I'm not proposing that a high cost unit should be good against everything. But they should have uses in many situations. It's not like ghosts were that good all the time before the patch anyways. They are used late game in tvz and mid to late game tvp, rarely in tvt.
I'm not saying nerfing snipe vs broodlord and ultra is too extreme, I dont think qxc is making that point either. What i'm trying to say is that blizzard, by nerfing snipe vs broodlord and ultra in the way that they are currently doing it, is preventing the innovation of other matchups in areas that ghosts were already rarely used.
On February 15 2012 15:17 fighter2_40 wrote: This is a good point. I wonder how hard it would be to in cooperate damage reduction to massive instead of bonus damage to massive. Can someone who does map editing tell us if you can make customs like that? If so then it should be an easy fix.
It was confirmed several pages ago that this is quite an easy thing to do in the map editor.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
templar: PvP.
Are there any others?
HTs: All PvP, siege tanks, ultras, even roaches to some extent. Even lings are usually too quick to get good storms on.
Besides which, it's not just the unit counters for ghosts. With cloak, emp, and nukes, there are plenty of things you can use them for without even being in a battle.
You said situations, not specific units. I guess if you see an army of pure HTs you don't build infestors, but does that ever happen?
(also using siege tanks as an example for when templar are bad is vaguely amusing since you can just make them into archons against tanks anyway).
You're right, I am talking about specific units, but in reference to situations involving those units. If your opponent has an army based around HTs, you're not going to want infestors. Same thing for mech, or lategame zerg. Similarly HTs you're not going to want against armies built around the units I mentioned. And morphing into archons isn't the same given they can't morph back when you need storm again. Atm, ghosts are pretty universally useful. There is no situation that having ghosts in your army is going to be useless due to the composition you're up against.
On February 15 2012 08:50 Thraundil wrote: While I do like most of your argumentation, I disagree on your conclusion, qxc. Now, I may just be a lowly master, but. Alot of what you are saying seems to be based around the idea that "ghosts should be useable and valuable in every situation in every matchup". Now I know this i a gross understatement, but let me offer you a few questions, or statements if you will, to your post.
- Using snipe to help deal with overwhelming number of zealots after the main army has been EMP'd You can still do this after the patch. The damage reduction is 20 - yes, a big number. But lets not forget the ghosts autoattack itself also does 20 damage to light. In addition. This will force terrans to actually consider how many ghosts to make. Do I make 5, and rely on money EMPs, or do I wildly mass 15 ghosts well knowing that its really kinda hard for me to make too many ghosts? The 'damage' that EMP does to a protoss army is already fairly insane, so for the ghosts to now be "less useful" after the EMPs have been launched, I consider this completely fine. Now ghosts will take 4 snipes to kill a zealot instead of 3. (Zealot = 100 hp, 3x45 or 4x25). Its an increase of one snipe. This was similar to the infestor nerf - one more fungal needed to kill certain units - and the infestor is still wildly used.
Similar argument to anti mutalisk. Well. You already have marines that are pretty good vs mutalisks, not to mention turrets. Call me ignorant, but I fail to see the problem here.
What you seem to say is; "Its a problem that with this change, ghost become a unit that has a specialised function, and are not just automatically good vs every bio unit". Well thats the case with pretty much every starcraft II unit. Banelings are utter balls against marauders, mutalisks dont do very well against marines, so on so forth. The ghost will clearly still have a place in both PvT and ZvT matchups - and for these "niche" roles they fullfil to perfection against the very popular units of HT, sentry and infestor. Ghosts in TvT? Maybe not so much - but maybe for the same reason you dont often see storm in PvP. Or ultralisks in ZvZ. Sometimes a unit is just that. Useful for one thing, that it does super super well. In addition, your post loses just a tiny bit of validation in my eyes, due to the following (I re-write what you say that way I read it). "Rather than overall ghost nerf, I think you should only nerf ghosts vs massive, but buff it vs everything else". To exactly your above point; Lets make ghosts 2-shot EMP'ed zealots rather than 3-shot. And to another point; your proposed change would make ghosts 4-shot a corruptor, rather than 5-shot as its current form. A roach would be 3-shot rather than 4-shot. (Maybe less of a point but an overlord would also be 4-shot, rather than 5-shot).
My point here being. Yes, maybe the ghost change will "radically influence those one in a hundred games", and "limit innovation". But have you considered that Blizzard might just intent for the ghost to be the specialised anti caster unit? I mean, we dont see protoss complain that high templar are not particularly cost efficient against siege tanks, or see zergs complaining how poor hydralisks are in ZvT (limit to innovation, anyone?).
In no way does this change actually destroy ghosts. Yes, it could be done smoother - in that regard I agree with you. But maybe blizzard have thought of the points you bring up, and feel it is satisfactory that ghosts are slightly less strong overall? (Infact, a blizzard employee has said that they have thought of it and does not feel the ghosts rare appearance in other roles than their 'most common' as mentioned above: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26 )
My thoughts exactly; I don't believe it was ever the intention of blizzard that ghosts be this massed, "backbone" unit that dominates anything bio. They will still retain utility and other uses. Great post.
Well written qxc hard to disagree. Killing the innovation from the game kills the game in the long run. I have seen enough MMM and tank marine. Well.. there's still raven. Let's hope it doesn't work too well or blizz will nerf it.
On February 15 2012 15:17 fighter2_40 wrote: What i'm trying to say is that blizzard, by nerfing snipe vs broodlord and ultra in the way that they are currently doing it, is preventing the innovation of other matchups in areas that ghosts were already rarely used.
Just because a unit isn't used in other areas doesn't mean the unit is bad (and note, I'm not saying that is always the case). See the replay from qxc of him using ghosts in early to mid game TvT. And there are plenty of examples of ghosts being used in early all the way through to late game TvP. And also qxc is talking about using ghosts in mid game TvZ for banes/infestors. This is what I mean when I say that ghosts are fairly universal as far as matchups/opposing builds are concerned.
As far as preventing innovation is concerned, I don't see any validity to the argument that innovation should be possible for the unit in these other matchups. What reason is there to say that Terran needs/deserves to have a unit that they can make useful in any scenario?
On February 15 2012 15:23 Jarree wrote: Well written qxc hard to disagree. Killing the innovation from the game kills the game in the long run. I have seen enough MMM and tank marine. Well.. there's still raven. Let's hope it doesn't work too well or blizz will nerf it.
There's raven, reaper, and even BCs that have potential for innovation for Terran IMO.
On February 15 2012 13:41 rS.eZrA wrote: What you need to understand is what the unit is designed for.
I'm not making Zerglings to counter air right?
I'm not making Infestors to counter let's say Ghosts right?
Your entire complaint is completely based around that Ghosts no longer counter EVERYTHING which is not what they were disigned for in the first place. They are a utiliy unit, you already have the marine.
Vikings counter broodlords, Ghost counter corrupter and Infestor. You can;t have double hard counters.
Marauders counter ultralisks, not marauder ghost counter ultralisk. Terrran is the only race that had a unit that could literally counter EVERY unit that the Zerg had effectively.
This change is fine, Sbipe/EMP infestors, HT, etc, that's what ghosts do, not snipe everything.
What a terrible game this would be if every unit had a direct counter. Snipe can be a soft counter to zealots. Or you could literally snipe banelings with snipe.
What a terrible game this would be if every race had a universally useful unit they could fall back on...
Hey, let's list the situations where high templar and infestors aren't useful!
templar: PvP.
Are there any others?
HTs: All PvP, siege tanks, ultras, even roaches to some extent. Even lings are usually too quick to get good storms on.
Besides which, it's not just the unit counters for ghosts. With cloak, emp, and nukes, there are plenty of things you can use them for without even being in a battle.
You said situations, not specific units. I guess if you see an army of pure HTs you don't build infestors, but does that ever happen?
(also using siege tanks as an example for when templar are bad is vaguely amusing since you can just make them into archons against tanks anyway).
You're right, I am talking about specific units, but in reference to situations involving those units. If your opponent has an army based around HTs, you're not going to want infestors. Same thing for mech, or lategame zerg. Similarly HTs you're not going to want against armies built around the units I mentioned. And morphing into archons isn't the same given they can't morph back when you need storm again. Atm, ghosts are pretty universally useful. There is no situation that having ghosts in your army is going to be useless due to the composition you're up against.
Your opponent is going pure mech in TvT(actually, they're not particularly good if the other side is building tanks period). Also they're not all that good against mass numbers of low tier zerg units, and you only want a couple of them at most against a colossus-based army in my experience.
Also, are you saying infestors are bad against lategame zerg armies? I have not watched a lot of lategame ZvZ, but that surprises me quite a bit; I have to imagine they demolish the support units.
I guess currently ghosts are useful in like 95% of situations and templar/infestors are useful in like 90%. Even if they're not the ideal choice, I doubt that there's a lot of situations where you go, "well, my opponent has composition x, I am not going to warp in any templar at all," as opposed to, "well my opponent has composition x and templar aren't ideal against it, but they're still good enough."
(by the way, I'm not saying ghosts shouldn't be nerfed; I'm saying that I feel that the argument of ghosts being overly general-purpose seems to me to apply also to templar and infestors).
I thought it was too much of a nerf anyway. I think it would be better if it was kept at 45 but nerf the damage to massive units like ultras and broodlord since that was the main problem anyway.
On February 15 2012 15:27 CarbonTwelve wrote: As far as preventing innovation is concerned, I don't see any validity to the argument that innovation should be possible for the unit in these other matchups. What reason is there to say that Terran needs/deserves to have a unit that they can make useful in any scenario?
I hear this argument a lot. Think backwards. Where is terran T3? What reason is there to say Z needs/deserves T3? Unit useful in any scenario.. hmm maybe infestors? These arguments aren't logical in my opinion.
Greate write, we need that more pro´s are talking how the game can be better balanced and more entertaining. Especially in balance or map discussions because then the stupid argument "you play at diamond and you have no idea of the game" is irrevelant.
But there is one little, tiny fault in the blog. You write that "Workers" could be sniped, thats wrong you can snipe scv´s and drones but not probes. This is btw. totally stupid why are probes more mechanical as transformer robots.
On February 15 2012 15:28 Elyvilon wrote: Your opponent is going pure mech in TvT(actually, they're not particularly good if the other side is building tanks period).
Mirror matchups aren't good examples for discussing balance as both sides have the same options available to them, so it's not like the game was unfair to one player or the other because of a certain unit.
Also they're not all that good against mass numbers of low tier zerg units
Generally, yes, but even if you've got them you can use them against banes as qxc describes.
and you only want a couple of them at most against a colossus-based army in my experience.
Perhaps you do only want a couple, but the EMPs on the supporting army of the Protoss from those couple of ghosts will easily make the investment worthwhile.
Also, are you saying infestors are bad against lategame zerg armies? I have not watched a lot of lategame ZvZ, but that surprises me quite a bit; I have to imagine they demolish the support units.
Generally yes, infestors are bad at late game (tier 3) zerg. ZvZ doesn't often get to that late game stage though.
I guess currently ghosts are useful in like 95% of situations and templar/infestors are useful in like 90%. Even if they're not the ideal choice, I doubt that there's a lot of situations where you go, "well, my opponent has composition x, I am not going to warp in any templar at all," as opposed to, "well my opponent has composition x and templar aren't ideal against it, but they're still good enough."
Personally I'd say 95% is about right for ghosts but it's a lot lower than 90% for templar/infestor. And yes, I think there are certainly times when a Protoss is going to decide not to build templar even if they've got the tech, due to having something else they want/need to invest in that'll be more worthwhile.
(by the way, I'm not saying ghosts shouldn't be nerfed; I'm saying that I feel that the argument of ghosts being overly general-purpose seems to me to apply also to templar and infestors).
To me I see it as HTs and infestors being great against low tier units (which I agree is a typical army composition), but limited utility beyond that. In their current form, ghosts are good for low tier (exception being zerglings), mid tier and high tier units, good for harass, great anti-caster, and decent general dps.
great write-up by qxc. Blizzard seems to be completely opposed to creative play made from players, and seems to be trying to dictate and control the way they "envision" the game.
Very good post from you qxc, thank you for that. Very well argumented. I am wondering why Blizzard is not thinking in that direction. We will see how big the impact will be in the long run - and what comes next after that...
Not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not make snipe 25 + 25 psionic and + 25 light. That way they can still snipe banes/marines/zerglings/dark templar and infestors/HT?
i agree; things like banelings should definitely be able to be sniped in one shot. The inability to 1-shot mass swarm units just make the ghost unit seem rather weak and non-specialized. It should represent the expensive terran special forces unit that can sacrifice energy for a powerful kill. It makes the unit boring and more mathematically speaking only cost efficient vs psionic. Consequently, it will devolve into ONLY an anti-psionic unit
On February 15 2012 16:13 Latchy wrote: Not sure if this has already been suggested, but why not make snipe 25 + 25 psionic and + 25 light. That way they can still snipe banes/marines/zerglings/dark templar and infestors/HT?
It's good to know that everyone appears to be on the same page with this.
Maybe Blizz will listen. a nerf to snipe damage to massive units is really the only correct way to do this. The way they want to do it is just shortsighted and wrong.
On February 15 2012 08:27 whereismymind wrote: Ghost was too strong unit(before emp reduction and this nerf), those balance nerfs are welcome to every unit in game that is too strong. This game shouldn't allow free wins. And I am happy with it. More skill needed, like in BW.
Yea, more skill and less QQ leading to knee jerk patching? I'm pretty sure Savior wasn't Ma Bonjwa for getting Blizzard to nerf marines and siege tanks nor was Bisu the Revolutionist for nerfing mutas. Earn your win =/= having Blizzard swing a nerf bat around.
On February 15 2012 13:50 RevTiberius wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though.
So a 40% T win rate for late game TvZ at the pro level is obvious that ghost needs a nerf in late game TvZ...? The majority of Terran wins against Zerg occur in like the first 15 minutes of the game, if it weren't for marine+scv all ins and the like, I'm pretty sure TvZ would be fairly Z favored. Remember, just because MMA+MVP can do something, that doesn't mean everyone else can or that late game ghost is auto win. If late game ghost WAS so imbalanced that it required this nerf, I would expect T to have the edge in late game but that's clearly not the case. Also, yes maybe Ghosts are very effective against every high tech Zerg unit late game but can you imagine what it would be like to literally have to hard counter every Zerg tech switch in late game? You would literally have to throw down an army's worth of resources just into infrastructure to be able to hopefully remax in time for a tech switch. Terran cannot spawn whole armies of different compositions on a whim...nor can they speed up the production of their units with other spells and abilities.
On February 15 2012 13:50 RevTiberius wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though.
So a 40% T win rate for late game TvZ at the pro level is obvious that ghost needs a nerf in late game TvZ...? The majority of Terran wins against Zerg occur in like the first 15 minutes of the game, if it weren't for marine+scv all ins and the like, I'm pretty sure TvZ would be fairly Z favored. Remember, just because MMA+MVP can do something, that doesn't mean everyone else can or that late game ghost is auto win. If late game ghost WAS so imbalanced that it required this nerf, I would expect T to have the edge in late game but that's clearly not the case. Also, yes maybe Ghosts are very effective against every high tech Zerg unit late game but can you imagine what it would be like to literally have to hard counter every Zerg tech switch in late game? You would literally have to throw down an army's worth of resources just into infrastructure to be able to hopefully remax in time for a tech switch. Terran cannot spawn whole armies of different compositions on a whim...nor can they speed up the production of their units with other spells and abilities.
I couldn't agree more with this post.
I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty much arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins.
I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf.
This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much.
It is not uncommon at all for situations to occur where its a massive stalemate endgame situation and the zerg and terran both have time to sit on 200food armies for a few minutes which allows all the ghosts and infestors to get max energy
I believe this is the main scenario and reason ghosts are being nerfed.
In this scenario, ghosts being 2food have the ability to unleash loads of dmage instantly, evaporating the zergs units instantly while still living to do damage and possibly do it again.
I think this is the main scenario that is being nerfed and its hard to find a solution that totally fixes it.
First i will explain a bit why a 25 damage snipe is pretty bad and almost pointless to cast.
At first i thought the snipe change was bad but i guess in the scheme of things it makes sense because ghosts have an autoattack while infestors do not.
Regardless, many people seem to think with the mousescroll trick ghosts will still be able to obliterate broodlords just at a lesser rate than before. Allow me to clear up some things.
Snipe has a cooldown meaning at 25 damage for 25 micro'ing that is almost not even worth it.
Snipe actually has about a 0.5 second cooldown/casttime and the ghost cannot attack/fire during that cooldown
With the new mousescroll wheel trick you can cast a bunch of snipes at once, however its still limited by the ghost snipe cooldown so all it does is it makes all your ghosts fire instantly but still they individually have cooldowns. also ghosts cannot do their normal DPS while chain sniping.
So while chain sniping you are losing your normal DPS, but gaining snipe DPS (assuming you are chaining 25 energy snipes).
So if snipe is made 25 energy for 25 damage, it wouldnt be THAT bad as long as the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe was removed. Not only that, but the 0.5 second cooldown on snipe should not effect the firing rate of ghosts, meaning if you A-MOVE a group of ghosts then hold down the snipe button and use the mousescroll trick, you could literally spam 100 snipes in 2 seconds while also not messing any of the ghosts autoattacks up. I guess if that was possible, the change wouldnt be so bad.
However right now because snipe has like a 0.5 second cooldown AND the fact that you have to consume APM to use it AND the fact that when you use a snipe it RESETS the attack timer of ghosts resulting in less autoattack DPS, when you actually use ghosts to snipe right now you are losing dps from their autoattack damage, and with a 25 damage snipe it probably becomes completely not worth it to even use your APM to cast snipe as each bit of APM you use on snipe actually results in a minuscule amount of extra damage being created when you factor in the lost DPS from ghosts autoattacks.
The above is the main point of this post and something i think should be cleared up.
Blizzard probably already knows about it somewhat but the community doesnt completely know about it and maybe blizzard is just talking about a 25/25 snipe now the same way they talked about NP not working on massive units, but its just a tactic by blizzard to suggest a massive nerf at first and then bring in a lesser nerf in the real patch. That is just speculation, who cares, but regardless maybe there is a small percent chance the balance team isnt completely aware of how the cooldown results in lost ghost DPS meaning casting a 25 damage snipe is almost a non productive use of APM because you lose DPS for almost a miniscule amount generated damage.
So above is the main point of the post, and below is just my opinions on possible solutions.
This is just one possible solution im thinking of. These are just my opinions, and i dont know what solution blizzard will go with im just brainstorming. The MAIN part of this post is just to aware people of the snipe cooldown and how a 25 damage snipe is almost removing the spell completely as its not even worth it to click anymore, this part of the post is just opinions/brainstorming on possible solutions but if you dont like reading that kinda stuff you can just stop reading now if you like.
Okay, now moving onto my opinions.
I think because removing that 0.5 second cooldown on snipe would be hard to do, i think the easiest and simplest way to balance snipe is to make it 125 energy for 125 damage
So in conclusion, I think 1 energy for 1 damage on snipe is not a bad balance move because one 2food ghost can dish out 200 energy for 200 damage and that means 2 ghosts at 4food can instantly destroy a 4food broodlord while still surviving to live another day and regenerate energy and do it again, but 25 damage on snipe is just pitiful and not worth the APM clicks.
So i suggest making snipe 125 energy for 125 damage, or possibly 100 energy for 100 damage. This would allow ghosts to almost 1shot zealots and still with max energy bars ghosts lategame would still do the dirty and kill broodlords/ultras quickly. But at a lesser rate than current.
Lets look at my proposed idea. 3ghosts vs 2 ultralisks, both cost 6food. 4ghosts with max upgrades and energy bars could launch 4 snipes at a ultralisk and deal 500 damage to it, leaving it with 1health to get 1shotted and then launch 2snipes at the other ultra dealing 250 damage leaving it with 250 health remaining and the 6ghosts can autoattack and kill the other one shortly after.
So with my change ghosts would still destroy ultras and broodlords, and but it requires them to regenerate to 125 energy on all of them, and its HARD to produce plenty ghosts, and infestor fungals with mass ling swarms would still #!#@ ghosts, and my change still follows the 1energy for 1damage guideline that blizzard wants to follow.
However, zergs reading the above description may still feel thats overpowered, because they might think "dang, the reason they are nerfing snipe is cuz is kills ultras and broods too well, with your change it almost seems like a buff because 6ghosts will still destroy 2ultras"
And you know what zergs, maybe you are right. Maybe it should be 75 energy for 50 damage. Maybe 150 energy for 125 damage (which would still lead to my scenario happening, but it would cost more energy to do it increasing the reload time). I dont know what exactly the main final solution will be, thats why this part of my post is just my opinions. The main part of this post was explaining how a 25 damage snipe is pretty pointless, and my opinions are just my opinions, so yes zergs maybe your right, i dont know, these are just my opinions and i think brainstorming is a good thing.
Further thoughts. A comparing fungal damage i remember seeing a game where MVP had 30 spread +3 vikings trying to counter broodlords and they were still destroyed by infestors. I forget who he was facing tho. Id say in that game even with good spreads it was normal to deal 300 damage for 75 energy with the fungals on vikings. that is insane. thats 4 damage for 1 energy. One might think fungal is way too good compared to snipe if they compare the two spells.
But I think the balance lies in the fact that multiple infestors cannot really "stack" their damage instantly, while many ghosts can stack their damage instantly with snipe. These two properties of the spells can create a trade off balance between the two spells where they both are strong in different areas but pretty well balanced in the scheme of things.
Based on the spells mechanics and how infestors do DoT damage in a AoE, and snipe is a instant unload of all energy damage instantly, the mechanics seem to suggest infestors are stronger early, but when the terran has a 200food army with a ton of ghosts the "stacking" effect kicks in and ghosts are able to instantly unload all their damage while infestors must "wait" for the DoT spell to finish before turning more energy into more damage. So based on these mechanics blizzard has to come up with some kind of number scheme they feel is fair given the two spells properties and you dont want ghosts to be too powerful in that lategame scenario, possibly only just as powerful as the infestors.
I dont know what numbers blizzard will finalize with, the point of this post was just to aware everyone how 25 damage snipes are pretty worthless. With that said, whatever solution ultimate is reached will probably be a good one so i guess lets just wait and see.
Watch this game between morrow and leenock. I think if snipe was 125 energy for 125 damage, morrow could do the same thing in the game (murdering broodlords with snipe) however it would take less apm to pull off. So once again zergs might think 125 energy for 125 damage is pretty OP, and maybe you are right, whatever numbers are finalized i hope blizzard spends plenty of time trying to come up with the perfect numbers.
HOWEVER, 125 damage snipe would ruin it against marines and i hear there are many new TvT strats involving ghosts against marines. So here is my final i believe best way to balance snipe
NEW SNIPE STATS:
25 energy for 30 damage + 20 psionic
if targeting a massive unit, the ghost will fire a second bonus super snipe at the massive target instantly for 100 energy which deals 90 damage. This effect does not happen if the ghost does not have the 100 energy available
so the above new snipe will automatically allow ghosts with 200 energy to instantly unload 115 damage to a massive unit with 1 click, and this costs 125 energy to do. Then after that the ghost can cast extra snipes with remaining 25 energy.
with these numbers, it would almost be a buff to snipe. because now 2 ghosts with 200energy will instantly vaporize a broodlord (2 snipes for 230 damage, broodlord dies) and still survive to do it again
(on second thought, it might be imbalanced if the super snipe only costs 100 energy, because then 3 200 energy ghosts could launch extra normal snipes at an ultralisk and finish it off. so maybe the super snipe should require 100 energy to fire, however it drains all of the ghosts energy when used so a ghost cannot fire extra small snipes)
Many zergs may think this is overpowered because of the example i gave above of 2ghosts instantly vaporizing a broodlord and both cost 4food. however what makes it balanced is the fact that its hard to make plenty ghosts and against ultras 3ghosts would only do 345 damage with their snipes, meaning ultras against full energy ghosts still survive to do more tanking while infestors unleash chain fungals destroying all the ghosts in seconds
maybe my numbers arent perfect, however i feel some kind of number scheme that uses the above formula which allows the ghost to turn more energy into more damage faster is the best way to go because it lets ghosts turn more energy into damage but at a worse ratio
and a 30 damage snipe is still worthwhile to cast in the early game in TvT for various ghost builds that are going around.
Actually, scratch that i just realized something. Using something similar to the above method, theres probably a even smarter way to nerf snipe that only goes towards nerfing the endgame scenario.
Remember, the main thing blizzard wants to nerf is ghosts that are allowed to get 200 energy in a lategame stalemate scenario and then decimate the zerg. Heres a good idea to nerf that without nerfing much else using some of the above elements/ideas.
So heres my new final final idea on what i think is the best way to balance snipe right now.
New Snipe 25 energy for 45 damage, 20 to massive When targeting a massive unit, if 100 energy is available after the snipe it fires an extra super snipe for free at the massive unit which drains all the ghosts energy and deals 95 damage. When this supersnipe is used it puts snipe on cooldown for 30 seconds and also gives the ghost 25 energy and does not break cloak.
so with this new snipe, a ghost with 200 energy would be able to unleash a 115 instant damage snipe which seems to be a good amount for a 2food unit to be allowed to dish out for 200 energy, and it still would only be nerfing endgame snipe which is when ghosts are allowed to get full energy. also i added that cloak thing in there so it wouldnt break cloak
so when a ghost uses snipe on a massive unit, if it has 125 energy it actually launched 2 snipes, one for 20 damage one for 95 damage, and then all the ghosts energy is drained then the ghost is given 25 energy without breaking cloak so the ghost can be cloaked for a little while longer. and snipe is put on cooldown for 30 seconds. otherwise, if a ghost does not have 125 energy, it just launches the normal 25 energy for 20 damage snipe.
I think the above change even though its very complicated nerfs the part of ghosts blizzard wants to nerf (the endgame stalemate with a bunch of 200 energy ghosts)
Anyway it was a long post but as you can see there are many different ways to nerf snipe properly and im sure many ideas exist out there.
However i feel most sane terrans out there will agree that in those lategame stalemate scenarios, ghosts are too good because they are 2food and if they have 200 energy they instantly vaporize pretty much all zerg units that could be made to counter them cost for cost.
while infestors dont do instant damage so they are weaker in the endgame scenario
On February 15 2012 13:50 RevTiberius wrote: It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out on lower levels. I'm a mid-diamond level terran, and I simply don't have the necessary micro/macro skills to stand a chance in late game vs. toss and zerg.
So my point is this: this patch is bad enough for pros who can micro late game terran armies well. It is even worse for players below pro level because we struggle with the complexities of large armies anyway. Handling large protoss and zerg armies is much easier than handling a large terran army.
And because of all this I find it very unlikely that this patch will go through as suggested. They'll either change it before it comes into effect, or adjust it soon after.
Pretty untrue dude. You struggling at the game with Terran at your level is not an argument to not patch something. While i agree that maybe not such a drastic change should be made ... maybe just to massive units or something ... it's pretty obvious late game in TvZ ghosts are pretty fucking good. It's in the same way that i suck at PvZ, and i loose almost all the time, but all i see is zergs complaining that Protoss is impossible to beat. My biased opinion on a matchup or the state of balance is irrelevant because i'm to shit to play the matchup / race well. The TvT ramifications do suck a fair bit though.
So a 40% T win rate for late game TvZ at the pro level is obvious that ghost needs a nerf in late game TvZ...? The majority of Terran wins against Zerg occur in like the first 15 minutes of the game, if it weren't for marine+scv all ins and the like, I'm pretty sure TvZ would be fairly Z favored. Remember, just because MMA+MVP can do something, that doesn't mean everyone else can or that late game ghost is auto win. If late game ghost WAS so imbalanced that it required this nerf, I would expect T to have the edge in late game but that's clearly not the case. Also, yes maybe Ghosts are very effective against every high tech Zerg unit late game but can you imagine what it would be like to literally have to hard counter every Zerg tech switch in late game? You would literally have to throw down an army's worth of resources just into infrastructure to be able to hopefully remax in time for a tech switch. Terran cannot spawn whole armies of different compositions on a whim...nor can they speed up the production of their units with other spells and abilities.
I couldn't agree more with this post.
I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins.
I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf.
This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much.
You know what's funny, I don't even think Ghost nerf addresses current TvZ balance. Across the board, TvZ win rates are within 5% which would imply there isn't a huge balance issue. Add to the fact that, like I said, many T wins come from the early/mid game (call it cheese/all in if you want) and it just strikes me as odd that late game Ghost play is the problem with TvZ. You can literally count on one hand the number of Terrans that have consistently good results against high level Zerg...I don't know, I really don't see the problem here. If anything, based on what I can see from the stats compiled from MLG and SC2stats...buffing late game Terran and buffing early game Zerg make more sense to balance the TvZ matchup. And that isn't even addressing the 40% win rate that Protoss has been having against Zerg lately haha.
As someone currently more watching then actually playing sc2, I have to admit that seeing Ghosts is always a fun thing, especially all those versatile stuff you talk about and as control gets better I was always hoping for a more ghost focussed play cuz its just fun to watch. I'd really hate to see the go away, especially if the intentions lie elsewhere
I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins.
I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf.
This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much.
I agree.
First i play Terran, this means that i am not totally even handed to buffs or nerfs. Keep it in mind for the following:
Since release there were several Terran nerves, which i obviusly dont like but they where everytime comprehensible. Reaperallins was broken, 2 rax too strong, offensive bunker too fast and for free, that was all ok (i mean the nurfs) for all levels of play .
but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier.
Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower.
I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit.
Whats with the following idea of patching ghosts: Most of the time i hear the following whining: i have 400 Supply you cloak 10 Ghosts and Snipe/EMP everything and i cant have detection everywhere. Just disable Snipe and EMP when the Ghosts are cloaked.
25 against massive would still be too small for a matchup that's almost perfectly balanced. 35 adds one more snipe to broods and 3 more to ultras. That's the kind of subtle patches they need at this stage of the game, not a near 50% reduction.
I'm part of a team that has mostly Top 8 master league and low level GM players, and all our terrans agree that they simply aren't good enough to compensate for this nerf, pretty arguing along the same lines as qxc in his original post. And these terrans are better than 99% of the community. I am a lot worse and I think I can kiss ghosts goodbye and will have to switch back to all-ins.
I admit it isn't easy or I guess even impossible to balance the game at all levels, bronze up to GM and pro. But the lower the league, the more difficult it is to use micro-heavy units, let alone after a hefty nerf.
This is literally the first patch that I think is too imbalanced. I didn't mind all the terran nerfs before. But this one is too much.
I agree.
First i play Terran, this means that i am not totally even handed to buffs or nerfs. Keep it in mind for the following:
Since release there were several Terran nerves, which i obviusly dont like but they where everytime comprehensible. Reaperallins was broken, 2 rax too strong, offensive bunker too fast and for free, that was all ok (i mean the nurfs) for all levels of play .
but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier.
Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower.
I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit.
Whats with the following idea of patching ghosts: Most of the time i hear the following whining: i have 400 Supply you cloak 10 Ghosts and Snipe/EMP everything and i cant have detection everywhere. Just disable Snipe and EMP when the Ghosts are cloaked.
I would just say find me a bunch of pro replays where this is happening both on the Korean scene and the Foreign scene...and they cannot be from MMA or MVP.
That aside, I like your point, I feel like just having casters needing to be visible when using their spells makes pretty good sense. Although again...I don't really see how that addresses TvZ. The sample size might be small but it's still bigger than just watching MMA and MVP roll through t3 zerg.
This is exactly what I have proposed all along, I am so happy a high-profile person brought this up so it might get some attention. I hope blizzard reads this and realizes the huge misstake they are making. There is so much innovation that could and should be done with snipe, and it is such a cool spell. I'd hate to see the ghost be reduced to a niche unit for monobattles. T_T
On February 15 2012 17:24 USvBleakill wrote: but since the last patches i have the following feeling: Blizzard patches Protoss and Zerg for everyone but Terrans for the highest level of play. For example the phenix buff. Mutas are hard for Protoss yes, and Blizzard give them a Upgrade which makes the micro Phenix vs Muta easier for everyone. Thats ok. Thats make the game easier.
Everyone who says "Ghosts are steamrolling against t3 Zerg and autowinning with one unit", please go to the unit testmap, make 10 broodlords, 15 Ghosts and then just split and snipe. YES the Ghosts will win but with A LOT of clicks and aiming which is of cours makeable for guys like MMA or MVP but thats really a tough thing for Master players or lower.
I dont want to say "buff terran because its too tough to play" I say buff Broodlords! But make them harder to micro and make them not an A click unit.
I don't think you can go this road without completely changing the fundamentals of the game. TvZ 200-200 clash with A-move, Z steamrolls. TvP 200-200 clash a-move is not even funny. Same fights with 150 apm close fights, 400 apm T wins? While i think your thought process is right, i think it's perhaps too late to implement anymore.
Completely agree with qcx. Blizzard needs to seriously consider this alternative solution. As a Terran player, I feel like each patch has brought one nerf after another for Terran. It's an alienating practice -- I don't feel like playing the game anymore, especially after the units I enjoy using are rendered pointless.
The ONLY buff to snipe is actually Ghost vs Ghost, they can now 2 shot each other up from 3. Meanwhile DT's, HT's and Infestors all still require the same number of Snipes to KO as in the previous patch.
Why in hell, people only give their suggestion to the changes and not propose better or more complicated changes. I for one, would rebalance the ghost completely. Maybe change it's role in the game completely. Just nerfing the abilities of units, does not boost the game anywhere.
My proposal would be: - Change resource costs back to 75/175 or 100/200. The resource cost change to 200/100 was the first part, why snipe is now imbalanced. Ghosts can be massed too easily in endgame scenarios. Make it a gas unit, like any other heavy caster based unit in the game. This would also require the terran to manage their gas better as for only upgrades and medivacs / vikings and so on. This would also make the ghost a little bit incompatible with mech play, but one should have to decide what composition fits best. - Leave snipe unchanged. - Change EMP radius from 1.5 to 1.75 or 1.625. This would rebalance the EMP back to a fair nerf resulting in only a 25% or 33% damage loss compared to the nearly 50%. In conjunction with the cost adaption this might be a good change.
The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant. Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy. Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
Trollllllllll. Yeah snipe nerf is big..too big. But what about the phoenix "buff" for toss? Make fleet beacon + upgrades to be ABLE to counter a midgame unit from zerg? It's just absurd... How can people like this patch? It's the silliest patchs since they removed amulet... You'd be rich if you sold all that wine, qxc.
On February 15 2012 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant. Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy. Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
They could just implement it as plus everything else (except for massive) from a lower base if minus doesn't work. And I don't see any reason that it would be programmed with negative damage vs massive being not possible, especially with the modability that Blizzard put in the game. As long as the variables involved will accept negatives, it shouldn't be a problem, and even if they don't, it still shouldn't.
On February 15 2012 19:26 mime1 wrote: Trollllllllll. Yeah snipe nerf is big..too big. But what about the phoenix "buff" for toss? Make fleet beacon + upgrades to be ABLE to counter a midgame unit from zerg? It's just absurd... How can people like this patch? It's the silliest patchs since they removed amulet... You'd be rich if you sold all that wine, qxc.
qxc made an excellent suggestion that would be a lot better than what the people that are paid to balance the game came up with, presented in a well formulated post. You complained about imbalance without any reasoning and without any alternative suggested. Then you call qxc a troll...
I don't think you can go this road without completely changing the fundamentals of the game. TvZ 200-200 clash with A-move, Z steamrolls. TvP 200-200 clash a-move is not even funny. Same fights with 150 apm close fights, 400 apm T wins? While i think your thought process is right, i think it's perhaps too late to implement anymore.
It´s maybe to easy to say but your right Terran is a "Micro wins games" race. Thats not a bad thing thats the reason because i like it. But its very frustating to see Blizzard remove another game feature because top level players are just "better" in these things. Whats next? Nerf the Minimap because better players have an advantige looking at? Just look at Leenock vs oGsFin and say again that snipe is OP against Broodlords. Its a thing of evolution in the zerg gameplay and not a part of balance.
The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant. Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy. Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
I am not a software engineer but it sounds like a stupid framework if that would be impossible. And if it would not possible how do the Armor or Shield Upgrades work? They reduce the incomming damage too.
Nice blog. I agree 100% with the OP. Reducing the damage of snipe vs massive units would solve the problem of lategame TvZ instantly. With the recent nerf Ultra/Broodlord switches will be a problem for the terran to deal with in the lategame. Moreover it is possible for Zerg to fight the heavy use of ghost with a ling run-by or drop, e.g. Stephano vs. Thorzain on Metalopolis. Additionally the 50 damage would inspire terrans to figure out new timings and solve the problem of the 1-HP-Infestor.
Yep, as someone who's worked on small game projects before, I have to agree with qxc.
It's completely baffling to me that they would ignore the correct variable (massive unit/biological) vs snipe and instead change the base damage completely. Dumb oversight by blizzard.
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance.
ur pro gamers. Im pretty pro at golf, do i get mad when they move the tees back, put in a new bunker, have changeable weather conditions. No. I know what i do. Most of it stays the same. Some things change. If ur pro adapt, im sure the REAL pros will. they will be ontop they will be innovative leaving moaning people behind. They knuckle down and demonstate WHY they have the title of pro. As it stands, im rubbish at sc2 but the metaphore here applies to everything we do. Let me just say. i watch more than i play i havent seen a single ghost produced . . or any ove noticed in the last 10 terran matches. What is everyone going mad about.
Yes, let's increase base snipe damage to 50 so people just ghost/hellion rush zerg and nuke the spine crawlers. Never mind the fact that maxed ghost/mech is an insta-win against zerg already
I wouldn't be against the proposed change if it was 45 damage (-20 damage to massive)
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance.
ur pro gamers. Im pretty pro at golf, do i get mad when they move the tees back, put in a new bunker, have changeable weather conditions. No. I know what i do. Most of it stays the same. Some things change. If ur pro adapt, im sure the REAL pros will. they will be ontop they will be innovative leaving moaning people behind. They knuckle down and demonstate WHY they have the title of pro. As it stands, im rubbish at sc2 but the metaphore here applies to everything we do. Let me just say. i watch more than i play i havent seen a single ghost produced . . or any ove noticed in the last 10 terran matches. What is everyone going mad about.
for the game to truly advance, blizzard needs to stop fucking with balance, everyone knows this. frequent patching never lets you truly find out if something is imba or not because so many things need to be worked on.
On February 15 2012 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant. Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy. Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is PSIONIC then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which is a basic system design principle.
i can see what everyones saying i really can, maybe if i could devote my time to sc2 and get my ability to this level i could throw in some of my two cents into what it DOES mean. Im pretty sure blizz didnt just go. nerfty nerf nerf, im almost positive they would have tried and tested this to death with gamers before even releasing the notes. They know how you all get. Im going to all out say that this response is just like the last 10. Somethings in, somethings out. Makes game MORE interesting to watch. Im sure the pros will figure something out with this for and against
From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which a basic system design principle.
as a probability programmer in my youth and the small app/game enthusiast now, it isnt as simple as that. depending on the friend/inheritance of the overall objects you might find strange behaviour in other things, which the proGRAMers have possibly found out. As a coder, i tried to shift a simple balance thing in one of my games, created another 10 bugs or made it ridiculous over time. Im sure sc2's code is the like of which i have never seen.
On February 15 2012 21:06 StatixEx wrote: i can see what everyones saying i really can, maybe if i could devote my time to sc2 and get my ability to this level i could throw in some of my two cents into what it DOES mean. Im pretty sure blizz didnt just go. nerfty nerf nerf, im almost positive they would have tried and tested this to death with gamers before even releasing the notes. They know how you all get. Im going to all out say that this response is just like the last 10. Somethings in, somethings out. Makes game MORE interesting to watch. Im sure the pros will figure something out with this for and against
From a code design point of view, the function is actually the same:
If/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (N)
if/when UNIT is MASSIVE then DAMAGE + (-N)
Anyway I seriously doubt Blizzard's designers had not in mind extensibility, which a basic system design principle.
as a probability programmer in my youth and the small app/game enthusiast now, it isnt as simple as that. depending on the friend/inheritance of the overall objects you might find strange behaviour in other things, which the proGRAMers have possibly found out. As a coder, i tried to shift a simple balance thing in one of my games, created another 10 bugs or made it ridiculous over time. Im sure sc2's code is the like of which i have never seen.
Yes, it is as simple as that. It is still just an elementary arithmetic addition (If you want to subtract make variable negative).
You cannot bring your amateur tetris-making experience into this case because blizzards designers are Professional, and I am pretty sure they are very good. If you add a minimal change and create 10 bugs, then your design is just horrible. Also, blizzard doesn't just release new patches without working a previous good set of test to detect errors. They don't just make changes and expect there are no bugs lol
Seriously you'd think that all of a sudden Ghosts became useless entirely. They still will kill BLs (with the same effectiveness that they were used on ultras before) and are now even better against Infestors. And the BS of a tech switch is just that. BS. You make ghosts for Infestor/BL and then make Marauders when they switch to Ultras. Just scan any zerg base about 45 seconds after the battle and you'll see the tech path (which gives you plenty if time to react BTW).
That's not the point of the post, I know. But why aren't you mentioning the fact that doing that is a buff for the Ghost no matter what way you say it?
Sniping bio is pretty useless even pre-patch and still takes 2 shots to kill a reaper even before the nerf. Reapers are left with 5 health still after a snipe currently. Really now, I know you would like to see the ghost rush become practical, but to sit here and talk about it like it's any different now than it was before is ridiculous.
Really the only loss in the nerf that changes anything is now it no longer 1 shots a baneling. That is really the only part of the OP that I like. The idea of ghosts vs banelings I think is cool, but really as long as you have marines in front of the ghosts sniping banelings is still cost efficient. I wouldn't mind seeing it be 35 damage +15 vs Psionic for this alone, but again you're sitting there saying about how 'useless' it is now with the patch.
What you're really asking for is a buff because you want your ghost rush to work. Really don't try and disguise it behind talks of 'balance' and all that other stuff because that's all a farce and you know it. Fact of the matter is that this balance change affects 6 units (Ultra, Broodlord, Infestor, Ghost, Baneling, Zergling). Other than that, everything else stays the same.
imho ghosts were best-buy units prepatch... they were atleast decent against almost everything... I can't think of unit that has more versatility than ghost... (cloak, snipe, emp against energy and shield, nukes, range, dmg, extra dmg against light) personally I think ghosts would be used in tvz and tvp even if you remove snipe...
100% agree, these changes in their current state will really disrupt the usage of Ghosts in many situations. I really hope blizzard changes their Ghost nerf in some way.
Good point, QXC! I think this change won't get anybody angry in relation to the proposed patch, unless Blizzard thinks it's "ugly" to make attack modifications negative.
I figured there would be serious fallout from this...It does seem like a hard nerf, but I can lie...kind of makes me smile a little inside to see Terrans squirm over this. In any case, it probably does need to be nerfed a little less, but then again I dunno, I haven't played with it or seen good people play with it....Seems like whining won't really help until Blizzard has seen some evidence. For instance, in the MVP v. Nestea finals where like 20 broodlords evaporated because of OP snipe...that must have been pretty solid evidence because now they are doing something. About damn time...we'll have to see if the pros can adapt.
On February 15 2012 04:27 Gheed wrote: Snipe is a spell, not an attack. It doesn't have to follow the x + y to z formula. They can just write out on the spell description that "The Ghost snipes a single, biological target for 45 damage. Does 25 less damage to massive units. This ability can be queued for multiple instant snipes." or something to the effect. The semantic argument is the least persuasive one for not changing the ghost in the way qxc describes.
It doesn't matter what's written on the spell description, as that is not what the SC2 engine uses, that's just flavor text for the player. I'm saying that until someone really familiar with the SC2 editor explains otherwise, its a possibility that Blizz can't make a change like qxc suggests because of a limitation in the engine. Considering no such "subtraction" damage yet exists in the game, I think its a very real possibility. Also there is no bonus damage in the game that only affects non-massive, or for that matter, non-air, etc...
You are pretty naive if you think the SC2 engine can't handle -25 against massive. Go play a tower defense or something, look at all the damage types they have.
Hey I didn't say it was impossible, just was questioning it. And you'll be happy to know that I fired up the Map editor to figure it out myself, and YES it is possible to make Ghost's Snipe do -25 to massive. I tested it in the unit tester, worked fine. Cool, I just wanted to make sure, but thanks for calling me naive for not knowing the intricacies of the map editor, and no I don't play tower defense maps sorry.
This guy went and tested it in map editor. CAN BE DONE. Case closed.
Glad to finally hear a pro speak out. They generally keep quiet as it never really turns out well when they do speak up about balance. However, in this case I think its totally justified for a pro to speak out on the nerf. I also think its truly insane, the very fact that you have to use 2 snipes to kill a bane now is just ridiculous. You rarely have that much time if the bane has centrifugal hooks.
Great post QXC, I am NOT a pro by any means and all your points were all of my main concerns when I read the patch as well. It really only confirms my suspicions that Blizz just meets once a month for about 5 mins to talk about balance, I'm starting to wonder if David Kim et al ever even play this game anymore.....
It seems a lot of people are forgetting that ghost not only have an auto attack that does damage but also has the game-changing EMP on top of that. And now Terrans want to buff their snipe ability as well? :s
There is nothing wrong with having a unit perform a certain role very well instead of it being a general all round unit. Terran has more than enough of those as is. If you are going against a lot of spellcasters/units with shields or if you want to drop nukes then you should make some ghosts. If you don't need that role filled than don't build the unit that fills that role...
On February 15 2012 03:13 Frostfire wrote: I think snipe need to be 35 +15 to casters. We shouldn't live in a world where it takes more than 1 snipe to kill a zergling.
I agree completely with the approach in the OP. Blizzard/David Kim absolutely need to address how this changes TvT and TvBanelings and give some sort of rationale. Some things to consider:
45 damage (-20 to Massive): Everything stays the same except Brood Lord/Ultralisk. Infestor's still can't be 2-shotted, but I'm not sure that's a necessary buff since A) They're still vulnerable to EMP and B) a slightly injured infestor (from tank splash or mis-micro) can be 2-shotted.
50 damage (-25 to Massive): Does this 2-shot zealots? If it does, that's a problem that's not worth the buff of 2-shotting infestors. If 1 point of shield regenerates that's fixed, but it's still an extra 5 damage in this situation and the TvT situations that's probably not necessary.
I actually think that snipe should only target ground units. The +psionic makes the ability completely redundant with emp. Without hitting air it would gives ghosts only limited ability against broods (in the form of nukes, basically) but still effective against ultras. It would also get rid of the silly instasniping of overseers.
And it could actually be flavorfully justified instead of +psionic which just makes no logical sense.
I have to agree with QXC, not only because I am in his fanclub, but because he's pretty right. While nerfing ghost vs zerg T3 was maybe needed ( as a zerg I personnaly want the broodlord to die, I hate to have to do this lame unit), I would like snipe just do dmg to light and psionic units (and less to the other). It would be more "roleplay", and anyway except T3 zerg units and corrputers, most of the units you want to snipe are light. I really agree on the fact that this change is killing the usage of ghost in TvT (your snipe deals more dmg to...ghosts, yeah!), and I doubt this will make the ZvT match-up better to watch (huge air are soooo untrertaining -_-), I would just rely on better maps to avoid to let the terran have the possibility to split the map in 2 (shakuras plateau get out).
I do not like this change because it makes snipe redundant. If the spell is only good against casters now then why not just use emp and hit them all at once? It may be slightly better against dark templars but once again emp might be more useful because it reviles them.
What's stopping me agreeing with the OP is that, right now, there doesn't seem to be enough of a penalty for overmaking ghosts - in TvZ anyway. High-tech units ought to need to be used carefully (Too many broodlords, not enough corruptors; too many colossi, not enough stalkers). But ghosts in TvZ are so good, against almost everything, that it's almost always better to have more of them. The 1.4.3 change puts ghosts in the same 'judicious use' category as other high-tech units. Overmake them and you'll be vulnerable.
I'm not going to defend the exact numerical change, but I can see a justification for making ghosts less of an end-game 'safe option no matter what'.
I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
I didn't like ghosts being that strong in the first place. Especially not after people learned they could use their scroll wheels to kill off entire armies with them.
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
I just think they need to quit changing the game. Every time they patch they take away credibility for this game being a "sport". They didn't make basketball goals taller in the NBA just because Shaq is freakishly large.
Personally I'd rather have the post patch ghosts in game rather than the new one even with the zerg tier 3 problems and I say this as a zerg. I did cry a single zerg tear every now and then seeing whole bunch of broods go down but this nerf is just too much.
"Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance." ... EVERYTHING relies on the current balance, but you will adapt as you have with every single change that has been made thus far. Sure I can agree on that this might be a bit much, but terrans, like every other race, will adapt to the changes, comming or present. Saying you do not like a change because of what you have not seen pro players do yet with the current settings when the change adresses game balance is nothing short of ridiculous to me.
We never really got to see Tanks being used in innovative ways to take advantage of that ridiculous 50 damage to EVERYTHING when they still were that powerful, it was changed because it was needed, people whined about it at that time too, It will be ok in the end!
On February 16 2012 01:27 Neurosis wrote: I just think they need to quit changing the game. Every time they patch they take away credibility for this game being a "sport". They didn't make basketball goals taller in the NBA just because Shaq is freakishly large.
But they do make rule changes all the time. Handchecking turned the league from a big man dominated game to a small man dominated game. They've also added the 24 second clock, and the 3 point line. Widened the key area. You ALWAYS need to adjust rules as time goes on. This goes for SC2.
What we really need to stop changing is the game that we play as an RTS e-Sport. I think that's a closer analogy.
On February 16 2012 01:46 Dudelida wrote: "Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance." ... EVERYTHING relies on the current balance, but you will adapt as you have with every single change that has been made thus far. Sure I can agree on that this might be a bit much, but terrans, like every other race, will adapt to the changes, comming or present. Saying you do not like a change because of what you have not seen pro players do yet with the current settings when the change adresses game balance is nothing short of ridiculous to me.
We never really got to see Tanks being used in innovative ways to take advantage of that ridiculous 50 damage to EVERYTHING when they still were that powerful, it was changed because it was needed, people whined about it at that time too, It will be ok in the end!
Ghost nerf whining isn't about what you had seen, it's about what you will never have a chance to see if it goes through.
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
I can't say it better than qxc, but as he says in the OP:
On February 15 2012 03:10 qxc wrote: Have we seen these situations before? Not really. Maybe once? Maybe almost never, but the point is that if Blizzard changes Ghosts in the proposed way we won't. Not now, not ever. This change kills potential innovation and interesting play. But the ghost vs. Tier 3 Zerg relationship can be fixed while keeping the ghost in tact in other situations.
On February 16 2012 01:27 Neurosis wrote: I just think they need to quit changing the game. Every time they patch they take away credibility for this game being a "sport". They didn't make basketball goals taller in the NBA just because Shaq is freakishly large.
Well, most in the NBA is Terran, so balance isn't much of an issue
On February 16 2012 01:58 MafiaCheese wrote: Seems kind of odd that they want snipe to be an Anti-Psionic ability when emp serves that purpose already /shrug
It should be obvious they want ghost to be a anti-psionic unit then and not the all purpose kill-everything-zerg that it is now
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf - baneling mutalisk infestor
one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?
there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed. 1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.
2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?
Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.
So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed.
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf - baneling mutalisk infestor
one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?
there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed. 1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.
2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?
Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.
So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed.
As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world.
I think the problem Blizzard is looking at is just good game design versus what needs to happen.
What needs to happen is that snipe needs to be changed in a way that only affects its relationships with the units that are the problem (Broodlords and Ultras).
I think Blizzard recognizes this, but is concerned about the game design aspect of it, in that a - to massive makes snipe too convoluted. Obviously, the tooltip wouldn't need to change much, just a minus to massive added in, but there's two problems with that.
First, there's no other unit with a minus damage stat. It's not a technical hurdle as much as it is a psychological one. I don't think Blizzard likes the idea of attack reductions against certain things. On top of that, the snipe tooltip explicitly states that its damage is not reduced by armor.
Second, Blizzard seems to like the idea of two sniping every caster unit. This would require the ghost to get a buff to snipe to achieve. That, or have the base damage be 45-15 to massive/+5 to psionic.
Third, I think Blizzard also sees the ghost becoming an infestor of sorts. While it isn't currently used as such, a ghost's utility, I would argue, is probably double that of a single infestor. First, nukes are huge and severely underused.
1. Nukes: They can force an army to move, deny expansions, deny mining, and, if they hit, are the most cost-effective thing in the game. 2. EMPs can deal a thousand damage from a Protoss army at once, in an instant, or deny your opponent use of any casters, period. Can reveal cloaked units. Can protect your units from opposing HT. 3. Snipe: deals damage to every zerg unit, in large numbers, hard counters zerg tier 3. Is an effective way to remove psionics from the game. Did you know you can snipe larva too? Snipes overseers very quickly as well, Zerg's only effective method of mobile detection.
It can do all of these things while cloaked. It's absolutely the most, without a doubt, versatile unit in the game. Blizzard is looking ahead and realizing that ghosts only get more used from here, not less.
With all these frequent patches - and expansion sets - coming out I think we'll be discussing unit balance for a long long time. Though this is an example of a particularly bad patch.
Leaving aside the ghost nerf, the other aspect of the patch, the phoenix buff vis-a-vis mutalisks seems to be a lot less controversial as I do not see any major uproar in the zerg community. As opposed to what's going on in this thread.
The currently proposed 25 Damage, +25 to psionic makes the spell too situational. EMP can already be used to counter casters, so an increased ability to snipe them won't help terran players much.
Snipe also needs to be good against other units. I'm thinking: zealots, zerglings, banelings, marines, workers and larvae. So essentially it'd be most effective against tier1. For this I'd set the damage at 25 with +25 to light armor.
Giving units a negative bonus is ugly from a design point of view. Besides 50 would be too strong as it would 3 shot zealots which could be abused I think. I don't think the loss of other interesting ghost tactics is that bad they were very narrow anyway. Also I think terran has too many viable tactics in general which lead to build order poker too much, cutting of the fringe tactics isn't that bad as I'd rather have a less luck dependant game then too many goofy yet viable strats.
Let's be honest snipe vs protoss is extremely rare against zealots anyway so not a big miss. The only things we will be missing with this nerf is ghost tactics in TvT (which is only useful for a funky rush really) and snipe vs banelings / muta's. Changing it to 30+20 should be fine really, you can still snipe banes then and 2 shot marines with shield (same as now). All the other sniping is rarely done anyways so won't be a miss at all I think.
On February 15 2012 19:01 IcemanAsi wrote: The Balance discussion here might be irrelevant. Depending on how the damage code is written it could be literally impossible to implement your suggestion with the current damage model.Right now units have base damage and an additional damage against one type of enemy, your'e suggesting having base damage minus damage against one type of enemy. Reprogramming the damage model could actually create some major bugs as it isn't simply a variable change.
They could just implement it as plus everything else (except for massive) from a lower base if minus doesn't work. And I don't see any reason that it would be programmed with negative damage vs massive being not possible, especially with the modability that Blizzard put in the game. As long as the variables involved will accept negatives, it shouldn't be a problem, and even if they don't, it still shouldn't.
On February 15 2012 19:26 mime1 wrote: Trollllllllll. Yeah snipe nerf is big..too big. But what about the phoenix "buff" for toss? Make fleet beacon + upgrades to be ABLE to counter a midgame unit from zerg? It's just absurd... How can people like this patch? It's the silliest patchs since they removed amulet... You'd be rich if you sold all that wine, qxc.
qxc made an excellent suggestion that would be a lot better than what the people that are paid to balance the game came up with, presented in a well formulated post. You complained about imbalance without any reasoning and without any alternative suggested. Then you call qxc a troll...
Good job.
Edit: typo
No, he made a suggestion. We don't know if it is better or not, because everyone who tried to discuss what qxc suggested got ignored. Hopefully Blizzard will keep their change, and maybe tweak the ghost in another patch.
Why not reduce the base damage to say 30 or something, and buff the ultralisk's frenzy ability to negate the armour ignoring component of snipe? Ultralisks now do not evaporate to ghosts, and ghosts are still strong against broodlords.
This spell deals 1/2 damage to massive units. And MAYBE +10 dmg to psionic, since they want that for some reason... Just my 2 cents... This really shouldn't be that hard... They always make these changes so... dumbfoundedly weird.
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf - baneling mutalisk infestor
one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?
there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed. 1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.
2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?
Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.
So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed.
As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world.
to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted.
I mean, if Blizzard doesn't want to rate it as "50 with -25 to massive" because they don't want to give minus modifiers, I think a lot of people would accept "Doesn't work against massive" as an alternative nerf that's still not as far-reaching as changing the way Ghosts interact with a bunch of other units. I mean, there are already a bunch of comparable spells and abilities - Marauder stun, force fields, Phoenix lift - that don't work on Massive units. It makes flavor sense, too, like, "What, you're gonna shoot that enormous rampaging monster in the eye with your tiny little gun?" (Actually it makes flavor sense as qxc templated it, too.)
I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P
QXC is 100% right, I have no doubt this is terrible from both a game creativity standpoint, and a balance standpoint. It's absurd to make a unit less effective against 90% of bio units in game when that is exactly its function - shoot bio units in the face and kill them. You are basically double nerfing the ghost based on the fact that you nerfed EMP to the point it cant hit more than one infestor, so now we have to use snipe.
Why don't you go ahead and nerf sentry force fields since they werent intended to be worker killing units, but with your warp prism buff NOW they commonly are. Innovation and creativity make the game better blizzard, at some point zergs will figure out way to catch ghosts out of positon, or force a base trade, or just remax on roaches/lings (which ghost are TERRIBLE against).
This part of the patch is pretty much last straw for me and most terrans. Blizzard, at one point you said 'the strength of terran come from the diversity of its units.' You are a liar.
Last time i check the only units we make are marines, mauraders, medivacs, tanks and vikings.
This is less than both other races in terms of standard play. We also cannot remax like the other races, so lategame, we are at EXTREME disadvantage once a gaint battle ends when both races are maxed, or close to max.
Like, honestly Blizzard, what am I spending gas on late game in every matchup besides rauders, tanks and upgrades... its a freakin joke. BC's... are a joke. Thors... are a joke. Banshees late game... are a joke. Vikings (unless they have voidray/broods)... are a joke. Ravens... (sorry everyone) are A JOKE. The only thing to be taken seriously was the ghost and now no longer.
On February 16 2012 07:12 mDuo13 wrote: I mean, if Blizzard doesn't want to rate it as "50 with -25 to massive" because they don't want to give minus modifiers, I think a lot of people would accept "Doesn't work against massive" as an alternative nerf that's still not as far-reaching as changing the way Ghosts interact with a bunch of other units. I mean, there are already a bunch of comparable spells and abilities - Marauder stun, force fields, Phoenix lift - that don't work on Massive units. It makes flavor sense, too, like, "What, you're gonna shoot that enormous rampaging monster in the eye with your tiny little gun?" (Actually it makes flavor sense as qxc templated it, too.)
I'm not jumping on the "qxc for Balance Designer" bandwagon, though. I love you, Kevin, but you're definitely Terran-biased, and let's be honest: Blizzard doesn't need anyone else T-favored working for them. =P
Who is terran biased and works for blizzard again...?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Quiet - you agreeable, yet non agreeable... dude.
If Blizzard goes through with this without even addressing why they disagree with qxc's logic, they are going to anger A LOT of people, myself included. They MUST at least explain their reasoning.
You know I have to say I like the idea of +psionic on snipe. All the caster units for each race, they all have the same tools: One utility, one anti-caster and one AOE. The thing about Snipe was that it was almost -never- used for anti-caster, it was used for smashing ultralisks which didn't even make any sense. I play zerg and i think ultralisks dont need to be so easy to counter.
However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me.
i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect.
Although I see the concerns, I still believe the damage types of the attack are correct. Maybe the numbers are off a little, which will be fine tuned in a later patch most likely. I forsee it maybe going to 35+15 to psionic which would be a little better.
Something that blizzard also might have taken into consideration is those FE ghost builds that basically raped zerg asap unless they caught it and all in countered in time. Banelings have 30hp, so 25 makes banelings work much better vs mass snipe ghosts early on in the game. Because as a zerg player, the only really viable unit to use to counter mass ghosts is roach, and that is pretty terrible.
PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why?
PS- Why do ghosts have no size type? bio/psionic is fine, but every other caster and unit in the game is light, armored, or massive if i'm not mistaken. Anyone care to explain why?
I am no pro terran player, but I don't think the damage of ghosts normal attack should be ignored. 20 Damage to light units is nothing to scoff at. Separating the list of units that snipe will do less damage to, Ghosts still do
excellent attack damage vs: marine reaper zealot baneling hydralisk mutalisk workers and now will be less effective against: marauder corruptor broodlord ultralisk
On February 16 2012 01:20 Zorkmid wrote: I agree that there might be a better way to nerf the ghost/fix ZvT. I don't agree that terrans regularly snipe the emboldened members of QXC's "less" list:
this is what i was thinking while reading the post. so not counting broodlords and ultralisks which is what the patch very much intended to not have snipe be used for, you're left with 3 units ghosts would regularly snipe pre-nerf - baneling mutalisk infestor
one of which, is still viable to snipe. the list doesn't look as outrageously stacked now that all the unnecessary fluff is taken away doesn't it?
there's 2 main arguments of qxc's which are inherently flawed. 1. "nerfing snipe is like nerfing marines". this is a straw man argument. it's much easier to make an argument against a 50% marine damage nerf simply because marines are NOT ghosts! marines only have their base damage and a stim move. ghosts besides having snipe have cloak, nukes, and emp. that's a lot more utility than your average marine and still makes ghosts a viable production unit for certain situations including sniping infestors and templars. this argument of qxc's was not so much an argument against a ghost nerf, more than it actually was against a marine nerf, which only lead to confuse and mislead his audience.
2. sniping any other unit is "innovation". No, it's not, and if it is, it's not very good innovation. there's a lot better ways to kill a marauder or zealot than sniping it. Let's imagine though that there are games where possibly sniping zealots and marauders is a good idea. Out of 100 games how many do you think that scenario would present itself? 1? 2? maybe 5 at most and if we're generous? Out of 100 games of TvZ how many would it be a good idea to snipe broodlords/ultralisks? 70? 80? if not all?
Balancing a game is not a perfect science. But anyone can see that the move to nerf snipe provides MORE balance than less, even though there is a tradeoff where we significantly balance the TvZ matchup but lose a few "innovative" scenarios.
So in conclusion, myself personally, as a protoss player, I find the nerf to be fair and find qxc's argument to be both misleading and flawed.
As a random player, I'd have to say your argument is flawed because of the fact that nothing supports the idea that it's late game ghost play breaking TvZ right now. Heck, late game TvZ isn't even broken, not if you actually look at overall play and not just a handful of games by literally the best couple of players in the world.
to implement a solution you first have to understand the problem. many people including the OP understand snipe was a problem in late game TvZ, and discussions so far have been focused on "how" not "if" snipe should have been nerfed. I never said TvZ was broken or that Z could never beat T, but i think it's well understood that the balance in the matchup was tilted.
If you have read some of the previous posts, you can see why I assert that snipe is not the issue with TvZ. The balance is tilted, ever so slightly because the terran edge in the early game is bigger than the zerg edge in the late game...minus the literal handful of players that can use mass ghost as effectively and efficiently as MVP. If every other Terran in the GSL could do that, sure that becomes an issue but when you basically balance Terran around the top 3 players of the race, I don't think that's legitimate. How many Zerg have DRG's mutalisk control? Do we balance mutas around DRG? How many Protoss had MC's blink and FF control? Did we balance stalkers and sentries around them? If they do have to change something about ghosts, I feel like taking the damage down to 35 with a +15 to psionic or w-e would be fine. No need to basically HALVE the damage output of the spell.
this whole thing is obv taken from a biased standpoint, im sry but ghosts need to not be able to counter everything zerg has, emp is still good tvp, although a bit harder to land now, and ghosts still rape ht/infestors in ridiculous fashion, and can still be used to snipe mutas if thats rly what ur trying to do (4 snipes/muta, trading 1/2 a ghosts energy for 100g/100m sounds pretty good.) im sry if you feel like you'll never be able to win again if terran gets nerfed again, but u need to quit being so blind and realize how badly it needs to be changed, perhaps they're not going about it perfectly but it will definately suffice (and it takes 1 less snipe to kill queens if it makes u feel better)
On February 16 2012 09:38 thrazznos wrote: I am no pro terran player, but I don't think the damage of ghosts normal attack should be ignored. 20 Damage to light units is nothing to scoff at. Separating the list of units that snipe will do less damage to, Ghosts still do
excellent attack damage vs: marine reaper zealot baneling hydralisk mutalisk workers and now will be less effective against: marauder corruptor broodlord ultralisk
20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100.
Personally I think the most elegant solution is to make it not castable on massive; blizzard is more likely to follow through with that than permit a minus modifier.
On February 16 2012 15:22 Belisarius wrote: 20 damage to a single unit at standard range and normal rof is plenty to scoff at when the thing doing it costs 200/100.
Not when you compare to other casters that can't do any damage other than spells (HTs/Infestors).
On February 16 2012 08:48 darkscream wrote: You know I have to say I like the idea of +psionic on snipe. All the caster units for each race, they all have the same tools: One utility, one anti-caster and one AOE. The thing about Snipe was that it was almost -never- used for anti-caster, it was used for smashing ultralisks which didn't even make any sense. I play zerg and i think ultralisks dont need to be so easy to counter.
However 25 is too low, not because its a small number, but because snipe should 1-shot certain things, I think. I like 30, it lets you keep 1-shotting banelings. 30 base/45 psionic seems reasonable to me.
i dont like QXC's idea involving the massive tag. Snipe does have too much use compared to something like feedback and neural parasite, it should be more limited. But they got the math wrong, snipe currently lets ghosts excel in small engagements of small units as well and I think that's important to protect.
So in your world... Fungals shouldn't root. Fungals and Storms would only take out shields and not touch your life. Infested Terrans would instead take your energy. Infestors wouldn't burrow or move. Ghosts and Infestors would move slower What else am I missing?
It's a terrible idea to try to make all the races the same with the same units and same mechanics. The whole point of SC/SC2 vs AoE is the race asymmetry while still being balanced.
On February 16 2012 15:22 Belisarius wrote: blizzard is more likely to follow through with that than permit a minus modifier.
What's with this this permitting "minus modifier"? Why do some people think this is a sacrilege? Is it simply because it has yet to be done in SC2, despite the engine being quite capable of doing so?
Guess what matters people: fun and balance. If a minus modifier for massive units make Snipe better than Blizzard's original plan for 25+25 Psionic, then it will be done. There's nothing holy in SC2, they will do what makes the game better in their opinions. It's simply a matter of figuring out what would be best role for the Ghost, and consequently there's nothing wrong with a minus modifier if it gets the job done.
And I'm all for 45-20 Massive +5 Psionic instead as well (I prefer it to QXC's solution, as there is no need to make snipe do more damage to non-Psionic units at the moment). As long as it makes the game more balanced and keeps the Ghost reasonable, then having two damage modifiers will be what it takes (and is not unprecedented as this exists in the Voidray).
I extremely agree with this.. the snipe nerf is just too much.. if they want it to nerf it so bad then just remove the snipe ability and bring back le lockdown
QXC your logic is sound as always, wonder if Blizz actually asked many players if they had a proposed solution to the T3 Zerg snipe problem before deciding to ruin snipe vs anything that doesn't cast?
The moment I saw the proposed nerf I thought "Thats way too much, way to ruin any chance of me ever winning a late game TvP again" but I've heard at least 3 different pro's present ideas that are a way better solution and don't completely ruin the ghost in every other match-up.... QXC's being the most solid imo
QXC raises some excellent points in this post. The criticisms are well articulated and the alternative change is one that I think we can all agree on. I have at least a small degree of faith that Blizzard will listen to the community--and more importantly the pros--on this one and resolve the issue correctly.
I for one agree with blizzard's choice (zerg player obviously). This
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
is available for all players, so all of them have to adapt constantly not just him, and it's part of the game, just like cheese and whatever else.
Personally I think the most elegant solution is to make it not castable on massive; blizzard is more likely to follow through with that than permit a minus modifier.
I also think this is problematic, as zerg can tech switch much faster than terran. If he goes broods, terran mass vikings, and then just remax on ultras, terran wont be able to switch to marauders fast enough, and just has a lot of useless vikings. I think QXC's idea is cool!
So after the patch it takes 3 ghost snipes to kill a marine upgraded with combat shields . now there are two possible explanations: 1. The ghost is retarded. 2. The sniper rifle is broken.
On February 16 2012 19:05 Operations wrote: So after the patch it takes 3 ghost snipes to kill a marine upgraded with combat shields . now there are two possible explanations: 1. The ghost is retarded. 2. The sniper rifle is broken.
Or 3. You're trying to argue logic about a futuristic fantasy world using real world experience.
I totally agree with this and I'm Zerg. Sniping was original and difficult to do vs other units that T3 Zerg.
At least if u don't want "minus" damage, do it 25 normal + 25 against light ! (Marine, Reaper, Zealot, HT, DT, Baneling, Hydralisk, Mutalisk, Infestor, Workers, Ghost, Queens)
Infestors, ghosts and queens are not Light, but all three are psionic. They didn't want to change to +light because it would nerf Snipe against infestors.
I don't have any opinion on the plus or minus issue, but I can tell for a fact that it is possible to put a "minus 20" or a "minus 50%" in the game right now without changing anything. That's how the SC1mod work.
On February 15 2012 03:18 Moochlol wrote: QXC genius game balance, I commend you sir. Mind posting this (Minus the pictures) on the blizzard forums, as this is to brilliant to just be in a TL blog. If this can get some backing on the boards maybe a dev will see it. And that would be better for everyone involved, as a master league Zerg I strongly back this game logic.
I bet there is a bigger chance of a dev seeing it, if it's posted here than if its on the B.net forums.
Considering that Blizzard participates more or less actively (they've been known to cite articles, and they probably browse communities too, whether as a part of their job or as a hobby), and that the Blizzard forums are a known cause of brain damage, I'd say you're right.
How about a base damage of 25 + 15 to light and + 25 to psionic? Banelings, marines, hydras, mutalisks, queens and zealots would still be valid targets. It still rewards good micro without promoting mass ghost or ghost as an answer to anything bio.
Ghosts have some pretty nice features already (Snipe, Nuke and Cloak). I think the change will balance the late ZvT because as a Z, you really fear to build broodlords. They are so damn slow that you can lose all of them just because a few ghosts cross their paths. And Broodlords are considerably more expensive than ghosts.
But I already thought that this kind of post would come. I've been part of a lot of game communities and it's the same with each and every one of them: BUAAAA CHANGE IS BAD!
You yourself said that you as pros have to train a lot and do you strategies on the current system. What will you do when HotS comes out? Quit playing because there is no Carrier anymore and all you strategies revolve around Carriers? Or just not use the new units because they dont fit in your gameplan? No! You will adapt to the new situation. And this is exactly what will happen now and everytime something gets changed. You adapt.
Some of you that are longer in esports may remember the change in Counter-Strike when the AWP lost its crosshair. People went mad about it and said "this will break the game forever"... well.. seems like it didnt...
Ghosts have some pretty nice features already (Snipe, Nuke and Cloak). I think the change will balance the late ZvT because as a Z, you really fear to build broodlords.
you are kidding me, right?
...NesTea cowers in fear when MAKING HIS OWN BROODLORDS... lolol
On February 16 2012 23:12 Bocki wrote: I think the change you propose is unreasonable.
Ghosts have some pretty nice features already (Snipe, Nuke and Cloak). I think the change will balance the late ZvT because as a Z, you really fear to build broodlords. They are so damn slow that you can lose all of them just because a few ghosts cross their paths. And Broodlords are considerably more expensive than ghosts.
But I already thought that this kind of post would come. I've been part of a lot of game communities and it's the same with each and every one of them: BUAAAA CHANGE IS BAD!
You yourself said that you as pros have to train a lot and do you strategies on the current system. What will you do when HotS comes out? Quit playing because there is no Carrier anymore and all you strategies revolve around Carriers? Or just not use the new units because they dont fit in your gameplan? No! You will adapt to the new situation. And this is exactly what will happen now and everytime something gets changed. You adapt.
Some of you that are longer in esports may remember the change in Counter-Strike when the AWP lost its crosshair. People went mad about it and said "this will break the game forever"... well.. seems like it didnt...
Wow, there is really not a single argument in your post that states why qxcs idea is not reasonable. Well played.
EMP rapes toss, snipe is good against spell casters, nuke is good to move tank lines, and they are able to scout around while cloaked. These are enough abilities to justify making ghosts. Taking away their "kill anything" ability is a good thing imo.
I don't think anyone can argue that snipe far too strong, how to nerf it has always been the question.
Doing extra damage vs massive is a poor way to nerf the snipe ability as it is clearly too strong as it is. The ghost as a unit has not been fully explored in today current meta game, the unit already has so much utility other than snipe as well as fairly decent damage. There are a wide range of strategies that can involve getting into a base and sniping workers or units, as many people know there is another unit we are all too familiar with doing the exact same thing. BANSHEES. Marines are far more cost efficient than ghost in battles, other than vs tier 3 Zerg. if you want a unit that does high range damage and can cloak build a banshee if you want to be efficient vs casters with EMP and snipe build a ghost, i think the choice is fairly simple.
This duality of roles feels unnecessary as the ghosts function is to be effective vs casters with EMP/Snipe and removing Protoss shields. Blizzard has made perfect decisions on all the nerfs and buffs so far in this patch, im looking forward to laddering again with the new maps.
I guess this has already been proposed but I think it would be reasonable if only Ultraliks were immune to snipe, either through their Frenzied Ability or through the Chitinous Plating Upgrade.
This way the ghost would remain a viable option in many scenarios, plus Zergs can still switch between ultras/broods in the late game and everyone is happy yey!
On the other hand if the they changed the ghost as proposed perhaps terrans would start to incorparate the raven into their gameplay and we would see new strategies.
On February 17 2012 02:39 JayDee_ wrote: EMP rapes toss, snipe is good against spell casters, nuke is good to move tank lines, and they are able to scout around while cloaked. These are enough abilities to justify making ghosts. Taking away their "kill anything" ability is a good thing imo.
That was the reason why I said "unreasonable". This brings it out better than my long post. The snipe gets nerfed and suddenly everyone is like "omg, ghost useless". But its not.
Terran depends on the ghost in lots ogf matchups ... if you think that is good then you shuold hate the nerf.
If you do not want terran to depend on the ghost in those matchups (EG late game zerg and protoss) then you need to nerf it ... to then mak eit visible what areas need to be buffed to compensate
But if you are trying to change the metagame then you ened to do things slowly
ala the ghost nerf
Its NOT EVEN CLOSE to being on the same scale as removing amulet
QXC makes a great point. If you don't want snipe to own zerg teir 3, nerf the damage vs zerg teir 3.
It's ridiculous to say "snipe deals too much damage to brood lords and ultralisks, let's make it not kill marines or zerglings in 1 shot and make it kill zealots in 2x as many shots."
While i do agree that it isnt good to have one unit that has a "kill anything" ability as JayDee stated, I don't think snipe is that ability it requires high apm to use it effectively and it only works on bio units anyway maybe it is a little too strong against broodlords and ultralisks, and it seems like thats what the community in general believes. If thats the case i understand the need for a nerf, however it does seem a little high going from 45 to 25 agains all but a handfull of units and honestly its the only decent spell caster terrans have aside from raven which while usefull isnt really a fully utilized unit. Basically it just seems like this will only narrow down the options that terran has as far as unit composition in a race that is already fairly narrowed down. Not that I am saying it will be useless after the nerf it will just be less useful.
I agree with QXC here. As a zerg often on the receiving end of the ghost snipe, something obviously needs to be done to the damage to broodlords and ultralisk. But the proposed change narrows the ghost's use far to much. In addition 25 damage seems too low. So something along the end of 45 basic damage, 30 vs massive, 50 vs psionic sounds about right.
So what exactly are you propsing then? They are too strong vs zerg tier3. It's too cost efficient. My idea is making snipe take more energy... then that means less snipes per ghost with same damage.
Since when is the ghost SUPPOSED to be the counter to non-psionic units? + you have some of the best stutterstep micro out there... why would you wanna waste energy on sniping banelings while you can stutterstep and own them anyway? Terran is the most forgiving race when it comes to macro, but is probably the most micro intensive. Deal with it like Protoss did in BW imo... Nice post though.
On February 17 2012 05:22 Dharmok wrote: I agree with QXC here. As a zerg often on the receiving end of the ghost snipe, something obviously needs to be done to the damage to broodlords and ultralisk. But the proposed change narrows the ghost's use far to much. In addition 25 damage seems too low. So something along the end of 45 basic damage, 30 vs massive, 50 vs psionic sounds about right.
Completely agree. Not being able to one shot zerglings and marines is just silly imo.
On February 17 2012 05:36 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: So what exactly are you propsing then? They are too strong vs zerg tier3. It's too cost efficient. My idea is making snipe take more energy... then that means less snipes per ghost with same damage.
I agree with this too...snipe cost is too low as it is. Make it higher so a small armry of ghosts can't own 2-3 remax'd zerg T3 armies on one full bar of energy.
On February 17 2012 05:36 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: So what exactly are you propsing then? They are too strong vs zerg tier3. It's too cost efficient. My idea is making snipe take more energy... then that means less snipes per ghost with same damage.
Did you read the post? He explains everything quite well.
On February 17 2012 06:39 Tabashi wrote: Since when is the ghost SUPPOSED to be the counter to non-psionic units? + you have some of the best stutterstep micro out there... why would you wanna waste energy on sniping banelings while you can stutterstep and own them anyway? Terran is the most forgiving race when it comes to macro, but is probably the most micro intensive. Deal with it like Protoss did in BW imo... Nice post though.
Are you really saying protoss in BW was the most micro intensive race? lol?
With this change snipe will go back to never, ever being used. What's so hard about nerfing the damage vs massive? Nobody was complaining that snipe was doing too much damage to anything other than zerg tier 3. Yet, it was against every single unit except infestors, ht, dt, queens and other ghosts.
I can't believe I'm here defending against a Terran nerf, but I agree with QXC here. Even though I don't think snipe should be changed at all, QXC's compromise suggestion still seems much more reasonable than what Blizzard is proposing.
i wish blizzard had smart people like this that made the final balance decisions for the game. The kind that you know understand the game and actually think things through
I would like to preface with I think you are a pretty good player and I do enjoy watching when you get the chance to play.
However, I think you are being a bit blinded and naive when it comes to this change to ghosts. I also think you have not thought it through enough before you actually posted your thoughts about it. Let me highlight some of the issues you fail you adress.
If we cut to the core of your statements: "Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations. " - QXC "Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful." - QXC
What you are proposing doesn't "solve" the problem. I agree that an X damage with a subtraction element is a reasonable idea, but you are using it wrong. What you are proposing is actually a buff instead of a nerf. Instead of doing 45 damage ghosts will now do 50 damage (with your proposition) and only have a reduced damage to a few creatures. You see, the reason that the ghosts got nerfed was because they were too powerful and too-all round. Not only because of their effect on ultras and broodlords. Their effect and ability to decimate such tier 3 zerg armies.
Basically you have a unit that is fast, does bonus damage to light, can cloak, can fire missiles and can deplete shields as well as energy. You are complaining over a nerf and want to twist it around to a buff with a diminishing effect to a total of three units? That makes no sense at all. Having ghosts do 25 damage is wrong simply because it feels weird to have to two-shot a zergling or baneling. But other than those two units, it is fine. You want to snipe marines? Sure - that can still be done with two snipes now. That is only a cost of 50 energy. That is nothing in the grand scheme of things where you get to kill marines for free. If you look on the nerf as a whole, the only thing it does is make it so that the ghost is not the counter to everything. Instead it has a smaller window of uses. For taking out infestors and high templars. Seeing these all ghost armies cloaking around and sniping out entire armies was silly. Complaining about this nerf might be valid. But it is not like the terran race is dependant on ghosts for anything else than taking out caster types. The rest of our army compositions are very versitile and this will force us terrans to actually play a bit more tactical.
On a side note it is a bit condancending to throw out a comment like only pro players who do this for a living have a clue. You are mortal humans and you don't always have 20-20 vision on things.
great post by a respectable community person, we need more pro opinions on snipe, not just blizzards gold-league balancing division who only listens to whine and bitching
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
i struggle to see how a ghost is better than an infestor or a HT.
they're all super powerful, cost effective and versatile. yes they've all been heavily nerfed and tweaked since release, but this is taking it too far. removal of kaldirim amulet was nothing compared to this... storm is godlike, imagine old storm in the current metagame... lmao.
if snipe nerf goes ahead, ghosts become mediocre at dealing with EVERYTHING except casters... becoming a dumb 'anti-caster' unit. except for nuking, which is a different mechanic altogether and might as well be completely unrelated to ghosts (it's not like your nuking is better with 20 ghosts than it was with 2-3 ghosts).
i would like to see snipe receive a cooldown (so you can't exploit it by having fancy mouse drivers) but have the same damage, or i would like to see cooldown REMOVED from transfuse so queens could effectively counter snipe.
because imo the only thing stopping queens from being a hardcounter to snipe is the fact that transfuse has a 0.5-1 second animation which acts as a cooldown which is much longer than the snipe animation (which can be overwritten by spamming anyway).
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
I notice that every single dissenting voice in this thread has utterly failed at reading comprehension, trying to make this a debate about the TvZ T3 when it has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Incidentally, the engine provides several ways to implement the change as QXC suggests:
1) "50 damage, 35 to massive" 2) "50 damage, -15 to massive" (just put a minus sign on the bonus in the attribute) 3) "35 damage, +15 to normal (non-massive)"
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes.
Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time ....
I understand Qxc's point but Blizzard is not backing down on this one, they clearly said that the ghost is not supposed to counter every single unit in the game, thus the fix. It doesnt matter if it is "fun" to see ghosts one shot banelings, the point is terran has other options to do that task so there is no need for a unit that counters everything...
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes.
Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time ....
If he has two spines and a spore, so what? Back up and drop a nuke on it?
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes.
Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time ....
If he has two spines and a spore, so what? Back up and drop a nuke on it?
That's not the point ... we can go on with this little game for very long than ...
Huhhhh .... more spines more spores so nuke doesn't reach the hatch ???
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
2 spines and one spore my good lord .... all it takes.
Now I totally agree with the general message of this post. This nerf of ghosts won't only be a way to counter Zerg T3, it just makes ghosts useless in so many situations that you just won't see anymore ghosts unless mass infestors or HT are on the field. So great! All other races bring casters to the fight in order to fight opponent's armies, Terran will now bring their casters only to fight ennemy casters, and be useless the rest of the time ....
If he has two spines and a spore, so what? Back up and drop a nuke on it?
That's not the point ... we can go on with this little game for very long than ...
Huhhhh .... more spines more spores so nuke doesn't reach the hatch ???
Then you're asking a zerg to spend upward of 1000 minerals to stop something that costs 300/200.
EDIT: It's not that nuke in itself is necessarily overpowered, it's the the ghost has all the tools it needs (or even two ghosts) two be dropped off in a base, thwart detection, and demolish the zerg's base. It has multiple options even in this very specific role. Two ghosts can do a lot of damage to a mineral line by just shooting, by sniping drones, by backing away and dropping a nuke outside a spore's detection range, by sniping a queen, EMPing a queen, sniping larva, thwarting detection attempts, etc.
I don't know if this has been raised before, but in the original post, Infestor is listed both as a unit that would take "less damage" and "more damage" in the post patch situation. That ought to be corrected...
a ghost is not meant to be a "generally versatile unit vs. bio". of course as a terran you would love to have such a unit, but why should you, when no other race has an equivalent? how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP.
compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords?
"ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.-
i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
On February 18 2012 00:44 cari-kira wrote: a ghost is not meant to be a "generally versatile unit vs. bio". of course as a terran you would love to have such a unit, but why should you, when no other race has an equivalent? how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP.
compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords?
"ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.-
i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op.
why should any race be the same, in fact let's all stop playing starcraft and go back to Warcraft I. Pretty sure every race is the same there.
The ghost was a necessity because of the fact that it's pretty hard to tech switch as a Terran. Despite the fact that everyone seems to think that scans are something that is free (which until very very late game, it is), we still have to figure out if they are going Ultras or Broodlords, Templar or Collossi. Each of these things that we see, require a huge tech switch from our part. We can't make 12 units at once, we can't just warp stuff in. This is why we need a versatile unit. Was the ghost too versatile? Probably yeah, that's why they nerfed it. But the nerf goes in the wrong direction.
On February 18 2012 02:31 Chrono000 wrote: The nerf is good. I think the patch gives Terran less versatile units to pick from. Difficult, but better choices in units will arise.
Strongly disagree. Instead of crippling one race which felt complete, Blizzard should focus on making the others better/more complete.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
"Instead of 25 +25 to Psionic make ghosts do 50 base damage with some reduced amount vs. massive. You still get the reduced damage vs. Ultralisks and Broodlords and Ghosts can still 2 shot snipe infestors to help compensate a bit for the reduced damage. A reduction vs. massive wouldn't negatively affect every other situation where snipe could be useful.
Whether 25 damage is too big of a nerf or not is an argument for another blog. My primary argument is that it should be a subtraction vs. massive and not a + vs. psionic so that ghosts remain useful in other situations."
Here's a nice summary - quoted exactly from qxc's post. Why don't you read that before you start raging about how Terrans should get this nerf cause ghosts are so op or whatever
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
Seriously dense
Of course it limits what the ghost can do otherwise,in other matchups, in other situations, it's very very obvious Blizzard wants the ghost to fulfill a primary anti-caster role. It's not just a nerf, its Blizzard finding where they want the unit and putting in there.
Ghost are broken because of their abilities to deal with all zergs Tier 3 units (including infestors) - not the ability to snipe a marine in one shot.
Therefore, qxc's post makes perfect sense: keep the original snipe, but reduced damage taken by Massive units (T should emp the archons anyways ^c^,)
Diamond Zerg here
It's not just Tier 3...for the most part it is, but they're so strong in many different situations.
Well? Come on. List these different situations if you're gonna make this claim. I'm pretty sure in the current metagame, snipe is really only used to such great effect and in mass numbers in TvZ endgame against Ultras and Broodlords.
Nukes: Forcing a stationary army to move. Random nuking of expansions denies mining and/or the entire expansion. Destroying clustered bases/production facilities with low-cost. (100/100 * 3 or 4) Nukes aren't just damaging directly, however. When you drop one, a warning is given, but it could be literally anywhere on the map. Anything a player is currently doing/microing must be dropped and the little red dot must be found and then the ghost has to be dealt with or, or units and buildings protected. It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100 and the APM is about 2. For the player deal with the nuke, he must quickly search every space he occupies on the map to find the dot, and then secure the location however he can in a very short period of time.
EMP: Probably most damaging skill in game after the nuke vs Protoss, removes large amounts of shield from every Protoss unit. Hard counters every caster, can prevent injects from Queens, can prevent an orbital from doing anything. Reveals cloaked units in a pinch.
Snipe: Currently, hard counters Zerg T3. Can be used to kill Larva. Zerg's only mobile detection, Overseers, and Queens can be easily killed by a single cloaked ghost, leaving it with enough energy to position itself and drop a nuke (From full)
Can do all of these things while cloaked. Versus Protoss, ghosts can reveal observers and then kill them in 3 regular shots. Against Zerg, a single ghost with full energy can kill two overseers in just a few seconds. Not only can ghosts cloak, but they have the skills to fucking hard counter the only mobile detection the other races have. That's freaking crazy.
It's fucking broken man, it doesn't need to be this versatile. If we need to buff something to help Terran with late game Zerg, fine, but a unit shouldn't be able to do all of this, this is absurd.
There's no reason they can't be more broken honestly. When a zerg max army is out, drop a ghost at each hatchery and snipe the larva. Each full energy ghost can kill 10 larva. 4 ghosts can kill 40 larva. How can a zerg remax with that?
Sure, I'll bite. Might as well since you're gonna do the same thing and I got some time to burn.
Templars:
Storm: Hey look, I can make anything that's clumped up melt. Bio?! LOL! Workers!? LOL!
Feedback: Shuts down Terran drops with a cannon at each base, kills casters in basically 1 hit if they have enough energy.
Turn into Archons: Yup, once these great spellcasters are out of energy, 2 of them turn into a giant ball of fun that goes to wreck a Terran army if you don't have enough ghosts to EMP or you vastly outnumber the Protoss (and they have no zealots to back it up)
Infestors:
Fungal Growth: Hey look, it's like Storm except you can't even micro out of it. Kills most workers in 2 shots, you sneak some infestors into a base, fungal twice, and you literally can't even react before you lose them.
Infested Terrans: Once again, sneak some into the base, or an expo, dump all the energy into infested terrans, kill bases without even moving your army. Can I move in and go kill them? Nope they do too much DPS and I probably won't get there fast enough cause 25 energy per egg, 200 energy total, 1-2 infestors = 16 infestors. hohoho this is like 2 medivacs worth of drops.
Neural Parasite: yeah so like I can control units in the game, like make an worker build me a base or something. I don't know, I haven't seen it used in awhile and I can't even parody something for this.
Look at that, I can make pretty much every other caster seem OP as well. It literally boggles my mind when people complain about stuff that you can do so simple counters to and you're just like, WELL HE'LL JUST DROP A NUKE FURTHER BACK OR SOMETHING.
Also
" It has almost no cost to a Terran. A ghost is 200/100. The nuke is 100/100"
a 300/100 investment, is not nothing. Even to Terrans who people think don't really need resources.
The point is this, the ghost as a unit is a very specific unit. It's used to counter other spellcasters, nukes, and to snipe T3 Zerg units. The only thing that was even overpowered was the fact that snipe countered every zerg T3. The problem is that with the snipe nerf, they are nerfing not just the fact that we counter zerg T3, but the fact that snipe becomes too weak, and will be hard to innovate/fit into builds for stuff LIKE what qxc listed.
I had a whole thing typed out but decided its not worth it. I made my points well enough in the other post. The uses you listed for the other units don't in any way match up to the number and type of uses I gave to the ghost. On top of that, as I pointed out, not only can ghosts do them ALL while cloaked, but they also have the means to counter the means of mobile detection of the other races. Infestors don't have that, high templar don't have that. And to top it all off? Post-patch, the ghost will be able to demolish either of the other casters, while staying completely cloaked.
If you can't deal with broodlord/infestor when infestors die in two snipes, you have a problem. Even if a zerg makes 16 infestors for a push, that's 32 snipes at 25 energy a piece. Means four full-energy ghosts can completely nullify them. Make 8 or so to be safe, that way you have energy to cloak and avoid detection. If you for some reason you can't manage that, shower them with EMPs. If you can't manage that, split up your ghosts and nuke their deathball. If you can't manage that, put one in a medivac with 6 marines and drop/nuke all their bases. If you can't manage that, use their reduced snipe to damage the brood lords and infestors, and viking/marine/tank to clean up the rest. And if you can't manage that, come whine on the forum about your useless unit.
You have horrible reading comprehension. No one said the nerf was unnecessary. It was necessary. It's just how it's done is bad because it limits what Terrans can do otherwise, which has nothing to do with Broodlords or Ultras or whatever the deathball is. All I want is to not have my options limited in other matchups and in other situations just cause the ghost got abused in one matchup, in a late game situation. If you read anything in the original post, you'd actually understand that.
Reading. It helps.
Edit: Also, infestors can't do that? They can literally sit there, in a base, for an infinite amount of time while burrowed, and being able to use infested Terrans. Oh no, they aren't exactly like the ghost cause they cant' do everything while borrowed! That's OP!
Seriously dense
Of course it limits what the ghost can do otherwise,in other matchups, in other situations, it's very very obvious Blizzard wants the ghost to fulfill a primary anti-caster role. It's not just a nerf, its Blizzard finding where they want the unit and putting in there.
Hence why the topic, cause really no terran feels that the change should warrant this large of a nerf because it'll kill other options that we can potentially use the ghost for. Who knows, what if one day the metagame becomes a snipefest of ghosts vs zealots in TvP, but we won't ever see that cause snipe is nerfed to a stupid amount.
I can't think of any reason other than as preparation for removing energy drain from emp that blizzard would make snipe only anti psionic (ie counter the class that emp is already used to combat)
Realy agree with TO... I mean it's so obvious. They want to nerf snipe vs Massive (tier3 zerg) and nerf it versus everything (mutas, marines, zealots, banelings, and workers!..)... but casters. Snipe was just "viable" vs anything ingame. It was in no way overpowered. Just vs Massive T3-zerg units it is o.p.. No one used only Ghosts to snipe armies it was very balanced. If they still do this crap with snipe they would remove alot of strategies based around that. I loved playing ghosts vs Zerg back when I was terran. It was not op but it was playable. I loved suprising my enemy in TvT with a ghost-push before his marines had combat-shield. Why would you remove these underused but playable strategies? Why give Terran less strategies? No reason to.
And I don#t realy know why there has to be opened such a big thread with so many explanations about it that are obvious when you know the game and played Terran for at least some months.. so that Blizzzard could possibly notice it. .. !?!
I play protoss and snipe is not op vs my zealots and it is not op vs my dark templar... I can just honor a terran who has the micro to use the rest of the ghosts energy to snipe some zealots... with this Patch even this minor Micro bonus would be ridiculous that you rather don't use snipe at all because every split second you waste for 25 damage per snipe will be wasted totally. Because oh wait: Ghosts do actually 20(22,24,26) damage per shot to zealots and mutas.. so lets just auto attack!
Balance? Templars do DPS to every unit. Infestors do DPS to every unit. Ghosts will only remove shields! (zealots are mostly teched only to armor! shields are pointless anyways) Ghosts will not only only remove shileds they will only damage casters. Besides of that Snipe is a SINGLE DPS skill.. totally bad in starcraft where AOE is important. So another reason why snipe nerfing is bad (we are not speaking vs massive here). Ghosts are underused already besides of some EMP'ing. Don't remove them from the strategy pool.
BTW: No moderation here? so many trolls in the thread.. this:
On February 18 2012 01:42 cari-kira wrote: Terrans crying for better units? + Show Spoiler +
On February 18 2012 00:44 cari-kira wrote: a ghost is not meant to be a "generally versatile unit vs. bio". of course as a terran you would love to have such a unit, but why should you, when no other race has an equivalent? how many counters do you need for broodlords? you already have range 9 vikings! yes, they can get fungaled, but you have ghosts to deny that with snipes and EMP.
compare that to the PvZ lategame scenario. how many counters have Protoss for broodlords?
"ghosts may be put into the ground before they've even learned to crawl"??? oh c'mon... -.-
i personally think, snipe should have been made 50 energy with 45 dmg per hit and personal cloaking is still op.
Aw c'mon, this is getting ridiculous, lets not SPAM or say something is IMBA here, when u obviously ar biased.
Personal cloaking is OP? Really? Says the PROTOSS with his DTs?
And you may not know, but when Broods are out, most of the time, Corruptors are as well and they pretty well can counter Vikings so there is no real counter left 4 T if Z has some Corruptors. And yes, you can take out corruptos with Vikings, Marines etc U can also try to Nuke, or attack with Thor. Not effective, but it will always be effective enough, that players of other races complain about it :D.
Oh and yes: you point out 1 good counter to Broodlords are enough as Terran and assume Protoss does only have one as well. Lets count, as I am not really good at these things - (I only startet playing Toss a week ago (before that T and Z) and I already can counter Broods better than with Terran...). But for me, it worked quite well ( vs Dia/Masters EU Zerg): Voids, Phoenix, Blink Stalker, some Storms (pretty easy against that slow unit :D), Mothership with cloaking (but Terran personal cloaking is OP/IMBA) and Archon Toilet... I am sure I forgot something - as I said I am only playing 4 a week now and this is what I tried out successfully yet, but maybe there is more
And for your other posts with the Videos, i hope a MOD sees it, because its nothing else then trolling...
On February 18 2012 01:42 cari-kira wrote: Terrans crying for better units?
no shame at all.
those videos aren't even comparable to a real game situation. On top of that they aren't crying for a better unit the issue is that you are basically nullifying the use of the ghost' snipe ability.
I do agree that the nerf should be handled at -vs massive as opposed to +vs psionic. Additionally on a side note even I believe the ghost nerf is too much and I'm not a terran player.
On February 17 2012 23:17 TheBlueMeaner wrote: I understand Qxc's point but Blizzard is not backing down on this one, they clearly said that the ghost is not supposed to counter every single unit in the game, thus the fix. It doesnt matter if it is "fun" to see ghosts one shot banelings, the point is terran has other options to do that task so there is no need for a unit that counters everything...
Having utility suddenly means they counter everything? They're a fucking spellcaster. High templars/infestors counter everything cause storm/fungal hurt every unit. Herp derp. Did you read what you typed before hitting the post button?
They clearly said ghosts aren't supposed to nullify T3 zerg units. There is absolutely no reason to nerf them any further than beyond that problem explicitly stated by Blizzard.
Are u serious... U dont charge mutas into a marine pack, PERIOD U dont charge zerglings with absolutely no Banelings into a marine pack And I dont think you have seen what late game Mass Zealot warp is capable of,
If your trying to make a arguement, these videos are deffs not it. Cant even believe you made such a comment as this.
So basically, the only practical use for snipe is going to be against HTs, Ghosts, and Infestors?
I guess Blizzard really want to make Zerg the most superior race going into HotS because the way I see it, we (Terrans) have no effective counter for Zerg late game, exactly the same as boat as Protoss. This damage reduction is WAAAAAAY too much and will make it 4x harder to hold wave after wave of brood/ultralisk.
pardon my vocabulary but this nerf is downright retarded. i've always stated that in late-game tvz the ghost is broken but reduce snipe's damage by 50%? seriously? like qxc said, it basically makes the ghost a walking EMP and one of the least cost-efficient units in the game (while it's always been, along with the raven, my favorite sc2 terran unit). and no, a 25 damage snipe is not good against broodlords, it's freaking terrible, wake the hell up. tvz late game is going to become unwinable for t while it was, i believe, balanced overall except on shakuras.
I am a terran. And I do not know if a nerf to the anti-tier 3 ability was warranted. This means I do not mind if it's nerfed, as I am sure Blizzard did it for a good reason, and I don't have enough experience to judge either way.
But I do know:
1) Blizz clearly stated the change was directed at TvZ Tier 3, not anything else. Indeed, we have not seen snipe used at high levels for anything else yet, so it can't be judged for balance yet. 2) Therefore, the change as stated is incorrect. It stops the ghost being useful in any situation but vs other caster, restricting this expensive, vulnerable unit to tiny niche that no other caster unit in the game is limited to comparably. QXC's implementation of the nerf is far more sensible. 3) Finally, regardless of the above, 50% is way too much. Logic: I don't know if it was warranted, but if it was 100% too powerful then I would have known pretty fast. If a change is needed, fine, but 20-35% is the range they should be trying first.
On February 19 2012 00:24 IMsomnu wrote: Any terran nerf is well received.
Why do you people like you 1) Post in a thread like this with a non-sequiter, content-less, glib post that shows you didn't actually read the OP? 2) Survive on TL past your 1st post? Your first 7, and only, posts have been pointless, one-line trolls. Are the mods asleep?
Are u serious... U dont charge mutas into a marine pack, PERIOD U dont charge zerglings with absolutely no Banelings into a marine pack And I dont think you have seen what late game Mass Zealot warp is capable of,
If your trying to make a arguement, these videos are deffs not it. Cant even believe you made such a comment as this.
look whos talking.. i wonder how terrans would cry, when marines would lose ALL no-micro-unit-tester-wars
These videos are all completely pointless and serve no purpose...the fact that you would even attempt to use this bullshit as evidence towards imbalance is ludicrous
I just played a late game TVZ, Ghost didn't do anything after the patch! Is Viking better than ghost lategame kno? I tried to Snipe all of enemies Broodlords, but they just didnt die at all! And we both had max suply and good eco.
I think they maybe overnerf the ghost by quite a bit!
On February 19 2012 09:09 SiiMiiK wrote: I just played a late game TVZ, Ghost didn't do anything after the patch! Is Viking better than ghost lategame kno? I tried to Snipe all of enemies Broodlords, but they just didnt die at all! And we both had max suply and good eco.
I think they maybe overnerf the ghost by quite a bit!
Unless you're a professional player these personal observations do not hold much weight.
On February 19 2012 09:09 SiiMiiK wrote: I just played a late game TVZ, Ghost didn't do anything after the patch! Is Viking better than ghost lategame kno? I tried to Snipe all of enemies Broodlords, but they just didnt die at all! And we both had max suply and good eco.
I think they maybe overnerf the ghost by quite a bit!
Cool story bro. Guess you'll get into real trouble lategame TvZ once the patch is actually released, which will be sometime next week.
I agree that Blizzard needed to do something about ghosts, but the damage reduction seems too big. IMO, ghosts aren't specialists if they can be used in many scenarios. If you are going to make the argument that "ghosts" are supposed to adapt to "every" scenario, this is sc2 and the "ghosts" in sc2 are covert ops units, not long range artillery against bl and ultras. Still, I agree with qxc on this one. I would have also considered an energy increase on snipe if out of cloak.
No offense to this good post, but this just seems like the obvious answer. The alleged problem with ghosts was with Zerg tier three, as was specified by Blizzard balance people. Make the unit that you feel is imbalanced do less damage to the unit it is doing too much damage too. I just does not seem that difficult or complex. Furthermore, it makes perfect common sense. An ability called "snipe" should do more damage to lighter units in which a sniper round would do a lot of damage. Vs a huge unit it would not be as effective.
If I did not know any better, I would think that the Blizzard solution was actually some troll. This really just seems super obvious. The solution that they came up with is not only bad for balance, but very convoluted.
nice post. when i read of the update, i thought about something else though... why not increase cooldown of snipe? that way its still effective on smaller units (caster/bling), as it kills quick with a couple of ghosts, but it wont be as effective against big units (broodlord/ultra) it would also influence harassing and clashes with small units, but i dont feel like snipe should be usefull against marines/lings w/e
On February 15 2012 03:16 archangel967 wrote: I still think this change (or one with similar numbers) is reasonable. The ghost and specifically the snipe ability was not meant to be an answer to everything. I think changing this will only be good.
And in regards to the comments being made here and by others about how this will change the matchup. The matchups are constantly changing whether from patching or from shifts in the metagame. I don't feel it's reasonable to expect the game to remain the same so you can perfect your strategies. As a viewer more than a player this only makes the game more interesting for me. I appreciate that it's difficulty to deal with these shifts as the one that is playing with them day to day but I still don't think this change is as game breaking as is being advertised.
Well as a viewer you must understand you lack of understanding of the game and its balance. What qxc is saying is basically, this nerf will make the ghost a cost inefficient unit. And we don't want to have those in the game do we now?
I appreciate your thoughts on this qxc. I was 100% in favor of the nerf before, but you've given me some pause in supporting it (not that my support anyway).
On February 19 2012 01:43 RedDog51 wrote: QXC, thank-you for your post/blog. You have analyzed the situation in a very reasonable way. We need more vocal pro-gamers like you.
I feel like credit where credit is due, this change was proposed and discussed in length in the patch note thread, long before qxc brought it up on SotG. It great of him to put the ideas from that thread in the spotlight though because it's a good suggestion.
I cant even say how much i COMPLETELY agree with everything that is said hear I loved to use a ghost or 2 early in TvT to punish 1 rax expands as well as throw a ghost in a medivac drop snipe a couple workers and pick up. To have these basically made cost inefficient so that they can fix its use to use on tier 3 zerg is not smart at all just make it do less to massive and keep everything else the same
Im suprised that no one has thought of the way that blizzard belives snipe is suposed to work in the first place. For picking of a few key units in an army not for smashing through armies. The damage nerf is not the way to push the gohst back into that direction and the fact that they now have plus vs phy implies that all key units worth sniping are casters, which as descusted, is not the case, banes, eirly game marines muta so on. I think a short cool down on snipe with no damge change would be a better option, say 5seconds? It would allow the player to make desisions about which units should be sniped which will allow for futuer invovation and the cool down would prevent mass snipe spaming against core army units. I think that it would also force players to put more consideration into wether they will snipe or EMP against casters, eg EMP HTs becuase you can;t snipe them fast enough, but if you have enough ghost you could go for snipe.
At least to some extent the change reflects that Blizzard are trying to maintain a uniform system for spell effects. However, as they already departed from that with the change to fungal growth, I don't see why Snipe can't work like that as well, i.e. X damage (Z damage to UnitType).
edit: Oh crap, I just realized: The first change to Fungal was the added damage by a percentage, and then they reverted to static damages depending on type. Currently there's no spell that does bonus damage to certain unittypes (description-wise, as fungal doesn't do bonus damage to armored, it just does more damage if that makes any sense), so with this change the way snipe works is unique and doesn't conform to the rest of the system, it's more like a normal attack than a spell. So qxc's suggestion is actually more in line with how spells work overall. But I'm sure all of that is secondary to actual balance.
ghost nerf was kneejerk reaction, a poor balance decision, and the first of what i'm sure will become a string of questionable balance changes.
I base what i've just said off the how much time and effort goes into making a balance change. For this ghost change to have gotten through the testing, that means pretty much anything can go through. Pretty much every unit in starcraft does too much damage and as a result, one battle determines much of starcraft 2. In broodwar, 200/200 armies were a rarity. In sc2, people turtle to 200 extremely often, and skill is more about remaxing your army in a short amount of time.
This ghost nerf fits right in then, doesn't it? One less thing to micro because it doesn't matter anymore, 25 damage is equivalent to ghost's auto attack. Why would you snipe when you can just auto attack
On February 15 2012 03:21 Balgrog wrote: Awesome blog, hopefully blizzard will read this and take it into consideration.
They would have taken it into consideration before they announced the changes. Now to admit the changes suck and switch to a more effective method of resolving the problem would be embarassing for them.
Listen blizzard is a company full of nerds, but they wear suits. The nerd realizes he's wrong but the suit makes decisions, and the suit isn't going to look stupid just because the nerd is right.
As far as I am concerned ghost have needed a nerf for a while. Saying "oh blizzard dont balance them yet, we have barely had a chance to exploit them" isnt a viable response. Ghost are not meant to be an easy counter to everything, marines, hydras, roaches, banelings, mutas, zealots, marauders, etc... Really? you essentially named entire unit compositions.
Ghost should not be used that way, they werent intended to be used that way and I am glad blizzard say this before it had a chance to go any further.
On February 20 2012 08:53 Doso wrote: Ghosts will go the way of the reaper. When was the last time you've seen more than 2 Reapers in a game?
On that note I really like reapers' building attack for taking down rocks later, and I hope Blizzard doesn't change that as they talked about with the HotS stuff last Blizzcon. Otherwise, cue the Turian councilor, "Ah yes, 'reapers.'"
On February 15 2012 03:21 Balgrog wrote: Awesome blog, hopefully blizzard will read this and take it into consideration.
They would have taken it into consideration before they announced the changes. Now to admit the changes suck and switch to a more effective method of resolving the problem would be embarassing for them.
Listen blizzard is a company full of nerds, but they wear suits. The nerd realizes he's wrong but the suit makes decisions, and the suit isn't going to look stupid just because the nerd is right.
Are you new to SC2? Almost every patch has had changes reverted between PTR and live after community feedback.
I think the change is fine imo. Ghosts should be able to act as a caster because that's essentially what they are. I think snipes are good because they're instant damage vs infestors still, however, infestors have utility which is not immediately damaging. Ghosts would still be useful for EMPing infestors that act as a defensive unit for broodlord support against vikings. And really, when have ultralisks really been a problem that a regular bio army with tanks can't handle.
I don't think the change is bad. Maybe the numbers need tweaking, but from what I can tell the apparent issue is that ghosts arent cost effective against every biological unit anymore.
I think people are forgetting that ghosts still do damage with snipe! No they don't kill units as effectively as before, but you can still get several hundred damage out of snipe that combined with the rest of your army, can still tear through a lot of Zerg compositions.
In their current state, ghosts are literally never a bad choice against Zerg, which is just silly. They should fail against roach heavy or ultra heavy compositions, but snipe just does so much damage that ghosts can pretty much handle anything.
Finally, snipe isn't the ghosts only spell. To say they will be shelved alongside reapers is in my opinion an idiotic claim when they are such incredibly versatile units. Snipe, emp and nuke are all still perfectly usable spells, only now no one of them is insanely good.
totally agreed w/ HystericalLaughter. plus if it turns out that the balance is severley (negative) affected i'm sure that blizzard could fix that as well. plus i'm happy that the reaper sort of disapeared (in terms of a viewer) as i remember every tvz was reaper vs. queen in the early game. now there is more variety and the reaper is used to scout or in rare timing attacks.
Are u serious... U dont charge mutas into a marine pack, PERIOD U dont charge zerglings with absolutely no Banelings into a marine pack And I dont think you have seen what late game Mass Zealot warp is capable of,
If your trying to make a arguement, these videos are deffs not it. Cant even believe you made such a comment as this.
look whos talking.. i wonder how terrans would cry, when marines would lose ALL no-micro-unit-tester-wars
As you came here only for trolling, may I ask you if you ever got to know the game "Rock, Paper, Scissors"? If you ever did so, I ask you: are you always arguing why a rock beats a scissors when u lost?
Cause in a simple way, this is all what this is about. You attack with scissors when i roll a stone over you. You shout "IMBA", because you were too lazy to think of other options then the scissors and try it again and again with more and more scissors.
OFC you ignored my post, where you pointed out personal cloaking is IMBA and Toss has not efficient more weapons against Broodlords than Terran and I prove this wrong, cause not accepting things is easier then to learn how to play the "rock-paper-scissors" game
On February 20 2012 18:30 HystericaLaughter wrote: I don't think the change is bad. Maybe the numbers need tweaking, but from what I can tell the apparent issue is that ghosts arent cost effective against every biological unit anymore.
I think people are forgetting that ghosts still do damage with snipe! No they don't kill units as effectively as before, but you can still get several hundred damage out of snipe that combined with the rest of your army, can still tear through a lot of Zerg compositions.
In their current state, ghosts are literally never a bad choice against Zerg, which is just silly. They should fail against roach heavy or ultra heavy compositions, but snipe just does so much damage that ghosts can pretty much handle anything.
Finally, snipe isn't the ghosts only spell. To say they will be shelved alongside reapers is in my opinion an idiotic claim when they are such incredibly versatile units. Snipe, emp and nuke are all still perfectly usable spells, only now no one of them is insanely good.
The issue isn't that Ghosts aren't cost effective against EVERY bio unit anymore, its that the intended goal was to make the Ghost less effective against tier 3 zerg (i.e. Broodlords, Ultralisks) ONLY.
"We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well."
- David Kim
Therefore the way Blizzard is nerfing Ghosts is not the correct way as the reduction to Snipe affects EVERY bio unit instead of the intended objective of ONLY tier 3 zerg. Secondly, Mass Roach DOES in fact beat Mass Ghost. Third, although you say that the other spells of the Ghost are still good, Snipe is one of the most important skill that a Terran player utilizes. To HALF the damage of a bread and butter skill is a huge nerf at the Ghost's utilization.
Currently, it is a Terran's best way to counter the dreaded Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor Combo that a late game Zerg typically fields. On the other hand, the units that a Terran player would have late game would be Marine, Siege Tank, Medivac, Ghost and maybe Vikings and Marauders. Among the 6 units stated: 2 are tier one early game units (Marine, Marauder), 3 are tier two units (Siege Tank, Medivac, Viking), and the only High tech unit a terran fields at tier 2.5 is the Ghost. Comparing the unit composition its easy to see that the Zerg player has a huge advantage late game and that there are only 2 ways a Terran can counter late game Zerg is Mass Vikings or Mass Ghosts.
Mass Vikings get absolutely shredded by Infestors and Corruptors, which brings us to the Mass Ghost strategy. Even then if a Terran goes Mass Ghost and kills all of the Broodlords and Infestors, whats stopping the Zerg maxing out with Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches etc. which eats Mass Ghost for breakfast. The point is that it isn't only that Snipe is overpowered but Terran tier 3 is broken.
Now I'm not saying that the Snipe shouldn't be nerfed because it SHOULD. It is an overpowered ability as of this moment, however what qxc proposes is a change wherein there will be no "collateral damage" on the Snipe's damage output on NON tier 3 zerg.
On February 20 2012 23:45 jdsowa wrote: It's pretty simple. Blizzard doesn't want a T2 caster hard countering an expensive T3 unit. It's the very same logic behind the old infestor nerfs.
I've seen a few terran players finally start to explore seeker missile and yamato cannon vs. zerg T3. Turns out it's quite effective!
Of course, a big group of siege tanks will wipe out an equal cost group of ultras 1:1, and spread thors are better than ultras, too.
I'm not sure folks realize how absurd it is to hear QQing from a race that has had a winrate over 50% for nearly 2 years.
But basicly its no problem that 1 composition (broodlord infestor corruptor) hardcounters basicly everything a terran can make? If you played terran, you would know that without ghosts, lategame tvz is very very hard.
Imagine that you have the same eco as the zerg. He makes infestor broodlord corruptor. What can you make? - Thors? Bug out to broodlings - Vikings? Get fungalled or die vs the corruptors - Ghosts? nerfed - Marines? Broodlings + fungal and they're gone (same for marauders) - Battlecruisers? Hardcountered by corruptors - Tanks? Very bad vs broodlings.
What is left? Ravens? Raven HSM could work, but you could only hold 1 wave. Zerg will remax on mass ultra ling and then what? You will auto turret him?
What no one realises is that we are in the exact same situation as we were before people found out about ghosts. It's the situation where david kim said in an interview that they would look into the broodlord + infestor combination.
Let me be clear, I think QXC's suggestion is probably a fine a one. However, I'm inclined to believe that Terran can win without ghosts. Why? Because I've seen units that were once considered "worthless" suddenly find favor and come into fashion.
Ghosts can still cloak snipe infestors You can drop PDDs against corruptors HSM is *very* effective against clumped zerg air Yamato cannon is effective vs. T3 Ravens also provide detection which defends your tanks against burrowed infestor ITs. A group of tanks is majorly cost effective vs. ultra/ling. While he's remaxing, you need to remax smartly, yourself.
This Terran comp is pretty immobile. I think it would do best camping up around the 3rd/4th/5th, and using drops/nukes/etc to harass against the very immobile broodlord army.
Watch VODs from Idra's stream from this past weekend. He was raging ("this is so broken") against this guy who destroyed him using raven/bc late game against the very composition you're complaining about. And I'm not sure he had very many ghosts, either.
With that out of the way, I really agree that the post-patch snipe is really going to make the ghosts even less used than they are now, and basically force Terran to go MMM for wins all the time. I think that's primarily why they're waiting this long after announcing it to take it out of the Public Test and into the game. Variation is what all the races really need to really flourish, and I really don't want to see ghosts as simply "nuke tech"
But honestly, there are plenty of ways out of this while still dealing with their problem regarding how well snipes work on Zerg tech 3. -As suggested before, snipes could simply go 35+15psyonic, a bit more reasonable -A more effective variation of this would be to have it effect energy-bearing units, rather than just psyonics, similar to how feedback works. In conjunction with the previous I think it'd at least be satisfactory. -If Protoss is getting a new upgrade, why not Terran? An upgrade to improve the snipe back to regularity (or maybe a little lessened) would probably be better, though inevitably this would still present a problem at T3, but at least the greater resource cost is something to consider -Also suggested earlier, just change how it affects massive units. The problem is posed at Ultras and Brood Lords, so (I believe the suggestion was) have the damage remain at 45, with -15 or so against Massive.
There's so many ways to deal with this than the route they're going, and I hope they change their minds by the time the patch hits the servers.
Hmm, I think blizzard wants us Terrans to use Ravens + Hunter Seeker Missiles. But the problem is, it takes 2 hunter seeker missiles to kill a single Broodlord and each Raven can only use 1 Seeker missile at a time. So if Zerg players are anything besides being idiotic and clump up 10 broodlords all together, Raven + Seeker missiles are just not cost effective and unable to stop the broodlord infestor corruptor composition.
With that said, Ghosts become irrelavent vs Broodlords, 12 Snipes to kill a single broodlord and vikings can be easily fungaled. Hmm, I do not really know what to say here but blizzard, really? I mean, all these patches so far, its been helping out Zerg/Protoss players how to play more comfortable rather than improving. The main reason Zerg/Protoss is improving skill-wise is that they rely too much on blizzard giving them buffs to compensate for their lack of intelligence and strive to get better.
It's really sad for me to see how the game is evolving into. Rather than an environment of fairness, instead, many that complain to make their race work in their desired favor.
Anyways, I believe if such patch takes place, and this is the 2nd patch that Terran unit got more than 40% nerf (Ghost Emp Range nerf by 45%), many people will just quit this game especially at the lower league levels because Zergs can just sit there and make 15 Broodlords and take the automatically win. I mean honestly, after the Ghost Emp 45% radius reduction, Protoss players don't even care about spreading our their High Templars because 1 Emp is not enough to drain 5-6 high templars even if they are clumped.
Just really sad that blizzard, instead of helping players to improve, give easy buffs for players that whine and cry for that easy win. =(
I feel the change is too drastic as protoss, it should be like 30+15 or 35+10 to casters. I think scionic will work but 1/2 damage is a bit much. HOWEVER, when amulet was taken out as toss we cried, but we eventually got over it and worked around it, and maybe thats what should be done with this nerf.
On February 21 2012 08:16 docvoc wrote: I feel the change is too drastic as protoss, it should be like 30+15 or 35+10 to casters. I think scionic will work but 1/2 damage is a bit much. HOWEVER, when amulet was taken out as toss we cried, but we eventually got over it and worked around it, and maybe thats what should be done with this nerf.
This isn't Moebius Reactor being taken out, "it's like if marines did 4 base damage".
Starting energy is completely different from damage. If this was a starting energy nerf, then I would simply build Ghosts earlier. Instead, Ghosts now have no viability outside of EMP and countering spellcasters.
On February 21 2012 08:16 docvoc wrote: I feel the change is too drastic as protoss, it should be like 30+15 or 35+10 to casters. I think scionic will work but 1/2 damage is a bit much. HOWEVER, when amulet was taken out as toss we cried, but we eventually got over it and worked around it, and maybe thats what should be done with this nerf.
*Psi-storm now does 40 damage (down from 80), and 65 bonus to psionic units. This fits the lore, and we felt that late game Protoss was too strong against Terran. You can now one-shoot ghosts and infestors, which is great.*
See the problem?
On February 21 2012 05:23 VPFaith wrote: Hmm, I think blizzard wants us Terrans to use Ravens + Hunter Seeker Missiles. But the problem is, it takes 2 hunter seeker missiles to kill a single Broodlord and each Raven can only use 1 Seeker missile at a time. So if Zerg players are anything besides being idiotic and clump up 10 broodlords all together, Raven + Seeker missiles are just not cost effective and unable to stop the broodlord infestor corruptor composition.
With that said, Ghosts become irrelavent vs Broodlords, 12 Snipes to kill a single broodlord and vikings can be easily fungaled. Hmm, I do not really know what to say here but blizzard, really? I mean, all these patches so far, its been helping out Zerg/Protoss players how to play more comfortable rather than improving. The main reason Zerg/Protoss is improving skill-wise is that they rely too much on blizzard giving them buffs to compensate for their lack of intelligence and strive to get better.
It's really sad for me to see how the game is evolving into. Rather than an environment of fairness, instead, many that complain to make their race work in their desired favor.
Anyways, I believe if such patch takes place, and this is the 2nd patch that Terran unit got more than 40% nerf (Ghost Emp Range nerf by 45%), many people will just quit this game especially at the lower league levels because Zergs can just sit there and make 15 Broodlords and take the automatically win. I mean honestly, after the Ghost Emp 45% radius reduction, Protoss players don't even care about spreading our their High Templars because 1 Emp is not enough to drain 5-6 high templars even if they are clumped.
Just really sad that blizzard, instead of helping players to improve, give easy buffs for players that whine and cry for that easy win. =(
You should really try HSM though, because beyond theorycraft, they are awesome in game. Make like 5 or 6 Ravens, they are awesome at taking down creep tumors throughout the game, detecting burrowed lings/banes/infestors, and HSM away the zerg flyers (vs a too big muta ball, yummy).The AOE is quite big and if 2 lands you get Brood Lords with 20 hp... Just try it in game, way easier and less demanding than snipe, too.
On February 21 2012 08:16 docvoc wrote: I feel the change is too drastic as protoss, it should be like 30+15 or 35+10 to casters. I think scionic will work but 1/2 damage is a bit much. HOWEVER, when amulet was taken out as toss we cried, but we eventually got over it and worked around it, and maybe thats what should be done with this nerf.
*Psi-storm now does 40 damage (down from 80), and 65 bonus to psionic units. This fits the lore, and we felt that late game Protoss was too strong against Terran. You can now one-shoot ghosts and infestors, which is great.*
On February 21 2012 05:23 VPFaith wrote: Hmm, I think blizzard wants us Terrans to use Ravens + Hunter Seeker Missiles. But the problem is, it takes 2 hunter seeker missiles to kill a single Broodlord and each Raven can only use 1 Seeker missile at a time. So if Zerg players are anything besides being idiotic and clump up 10 broodlords all together, Raven + Seeker missiles are just not cost effective and unable to stop the broodlord infestor corruptor composition.
With that said, Ghosts become irrelavent vs Broodlords, 12 Snipes to kill a single broodlord and vikings can be easily fungaled. Hmm, I do not really know what to say here but blizzard, really? I mean, all these patches so far, its been helping out Zerg/Protoss players how to play more comfortable rather than improving. The main reason Zerg/Protoss is improving skill-wise is that they rely too much on blizzard giving them buffs to compensate for their lack of intelligence and strive to get better.
It's really sad for me to see how the game is evolving into. Rather than an environment of fairness, instead, many that complain to make their race work in their desired favor.
Anyways, I believe if such patch takes place, and this is the 2nd patch that Terran unit got more than 40% nerf (Ghost Emp Range nerf by 45%), many people will just quit this game especially at the lower league levels because Zergs can just sit there and make 15 Broodlords and take the automatically win. I mean honestly, after the Ghost Emp 45% radius reduction, Protoss players don't even care about spreading our their High Templars because 1 Emp is not enough to drain 5-6 high templars even if they are clumped.
Just really sad that blizzard, instead of helping players to improve, give easy buffs for players that whine and cry for that easy win. =(
You should really try HSM though, because beyond theorycraft, they are awesome in game. Make like 5 or 6 Ravens, they are awesome at taking down creep tumors throughout the game, detecting burrowed lings/banes/infestors, and HSM away the zerg flyers (vs a too big muta ball, yummy).The AOE is quite big and if 2 lands you get Brood Lords with 20 hp... Just try it in game, way easier and less demanding than snipe, too.
On February 21 2012 08:16 docvoc wrote: I feel the change is too drastic as protoss, it should be like 30+15 or 35+10 to casters. I think scionic will work but 1/2 damage is a bit much. HOWEVER, when amulet was taken out as toss we cried, but we eventually got over it and worked around it, and maybe thats what should be done with this nerf.
*Psi-storm now does 40 damage (down from 80), and 65 bonus to psionic units. This fits the lore, and we felt that late game Protoss was too strong against Terran. You can now one-shoot ghosts and infestors, which is great.*
See the problem?
On February 21 2012 05:23 VPFaith wrote: Hmm, I think blizzard wants us Terrans to use Ravens + Hunter Seeker Missiles. But the problem is, it takes 2 hunter seeker missiles to kill a single Broodlord and each Raven can only use 1 Seeker missile at a time. So if Zerg players are anything besides being idiotic and clump up 10 broodlords all together, Raven + Seeker missiles are just not cost effective and unable to stop the broodlord infestor corruptor composition.
With that said, Ghosts become irrelavent vs Broodlords, 12 Snipes to kill a single broodlord and vikings can be easily fungaled. Hmm, I do not really know what to say here but blizzard, really? I mean, all these patches so far, its been helping out Zerg/Protoss players how to play more comfortable rather than improving. The main reason Zerg/Protoss is improving skill-wise is that they rely too much on blizzard giving them buffs to compensate for their lack of intelligence and strive to get better.
It's really sad for me to see how the game is evolving into. Rather than an environment of fairness, instead, many that complain to make their race work in their desired favor.
Anyways, I believe if such patch takes place, and this is the 2nd patch that Terran unit got more than 40% nerf (Ghost Emp Range nerf by 45%), many people will just quit this game especially at the lower league levels because Zergs can just sit there and make 15 Broodlords and take the automatically win. I mean honestly, after the Ghost Emp 45% radius reduction, Protoss players don't even care about spreading our their High Templars because 1 Emp is not enough to drain 5-6 high templars even if they are clumped.
Just really sad that blizzard, instead of helping players to improve, give easy buffs for players that whine and cry for that easy win. =(
You should really try HSM though, because beyond theorycraft, they are awesome in game. Make like 5 or 6 Ravens, they are awesome at taking down creep tumors throughout the game, detecting burrowed lings/banes/infestors, and HSM away the zerg flyers (vs a too big muta ball, yummy).The AOE is quite big and if 2 lands you get Brood Lords with 20 hp... Just try it in game, way easier and less demanding than snipe, too.
The projectile explodes when it reaches its target, causing damage that scales with distance. Specifically, targets within 0.5 range take 100 damage, targets at 1.0 range take 50 damage, while targets at 2.0 range take 25 damage.
Seeker missile is only good against units that are very clumped up. It might be viable for a week before zergs figure out that splitting broodlords hardcounters ravens.
I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
On February 21 2012 17:26 thanhbao86 wrote: I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
to be fair, you can't do anything else when you try to snipe brood/utlra, you need to click like crazy unless you use that scroll wheel trick.
On February 21 2012 17:26 thanhbao86 wrote: I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
Did you even read the OP? Qxc clearly states that the nerf should be a reduction in damage to massive units, not an overall damage nerf. The effect against BL and ultras would be exactly the same as what Blizzard intends to do. The reason Qxc's idea is better is that snipe won't be made completely useless against non-psionic units.
On February 21 2012 17:26 thanhbao86 wrote: I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
Did you even read the OP? Qxc clearly states that the nerf should be a reduction in damage to massive units, not an overall damage nerf. The effect against BL and ultras would be exactly the same as what Blizzard intends to do. The reason Qxc's idea is better is that snipe won't be made completely useless against non-psionic units.
Saying something is completely useless is in fact really extreme too. Why should ghosts be good against every bio units with its sniping ability? Last time i remember ghosts are supporting units not a unit that you can make 20 of them and then sniping everything.
On February 21 2012 17:26 thanhbao86 wrote: I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
to be fair, you can't do anything else when you try to snipe brood/utlra, you need to click like crazy unless you use that scroll wheel trick.
I remember you can shift click a bunch on lords/ultras and that will do it.
I don't need to check liqui I do know what the AOE is, instead of theorycrafting random crap, just go and try it in game. The AOE is quite nice and 2 HSM will do a lot of damage, be it to the BL, or to the corruptors, or w/e happens to be there (banelings or infestor under them... <3).
Ravens won't be an insta-win units, 2 AOE won't rape his whole army, and it's just fine. They are still a great asset versus BL especially because BL are so slow. And they are also great with collateral damage due to Zerg swarmy nature. Exercise nuance, and less theorycraft-whinning, please.
On February 21 2012 18:01 thanhbao86 wrote:
I remember you can shift click a bunch on lords/ultras and that will do it.
Nobody is contesting the official reason of the nerf. It's just the actual nerf seems way overkill to just fix the Zerg problem. Sniping scvs, marines, banelings, zealots, was more a fun/cute move than anything. Nobody complained about it, why would they suddenly remove it?
Someone should link to thorzain's reaction of this (if any reaction has been published) ^_^;: This nerf doesn't seem too hard..; I mean maybe it's some kind of response to people hotkeying their mouse wheel to snipe (there is a thread on this site about how to do this, but i do not have the link)- making ghosts very very cost effective against EVERYTHING that is snipeable... Maybe they should also consider increasing the speed of seeker missles or something to compensate for this. The big problem of course is of course, how a lot of terrans will manage against mass broods/infestor/corrupter/x army since vikings without insanely good control (and even then...) will just get serial fungled and therefore rendered completely cost-inefficient. I hope they buff seeker!_!
On February 22 2012 00:52 GhostfaceKillah wrote: terran needs to stop crying end of story
As long as I don't hear bitching and moaning from zergs when they get all ined 9/10 games (the 1/10 that wasn't all in was a disconnect) I'm ok with it. Terran is good early-mid game and shit in the late game vs. P and now Z. Just don't be shocked about the increase of all ins both on ladder and in tournaments.
On February 21 2012 17:26 thanhbao86 wrote: I understand why OP says this nerf is too extreme. but then you propose to put the base damage to 50 (while in fact 45 works well right now). You lose your credibility right there. Simply put, as long as you talk about balance to benefit your own race then its hard to take it seriously. Tbh, the whole OP talks on terran point of view and I did not see much from the zerg at all. While in reality this patch is to solve the problem for zerg. Many posts in this thread also talks like that.
Why dont you guys think for zerg for once. I have seen 20 ghosts completely destroy 10 broodlords, or 7-8 ultras thats just ridiculous. Worse, the ghosts are still alive while waves of broodlords or ultralisks keep dying. I expect at least some ghosts must die in that battle. Otherwise, ghost + tanks + marines + some vikings are too strong late game TVZ. Remember that late game army size of terran is more than zerg since they can sacrifices their SCVs. Zerg still has to maintain around 60 drones. Lords/ultras are zergs tier 3, their only choices to go late game, and terran can just make ghosts and completely destroy both. That again is ridiculous. I expect ghosts alone cant kill them all now so Terran will have to bring in BCs/vikings or marauders/tanks in order to kill lords/ultras which to me makes perfect sense ( or at least the games will be more fun to watch). You can't just sit make one units and you know it will counter all the options the zergs can throw at you.
People talk about fun factor also. I am sorry but sometimes you can't get them all.
I am not saying this patch is good, but saying this is bad because it does not look good for my own race is plain stupid. Its like hearing Idra complains about why hydra + roaches does not work in ZvP. Start making Infestors !!!.
Did you even read the OP? Qxc clearly states that the nerf should be a reduction in damage to massive units, not an overall damage nerf. The effect against BL and ultras would be exactly the same as what Blizzard intends to do. The reason Qxc's idea is better is that snipe won't be made completely useless against non-psionic units.
Saying something is completely useless is in fact really extreme too. Why should ghosts be good against every bio units with its sniping ability? Last time i remember ghosts are supporting units not a unit that you can make 20 of them and then sniping everything.
Infestors are supporting units too. It's not uncommon to see 10+ of them in all matchups.
I made an account just to post on this topic. I've been playing sc2 since the release (didn't play beta), I agree on all the orig. poster's points except I don't think that they should buff to 50 and the reduction should be around 25-30. - Question about the current situation. Does this mean they currently do 50 damage to Archons? If so, terran just became a little stronger vs anything good late game from the protoss gateways.
On February 22 2012 05:10 Rhaegar1121 wrote: I made an account just to post on this topic. I've been playing sc2 since the release (didn't play beta), I agree on all the orig. poster's points except I don't think that they should buff to 50 and the reduction should be around 25-30. - Question about the current situation. Does this mean they currently do 50 damage to Archons? If so, terran just became a little stronger vs anything good late game from the protoss gateways.
Archons can't be sniped... They aren't biological.
On February 21 2012 23:10 MyTHicaL wrote: Someone should link to thorzain's reaction of this (if any reaction has been published) ^_^;: This nerf doesn't seem too hard..; I mean maybe it's some kind of response to people hotkeying their mouse wheel to snipe (there is a thread on this site about how to do this, but i do not have the link)- making ghosts very very cost effective against EVERYTHING that is snipeable... Maybe they should also consider increasing the speed of seeker missles or something to compensate for this. The big problem of course is of course, how a lot of terrans will manage against mass broods/infestor/corrupter/x army since vikings without insanely good control (and even then...) will just get serial fungled and therefore rendered completely cost-inefficient. I hope they buff seeker!_!
ThorZain had posted a short paragrpah on his opinion within 10 pages of the official thread going up on the patch notes.
In essence he was extremely sad about the massive change since ghosts are still being explored as DPS units (such as TvT ghost rushes, snipe drops, and nuke harassments and similar roles in zealot archon TvP to prevent storming and add DPS). IIRC His stance was to buff damage slightly but increase cooldown to 2-3 seconds so that 6 ghosts can't wipe 200 energy off their bars and instantly kill 20-30 supply for free, but give SOME reaction time to getting stuff sniped and allow Ghosts to do relatively good DPS in full engage if no spellcasters need to be EMPd.
I don't need to check liqui I do know what the AOE is, instead of theorycrafting random crap, just go and try it in game. The AOE is quite nice and 2 HSM will do a lot of damage, be it to the BL, or to the corruptors, or w/e happens to be there (banelings or infestor under them... <3).
Ravens won't be an insta-win units, 2 AOE won't rape his whole army, and it's just fine. They are still a great asset versus BL especially because BL are so slow. And they are also great with collateral damage due to Zerg swarmy nature. Exercise nuance, and less theorycraft-whinning, please.
I remember you can shift click a bunch on lords/ultras and that will do it.
Nobody is contesting the official reason of the nerf. It's just the actual nerf seems way overkill to just fix the Zerg problem. Sniping scvs, marines, banelings, zealots, was more a fun/cute move than anything. Nobody complained about it, why would they suddenly remove it?
This I understand perfectly. The problem I have is that you guys have not tried it. The patch is not even out and a lot of people think they can foresee the situation already. Qxc foremost as a pro need to take even extra caution on this before saying things like this as his opinions have really large effect on amateurs. I am not saying this for Terran users only. Its the same freaking reactions every nerf patch comes out (same for zerg, toss). And look everything is still ok right now. But every single patch, I hear people saying the patch will break the game (surprisingly a lot of pros involved). So far not so many patches have that big of a impact.
Anyone remember BlizzCon GrandFinal 2011 between mvp and nestea. How many Broodlords did nestea have in the end? like 26-27? and mvp just sniped them all with 18-19 ghosts. Ghost deserves a nerf
On February 22 2012 10:23 DoNuTs84 wrote: Anyone remember BlizzCon GrandFinal 2011 between mvp and nestea. How many Broodlords did nestea have in the end? like 26-27? and mvp just sniped them all with 18-19 ghosts. Ghost deserves a nerf
And if you watched that replay closely you would notice there was nothing supporting the brood lords.
On February 22 2012 08:05 thanhbao86 wrote: This I understand perfectly. The problem I have is that you guys have not tried it. The patch is not even out and a lot of people think they can foresee the situation already. Qxc foremost as a pro need to take even extra caution on this before saying things like this as his opinions have really large effect on amateurs. I am not saying this for Terran users only. Its the same freaking reactions every nerf patch comes out (same for zerg, toss). And look everything is still ok right now. But every single patch, I hear people saying the patch will break the game (surprisingly a lot of pros involved). So far not so many patches have that big of a impact.
There is nothing to try out :-(
We know snipe will no longer OS marines, scvs, drones, banelings, but basically do the same damage to them as Ghost regular attack. Just seems like a non-asked, non-needed nerf, and a bit of a "dumbing down the game" change -> less micro, more A moves (but we're not playing Protoss, we chose Terran /grin). In that regard, I still don't understand the patch.
Qxc is getting a spotlight, but If you read general Terran players reactions when patch was announced, here, or in B.net forums, you'll see that among a lot of craps, many a people just proposed the exact same thing, wondering why they didn't simply make snipe less effective vs massive, instead of modifying the current potency of the Ghost in every matchups, because it's only common sense.
The change just feels so wrong. And it's not a small adjustment either, it's a freaking 50% cut (!).
As far as late game Z situation goes, I don't think any pro complained about it.
I agree with you over the bitching situation, its a common issue in the game world, many young people I suppose, and Internet anonimacy (is that a word?). Reading this very thread can be exhausting from a rational point of view. At last, I feel that many people that complains* are not even playing, just watching highest level of play and making assumptions from there (omg *he* mainly used snipe in late TvZ, so if they nerf it, well, *he* will necessarily lose, right?!).
Edit : * or bashes, like this one ->
On February 22 2012 10:23 DoNuTs84 wrote: Anyone remember BlizzCon GrandFinal 2011 between mvp and nestea. How many Broodlords did nestea have in the end? like 26-27? and mvp just sniped them all with 18-19 ghosts. Ghost deserves a nerf
i guess our opinions don't matter. the patch is live without a PTR and just before a major Tournament. How can this be? If the pros can't get the attention of blizzard then my little emai to blizzard fowarding this link surely didn't .
I think this nerf is good, Ghosts weren't meant to be great versus EVERY unit in the game. Not to mention snipe isn't the only ability they have.
Edit: Quite the contrary to what qxc said I think this nerf will actually promote more interesting play as you wont see every Terran go mass ghosts all the time in the late game. They will have to adapt to what tech their opponent is going and use different interesting builds instead of mmmvg all the time.
I would be greatly upset if Ghosts became weak vs everything else in the game. For god's sake they require a Ghost Academy, Tech lab, most likely Moebius reactor before cloak and decent micro and multi tasking in order to pick off key units.
Your should be able to 1 shot bainlings and scare of flocks of muta with decents snipes. Good ghost control should be feared and respected, not made reduntant and useless in order to try and make a balance change for a specific scenario (Ghost vs Tier 3 Zerg)
Does this really belong in the blog section though? This seems to be something a lot of people want to bring attention to. And we especially want Blizzard to hear about this, right? Maybe it would be better to move this thread to the SC2 General forum? I know I don't always keep up with the blog section anyway...
I had the same idea when I first saw the patch changes, but I didnt feel like taking the time to write a blog about it. Blizzard stated their reasons for the change being "Too much use against T3 Zerg", well why not make a patch that deals with THAT problem instead of ruining the whole ghost...
Great job QXC, terran needs a voice when we're getting stomped on as hard as we are.
qxc gots the knowledge the blizzard guys needed. They stated what they wanted to do and everyone was ok with it. Now they look as if they wanted to make the change "easy" and totally missed their point...
Blizzard could not use this idea, or any other one suggested by the players for it would be the start of a pr nightmare. Any time a patch would come out, players would be able to challenge them and use the "Snipe nerf" as a reference. Now changes in the past have been influenced by pros, but the plain fact is that those pros were not terran. I know this sounds horrible, but you have to realise that this game represents a MASSIVE investment for Blizzard, one that they are fighting very hard to protect the future of, very simply demonstrated in the massive amount of financial expenditure on advertisements of the 2 expansions, compared to the investment in the current game. And they could be using this as a way to squelch the terran op hatred that has haunted this game since release. This terran stigma NEEDS to be taken into account, showcased in part by the ridiculous " marine op, stop complaining" posts in this thread. It is this hostile view towards terrans, seen in almost every outlet of this sport, from casters to this very forum. To prove my theory go ask any one who knows OF starcraft 2 but does not play, I bet at least 6/10 will identify the terran "problem" without knowing anything about the history.
did the Ghost and mule need to be nerfed? I dont know I am not a pro, but I do know good business, and this patch will secure a larger number of players for HOTS then a even slightly pro terran change would..
edit-by pro terran change I mean a re-vamp of the proposed Ghost nerf, not a pro-terran patch. Also think of the timing of this patch and others, they do not care about the proplayers, and possible trying to rig the MLG finals by giving zergs and protosss a better chance against terrans. They are securing investments from the majority of players, ezpz. Also think about how it would look to the entire community if such a massive reduction was made to the original nerf on the account of players suggestions, the balance team would look incompetent.
On February 23 2012 07:23 Marcuz wrote: Blizzard could not use this idea, or any other one suggested by the players for it would be the start of a pr nightmare. Any time a patch would come out, players would be able to challenge them and use the "Snipe nerf" as a reference. Now changes in the past have been influenced by pros, but the plain fact is that those pros were not terran. I know this sounds horrible, but you have to realise that this game represents a MASSIVE investment for Blizzard, one that they are fighting very hard to protect the future of, very simply demonstrated in the massive amount of financial expenditure on advertisements of the 2 expansions, compared to the investment in the current game. And they could be using this as a way to squelch the terran op hatred that has haunted this game since release. This terran stigma NEEDS to be taken into account, showcased in part by the ridiculous " marine op, stop complaining" posts in this thread. It is this hostile view towards terrans, seen in almost every outlet of this sport, from casters to this very forum. To prove my theory go ask any one who knows OF starcraft 2 but does not play, I bet at least 6/10 will identify the terran "problem" without knowing anything about the history.
did the Ghost and mule need to be nerfed? I dont know I am not a pro, but I do know good business, and this patch will secure a larger number of players for HOTS then a even slightly pro terran change would..
edit-by pro terran change I mean a re-vamp of the proposed Ghost nerf, not a pro-terran patch. Also think of the timing of this patch and others, they do not care about the proplayers, they are securing investments from the bronze-diamond players, ezpz
I would rather say they don't know what they are doing.
I find qxc's arguments unconvincing. The ghost was and is the only grounded spell caster that can attack (i.e. can hurt the enemy without spells). Qxc says the nerf makes the ghost a specified anti-spell caster unit, but doesn't actually make the argument, just says it as fact. "All of a sudden ghost aren't cost efficient against anything other than casters." Cool that you think that, now back it up with something, anything. 25 is a significant hit to most troops. Ghost can attack, cloak, and only cost 100 gas. I don't think units are supposed to be cost efficient against everything, or even almost everything. A huge obstacle blocking qxc's logic, IMO, is the term "cost efficient." He likes his ghosts to be better-than-cost-efficient against everything other than ultras and blords.
On February 23 2012 09:59 mr.reee wrote: I find qxc's arguments unconvincing. The ghost was and is the only grounded spell caster that can attack (i.e. can hurt the enemy without spells). Qxc says the nerf makes the ghost a specified anti-spell caster unit, but doesn't actually make the argument, just says it as fact. "All of a sudden ghost aren't cost efficient against anything other than casters." Cool that you think that, now back it up with something, anything. 25 is a significant hit to most troops. Ghost can attack, cloak, and only cost 100 gas. I don't think units are supposed to be cost efficient against everything, or even almost everything. A huge obstacle blocking qxc's logic, IMO, is the term "cost efficient." He likes his ghosts to be better-than-cost-efficient against everything other than ultras and blords.
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
I agree with qxc.. i mean really what the freaking heck are u gonna do with ghosts now that is worth anything.. I mean really? This patch is really stupid blizzard u have really done it this time..
On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote: Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
The bitterness of past tense I feel the same way. I seriously wanted to experiment more with the ghost in TvT, as I had done very little, plus at diamond level changing things up is still pretty sloppy sometimes, but anyways, there's really no point now. Sure, ghosts will appear in late game situations as they sometimes do, but I feel something very beautiful was removed from the game. Plus any bonus you can get from them vs zealots is totally gone, unless you count +3 damage from snipe's 25 damage vs +26-4=22 damage from 3/3 vs 3/3. So meh.
They can always change it to 50(25massive) in the future, here's hoping -_-
Even though I disagree with a strong nerf to massive, they should have at least done something similar to what qxc suggested or just cap their energy at 75 or 100 or whatever.
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.[/QUOTE]
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really?
On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote: Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
So was the Infestor nerf. You'll get over it, it gets easier....I promise. *hug*
On February 23 2012 10:51 qxc wrote: Not even a comment from Blizzard regarding all the posts and discussions in the community. The ghost nerf was done wrong.
So was the Infestor nerf. You'll get over it, it gets easier....I promise. *hug*
I thought it was a buff...wasn't it less duration but more damage? Also, they nerfed fungal to not hit air but reversed that when similar outcry took place. The only nerf I can think of is neural parasite. Even if I'm remembering incorrectly at least the infestor has 2 useful spells still, the ghost now has one (which was recently nerfed as well) although the ghost did get a small cost decrease.
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really? [/QUOTE]
The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units.
You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive].
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really?
The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units.
You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive].[/QUOTE]
how is snipe useless? Ghosts are just as effective against protoss as they used to be... and against infestor play. So they were weakened in one MU. I feel for the T players who have to deal with it. I really do. However ghosts in general are still a good unit. And as for the 100 gas... you need to spend gas on tech.. I'm sorry? lol ghosts are still able to emp, use nukes for positional control and snipe ht's/infestors at long range. I think it's better to just get used to these changes and move on.
I'm not sure you read his post closely enough, or have as much familiarity actually utilizing ghosts in game. By "cost-efficient," he doesn't mean "super-effective" - he's making a comment on whether it's actually worth using a ghost to accomplish these tasks. The fact that it takes two snipes to kill a baneling or a marine obviously is obviously not worth the effort to micro and employ, let alone spend that money on for a ghost. Snipe is not just some a-move: it requires a lot of targeting and control, especially in combination with the rest of a Terran army in the presumably late-game situation that they find themselves in, stimming, splitting, emp-ing, and targeting.
"25 is a significant hit to most troops" - not regular attacks out dps that with 1/20th of the control necessary. They can attack but they have a poor dps, cloak is only a supplement for some other function, and "only" 100 gas - lmao.
Only 100 gas, as in cheaper than other spell casters whom can neiter attack not cloak. lmao? really?
The problem with newer posters is that they don't really read things carefully. I would gladly trade the attack ability and cloak for fungal/storm which have far greater dps, cloak, as I already mentioned and you completely failed to read, is only a supplement to other abilities (like snipe, which is now useless, so by extension cloak is much more useless). The attack, again, is pointless, because its dps is piss-poor compared to most other units.
You also know things are bad when even IdrA is saying that the nerf is bad [see his recent interview that also discussed his games against aLive].
how is snipe useless? Ghosts are just as effective against protoss as they used to be... and against infestor play. So they were weakened in one MU. I feel for the T players who have to deal with it. I really do. However ghosts in general are still a good unit. And as for the 100 gas... you need to spend gas on tech.. I'm sorry? lol ghosts are still able to emp, use nukes for positional control and snipe ht's/infestors at long range. I think it's better to just get used to these changes and move on.
In the context of the post, snipe is functionally useless against any non-caster unit. My argument is not that "ghosts can't do anything," but that it's not unreasonable for ghosts to have a role outside of merely countering spellcasters [but under Blizzard logic, units apparently all have to fit into a very specialized role, which is really bad design as many other lengthy OPs have explained]. They were not merely weakened in one role [against bl/ultras], but weakened against marines, banelings, and zealots, which are all creative and potentially useful roles of ghosts.
On February 23 2012 07:23 Marcuz wrote: Blizzard could not use this idea, or any other one suggested by the players for it would be the start of a pr nightmare. Any time a patch would come out, players would be able to challenge them and use the "Snipe nerf" as a reference. Now changes in the past have been influenced by pros, but the plain fact is that those pros were not terran. I know this sounds horrible, but you have to realise that this game represents a MASSIVE investment for Blizzard, one that they are fighting very hard to protect the future of, very simply demonstrated in the massive amount of financial expenditure on advertisements of the 2 expansions, compared to the investment in the current game. And they could be using this as a way to squelch the terran op hatred that has haunted this game since release. This terran stigma NEEDS to be taken into account, showcased in part by the ridiculous " marine op, stop complaining" posts in this thread. It is this hostile view towards terrans, seen in almost every outlet of this sport, from casters to this very forum. To prove my theory go ask any one who knows OF starcraft 2 but does not play, I bet at least 6/10 will identify the terran "problem" without knowing anything about the history.
did the Ghost and mule need to be nerfed? I dont know I am not a pro, but I do know good business, and this patch will secure a larger number of players for HOTS then a even slightly pro terran change would..
edit-by pro terran change I mean a re-vamp of the proposed Ghost nerf, not a pro-terran patch. Also think of the timing of this patch and others, they do not care about the proplayers, and possible trying to rig the MLG finals by giving zergs and protosss a better chance against terrans. They are securing investments from the majority of players, ezpz. Also think about how it would look to the entire community if such a massive reduction was made to the original nerf on the account of players suggestions, the balance team would look incompetent.
They did cave in for the zergs. When the infestor was getting nerfed zergs QQed like they had all be turned into 13yr old spoiled brats & got Blizz to change the NP from ''not being able to target massive'' to just a small range nerf.
I do agree they shouldn't base their decisions on what the idiots (like you and me) on B.net forums, TL, & reddit say. Maybe listen to the pros & not just the zerg loud mouths that always QQ (Idra). But they do listen, at least to the majority ( & that's zerg ). Most of the players from gold & up are zerg players. Below that it's terrans who have the majority, but at that level, they aren't interested in e-sports & rarely care about the intricacies of the game & are just playing it really casually.
Sucks that terran have the weakest psi unit. Snipe that no longer works well on zerg units & emp that is only good vs toss, worthless vs terran. Compare that to infestors with fungal & NP & IT which are SO STRONG vs all races (you see them in ALL matchups) or high templars with feedback (used in all matchups) & more importantly,storm (also used in all matchups). Not to mention archons.
I guess Blizz feels that terran has enough powerful ''base'' units (it's hard to disagree with this & not sound like a bronze noob or an incredibly biased terran) & don't need another one.
really? all these comments about terran are still OP its ok" thats some bull right there. and some other idiot posted "Stop crying same thing happened to HT when we lost our +25 energy up"......... this is completly diferent dipstick... That was nered because players could WARP in HT anywhere basically and just start storming which was completly OP. There was no need for such a dramatic nerf for terrans considering we barely have any good units this game, although i love it, sucks compared to broodwar.. i mean our t3 SUCKS.. i mean really...
I basically agree with all qxc said but he missed one thing: If ghosts did 50 damage to non-massive biological units it would be possible to 3-shot zealots. I would suggest 25, +25 vs psionic, +20 vs non massive
They did cave in for the zergs. When the infestor was getting nerfed zergs QQed like they had all be turned into 13yr old spoiled brats & got Blizz to change the NP from ''not being able to target massive'' to just a small range nerf.
Really? They buffed fungal once (shorter duration but more dmg) because it was really bad, then nerfed it (less dmg), then nerfed NP with "a small range nerf" that made NP go unused in pro play to this day. Yes, they sure give those zergs everything they ask for..
On February 24 2012 22:34 TotalNightmare wrote: I basically agree with all qxc said but he missed one thing: If ghosts did 50 damage to non-massive biological units it would be possible to 3-shot zealots. I would suggest 25, +25 vs psionic, +20 vs non massive
A snipe that does 70 against casters.. a little OP don't you think?
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
Please qxc, after your really good explanation this cry isnt necessary... it sounds so pedantic, man...
They did cave in for the zergs. When the infestor was getting nerfed zergs QQed like they had all be turned into 13yr old spoiled brats & got Blizz to change the NP from ''not being able to target massive'' to just a small range nerf.
Really? They buffed fungal once (shorter duration but more dmg) because it was really bad, then nerfed it (less dmg), then nerfed NP with "a small range nerf" that made NP go unused in pro play to this day. Yes, they sure give those zergs everything they ask for..
On February 24 2012 22:34 TotalNightmare wrote: I basically agree with all qxc said but he missed one thing: If ghosts did 50 damage to non-massive biological units it would be possible to 3-shot zealots. I would suggest 25, +25 vs psionic, +20 vs non massive
A snipe that does 70 against casters.. a little OP don't you think?
I bet he meant +25 vs psionic OR +20 vs non massive, not + 25 and +20 against casters. Come on lol.
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
Please qxc, after your really good explanation this cry isnt necessary... it sounds so pedantic, man...
How about having less possibilities for players and less things to see for spectators? Everything that is really cool in this game gets nerfed (arguably many of those nerfs are justified but still). I would really love to see something relying on more than A-move and blizzard devs just took one of those things out.
On February 26 2012 00:53 Strela wrote: polt shows how its done! you can beat zerg without ghost still you just need some skill this time!
Ofcourse you can win without ghosts. You just either kill them before they get to hive, or you hurt his eco so much they can't remax. Also...using ghosts is much harder then the alternative, not using ghosts and making a million vikings.
On February 26 2012 00:53 Strela wrote: polt shows how its done! you can beat zerg without ghost still you just need some skill this time!
You only have to playing a shit Zerg who doesn't know how to make good game decisions or split his army! I see better decision making at Diamond level play. I'm sure that Zerg has better mechanics but his decision making was so bad I think I could have made better ones back in beta.
On February 19 2012 00:24 IMsomnu wrote: Any terran nerf is well received.
Why do you people like you 1) Post in a thread like this with a non-sequiter, content-less, glib post that shows you didn't actually read the OP? 2) Survive on TL past your 1st post? Your first 7, and only, posts have been pointless, one-line trolls. Are the mods asleep?
If threads should only have positive criticism and one sided views, I'm sorry my friend but you are far too young come back in a few years when you understand how the world works better .
On February 19 2012 00:24 IMsomnu wrote: Any terran nerf is well received.
Why do you people like you 1) Post in a thread like this with a non-sequiter, content-less, glib post that shows you didn't actually read the OP? 2) Survive on TL past your 1st post? Your first 7, and only, posts have been pointless, one-line trolls. Are the mods asleep?
If threads should only have positive criticism and one sided views, I'm sorry my friend but you are far too young come back in a few years when you understand how the world works better .
You are still an asshole for completely disregarding what qxc wrote, you didn't address the OP in any way.
On February 27 2012 10:48 BigDaddy wrote: Ok so the ghost nerf is in...and the two major tournaments held after its release(MLG winter arena and Asus ROG)...both are won by Terrans.
Is everyone done crying over this "nerf" now?
And here we get another one that didn't bother to read the OP. Did you? Qxc isn't scared of brood lords and ultras, he wants more strategies to be kept in the game. Read the fucking original post.
On February 27 2012 10:48 BigDaddy wrote: Ok so the ghost nerf is in...and the two major tournaments held after its release(MLG winter arena and Asus ROG)...both are won by Terrans.
Is everyone done crying over this "nerf" now?
And here we get another one that didn't bother to read the OP. Did you? Qxc isn't scared of brood lords and ultras, he wants more strategies to be kept in the game. Read the fucking original post.
Sorry I was replying more to the dozens of others who were worried this would doom Terran vs T3 Zerg. This was kind of obvious when I said "Is everyone done...".
Progamers play this game for a living. We practice everyday perfecting and refining strategies - strategies which rely on the current balance. Every unnecessary change makes it harder for us to perfect the strategies we practice so frequently.
Please qxc, after your really good explanation this cry isnt necessary... it sounds so pedantic, man...
How about having less possibilities for players and less things to see for spectators? Everything that is really cool in this game gets nerfed (arguably many of those nerfs are justified but still). I would really love to see something relying on more than A-move and blizzard devs just took one of those things out.
You really think the game its getting worse? Take a look to the matches of the first GSL on September 2010. The game is better day by day.
A vod is worth 10000 words mate. Well done, thanks for showing us what you meant. This video did not get nearly enough attention in this thread, it's the best TvT I've seen this year.
In the context of the post, snipe is functionally useless against any non-caster unit. My argument is not that "ghosts can't do anything," but that it's not unreasonable for ghosts to have a role outside of merely countering spellcasters [but under Blizzard logic, units apparently all have to fit into a very specialized role, which is really bad design as many other lengthy OPs have explained]. They were not merely weakened in one role [against bl/ultras], but weakened against marines, banelings, and zealots, which are all creative and potentially useful roles of ghosts.[/QUOTE]
You speak in exaggerations and without support or logic to your argument. The ghost is the spellcaster with the least specialized role, as he can attack, snipe, emp, and nuke. He does 10 damage per attack, 20 against light units. He is also tiny, making it hard to target him. So he can engage in a fight (range 6), snipe from long range (range 10), decimate shields, drain spell energy, force positional changes (nukes), can reveal cloaked units, can cloak himeslf, AND has the best unit voice in the game (by a mile). And I will re-iterate that he only costs 100 gas.
A vod is worth 10000 words mate. Well done, thanks for showing us what you meant. This video did not get nearly enough attention in this thread, it's the best TvT I've seen this year.
R I P , the Ghost.
WHAT THE FUCK?
That was amazing to watch. Well, great job blizzard for making this game more stupid and bland.
A vod is worth 10000 words mate. Well done, thanks for showing us what you meant. This video did not get nearly enough attention in this thread, it's the best TvT I've seen this year.
R I P , the Ghost.
That's the best TvT of the year?
Damn, I didn't miss much then...
I mean, yah, it's cool that snipe was used, but it was mostly 2 armies amoving into each other over and over. Bio fights are so ridiculously stupid and unskilled.
On June 03 2012 13:04 Natespank wrote: Blizzard's designers are morons compared to how they used to be 10 years ago. What's there to do about it?
You really bumped this thread to make a statement like this?
I'm glad this thread got bumped. In my opinion, this thread should stay bumped until Blizzard decides to listen to the people who buy their games. Qxc makes an intelligent, well-articulated argument for the Ghost's snipe ability.
On June 03 2012 13:04 Natespank wrote: Blizzard's designers are morons compared to how they used to be 10 years ago. What's there to do about it?
You really bumped this thread to make a statement like this?
I'm glad this thread got bumped. In my opinion, this thread should stay bumped until Blizzard decides to listen to the people who buy their games. Qxc makes an intelligent, well-articulated argument for the Ghost's snipe ability.
In a battle between a Terran and a Zerg army which has Broods...didnt the Zerg fuck up in the first place when he allows the Ghosts to close his Broodlords to snipe them (Broods range 11, Ghost range 6)? Broods have so much stopping power and imho u kinda lost the battle in the first place if u cant secure ur broods from being sniped. A maxed out Brood/Infestor army now seems pretty imba.
With the Ghost Terran had a versatile weapon vs. fast Zerg T3 tech switches. Now, its possible that u shredder an Ultra army (in case u have bigger army value or better micro, lets just say we beat the ultras cauz we were prepared and had a ton of Marauders), move forward to Zergs base and face broods who kill all ur army. Its hard to have an perfectly "balanced" army that can handle a max out Ultra heavy Zerg and then one larva round later a maxed out Broodlord Zerg.
I dont wanna dig too deep into this. Im not a high level player.
What about a cooldown or reduce the max energy of the ghosts if it rly was op... which...I still doubt. would like to hear sth about that.
What we all know...Blizz took a lot of epicness out of late game TvZ. The ghost was wesome. Was he too awesome? Idk. But now hes useless and we dont even see Nukes anymore. No Epicness anymore. And thats sad.
On August 10 2012 08:10 DukeTheNuke wrote: How was the ghost OP in the first place?
In a battle between a Terran and a Zerg army which has Broods...didnt the Zerg fuck up in the first place when he allows the Ghosts to close his Broodlords to snipe them (Broods range 11, Ghost range 6)? Broods have so much stopping power and imho u kinda lost the battle in the first place if u cant secure ur broods from being sniped. A maxed out Brood/Infestor army now seems pretty imba.
With the Ghost Terran had a versatile weapon vs. fast Zerg T3 tech switches. Now, its possible that u shredder an Ultra army (in case u have bigger army value or better micro, lets just say we beat the ultras cauz we were prepared and had a ton of Marauders), move forward to Zergs base and face broods who kill all ur army. Its hard to have an perfectly "balanced" army that can handle a max out Ultra heavy Zerg and then one larva round later a maxed out Broodlord Zerg.
I dont wanna dig too deep into this. Im not a high level player.
What about a cooldown or reduce the max energy of the ghosts if it rly was op... which...I still doubt. would like to hear sth about that.
What we all know...Blizz took a lot of epicness out of late game TvZ. The ghost was wesome. Was he too awesome? Idk. But now hes useless and we dont even see Nukes anymore. No Epicness anymore. And thats sad.
Old post but no. Snipe had a long range and it countered everything zerg made except for zerglings. Like hardcore just watch youtube videos of it.