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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Note: This blog is quite late. I had the idea to write this right after the "KeSPA will send players to GSL" announcement was made, but because of work and The International 2, I never got around to it.
I haven't heard anything about the KeSPA vs GOM conflict since KeSPA seemingly caved last week. For those who have forgotten what happened, KeSPA originally stated that they would not send players to GSL 4 (the one that just started) or GSL 5. A group of GSL players led by Nestea countered by threatening to pull out of the OSL; all but one GSL player pledged to leave. KeSPA then made a statement promising to send players to GSL 5, but that was not enough to placate the GSL players, who continued to hold out. Finally, KeSPA conceded completely and sent 90 players to the GSL 4 prelims (and also allowed Jaedong and by.Sun to compete in Code S). But in this blog I'm going to explain why KeSPA will withdraw its players from the GSL as soon as it feels it can do so without repercussions.
In comments on the situation from TL and reddit, it was interesting that no one was speculating on KeSPA's motives. Or at least they were doing so vaguely. "They want a monopoly on the big name players." "They want to shut out anyone who doesn't dance to their fiddle." Every post that tried to explain KeSPA's actions seemed confusing to me.
So I'm going to try to explain the intent behind KeSPA's actions. By looking at what KeSPA wants and at what assets they have to help them get what they want, we'll be able to see that this conflict between GOM and KeSPA has not gone away and is in danger of splitting the SC2 scene in two in the coming months.
Before we begin, it's important to realize that KeSPA and the Proleague proteams are essentially one and the same. The decision-making body in KeSPA is made up of people from all the different sponsors/owners of proteams.
Let's flash back to 2007. IEG (International Esports Group) was a company sponsoring the proteam eSTRO. One day, KeSPA decided that they, as the administrators of all SC:BW events, owned the rights to broadcast such events. They put the rights up for auction for a three year period. OGN and MBC neglected to bid on those rights (because they did not recognize KeSPA's legitimacy in claiming those rights) and IEG snapped them up. A few months later, IEG started negotiations with MBC/OGN, stating that those two broadcasting companies needed to pay IEG for the rights to run leagues. During this time, KeSPA was strongly supporting IEG in their negotiations. MBC and OGN fought back, refusing IEG's demands outright, and talks broke down repeatedly. But when KeSPA pulled all of their players from the MSL qualifiers, OGN and MBC quickly caved. They simply couldn't run their tournaments without KeSPA players.
So KeSPA wanted money to help offset the cost of running proteams. They used their assets (the players on their proteams) to accomplish the goal of pressuring OGN/MBC to give them money. That statement might make no sense since OGN/MBC were paying IEG, not KeSPA itself. But KeSPA needed OGN/MBC to pay IEG, or broadcasting rights to KeSPA-run leagues would be essentially worthless. It's not like any company would purchase broadcasting rights from KeSPA if they had no guarantee that they'd be able to make the broadcasting companies pay up.
After the fracas in 2007, there was stability in the ESPORTS ecosystem. The broadcasting companies essentially paid KeSPA via IEG, and KeSPA used the money to run the proteam houses. Not a bad system overall, and not a system that casts KeSPA in such a bad light, I think. Running a proteam house is expensive!
But once GOM entered the scene, a wrench was thrown into the mix. GOM started a brand new SC:BW league in 2008 and refused to pay IEG a dime for broadcasting rights. Three teams boycotted the first GOM Classic Starleague: eSTRO, MBCgame HERO, and OGN Sparkyz. It shouldn't be difficult to work out exactly why each of those teams felt that it wasn't in their best interest to participate (recall that eSTRO was sponsored by IEG).
GOM preferred to deal with Blizzard, who they saw as the legitimate holders of Starcraft broadcasting rights. This created a problem for KeSPA. Its players (aka its assets) were being used for the benefit of another corporation without anything in return beyond sponsor exposure. The fact that GOM was not paying IEG meant that the value of KeSPA's broadcasting rights was not increasing. GOM paying Blizzard also set a troubling precedent for that KeSPA desperately hoped OGN and MBC would not follow. So KeSPA teams gradually began withdrawing from the league, citing scheduling issues / overwork for the players. In the third season of the league, SKT1 withdrew. Before the fourth season could start, KT, STX Soul, and Airforce ACE withdrew. Blizzard entered into negotiations with KeSPA to try to save the league, but the talks failed. In late 2009, with only five teams participating, the GSL ceased to be.
Fast forward to 2012. An identical situation is taking place. GOM is not paying IEG (although I'm not sure if IEG has rights to anything but Proleague anymore) and is certainly not paying KeSPA. So KeSPA, naturally, withdrew their players from GSL. Once again, their assets were being used in a way that did not benefit them beyond sponsorship exposure. But this time, they had to back down. They no longer held all the cards. GSL would have survived without KeSPA players, and OGN would have been dealt a crippling blow without half of its Ro16.
In six months, what will the situation be like? If you're a believer in the superiority of KeSPA players, you might expect half of Code S to be made up of them by then. That means the blade that Nestea and co. had at the neck of OGN will be turned on GOM.
Just like in 2007, KeSPA will be able to use their players as leverage in talks with GOM/Blizzard. The threat of withdrawal from GSL will be very real. KeSPA will be able to make new demands from a position of power. And if past relations between Blizzard/GOM and KeSPA are any indication, negotiations will fail and KeSPA will withdraw its players as a result. Last week, KeSPA chose to announce its non-participation in GSL right before the OSL Ro16, leaving them open to a counter-boycott. Next time around, they can choose better timing for their announcement of withdrawal.
So that's my prediction. A counterargument to this blog might be the idea that Blizzard will swoop in and threaten KeSPA with the shutdown of Proleague/OSL in order to convince them to send players to the GSL. However, I believe that this is extremely unlikely. If I were Blizzard, I would treat that kind of threat as a nuclear option -- one to be used as a last resort. A threat of total shutdown might be the cue for KeSPA to switch away from SC2 entirely. I think Blizzard is afraid of that possibility, given SC2's unpopularity in Korea. Blizzard Korea has also been seemingly ineffectual during this whole fiasco. They were caught completely off guard by KeSPA's actions and they did not release a public statement with any substance during the whole affair. Don't expect Blizzard to ride in on a white horse and save GSL in the event that KeSPA withdraws its players.
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Great write-up! As always I have no confidence in any analysis, whether it be pro play or esports politics, but it was a good read. It's pretty interesting what will develop now that we have this tension really going on now.
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A very good post and one that many should read. The factors involved in the KeSPA-GOM-Blizzard dispute really create very different positions and motivations for each side in a cash-starved industry and there's the very real risk that there's going to be a big split in the coming future.
There's no love lost between KeSPA and Blizzard from the initial launch of SC2 and the contention over Brood War too.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
I believe the key to this entire relationship would actually lie in proleague.
If we are to believe in the original plan the the next season of proleague will have eSF teams in it along with kespa teams and I believe there is a strong possibility of it because with ACE gone it will be only 7 teams which would cause a problem.
then they couldn't possibly pull stunts like that again since eSF teams could just refuse to play in PL themselves, and this time directly damage KeSPA since KeSPA claim that proleague is "their product".
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I don't know much about any of this, but it's a little surprising that KeSPA sat on its hands for years while the heir apparent (SC2) to its source of income (BW) fostered the growth of competitors. Were they just arrogant enough to think SC2 would die out? Did they think no business structure would develop in the new game? It seems like an incredible miscalculation or lack of foresight, one which they are now scurrying to rectify and finding that, as you suggested, they don't have as many cards as they thought.
There may also come a time when the players themselves find that it is no longer in their best interests to be in KeSPA or...whatever the SC2 equivalent is...there may come a time where players realize they can make more money doing xyz instead of sticking with the current paradigm. Who knows!
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Great blog. KeSPA/Blizz makes a lot more sense now.
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I enjoyed reading your blog. However, I can't say that I will read the inevitable 30 pages of comments that will be here by this time tomorrow.
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KeSPA can simply switch away from sc2 to lol or even dota2 if Valve somehow putting money to OGN just like Riot It's not like sc2 is really popular in korea (compared to BW/lol)
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Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure.
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What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull?
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? That's an important question, and I don't have an answer.
EDIT: No, it's the wrong question to ask. KeSPA has leverage, GOM has leverage, Blizzard has leverage. The question is not how to "prevent" any shenanigans from KeSPA. That's impossible to do. The question is how to negotiate, how much to concede, etc. And only Blizzard and GOM are in a position to answer that question.
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On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? One of the greatest problems is that SC2 in Korea is less sustainable and stable than we'd rather it be. There was an issue with converting the BW fan to SC2 as well. SC2 has also had a poor showing popularity-wise in terms of playerbase too. Any more controversy and the scene risks hurting itself even further, and possibly permanently too.
As BLinD-RawR mentioned, perhaps a solution is closer integration with KeSPA so that anything KeSPA tries will only hurt itself too. But the conditions of any agreement may be steep and I wonder if GOM/eSF are willing to pay or even want to get closer to KeSPA. After all, eSF was formed from the very beginning to oppose KeSPA and prevent it from taking over.
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On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. It wont go big in china unless its free to play or u get a pirate copy of the game and play, which u cant really. The reason dota and wc3 was so big in china was because it was free and pirate copies of wc3 were everywhere. Blizzard not including LAN to prevent pirate copies of the game basically kills the chance for a chinese scene
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On September 04 2012 13:52 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. It wont go big in china unless its free to play or u get a pirate copy of the game and play, which u cant really. The reason dota and wc3 was so big in china was because it was free and pirate copies of wc3 were everywhere. Blizzard not including LAN to prevent pirate copies of the game basically kills the chance for a chinese scene
Quite true. If someone hacked SC2 to make it LAN compatible, then, perhaps, a Chinese scene could come to be...
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I didn't know about IEG, but I saw how KeSPA muscled GOM out of the scene (they even used the EXACT same excuse this time!), so this is nowhere near a surprise for me.
I agree that Blizzard is looking pretty ineffectual. They may favor GOM since GOM has always treated them as the true owners of the broadcast rights, but they likely understand just how precarious a position they're in.
This is actually a very frightening situation, because nobody really holds a trump card that will just win them everything. GOM's players are needed in the OSL, and KeSPA's players are needed in the GSL. The IEG/KeSPA situation coexists with GOM's treating with Blizzard... And while blizzard could really drop the bomb and try to take away IEG/KeSPA's rights there, I doubt that would actually cripple KeSPA, considering how they've been working with other games for a while now.
Overall, I have no idea where this will end, but it likely won't be pretty.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
On September 04 2012 13:50 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? One of the greatest problems is that SC2 in Korea is less sustainable and stable than we'd rather it be. There was an issue with converting the BW fan to SC2 as well. SC2 has also had a poor showing popularity-wise in terms of playerbase too. Any more controversy and the scene risks hurting itself even further, and possibly permanently too. As BLinD-RawR mentioned, perhaps a solution is closer integration with KeSPA so that anything KeSPA tries will only hurt itself too. But the conditions of any agreement may be steep and I wonder if GOM/eSF are willing to pay or even want to get closer to KeSPA. After all, eSF was formed from the very beginning to oppose KeSPA and prevent it from taking over.
preventing it from taking over does not mean they should not work with them, which is also one of their goals.
it is very important for eSF to keep KeSPA as close to them as possible.
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On September 04 2012 14:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:50 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? One of the greatest problems is that SC2 in Korea is less sustainable and stable than we'd rather it be. There was an issue with converting the BW fan to SC2 as well. SC2 has also had a poor showing popularity-wise in terms of playerbase too. Any more controversy and the scene risks hurting itself even further, and possibly permanently too. As BLinD-RawR mentioned, perhaps a solution is closer integration with KeSPA so that anything KeSPA tries will only hurt itself too. But the conditions of any agreement may be steep and I wonder if GOM/eSF are willing to pay or even want to get closer to KeSPA. After all, eSF was formed from the very beginning to oppose KeSPA and prevent it from taking over. preventing it from taking over does not mean they should not work with them, which is also one of their goals. it is very important for eSF to keep KeSPA as close to them as possible. Are you paraphrasing Michael Corleone here?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
On September 04 2012 14:32 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 14:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:On September 04 2012 13:50 Chiharu Harukaze wrote:On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? One of the greatest problems is that SC2 in Korea is less sustainable and stable than we'd rather it be. There was an issue with converting the BW fan to SC2 as well. SC2 has also had a poor showing popularity-wise in terms of playerbase too. Any more controversy and the scene risks hurting itself even further, and possibly permanently too. As BLinD-RawR mentioned, perhaps a solution is closer integration with KeSPA so that anything KeSPA tries will only hurt itself too. But the conditions of any agreement may be steep and I wonder if GOM/eSF are willing to pay or even want to get closer to KeSPA. After all, eSF was formed from the very beginning to oppose KeSPA and prevent it from taking over. preventing it from taking over does not mean they should not work with them, which is also one of their goals. it is very important for eSF to keep KeSPA as close to them as possible. Are you paraphrasing Michael Corleone here?
Indeed I am.
but I don't exactly see them as "enemies", hence the paraphrasing.
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On September 04 2012 13:39 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:35 d3_crescentia wrote: What do you think Blizzard/GOM/eSF's options are to prevent any future shenanigans KeSPA tries to pull? That's an important question, and I don't have an answer. EDIT: No, it's the wrong question to ask. KeSPA has leverage, GOM has leverage, Blizzard has leverage. The question is not how to "prevent" any shenanigans from KeSPA. That's impossible to do. The question is how to negotiate, how much to concede, etc. And only Blizzard and GOM are in a position to answer that question. I was looking for a better word than "prevent" (somewhere along the lines of anticipate/mitigate/negotiate), but my vocabulary failed me. Still, point taken.
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SC2 has to become popular in Korea for KESPA to gain any strength in SC2.
foreigner favoritism will stay with GOM as long as they have Tastosis, GOM keeps providing foreigner invites, and GOM reaches out to the foreign audience like partnering with IPL and holding their tournament finals at IPL.
KESPA can possibly end up having the most skilled SC2 players, but people have shown they are more interested in following casters & personalities than pure quality of play.
foreign interest in SC2 has plateaued and been declining. Stephano is single handedly keeping foreigner interest in SC2 alive imo. HoTS really needs to get released to shake things up again.
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The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES48992 Posts
On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such.
GomTV is as needed as MBC was.
a second broadcasting station is a good thing
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Despite the fact that KeSPA has done many dodgy things in the past, I decided it was the lesser of the two evils a long time ago.
I agree with Nikon - Blizzard holding the cards wouldn't do either - they'd just as quickly scrap the SC2 scene for WC4 when it's out. There's a reason why WoW arena isn't in MLG anymore (afaik)?
The threat of KeSPA is good, keeps Blizzard on their toes. I'd count on Blizzard to do something shady if left in full control.
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On September 04 2012 19:06 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such. GomTV is as needed as MBC was. a second broadcasting station is a good thing
Thing is, GomTV differs from MBC in the way it operates. I'm not saying that a second broadcasing station is a bad thing, but do we really need GomTV?
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On September 04 2012 19:15 Nikon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 19:06 BLinD-RawR wrote:On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such. GomTV is as needed as MBC was. a second broadcasting station is a good thing Thing is, GomTV differs from MBC in the way it operates. I'm not saying that a second broadcasing station is a bad thing, but do we really need GomTV?
Aren't you looking at this the wrong way? GomTV have been broadcasting SC2 for a while now. Kespa is the new kid in this area, and the "second broadcasting station". As an SC2 viewer I recognise far more SC2 names than BW names.
Why do we need Kespa?
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On September 04 2012 19:38 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 19:15 Nikon wrote:On September 04 2012 19:06 BLinD-RawR wrote:On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such. GomTV is as needed as MBC was. a second broadcasting station is a good thing Thing is, GomTV differs from MBC in the way it operates. I'm not saying that a second broadcasing station is a bad thing, but do we really need GomTV? Aren't you looking at this the wrong way? GomTV have been broadcasting SC2 for a while now. Kespa is the new kid in this area, and the "second broadcasting station". As an SC2 viewer I recognise far more SC2 names than BW names. Why do we need Kespa? I think the point is less needing KeSPA but more "wanting" KeSPA. As crazy as that sounds...
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Current Poll on Frontpage shows that people will follow the best in the long term. So discussion which league/organisation would prevail is answered i think, not even mentioning the bigger infrastructure behind KeSPA.
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That is a bleak picture of the future you are painting, but I guess it's no use looking away from reality. And though I prefer watching the best players, my loyality will be with GOM, even though they tried to pull that 50$ per season at the beginning.
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It's pretty ridiculous how KESPA ignored SC2 for so long, and now they are trying to out-muscle GOMTV who have been supporting SC2 from the beginning with Blizzard's backing. TBH I thought they had exclusive rights in Korea.
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so how do you propose to stop that happening?
must the gomtv players train even harder and outpace the kespa players hoping Code S still results in majority gomtv?
or should we be showing the kespa team players that the grass is greener on our side come join our teams?
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Is the grass really greener outside of Kespa? Surely not for the top players who earn somewhat respectable salaries, or so I heard.
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I still find the logic a little hard to follow (with regards to the initial hate towards KeSPA). We know that KeSPA is a conglomorate of representatives from all the team, right? We know that two of those teams are MBC Heros and OGN Sparkies, right? So maybe that's only two out of 11 members, but doesn't it seem weird that MBCGame and OGN would be caught off guard by broadcasting rights issues? Surely they were both part of the party selling the rights in the first place... The logic escapes me unless they were excluded from KeSPA and it's not quite all the teams, but just the most powerful ones... But basically what ends up happening is OGN and MBC pay IEG and IEG pays KeSPA, which is 2/8ths OGN and MBC... Well, obviously something like that is exactly what happened, but I wouldn't call it crazy.
In my opinon when GOM first started holding its BW leagues it made some pretty big mistakes. Originally it was kind of a one off invitational which was really cool. But then it put a strain on the system and reduced the quality of the whole leagues games. Why did OGN and MBC teams refuse to participate? They put value on the quality of their broadcasted games is another reason outside this IEG business which you've decided is the sole deciding factor.
GOM should have set up a really nice league for amateurs, or made semi-professionals out of students. It was definitely wrong for them to take an established player base and weaken the two leagues that had built it up in exchange for almost nothing without telling anyone. Basically they ended up doing that with SC2 in a very legitimate way and have earned their peace. Now you're right, KeSPA is losing its players again, but again the reason to consolidate feels like an issue with quality of games and players. Too many leagues is one of the reasons SC2 is still boring to watch. Players flying all over the world, not practicing enough, getting jet lagged all the time, especially champions. KeSPA can't claim to be the prime source right now, that title basically belongs to GOM, but the more they tighten their reigns and their players become better, the more capable they will be of cutting off events and growing their scene. Maybe that sounds ironic, but there's a difference between sending players to BlizzCON once a year, and sending players every other week half way across the world. I believe in a focused scene. I still don't quite understand the broadcasting rights fiascos with MBC and OGN, but I do think that the reasons for cutting off GOM are more than that. Not to mention GOM has always had lower quality production.
On September 04 2012 22:17 Denzil wrote: so how do you propose to stop that happening?
must the gomtv players train even harder and outpace the kespa players hoping Code S still results in majority gomtv?
or should we be showing the kespa team players that the grass is greener on our side come join our teams? Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way.
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This paints a very troubling picture for the future of competitive SC2, especially with LoL and DotA2.
I mean, is there really hope for the scene with this sort of internal fighting, external pressures from other games, and the general lack of popularity in Korea in the first place?
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On September 04 2012 22:44 Kygus wrote: This paints a very troubling picture for the future of competitive SC2, especially with LoL and DotA2.
I mean, is there really hope for the scene with this sort of internal fighting, external pressures from other games, and the general lack of popularity in Korea in the first place? Personally, I would sack the Korean scene to prevent the fighting from negatively affecting the scene everywhere else.
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Unless things have changed, is it not the case that GOMTV holds the broadcasting rights to SC2, and merely gave OGN/KeSPA licenses to allow broadcasts? So couldn't they, in the most dire of cases, decide to pull the plug on OGN entirely if KeSPA tries to pull another dick move?
Unless, of course, there are clauses for these thing in the contract, which seems likely.
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arent most of you still assuming that enough kespa players will actually catch up in sc2?
osl is always gonna need GOM players for sc2. GOM wont NEED kespa players for at least 6-12 months. Also, kespa needs their whole teams to be competitive in order for GOM to need them long term. if only one or 2 kespa players truly breakout in this intial 6 month period they may just get picked up by GOM teams eventually if their own kespa team is struggling. and the kespa just dissolves or moves on to something else.
like in the OP, the only tangible asset that kespa has/had are its players. if enough of them dont step up and break into code s/a then they will have less assets and less power.
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I think both sides have a fair amount to learn from the other side, if they can get past trying to become the biggest fish in the pond and control everything. (Which is why I tend to believe GOM over KeSPA - GOM seems to be trying to actually cooperate, while KeSPA is trying to return things to their status quo. IE, KeSPA controls all.)
The thing for KeSPA is to learn to let go, just a little bit, of their stranglehold on players. (This is why I think eSF was formed - to ensure that player interests are represented.) Not entirely, and certainly eSF could learn some things about team and player management - at least when it comes to marketing players.
GOM (and for that matter, others) could learn quite a bit about production value and the support structure around the production. KeSPA casters (and hopefully, their English casters if they choose to embrace the foreign markets) seem to have a lot better support behind them.
I don't know if both sides will work together, but I have to say that KeSPA's historical actions don't paint a good picture. And to be honest, the foreign scene at this point will go one with or without GOM or KeSPA - even if SC2 in Korea were to fail, we would still have Korean teams and players on the world stage because (as MC and others can attest) they can still make a decent amount of money so long as foreigners don't match their level of play.
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On September 04 2012 22:24 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:17 Denzil wrote: so how do you propose to stop that happening?
must the gomtv players train even harder and outpace the kespa players hoping Code S still results in majority gomtv?
or should we be showing the kespa team players that the grass is greener on our side come join our teams? Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way.
gom has gone above and beyond for the foreign community, holding tournaments in america, partnerships actively encouraging their players to go out the rest of the world and trying to be as convient as possible with their scheduling. I don't think people quite understand what they're set to lose if kespa replaces gom
that interaction with the foreign community? non existant barring moletrap and doa being allowed to poke a comment or 2 in wanting to pause but being 1 p too short? enjoy your DQ wanting to go to foreign tournaments? ungreatful player, do you even enjoy getting paid?
kespa players would show up to blizzcon and thats it, simply to placate blizzard maybe wcg. foreigners in korea would go back to being a joke barring the IdrAs who devote themselves to the cause and even then there's no guarenteed success.
perhaps i'm wrong, maybe kespa is a benevolent overlord who's killing parts of the scene for the greater good, but compared to having to watch it at 3 in the morning in a foreign language as a "forgotten" viewer (i say that in the sense there's no acknowledgement barring being an enigma when you go to show up live on the camera and the union between foreigners and koreans we have now? I think I'll take the later all day every day
part of the sad thing of the kespa players coming to mlg was just how chained they seemed (in my opinion)
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On September 04 2012 19:15 IntoTheEmo wrote: Despite the fact that KeSPA has done many dodgy things in the past, I decided it was the lesser of the two evils a long time ago.
I agree with Nikon - Blizzard holding the cards wouldn't do either - they'd just as quickly scrap the SC2 scene for WC4 when it's out. There's a reason why WoW arena isn't in MLG anymore (afaik)?
The threat of KeSPA is good, keeps Blizzard on their toes. I'd count on Blizzard to do something shady if left in full control.
Going to stop you right there. There is no WC4 and there never will be. WoW wrecked the world they used for that RTS. Any future RTS games like WC3 are going to need to be developed as a new brand. Warcraft is an MMO brand now, and Blizz has said they have no plans of ever turning it back.
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On September 04 2012 22:24 Chef wrote:I still find the logic a little hard to follow (with regards to the initial hate towards KeSPA). We know that KeSPA is a conglomorate of representatives from all the team, right? We know that two of those teams are MBC Heros and OGN Sparkies, right? So maybe that's only two out of 11 members, but doesn't it seem weird that MBCGame and OGN would be caught off guard by broadcasting rights issues? Surely they were both part of the party selling the rights in the first place... The logic escapes me unless they were excluded from KeSPA and it's not quite all the teams, but just the most powerful ones... But basically what ends up happening is OGN and MBC pay IEG and IEG pays KeSPA, which is 2/8ths OGN and MBC... Well, obviously something like that is exactly what happened, but I wouldn't call it crazy. In my opinon when GOM first started holding its BW leagues it made some pretty big mistakes. Originally it was kind of a one off invitational which was really cool. But then it put a strain on the system and reduced the quality of the whole leagues games. Why did OGN and MBC teams refuse to participate? They put value on the quality of their broadcasted games is another reason outside this IEG business which you've decided is the sole deciding factor. GOM should have set up a really nice league for amateurs, or made semi-professionals out of students. It was definitely wrong for them to take an established player base and weaken the two leagues that had built it up in exchange for almost nothing without telling anyone. Basically they ended up doing that with SC2 in a very legitimate way and have earned their peace. Now you're right, KeSPA is losing its players again, but again the reason to consolidate feels like an issue with quality of games and players. Too many leagues is one of the reasons SC2 is still boring to watch. Players flying all over the world, not practicing enough, getting jet lagged all the time, especially champions. KeSPA can't claim to be the prime source right now, that title basically belongs to GOM, but the more they tighten their reigns and their players become better, the more capable they will be of cutting off events and growing their scene. Maybe that sounds ironic, but there's a difference between sending players to BlizzCON once a year, and sending players every other week half way across the world. I believe in a focused scene. I still don't quite understand the broadcasting rights fiascos with MBC and OGN, but I do think that the reasons for cutting off GOM are more than that. Not to mention GOM has always had lower quality production. Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:17 Denzil wrote: so how do you propose to stop that happening?
must the gomtv players train even harder and outpace the kespa players hoping Code S still results in majority gomtv?
or should we be showing the kespa team players that the grass is greener on our side come join our teams? Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way.
I prefer the scene the way it is rather than focusing it and I think it gains more popularity this way too. People like seeing rivalries/stories like eSF vs KeSPA, Foreigner Hope against many Koreans, Korean Dominance over many Foreigners, their favourite players in their own country or their favourite players tearing it up in other countries.
While I understand that having a focused scene would probably create the absolute top quality of games, I'd rather have more opportunities to watch my favourite players while trying to keep as many people interested in SC2 as possible.
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I don't understand why everyone is putting so much stock into the "importance" of KeSPA. SC2 is a global esport. Something Brood War struggled with. KeSPA doesn't have the leverage it used to because of this. With no LAN Blizzard can literally pull the plug on KeSPA tournaments.
If KeSPA switches to another game like LoL, what's keeping their players from switching to ESF teams or going abroad? I understand there's all kinds of lockout situations and contract issues involved at the moment. But don't those hinge on KeSPA playing SC2?
Not to mention SC2 has been doing fine without KeSPA. I understand their players switching over will increase interest in Korea. But I don't see how it's a requirement for SC2 to keep functioning.
Someone please correct me if I'm in the wrong. I'm having a real hard time seeing how KeSPA can do anything with Blizzard able to shut them down as far as Starcraft goes.
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with eSTRO gone im sure IEG have little to nothing to do with bw now
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Most sensible thing I have read thus far on the matter.
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On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport"
I think it's a valid point, but I think it'll soon be clear that the casual gaming platforms (ie LoL, DOTA2, Angry Birds and the more casual brand of games) are a much bigger "threat" to the Korean gaming legacy, than SC2 will ever be.
The route Kespa have chosen, is to dedicate to the core concept of eSports, and of course, it is risky. Whether it is worth it or not is a toss-up at this point. Casual platforms have done big damage to eSports in the past, and most times (like with Halo or WoW:Arena), people either can't tell the difference, or can't see past the sky high viewer counts that casual platforms generate. A lot of people just give up and switch over (2GD and DJWheat both went from Quake to cast the now dead WoW:Arena).
I see Kespas dedication as confirmation that Koreans actually can tell the difference between the original eSports and these new "special" eSports.
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On September 04 2012 23:46 Eloot wrote: I don't understand why everyone is putting so much stock into the "importance" of KeSPA. SC2 is a global esport. Something Brood War struggled with. KeSPA doesn't have the leverage it used to because of this. With no LAN Blizzard can literally pull the plug on KeSPA tournaments.
If KeSPA switches to another game like LoL, what's keeping their players from switching to ESF teams or going abroad? I understand there's all kinds of lockout situations and contract issues involved at the moment. But don't those hinge on KeSPA playing SC2?
Not to mention SC2 has been doing fine without KeSPA. I understand their players switching over will increase interest in Korea. But I don't see how it's a requirement for SC2 to keep functioning.
Someone please correct me if I'm in the wrong. I'm having a real hard time seeing how KeSPA can do anything with Blizzard able to shut them down as far as Starcraft goes.
Blizzard would rather see Kespa own Korea than shut them down completely in SC2.
Paychecks, it's not easy to make a buck in esports.
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Well then I have no idea, why GOM invited Kespa into its SC2 buissness. We didn't need the Kespa players, most people don't even care, since most viewers are new customers to Starcraft, having no relation to SC1 proplay in Korea.
On the other hand, I can understand Kespa. They are basically doing the same as for instance NBA teams. They demand part of the revenue. They need it to pay players and the houses, they have expenses.
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On September 04 2012 12:59 motbob wrote: Just like in 2007, KeSPA will be able to use their players as leverage in talks with GOM/Blizzard. The threat of withdrawal from GSL will be very real. KeSPA will be able to make new demands from a position of power. And if past relations between Blizzard/GOM and KeSPA are any indication, negotiations will fail and KeSPA will withdraw its players as a result. Last week, KeSPA chose to announce its non-participation in GSL right before the OSL Ro16, leaving them open to a counter-boycott. Next time around, they can choose better timing for their announcement of withdrawal.
So that's my prediction. A counterargument to this blog might be the idea that Blizzard will swoop in and threaten KeSPA with the shutdown of Proleague/OSL in order to convince them to send players to the GSL. However, I believe that this is extremely unlikely. If I were Blizzard, I would treat that kind of threat as a nuclear option -- one to be used as a last resort. A threat of total shutdown might be the cue for KeSPA to switch away from SC2 entirely. I think Blizzard is afraid of that possibility, given SC2's unpopularity in Korea. Blizzard Korea has also been seemingly ineffectual during this whole fiasco. They were caught completely off guard by KeSPA's actions and they did not release a public statement with any substance during the whole affair. Don't expect Blizzard to ride in on a white horse and save GSL in the event that KeSPA withdraws its players. My theory is:
- Either way, Blizzard would benefit from having a KeSPA dominated Korean scene. I believe that since the big lawsuit was settled last year, KeSPA are paying Blizzard royalties on broadcasting StarCraft, and are probably doing the same with StarCraft II.
- Blizzard would have been more liberal with their usage of the battle.net killswitch on KeSPA but unfortunately for them, League of Legends has become a major threat in the Korean scene. If they stop OSL, The Champions will become the next big league in Korea.
- KeSPA's withdrawal from GSL and eSF's withdrawal from OSL would in turn segregate the Korean league system. It's very likely that OSL would remain almost-exclusively for KeSPA players and GSL for eSF/foreigners.
- The issue might even force KeSPA's wirthdrawal from future Battle.net World Championship Series. They'll probably focus on WCG and the occasional MLG instead or entirely ignore the foreigner scene.
- The only way KeSPA can be defeated is a collective boycott of OnGameNet from Korean netizens. The withdrawal from GSL seemed to piss a lot of people off but I mean if KeSPA really pulled some nasty shit against GOM. I think that this will be the only way to really kick them in the nutsack, if Korean netizens spoke with their wallet, stopped paying for cable or just stopped watching OGN and switched over to GOM. This of course will never happen because internet boycotts have never succeeded and the type of slacktivism that comes out from the world wide web is effectively worthless.
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I think you underestimate Blizzards strength. If Blizzard shuts down the OSL/PL all those SC players are out of work. I do not think the KeSPA players are forced to stay with their respective teams if KeSPA decides to abandon SC2. They most likely would retire, build new teams or get picked up by GOM teams. And I can´t imagine old BW watcher would start watching the low-skill MOBA LoL all of the sudden. They would just switch to GOM as well, after all their production is not worse.
I still think Blizzard sits at the longer end of the stick.
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Gomtv is already providing an inferior product (quality wise) with an inferior media in Korea and ppl want them to succeed?
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If KeSPA is forced to switch games what will the players, their most powerful assets, do? If the stars settle for way less money and a lot start to get into new teams will that be an overall good outcome? Will OGN stay with StarCraft2 and if so how would the license gap be filled? Maybe the GSL open code A qualifier becomes the new courage.
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On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such.
actually atm the better production value goes to GOM by far. Their map previews are amazing, their graphics are cleaner and more modern etc and they broadcast in 16: 9 all the time, OSL only go 16: 9 when in game. GOM is also cheaper despite the fact that they provide the bandwidth themselves instead of using twitch. Unless the quality of play becomes way better in OSL than GSL, I think GOM will remain the main SC2 broadcaster.
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On September 05 2012 00:55 sAsImre wrote: Gomtv is already providing an inferior product (quality wise) with an inferior media in Korea and ppl want them to succeed?
For a global audience actually Gomtv has always provided a superior product. I think the only reason people actually support Kespa is that they were running BW for so long controlling all the big names. If people learn to dissociate games from the organizations then only we can have a proper discussion on this. It seems people wanting Gom to fail are happy with rebroadcasted 240p streams, lack of VODs and totally ignoring any foreign viewers.
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Hey I just wanted to point out that you said all but one GSL player pledged to backup, the last one being Oz. I am pretty certain that he said he would boycott it as well, it's just that Fnatic is not part of the ESF so his name wasn't included in their declaration.
edit: Actually, I guess I am not 100% sure about this.
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i don't see how there's people supporting kespa in this thread and implying we don't need gom
the perks you enjoy currently from gom will be non existant if kespa take over
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OGN might also just be main sponsor of GSL, broadcast it in Korea, let GOM do the international buisness and ditch Kespa.
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So kespa just made up bullshit broadcasting rights? And they got away with it? The hell?! How does that hold up legally?
Either way, as long as GOM can keep the casters they have and still provide high level games, I could care less about the BW-pros. If kespa decide to be dicks again, I won't watch their stuff. There's enough SC2 around as is anyway.
We shouldn't forget that we, the viewers, have leverage too: our eyes and our wallets. I doubt we'd be able to get a large-scale boycott going.. but hey, supposedly miracles can happen.
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I feel like KeSPA players should boycott if things get bad enough. I'm sure they want to be able to participate in multiple leagues. I don't think anything will change with KeSPA unless it comes from within.
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On September 05 2012 00:55 sAsImre wrote: Gomtv is already providing an inferior product (quality wise) with an inferior media in Korea and ppl want them to succeed?
Maybe because GOM don't act like assholes? Ethics/morals/whatever, Frenchmen! Or are you OK the kind of business kespa does/did?
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 04 2012 23:11 ParkwayDrive wrote: arent most of you still assuming that enough kespa players will actually catch up in sc2?
osl is always gonna need GOM players for sc2. GOM wont NEED kespa players for at least 6-12 months. Also, kespa needs their whole teams to be competitive in order for GOM to need them long term. if only one or 2 kespa players truly breakout in this intial 6 month period they may just get picked up by GOM teams eventually if their own kespa team is struggling. and the kespa just dissolves or moves on to something else.
like in the OP, the only tangible asset that kespa has/had are its players. if enough of them dont step up and break into code s/a then they will have less assets and less power. I think kespa and their players believe they will completely dominate esf players in 6 months. Which will allow them to pull out of gom because all the best players will play on OGN anyways.
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I guess the thing that makes me feel that this won't be AS serious as 2007/09 is that Kespa isn't right now getting any larger, isn't snatching up any new talent, whereas the player base outside of Kespa is larger, and has a lot more growth potential. The value of Kespa's talent pool will peak soon (now that Kespa pros are playing sc2 more or less exclusively), and will begin to decline thereafter. As more fresh talent, unafiliated with Kespa continues to enter the scene.
I suppose they could open up their teams, but I think that's a whole new can of worms.
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Great blog. Thanks for writing this! Let's hope that the "Kespa dominance" will be minimal in GSL and that Blizzard actually will stand up for GOM after all their hard work.
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On September 04 2012 23:45 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:24 Chef wrote:I still find the logic a little hard to follow (with regards to the initial hate towards KeSPA). We know that KeSPA is a conglomorate of representatives from all the team, right? We know that two of those teams are MBC Heros and OGN Sparkies, right? So maybe that's only two out of 11 members, but doesn't it seem weird that MBCGame and OGN would be caught off guard by broadcasting rights issues? Surely they were both part of the party selling the rights in the first place... The logic escapes me unless they were excluded from KeSPA and it's not quite all the teams, but just the most powerful ones... But basically what ends up happening is OGN and MBC pay IEG and IEG pays KeSPA, which is 2/8ths OGN and MBC... Well, obviously something like that is exactly what happened, but I wouldn't call it crazy. In my opinon when GOM first started holding its BW leagues it made some pretty big mistakes. Originally it was kind of a one off invitational which was really cool. But then it put a strain on the system and reduced the quality of the whole leagues games. Why did OGN and MBC teams refuse to participate? They put value on the quality of their broadcasted games is another reason outside this IEG business which you've decided is the sole deciding factor. GOM should have set up a really nice league for amateurs, or made semi-professionals out of students. It was definitely wrong for them to take an established player base and weaken the two leagues that had built it up in exchange for almost nothing without telling anyone. Basically they ended up doing that with SC2 in a very legitimate way and have earned their peace. Now you're right, KeSPA is losing its players again, but again the reason to consolidate feels like an issue with quality of games and players. Too many leagues is one of the reasons SC2 is still boring to watch. Players flying all over the world, not practicing enough, getting jet lagged all the time, especially champions. KeSPA can't claim to be the prime source right now, that title basically belongs to GOM, but the more they tighten their reigns and their players become better, the more capable they will be of cutting off events and growing their scene. Maybe that sounds ironic, but there's a difference between sending players to BlizzCON once a year, and sending players every other week half way across the world. I believe in a focused scene. I still don't quite understand the broadcasting rights fiascos with MBC and OGN, but I do think that the reasons for cutting off GOM are more than that. Not to mention GOM has always had lower quality production. On September 04 2012 22:17 Denzil wrote: so how do you propose to stop that happening?
must the gomtv players train even harder and outpace the kespa players hoping Code S still results in majority gomtv?
or should we be showing the kespa team players that the grass is greener on our side come join our teams? Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way. I prefer the scene the way it is rather than focusing it and I think it gains more popularity this way too. People like seeing rivalries/stories like eSF vs KeSPA, Foreigner Hope against many Koreans, Korean Dominance over many Foreigners, their favourite players in their own country or their favourite players tearing it up in other countries. While I understand that having a focused scene would probably create the absolute top quality of games, I'd rather have more opportunities to watch my favourite players while trying to keep as many people interested in SC2 as possible. To you and other users that responded to my post, allow me to illustrate my point in the following way:
After just a few months, the more committed (ie willing to change games) players from KeSPA leagues have already begun to knock out big names that have been around the SC2 scene for ages. The KeSPA Proleague has not even fully switched over to SC2 yet, but obviously the teams are just practicing SC2 (some quote 90%, but realistically they're probably only playing SC2, except for 1 or 2 games before the BW match to do a cheese).
Now, either the KeSPA players will continue to rise in skill (because of the advantages of having a focused scene, good practice habits, little unnecessary travelling), or they won't. If they do, that means you are directly sacrificing the quality of games just because you want this joke of an international scene and you don't really care about the quality of the game itself. Fair enough, I know there's a lot of people who are more in love with the buzz around a sport than the sport itself. However, if they don't prove their superiority from a focused scene etc etc, then they won't have the power and leverage at all to threaten GOM with anything. So basically what I'm saying that if KeSPA CAN do this, then it SHOULD for the sake of the quality of the games (which should have more enduring and passionate popularity than people just watching because hey its vidya games on tv lol). BW was a collosal success because of this and even up to the last OSL it drew in gigantic crowds of people who didn't want it to die. It didn't succeed internationally because there were no scenes like it internationally. SC2 is hardly a success internationally either. Not in the same way we would think of football or hockey as having international success (many leagues in many different countries, varying popularity or not, where players don't have to travel to another country every other week just to compete). It's one thing to have a lot of people all over the world interested in a sport, it's another to have clusters of those people creating leagues in their own countries because they have enough interested players to have a legitimate scene).
We could also argue that the reason KeSPA players caught up so quickly is just because the skill cap is low in SC2, but if we are throwing that argument away for the sake of interesting discussion, then maybe there is hope the game will be less tedious and boring in a year. There is nothing inherently interesting to me about watching people play video games, even if they are white people. I only want to see the best, and I want to see the best devoting their lives to it and giving themselves the best possible chance of competing. Showing up Jet Lagged and using generic strats because of an overworked schedule is not condusive to this.
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I think the problem is that the Korean teams needed money to be financially viable. Given the financial state of the GSL sc2 teams (and how they are constantly leaking players to richer foreign teams), I think it is safe to assure that running a SC2 pro team is not what you would invest in if you wanted to make a profit.
On one side, a team can try to acquire more sponsors - but that can be a difficult task. It is quite obvious that the teams would turn to another major party that makes money out of the teams' existences: the boardcasters/league runners for additional funding.
While GOM appear to be quite helpful to the existing sc2 teams, I somewhat doubt they want to all of a sudden financial sponsor the sudden influx of kespa teams.
If there is a way for the teams to blackmail Blizzard, I bet they would (as the sc2 progaming scene is one giant advertisement system for the game). Unfortunately for them, Blizzard holds the final trump card and just outright ban the broadcast of their intellectual property.
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Things finally makes sense now :D thank you so much motbob!
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On September 05 2012 03:51 Hikari wrote: I think the problem is that the Korean teams needed money to be financially viable. Given the financial state of the GSL sc2 teams (and how they are constantly leaking players to richer foreign teams), I think it is safe to assure that running a SC2 pro team is not what you would invest in if you wanted to make a profit.
On one side, a team can try to acquire more sponsors - but that can be a difficult task. It is quite obvious that the teams would turn to another major party that makes money out of the teams' existences: the boardcasters/league runners for additional funding.
While GOM appear to be quite helpful to the existing sc2 teams, I somewhat doubt they want to all of a sudden financial sponsor the sudden influx of kespa teams.
If there is a way for the teams to blackmail Blizzard, I bet they would (as the sc2 progaming scene is one giant advertisement system for the game). Unfortunately for them, Blizzard holds the final trump card and just outright ban the broadcast of their intellectual property.
Doubt they hold the final trump card. They did go through all that trouble to lure TBLS to Blizzcon this year. Pretty sure they want the KeSPA players.
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What if this whole fiasco was engineered from the beginning to propel a brand-boosting titanic struggle between two franchises where the element of worth and financial power is dictated solely on the basis of skill? Where the players play for a nihilistic system of creation and destruction to ensure that the entertained's eyes and pockets are in majority possession of the franchise?
Like some sort of half-assed conspiracy?
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The amount of control that Kespa has over its players is a little sickening tbh. Players should have more freedom to participate in whatever tournaments they want.
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On September 05 2012 00:51 Aunvilgod wrote: I think you underestimate Blizzards strength. If Blizzard shuts down the OSL/PL all those SC players are out of work. I do not think the KeSPA players are forced to stay with their respective teams if KeSPA decides to abandon SC2. They most likely would retire, build new teams or get picked up by GOM teams. And I can´t imagine old BW watcher would start watching the low-skill MOBA LoL all of the sudden. They would just switch to GOM as well, after all their production is not worse.
I still think Blizzard sits at the longer end of the stick. The thing is, the "old BW watcher" you are referring to are already watching LoL. Why? Because they are playing it themselves. Why? Because it's a fun game to play with your friends. It's even more fun to be competitive with your friends. Thats why everyone and their mother have at least tried LoL in Korea by now. Like every Starcraft progamer are playing the game. Pro's have even quit Starcraft to play LoL full time instead. And some players have stated that when they retire they will play LoL.
I'm pretty sure that Korea is kinda tired of Starcraft already, hense the big bang of LoL all of the sudden. And I don't blame them at all on any of this. If they want to play Starcraft they will just play BW (like they are already) because it's the better game and it's alot more FUN to play. SC2 isn't fun to play, it's frustrating to play and tbh it isn't fun to watch (compared to other games out there), something I'm obviously not alone to think since sc2 is dead in Korea and even in the west people are starting to fade away more from sc2 to LoL, Dota 2 and various FPS/MMO's.
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What I have seen of OSL so far has not impressed. How is it that people were able to take a competition seriously when it comes down to round robin Best of 1s? In a team league (all-kill format, not proleague format) that is understandable. But in what is purported to be a serious competition/tournament? It's ridiculous. There's a reason GSL went away from that round robin best of 1 format they had with code S awhile ago.
And I don't think I'm alone. All the time I heard from BW fans about how awesome the production for OSL/Proleague is, but I don't see it. It's on par, if not below with the presentation of production of the GSL. Maybe the production values on the actual TV feed going out to Korea is amazing, but not what I've seen on the twitch stream. If It does come down to KeSPA vs ESF or OSL/PL vs. GSL/GSTL then I think by a wide margin that the international community will back ESF/GSL. And considering that SC2 is absolutely nowhere near BW-levels of fandom in Korea, both need the international audience.
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Interesting writeup, think you missed the larger point though that this time around blizzard explicitly stipulated broadcast rights, so the whole problem last time of who has the 'right' to broadcast SC shouldn't come up.
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wowow i totally didnt understand anything of the kespa/gom dispute and i thought i did o_O ty for enlightening me
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It's gonna be a war, no doubt about that. I think in the end it will work out, though only after numerous near-misses and various threats are made of course
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On September 05 2012 06:43 Megiddosc wrote: What I have seen of OSL so far has not impressed. How is it that people were able to take a competition seriously when it comes down to round robin Best of 1s? In a team league (all-kill format, not proleague format) that is understandable. But in what is purported to be a serious competition/tournament? It's ridiculous. There's a reason GSL went away from that round robin best of 1 format they had with code S awhile ago.
And I don't think I'm alone. All the time I heard from BW fans about how awesome the production for OSL/Proleague is, but I don't see it. It's on par, if not below with the presentation of production of the GSL. Maybe the production values on the actual TV feed going out to Korea is amazing, but not what I've seen on the twitch stream. If It does come down to KeSPA vs ESF or OSL/PL vs. GSL/GSTL then I think by a wide margin that the international community will back ESF/GSL. And considering that SC2 is absolutely nowhere near BW-levels of fandom in Korea, both need the international audience.
most of those complaints are from those watching the english stream. just watch the korean stream or chinese vods which are simply dubbed over the korean vods.
bo1 round robin has worked for OSL for 12 years. plus it's broadcast on TV, there isn't a feasible way of playing bo3s for the ro16 without greatly increasing how long the OSL runs for plus broadcast time. GOM doesn't have any of those problems because it's just an internet stream.
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5003 Posts
Your story is kind of wrong
Fast forward to 2012. An identical situation is taking place. GOM is not paying IEG (although I'm not sure if IEG has rights to anything but Proleague anymore) and is certainly not paying KeSPA. So KeSPA, naturally, withdrew their players from GSL. Once again, their assets were being used in a way that did not benefit them beyond sponsorship exposure. But this time, they had to back down. They no longer held all the cards. GSL would have survived without KeSPA players, and OGN would have been dealt a crippling blow without half of its Ro16.
Pretty sure IEG never had rights on OSL or MSL (you imply otherwise). The reason why GOM-Blizzard stepped in in 2007 was cause Blizzard was pissed that KeSPA sold broadcasting rights to IEG. Basically KeSPA isn't dumb enough to force GOM to pay IEG, since it was a right related to proleague rather than anything else.... under what justification can they pull that off? Think about it.
It was something related to Proleague and Proleague only... why the fuck are you implying KeSPA is power playing GOM over Proleague broadcasting rights? My guess is that KeSPA power played GOM cause this is the last time they will have any leverage, ever, cause chances are a a team or two are going to disband after this season of PL and PL is going to be weaker and weaker.
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We need to bring Kespa down. BURN THIS MUTHA FUTHA DOWN!
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Well, my personal hope is the the new SC2 players will be strong enough to give the eSF enough leverage.
Something that I don't really understand though is why are the KeSPA players an asset of KeSPA? What is there to prevent them leaving a KeSPA team and joining an established SC2 team when their contract comes up? Or possibly before depending on the contract.
I'm sure a lot of this must be a cultural thing, because I can't imagine a similar situation in NA/EU where players would be willing to be bossed about by KeSPA (if indeed they are and I understand the situation correctly).
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Wow, I can see why many people think KeSPA is the bad guy. Seeing that they do need the money to run pro-gaming houses, it does make sense. I hope there's a way so that KeSPA players can't shut down GOM and that the eSF stays strong but fair.
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I kind of agree with Milkis. SC2 is a comparative flop in Korea (to BW), so the only thing they should bother targeting is foreigner interest and foreigner support. That's where the money is -- for now. By switching over to SC2, Kespa doomed themselves nationally but re-opened new international interest. So until they prove they have the best players and the best leagues, they can't strong-arm GOM, imo. But if they can't do it soon, more teams will disband, players will retire, and Kespa will be history. Tick tock, everyone.
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On September 05 2012 08:36 Deadeight wrote: Well, my personal hope is the the new SC2 players will be strong enough to give the eSF enough leverage.
Something that I don't really understand though is why are the KeSPA players an asset of KeSPA? What is there to prevent them leaving a KeSPA team and joining an established SC2 team when their contract comes up? Or possibly before depending on the contract.
I'm sure a lot of this must be a cultural thing, because I can't imagine a similar situation in NA/EU where players would be willing to be bossed about by KeSPA (if indeed they are and I understand the situation correctly).
KESPA pays their more high profile players actual legitimate contracts that have a monetary value attached to it. this is why KESPA has much more control over its players and why KESPA players are not likely to go to non-KESPA teams unless they're Team B quality
non-KESPA Korean teams do not really have anything similar to what KESPA teams can offer in terms of legitimate player contracts
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That "nuclear" option would never be used. Kespa probably already had some sort of agreement with Blizzard, about not shutting down its SC2 league, before they jumped in. There is no way Kespa would risk letting Blizzard holding its card in the first place.
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Having read every single post thus far, I think it's safe to say that we're pretty split among what we want, as well as think will happen. I personally believe it inevitable that the StarCraft Franchise will eventually fall as a premier eSport. That does not mean to say it will disappear completely -- rather that it will be replaced and shoved out of the spotlight by either LoL or DotA 2 (or both).
As it is, KeSPA and GOM both need each other. Let's not be dumb here, guys, they both know this. We aren't spectators watching a movie with dramatic irony where we know things they don't -- they know more about this situation than all of us. I personally think that they're both trying to find leverage over the other; it would be the better business decision. Owning the entire global scene is the goal of any eSports organization, as that brings in the greatest monetary value, quality of game as well as allowing you to control everything.
The people with the real leverage here, are the players. Let's not forget that spectators watch SC2 to watch them.
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I think that blizzard will take a far more active role in sc2 than they did with BW in regards to legislating/negotiating terms of use of their game.
This will probably be for the best of all players and organizations.
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On September 05 2012 15:36 Talack wrote: I think that blizzard will take a far more active role in sc2 than they did with BW in regards to legislating/negotiating terms of use of their game.
This will probably be for the best of all players and organizations. Blizzard have no clue wtf they're doing regarding leagues/teams/negotiations and have proven it numerous times in the past.
Sc2 korean scene is a flop right now, comparing it to all the other games played right now competively. KeSPA taking things in hand can either make it all work out very well, and put alot of interest back on the game, or it can fail miserably and the korean sc2 will keep doing what it did until now, slowly decline. Either way, foreign scene shouldn't be affected too much, exept maybe more white guys at american tournaments
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On September 04 2012 22:24 Chef wrote: Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way.
This is generally wrong in my opinion.
Kespa sees no reason for foreigners to be a part of SC at all. The vast majority of the market is in Korean BW fans anyways, as long as they transition Kespa is happy. Foreign (non-Korea/China) fans are just a side salad.
On September 05 2012 10:39 zakmaa wrote: The people with the real leverage here, are the players. Let's not forget that spectators watch SC2 to watch them.
"The Proletariat will RISE!" Was all I could think of when I read that kekeke
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On September 05 2012 06:43 Megiddosc wrote: What I have seen of OSL so far has not impressed. How is it that people were able to take a competition seriously when it comes down to round robin Best of 1s? In a team league (all-kill format, not proleague format) that is understandable. But in what is purported to be a serious competition/tournament? It's ridiculous. There's a reason GSL went away from that round robin best of 1 format they had with code S awhile ago.
And I don't think I'm alone. All the time I heard from BW fans about how awesome the production for OSL/Proleague is, but I don't see it. It's on par, if not below with the presentation of production of the GSL. Maybe the production values on the actual TV feed going out to Korea is amazing, but not what I've seen on the twitch stream. If It does come down to KeSPA vs ESF or OSL/PL vs. GSL/GSTL then I think by a wide margin that the international community will back ESF/GSL. And considering that SC2 is absolutely nowhere near BW-levels of fandom in Korea, both need the international audience.
There is a league that is starting play today in their new season. It's called the NFL.
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United States1719 Posts
OP sounds like he's hitting somewhere close to the head of the nail; I won't comment on the analogy made between the broadcasting rights fiasco circa 2007, but I'd just like to reiterate one important assumption that is holding together Kespa's plans: that the elephants will eventually trample over the bears. It's somewhat of a gamble, and without the elephants' dominance, Kespa holds no negotiating power over eSF, but it's a plausible scenario, given the higher echelon of eSF consists of former dishwashers at BW team houses. Plus, Kespa has a nice contingency plan called League of Legends, while eSF has none. That said, I don't really see Kespa having mercy on eSF even if they had cooperated nicely and not threatened to pull their players from the OSL. I just see SC2, along with the entire franchise being phased out from Korea eventually, due to low viewership.
It was already difficult to maintain interest in a game that once captured the entire younger generation's interest as people started to grow apathetic about it; it will be many folds harder to do so for a game that has a large anti-fanbase from its predecessor actively antagonizing the game.
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On September 06 2012 01:34 ShatterZer0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 22:24 Chef wrote: Unless you are a huge fan of GOM, there's no much reason to want to stop it from happening. SC2 stands to gain a lot from a focused scene. This is KeSPA saying we want to do things right instead of letting GOM fuck up everything. Still KeSPA has the recognize at least for now that they need GOM players to legitimize the talents of their own. Once it becomes clear KeSPA pros are competeting at or above the level of Code S, they'll do what they can to fix the scene if Blizzard doesn't get in the way. This is generally wrong in my opinion. Kespa sees no reason for foreigners to be a part of SC at all. The vast majority of the market is in Korean BW fans anyways, as long as they transition Kespa is happy. Foreign (non-Korea/China) fans are just a side salad.
When it comes to the players and teams, Kespa only sees no reason to bend over backwards to accomodate foreigners at the expense of their policies, integrity of their leagues, and such. Which is a sentiment that I feel any honest fan of the game should appreciate. Foreign players were welcome in Brood War, and they would be welcome in SC2 as well - but only under the same rules as the Korean players are.
As for the foreign audience, they would be fools to ignore it. Just because that was the case in Brood War - and there were many reasons for it to be the case in Brood War - doesn't mean they will ignore the existing fan base in the west that is now much more accessible. If we're being honest, as dedicated as it was, there really wasn't much of a large foreign fan base in Brood War to reach out to, and it was reasonable for Kespa to not have an interest in building things up from the scratch to accommodate and grow that base. Afterall, they didn't do that in Korea either, they merely took over an already established and booming competitive scene that was thriving for years before the corporate sponsors moved in.
Starcraft 2 is different in the sense that such a scene does now exist in the west, and Kespa has already proven that they're willing to integrate it in their League of Legends events. Of course the integration will be more fair from a competitive point of view and not the whole "we'll do everything for those foreign views/hits" approach GOM has that I always found to be semi-desperate and dishonest.
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On September 05 2012 00:55 sAsImre wrote: Gomtv is already providing an inferior product (quality wise) with an inferior media in Korea and ppl want them to succeed?
It's true. I'm really happy Kespa provides us with SC2 in good old 320:240 resolution. Who needs HQ when you can feel all nostalgic, it's so much better.
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wow that was a very interesting read. Your reasons really do explain the actions behind kespa. I wish this sort of thing didnt happen >.>
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On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2.
But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed.
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On September 08 2012 21:01 B.I.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2. But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed. If you read the OP more closely, you'll see that KeSPA is basically the Korean corporates. The best players are Korean. Kill KeSPA and they'll just figure out a way to dominate Korean players in some other way. For example, I wouldn't put it past Korea launch an investigation into "match-fixing" if a foreign house tries to muscle its way into acquiring the top Korean pros; I wouldn't be surprised if an online astroturfing campaign was launched the sully the names of one of TBLS if they dared switch to a foreign house. And so long as the top talent is monopolized by Korean houses, then eSports is owned by the Koreans.
It's a similar phenomenon to how the mob controls the New Jersey/New York real estate market--they don't finance development; they just control the construction unions, which means that not a single square of concrete can be laid without mob approval, or else the entire project just grinds to a halt with go-slow work tactics and sabotage. The same thing will eventually happen to any non-Korean-controlled top league: while the corporates might be happy now to see foreigners make money off Korean players, once those leagues have gained enough visibility overseas, they'll twist some arms to own the leagues again. And the really sad thing is, foreign fans can't do anything about it.
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On September 08 2012 21:10 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 21:01 B.I.G. wrote:On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2. But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed. If you read the OP more closely, you'll see that KeSPA is basically the Korean corporates. The best players are Korean. Kill KeSPA and they'll just figure out a way to dominate Korean players in some other way. For example, I wouldn't put it past Korea launch an investigation into "match-fixing" if a foreign house tries to muscle its way into acquiring the top Korean pros; I wouldn't be surprised if an online astroturfing campaign was launched the sully the names of one of TBLS if they dared switch to a foreign house. And so long as the top talent is monopolized by Korean houses, then eSports is owned by the Koreans. It's a similar phenomenon to how the mob controls the New Jersey/New York real estate market--they don't finance development; they just control the construction unions, which means that not a single square of concrete can be laid without mob approval, or else the entire project just grinds to a halt with go-slow work tactics and sabotage. The same thing will eventually happen to any non-Korean-controlled top league: while the corporates might be happy now to see foreigners make money off Korean players, once those leagues have gained enough visibility overseas, they'll twist some arms to own the leagues again. And the really sad thing is, foreign fans can't do anything about it. I know what the deal is, and I still think we should (try to) kill Kespa. Seems to me like its all up to the Kespa players. Only they have the power to give Kespa the finger and abondon ship.
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On September 09 2012 01:19 B.I.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 21:10 Shady Sands wrote:On September 08 2012 21:01 B.I.G. wrote:On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2. But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed. If you read the OP more closely, you'll see that KeSPA is basically the Korean corporates. The best players are Korean. Kill KeSPA and they'll just figure out a way to dominate Korean players in some other way. For example, I wouldn't put it past Korea launch an investigation into "match-fixing" if a foreign house tries to muscle its way into acquiring the top Korean pros; I wouldn't be surprised if an online astroturfing campaign was launched the sully the names of one of TBLS if they dared switch to a foreign house. And so long as the top talent is monopolized by Korean houses, then eSports is owned by the Koreans. It's a similar phenomenon to how the mob controls the New Jersey/New York real estate market--they don't finance development; they just control the construction unions, which means that not a single square of concrete can be laid without mob approval, or else the entire project just grinds to a halt with go-slow work tactics and sabotage. The same thing will eventually happen to any non-Korean-controlled top league: while the corporates might be happy now to see foreigners make money off Korean players, once those leagues have gained enough visibility overseas, they'll twist some arms to own the leagues again. And the really sad thing is, foreign fans can't do anything about it. I know what the deal is, and I still think we should (try to) kill Kespa. Seems to me like its all up to the Kespa players. Only they have the power to give Kespa the finger and abondon ship. Why? Just so those corporates can infiltrate eSF lol?
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On September 09 2012 01:19 B.I.G. wrote: Seems to me like its all up to the Kespa players. Only they have the power to give Kespa the finger and abondon ship.
Awesome. Now if only they had any interest in doing that.
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United States1719 Posts
On September 09 2012 01:19 B.I.G. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 21:10 Shady Sands wrote:On September 08 2012 21:01 B.I.G. wrote:On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2. But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed. If you read the OP more closely, you'll see that KeSPA is basically the Korean corporates. The best players are Korean. Kill KeSPA and they'll just figure out a way to dominate Korean players in some other way. For example, I wouldn't put it past Korea launch an investigation into "match-fixing" if a foreign house tries to muscle its way into acquiring the top Korean pros; I wouldn't be surprised if an online astroturfing campaign was launched the sully the names of one of TBLS if they dared switch to a foreign house. And so long as the top talent is monopolized by Korean houses, then eSports is owned by the Koreans. It's a similar phenomenon to how the mob controls the New Jersey/New York real estate market--they don't finance development; they just control the construction unions, which means that not a single square of concrete can be laid without mob approval, or else the entire project just grinds to a halt with go-slow work tactics and sabotage. The same thing will eventually happen to any non-Korean-controlled top league: while the corporates might be happy now to see foreigners make money off Korean players, once those leagues have gained enough visibility overseas, they'll twist some arms to own the leagues again. And the really sad thing is, foreign fans can't do anything about it. I know what the deal is, and I still think we should (try to) kill Kespa. Seems to me like its all up to the Kespa players. Only they have the power to give Kespa the finger and abondon ship. yea that makes sense, if i had a 50k+ salary (200k+ in the case of bisu, flash) from KeSPA i would DEFINITELY want to abandon ship to eSF and play for free
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On September 04 2012 12:59 motbob wrote: Note: This blog is quite late. I had the idea to write this right after the "KeSPA will send players to GSL" announcement was made, but because of work and The International 2, I never got around to it.
I haven't heard anything about the KeSPA vs GOM conflict since KeSPA seemingly caved last week. For those who have forgotten what happened, KeSPA originally stated that they would not send players to GSL 4 (the one that just started) or GSL 5. A group of GSL players led by Nestea countered by threatening to pull out of the OSL; all but one GSL player pledged to leave. KeSPA then made a statement promising to send players to GSL 5, but that was not enough to placate the GSL players, who continued to hold out. Finally, KeSPA conceded completely and sent 90 players to the GSL 4 prelims (and also allowed Jaedong and by.Sun to compete in Code S). But in this blog I'm going to explain why KeSPA will withdraw its players from the GSL as soon as it feels it can do so without repercussions.
In comments on the situation from TL and reddit, it was interesting that no one was speculating on KeSPA's motives. Or at least they were doing so vaguely. "They want a monopoly on the big name players." "They want to shut out anyone who doesn't dance to their fiddle." Every post that tried to explain KeSPA's actions seemed confusing to me.
So I'm going to try to explain the intent behind KeSPA's actions. By looking at what KeSPA wants and at what assets they have to help them get what they want, we'll be able to see that this conflict between GOM and KeSPA has not gone away and is in danger of splitting the SC2 scene in two in the coming months.
Before we begin, it's important to realize that KeSPA and the Proleague proteams are essentially one and the same. The decision-making body in KeSPA is made up of people from all the different sponsors/owners of proteams.
Let's flash back to 2007. IEG (International Esports Group) was a company sponsoring the proteam eSTRO. One day, KeSPA decided that they, as the administrators of all SC:BW events, owned the rights to broadcast such events. They put the rights up for auction for a three year period. OGN and MBC neglected to bid on those rights (because they did not recognize KeSPA's legitimacy in claiming those rights) and IEG snapped them up. A few months later, IEG started negotiations with MBC/OGN, stating that those two broadcasting companies needed to pay IEG for the rights to run leagues. During this time, KeSPA was strongly supporting IEG in their negotiations. MBC and OGN fought back, refusing IEG's demands outright, and talks broke down repeatedly. But when KeSPA pulled all of their players from the MSL qualifiers, OGN and MBC quickly caved. They simply couldn't run their tournaments without KeSPA players.
So KeSPA wanted money to help offset the cost of running proteams. They used their assets (the players on their proteams) to accomplish the goal of pressuring OGN/MBC to give them money. That statement might make no sense since OGN/MBC were paying IEG, not KeSPA itself. But KeSPA needed OGN/MBC to pay IEG, or broadcasting rights to KeSPA-run leagues would be essentially worthless. It's not like any company would purchase broadcasting rights from KeSPA if they had no guarantee that they'd be able to make the broadcasting companies pay up.
After the fracas in 2007, there was stability in the ESPORTS ecosystem. The broadcasting companies essentially paid KeSPA via IEG, and KeSPA used the money to run the proteam houses. Not a bad system overall, and not a system that casts KeSPA in such a bad light, I think. Running a proteam house is expensive!
But once GOM entered the scene, a wrench was thrown into the mix. GOM started a brand new SC:BW league in 2008 and refused to pay IEG a dime for broadcasting rights. Three teams boycotted the first GOM Classic Starleague: eSTRO, MBCgame HERO, and OGN Sparkyz. It shouldn't be difficult to work out exactly why each of those teams felt that it wasn't in their best interest to participate (recall that eSTRO was sponsored by IEG).
GOM preferred to deal with Blizzard, who they saw as the legitimate holders of Starcraft broadcasting rights. This created a problem for KeSPA. Its players (aka its assets) were being used for the benefit of another corporation without anything in return beyond sponsor exposure. The fact that GOM was not paying IEG meant that the value of KeSPA's broadcasting rights was not increasing. GOM paying Blizzard also set a troubling precedent for that KeSPA desperately hoped OGN and MBC would not follow. So KeSPA teams gradually began withdrawing from the league, citing scheduling issues / overwork for the players. In the third season of the league, SKT1 withdrew. Before the fourth season could start, KT, STX Soul, and Airforce ACE withdrew. Blizzard entered into negotiations with KeSPA to try to save the league, but the talks failed. In late 2009, with only five teams participating, the GSL ceased to be.
Fast forward to 2012. An identical situation is taking place. GOM is not paying IEG (although I'm not sure if IEG has rights to anything but Proleague anymore) and is certainly not paying KeSPA. So KeSPA, naturally, withdrew their players from GSL. Once again, their assets were being used in a way that did not benefit them beyond sponsorship exposure. But this time, they had to back down. They no longer held all the cards. GSL would have survived without KeSPA players, and OGN would have been dealt a crippling blow without half of its Ro16.
In six months, what will the situation be like? If you're a believer in the superiority of KeSPA players, you might expect half of Code S to be made up of them by then. That means the blade that Nestea and co. had at the neck of OGN will be turned on GOM.
Just like in 2007, KeSPA will be able to use their players as leverage in talks with GOM/Blizzard. The threat of withdrawal from GSL will be very real. KeSPA will be able to make new demands from a position of power. And if past relations between Blizzard/GOM and KeSPA are any indication, negotiations will fail and KeSPA will withdraw its players as a result. Last week, KeSPA chose to announce its non-participation in GSL right before the OSL Ro16, leaving them open to a counter-boycott. Next time around, they can choose better timing for their announcement of withdrawal.
So that's my prediction. A counterargument to this blog might be the idea that Blizzard will swoop in and threaten KeSPA with the shutdown of Proleague/OSL in order to convince them to send players to the GSL. However, I believe that this is extremely unlikely. If I were Blizzard, I would treat that kind of threat as a nuclear option -- one to be used as a last resort. A threat of total shutdown might be the cue for KeSPA to switch away from SC2 entirely. I think Blizzard is afraid of that possibility, given SC2's unpopularity in Korea. Blizzard Korea has also been seemingly ineffectual during this whole fiasco. They were caught completely off guard by KeSPA's actions and they did not release a public statement with any substance during the whole affair. Don't expect Blizzard to ride in on a white horse and save GSL in the event that KeSPA withdraws its players.
One of the better posts I've seen in a while that actually ties the history together so people can understand how we got today like that other guy who's practicing Law. Hopefully he gets to read this.
On September 05 2012 03:51 Hikari wrote: I think the problem is that the Korean teams needed money to be financially viable. Given the financial state of the GSL sc2 teams (and how they are constantly leaking players to richer foreign teams), I think it is safe to assure that running a SC2 pro team is not what you would invest in if you wanted to make a profit.
One of the many reasons we see KeSPA say non-profit. As they say, the money they do get goes right back into the system.
On September 04 2012 19:06 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 18:17 Nikon wrote: The question is: why do we need GomTV at all? KeSPA has opened up to foreigner exposure now, and they're less likely to make shady bussiness decisions when concerning the customer. Plus they have OGN at their back, thus getting better production values and such.
And they have the more recognised players. Say what you want to say about Iron and ZergBong, but even SC2 viewers know the TBLS, Fantasy and such. GomTV is as needed as MBC was. a second broadcasting station is a good thing
Everyone should know by now where I stand on this issue.
Damn the executives at MBC. -_-
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On September 09 2012 06:07 rotinegg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2012 01:19 B.I.G. wrote:On September 08 2012 21:10 Shady Sands wrote:On September 08 2012 21:01 B.I.G. wrote:On September 04 2012 13:34 babylon wrote: Sometimes I wonder if the effort put into promoting SC2 in Korea is worth it. I almost feel as if Blizzard is fighting a losing battle there against a population that's bitter about the death of its "national sport" -- honestly, I'm not convinced KeSPA forcing a switch can revitalize the scene -- and that their efforts are better spent promoting their product elsewhere (i.e. China). Sure, they would be competing with massively popular games, but tbh, they'll be competing with LoL and DotA (2) everywhere they go in the future as well. Might as well try to exploit China's massive potential while you're at it and not have to fight with KeSPA.
Not saying the Chinese scene doesn't also have its own problems, but certainly it's preferable to trying to keep KeSPA on a leash and hoping against hope that the GSL doesn't go under from the pressure. If it died out, its obviously nowhere near a "national sport". I don't think the lack of SC2 succes in Korea is due to some bitter BW players. Heck, not even the pro players themselves are too bitter to switch to SC2. But apart from that I think the community should snap Kespa's neck now that they're at their weakest, or I'm pretty damn sure they will drag down this entire thing we built down with their greed. If you read the OP more closely, you'll see that KeSPA is basically the Korean corporates. The best players are Korean. Kill KeSPA and they'll just figure out a way to dominate Korean players in some other way. For example, I wouldn't put it past Korea launch an investigation into "match-fixing" if a foreign house tries to muscle its way into acquiring the top Korean pros; I wouldn't be surprised if an online astroturfing campaign was launched the sully the names of one of TBLS if they dared switch to a foreign house. And so long as the top talent is monopolized by Korean houses, then eSports is owned by the Koreans. It's a similar phenomenon to how the mob controls the New Jersey/New York real estate market--they don't finance development; they just control the construction unions, which means that not a single square of concrete can be laid without mob approval, or else the entire project just grinds to a halt with go-slow work tactics and sabotage. The same thing will eventually happen to any non-Korean-controlled top league: while the corporates might be happy now to see foreigners make money off Korean players, once those leagues have gained enough visibility overseas, they'll twist some arms to own the leagues again. And the really sad thing is, foreign fans can't do anything about it. I know what the deal is, and I still think we should (try to) kill Kespa. Seems to me like its all up to the Kespa players. Only they have the power to give Kespa the finger and abondon ship. yea that makes sense, if i had a 50k+ salary (200k+ in the case of bisu, flash) from KeSPA i would DEFINITELY want to abandon ship to eSF and play for free Which is precisely why KeSPA or whatever incarnation comes along will always own the players...
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I really hate how things are, this whole situation stinks IMO. I would prefer it if Blizzard did as they did in BW and just said "fuck it", and threw out this whole notion of "broadcasting rights". It really only hurts the scene. Blizzard should stick to making games and selling games. All this bickering over rights is hurting everyone. The popularity and exposure for sc2 would grow more if anyone could run lan events anywhere and broadcast events without interference.
They are going to run sc2 into the ground with these current shenanigans. Eventually, another company is going to emerge that makes better games, has the passion that blizzard once did, and understands how good it is to let esports ignite, unhampered. This greed will be their undoing.
In a way thats what LOL has done, but LOL doesn't fit quite the same niche as SC. If a company like riot makes a solid game similar to starcrafts playstyle, it will probably kill blizzard's RTS monopoly.
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