IPL4 was one of the largest tournaments we’ve seen in SC2 to date, and the largest outside of Korea. Going into the tournament there was a ton of hype around how awesome it was going to be and how it was the hardest tournament in the world. And indeed with the players that attended it probably was the hardest tournament to date. But when the tournament had come to its conclusion I couldn’t help but feel let down.
I’m sure a lot of you felt it too. Despite the enormously high skill level present in the tournament, the finals just didn’t live up to the hype. And it wasn’t because the games weren’t good enough, it’s because we just didn’t care about who was in the finals.
The final between Alive and Squirtle epitomises the ‘faceless Korean invasion’ phenomenon. Let me explain what I mean by ‘faceless Korean invasion’. In Korea there are a boatload of incredibly skilled progamers who have no reputation in the scene. This is because unless you are in Code S and placing highly on a regular basis (or a GSTL beast), you are an unknown in the scene. When these Koreans participate in foreign tournaments, and in particular IPL4 which facilitated the travel of a number of Koreans who would have otherwise not been there, they are able to illustrate that they are skill and generally knock out a ton of foreigners on the way to the group stage/championship bracket/whatever. This is hugely anticlimactic for the foreign audience (and probably the Korean one as well) as the lack of history surrounding these players just makes them... boring.
Moreover the fact that these ‘faceless Koreans’ have irregular attendance at foreign events and there is the expectation for them to do well simply because they are Korean actually amplifies the foreign audiences dissatisfaction with the tournament. This is because seeing their tournament favourites being knocked out by the ‘faceless Koreans’ instantly makes the tournament less interesting for them. Look at Sounds performance at HSC4 or squirtles run in IPL4; people could honestly care less than those players were in attendance let alone did well in the tournament. Once the favourites are gone, the tournament is boring.
“Oh, but Plexa! I’m a fan of Starcraft and so I really enjoy seeing high level games regardless of who the players are!!” Great! Good for you. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the majority of people who read this feel the same way (I’m with you guys, for the record). But the reality of the situation is that the casual fan of Starcraft isn’t like this. In fact, casual fans are the people who visit TL only when there is (major) a tournament on!! And unfortunately for us, without the support of the casual viewerbase the growth of SC is severely restricted.
So what do casuals want to see? Obviously their favourites winning everything (which as we know isn’t a reality that is going to happen anytime soon, and I’ll go into that in a moment). But they aren’t just limited to that, fortunately. Because the ‘faceless Koreans’ are essentially seen as the enemy any foreigner who does well against them will instantly become the topic of discussion of the community. For instance, the biggest story which came out of IPL wasn’t Alive winning, it wasn’t Nestea’s ballsy run – it was Scarlet making a deep run in the tournament – a previously unknown player; and a female player to boot. In fact we see this time and time again, like the performance of Gatored in IEM NYC where he beat DRG.
The fact is, the “West vs East” story (with the West winning) is a story the casual viewer longs to see. Most of them will tune into MLG this weekend with a hope/expectation that Huk is going to come out and do really well, if not, MarineKing (and DRG as a distant third). And watch this GSL become the most viewed GSL in god knows when because of Naniwa and Liquid, particularly if either party is in the finals. But as it stands, tournaments are becoming more and more Korean dominated and the chances of West vs East clash are rapidly diminishing. And with it, the interest of the casual viewerbase.
Indeed, in my opinion, one of the reasons that League of Legends is maintaining popularity (notice I said maintaining and not gaining) is because you can tune in and see your West vs East clash; and the West isn’t a complete pushover. In fact, LoL combines everything that the casual viewer wants to see. Big multigaming teams which have established a fan following through other games are well represented in LoL (i.e. fnatic, Dignitas, sk) which automatically means people have fan favourites to support. And those teams actually perform on a reliable basis and don’t lose to ‘faceless’ teams. Thus people have their interest in LoL maintained. I dare say the situation will be similar with DOTA.
So why is the foreign community putting up such a poor fight against Koreans at the moment? My theory is this: in the beginning of SC2’s lifespan a number of progamers established a well defined identity – moreso outside of Korea than in. Now as the game evolved many of the first generation Koreans couldn’t keep up with the ever increasing level of play, and we had a second generation of players come through (no thanks to the poor format of early GSLs). The Korean scene continues to weed out weak players through the new and brutal Code S format; this keeps the best at the top regardless of their fanbase.
Now let’s cross over to what happened outside of Korea. Once a number of personalities were established tournaments sought to milk them for all they were worth – in order to attract the highest number of viewers possible. This is particularly true in events which cost a lot to get to, as only people with financial backing are able to get to these events as others are unlikely to attend because they won’t likely see a return on their investment. As such the non-Korean scene has had a very stagnant set of players at the top which don’t necessarily represent those with the best abilities. To date, TSL3 has been the only true open tournament which showcased the best the non-Korean community had to offer (and indeed, Thorzain was born).
It is very difficult for new players to break into the scene as the ‘faceless Korean’ invasion into foreign tournaments creates an enormous barrier to entry for them. Even if they enter, it is highly likely they won’t make it far because they will run into a Korean and lose. As such, the ‘second generation’ of foreign progamers never came about and all the fame, glory and money is tied up with the first generation. Indeed, some of these first generation pros are no longer remotely good at this game. Use your imagination as to whom I’m talking about. So as the 'faceless Koreans' are proving to be a barrier to entry for the second generation of foreign progamers, and thus stunting the growth of SC2, you could actually say that Koreans are killing esports.
Now I’m not someone who believes that foreigners by default are worse than Koreans – despite what they latest tournament results may tell you. I actually believe that the talent is out there in the ladders, but isn’t showing its face in tournaments because of the reasons I’ve stated. As long as the money is tied up in hopeless first generation progamers foreigners will always appear to be inferior to Koreans. This puts tournaments in a weird spot as they need to find a sweet spot between inviting enough Koreans to make their tournament legitimate, but still having enough chances for foreigners to make a splash (many of which are second rate).
Why there is such a lack of openness in the foreign scene (in comparison to Korea) baffles me. When Thorzain broke out onto the scene he trashed some seriously skilled Koreans along the way. Illusion is silently making his mark on the scene through solid play. Scarlet certainly has made a hugeee splash.
Given the huge amount of success these breakout players have had, and the fact that it doesn’t look like the current pool of ‘competitive’ foreigners will be beating Koreans any time in the near future, why aren’t tournaments investing in more open qualifiers? The talent is out there, as Scarlet illustrates, all that is required is for some tournament to get the balls to start offering a (large) number of free trips to their tournament through a set of open qualifiers with participation limited to non-Koreans. Koreans are only killing ESPORTS because we are letting them, because we having focused too much on making Starcraft 2 an ESPORT before we had the suitable skill level to do so.
Is this a huge risk? Sure. But it’s this kind of move that needs to be undertaken if the foreign scene is to revitalise itself and become more attractive to your average joe.
That, or TLO winning MLG.
EDIT: Will the Blizzard World Champs change anything? Maybe. But as with all Blizzard events I'll wait until it is over before I pass judgement, wouldn't want it to turn out like WCG now would we?
EDIT: IEM does a reasonable job of doing this btw, that is why players like gatored, illusion, phoenix etc have all been able to break into the scene in a respectable way. The issue with IEM is the limited number of seeds available and the unfortunate timing of many of their events. These are completely understandable limitations, by the way.
DISCLAIMER: These are my own thoughts and so not reflect the position of TeamLiquid.net!
NOTE: There are a handful of Koreans with personalities who prove to be big draws - in particular Marineking, MC, Nestea, MVP, Boxer, Nada, Puma and Hero. But on the whole the rest of the Korean scene is severely lacking in the PR department which means people don't get excited about them. Despite the fact that they are legitimately good players.
NOTE2: There are a handful of foreigners who rightfully deserve the money, fame and spotlight. In particular EG.Huk, Quantic.Naniwa and Mill.Stephano deserve all the praise and more that they receive for their runs in various tournaments.
I cared. The wife and I were pulling for squirtle bigtime. Broke my heart to see him run out of has when he was playing so well. Parting thing for gstl was a shame. Really ruined a lot of the tourney for me. We like the Koreans. Its cute how they constantly groom themselves.
When I went to MLG anaheim and huk was the last foreigner knocked out of the tournament, things got a lot quieter and less exciting. Fortunately there were a lot of well known koreans like boxer and drg, but otherwise, a lot of people want to see their favorites doing well.
On April 21 2012 03:08 mewo wrote: I cared. The wife and I were pulling for squirtle bigtime. Broke my heart to see him run out of has when he was playing so well. Parting thing for gstl was a shame. Really ruined a lot of the tourney for me. We like the Koreans. Its cute how they constantly groom themselves.
That's the problem with speaking in generalities, they are exactly that - generalities.
Oh and a tldr; for those who can't be bothered reading it. I think there is a legitimate need for tournaments to start assisting the best foreign players to tournaments (by best I mean those who are able to illustrate it in some kind of qualifier setting) so that we are always sending the best foreigners to every event and not those who live near by or have the support/backing to make it to every event.
On April 21 2012 03:08 mewo wrote: I cared. The wife and I were pulling for squirtle bigtime. Broke my heart to see him run out of has when he was playing so well. Parting thing for gstl was a shame. Really ruined a lot of the tourney for me. We like the Koreans. Its cute how they constantly groom themselves.
That's the problem with speaking in generalities, they are exactly that - generalities.
Oh and a tldr; for those who can't be bothered reading it. I think there is a legitimate need for tournaments to start assisting the best foreign players to tournaments (by best I mean those who are able to illustrate it in some kind of qualifier setting) so that we are always sending the best foreigners to every event and not those who live near by or have the support/backing to make it to every event.
Maybe I can say more. I cared because I was watching some tense and interesting starcraft. Because of that, I want tournament entry to be as merit based as possible.
On April 21 2012 03:08 mewo wrote: I cared. The wife and I were pulling for squirtle bigtime. Broke my heart to see him run out of has when he was playing so well. Parting thing for gstl was a shame. Really ruined a lot of the tourney for me. We like the Koreans. Its cute how they constantly groom themselves.
That's the problem with speaking in generalities, they are exactly that - generalities.
Oh and a tldr; for those who can't be bothered reading it. I think there is a legitimate need for tournaments to start assisting the best foreign players to tournaments (by best I mean those who are able to illustrate it in some kind of qualifier setting) so that we are always sending the best foreigners to every event and not those who live near by or have the support/backing to make it to every event.
Maybe I can say more. I cared because I was watching some tense and interesting starcraft. Because of that, I want tournament entry to be as merit based as possible.
Good point, but a good question to ask is whether or not IPL4 was as merit based as possible (or any tournament for that matter) when the 'qualifiers' for the 'main tournament' are held on site limiting the access to those who have the financial backing to attend?
Alot of people are going to take different things from this post - for me, it's a good reasoning on why the skillgap between koreans and foreigners are increasing.
I leave this point - imagine if FruitDealer, Tester, Cliiiiiidddddeee and Ensnare were still playing - instead of talking about the gulf between koreans and foreigners, we would instead be talking about how foreigners have closed the skill gap.
completely agree, how can I not? It is, of course, easier said than done. Like you said, big tournaments need to have long qualification process, where just about anyone can take part of similar to TSL3 and not limit it to an invite of top 32 names or something. This is of course much more work for the people organising it, and keeping it interesting is harder. However, it truly lets us bring out a whole new level of talent out of the foreign community and help the foreign community gain way more skill. Of course, it's 'easier' to just invite some random top players, get 20-30k stream viewers and conclude that we had gg's. At the end of the day, nobody got better and no new talent emerged.
I very much agree, whenever a "faceless korean" wins a tournament its cool because of the high skilled involved and all but you have no connection to them like you do with a foreign player such a HuK.
They don't speak our language and they're not involved in our community like the "foreign" players are so its alot harder to get cheer for something that you just don't anything about other than whats in the TLPD.
On April 21 2012 03:23 Waxangel wrote: It didn't even occur to me that I could scroll down and one-star without reading, thanks for reminding me so courteously on the first line ^_^
Plexa hits the nail on the head. Development of a foreign scene exclusively is not a bad thing. Think of it as timbering out old growth so that the new growth doesn't get choked out.
On April 21 2012 03:08 mewo wrote: I cared. The wife and I were pulling for squirtle bigtime. Broke my heart to see him run out of has when he was playing so well. Parting thing for gstl was a shame. Really ruined a lot of the tourney for me. We like the Koreans. Its cute how they constantly groom themselves.
That's the problem with speaking in generalities, they are exactly that - generalities.
Oh and a tldr; for those who can't be bothered reading it. I think there is a legitimate need for tournaments to start assisting the best foreign players to tournaments (by best I mean those who are able to illustrate it in some kind of qualifier setting) so that we are always sending the best foreigners to every event and not those who live near by or have the support/backing to make it to every event.
Maybe I can say more. I cared because I was watching some tense and interesting starcraft. Because of that, I want tournament entry to be as merit based as possible.
Good point, but a good question to ask is whether or not IPL4 was as merit based as possible (or any tournament for that matter) when the 'qualifiers' for the 'main tournament' are held on site limiting the access to those who have the financial backing to attend?
I'd rather have that money put towards players that will play some amazing starcraft. I think it isn't so much a lack of upward mobility for players as it is an incredibly large skill gap between lower level and higher level pros. And I see no problem with paying more attention to a korean who is more skilled than a foreigner. Just look at Jinroh. He was a superstar during his ro4 gsl run and now he is quickly falling off the map.
Agreed, not because I care about casuals but because there is top talent going to waste in the foreign scene. I want more open qualifiers, and better coverage of those making name for themselves. Have someone taking out well-knowns? Put them on stream ASAP.
Do I have to rate this 1-star because of the martyr?
*My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*
you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.
Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.
Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.
I'm confused, there was no foreigner competition at all in BW for the past 10 years, yet we care about Korean Proleague, Starleagues, teams and players and their storylines.
So I would argue that the "foreigner" aspect isn't all there is in terms of emotional connection. I feel the foreign side of ESPORTS coverage has gotten extremely self-absorbed with the notion of "OMG, maybe we can compete". Every article is about what foreigners might or might not accomplish whereas the storylines around Koreans in context with the Korean scene is extremely lackluster to non-existant.
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, we don't care they're Korean because we've been reading translated articles concerning their lives and gaming for years. We've gotten the chance to identify with them as people, rather than it being another faceless Korean. We need a more in-depth view of the Korean scene and it's personalities so we can pick someone to cheer for, even when the games suck or there are no foreigners.
For instance, I'd love to know the man behind Squirtle. Where was he born, what kind of person does he see himself as, how was his youth, what hobby's does he have, what games does he play, how did he get on Startale, gossip concerning teammates etc etc.
You won in an exciting game 3:
The games went as planned for me, so i was able to win. I want to thank teammates for practice and my fans for cheering, kthx bye.
LoL is heading in the same direction of Korean control. With how popular the game is there and how relentlessly the Koreans train.. in a few months they will probably be the top teams in the world for sure.
I started watching IPL4 (business as usual), but I just had to stop. The reason for it does not lie with IPL and its staff, but within myself. The non-modded TL Live report Thread almost made me angry. I was literally shocked how people behaved on tl and that this had no consequenses. LRs shouldn`t be moderated as harsh as other threads because there are so many spontanious emotions. BUT the IPL4 LR was unbearable for me. So I decided to leave TL for the day after all the posts by people who wanted the people to act sane again, were simply ignored.
I watched the ongoing game and followed twitter for a while, but it wasn`t the same. I missed the older LRs. I missed the positive comments. I missed the caring mods. It ended very surprising for me. I just stops watching after that game was over and never tuned in again for the whole tournament.
I Agree with this a lot. The major tournaments or major organization should try to have some way for "new talent" to come in. That is at a lower cost, due to the fact that most people who even want to be a pro have very little to no money at all.
But I'm one of those people who don't look at a player handles then cheers for them as much as others rather I am a person who mostly cheers for "X" race (protoss, terran, zerg). For hopes of good games.
The casual viewerbase wouldn't be so consumed with Foreigner vs Korean if it hadn't been instilled into the viewing of sc2 since it started. A ton of sc2 fans never watched or were knowledgeable about the BW scene, and certainly not the foreign BW scene. However, all you heard from State of the Game ( love the show by the way not knocking it), and the 1st generation Foreign Bw pros was GO FOREIGNERS etc. Casters constantly throw the foreigner pride crap into their casting (mr. bitter comes to mind the most, but there are plenty of them), and it leads the casual viewerbase into this "important storyline". Its not their fault, that is how it was with sc1, but at the same time it made sc2 miss its chance to start on a clean slate.
I would almost go as far as to say that this obsession with Foreigner vs Korea puts a huge extra stress and pressure onto our white dude heroes, and maybe lifting that would actually help their results as well! Well written article, and I agree that this is stunting sc2 growth sadly. But the best way to deal with it is to start from the top down in not bringing this issue up, as the community looks to these people first and foremost. Let it stop being such a big deal, a lot of ppl are tired of it anyway! While doing this, we still need to find some way for foreigners to up their level, get more practice etc. With less stress, more open qualifiers that arent purposefully there to spite koreans, I think things could really improve.
This is what I've been preaching since day one about making it about the players and generating hype by good storytelling.
The producers and casters alike have to help generate hype. We need a change-up.
The casters (this pretty much goes for everyone in the West) need to switch it up when it comes to how they point out mistakes because it doesn't help build a player at all. There is still a lot they can learn when it comes to how the Korean's cast-- the roller coaster has to keep climbing to the peak rather than start and stopping. They always seem to find a way to devalue a player too even though they keep calling them "the best in the world." This phrase has to disappear. There are much better ways of promoting players and the producers could use more cameras that aren't static. That way you can provide full coverage as things happen and build the actual stories going on and as they unfold.
On April 21 2012 03:45 Saechiis wrote: I'm confused, there was no foreigner competition at all in BW for the past 10 years, yet we care about Korean Proleague, Starleagues, teams and players and their storylines.
So I would argue that the "foreigner" aspect isn't all there is in terms of emotional connection. I feel the foreign side of ESPORTS coverage has gotten extremely self-absorbed with the notion of "OMG, maybe we can compete". Every article is about what foreigner might or might not accomplish whereas the storylines around Koreans in context with the Korean scene is extremely lackluster to non-existant.
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, we don't care they're Korean because we've been reading translated articles concerning their lives and gaming for years. We've gotten the chance to identify with them as people, rather than it being another faceless Korean. We need a more in-depth view of the Korean scene and it's personalities so we can pick someone to cheer for, even when the games suck or there are no foreigners.
For instance, I'd love to know the man behind Squirtle. Where was he born, what kind of person does he see himself as, how was his youth, what hobby's does he have, what games does he play, how did he get on Startale, gossip concerning teammates etc etc.
You won in an exciting game 3: The games went as planned for me, so i was able to win. Thx to teammates for practive and my fans for cheering, kthx bye.
That's not enough o_O
The difference is that the people who cared about and played BW in the foreign scene were a small fraction of what people want to support ESPORTS. That being said, you're correct in that OGN and MBC (rip) did a much better job of promoting players because of their superior resources; GOM can't match that, and until OGN gets a contract with Blizzard for SC2 games we're not going to have good opportunities to learn about Korean players.
That being said, while I agree there are many foreign SC2 players who are getting their hands held because of name recognition (which seems to happen with EVERY major team), the League of Legends references weren't entirely truthful. League's viewership continues to grow at a rate unmatched (the reason why IPL4 boasted they had the biggest foreign viewership ever).
But more to the point, while you mentioned large gaming organizations sponsor League teams, the ones people cheer for in general are the ones that built the scene like Counter Logic and SoloMid. That's more because they built the game's viewership through streaming and more importantly, actually got results.
I have to agree with this 100%, and I'd go further than to say just casuals care about forigners. I watch nearly every major and minor tournament (time permitting) and I will simply turn it off once its all koreans. I'm simply not interested in watching them play outside of GS(T)L.
I believe for me it has to do with the amount of content - before, expecially with BW there weren't that many tournaments, there were very few finals so the excitement level was very high for me. Now, it seems we have a large tournament or significant event every other weekend if not every weekend, so each final is really meaningless to me. Without the west vs east commentary or some developed drama throughout the tournament (MC calling someone out in a big way for example) i'm not even remotely interested in the outcome.
I believe this also has to do with the fact that SC2 games on the whole can be very...anticlimactic compared to BW - the excitement level on a game by game basis is much lower, meaning that in any given final it could be a really simple walkover without an ounce of excitement (as we saw in GSL repeatedly).
If the trend continues the only way I'll continue to watch SC2 at the level I do currently is if tournaments bring back the no koreans allowed like TSL did, which is very sad to say.
On April 21 2012 03:45 Saechiis wrote: I'm confused, there was no foreigner competition at all in BW for the past 10 years, yet we care about Korean Proleague, Starleagues, teams and players and their storylines.
Well, firstly TL was a smaller community and definitely not aimed at your casual gamers. And secondly, we were clutching at storylines post 03.03 hoping that Bisu would be the next bonjwa and actually in 2007 the current generation of pros came into their own and had to build up their fanbases.
So I would argue that the "foreigner" aspect isn't all there is in terms of emotional connection. I feel the foreign side of ESPORTS coverage has gotten extremely self-absorbed with the notion of "OMG, maybe we can compete". Every article is about what foreigners might or might not accomplish whereas the storylines around Koreans in context with the Korean scene is extremely lackluster to non-existant.
To some extent, but the extent of Korean domination has made the foreigner storyline something we desperately want to see. And when it happens, we lap it up (see: Haypro vs Nestea/MVP for instance).
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, we don't care they're Korean because we've been reading translated articles concerning their lives and gaming for years. We've gotten the chance to identify with them as people, rather than it being another faceless Korean. We need a more in-depth view of the Korean scene and it's personalities so we can pick someone to cheer for, even when the games suck or there are no foreigners.
For instance, I'd love to know the man behind Squirtle. Where was he born, what kind of person does he see himself as, how was his youth, what hobby's does he have, what games does he play, how did he get on Startale, gossip concerning teammates etc etc.
You won in an exciting game 3:
The games went as planned for me, so i was able to win. I want to thank teammates for practice and my fans for cheering, kthx bye.
That's not enough o_O
Agreed with what you are saying here. And MKP is the perfect example of a Korean who has the storylines and the charisma to get people excited when they see him play. Perhaps you could go one further and rather than invest in foreigners and hope for that storyline to pay off, you invest in getting to know the players better who are performing (the faceless) through hosting smaller events where they're invited and build up the scene that way. It could work!
On April 21 2012 03:51 StarStruck wrote: Plexa,
This is what I've been preaching since day one about making it about the players and generating hype by good storytelling.
The producers and casters alike have to help generate hype. We need a change-up.
The casters (this pretty much goes for everyone in the West) need to switch it up when it comes to how they point out mistakes because it doesn't help build a player at all. There is still a lot they can learn when it comes to how the Korean's cast-- the roller coaster has to keep climbing to the peak rather than start and stopping. They always seem to find a way to devalue a player too even though they keep calling them "the best in the world." This phrase has to disappear. There are much better ways of promoting players and the producers could use more cameras that aren't static. That way you can provide full coverage as things happen and build the actual stories going on and as they unfold.
Dont even get me started about casting hahaha. Although Khaltosis could be the way of the future.
Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL ! Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG ! (I can't figure another reason than this ...)
I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup. I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level.
Completely agree. If foreigners can't keep up (first gen) and there are no second gen coming in (due to your reasons) we can only hope that first gen foreigners have a sudden change...like qxc getting out of college.
I don't think "korean" is the problem, but "faceless" definitely is. No one really cares about Alive and Squirtle as they aren't usually seen in foreign events.
The root of the problem is that the finalists for IPL4 did not have the tools to connect with the crowd. No background story, no face, no personality. The players themselves most definitely have a personality, but if we keep having events which cater to the underdog like IPL does, we'll keep seeing faceless players winning and fewer people giving a damn.
On April 21 2012 04:07 Novalisk wrote: I don't think "korean" is the problem, but "faceless" definitely is. No one really cares about Alive as this was one of his first events. No one really cares about Squirtle as he is rarely seen in foreign events.
The root of the problem is that the finalists for IPL4 did not have the tools to connect with the crowd. No background story, no face, no personality. The players themselves most definitely have a personality, but if we keep having events which cater to the underdog like IPL does, we'll keep seeing faceless players winning and fewer people giving a damn.
this is why things like GSL off the record are great things to have pop up.
The first game of sc:bw I ever watched, Plexa was casting. Your knowledge of RTS and wisdom about how a scene grows and maintains is so nice to read...I wish I could tap into your knowledge more often than a blog every now and then. Thanks man.
On April 21 2012 03:45 Saechiis wrote: I'm confused, there was no foreigner competition at all in BW for the past 10 years, yet we care about Korean Proleague, Starleagues, teams and players and their storylines.
Well, firstly TL was a smaller community and definitely not aimed at your casual gamers. And secondly, we were clutching at storylines post 03.03 hoping that Bisu would be the next bonjwa and actually in 2007 the current generation of pros came into their own and had to build up their fanbases.
So I would argue that the "foreigner" aspect isn't all there is in terms of emotional connection. I feel the foreign side of ESPORTS coverage has gotten extremely self-absorbed with the notion of "OMG, maybe we can compete". Every article is about what foreigners might or might not accomplish whereas the storylines around Koreans in context with the Korean scene is extremely lackluster to non-existant.
To some extent, but the extent of Korean domination has made the foreigner storyline something we desperately want to see. And when it happens, we lap it up (see: Haypro vs Nestea/MVP for instance).
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, we don't care they're Korean because we've been reading translated articles concerning their lives and gaming for years. We've gotten the chance to identify with them as people, rather than it being another faceless Korean. We need a more in-depth view of the Korean scene and it's personalities so we can pick someone to cheer for, even when the games suck or there are no foreigners.
For instance, I'd love to know the man behind Squirtle. Where was he born, what kind of person does he see himself as, how was his youth, what hobby's does he have, what games does he play, how did he get on Startale, gossip concerning teammates etc etc.
You won in an exciting game 3:
The games went as planned for me, so i was able to win. I want to thank teammates for practice and my fans for cheering, kthx bye.
That's not enough o_O
Agreed with what you are saying here. And MKP is the perfect example of a Korean who has the storylines and the charisma to get people excited when they see him play. Perhaps you could go one further and rather than invest in foreigners and hope for that storyline to pay off, you invest in getting to know the players better who are performing (the faceless) through hosting smaller events where they're invited and build up the scene that way. It could work!
This is what I've been preaching since day one about making it about the players and generating hype by good storytelling.
The producers and casters alike have to help generate hype. We need a change-up.
The casters (this pretty much goes for everyone in the West) need to switch it up when it comes to how they point out mistakes because it doesn't help build a player at all. There is still a lot they can learn when it comes to how the Korean's cast-- the roller coaster has to keep climbing to the peak rather than start and stopping. They always seem to find a way to devalue a player too even though they keep calling them "the best in the world." This phrase has to disappear. There are much better ways of promoting players and the producers could use more cameras that aren't static. That way you can provide full coverage as things happen and build the actual stories going on and as they unfold.
Dont even get me started about casting hahaha. Although Khaltosis could be the way of the future.
I also want to add that there is a racial component for me. I"m not sure if i'm the only one that feels this way but its at least relevant - the only way I'll watch a "faceless korean" that has no drama built up around him, is if he plays zerg. A TvP finals (alive squirtle) held even less weight for me than any zerg final.
The only solution to this is game/map balancing/zerg performing, but I believe (with the exception of GSL BLAH) that this is going very well.
On April 21 2012 03:45 Saechiis wrote: I'm confused, there was no foreigner competition at all in BW for the past 10 years, yet we care about Korean Proleague, Starleagues, teams and players and their storylines.
So I would argue that the "foreigner" aspect isn't all there is in terms of emotional connection. I feel the foreign side of ESPORTS coverage has gotten extremely self-absorbed with the notion of "OMG, maybe we can compete". Every article is about what foreigners might or might not accomplish whereas the storylines around Koreans in context with the Korean scene is extremely lackluster to non-existant.
Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, Stork, we don't care they're Korean because we've been reading translated articles concerning their lives and gaming for years. We've gotten the chance to identify with them as people, rather than it being another faceless Korean. We need a more in-depth view of the Korean scene and it's personalities so we can pick someone to cheer for, even when the games suck or there are no foreigners.
For instance, I'd love to know the man behind Squirtle. Where was he born, what kind of person does he see himself as, how was his youth, what hobby's does he have, what games does he play, how did he get on Startale, gossip concerning teammates etc etc.
You won in an exciting game 3:
The games went as planned for me, so i was able to win. I want to thank teammates for practice and my fans for cheering, kthx bye.
That's not enough o_O
Exactly this. Koreans need more PR, if anything. Hopefully the merger with the proleague will help with that (DES/fomos coverage, etc.)
I do agree with you Plexa on the foreign players. Right now if you were good in beta/early release of sc2 before koreans started coming to sc2 and did well (think Naniwa who won an MLG) got their names out and became big names. Since the "korean invasion" nobody notices the foreigners who may be better then idra/thorzain/kas/etc (this is just an example nobody rip on it :D). But they don't go to LAN's either because of money or they realize it is pointless because they have to not only play in a huge open bracket, but it is stacked with really good korean players. They could be one of the best foreigners and could beat some big foreigners in the open bracket and then lose to say jjakji, MVP, MC, Nestea and so on with all the good koreans and they will not be noticed.
Now of days it's pretty much luck in terms of bracket to get noticed as a foreigner (for example, imagine if Scarlett had played Leenock first round of the tournament, she most likely would have been knocked down to the loser bracket there and then played some other really good korean and lost in an earlier round and would not have been noticed at all, but she faced a korean terious and then ddoro and won, then in losers got demuslim and won and well we all know, but point being had she faced you know leenock then hero or oz or some other twice nobody would know who she was. Her beating Terious (not sure who this is but he's korean and he's on prime and in code A), Ddoro, taking a game off of oz, and then beating demuslim got her name out there.
I also agree with you on the aspect of qualifiers as well. Right now every single tournament has way, way to many invites and then a few qualifying spots. Invite tournaments are nice and all but should be much rarer then they are now. This is one of the reasons I wish TSL4 would be announced because it's mainly a qualify and you can play tournament (and I pray to god it stays that way). TSL is a way for players to get their names out there (especially if koreans can't play in all the qualifiers). This makes it a lot easier to get your name out there as a player if there are a lot of qualify and barely any invites compared to how it is now where there is mainly invites with some qualifiers.
Just my thoughts on it anyway, good read I enjoyed and agreed with most of your points ^^.
well this sort of reminds me of college and pro level sports. 95% of foreigners are "college-level" when comparing to the "pro-level" koreans. sure they should have some events that are purely non-korean, but have a much reduced prize pool because these people aren't "pro-level". the top 5 or whatever (depending upon the size of the tournament) should be able to qualify for a tournament that has both koreans and non-koreans since they are the best of the "college-level" and HAVE to compete with the "pro-levels" if they want to show if they're any good.
i think another large reason this is a problem for no-namers, is because tournaments like MLG just seed in people who have been playing for a while - mostly the better non-koreans (who generally aren't on the same level as the koreans, and fall into losers bracket and then out of tournament) while the others (who may be just as good as those who were seeded) have to face off against someone like Leenock who beats them early on in the tournament, but really this player was no better than the people who were seeded into winners bracket and lost to Leenock or whoever also.
I like cheering for underdogs, any underdog, unless they are playing against 'favorites'. But favorites are generally past underdogs who manage to realize their potential. Right now the best underdog story is the foreigner vs Korean, as opposed to Korean underdog vs established Korean.
I like Squirtle (some personality and an underdog), but I couldn't care at all for Alive (not an underdog, boring and not personable). Oh well, there's Naniwa, Creator, Leenock, Stephano, Maru and Illusion to look forward to their future.
Also always fun to watch MVP, MarineKing, Parting, Hero, DRG and Nestea display skill.
I agree a lot with what you said. Outside of a few personable koreans like MC and DRG, most korean players arent very entertaining to watch, regardless of skill.
Someone should link that troll flash video of the korean plane landing and scooping up the MLG cheque
and then there are the awkward asian americans stuck in the middle.
as a "foreigner" who am i supposed to support? i don't look like idra or incontrol, but i'm not korean either. and then everybody keeps playing up the race issue as though that's supposed to be ok. turns out texans aren't as racist as tl.
On April 21 2012 04:01 LunaSea wrote: Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL ! Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG ! (I can't figure another reason than this ...)
I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup. I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level.
When you can't figure out a better explanation than a conspiracy theory, you oughtn't post.
I honestly don't care much about the actual players playing.
Sure, I have some favorites of my own that I like to see win, but that is secondary to good Starcraft. The finals were actually the highlight of IPL4 for me, which otherwise was a little lackluster.
I don't think artificially infusing or inflating foreigner chances just so westerners can feel involved is a fair thing to do.
One of the biggest problems with marketing in both scenes is that the relevant media will always hype up the foreigner-underdog/Korean-overlord distinction over talking about individual players. So in the end we are always cheering for abstractions/representations of concepts (the legend, the national hero, the foreigner underdog, the girl standing up to a guy-dominated sport) instead of actual people who embody these concepts. This wouldn't even be so bad except the scene is not deep enough to localize its support along the lines of basketball or soccer.
I agree with this, I want the highest level of games possible and I don't mind if they are korean, however you are correct, there are alot of people who do not feel this way.
While I care about alot of the koreans, DRG, MKP, HerO, Taeja, all of the old BW legends I simply didn't feel like Alive vs Squirtle brought anything for me.
well that and I personally dislike TvP.
There are infact alot of Koreans who do have personality(the ones aforementioned) the only problem is, there are way more koreans who are all (much) better then a large part of the foreigners, yet they have as you say no ''face''. They can be flown out and will destroy any foreigner hope or atleast elminate alot of them very swiftly.
There isn't only an oversaturation of Tournaments, there is also an oversaturation of (very) good korean players who have no face, this is not them being at fault though and can be very hard to solve.
Agreed, when 2 Koreans play I couldn't care less who actually wins. There's maybe 3 Korean players that I like watching cause they somewhat have a personality. I didn't even watch the IPL4 finals tbh with you cuz I really didn't care about the winner.
They won their matches so yeh... they deserved to be in the finals but every SC2 tourney is so random compared to real sports. In tennis there's ~4 players that always win the major tournaments, there's always some new guys that perform well but they don't reach the finals. Same goes for pretty much any sport. But in SC2 players that don't really have any results can actually just win the biggest tournament until now cause they are having a good weekend.
This is really bad from a spectator perspective since it's hard to be a fan of a player if they perform completely different on any tournament they play.
Don't you think the problem is partly the game and not just the community? SC2 was designed to be more volatile than BW. Luck plays more of a part and allows lesser skilled Koreans to knock off better skilled Koreans on a more routine basis than they could in BW. The first generation foreigners are hopelessly outskilled but the faceless Koreans are close enough in skill that they could knock off the better ones. We won't have this problem if it's the same, few top Koreans dominating instead of some random faceless one.
Though I have to admit that the foreigner scene is partly at fault. A good analogy would be: Korean progamer = Meryl Streep Foreign progamer = Kim Kardashian The foreign scene is too much into drama instead of actual playing ability.
On April 21 2012 05:07 HardlyNever wrote: I honestly don't care much about the actual players playing.
Sure, I have some favorites of my own that I like to see win, but that is secondary to good Starcraft. The finals were actually the highlight of IPL4 for me, which otherwise was a little lackluster.
I don't think artificially infusing or inflating foreigner chances just so westerners can feel involved is a fair thing to do.
Unsure whether you actually read the OP at all, he talked about a fairer qualification process for tournaments. Not spoonfeeding places to foreigners.
On April 21 2012 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Don't you think the problem is partly the game and not just the community? SC2 was designed to be more volatile than BW. Luck plays more of a part and allows lesser skilled Koreans to knock off better skilled Koreans on a more routine basis than they could in BW. The first generation foreigners are hopelessly outskilled but the faceless Koreans are close enough in skill that they could knock off the better ones. We won't have this problem if it's the same, few top Koreans dominating instead of some random faceless one.
Though I have to admit that the foreigner scene is partly at fault. A good analogy would be: Korean progamer = Meryl Streep Foreign progamer = Kim Kardashian The foreign scene is too much into drama instead of actual playing ability.
The best Koreans are the faceless Koreans.
On April 21 2012 05:20 Jakkerr wrote: Agreed, when 2 Koreans play I couldn't care less who actually wins. There's maybe 3 Korean players that I like watching cause they somewhat have a personality. I didn't even watch the IPL4 finals tbh with you cuz I really didn't care about the winner.
They won their matches so yeh... they deserved to be in the finals but every SC2 tourney is so random compared to real sports. In tennis there's ~4 players that always win the major tournaments, there's always some new guys that perform well but they don't reach the finals. Same goes for pretty much any sport. But in SC2 players that don't really have any results can actually just win the biggest tournament until now cause they are having a good weekend.
This is really bad from a spectator perspective since it's hard to be a fan of a player if they perform completely different on any tournament they play.
This is also why tennis is boring as a spectator sport and does not inspire the same fervor as certain team sports.
I've always felt the problem with SC2 (outside of the game itself) is that there are simply too many progamers and tournaments. People were really hard on KeSPA when they wanted to stop the shottily produced GOMTV league, but I always felt there was a certain logic to keeping a limit on the number of games a player had to practice for and the number of leagues a fan had to watch. Things do become more difficult to watch when there is no sense of "these are the elite few privileged to play the in the highest league there is." Even when the tournament has a lot of money or a lot of viewers, it means nothing if there is no proof that they are the best of the best of the best. You could always say 'amateurs are nothing compared to those in the OSL' 'B-teamers are nothing compared to those in Proleague' knowing that they could not win more than 1 game out of 10 vs the true elite. But when you saturate yourself with tournaments where the low level players vastly outnumber the truly skilled, of course you are more likely to see boring players reach the finals. It's not a matter of them really earning their victory, it's a matter of sheer probability. Even if you only lose 1 in ten times to those players, if you play ten of them you're not getting to the finals. Even if you only win one of ten games vs a good player, if there are ten others like you, one of you is gonna get thru.
No hand outs is great, fine, you'll ensure your league has more legitimacy that way. Hand picking players who have proven themselves and pitting them against each other... That's when you start to see the game mature.
On April 21 2012 05:20 andrewlt wrote: Don't you think the problem is partly the game and not just the community? SC2 was designed to be more volatile than BW. Luck plays more of a part and allows lesser skilled Koreans to knock off better skilled Koreans on a more routine basis than they could in BW. The first generation foreigners are hopelessly outskilled but the faceless Koreans are close enough in skill that they could knock off the better ones. We won't have this problem if it's the same, few top Koreans dominating instead of some random faceless one.
Volatility at the top is a problem, but blaming the game is easy as it's something we cannot change as a community.
Instead, we must look at what we can do in order to make the top more stable.
Plexa, you didn't mention anything about MLG's qualifier system. Do you view that as moving in the direction you want? It's unfortunate that the Winter Arena clashed with ASUS ROG, which kept some good Europeans away. And with the Spring season it's becoming more open. I look forward to some NA region players breaking into the Spring Arena 2!
"marketing is why people are still rooting for incontrol and tyler and idra when they could be rooting for illusion, and marketing for the short term will kill sc2 foreign scene in the long term"
Im an example of one that started seeing tournaments in the beta , i almost never lose a big tournament (especially semifinals and finals) if i can work around to see it but even knowing that IPL4 was running i didnt really watch this one , all the players with history falled pretty early (foreigners and known koreans) and as much as i like squirtles play...
I dont know feels like watching 2nd division football for me instead of 1st div , i mean i like football but ill not go as far as not knowing the players , their history , no drama... no underdog bc you really dont know anything about the players.
the foreign scene shouldnt close doors to the koreans , but this kind of takeover should not be encouraged as it was again ever imho.
On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
I think it would still be a problem in SC2s case because most of the tournaments and money is coming from foreign sources, not Korean ones.
That's why I think SC2 is ultimately doomed. Korean interest is low, foreign involvement is high, but Korean players are becoming more and more dominant. Eventually it's just going to be Korean players in foreign tournaments, and I don't know who is going to watch that.
I had been thinking about this problem a bit myself, and I think Plexa definitely hits the nail on the head. I don't think Koreans have all that much of an inherent advantage these days. We're seeing gaming houses and talented players practicing with dedicated partners for hours at a time in the foreigner scene, but this hasn't led to an explosion of talent and skill in already-entrenched players. At the same time, players like Stephano who manage to get that big break become enormous seemingly out of nowhere. What we lack is the ability to weed out the lesser players from the potentially great ones, and where in Korea we see players like FruitDealer disappear entirely, that hasn't been the case for players like <insert consistently underperforming pro of choice here>. And meanwhile, players who might have had a shot had they been "bred" properly have to fight these koreans that have managed to unseat the former greats and received te proper suppprt to become even better. Formats like MLG's seeding system last year definitely exacerbated this issue.
When I watched the SKT v KT Proleague Grand Finals, it wasn't just a Bo7 match. It was a clash of two storied histories. A massive grudge between two fan bases coming to a head.
When Fantasy stepped up to Flash, it wasn't just a TvT. It was a culmination of years of jockeying for throne of Terran. It was the evolution of the Bo8 from two years ago when Flash and Fantasy had to face each other in WCG and MSL elimination on the same day.
And when Bisu walked up to face Flash, it wasn't a PvT. It was a culmination of the collective hopes and dreams of each team into the arena. We know who they were. We knew what they stood for. The match was more than just Starcraft. There was a massive context that created emotion and meaning.
I don't feel that watching SC2. I know who Ssak was and his story behind his Valk victory over Flash and his crushing defeat by ggaemo. I know about By.Sun. Or the aggressive TurN, and how Action picked himself up. I don't know how Squirtle is or why I should care about him. I've only heard of Illusion in passing and know litle else. If you're good, you should be able to rise and get shown the spotlight. We talk about the Royal Road in the OSL and there's massive scrutiny when someone new breaks into the Ro16. I have no clue who is Royal Roading in MLG.
It makes me sad. I don't want just good games. I can get that from watching replays. I want emotion in my games. I want meaning. I want something I can relate to as a fan. I want that connection.
I think a huge contributing factor to the "faceless korean" phenomenon is how unsettled the korean scene really is. No one has stepped out as a consistent dominant force for a long time and hence it is hard to market an individual like BW did. Like, MVP and Nestea and MC have all been very good, but none good enough to latch onto as the dominant guy on the scene.
Korean SC2 desperately needs a Flash/Jaedong. I don't follow professional SC that closely anymore, but when I see a tournament billed as the "most competitive ever" and alive/squirte are the finalists it is really hard to get interested. Those guys have solid but uninspiring resumes.
This is true for any sport. I pay attention to tennis finals when federer/nadal/djokovic are making the finals and get bored when it is murray/tsonga or any other solid guy who doesn't capture the imagination of that next level performance.
I like my fav Koreans, I really do. I don't have a GSL subscription because the games are just played at times I simply can't watch in the US.
But for a tournament to be really exciting for me, it has to be either my top super favorite Koreans- MC, MMA, DRG for example- or some foreigners.
15/16 champ slots for Koreans led to a pretty boring Sunday for IPL4 for me. The most exciting things were Scarlett and Illusions runs, and they didn't even show those.
Sunday ended up being more of a LAN with my buddies than a tourney experience (we apartmentcrafted with beers, a 54" LED with the games, and our comps), with breaks to watch Stephano. If DRG had been on the run instead of Squirtle, I probably would have cared.
But the OP is right. There's just too many good Koreans to be fans of them ALL. Yes, Squirtle has won me some liquibets points. But Squirtle vs Alive? I just didn't care. It was cool to see Bomber again, but man, I could have used some Ret, Thorzain, and NaNiWa in the top there.
On April 21 2012 06:06 petered wrote: I think a huge contributing factor to the "faceless korean" phenomenon is how unsettled the korean scene really is. No one has stepped out as a consistent dominant force for a long time and hence it is hard to market an individual like BW did. Like, MVP and Nestea and MC have all been very good, but none good enough to latch onto as the dominant guy on the scene.
Korean SC2 desperately needs a Flash/Jaedong. I don't follow professional SC that closely anymore, but when I see a tournament billed as the "most competitive ever" and alive/squirte are the finalists it is really hard to get interested. Those guys have solid but uninspiring resumes.
This is true for any sport. I pay attention to tennis finals when federer/nadal/djokovic are making the finals and get bored when it is murray/tsonga or any other solid guy who doesn't capture the imagination of that next level performance.
MVP for a lot of 2011 was very dominant. The only problem is and why he has fallen off lately is due to his wrists being super bad. He showed that you can be a dominant player and he was until his wrists got the better of him and he can't pracitce like before. Nestea/MC are good but not as dominant as MVP was for a lot of 2011.
I agree with the idea that we should get more talent "out". But for that to happen, we should need something which the Korean scene has well developed, something like Courage tournaments, and also a way to survive after becoming a pro: drafts and teamhouses. What is more, we also need an international governing body, something similar to KeSPA(but less crazy), which would and should allow progaming to grow and keep it organised.
Another problem I see with the scene and getting the top-notch international players(I dislike the use of foreigners here) to represent us at major events, is the huge growth which has happened to SC2. There are many smaller competitions(€0-5000), but few major tournaments. The problem with major tournaments is the competition between businesses. The best recent example is the 2 huge international tournaments, Dreamhack and MLG spring arena. They're on exactly the same day, and this shouldn't happen. I'd understand if they were smaller, national level competitions, but they're international. For example, in traditional sports, we wouldn't have to choose between watching either Olympic Games or World Championships. So overlapping and silly competition between organisations is also ruining the growth of SC2(or esports).
Lastly, I'd like to see something similar to Korea's GSL/OSL, which are played by Korea's own players(predominantly), and not by foreigners. If we want international talent, then countries in Europe, America, Africa, Asia(excluding Korea) etc, should have tournaments which allow only that country's competitors where the tournaments is held at. That wouldn't scare the locals and would possibly encourage the growth of SC2(or esports).
Sorry for my bad grammar, I hope that my ideas are at least understandable and make some sense.
Edit: The "faceless korean" is in my opinion a small problem. If there would be 4 koreans, and 20 international players in a tournament, and a "faceless korean" would win, we wouldn't even have the idea of a "faceless korean". Another reason why the "faceless korean" thought has come up, is simply beacuse of the language barrier, the lack of coverage, and the idea of doing an "international tournament" outside korea which is full of koreans,. I'm sure MLG's, IPL's could make some interviews with the "faceless koreans" before the tournament starts, and undo their facelessness.
I feel the faceless Korean syndrome is helped along by the lack of a good team league in Korea. I know nearly every BW pro, at least more than I know Squirtle. I have a chance to see them play on a regular basis due to Proleague, but in the GSL you have to impress in code S or almost nobody knows of you.
If we got to see these "not top 8 code S but still talented enough to (almost) win IPL" Koreans on a more regular basis, they might not be so faceless. It might be more interesting watching them win tournaments.
Of course, I watch BW where it's just Koreans, and I'd still watch SC2 if it was just Koreans -- there's a lot of people who won't, and finding better foreigners is important as well. Still, I wouldn't mind seeing less faceless Koreans and more people I recognize.
I for one stopped watching after Stephano got knocked out even though I'm not a fan of his, partly due to it getting late but mostly due to the reasons you stated on OP.
While I'd love to say that I just want to see the best players play it's not quite true anymore, rather would see popular Koreans vs top foreigners fighting on even ground, or with a slight underdog setting for the foreigners.
I don't think the gap between Koreans and foreigners has gotten any worse at least, thats a positive. It may seem like that with Koreans invading foreign tournaments in numbers now unlike when Select was the only "Korean" in foreign tournaments but skill levels seem roughly the same between Korea and world to me as earlier SC2 days.
The term "faceless Koreans" really does a good job of explaining the situation. As someone who doesn't follow the GSL (because it's on at 4 in the flippin' morning here!) I can relate to this a bit. There have been a few MLGs now where there's one or two really high level players that I've never heard of before, who then go on to demolish several top foriegners. It's a bit odd, but it's hard to be excited when you have no idea whose playing.
So why is the foreign community putting up such a poor fight against Koreans at the moment? My theory is this: in the beginning of SC2’s lifespan a number of progamers established a well defined identity – moreso outside of Korea than in. Now as the game evolved many of the first generation Koreans couldn’t keep up with the ever increasing level of play, and we had a second generation of players come through (no thanks to the poor format of early GSLs). The Korean scene continues to weed out weak players through the new and brutal Code S format; this keeps the best at the top regardless of their fanbase.
I agree, but I think other factors are at play here as well. I think one of the things that plays in here is the carry-over from BW, not just in terms of skill but in terms of funding and structure as well. Even though Boxer isn't as skilled as he once was, I've got to imagine having someone like him on Slayers, imparting his experience and knowlege, has got to make some difference. There's also the fact that just about every Korean team has a team house with coaching, service, and management staff; a luxury many foriegn teams simply aren't afforded. If you take a look at the support the gamers in the Star Tail house have, that's got to make a difference in their performance, at least a small one.
On April 21 2012 05:33 Chef wrote: I've always felt the problem with SC2 (outside of the game itself) is that there are simply too many progamers and tournaments. People were really hard on KeSPA when they wanted to stop the shottily produced GOMTV league, but I always felt there was a certain logic to keeping a limit on the number of games a player had to practice for and the number of leagues a fan had to watch. Things do become more difficult to watch when there is no sense of "these are the elite few privileged to play the in the highest league there is." Even when the tournament has a lot of money or a lot of viewers, it means nothing if there is no proof that they are the best of the best of the best. You could always say 'amateurs are nothing compared to those in the OSL' 'B-teamers are nothing compared to those in Proleague' knowing that they could not win more than 1 game out of 10 vs the true elite. But when you saturate yourself with tournaments where the low level players vastly outnumber the truly skilled, of course you are more likely to see boring players reach the finals. It's not a matter of them really earning their victory, it's a matter of sheer probability. Even if you only lose 1 in ten times to those players, if you play ten of them you're not getting to the finals. Even if you only win one of ten games vs a good player, if there are ten others like you, one of you is gonna get thru.
No hand outs is great, fine, you'll ensure your league has more legitimacy that way. Hand picking players who have proven themselves and pitting them against each other... That's when you start to see the game mature.
I disagree. I think MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, and to a lesser extent NASL have really distinguished themselves as the top foriegn tournaments. Yes there are other big tournaments like the EG Master's cup and ESL, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the argument that they are on the same level in terms of production and quality.
I think Plexa hit it on the head when he brought up Scarlett. We really need more people asking how a complete unknown, who never played RTS games seriously before SC2, could come in and demolish someone like Demuslim. I think we've all known for a while that some of the "top" players are overrated, but obviously we've really chosen as a community to ignore the severity of the issue.
The real question is, what do you do about it? If you're MLG, do you really want to risk losing viewers by running a tournament structure that excludes the "popular" players? It's a dicy issue.
On April 21 2012 04:01 LunaSea wrote: Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL ! Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG ! (I can't figure another reason than this ...)
I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup. I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level.
When you can't figure out a better explanation than a conspiracy theory, you oughtn't post.
You've clearly been replaced by some type of robot that spews TL-propoganda. Probably some version of the software they use to run Torte de Lini.
Have to agree with your position that most people just weren't invested in the final match of IPL 4.
It really felt like people ran for the turnstiles at the conclusion of the final match. The trophy ceremony felt exceedingly shorter and more hurried than any that I've had the pleasure of being able to photograph. It felt like the only people left in that huge hallway cheering and celebrating were the staff of the event, the teams of the players involved, and the media documenting the occasion. Even the finals ceremony for NASL Season 2 felt more exciting, because even though there wasn't that many people in the crowd to begin with, the people who were there stayed for the entire ceremony.
GSTL Finals the previous day was incredibly hype, though. Perhaps the excitement of that night made the next day feel more muted in comparison.
Pretty good analysis, and I agree with most of your main point. From my own experience, I have to say that personalities and favorites are huuuuuge deals when it comes to a casual fan. Even when SC2 came out and I started following it hardcore, I was still kept following the BW scene casually just because I had a connection with Khan, Stork, and Jangbi, and wanted to keep up with them and how they were doing. Even now, I almost solely watch BW games and tournaments with KHAN in them, and there's still enough games going around to keep me loving and following BW as a whole. I love watching good BW games, but as much as I do, with SC2, Netflix, and a hundred other things for me to do, it often takes that personal connection to get met to actually watch.
So basically, my experience with BW matches up pretty well with what you've said. SC2 has a lot of really popular foreigners who don't necessarily do that well in tournaments with Koreans, and I agree that that's somewhat of a problem. I'm not really sure that just having more open competitions is the way to go--it's certainly part of it, but I feel like more fun invite tournaments with fan favorites could help as well. We'll see.
I feel like this blog sums up what is causing a lot of the problems with the "foreign" scene ( I hate that term btw, sure it made sense from a Korean perspective in BW but the primary market for SC2 is not in Korea, lets just stick to nationalities or East vs West). Yes, good SC2 games are great to watch and all but when it gets down to it, people watch sports of every type ( US football, football, hockey, baseball, basketball, w/e) because they associate with a certain team. I truly doubt you can find anyone who watches professional sports who doesn't have a favorite team and their viewership is influenced by how that team performs. In pro SC2, especially in individual tournaments, the "faceless koreans" are not easy to root for. Yes there will always be the few impassioned fans who know about them and root for them, but it will never captivate a larger audience without the appeal of a known product, which in the case of the west, the main market for SC2, is a "foreigner".
Edit: This really deserves to be spotlighted, it sums up some really good thoughts on the SC2 scene as a whole
I completely agree with this blog. Players like Maru, Curious, Ace, Squirtle, Hack etc. all have a chance to win foreigner tournaments but I have no idea who they are and wouldn't give a shit if they won an MLG or a Dreamhack. People keep saying that they just want to see the highest level of play in SC2 but I have no interest in watching 2 faceless koreans battle it out in a final even if their level of play is higher. I'd rather watch a final of 2 closely matched foreigners who I can relate to even if they aren't on the same level as koreans.
I really like this post and I agree with a lot of what you've written about here. I guess for me, the main issue is how far do we want SC2 to go as an Esport? How sustainable can this game actually be in the long run?
I would love to see Starcraft 2 becoming an Esport like baseball / hockey / football / basketball is to regular sports.
However, I'm not sure if computer games have the ability to support such long-term traditional (E)sports. It seems like most computers games will create (E)sports that are similar to Slamball, Rollerderby or Whipeout.
It's not that those sports aren't legit - they totally have their entertainment value and even sporting value as well. But they just sort of pop up, and people watch em and get into them for awhile, then they disappear. Even if they are still around - somewhere on the tv or IRL... they still seem to disappear to the general public.
I remember playing SC and War3 and really enjoying the ladder. However, it seemed like those games weren't really being played by a ton of people competitively. Everyone I knew was playing Halo or Dota (on war3) and even now those games are over the hill.
I personally think that computer games will come and go quickly from decade to decade. Sure, they will be marketed and used as a tool to make money. But i wouldn't be surprised if SC2 wasn't even featured in MLG in a few years... There is going to be other BETTER games that will come out and replace it. People will get jazzed for a few years then forget about it...
To me, the foreign or Korean argument falls to the way side that SC2 can not support any kind of "casual" fan what so ever...
I know my ideas here are quite pessimistic. Don't get me wrong, I love this game and I hope that it thrives as an Esport... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see and try are hardest to support it along the way.
I disagree. I think MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, and to a lesser extent NASL have really distinguished themselves as the top foriegn tournaments. Yes there are other big tournaments like the EG Master's cup and ESL, but I think anyone would have a hard time making the argument that they are on the same level in terms of production and quality.
You've missed the point completely. Even if it's just MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, NASL, and however many Codes of GSL there are, you pretty much have to make a career out of being a viewer to follow it all and thinned out the best players across too many tournaments.
As someone who keeps up with SC2 quite a bit I consider myself very knowledgeable of the SC2 scene. That being said it still pains me to watch Koreans dominate tournaments. I share your sentiments in that I really don't know that much about them other than their play styles and such. Whereas players like IdrA, Naniwa, Ret are all very familiar to me. I watch their streams and have kept up with them and they have a personality I can relate to behind their username.
I don't feel this sentiment towards all Koreans though - players like MC, DRG, MKP are all friendly faces whom I can relate some sort of human characteristics and interactions with. It just makes the tournament much more fun when I can root for personalities rather than races - which is what I so often find myself doing when I watch a tournament with a majority of Koreans.
I am eagerly awaiting Koreans to start making names for themselves in foreigner-land like MKP, MC, and DRG have done. I would enjoy watching tournaments so much more and wouldn't consider them as "Oh man, I see some players I like, some I don't, and then the players that will dominate whom I don't know much about."
As an ending token I'd like to add that this is all just my opinion and that you may consider other Koreans more 'famous' than those that I listed or consider the players that I listed not very popular at all - it's just my idols so don't be offended if I didn't list yours.
On April 21 2012 05:33 Chef wrote: I've always felt the problem with SC2 (outside of the game itself) is that there are simply too many progamers and tournaments. People were really hard on KeSPA when they wanted to stop the shottily produced GOMTV league, but I always felt there was a certain logic to keeping a limit on the number of games a player had to practice for and the number of leagues a fan had to watch. Things do become more difficult to watch when there is no sense of "these are the elite few privileged to play the in the highest league there is." Even when the tournament has a lot of money or a lot of viewers, it means nothing if there is no proof that they are the best of the best of the best. You could always say 'amateurs are nothing compared to those in the OSL' 'B-teamers are nothing compared to those in Proleague' knowing that they could not win more than 1 game out of 10 vs the true elite. But when you saturate yourself with tournaments where the low level players vastly outnumber the truly skilled, of course you are more likely to see boring players reach the finals. It's not a matter of them really earning their victory, it's a matter of sheer probability. Even if you only lose 1 in ten times to those players, if you play ten of them you're not getting to the finals. Even if you only win one of ten games vs a good player, if there are ten others like you, one of you is gonna get thru.
No hand outs is great, fine, you'll ensure your league has more legitimacy that way. Hand picking players who have proven themselves and pitting them against each other... That's when you start to see the game mature.
I disagree. One thing I loved about the old GOMTV league is the sheer number of players. Where else could you market players like DarkElf, Memory or Lomo as stars? So when the real elite showed up and stomped these players you KNEW they were the shit. "OMG he 3-0'd Memory he must be really good."
The problem is that those Koreans (for one reason or another) don't have a public image. It's unlucky that we have so many Koreans but I think part of the problem lies in the format. There's simply no time to build up these players in a single weekend, to get to know them a little better. You need a wide base and skill based open competition. But you need to give enough time between the moment an unknown fights through the open bracket and when he fights for the crown.
Maybe there are ways to make the non-Korean scene more competitive. But any successful strategy has to include ways to make _any_ strong player marketable. Even if he happens to be a faceless Korean.
edit: I guess, I should add, I don't think the real problem is that terrible players are reaching the finals because there's so many of them. The problem is good or great, but relatively unknown players going far.
I find a lot of players that people say are good actually are terrible considering they're playing at a pro level. Most of these are foreigners. People just like to hype up foreigners for whatever reason and forget that there are actually much much higher skill level players.
Faceless Koreans? Only because fans are blinded by foreigner pride IMO
It's interesting how this got posted on the same day as TL's Front Page "Much Ado About Nothing." I was at IPL4, and as was stated in that piece, we all knew the foreigner seeds were for hype with vague justifications (except for Stephano).
I enjoyed your argument a lot, Plexa. I hadn't thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense. It's also a bit terrifying, especially as we get more and more Korean dominated events. I believe exposure through properly targeted orchestration of events (IPL4 had TERRIBLE game selection) would help a lot, but stacking a bracket with 50% Koreans just smothers our new ESports youth in its infancy. I left before Nestea vs Squirtle finished to drive back to CA and just had my friends read me the live report results - because once Nestea was out, I didn't care enough about Squirtle vs Alive (even with Squirtle's interesting bracket run).
As we can all say, we want to see top level play - but we also want to see our fan favorites and storylines. For foreigners, SC2 is our chance to make a splash. Jinro, Idra, and Huk made the first seasons of GSL always interesting as they were doing well. This season has been the most exciting ever for me because I can watch Naniwa (who I've always loved through all his shit) reach for the foreigner dream as well as the honorary Foreigners (Liquid'Hero and potentially Taeja) show it up.
I do not believe "high-level play" is what maintains sports. We can look at professional sports and see that the franchises and the players are what teams are going for. I think LoL is a poorly balanced game - but I still get a kick out of watching CLG (the most storied team who has gone to Korea) go up against the new breakout high school team at IPL4.
I do not believe "racism" or "protectionism" is necessarily the answer to the "Korean Blight." I don't know what the answer truly is. Your suggestion of qualifiers with invites sounds promising. A limit on Koreans may be the unfortunate way to go - if not overt (or rather, not going out of the way to invite 31 Koreans (GSTL excepting.)).
We need to grow our foreigner teams, our players, and our fans if SC2 is to survive outside of Korea. Maybe when OGN picks up hosting SC2, there will be enough incentive for Koreans to remain in Korea more often.
PS. How do we feel about honorary foreigners (Koreans on foreigner teams - JYP, Hero, Taeja, Zenio, etc.)?
I don't understand why there aren't more open qualifiers or even more camera time devoted to said qualifiers.
The playhem daily is a perfect example that there are viewers out there willing to generate ad revenue for the smaller market players. Why can't the big boys in the foreign scene embrace that and help it grow?
Or tournaments to adopt a similarly open structure - imagine instead of the whole "focus on the invational pools, and a few people from an open bracket will get into pools" to the entire tournament being an open bracket with results determining if you make the cutoff into pool play, and the pool results determine one last cut and seeding in a direct elimination bracket.
Right now the practice of seeding high level Koreans directly into pool play is unfair to everyone, foreigner and non-seeded Korean alike.
TSL4 incoming? I agree, though I don't think you phrased it very well, sorry. I don't really know what the solution is, but the foreign scene needs a shot in the arm, something Stephano alone doing decently against Koreans cant do. We need Stephano, Thorzain, Violet (cause he's training outside of Korea) Kas, Demuslim, Nerchio, Illusion, Dimaga, Idra and Sen all taking games off of Koreans consistently. We need have a foreign system for developing players work. I think part of it lies with teams. I've heard so much about how foreign players don't play customs enough, with a wide variety of players, purely for the purpose of improvement, putting the ego aside.. We hear so much about how the Korean ladder is the best. Well, why don't all the above players, and all the other foreign players play with everyone else, with everyone improving. EU to NA lag is good enough to play competitively, there's an entire scene which should be working together, rather than the fragmentation that we seem to have now. When EG used to stream their practice in house games (though they've stopped now, I hope because they don't want other players watching their games, not because they stopped playing them) it was interesting, because there were not that many players outside the house playing with them. To me, when a pro wants to play a custom game, their should be loads of other pros wanting to play with them, so they can both improve by playing against another good player, rather than continuing to play masters players on ladder. I'm very tired, that could all have been gibberish, please tell me if so.
1. Personally, I feel there is a oversaturation of tournaments. I mean, there are literally so many SC2 tournaments going on it's hard for the average viewer to keep track of what is happening. While people may think this is good, after a while, the market begins to stagnate. And this is worrying me for SC2, on the esports level. In other words, the less tournaments there are, the more important they become and of course the more prestigious is the winner. As it stands, I couldn't care less if Alive won IPL4, or MKP or MC to be quite honest with you. Why? Because the next tournament is just around the corner or is even starting the very next day!
2. Inviting people to tours instead of letting them earn it. This is a big deal for me. I dont remember the last time that some Brood War was invited to the MSL or OSL? By having invited players, their actual presence is underminded as is the tournament. Wouldnt it be great if MC actually had to qualify for some of these tours rather than receive a very pleasing email, call etc? Wouldnt it be good if he had to go through some of his Korean brethren and then be able attend Dreamhack fair and square? Invites = crap tournament in my eyes.
3. "The faceless Korean". There is no doubt in my eyes that this is actually very slowly killing Western SC2 esports. First of all, what chances does Thorzain, Destiny, etc actually think they have when they enter a tournament with 10+ Korean pros. How demoralising can this be? From the viewers point of view, they WANT to see their stars compete (not necessarily win but COMPETE). Its like the Premier League having roflmatches vs the Swedish football league (no offense to Swedes!). A guy who just practices in his room cannot compete with the infrastructure, training and support that a gaming-house professional receives. Period.
It makes no sense and doesnt accomplish anything apart from handed out prize money and happy organisers/ sponsors who are out for a quick buck, who capitalise on the sudden interest in MC, MKP, NesTea but are not interested in preserving that interest. If they did, they would realise that this has got to stop or there will be nobody left watching. Why bother hosting a GSL-in-disguise anyway.
4. There is no doubt that LoL and the forthcoming Diablo 3 are eating away at SC2. In combination with quite a few imbalances that the game has, people are surely getting disinterested in the game.
We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful".
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor.
On April 21 2012 09:26 phiinix wrote: We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful".
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor.
Definitely not more accepted, Korean parents practically disown their kid if they say "I want to be a progamer"
and for every successful progamer there are b-teamers that throw away their youth, education and prospect with nothing to show for it, not even making a salary
On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
Haha I wanted to say something similar. I think SC2 is entertaining to watch, just not anywhere near as entertaining as BW. I like watching BW players in SC2 generally because they had a lot more history from the very beginning. In SC2 it is a lot more important for me to know the player to enjoy the game because I don't find the battles as entertaining. However I will say I find SC2 strategies and subtle movements just as intriguing.
On April 21 2012 09:26 phiinix wrote: We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful".
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor.
Definitely not more accepted, Korean parents practically disown their kid if they say "I want to be a progamer"
and for every successful progamer there are b-teamers that throw away their youth, education and prospect with nothing to show for it, not even making a salary
I agree that it's not more accepted by korean parents, but I think it's more accepted by the youth and seen as a realistic possibility to them so there will be (and already are obviously) more young korean amateurs who take the game very seriously trying to become progamers.
I follow the sc2 scene from a distance. I was familiar with every korean at this tournament. Coming from bw, I don't care if koreans are better. I kinda expect it, and I'm used to liking those guys, I'm used to low level of interaction. And in sc2, interaction is actually possible with koreans. Does sc2 really needs a east vs west story ? If so, that's pretty ridiculous. Maybe if some casters and even, in my opinion, some writers here on tl did not have that pretty annoying pro-foreigner bias, people might get interested in those "faceless koreans". They are not inherently less interesting than western people. Yeah I know, people like to root for the underdogs, people like to root for people from their country, blablabla. You don't need that to cheer for someone. You just need to get to know them somehow.
And if westerners rise to the korean challenge, that's perfect with me. But I wouldn't bet on it, as it only seem to get worse with time, and the gap used to be narrower at some points in bw. Exactly because korean team seem care more about being good at the game rather than promotion. Yeah, that's probably what you're complaining about, but then again, on short term it's probably the most rationnal attitude for foreign team.
On April 21 2012 09:26 phiinix wrote: We can invest in more qualifiers, but I don't think that automatically translates to "new blood", 2nd generation foreigners, or whatever you want to call it.
Fact: there is no gene that makes someone good at starcraft. The scene isn't dominated by people who were born with 6 fingers which gives them an edge in playing the game.People also (imo) aren't born good at sc2. I don't think Flash was gifted with sc skills; I think he practices extremely hard and thinks about the game and is subsequently rewarded for it. That being said, if we're seriously looking at why there are more new koreans as opposed to foreigners, I think it is much more cultural rather than this "foreigners are just lazy and awful".
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel like sc is much more of an acceptable career choice in Korea than it is here. Compare mid tier/ potentially good pros (qxc and spanishiwa come to mind) to the koreans and it seems like one group goes to college and the other doesn't. People like Squirtle, Alive, Keen, Taeja, Jjakji, are all 17-19 years old. All of them can sustain livings off of sc2, so why does one group have a "back up" and the other doesn't? It's simply not a norm, and not accepted by many in the foreign scene to play video games for a living. It's so incredibly hard to do something like sc2 comfortably if your parents aren't supportive and that kind of thing can take the heart out of a competitor.
You shouldn't say something is a fact without stating evidence. Although it does not directly mean SC2, IQ has been found to have a genetic component, but across people in general, not races. But I believe that the reason why the 2nd generation is not rising, is because the people most suited for SC2 don't even know about the game or don't even consider it. Korea is pretty small, I would be almost everyone knows about SC2 and many have tried it in a PC bang. Look at america on the other hand. I believe people went around Los Vegas during IPL4 and asked people what starcraft was and they thought it was a brand of boat. I honestly think the people who would love starcraft, and be good at the game, but they go their entire lives without knowing about it.
Also in terms of career, for every 17 year old prodigy, there are like 10 B teamers who don't make money who have thrown away everything to try and be a progamer. Progaming is more of a recognized occupation in Korea, (not necessarily more accepted by your family and peers) compared to the US where it is not accepted by family, friends, and the culture.
I feel this is something that will eventually weed itself out, right now sure maybe a bunch of "nameless" players are there crushing tournaments etc, but how long can new nameless people come along for?
Eventually, the nameless players who deserve face, recognition and fans will get them, and those who were one hit wonders, not top tier etc, will not.
Boxer didnt come along with 1 million fans ^_^
Once they've made a name for themselves, and those players have their fan base, are getting the funding needed to attend etc, it wont be an issue at all.
What you call stunting SC2's growth, i call the calm before the storm, i truely believe its the lull before a growth spurt. The old generation of bw gamers couldnt last forever, this is just the transition period IMO.
I just don't think there's as many foreign players who can compete because they don't have the same environment. There is no other scene like Korea anywhere else. The countless cyber cafes, the pro houses, Korea breathes gaming, specifically Starcraft. So naturally it's going to breed more high level players, and they tend to win tournaments by sheer numbers.
Where else in the world can you eat, shit, and sleep Starcraft like Korea?
I tune out of every tournament when there's no foreigners left. It's true, casual fans like myself just aren't interested in the "robots" dominating more tournaments.
I feel like the language barrier is a huge part of this. The Koreans that speak decent English and present themselves in an entertaining way (through interviews, streaming, etc.) are some of the most popular - DongRaeGu and MC for example. People cheer for the foreigners on teams like EG and Liquid because even if they're underdogs, they're underdogs the fans can relate to.
Alive and Squirtle, despite being very skilled players, don't really have any way of motivating people to cheer for them. Unless you have a period of absolute dominance like MVP, Nestea, or MMA, it's hard to build up a foreigner fanbase on results alone.
Kind of unfair for Squirtle or aLive or any of the "faceless" Koreans to be honest... Now that they've showcased their talents, maybe it's about time they get a "face" and be known?
If Squirtle and aLive played under HuK's and ThorZaiN's ID and be hidden from the crowd, they would get all the attention out there for sure.
I stated this same thing in a blog post that got closed. It was a Blog post...(MY OWN THOUGHTS NOT FACT) it may have been whiney but I was pissed. Thus it was in blogs.
Marine King was wiping up all my favorite players and he really really rubs me the wrong way. I don't enjoy watching him I don't enjoy watching him win and I definitely don't think he's a sportsman at all as I stated with reference to the parting issue and his Iron Squid run in with boxer where he screwed an obvious loss into a draw vs. boxer then swept him up.
It's true you can't expect your favorites to pull through but when a player you absolutely despise (not in a good way) keeps wiping the floor with your picks it sucks. With that said I did get a lot of enjoyment watching him get taken out by Alive and then Squirtle. That was my highlight to the tournament and a certain justice was served for parting and all of startale. Yes I know "Blame blizzard" but no I wont I blame the player that knew he was dead.
Startale was robbed, squirtle took revenge and justice was served that was the highlight for me. I didn't care who won in the end because they both knocked out MKP but I think squirtle deserved it more so I feel it would have been more epic for Squirtle the underdog and the avenger of Startale to win the tournament would have left a lasting effect on me personally.
i consider myself to be a hardcore fan. I play almost every day. I watch every event I can. Every evening after work I watch NASL/MC/ ect. But I almost never watch GSL.
Frankly I couldnt agree more. I like high quality games... to a certain extent. I like watching big matches between marineking and DRG because of the history there. I enjoy characters like MC and high level games.That said, I lose interest in events quickly when the top 15 are korean, even if they do have the star power listed above. The best storyline I enjoy is watching my favorite foreign pro's going on big runs and matching some korean players, even if it doesnt last.
Its strange, but I would rather watch a group of foreigners get smashed by a korean, but have one decent series by one player (win or loss) than watch 5 strong koreans play good games. I just cant really find joy in those. So while IPL was a fantastic tournament, I more or less lost interest after day 2 when the top 30 were koreans and all that was left was korean matches for the rest of the tourny.
I can only imagine that this standpoint is more exagerated among more casual fans. I still believe koreans should be present at tournaments, but I think they should limit the number who can compete in pools. Open brackets are fine, and any number of them can compete. But in pool play they need to make it so koreans (who live in korea) can only qualify in the korean qualifiers. They cant just log in and rape the NA and Euro qualifiers and have all the winners be korean. Make the qualifiers based on their actual location, and I think this would alleviate a large portion of the problem.
I think the foreigner problem stems a lot from ladder. Watch any top korean pro stream, and they play other top koreans ALL day at the click of a button with no lag. They'll face pro's like Nestea, Creator, HerO etc all day, everyday for probably 8+ hours a day mixed in with a little team practice.
Now look at EGIdrA. I have no idea how he faces SO many no-name, absolutely terribly, non pro players even if he is rank 1 GM on NA. The koreans never get this, but IdrA faces bad players on ladder for 50% of his practice, the rest being against bad NA pro's.
So until the technology is there to not have cross-server lag (if it is, excuse me, blame blizzard for not implementing it asap), I don't think foreigners will EVER reach the Koreans in skill-consistency (thus less big foreigners like IdrA winning tournaments that would appeal to the casual player base). I don't even think it's an effort problem.. some foreigners practice just as much as koreans but again they are playing TERRIBLE players on ladder all day (or terrible teammates that play terrible players on ladder all day, etc).
To truely have world-wide SC2 equality, there need to be an undisputed best (ie Code A / Code S level) environment (ie Super Awesome Cross Server GM League) where top foreigner pro's -that dont live in korea such as idra- can play against the BEST koreans all day. Or all the pros just need to move to korea, which obviously has not happened.. but when they do they become just as good as Koreans (see Naniwa, HuK, etc)
TLDR: Korean ladder is GODLY. You play ladder a lot no matter who you are, and the koreans are playing Code S level players ALL day. NA / EU though? they play no-names all day and will always suck (most of the time). Thus, we will have "boring" koreans being the best until said Super-Cross-Server-GM-League(TM) is created.
I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
EDIT:
I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world.
The finals were pretty late here in the east coast and I still was entertained enough to stay up; I was thrilled about the finals because I was pulling for squirtle and his somewhat cinderella run. The finals were pretty exciting to be honest. Watching the stream at home, it seemed like the place erupted when squirtle brought it to the second bo5. Would it been more exciting if a foreigner was in the finals? probably. But that's like all sports really. The underdog and players that people can relate to generate a lot of the cheers.
And as for the rest of your blog, I don't understand why the OP says that TSL3 is the only true open tournament. Formats like TSL3 and GSL are somewhat similar to other tournaments. The open bracket is like a qualifier; comparable to GSL code A qualifiers or TSL qualifiers.
Everything you said it true. However, I don't think this is limited to "casual fans." Like with any sport, fans get excited with certain players and certain teams. I honestly believe there's more value in cultivating a fanbase around people instead of the sport.
its been said before and ill say it again, theres probably too much people at the moment trying to 'make a name' too much content. every week theres another 5 cups on that you are supposed to follow else someone on TL calls you out for not following the scene etc.
it only feels like a few weeks since the last mlg and already we have gone from winter to spring. and yet between that time theres been no real coverage about the fallout of the previous events or detailed run downs of the matches. everything feels like a blur which leads to even worse faceless korean syndrome.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
Wait, so is it bad to be one of those "casual fans" because I root for my foreigner heroes over the "better" player? Jinro or Tyler aren't as good as MKP, (who is), but I'm still rooting for them if they ever face off. Sorry MKP and the "hardcore, I only wanna see good games" people.
So is your blog post lamenting the fact that tournaments don't cater to the "casuals" or that there are casuals to begin with? Oh, and I visit TL every day. I explicitly come here instead of Reddit for my SC2 news because, well, fuck Reddit. But I still cheer for my foreigner heroes and will turn off a stream once my favorite foreigners + MKP, MC, MMA, and Hero are out. I just couldn't care about Alicia v Parting. I'm sorry, I just don't.
And I would really rather not have someone tell me that I'm a lesser fan than other fans because of it. I'm not any less of a football fan because I stop watching the playoffs after Green Bay shits themselves out (like they most always do). I still watch the Super Bowl after all.
That's not necessarily against you Plexa, just some of the people I've read in the thread who took your post as a cue to shit on casuals. We're not all "LoL level" fans. We understand what's going on. I understand the game on a good enough level to be on top of things during casts. I just don't care about games on a "GREAT STARCRAFT" level alone. I need a backstory, a character that I like and can get behind. Sorry, but Koreans very rarely offer that for me.
On April 21 2012 10:10 Zeller wrote: I just don't think there's as many foreign players who can compete because they don't have the same environment. There is no other scene like Korea anywhere else. The countless cyber cafes, the pro houses, Korea breathes gaming, specifically Starcraft. So naturally it's going to breed more high level players, and they tend to win tournaments by sheer numbers.
Where else in the world can you eat, shit, and sleep Starcraft like Korea?
I tune out of every tournament when there's no foreigners left. It's true, casual fans like myself just aren't interested in the "robots" dominating more tournaments.
That would be true...
But the fact is that Koreans kind of depend on foreign money and investment. That's why you see:
a. players leaving their Koreans teams completely (no money). b. Korean teams forming partnerships with foreign teams.
It's no secret that only the top GSL-code S players were making any money whatsoever. Code A was paying an average monthly salary as its top prize. Meanwhile all the B-teamers/ lesser players get paid sweet nothing.
JYP, Hero, Alive, Ganzi, Puma, Rain, Zenio etc etc etc... And there will be more to follow. Why do you think they are leaving anyway?
What makes me really sad is that all the significant people in Esports will be throwing BW under the bus regardless how crappy SC2 is because that is where the money is.
I wonder if the KESPA courage model was correct? Limit the entry of talent and you have a set of players you can brand and invest in. The unsaid part of the story of IEM is the lack of consistency by any of the winners ( ok that's a big assumption... I've just not seen gatored since iem ny)
But I disagree on two points, I think the Blizzard World Championship won't change anything, I know Naniwa's win over both Nestea and MVP caused quite a stir, but I think they were starting to spiral down to their current form, and its highly unlikely we'll see any of them on the finals again.
To me IPL4 was a great tournament tournament-wise (wat) but I didn't get attached to it, I didn't watch the finals, and couldn't seriously care less for any of the players on the finals, there were some glaring things that made it unwatchable at some points like heavily foreign biased casting (STQ. Bomber vs EG. Idra) or really bland casting (HD + PainUser), It really left no taste in my mouth for some odd reason.
But hey, Mint 13 is coming , Ubuntu will have to remove unity at some point.
On April 21 2012 14:24 mrafaeldie12 wrote: This is a great blog Plexa! I enjoyed it a lot
But I disagree on two points, I think the Blizzard World Championship won't change anything, I know Naniwa's win over both Nestea and MVP caused quite a stir, but I think they were starting to spiral down to their current form, and its highly unlikely we'll see any of them on the finals again.
To me IPL4 was a great tournament tournament-wise (wat) but I didn't get attached to it, I didn't watch the finals, and couldn't seriously care less for any of the players on the finals, there were some glaring things that made it unwatchable at some points like heavily foreign biased casting (STQ. Bomber vs EG. Idra) or really bland casting (HD + PainUser), It really left no taste in my mouth for some odd reason.
But hey, Mint 13 is coming , Ubuntu will have to remove unity at some point.
? NesTea showed a great showing at IPL 4, but ended up losing to fatigue moreso then Squirtle. MVP is in the round of 8 in GSL even though his having a lot of health issues. I think it's farfetched to call NesTea and MVP on the verge of washing up.
The finals were great. I follow the GSL pretty fiercely so I knew of Squirtle and Alive. You know, Alive being rated as one of the best TvT'ers in this years first season?
Squirtle has always been a puff of smoke in the GSL, nobody wants to liquibet on him, but sometimes nobody wants to liquibet against him.
On April 21 2012 14:24 mrafaeldie12 wrote: This is a great blog Plexa! I enjoyed it a lot
But I disagree on two points, I think the Blizzard World Championship won't change anything, I know Naniwa's win over both Nestea and MVP caused quite a stir, but I think they were starting to spiral down to their current form, and its highly unlikely we'll see any of them on the finals again.
To me IPL4 was a great tournament tournament-wise (wat) but I didn't get attached to it, I didn't watch the finals, and couldn't seriously care less for any of the players on the finals, there were some glaring things that made it unwatchable at some points like heavily foreign biased casting (STQ. Bomber vs EG. Idra) or really bland casting (HD + PainUser), It really left no taste in my mouth for some odd reason.
But hey, Mint 13 is coming , Ubuntu will have to remove unity at some point.
? NesTea showed a great showing at IPL 4, but ended up losing to fatigue moreso then Squirtle. MVP is in the round of 8 in GSL even though his having a lot of health issues. I think it's farfetched to call NesTea and MVP on the verge of washing up.
The finals were great. I follow the GSL pretty fiercely so I knew of Squirtle and Alive. You know, Alive being rated as one of the best TvT'ers in this years first season?
Squirtle has always been a puff of smoke in the GSL, nobody wants to liquibet on him, but sometimes nobody wants to liquibet against him.
Yes, I know alive is a very good player, but I don't really care for him, for me he is just another Korean Terran (my personal opinion)." moreso then squirtle?" Not sure what you're trying to say there but anyway, its a fact that nestea and MVP are a shadow of their former selves, of course there are a lot of variables involved in this but I can safely say, Nestea and MVP had better times.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world.
Totally agree. Champions are not simply great players. Case in point, Roger Federer. He doesn't just win. He wins with style and acts with class. Every single match, he just brings something different. I mean, Novak is an amazing player. But I always feel he's just "great" and lacking that little oomph.
I love to see foreigners do well its A LOT more exciting then having 8 korean in Ro8... so please foreigners do something exciting, it only needs to be 1 foreigner in the whole tournament doing well and as long as there is, that is a lot more exciting to follow.
I agree the SC2 scene is completely missing the story element of progamers like we saw in GSL 1 with Fruit Dealer. Notice that GSL 1 only had a really good story to it, and probably GSL 2 but that was mostly because of Boxer.
Its not East vs West though that is the solution I think, but you are spot on with the whole notion of 'faceless' progamers. The problem is that the GSL format does not allow for the creation of good stories. I mean, just look how much hype MC/MMA/Boxer/FruitDealer creates? Why, because they have great stories behind them and it gives us a reason to follow them.
I blame GomTV, their ranking system just destroys any chance of an under-dog story, notice that GSL 1 was the only one with an actually good story. The reason? Its obvious, there was no ranking system prior to that, and Cool[fou] was the big underdog, if it was the ranking system we have now, we would never have that story. GSL should just adopt a much more freeflowing ranking system that allows stories to develop.
Hmmm I couldn't agree more! I love Starcraft but I am limited to the amount I watch by the amount I enjoy playing. I did not watch much IPL4 cause I find myself attached to a few players and if they get knocked out early I will just smash on some games instead. But anything that has DeMuslim, Thorzain, or Sjow then I can't help but watch. Crazy thing is I'll sit and watch the whole tournament if they are still in it.
If I could add anything to your thoughts I would say that it also helps that a lot of Korean teams have a B-team if you will. Beside complexity most of the rosters for foreign teams are rather small. EG for example had decent players in StrifeCo and Axslav but they let them go. No teams are helping to foster new talent. I'm not saying you they have to pay them but just the chance to learn from better players could foster in some new talent.
As a white foreigner I resent the assumption that I am automatically a fan of other foreigners. My favorite players are all Korean. How can you call Alive and Squirtle faceless koreans? What fan of SC2 doesnt know who they are?
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
I agree that this can happen, and has happened to some extent with a number of players (MMA, sage, hero and so on). But actually nationality does have something to do with it. Since people have been drilled on "korean invasion" and whatnot for so long the "koreans are coming" storyline is something that people are interested in so in that sense nationality matters. Noname foreigners become overnight sensations when they beat out a few koreans, whereas the converse is not true.
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
Well, DRG became popular because he was an absolute GSTL beast. Not only that he was able to showcase a unique style of ZvT which caught peoples eye (similar to spanishiwa in a sense). I don't think anyone has become famous off of their stream in Korea; the same can't be said for the foreigner scene, though.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
On April 21 2012 15:57 treekiller wrote: As a white foreigner I resent the assumption that I am automatically a fan of other foreigners. My favorite players are all Korean. How can you call Alive and Squirtle faceless koreans? What fan of SC2 doesnt know who they are?
He said that not everyone is gonna think that way and also I think hes considering very casual viewers. I know a few people who watch SC with me and know who some foreigners are but they don't know who Alive or Squirtle are, hell outside of Nestea, MKP, and MC I don't think they know any other koreans. Obviously the HC fans are gonna know these guys but you have to consider the other guys, the guys who help grow esports by rooting for that one or two foreigners they relate to.
Derp. I reread the blog again. Although I agree with you that the "bad" foreign players should constantly be weeded out, but I don't really see where the new talent is going come from (dying player-base) until at least the release of the next expansion.
I agree with all your points but I can't help but beg the question: Aren't you defining "esports" a bit too specifically? Sure if you want average joe that watches halo to cheer then your points are well stated and valid. But didn't wc3, bw, and numerous other games become serious draws for fanship without mainstreaming? Didn't they grow organically to become what they were going to become?
I guess my point is that you are defining a thing by popular widespread appeal and then judging the sc2 scene by failing to meet that definition. Perhaps that definition is correct, I simply think that it is only one way of looking at it.
A very thought provoking article. Thank you Plexa for your perspective on this.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world.
On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
On April 21 2012 05:42 Kraznaya wrote: so this thread is
"marketing is why people are still rooting for incontrol and tyler and idra when they could be rooting for illusion, and marketing for the short term will kill sc2 foreign scene in the long term"
These 3 posts sum up what I would have to say about this topic and why I don't care about competitive SC2 at all since the beta ended. Edit: Oh, and I wouldn't throw in Nony there, because he's actually a legit player.
On April 21 2012 19:07 cascades wrote: How did MKP and DRG become non-faceless ? MC is explainable, but MKP and DRG seems carry over from GSL/GSTL. Genuinely curious.
When MKP first played, he used "BoxeR" as his name. That was enough to get the initial attention. Then he solidified it in an important TvZ series in the GSL 2, he turned over a game with the "debut" of Marine micro.
On April 21 2012 19:07 cascades wrote: How did MKP and DRG become non-faceless ? MC is explainable, but MKP and DRG seems carry over from GSL/GSTL. Genuinely curious.
When MKP first played, he used "BoxeR" as his name. That was enough to get the initial attention. Then he solidified it in an important TvZ series in the GSL 2, he turned over a game with the "debut" of Marine micro.
plus he always got 2nd place, which is remniscent for some as similair to Yellow
Ow yeah, Dragon got famous for streaming alone due to his habit of entertaining the viewers rather then serious ladder, this is however an exception.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I think the reality of it has more to do with player's skill and display of skill than anything else, actually.
I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
I still feel like it has absolutely nothing to do with a player's nationality. When unknown Korean players actually SHOW glimpses of brilliance and perfection in play, they gain a massive following on the foreign scene. MMA was the people's champion and one of the most popular players in the world WAY before he even made it into Code S, let alone won it. So were DRG, HerO, Bomber - and even some players who didn't make it (Sage comes to mind).
I agree that this can happen, and has happened to some extent with a number of players (MMA, sage, hero and so on). But actually nationality does have something to do with it. Since people have been drilled on "korean invasion" and whatnot for so long the "koreans are coming" storyline is something that people are interested in so in that sense nationality matters. Noname foreigners become overnight sensations when they beat out a few koreans, whereas the converse is not true.
In fact if you look at it, at least half the most popular Korean players all became popular before they even qualified for Code A. By all standards, they too should have been "faceless". They didn't give interviews, they didn't travel to foreign events, in fact they didn't show up anywhere except for a couple of GSTL matches. Hell, DRG was becoming popular when he was just a streamer with zero competitive showings (pre-MVP era), based on his play alone. But when they played the game, they showed how good they are, and it just set them apart from every other GSTL player, Code A player, and even the current top players and mvp/NesTea duo that dominated back then.
Well, DRG became popular because he was an absolute GSTL beast. Not only that he was able to showcase a unique style of ZvT which caught peoples eye (similar to spanishiwa in a sense). I don't think anyone has become famous off of their stream in Korea; the same can't be said for the foreigner scene, though.
On the other hand, you have a tremendous number of players who just happen to win games and stick around. It's very much the Squirtle/Lucky archetype. They get results, especially so in foreign events, but they simply don't impress, which is an expectation that people have of their champions, and it's a very reasonable expectation to have. Players can absolutely become popular by playing good and showing off their skill - without ever showing their face on camera or interacting with fans or creating "storylines" or speaking english.
But showing results is absolutely not the same as showing skill, and very few players (Korean or otherwise) have done the latter often enough to become known for it. Those that did have overwhelming support and interest of the foreign scene, and not just on TL forums, but in front of a live crowd at events (MMA at MLG and Blizzcon, HerO at Dreamhack, MKP who got sponsored by fans to travel to an MLG, etc). In fact they continue to be more popular and more known in casual circles than current Code S players even if they struggle and fail to get results for months, and they're very unlikely to fall into obscurity in the foreseeable future.
I can't imagine the same amount of passion and excitement for a Squirtle vs aLive final if it happened anywhere in the world.
You might be right, in fact I'm sure you're right. But I don't think what I'm saying is mutually exclusive to what you've said here
No it's not, in fact I'd like to take back the statement that nationality doesn't matter at all (I was writing that at 4 AM and got a bit carried away ). In retrospect, I have to concede that it's pretty obvious that there are different standards for Korean players and foreign players, especially when it comes to breaking out into the scene.
My point, in a nutshell, was that players (specifically Korean players) that are actually talented and capable of showing off skill in the games they play transcend that kind of foreign popularity bias with relative ease - and, in turn, generate excitement and create very memorable experiences for casual and hardcore fans alike, perhaps even more so than many foreigners would. I don't think many would have complained or showed lack of interest if the MMA vs DRG Blizzard Cup finals happened at IPL4. I would say the majority of fans would leave extremely satisfied with the experience.
The problem right now is that there are very few of these players, while the scene is oversaturated with players that do not possess such qualities and are very far from being "paragons" of SC2, yet they deliver very good results nonetheless. In my eyes, this is what creates the "faceless player" problem much more so than these players being Korean or their lack of presence in media and social circles.
Another related problem IMO is that the game itself can be very harsh and punishing to players who try to play on razor's edge (the way top progamers should be expected to play). The return-on-skill-investment in SC2 appears to be worryingly low right now and conservative play with strategic twists will net better results on average.
Edit: DRG got quite popular by streaming while he was on ProS (he didn't even stream on TL, somebody restreamed his Korean stream). In fact, that and ladder are what led to his first english interview article. Also I remember him being hyped on TL a while before he even joined MVP, and being compared to NesTea or proclaimed better than NesTea by a lot of people. Given that it's not mainstream recognition, but it was still recognition during a period when he was a complete nobody in the pro scene.
If stories behind players is the difference between whether or not sc2 is interesting for them, perhaps they'd be better off watching american 'wrestling'.
Esports is about competition among progamers with skills that differentiate them from amateurs. I think maybe foreigners just want esports (like that of korea) just for the sake of having esports.
Been saying it for ages, people want "SC2 to grow" yet the scene keeps inviting the same 30-40 players to their tournaments. Make everything open, make everyone earn it. That simple. No excuses. If a big name gets knocked out by an unknown player...guess what? That player is probably good...and perhaps that "known" player was overhyped and the unknown will become known.
No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it.
And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though.
As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist.
How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker.
So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves.
Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh.
Reading this makes me sad. Because in some points you are probably right, casuals want to see more foreigners. Which confirms me in my wish to not see eSports/SC2 growing any further (see my last blog: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=328039 ).
It will be interesting to see what happens with the influx of the bw pros later this year, who are undoubtedly skillwise not only in another league, but on another planet. Maybe people who really love the game will still happily attend MLGs/IPLs etc. where every foreigner is eliminated in the first round. But maybe not. In that case there will still be the Korean tournaments.
@zul: What negativity in the LR thread are you refering to exactly?
On April 21 2012 21:21 avilo wrote: Been saying it for ages, people want "SC2 to grow" yet the scene keeps inviting the same 30-40 players to their tournaments. Make everything open, make everyone earn it. That simple. No excuses. If a big name gets knocked out by an unknown player...guess what? That player is probably good...and perhaps that "known" player was overhyped and the unknown will become known.
No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it.
And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though.
As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist.
How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker.
So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves.
Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh.
Interesting thoughts. But I think, while you were talking about some of the issues, you missed one big difference between the Korean scene and the "foreign" scene. Not to beat a dead horse, but Scarlett is a good example of this. Travel times, distances, and costs to get into the GSL for Koreans is a lot less than similar travel expenses for foreign players. They also aren't stuck with visa issues, as they are all in one country. They are a microcosm, with an already decent interest in esports in general. Now, on the foreign side... At IPL4, if Playhem hadn't done their sponsor me tournament, we would never have seen Scarlett. It's not that she isn't a good player (especially considering the equipment she plays with) but that it just would cost too much for her to attend even ONE major foreign event without someone else paying the way. In North America, this means you have to find a way to get to an MLG - which can be expensive to any non-team affiliated player because more likely than not, that means flying and a hotel. MLG doesn't have their events in cheap hotels, either - I went to MLG Orlando, and the only reason I didn't wind up paying ~$700 for just the hotel is because I know where to find cheaper hotels in the general area. And THAT was only possible because I could drive from Northwest Florida - a flight adds on another $400 or so, since I'm not close enough to a "real" hub airport to get a cheap flight. Outside of the established pros... most of the ladder warriors probably can't afford to attend the big tournaments, where teams will absolutely notice you if you make a good run. (Again, like Scarlett.) In Europe, I can't really talk about travel costs and problems - it might be easier in some ways (better rail systems) and harder in others. But for a foreigner to get noticed by the community at large, they have to get into a big, well known event - and most don't pay the travel for their contestants. (Kudos to MLG for starting to do this.)
Grr. Typing at work, got distracted in the middle of this (quick, hide the TL page!) but... I think the idea I was aiming at is there.
For me it has nothing to do with the players but with the game itself, it's getting repetitive and boring and i'm sure the viewer count will dramatically decrease until hots comes out.
Koreans were always going to overtake everyone else. People knew this from day one. It was just a matter of time before it happened. SC2 might be a little more sporadic, but the consistent results of Koreans winning isn't because there's not enough talent being shown in the foreign scene, it's just that they're better.
This reminds me of the old "final edits" articles on tl. Have those just stopped being written (rplaced with featured blogs?) because if not this deserves to be one. I love reading well thought out opinion pieces like this, even if i don't neccesarily agree with everything said, seeing a properly formulated argument is nice enough in itself
The "real" sports / competitions usually have a clear distinction between casual, pro-wannabe and pro levels. Not so in SC2. Imagine for a second that a young basketball talents wishing to make it big in Basketball must (1) gather into a 12 men team on their own and (2) go to NBA to fight against Chicago Bulls and Miami Heat and so on. If they don't beat at least a few top level NBA teams they aren't even noticed.
Sounds retarded? Well that's what we have in SC2 at the moment.
You could blame it on "nameless koreans" taking away everything, but as Plexa said , and I agree we should do things more like Code S in one aspect, ruthlessly weed out weaker players and allowing newer ones to come into the scene. But I guess sometimes we're more interested in mindless drama than in better players.
Also, regarding that East vs West thing that's been going on in SC2. I don't enjoy it one bit, it gives "foreigners", whatever that means a chance to blame it on others than to figure out new ways to improve.
People are only nameless when you want them to be so, it takes effort but we could find out more about these "nameless koreans" and really good foreigners who are routinely ignored.
On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote: *My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*
you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.
Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.
Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.
Have a great summer plexa, Love you!
I just want to say that this is 100% on the mark. The leader of E-Sports will not be SCII if Dustin Browder keeps on with his stupid obsession called TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE and destructible rocks. No, the leader will be MOBAs, like it or not, if this trend continues with no LAN support, shitty UI, and a clear divide between the company (Blizzard) and us, the consumers/fans.
You forget to mention one of the main reasons - foreign teams invest their money in "second generation" Koreans and not foreigners. So, for example, instead of Random Foreign Team getting 4 foreign players to a tournament, they get 2 foreigners/2 Koreans. Combined with the other Korean attendees, the foreigners don't get as many chances.
I remember Idra talking about how the EG management doesn't think it's worth it to invest in undeveloped foreigners for some reason and according to them it would be better to focus on the few "stars"... Which might be the best thing for EG (buy the best players > milk them as much as possible for maximum profits > use the money gained to buy the new best players) but it's very bad for the long term future of the scene.
I didn't mind IPL 4 quite frankly, as aLive clearly showed that he was a strong, top-tiered played who deserved to win. Squirtle also demonstrated great play, and his story as someone who made an improbable run from the Open Bracket and the sympathy for Startale following the disconnect in the GSTL did earn him a lot of fans.While aLive did win in the end, Squirte's comeback in the first Bo5 was truly entertaining to watch.
I felt that the "nameless Korean" issue was a bigger problem at IPL 3. Of course, fan favorites MC and Huk were both knocked out in PvPs by an unknown Inori. Lucky, at least for me, was an even bigger spoiler. Even though he beat Boxer, had it not been for a lucky baneling detonation Boxer would have 2-0 him. Seeing Boxer eliminated from the tournament with a roach-ling all in was actually quite sad for me.
Lucky proceeded to take out fan favorites Ret and then MMA. The series with MMA were particularly disappointing. If Lucky had simply outplayed MMA, he could have created an amazing underdog story for himself, and won himself many fans. Instead, he just cheesed 3 games to the finals (MMA should not have played so greedy either and anticipated better, but whatever). Yes, MMA is the world's best TvZ player, and Lucky didn't really have a realistic chance to beat him in 3 straight up games, and cheesing was the best chance for him to advance. But for the viewer perspective (which isn't as important as winning, but still important), it was anticlimatic.
IPL 3 was redeemed in a way because the foreigner Stephano crushed Lucky 4-0 in a ZvZ. People loved the ending, because the foreign hero came through, and crushed the Korean opponent. But what if Stephano had been Korean? The finals would have been a very anti-climatic 4-0 ZvZ stomp between 2 Koreans.
to some extent i think foreigners and koreans alike have failed heavily in the showmanship department and alot of the players lack charisma. alive and squirtle are two shining examples of the extremely bland side of the player spectrum. some players have personality sure (idra, stephano for example) but even they dont seem to realize or want to make the effort to cultivate this further and creating a "stage persona." players should adress this. granted it probably felt silly to do so in the first year of sc2 because the lack of good tournament production. but i think its an important element to creating interesting story lines, dynamic characters. step it up!
On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote: *My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*
you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.
Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.
Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.
Have a great summer plexa, Love you!
I just want to say that this is 100% on the mark. The leader of E-Sports will not be SCII if Dustin Browder keeps on with his stupid obsession called TERRIBLE TERRIBLE DAMAGE and destructible rocks. No, the leader will be MOBAs, like it or not, if this trend continues with no LAN support, shitty UI, and a clear divide between the company (Blizzard) and us, the consumers/fans.
Tbh, I don't think Blizzactivision really cares about SC2. They've already stated how they hate the fact that it brings in no money past the initial sale. In fact, they probably want you to switch over to Diablo 3 and get addicted to farming for their auction house. They'll release the expansions out of obligation, but don't expect things to change.
Agreed, also another problem is that there are just too many damned events.
Look at BW, OSLs and MSLs (RIP) happen extremely rarely, and can really cultivate a story. Look at Stork, I mean, he (and most BW players) are probably not much different personality wise from their SC2 counterparts (yes they do play a different game on 12 different higher levels but we're talking about casual viewers here), yet nobody'd think he's a nameless Korean. If Squirtle and Alive were battling it out on the OSL you can bet people wouldn't view them as "nameless Koreans" anymore. As it stands there are so many events they're starting to overlap with each other, like right now Dreamhack and MLG. I KNOW why GOM needs to have so many tournaments (to support the players who otherwise couldn't support themselves) but still, SKMC, 3 time GSL winner, vs Bisu, 3 time MSL winner. Their achievements don't even compare.
Do I enjoy watching foreigners do well? yes Do I enjoy watching highly competitive starcraft? yes For me I would rather watch the highest level possible and if that means koreans with a few foreigner than so be it. That comes from my highly competitive nature. I would rather watch the best koreans even if it be players who seem boring like squirtle or alive than foreigners who are maybe sub par in comparison.
How do Koreans go from "unknown" to "known" if not playing in tournaments? :| SC2 is still a young game, we are just starting to establish reputations for players.
it shouldnt be on the tournaments to not invite koreans, it should be on the teams to not let their players play xbox games and other casual things asll day
That's the reason I stopped following foreign tournaments. I liked earlier formats where we had 1-4 Koreans and rest foreigners and there still was a chance for few foreign players to shine. As of late, we have dozens of Korean players and half of them aren't even popular among fans and they completely dominate all foreign events, so it got boring.
I am not a nationalist, I am asian myself but it just got boring to see Koreans rape white people.
Interesting thoughts on how koreans and an established, "sub-par" generation of foreign pro-gamers might lead to foreigner stagnation.
As for the "faceless" koreans tho I agree inasmuch as the MLG final felt very lackluster (I did not even watch it), but on the other hand I have come to know various Korean players to the extent that they feel as familiar as (some of the) foreigner players. And, as I have come to know them more, I would consider a final between any of those as more interesting than a final between two unknown (to me) foreign players.
I've started watching competitive sc with Gsl open 1 and i would say i'm one of those casual viewers.
The first thing i was intrigued by ever since i heard about competitive starcraft was the korean dominance or rather south korea as the starcraft mekka. When i talk about sc to other people who have no idea, i tell them about korea and its role in starcraft. I think most people think that this is interesting.
So for me personally koreans being better at sc is a essential part of the whole starcraft experience.
I think the korean dominance isn't hurting esports at all.
I paid for MLG, but I find myself more interested in Dreamhack, solely because of all the little stories.
I don't think we need East vs West specifically, I think we need a story, something to glom onto. This is true in BW as well (See how many SC2 fans watched the last OSL finals because of Legend of the Fall hype. I think one of BW's biggest issues is that it's been "Flash vs Everyone" for so long).
There's no real way to force this kind of drama (except by reading meaning into statistics as appropriate), but an Open Bracket tends to produce them. There are positive stories (Scarlett) and negative stories (Sase controversy in Dreamhack), but now I have a reason to be interested in those two specific players. Open Brackets tend to generate these kind of thing naturally, and I think it's good for the scene.
On April 22 2012 05:02 LesPhoques wrote: That's the reason I stopped following foreign tournaments. I liked earlier formats where we had 1-4 Koreans and rest foreigners and there still was a chance for few foreign players to shine. As of late, we have dozens of Korean players and half of them aren't even popular among fans and they completely dominate all foreign events, so it got boring.
I am not a nationalist, I am asian myself but it just got boring to see Koreans rape white people.
This has nothing to do with race. If Illusion or Select (being of course Asian) won a recent tournament I dont think anybody would say "oh yeah another progamer takes it". These guys are well known in N.A. and with many loyal fans. Lets face it: Alive? Come on...
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
So what to do about it? The solution would be to invite less koreans I guess. Or, as Puma says, the foreigners just practicing more so they can close the skill gap.
If we have a tournament with few foreigners there might occur the problem that less people watch it because they do not like the lower level of play once a foreigner is involved. I myself will not watch random foreigners playing. To do such I could just tune in to one random small tourney that is running.
In the end we might just as well say the koreans are better than non koreans...
I agree with most of the points made. Also I think SC2 would benefit from a really dominant presence. A Flash, a Jaedong, or something of the like. Look at Golf for example, it only gets exposure to casuals when Tiger is in it and winning it because he's been such a dominating presence in the game for so many years. Sure the hardcores like seeing the Bubba Watson's of the world winning, but the casuals wanna see Tiger dominate. I think the existence of one dominant player over a long period of time would help as well. (This additionally takes away from the "Faceless Koreans" effect, as it's not faceless koreans, but OMFGIT'SFLASH-type koreans.)
Your point about no foreigners= casual viewers stop watching is completely true. I'm even like that, if it's just going to be two Koreans duking it out in the finals I don't watch. That's just me, I want to be involved with it somehow. I even left MLG Anaheim a day early to save on hotel costs because it was going to be a day full of Korean games.
Basically we need longer, more consistently-scheduled tournaments. These random 3 day events are bad for the scene in the long-term. GSL is the only thing we have and even that has some format issues. I think day9 has said it before on SOTG; we need more tournaments like OSL and MSL where we can get to know each individual player. This would solve the "faceless Korean" problem because they're no longer anonymous to us. I have no fucking idea what style 85% of the Koreans play because I don't see them on a regular basis that allows them to prepare for matches. Nobody knows how the hell squirtle plays or bbongbbong plays coz we dont see them enough.
Another thing that plexa didn't bring up was the releasing of replays. Think about it: Koreans don't release replays whatsoever. Foreigners do. This results in people who cannot or do not want to follow the GSL completely unaware of the korean players that are out there which leads to me not really caring about them in any way because I simply do not know ANYTHING about them. On the other hand, foreigners DO release replays. Most of them at least. And that leads to them having a good fanbase that will tune in just to see them. The same applies for live streaming. The problem with releasing replays and building a fanbase however is that it makes players vulnerable. People can analyze them. And thats another huge part of the problem. In fact the main problem. While foreign players simply have more interest in getting fans behind them the korean players watch their replays and tear them apart. And what this leads to is organizers having to invite popular foreigners and good koreans to get their tournament some sort of respectable gameplay and actual vievers. I have no idea how this problem could be solved but I think if korean players sent more replays to commentators they could get HUGE fanbases (nooooo there's no such person has LiquidHerO who sent replays to husky and is loved etc...) so the nationality of the players would not matter that mutch anymore (dont get me wrong though I will always cheer for Socke and Goody. Goody mostly because of his bio-refusal. He's awesome.)
On April 22 2012 09:27 TotalNightmare wrote: I have no idea how this problem could be solved but I think if korean players sent more replays to commentators they could get HUGE fanbases (nooooo there's no such person has LiquidHerO who sent replays to husky and is loved etc...)
Never going to happen. There is no reason for a korean to be showing replays to anyone besides people on their team
Very interesting and very true article. I stopped watching IPL4 when Stephano lost, and no, I am by no means a casual. I play sc2 quite a bit, watching it almost everyday. If there's no tournament, ill turn on a stream; if there are no interesting streams, ill read TL and Reddit. Yet even as a hardcore fan, I found it quite boring when there are 5 koreans left in the tournament, and even more so when Alive and Squirtle are in the Grand finals.
I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that these two are just not very stylistic in terms of play. I know who they are, I know what they've accomplished, and I know they are pretty damn good. However, the lack of story is what turned me off. There is no storyline between the two, and no history to speak of.
For example, I used to ignore polt like everyone else, because he, like many other korean terrans, lacks a personality that stands out. Yet when the rivalry between his and stephano started to brew, i started to follow him more and more.
In Esports, storyline is sometimes more important than prize money and great games for the fans.
It is very difficult for new players to break into the scene as the ‘faceless Korean’ invasion into foreign tournaments creates an enormous barrier to entry for them. Even if they enter, it is highly likely they won’t make it far because they will run into a Korean and lose. As such, the ‘second generation’ of foreign progamers never came about and all the fame, glory and money is tied up with the first generation. Indeed, some of these first generation pros are no longer remotely good at this game. Use your imagination as to whom I’m talking about.
Great post Plexa!
I would also suggest a contributing factor is that most tournament formats are incredibly cruel towards up and comers. MLG's in general puts a huge handicap on those not in pool play and their end of season championship was atrocious. These players need a boost if anything and they wind up at a massive handicap towards players who already have more than them (money, fame, support). Faceless Koreans not only make this worse (the qualifiers become more treacherous) but since they are skilled enough to brave the gauntlet with fortune on their side, it hides how truly difficult it is.
Tournaments have also done a shit-poor job at introducing us to players. Players known for their personalities demonstrate it themselves, even the Korean ones. Throughout all of IPL4, the only time alive was asked anything other than "are you confident for your next match?" was when Nestea (ever the boss) jokingly accused him of poisoning his ramen. Tournaments should realize Nestea is a little too busy being one of the best Zergs in the world and maintaining the fabric of space/time, so hire someone capable making the stage interesting between games.
i never understood why tournaments have to have a open bracket. just do country/region tournaments online and with that you also help teams and players out who payed 2k to fly over and not even get on stage to represent them self. with that you would also get a fixed number of seeds.
i would rather watch a foreigner getting smashed by a korean then a korean getting smashed by korean. and the argument that kr vs kr matches are better does not work here because the format doesn't allows it you can't compare a gsl match with lots of preparation to a 3day tournament were you play 20 games.
in the gsl you can showcase how good and prepared you are and in foreigner tournaments you show how solid you are.
whatever i don't see it change anytime soon so fuck it.
The later half of the argument seems to stem from a view that equality > freedom. As in the equality of players should come before the freedom of all players to play in qualifiers. I have believed in freedom > equality my entire life. And as such I completely disagree with this stance.
Esports is a business, and yes a business has to be sustainable I.e. pleasing fans. But whenever i hear tournament organizers or team execs talking its always about more money towards the players, more fame for the players, more everything for the actual players. Gating qualifiers takes away the freedom of esports, you are taking away livelihood from koreans and giving it to foreigners. This is good for the business of Esports but contradicts what I've heard countless times in interviews with the higher ups of players first. Is it needed? debatable. is it just? i dont think so. Because freedom is always superior to equality
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote: BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
It's not b4's fault that hes a lot funnier than alive :<
For example, I used to ignore polt like everyone else, because he, like many other korean terrans, lacks a personality that stands out. Yet when the rivalry between his and stephano started to brew, i started to follow him more and more.
Polt has an amazing personality that's easily detectable in his English interviews; it's just that no one knew about it
On April 21 2012 04:01 LunaSea wrote: Ouaou, such a hate bandwagon against IPL ! Hot news guys : Team Liquid bought by MLG ! (I can't figure another reason than this ...) I'm sure that the OP is the kind of guys that "plays as the marine" like Sundance or loves the "ZvG" matchup. I didn't play Brood War nor followed any eSports before Starcraft 2 but I would prefer to have a small but dedicated community than a 100 million casuals that care more about nationality than skill level.
AHAH thanks for the laugh !
On topic : I put a lot of quotes in spoilers. Some more interesting than others but here's what i think about all of this so far :
On April 21 2012 05:44 Jumperer wrote: This wouldn't be a problem at all if sc2 was entertaining to watch.
On April 21 2012 11:11 Talin wrote: I would say that in the 99% of all Starcraft 2 pro games ever played, the winner simply does not impress - he does not have a very good showing, and the kind of play that can really blow people's minds seems to happen only several times a year if we're being honest. The consequence is that it's extremely difficult for great players to express themselves and show who they are and what exactly are they good at by playing the game - which, in turn, causes people who watch the game to cling to players that stand out in some other way.
On April 21 2012 05:59 Chiharu Harukaze wrote: When I watched the SKT v KT Proleague Grand Finals, it wasn't just a Bo7 match. It was a clash of two storied histories. A massive grudge between two fan bases coming to a head.
When Fantasy stepped up to Flash, it wasn't just a TvT. It was a culmination of years of jockeying for throne of Terran. It was the evolution of the Bo8 from two years ago when Flash and Fantasy had to face each other in WCG and MSL elimination on the same day.
And when Bisu walked up to face Flash, it wasn't a PvT. It was a culmination of the collective hopes and dreams of each team into the arena. We know who they were. We knew what they stood for. The match was more than just Starcraft. There was a massive context that created emotion and meaning.
I don't feel that watching SC2. I know who Ssak was and his story behind his Valk victory over Flash and his crushing defeat by ggaemo. I know about By.Sun. Or the aggressive TurN, and how Action picked himself up. I don't know how Squirtle is or why I should care about him. I've only heard of Illusion in passing and know litle else. If you're good, you should be able to rise and get shown the spotlight. We talk about the Royal Road in the OSL and there's massive scrutiny when someone new breaks into the Ro16. I have no clue who is Royal Roading in MLG.
It makes me sad. I don't want just good games. I can get that from watching replays. I want emotion in my games. I want meaning. I want something I can relate to as a fan. I want that connection.
- I think the main interest for the majority of the viewers has little to do with the sport itself, it's more the players or the club they're cheering for. The majority of the viewers ( = casuals ) have little interest in the details and are more interested in what they see on the screen / the personalities. If every SC2 game would swing around like flash vs bisu in the proleague finals, the viewing experience would be better. If startale and IM had the stories SKT and KT have, the games would be different ( although that isn't really a good example since the only real somewhat famous team league in SC2 is the GSTL and it's not half as popular as the GSL unlike proleague / osl )
On April 21 2012 07:11 Chef wrote: Even if it's just MLG, IPL, Dreamhack, NASL, and however many Codes of GSL there are, you pretty much have to make a career out of being a viewer to follow it all and thinned out the best players across too many tournaments.
- I feel like the SC2 scene is overall very scattered, there's always something to watch, sure but what to watch ? BW only had Proleague ( team league ) OSL and MSL. I don't know how many online tournaments there are, but i've seen a couple of afreeca restreams, including one in which savior played, but BW will always be OSL MSL PROLEAGUE, in the foreign scene you have all the GO4SC2s and playhems plus the ZOTAC and everything, and then there's this huge amount of actual big names like dreamhack IPL MLG + GSL GSTL. I think it'd be better if we had less events but bigger ones. ( that has nothing to do with GO4SC2 / ZOTAC / Playhem, i used them merely to compare those situations )
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote: BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views Alive has 16,000 This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
- This is something that i've seen everywhere in SC2 and in this blog too : people aren't that interested in skill and more in stories / personalities. Seriously take a look at destiny and tell me i'm wrong. It feels to me like the scene doesn't reward those who try really hard and gives waaaaaay too much to those who don't do sh*t
On April 22 2012 09:27 TotalNightmare wrote: Another thing that plexa didn't bring up was the releasing of replays. Think about it: Koreans don't release replays whatsoever. Foreigners do. This results in people who cannot or do not want to follow the GSL completely unaware of the korean players that are out there which leads to me not really caring about them in any way because I simply do not know ANYTHING about them. And thats another huge part of the problem. In fact the main problem. While foreign players simply have more interest in getting fans behind them the korean players watch their replays and tear them apart. And what this leads to is organizers having to invite popular foreigners and good koreans to get their tournament some sort of respectable gameplay and actual viewers.
- This seems like a detail ( and it probably is ) but it goes toward the "foreigner => building up a good image / korean => being good ". Also noteworthy naniwa did complain somewhere about not being able to find a good practice partner that won't leak replays and such.
On April 21 2012 21:21 avilo wrote: Been saying it for ages, people want "SC2 to grow" yet the scene keeps inviting the same 30-40 players to their tournaments. Make everything open, make everyone earn it. That simple. No excuses. If a big name gets knocked out by an unknown player...guess what? That player is probably good...and perhaps that "known" player was overhyped and the unknown will become known.
No tournament right now has the balls to make their tournament 100% open because they want short term "e-sports prosperity" for a few instead of giving everyone, including 100% unknowns/unestablished players a chance to make it.
And no, you cannot say TSL3 was 100% open - it also had many invites. I will give you credit that TSL3 has been the most open tournament to date though.
As for the "koreans killing e-sports thing," I also agree 100% about that and how that makes entry even more difficult for "second gen foreign pros." People already made posts/blogs about this ages ago, how it's utterly stupid to basically hand koreans all foreign money. I believe catz was one of the most outspoken people on the issue, but forum warriors and "e-sports evangelists" simply pitchforked and said everyone was being racist.
How does anyone expect a foreign scene, let alone the entire scene to grow if every single prize purse is basically going to korean players from established korean teams etc. It makes little jonny USA/every foreign team basically say, "wow, fuck sending players to LANs." To get to these big events to "make a name for yourself" is a huge gamble even for the best players due to bracket luck + the mass korean invasion. 400+ dollars for hotel/plane/whatever, you get there, knocked out by a korean and you gain zero exposure, no casted matches, etc...do the math. You would be better off investing that money in online poker.
So yeah, I basically agree but i've said it before and a few other brave souls have about how the scene needs to have open tournaments not this invite bs. Make everyone earn their stay in the scene, and if they are at the cream of the crop then they will re-qualify regardless. Don't just hand it to them and say "fuck you" to the unknown / new players that are looking to make a name for themselves.
Nothing is going to change on this though, I highly doubt it. Because tournaments want that short term viewership boost, they are going to keep giving hand-outs to get exposure/audience for their tournament. Foreign e-sports is an old gentlemen's club right now tbh.
- THIS ! THIS ! Please give more chances to those who deserve it, please try to build something on the LONG TERM, that will ( hopefully, tho i know it won't ) last long, you know like OSL long ? Like over a decade long ? Instead of trying to milk a buisness now and ruin opportunities for the future. I think there are plenty of good or at least decent foreigners who would show their skill if they were given more opportunities. I will agree that things like GO4SC2, playhem and Zotac gives players a chance to be " recognized " and hopefully be picked up by a good team but then what ? Then they have to go through an open bracket that is stacked with really good players, and hopefully they can get noticed before being smashed by a korean.
On April 21 2012 03:34 NB wrote: *My comment is a bit off topic but i just wana add this in*
you might wana check out the current growth of dota2... its 5 times faster than sc2 and once the game is merged into the gigantic chinese market, i dont think sc2 will remains the king of esports like what it is today.
Blizzard has done nothing good for esports. SC2 is a game we are forced to play in 2009 as a starcraft community but it has never been the game we deserved to have after spending more than a decades supporting BW, a game which the whole world except south korea thought was dead. Riot, Valve are doing the right things: LAN support, Free to Play, Gigantic prize pool and a none stop improving, listening their games based on the community feed back. Remember it took blizzard 1 years to implement the chat channel system which existed in 1998? The phoenix lifting bug inside sc2 for 3-4 patches for a period of 4 months? Well it tooks valve 2 weeks to change their entire shop UI in dota2 after beta officially launched.
Blizzard today, is not the blizzard we knew in 1998. With the incoming of some strong titles such as DotA2, CS:go, LoL... it would be a miracle if blizzard could fix their mistakes with the upcoming HoTS. The BNet 0.2 is now officially implemented in Diablo 3 and most likely will stay for HoTS and it is a virus that is killing esports.
Have a great summer plexa, Love you!
- Finally this : if ACTIVISION BLIZZARD cared, if they would try and support the game a bit, if they would give us what we ask for and listen like valve, riot games or hirez studio for instance the game would be better, have a steady growth and possibly last longer. ACTIVISION BLIZZARD would also make more money since THEY do ask for a license for tournaments to play / broadcast starcraft games
On April 22 2012 11:06 beatitudes wrote: The later half of the argument seems to stem from a view that equality > freedom. As in the equality of players should come before the freedom of all players to play in qualifiers. I have believed in freedom > equality my entire life. And as such I completely disagree with this stance.
Esports is a business, and yes a business has to be sustainable I.e. pleasing fans. But whenever i hear tournament organizers or team execs talking its always about more money towards the players, more fame for the players, more everything for the actual players. Gating qualifiers takes away the freedom of esports, you are taking away livelihood from koreans and giving it to foreigners. This is good for the business of Esports but contradicts what I've heard countless times in interviews with the higher ups of players first. Is it needed? debatable. is it just? i dont think so. Because freedom is always superior to equality
Relax, helping the foreign scene develop isn't a step towards socialism.
Think of it like when the US was extremely protectionist during the 19th century in order to allow its own industry to develop (before they became a super power that promotes free trade so that they could profit off of its developed industry ).
On April 22 2012 11:06 beatitudes wrote: The later half of the argument seems to stem from a view that equality > freedom. As in the equality of players should come before the freedom of all players to play in qualifiers. I have believed in freedom > equality my entire life. And as such I completely disagree with this stance.
Esports is a business, and yes a business has to be sustainable I.e. pleasing fans. But whenever i hear tournament organizers or team execs talking its always about more money towards the players, more fame for the players, more everything for the actual players. Gating qualifiers takes away the freedom of esports, you are taking away livelihood from koreans and giving it to foreigners. This is good for the business of Esports but contradicts what I've heard countless times in interviews with the higher ups of players first. Is it needed? debatable. is it just? i dont think so. Because freedom is always superior to equality
Relax, helping the foreign scene develop isn't a step towards socialism.
Think of it like when the US was extremely protectionist during the 19th century in order to allow its own industry to develop (before they became a super power that promotes free trade so that they could profit off of its developed industry ).
^_^ it's just when something is worded like the op, it makes me feel uneasy inside. And im just a normal dood. but thats what i got out of it after i finished the read.
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote: BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
It's not gonna get any better for foreigners as the BW players begin dipping their toes into the SC2 waters. It's tough to just tell the non Koreans to just practice more, but are there any other solutions? For me I don't really care if there are any non koreans left in a tournament(frankly I like the Koreans more anyways), but I guess I can understand the desire for people to cheer for a familiar personality. I don't really think that the koreans being mega gosu and the foreigners being el sucks overall will kill SC2 anyways...
I think the main problem is that massive open brackets create bad events to spectate. They force tournaments to either go with championship brackets or else risk showing crappy games the first one or two games.
I'm sure that as a competitor, massive open brackets are great because it's the fairest way to determine who's the best in the room. The problem is that it sucks to watch crappy games. For example, day 1 of Dreamhack this weekend, ugh. And championship bracket systems make it very difficult for new players to break into the "old boys club", RE: MLG Winter.
Here's what I'd like weekend-long individual tournaments to look like:
32 players. More than 32 and you have too many players to track+cast. Less than 32 and you run the risk of not having enough diversity.
All qualifiers finished at least 2 weeks before the event. This gives tournament organizers time to compile stock footage from the qualifiers for use in the live event. It also gives plenty of time to hype up the event, and to ensure that travel accommodations are accounted for.
8 players invited. These are the top 8 finishers from the previous event. 8 players from broadcasted open online regional qualifier: NA 8 players from broadcasted open online regional qualifier: EU 8 players from broadcasted open online regional qualifier: KR (TW and CN would also qualify through here)
Players must reside in the region in which they attempt to qualify. Citizenship doesn't matter. For example, Naniwa would need to go through KR qualifiers instead of EU. Violet would need to go through NA qualifiers instead of KR. This is a "fairness" adjustment because lets face it, some regions have better training environments than others.
All 32 of these players would be flown in the day before the event actually happens. This gives tournament organizers time to pre-record video interview footage that can be played before each group. It also gives players time to shake off jet lag, which will help improve game quality.
At the live event itself: Day 1: RO32: 8 groups of 4. BO3. Top 2 advance. Each group includes 1 previous event finisher, 1 NA open qualifier, 1 EU open qualifier, and 1 KR open qualifier. Day 2: RO16: 4 groups of 4. BO3. Top 2 advance. Day 3: RO8: Single elimination. BO3. Day 3: RO4: Single elimination. BO5. Day 3: Finals: Single elimination. BO7.
Frankly I believe the first generation of SC2 pros have either gotten bored of the game or really never really liked it. Now, what you get is a phase-out of the first gen, in both scenes, the Korean one and the foreigner one, except that in the Korean one with ladder and competition being higher you get better players. There is absolutely no support for up and comers, I feel that the 2nd generation of SC2 "pros" has been overlooked by the foreigner scene and since they do not get support they will not be able to compete. I believed we failed already, we do not have established team houses, we need way more than what we have, we need more support, we need it to be a viable career, albeit for a short-period of time. There are other games coming that will start eating away at the playerbase of SC2, it will happen with Dota 2, Diablo 3, etc, many players will simply stop playing or forget that they had a small fire inside them that told them to try to be a SC2 pro, instead, they will try it in another game. I fear and I hope I am wrong, that the next SC2 foreign generations won't be able to push through these obstacles and that the Korean scene will remain dominant, tournaments will begin to wade as soon as people being to become more interested in other games. There is a lot of work to be done and HoTs can actually help a lot, but what needs to change is how we support the up and comers.
The player base has already been dwindling and the numbers have peaked for WoL. We're waiting on the expansions to rejuvenate it, but once again the numbers will steadily go down again. It happens with every game.
As for supporting players. It comes down to how you market and promote yourself and there are only a few teams that are over compared to the rest. Even then, that's ridiculously small compared to the BW teams, which doesn't say much and they did it through other means too.
It's what you make of it.
There are a lot of things we can do differently that is for sure.
On April 22 2012 14:02 RoboBob wrote: I think the main problem is that massive open brackets create bad events to spectate. They force tournaments to either go with championship brackets or else risk showing crappy games the first one or two games.
I'm sure that as a competitor, massive open brackets are great because it's the fairest way to determine who's the best in the room. The problem is that it sucks to watch crappy games. For example, day 1 of Dreamhack this weekend, ugh. And championship bracket systems make it very difficult for new players to break into the "old boys club", RE: MLG Winter.
Here's what I'd like weekend-long individual tournaments to look like:
<snip>
I'd rather we didn't have X number of carbon copy tournaments, but I do agree that many current tournament sysytems are an issue. MLG last year was a PRIME example of how to screw it all up.
They DESIGNED a system to keep mostly the same players in every single MLG throughout the year, which is why Incontrol stayed in groups all year, in order to maintain a playerbase which would "attract fans" by letting people see the same players play each time.
That was hialriously broken and stupid. Then IPL kind of did the same by inviting year old players to their new tournament just because they thought it would be a good idea. In this instance (as noted in the IPL4 review/thing) they ended up with two mediocre foreigners in groups, who both got trashed.
There's a balance between getting in the names which attract viewers, and getting in the right people, and both MLG last year and IPL recently have massively screwed it up.
You are right that there needs to be format change, but one blanket format would suck for the viewers as well. You don't see every football (soccer) competition having the same rules, and that's because it gives variety and different ways and opportunities for players to make a mark in some way.
You make a lot of assertions, yet you don't back any of it up with evidence.
"Casual" viewers are only interested in Korean vs Foreigner rivalry What exactly are you basing this on? I know for me, and my friends who watch SC2 we all most excited by the top Korean players. Beyond some anecdotes you don't make a strong argument for this.
SC2 growth is stunted and the reason is because there are too many Koreans If you look at the history of all esports, there is a very clear cycle pattern with respect to the popularity of each individual game. SC2 is following the same consumption pattern as other games that had no Korean presence at all. You present no evidence that backs up your assertion.
League of Legends is doing well because their foreign players put up a fight against asians Back to the historical trends of esports, the popularity of a given competitive game has always correlated to the popularity of the game itself. LoL is a free-to-play game that has literally millions more players than SC2. According to you that has nothing to do with the popularity of the game as an esport and its really just about the west not being dominated by east?
I do agree with you that compelling story lines and personalities improve the product and will help attract viewers. The east-vs-west story line is very easy and convenient (some might say contrived), however those in charge of production should work hard to find interesting story lines for every player instead of limiting Korean participation in an artificial manner. Likewise I agree that western tournaments have an interest in developing western players, but again I don't see how limiting the participation of Koreans helps that at all.
Another thing that plexa didn't bring up was the releasing of replays. Think about it: Koreans don't release replays whatsoever. Foreigners do. This results in people who cannot or do not want to follow the GSL completely unaware of the korean players that are out there which leads to me not really caring about them in any way because I simply do not know ANYTHING about them. On the other hand, foreigners DO release replays. Most of them at least. And that leads to them having a good fanbase that will tune in just to see them. The same applies for live streaming. The problem with releasing replays and building a fanbase however is that it makes players vulnerable. People can analyze them. And thats another huge part of the problem. In fact the main problem. While foreign players simply have more interest in getting fans behind them the korean players watch their replays and tear them apart. And what this leads to is organizers having to invite popular foreigners and good koreans to get their tournament some sort of respectable gameplay and actual vievers. I have no idea how this problem could be solved but I think if korean players sent more replays to commentators they could get HUGE fanbases (nooooo there's no such person has LiquidHerO who sent replays to husky and is loved etc...) so the nationality of the players would not matter that mutch anymore (dont get me wrong though I will always cheer for Socke and Goody. Goody mostly because of his bio-refusal. He's awesome.)
Wouldn't you say anyone who watches replays already knows about the Koreans a decent amount? And plenty of Koreans do stream. Is it really the Koreans fault the casters don't know shit about the Korean scene, knowledge a simple TLPD lookup would enable them to have? Hero isn't only loved because of Husky - TL picked him up is enough.
On 'faceless Koreans' A lot of people seem to be talking about Korean players being 'faceless' but what I took away from your article is your main focus on the foreign scene being so hard to break into, which I'll agree to. But just as a side note before I continue on with that, the Korean players who you say have big fan bases just read as a list of everyone who was good at SC2 during beta/early release. And I think that contributes a ton to why they have fan bases and all, they've been around long enough for storylines to develop around them. They've been through peaks and valleys already. Everyone else has only been in a peak or valley pretty much, but given time you'll have storylines around them. Then give it another 2 years and maybe some of the commentators besides Artosis will actually know the storylines too. DRG is also someone who's been through a lot of low points (taking forever to clear code A).
On commentators That said, I think a lot of the problems with games being boring comes down to commentary. The commentary itself makes games more interesting, because you know maybe player A is 0-10 vs player B, can't win this map/matchup. The commentators right now seem to know less then half the people who follow sc2 and just stay stuff that's wrong half the time as a result. I mean for almost all the Koreans, all a commentator will say is - 'here is another good Korean etc etc'. Let's be real - you'd think the commentators could look up the backstories on the Koreans cause it's not likely anyone else will be in the final rounds. If they don't have the time because they can't work as commentators fulltime, maybe it's time for some of them to quit commentating till there are only good fulltime commentators left. I can imagine commentating is hard but you have like 3 responsibilities - talk all day (hard), actually talk about whats on screen (observers job to focus on important stuff), and know whats going on in the scene.
On getting new talent in the scene As for getting new players involved in the foriegn scene, I don't know whose fault that lies on. It's either 1)teams, 2)tournaments, or 3) the players. You can blame the teams in that they still hang on to players that haven't shown results in more then a year (e.g. Jinro, Tyler, LZGamer/Machine) but then you can argue that if they dropped players after a long slump, gaming would be too unstable for anyone to enter. As for tournaments, is it really their responsibility to actually discover talent? Should they either hold open online qualifers and pay for the winners to go to the tourny, hold offsite qualifiers, or hold onsite qualfiers. IPL had online qualifiers and they paid for the winners but that didn't help, the same people won these qualifiers. If that doesn't work in discovering new talent, what will? Having fucking wizards go around to test youths for sc2 ability?
Which finally leaves the players. Scarlett got known by winning the Playhem tourny to make it. She used her oppurtunities. If someone like Violet won the tourny (if CSL/someone hadn't paid for him to go), nothing would have happened. Illusion got known through winning shit. Thorzain and Kas and Naniwa got known earlier on by winning shit. Snute is making a name for himself by winning shit. Stephano got known by winning. HuK got known by winning. Nerchio got known by winning. (No means comprehensive, just naming players who come to mind). Sure you could say, maybe Scarlett gets unlucky and runs into Korean round one and loses 2x and never is heard from - well if she's so good and dedicated, don't you think she'd come up in more tournaments? And then our great commentators could look up her basic info from TLPD and be like oh shit...well she made it to IPL4 but got knocked out by tough group.
Most of the foriengers who are winning didn't have extraordinary chances compared to other players. They just won enough till people noticed them. You argue there is hidden talent on the ladder but I'd say in response, well then where are they? If they're good enough to take on the current crop of foriegn pro's, why do you see the same names almost always in top 3 of stuff like Playhems? Sure you can say that if they're not on a team they can't practice all day but at some point I'd say a player has to take some major risks and drop other stuff for sc2 if they really want to try and get sponsored. It's the tournaments responsibility to put on a good production but they can't magically make good games happen if they choose either shitty (relatively) local players or good koreans that their commentators won't know anything about. Players like Illusion and Scarlett demonstrate it IS possible to be able to compete with the top players if you practice hard enough, so what's left is for players to step up and join them if they want to become known at SC2.
Maybe I'd argue Playhem EU shouldn't allow non-EU ip addresses but I don't think that changes much, as the people who are winning are mostly already in EU (incl Koreans living in EU but it makes no sense to ban them).
edit: on 2nd thought, it'd be pretty cool if playhem EU/NA were only open to EU/NA. I just looked at the NA winners list and it's all Koreans rofl. As in Koreans living in Korean like Byun. Those could be a way for some players to 'break into the scene'. I mean being forced to compete with A-level Koreans just to get your name out is pretty tough.
On split ladders If anything, I'd say having split ladders hurts a lot more then it helps. Just by the nature of having GM be the top 200 of every league, by having 5 leagues you now have 1000 GM. High masters is now 5x more populated then it would be on a single ladder. These players now compete against only their own ladder, but since the competition is weaker by the nature of split ladders (if you have 1 A-F player, each A player might play people weaker and so play shitty, vs having to play the other 4 A playesr from the other 4 leagues), they don't need to improve as much. If you put the all the GM vs each other, you'd get a new GM league of the best of the best, and now they'd all compete against better players, and so have to improve more as a result. Outside that I'd say it's [b]on the players to step it up. But maybe there just aren't a lot of people who actually want to go pro at sc2. Idk.[/b[
I agree with Mr.Talin its really hard to showcase your "personality" through SC2 gameplay, you have to be either "genius" like MKP or make total gimmick builds like TheBest/BBB. If you look at BW history and biggest characters of BW each of them had distinct feature about their play and it was since times of Giyom. to this day. Iloveoov ? Macro-god, Boxer? Cheese master Micro innovator, etc. Even newer generation made a name for themselfs players like Horang2, Leta, Zero, Soulkey etc etc.
Now remember how many times this Happy marine splitting video was posted on this forum? Thats what people need, every SC2 viewer wants it deep down, to have pimp game with pimpest move, to go ahh or to scream PLAGUE-like, RIBU-like because this is STARCRAFT, when there is goal in football(soccer) everyone screams. How many times we see highlights videos from SC2? Not much and frankly its boring.
Articles saying what we fans or organizers should do better are all beating around the bush. We desperately need "entertainment value" and because SC2 lacks it we have to artificially create it, "terrible terrible damage" was a miss. I dont care about marketing or PR, and i don't want community to build artificial entertainment, the game itself should be good enough to showcase players. Things like PR, interviews should be secondary not primary, thats why i am always sad when such article pops, because indirectly it says that SC2 itself is not enough. So i have to agree with Jumperer.
I'm waiting for Plexa to tell NonY, TLO and Jinro to retire because they are taking the places of newcomers. Sometimes you have to start by showing a good example, and Plexa certainly has more influence on TL lineup than any other who posted here. So why won't that happen ? My take is that it's always easier to point fingers at others than do the right (according to one's own opinion) thing.
Aside from that, promising players are not likely to thrash their future up for a place in a top team. We are trying to force the professionalization of eSports when I think it's too soon. Time will tell but if we don't get more foreign competitive newcomers in a few years, there would be no coming back. Koreans are training to be pro and they aren't paid, their life are miserable by my standards but in the west, a kid cannot bet his life on a game that will have a lifespan of around 15 years max (as shown by the original SC scene) whatis he going to do afterwards if he doesn't succeed ? Well return to poverty like so many Koreans whom you never heard of and were destroyed by the draft system, never had a chance to play a televised game and had no college degree.
This topic is much more complex than it seems but all in all we have to get rid of the past to make room for the present. And so far it isn't happening.
On April 22 2012 18:52 bgx wrote: I agree with Mr.Talin its really hard to showcase your "personality" through SC2 gameplay, you have to be either "genius" like MKP or make total gimmick builds like TheBest/BBB. If you look at BW history and biggest characters of BW each of them had distinct feature about their play and it was since times of Giyom. to this day. Iloveoov ? Macro-god, Boxer? Cheese master Micro innovator, etc. Even newer generation made a name for themselfs players like Horang2, Leta, Zero, Soulkey etc etc.
Now remember how many times this Happy marine splitting video was posted on this forum? Thats what people need, every SC2 viewer wants it deep down, to have pimp game with pimpest move, to go ahh or to scream PLAGUE-like, RIBU-like because this is STARCRAFT, when there is goal in football(soccer) everyone screams. How many times we see highlights videos from SC2? Not much and frankly its boring.
Articles saying what we fans or organizers should do better are all beating around the bush. We desperately need "entertainment value" and because SC2 lacks it we have to artificially create it, "terrible terrible damage" was a miss. I dont care about marketing or PR, and i don't want community to build artificial entertainment, the game itself should be good enough to showcase players. Things like PR, interviews should be secondary not primary, thats why i am always sad when such article pops, because indirectly it says that SC2 itself is not enough. So i have to agree with Jumperer.
Half the hype comes from the game itself being insanely hard. You are excited to see the players compete to push the boundaries in tense moments such as when they're about to score. You never go "O I think I can do exactly what Messi does with a few days of practice".
I'm not saying sc2 has no difficulties, marine vs baneling micro for example is nice on the eyes and not easy to pull off but most of the critical moments involves one player using some kind of micro nullifying ability or just win because they did something easy like phoenix micro/sc2 storm. There is just no competition or insane skills shown in those game changing moments.
Same with BW, the reconmended games is never the one where one player fails something like unit positioning This isn't about one game being harder at every point in the game but for those game changing moments only. Before people say I'm shitting on sc2, BW's ZvZ has the same problem, the micro needed is immense BUT the critical moments is the BO so not a lot of people care for the match up. In other match ups the critical moments e.g dark swarm is insanely hard to pull off so it isn't that difficult to win with style (because you won doing something hard).
Some people would argue that this would kill sales but a lot of people still play sports despite being "bad" so I doubt it will kill sales that much. Unless gaming culture is completely different but if that is the case a true ESPORTS is impossible.
TL;DR : Much easier to create drama when the critical moments are hard to play.
I don't even watch SC2 tourneys anymore since you can't root for anyone besides MKP, Polt, (MC) or DRG. But those have no personality for me, so I couldn't care less about who's winning. And if anyone else makes it into the finals, it's almost always some 'random' other korean with a background like 'Made it to GSL Code A quarter finals 2 times' - Sorry I don't care.
After watching so much sc2 and getting glimpses of korean culture i'll be dead honest, i don't like their culture at all, and even if i went pro enough to win a gsl, i'd be very hesitant to go to korea and compete. Why? because of how the majority of the SC2 pros act coming from korea, all bland and very unintresting. There are like 3 player's personalities that i enjoy from korea and half of them are a bit against the grain of their culture, MC, Genius, MKP. MC and Genius are cocky and confident, its a lovely contrast to everyone else while MKP holds his emotions on his sleeve, making you want him to succeed. Really I want to see player's emotions, like watching Grubby, Dimaga, Naniwa ect.. These guys explode with happiness when they win, it shows they have passion, it shows they're human and those are the people you want to cheer for.
You can take a look at the fighting game scene at a prime player that everyone seems hates, even in his own country, Diago Umehara. Nobody wants to see a machine win everything, and thats exactly what korea comes of to me as, breed machines with their only intrest in "showing a good game". I'll never forget Diago finally falling to pieces in last years EVO, After a hilarious pre game warm up from Poongko (resulting of chugging a whole red bull, whipping his belt off to get comfortable (everyone thought he was about to strip)), he finally the first player to utter destroy Diago in the most convincing fashion complete with a perfect, afterwards saluting the crowd. It's players like Poongko that we watch esports, and sports in general.
I don't want to cheer for a machine, i want to cheer for a human being that shows evidence of hard work and celebrates for all his hard work because it finally paid off. Really makes me miss CS1.6, i'll never forget the screams of victory whenever teams like 3D or SK won back in the day, you could tell they were giving it their all.
Team 3D vs SK at CPL, a bit longer video but really shows how into they get, you can see how disappointed teams get when they lose, all the stress built up for SK when 3D tiesup the series and just the yelling you hear through the entire lan everytime they take a round.
I think scarlett proves that there is a lot of hidden skill on ladder, and I honestly dont think shes the best hidden gem out there either. I agree largely with what you said and would really like to see that 2nd generation come into play.
article hit the nail on the head. This goes for the MLG Arenas, although because those are more of a 'show' then anything.. and the format (as non-true to competition) as it is.. does pose for an interesting story line... overall it does not garner the interest from those outside of the hardcore SC2 fan.
It feels so much like our efforts are sneaking outside of our own control ... (aka to a lot of KR players living outside of EU/NA). Maybe we should consider not worrying about the race or cultural background so much and more about the player and team. The "Main Stream" most certainly will not buy into it... for very long.
On April 22 2012 16:29 BuddhaMonk wrote: League of Legends is doing well because their foreign players put up a fight against asians Back to the historical trends of esports, the popularity of a given competitive game has always correlated to the popularity of the game itself. LoL is a free-to-play game that has literally millions more players than SC2. According to you that has nothing to do with the popularity of the game as an esport and its really just about the west not being dominated by east?
I do agree with you that compelling story lines and personalities improve the product and will help attract viewers. The east-vs-west story line is very easy and convenient (some might say contrived), however those in charge of production should work hard to find interesting story lines for every player instead of limiting Korean participation in an artificial manner. Likewise I agree that western tournaments have an interest in developing western players, but again I don't see how limiting the participation of Koreans helps that at all.
While I agree with this for the most part I want to say that Korea got in a much later in the LoL scene whereas there was already a HUGE non-korean fanbase and the teams as well. Also the Korean LoL scene is so new compared to the foreign scene.
In my opinion though I believe that foreigners are better than Koreans~ maybe it's because the Korean scene took longer to build up I don't know. Also I do believe that foreigners will always go head to head against Koreans in LoL.
On April 22 2012 16:29 BuddhaMonk wrote: League of Legends is doing well because their foreign players put up a fight against asians Back to the historical trends of esports, the popularity of a given competitive game has always correlated to the popularity of the game itself. LoL is a free-to-play game that has literally millions more players than SC2. According to you that has nothing to do with the popularity of the game as an esport and its really just about the west not being dominated by east?
I do agree with you that compelling story lines and personalities improve the product and will help attract viewers. The east-vs-west story line is very easy and convenient (some might say contrived), however those in charge of production should work hard to find interesting story lines for every player instead of limiting Korean participation in an artificial manner. Likewise I agree that western tournaments have an interest in developing western players, but again I don't see how limiting the participation of Koreans helps that at all.
While I agree with this for the most part I want to say that Korea got in a much later in the LoL scene whereas there was already a HUGE non-korean fanbase and the teams as well. Also the Korean LoL scene is so new compared to the foreign scene.
In my opinion though I believe that foreigners are better than Koreans~ maybe it's because the Korean scene took longer to build up I don't know. Also I do believe that foreigners will always go head to head against Koreans in LoL.
Foreigners are better than koreans for the simple fact that korea is vastly outnumbered by the foreigner community in size, big reason they are so good in starcraft is because there is a lot of money invested in it. This correlates to any sport, why the red sox and yankees win the most in baseball, why the USA/former USSR/China gets the most gold medals in the olypmics, because they spend the most money. If you cut the money, the larger population should have the most talent, and that's the foreigner community.
Out of personal curiousity did China not pick up LoL at all? They're the scariest country when it comes to those 5v5 arena games (DotA 1)
I think the best solution is TSL IV. TL.net is uniquely positioned as the hub of foreigner SC2 eSports to be able to:
#1 Transition to qualifier only Tournaments #1a Still have enough prestige to attract the current "big name foreigners" to fight to qualify w/o a free invite
#2 Build storylines for faceless foreigners #2a Have the manpower/talent to cover the faceless foreigners #2b Have the influence to build interest in new faces #2c Have a large enough community that enough will follow the new talent
#3 Symbiotic relationship #3a TL.net's continued growth depends on SC2 doing well in the foreign scene #3b The foreign scene's continued growth depends on them doing well vs Koreans #3bi The hardest workers need money/shit taken off their concerns so they can focus on SC2 #3bii TL.net has the connections to facilitate this, or at least the ability to bring fan/sponsor attn to the hardest workers who show results
Actually QXC made a very similar point in an interview with Apollo a few weeks ago, that the real foreigner hope will be someone who is like 14 or 15 right now ... the old BW foreigner 'pros' are obviously not going to get us there. It's really wasn't that hard to be one of the best foreigners when maybe 200 people were playing BW seriously in North America in 2008; the player pool is so much larger now.
Though speaking of QXC, I think he might actually start winning tournaments once he finishes college, he seems extremely driven
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote: BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
It's not b4's fault that hes a lot funnier than alive :<
Also hasn't BBoongbboongs off the record been out for longer too?
On April 21 2012 08:04 Highways wrote: Agreed, time for the 2nd gen of foreigners to rise.
Well, I'd say that's pretty hard or next to impossible if the big teams (TL/EG/col come to mind) only pick up koreans these days. Maybe I've missed out on some awesome fan interaction but at least to me Puma/JYP/HerO/Zenio/Taeja are as 'faceless' as players like Squirtle, Alive, Maru and most of the others who got named in this thread. The only thing making me relate at least a bit to them are their jerseys and seeing them more regular but that doesn't make me root for them or tune in if they play other players I can't relate too.
I'm a bit concerned about the future of foreign sc2 due to picking up (only) koreans instead of foreigners. Yeah, they will show better or/and more short term results but it kinda kills the fun of the tournaments (at least for me). If I want to see the highest quality of play I'd rather watch GSL where players aren't tired as hell after 3 days and can prepare special stuff. The typical foreign tournament (MLG/IPL/DH) lives on storylines (for me at least) and most koreans (no matter where foreign or korean team) don't really provide much in this regard.
Also it's a bit disturbing to me that koreans on korean teams show more personality/fan interaction than some koreans on foreign teams. MKP/DRG/Polt saying single sentences in broken English shows to me that they care for the foreign audience/fans where as I've never heard a single english sentence from most koreans on foreign teams (only MC comes to mind).
Not sure how long the foreign sc2 scene can sustain huge tournaments like MLG/DH/IPL if this continues.
On April 22 2012 21:33 Wasteweiser wrote: After watching so much sc2 and getting glimpses of korean culture i'll be dead honest, i don't like their culture at all, and even if i went pro enough to win a gsl, i'd be very hesitant to go to korea and compete. Why? because of how the majority of the SC2 pros act coming from korea, all bland and very unintresting. There are like 3 player's personalities that i enjoy from korea and half of them are a bit against the grain of their culture, MC, Genius, MKP. MC and Genius are cocky and confident, its a lovely contrast to everyone else while MKP holds his emotions on his sleeve, making you want him to succeed. Really I want to see player's emotions, like watching Grubby, Dimaga, Naniwa ect.. These guys explode with happiness when they win, it shows they have passion, it shows they're human and those are the people you want to cheer for.
You can take a look at the fighting game scene at a prime player that everyone seems hates, even in his own country, Diago Umehara. Nobody wants to see a machine win everything, and thats exactly what korea comes of to me as, breed machines with their only intrest in "showing a good game". I'll never forget Diago finally falling to pieces in last years EVO, After a hilarious pre game warm up from Poongko (resulting of chugging a whole red bull, whipping his belt off to get comfortable (everyone thought he was about to strip)), he finally the first player to utter destroy Diago in the most convincing fashion complete with a perfect, afterwards saluting the crowd. It's players like Poongko that we watch esports, and sports in general.
I don't want to cheer for a machine, i want to cheer for a human being that shows evidence of hard work and celebrates for all his hard work because it finally paid off. Really makes me miss CS1.6, i'll never forget the screams of victory whenever teams like 3D or SK won back in the day, you could tell they were giving it their all.
Team 3D vs SK at CPL, a bit longer video but really shows how into they get, you can see how disappointed teams get when they lose, all the stress built up for SK when 3D tiesup the series and just the yelling you hear through the entire lan everytime they take a round.
I agree with what you're saying. I wasn't even around until 2010, but just watching the old BW games of Boxer etc gave me exactly what you're describing. That guy is such a rockstar, without him there would be no esports in Korea. I rarely get that feeling in SC2. There has been too much macro terran domination for me.
I'm not sure if I'd blame it on the korean culture per se, Koreans aren't that boring once you get to know them. They play boring because safe play is boring, and safe play often win you games, get you money and it's completely fair. I think you could do without that assumption. Their culture do have its own problems, but watching SC2 doesn't make you an expert on it.
Besides, the korean commentators are leagues above that of their foreign peers, precisely because they bring so much excitement compared to your "Well the game is over at this point" style of many non-korean casters. That fact contradict your allegation.
Dreamhack, now it's Thorzain vs Monster and if he advances vs Polt, who will everyone root for? Thorzain, beccause he's the last foreigner on the tournament and because he's in Swedish in Sweden! But really shows what the OP was saying.
I don't wanna throw it all on them or anything, but I feel like most casters could do a better job making a story/connection with these korean players :>
When someone says the korean players lack history what does that mean exactly? Explain how a foreign player like ret or thorzain has history you mean like the caster saying a few lines on how they lost against some player a year ago or something like that? I guess I have never cared a lot about history of a player its more what did you do for me lately. Im a foreigner and I generally always always want the koreans to win I could care less if the player speaks english or not I want the most skilled player to win regardless of foreigner or not.
I agree completely. I feel less and less excited about the players at recent events (unless Stephano has made it to the final). Foreigners are really struggling. This recent talk of BW pro's switching to SC2 could change things if they do well.
i support Plexa's idea of having more open spots that allows anyone to compete for them, and paid ticket to the big event after they win a open spot. However, I in no way support limiting competition base on race, let the best player take these open spots.
I, for one, was glad to see Alive in the finals, and glad to see he was playing against a highly skilled terran killer like Squirtle. I thoroughly enjoyed that finals, despite the fact that the tournament format made it almost unwinnable for Squirtle. Faceless Koreans my ass. Those guys are known players and top tier, Code S level players. Fucking insulting...
Though I agree with what Plexa is saying. I do think plexa falsely locates the problem. The problem isn't the Koreans. or the overwhelming # of koreans, it has to do with Foreign infrastructure to produce SC2 superstars. The # of koreans in tournaments isn't the problem. it's the # of GOOD koreans that's destroying foreigners. Though Plexa mentions Scarlett (I still think her story line is still far too young, and early to determine any actual skill (as opposed t fluke)), I think a much stronger mention would be Stephano, though he seems to group stephano in the "first gen" sc2 players, I think he's the beginning of second generation of sc2 players. The generation of "good foreigners" is too reliant on "talent". All the 'breakthrough' foreigner sc2 players (those able to compete with koreans) often come out of nowhere. As opposed to "faceless" koreans who have had strong training from a team, and were built and tailored to win.
Also, can't wait for QXC to be finished with college. He's one of the very few players that seem to scientifically try and experiment out builds and timings, rather than just "feeling" them through. During his time during summer, when he was able to train seriously, and was able to all kill IM.
On April 22 2012 19:21 Otolia wrote: I'm waiting for Plexa to tell NonY, TLO and Jinro to retire because they are taking the places of newcomers. Sometimes you have to start by showing a good example, and Plexa certainly has more influence on TL lineup than any other who posted here. So why won't that happen ? My take is that it's always easier to point fingers at others than do the right (according to one's own opinion) thing.
Aside from that, promising players are not likely to thrash their future up for a place in a top team. We are trying to force the professionalization of eSports when I think it's too soon. Time will tell but if we don't get more foreign competitive newcomers in a few years, there would be no coming back. Koreans are training to be pro and they aren't paid, their life are miserable by my standards but in the west, a kid cannot bet his life on a game that will have a lifespan of around 15 years max (as shown by the original SC scene) whatis he going to do afterwards if he doesn't succeed ? Well return to poverty like so many Koreans whom you never heard of and were destroyed by the draft system, never had a chance to play a televised game and had no college degree.
This topic is much more complex than it seems but all in all we have to get rid of the past to make room for the present. And so far it isn't happening.
I can assure you that Plexa was as disappointed as everyone else when Tyler wasn't practicing and being as good as he should have been.
On April 23 2012 05:11 Barrin wrote: I don't wanna throw it all on them or anything, but I feel like most casters could do a better job making a story/connection with these korean players :>
Moletrap is perhaps the only one who made an effort to dig up information about the GSL players. Even though the almighty Artosis is always "catching up on watching the VODs", I have the feeling he does not make the extra effort to inform himself of the lesser known players. I hope Khaldor (hope you read this!) will show us the light on how to come extra prepared into a casting show.
On April 23 2012 10:25 FXOBoSs wrote: Very nice post plexa. It actually highlights many of the reasons I have made certain decisions.
Explain what those certain decisions are?
I'd prefer not to be stabbed with pitch forks today. Perhaps some other time.
I foresee people getting more angry at you for mentioning it then not explaining... I think it'd have been best to not tease people like that
I don't. But an example of a decision would be to focus on our korean team ahead of foreign players. Because financially the ones you will get a big return out of will cost too much and won't win anything. Korean market is just better because its skill based not PR spinning crap.
Take the NBA, the biggest hyped players, are the best players. In SC2 its like completely opposite. The most hyped players, don't really win anything. Or have won something, but won't win again.
On April 22 2012 21:33 Wasteweiser wrote: After watching so much sc2 and getting glimpses of korean culture i'll be dead honest, i don't like their culture at all, and even if i went pro enough to win a gsl, i'd be very hesitant to go to korea and compete. Why? because of how the majority of the SC2 pros act coming from korea, all bland and very unintresting. There are like 3 player's personalities that i enjoy from korea and half of them are a bit against the grain of their culture, MC, Genius, MKP. MC and Genius are cocky and confident, its a lovely contrast to everyone else while MKP holds his emotions on his sleeve, making you want him to succeed. Really I want to see player's emotions, like watching Grubby, Dimaga, Naniwa ect.. These guys explode with happiness when they win, it shows they have passion, it shows they're human and those are the people you want to cheer for.
It doesn't sound like you have watched much of the Korean scene at all if those are the only personalities you find interesting. If anything DRG is much more cocky than Genius and managed to back it up more often, in the last interviews from Genius he was the opposite of cocky. And if your looking for a player who shows his emotions, what about HerO? Even in victory he sometimes looks like he is on the verge of breaking down, and often posts heartfelt messages to his fans in his fan club referring to us as his 'brothers and sisters' asking us to cheer for him whether he wins or loses. I even find Curious interesting for the complete opposite reason, as Wolf always mentions, that he tries to take all emotion out of the equation when he is in the booth, making him look like a stone cold killer.
There are plenty of interesting personalities in Korea, but you wont be likely to find out about them unless you actively follow their matches and their background stories.
Rivalries make a big part of (e)-sports. Rivalries between players themselves and also between teams. These rivalries does take time to 'brew' and SC2 is still very young.
When 2 relatively unknown players dish it out in a grand finals, it does make it very boring. (Think Hydra vs Great). Both players weren't that flashy plus it was ZvZ. The commentators tried to put a shitload of effort into initiating as much hype as possible (How Shark described the larva resource mechanics).
Alot of marketing is truly required, things such as TV ads on drinks/food/IT products create hype. Think of Stork and Samsung, Flash and KT/Pocari sweat. People out there that aren't all that interested in SC2 need to see those players faces EVERYWHERE. That's how the message gets across. There is simply little to no advertisement of players in my books, please show me if there is.
Not only on ads, but also on random TV shows and interviews also build up reputation and acknowledgement of players out there. Fomos/DES/OGN provide a good basis in helping these players get their name out there.
Last but not least, another issue I find is the skill deviation in SC2 between players. Yet also correlated to the fact that SC2 is very young still, the skill difference isn't overly huge IMO. In BW you can clearly (I mean very clearly) see differences in decision making/macro/micro between the top tier players and the lower tier players where I have failed to observe in SC2. This maybe just me being biased towards SC:BW, but again, I'm just voicing my opinion so don't quote me on it.
I mean... I think this is something we all knew. We were just hoping that by some miracle the foreigners would have broken out of the mold by now and been really competing with the Korean nationals.
Yes, we have some good foreigners, but the odds aren't there. A smart bet will almost always side with the Koreans.
All that said, I'm very glad that Koreans are flying to foreign events and foreigners are flying to Korean events. It's really starting to look global to me.
I think E-sports needs to do what we have needed to for a while, make propagandistic items and spread them through out the internet, i.e. Che-ifying pictures of IdrA, HuK, MC, etc. Or obama-fying the same stuff, etc. To get the prime number of sponsors, computer gaming has to step out of the nerd-light and into the nerd-baller light where people can identify by teams and players at once. I love Startales, their protosses keep me coming, but at the same time i couldn't see myself creating a storyline just for ST_Squirtle, despite my <3 for his play. I think its time we got the big name sponsors to put up commercials on boards in starbucks and things like that to introduce the communities of the world to barcrafts and other events.
On April 23 2012 10:25 FXOBoSs wrote: Very nice post plexa. It actually highlights many of the reasons I have made certain decisions.
Explain what those certain decisions are?
I'd prefer not to be stabbed with pitch forks today. Perhaps some other time.
I foresee people getting more angry at you for mentioning it then not explaining... I think it'd have been best to not tease people like that
I don't. But an example of a decision would be to focus on our korean team ahead of foreign players. Because financially the ones you will get a big return out of will cost too much and won't win anything. Korean market is just better because its skill based not PR spinning crap.
Take the NBA, the biggest hyped players, are the best players. In SC2 its like completely opposite. The most hyped players, don't really win anything. Or have won something, but won't win again.
I hope this has satisfied you.
Would you say that funneling money into fou and putting previously faceless Koreans into the spotlight has been a better decision than your previous idea of raising a "family" of foreign players?
What do you think foreign teams along with up and coming players can do to compete with pro house living Koreans?
What is your opinion on foreign teams also investing heavily into established Korean players over newer foreign ones?
I've always been interested in FXO. You seem like one of the smarter dudes in sc2 esports, unfortunately people seem too quick to blindly jump on bandwagons and drama over simply reading things.
On April 22 2012 21:33 Wasteweiser wrote: After watching so much sc2 and getting glimpses of korean culture i'll be dead honest, i don't like their culture at all, and even if i went pro enough to win a gsl, i'd be very hesitant to go to korea and compete. Why? because of how the majority of the SC2 pros act coming from korea, all bland and very unintresting. There are like 3 player's personalities that i enjoy from korea and half of them are a bit against the grain of their culture, MC, Genius, MKP. MC and Genius are cocky and confident, its a lovely contrast to everyone else while MKP holds his emotions on his sleeve, making you want him to succeed. Really I want to see player's emotions, like watching Grubby, Dimaga, Naniwa ect.. These guys explode with happiness when they win, it shows they have passion, it shows they're human and those are the people you want to cheer for.
It doesn't sound like you have watched much of the Korean scene at all if those are the only personalities you find interesting. If anything DRG is much more cocky than Genius and managed to back it up more often, in the last interviews from Genius he was the opposite of cocky. And if your looking for a player who shows his emotions, what about HerO? Even in victory he sometimes looks like he is on the verge of breaking down, and often posts heartfelt messages to his fans in his fan club referring to us as his 'brothers and sisters' asking us to cheer for him whether he wins or loses. I even find Curious interesting for the complete opposite reason, as Wolf always mentions, that he tries to take all emotion out of the equation when he is in the booth, making him look like a stone cold killer.
There are plenty of interesting personalities in Korea, but you wont be likely to find out about them unless you actively follow their matches and their background stories.
To be honest i've completely stopped watching gsl all togeather as of recent. (the rise of DRG in code s) Also HerO I didn't follow at all, I just saw it as TL fanboyism surrounding him, I love his play and demonstrates extremely high levels of skill (I did consider him the best protoss in the world a few months back) but I haven't seen any real personality from him, or drg, or curious. It also doesn't help that events like MLG arena are now pov, i've almost entirely stopped watching SC2, I just play and watch replays. You could definitly say im very ignorant of what the scene is right now, and thats absolutely true, but the scene was definitly very bland after the first GSLs and very little personalities crept out. Anyone who conforms to the status quo in korea doesn't exactly bring a compelling personality, its just the same old crap, its why i never watch korean interviews, almost ever.
I don't watch sc2 tournaments as i used to follow all of them back in the days.. Its not intresting for me the games are kinda like the same the whole time just executed slightly different + koreans allways win which im fine with but foreigners dont allways send their top player they just go oh you can go there? sweet gl hf The second thing i hate most is how people hype too much OMG x foreign is gonna win FUCK YEAH and u see that person lose horribly in his first matchup and that just doesn't look good, Heck all the times the chat is filled with OMFG he should of done x this and x that and then follow with x people just think it's easy to win doing bullshit things.
One major thing is foreign training camp its just a joke seeing how people go THIS man right here i swear he just practiced x amount of days/hours/months so what his practice partners is the ones that can make him shine not just mass ladder game + stream all the time
havent played SC2 in like 1year+many months don't think im gonna watch any major tournaments from now on, TL will still be my nr 1 news source
I agree for the most part, but i dont think anything will happen. There is so little incentive for tournament organizer not to invite the same players over and over again, because they have many fans and many followers on FB/twitter etc. so that way they reach the maximum amount of people which is what the sponsors want....
I think foreigner get enough coverage as it is. As soon as there is someone new that beats 2-3 progamers we hear about it. Getting them to tournys is another story. I also believe there should be less invite and more online qualifier and such.
As for Korean PR wait until Kespa teams gets to MLG and such. It's going to explode.
This is misleading to be honest. sc2 is doing better than fine and the "unpopular" korean theory might be applicable only to a few die-hards who don't really follow sc2. me and my friends have followed all mlg and even the terrible nasl, and we have always been excited, and we believe 90% of the crowd as well, wheneevr a korean is playing, much more in the late stages or in the finals.
Exactly what I have been feeling ever since the Korean invasion began. GSL Code S weeds out the average players and only the top remain. However, in the foreign scene it's been the same guys ever since beta, and very few newcomers have shown up.
It is getting boring to watch imo, usually there isn't any reason to watch any game of foreigners because they'll get steamrolled (few exceptions remain, like Huk, Stephano or Naniwa and maybeee Thorzain/Socke) I usualy only tune into semis and finals because the rest just bores me.
A lot of the current good koreans lack personality but we are soon approaching a new era when a lot of koreans with major fanbases and charisma to spare are going to start playing SC2 for real.
On April 24 2012 00:02 xwoGworwaTsx wrote: This is misleading to be honest. sc2 is doing better than fine and the "unpopular" korean theory might be applicable only to a few die-hards who don't really follow sc2. me and my friends have followed all mlg and even the terrible nasl, and we have always been excited, and we believe 90% of the crowd as well, wheneevr a korean is playing, much more in the late stages or in the finals.
No, this is not misleading it is very true. You don't have any facts to back up what you are saying other than "your friend" well me and my friend watch SC2 as well, but when all the forginers are gone we just stop watching and go play something else because we lose interest.
Also this unpopular unpopular Korean theory only DOESN'T apply to the die-hard SC2 fans who will put in the time to learn about players, not the other way around.
Your the crowd theory of yours is also not true as was mentioned by people at the event saying it felt like there was no one left at the end when it was just two Koreans playing for champion.
Finally the numbers back the claim that Sc2 isn't growing, its stagnant and everyone knows after stagnation there will be a decline, and no this isn't the casuals leaving, they left in year one.
@ everyone who says i need to do research on "faceless" koreans so they aren't faceless anymore, it's not my job to research players. I didn't learn Idra's personality by looking him up, I didn't learn about Kobe by googling him, and I sure as hell won't go looking up stuff about some random korean that shows up at tournaments. I spend all year in school doing HW and researching and if I am paying for entertainment that I have to do work on then I guess ill just be watching free streams from now on.
On April 24 2012 00:20 disciple wrote: A lot of the current good koreans lack personality but we are soon approaching a new era when a lot of koreans with major fanbases and charisma to spare are going to start playing SC2 for real.
I think a big factor in developing Brood War personalities was the production. Zooming in on Jaedong's death-stare, for an example, or cutting to a shot of a team's reactions. This is what OGN can provide.
On April 22 2012 00:53 killerdog wrote: This reminds me of the old "final edits" articles on tl. Have those just stopped being written (rplaced with featured blogs?) because if not this deserves to be one. I love reading well thought out opinion pieces like this, even if i don't neccesarily agree with everything said, seeing a properly formulated argument is nice enough in itself
This is a terrific point I hadn't even considered. I'll try and become a stephano/huk supporter. I agree with almost everything you have to say here to be honest.
On April 22 2012 07:40 Tachion wrote: BBoongbboong has 38,000 GSL off the record views
Alive has 16,000
This is AFTER ALIVE WON IPL4, and he still has less than half the people watching him as some guy who did kinda well in team leagues. Faceless Korean to the max.
It's not b4's fault that hes a lot funnier than alive :<
Also hasn't BBoongbboongs off the record been out for longer too?
Na b4o4's off the record came out a week later than Alive's.
I blame foreigner-biased fans who are blind to true talent and will constantly wave the banner of outdated and poorly-performing foreigners purely to make a statement. If said people would realize that talent is its own reward and stop blindly supporting has-beens, they would quickly realize that there are a great number of talented players outside of Korea who are worth of their time. People blindly bash Korean bias without realizing that it's built entirely on performance rather than being a petty popularity contest.
Starcraft is, at its heart, a competitive and highly-demanding game. Blindly rooting for a contender based off of anything else is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to those who put in untold hours to be the best and remain humble all the while. That being said, this whole situation will work itself out with time. The skilled foreigners with enough luck and skill to succeed without golden-platter opportunities will usher in a new age of foreigners to cheer for, and the old guard will be forced to pass on the torch.
Here's to Stephano, Thorzain, Naniwa, and HuK-leading the way.
On April 24 2012 14:48 Hall0wed wrote: alive and Squirtle are only faceless to those that don't follow the scene well enough.
You people are so silly.
They aren't faceless however they aren't exactly superstars generally. What he means by faceless is you could insert another player of the same race at the same caliber and most people wouldn't know that difference.
On April 24 2012 13:15 Alacast wrote: I blame foreigner-biased fans who are blind to true talent and will constantly wave the banner of outdated and poorly-performing foreigners purely to make a statement. If said people would realize that talent is its own reward and stop blindly supporting has-beens, they would quickly realize that there are a great number of talented players outside of Korea who are worth of their time. People blindly bash Korean bias without realizing that it's built entirely on performance rather than being a petty popularity contest.
Starcraft is, at its heart, a competitive and highly-demanding game. Blindly rooting for a contender based off of anything else is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to those who put in untold hours to be the best and remain humble all the while. That being said, this whole situation will work itself out with time. The skilled foreigners with enough luck and skill to succeed without golden-platter opportunities will usher in a new age of foreigners to cheer for, and the old guard will be forced to pass on the torch.
Here's to Stephano, Thorzain, Naniwa, and HuK-leading the way.
Gosh! so wrong to root for your home team apparently and should ONLY root for true skill guess i have to go with Yankees, Lakers and the soviets (for hockey) since its criminal to do it any other way.
On April 24 2012 14:48 Hall0wed wrote: alive and Squirtle are only faceless to those that don't follow the scene well enough.
You people are so silly.
They aren't faceless however they aren't exactly superstars generally. What he means by faceless is you could insert another player of the same race at the same caliber and most people wouldn't know that difference.
I understand that but I don't agree with that either. Squirtle is the best player in the Universe (he created Nestea after all) and those that do not understand that shall soon come to terms with their new overlord.
On April 24 2012 14:48 Hall0wed wrote: alive and Squirtle are only faceless to those that don't follow the scene well enough.
You people are so silly.
They aren't faceless however they aren't exactly superstars generally. What he means by faceless is you could insert another player of the same race at the same caliber and most people wouldn't know that difference.
I understand that but I don't agree with that either. Squirtle is the best player in the Universe (he created Nestea after all) and those that do not understand that shall soon come to terms with their new overlord.
you don't have to agree i guess but really its the truth when it comes to casual sc2 viewership whether you want to agree with it or not i really don't care.
On April 24 2012 13:15 Alacast wrote: I blame foreigner-biased fans who are blind to true talent and will constantly wave the banner of outdated and poorly-performing foreigners purely to make a statement. If said people would realize that talent is its own reward and stop blindly supporting has-beens, they would quickly realize that there are a great number of talented players outside of Korea who are worth of their time. People blindly bash Korean bias without realizing that it's built entirely on performance rather than being a petty popularity contest.
Starcraft is, at its heart, a competitive and highly-demanding game. Blindly rooting for a contender based off of anything else is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to those who put in untold hours to be the best and remain humble all the while. That being said, this whole situation will work itself out with time. The skilled foreigners with enough luck and skill to succeed without golden-platter opportunities will usher in a new age of foreigners to cheer for, and the old guard will be forced to pass on the torch.
Here's to Stephano, Thorzain, Naniwa, and HuK-leading the way.
Gosh! so wrong to root for your home team apparently and should ONLY root for true skill guess i have to go with Yankees, Lakers and the soviets (for hockey) since its criminal to do it any other way.
On April 24 2012 13:15 Alacast wrote: I blame foreigner-biased fans who are blind to true talent and will constantly wave the banner of outdated and poorly-performing foreigners purely to make a statement. If said people would realize that talent is its own reward and stop blindly supporting has-beens, they would quickly realize that there are a great number of talented players outside of Korea who are worth of their time. People blindly bash Korean bias without realizing that it's built entirely on performance rather than being a petty popularity contest.
Starcraft is, at its heart, a competitive and highly-demanding game. Blindly rooting for a contender based off of anything else is, in my opinion, a slap in the face to those who put in untold hours to be the best and remain humble all the while. That being said, this whole situation will work itself out with time. The skilled foreigners with enough luck and skill to succeed without golden-platter opportunities will usher in a new age of foreigners to cheer for, and the old guard will be forced to pass on the torch.
Here's to Stephano, Thorzain, Naniwa, and HuK-leading the way.
Gosh! so wrong to root for your home team apparently and should ONLY root for true skill guess i have to go with Yankees, Lakers and the soviets (for hockey) since its criminal to do it any other way.
Horrid analogy really.
Its an equivalent analogy? not to mention that is essentially what he is saying when i root for US players that aren't top tier.
Cheering for foreigners only isn't something I can just stop doing. No matter how much the "skill advocates" push their completely rational and sound arguments. Skill is impressive, undoubtedly. It's just I need something to be able to relate to. Koreans come from a foreign land on the other side of the planet and while I have nothing against them, I just cannot relate to them. Thus tournaments lose a lot of their entertainment value when it's only Koreans left.
I have a theory that the "skill advocates" are the spectators that actually play the game. Whereas people who don't play any more (or people who have never played at all) are watching for completely different reasons. While all the epic builds the best players use are impressive. People who don't play don't put such an equally high value on them as people who play actively. just my 2 cents.
I have a theory that the "skill advocates" are the spectators that actually play the game. Whereas people who don't play any more (or people who have never played at all) are watching for completely different reasons. While all the epic builds the best players use are impressive. People who don't play don't put such an equally high value on them as people who play actively. just my 2 cents.
This is probably true. I'd say that people who play also care mostly about their own races. They watch to learn.
On April 24 2012 18:09 Kiichol wrote: Cheering for foreigners only isn't something I can just stop doing. No matter how much the "skill advocates" push their completely rational and sound arguments. Skill is impressive, undoubtedly. It's just I need something to be able to relate to. Koreans come from a foreign land on the other side of the planet and while I have nothing against them, I just cannot relate to them. Thus tournaments lose a lot of their entertainment value when it's only Koreans left.
I have a theory that the "skill advocates" are the spectators that actually play the game. Whereas people who don't play any more (or people who have never played at all) are watching for completely different reasons. While all the epic builds the best players use are impressive. People who don't play don't put such an equally high value on them as people who play actively. just my 2 cents.
It might be plausible but certainly I don't fit the mold (granted im fairly casual at platinum w/ 5-10 games a week) I still play the game and am not a "skill advocate" xD. Otoh though my masters level RL friend is a skill advocate and hes certainly more skilled than i am so I guess i can get behind your argument
This kind of shit makes Koreans a lot easier to relate to, they should have Violet do informal interviews with Koreans at big foreign events all the time
Thanks for posting this Plexa. The way I view it is this:
There are three parties in growing the foreign scene:
(1) The teams and players (2) The tournament organizers and sponsors (3) The spectators
On their own, no one has great incentive to grow the scene. Really, one or more of the parties need to invest/take a risk in the scene:
(1) Players with potential need to sacrifice some of their social well-being to train to reach the next level. Teams need to take the financial risk to support these players. (2) Tournament organizers and sponsors need to create grassroots-focused events that give incentive to foreigners to train and get better but at the risk of being shunned by spectators that only want to watch "the best" play. (3) Spectators need to support the players, teams, tournaments, and sponsors that are focused on growing the scene. This may mean not watching GSL-quality games or productions that are not as well-polished as an IPL or MLG.
And I think we're slowly getting there with showmatches and small events. But only time --- on the order of years ---- will tell if the investments we put into the scene now will pay off. And that's probably the scariest proposition of all.
I don't think the answer has to be to make foreigners more prominent in these other tournaments...we just need to have the Faceless Koreans but less faceless.
We can look at the Koreans who are not faceless and who are fan favourites: MC is probably #1, DRG, Nestea, Genius, July, Boxer, MKP...
People give a crap about those guys, whether they're the best or not. And when you have a new guy pop up, people can start pulling for him. DRG came in later and was very hyped. Alicia had his moments, Parting...
The problem I don't think is just Faceless Korean, because those people can gain faces through stories, performance and so on, even to casuals.
I think the part the audience has completed soured on is 'Terran Player with no measurable Human Personality, Korean or Not'
I think when we hit that total Terran pool of like 25 Terrans in GSL or whatever it was, I think a lot of people started to tune out new Terrans. Alive just couldn't be more generic, its hard to give a crap about him, or Polt, or the other 82 of them.
Boxer is loved by divine right, and MKP I'm pretty sure is a kitten wearing people-clothes. But even MVP...undeniably dominant, but did anyone actually care?
People like personality, and people like underdogs becoming winners. We've not seen a lot of these guys have personalities, and its too ingrained in us by now, A Korean Terran simply is not the underdog.
I think the story telling aspects are going to help a lot as it develops, and things like OTR will help as well. But ya, it's going to take a little time and healing before people can embrace a new Terran.
This is a wonderful blog. Probably the best written article I've ever had the pleasure to read on TL.net. Thank you for writing this, Plexa.
I want to add that another way to beat the "Faceless Korean" syndrome is for tournaments to give the Koreans they invite a face! They can do this by giving interviews/ pre-made videos. Maybe show where the Korean came from, his aspiring hopes and dreams.
The problem is many great Korean players have terrible PR relations with the west. No tournament right now is giving them enough of a facet to explain who they are. I imagine aLive's win at IPL4 would have been a lot better received if we actually knew who the hell he is as a person. Not everyone can be a DongRaeGu with a funny/awesome personality...many of them need a push of fame through these media contents.