There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Depression, in my experience, is the diminishment of these feelings. When you do something that should make you happy by all reasonable measures, you aren't happy. When you do something that should make you sad, you don't feel any worse. When you do nothing, you don't feel any different. A lack of those fundamental feelings is to blame.
There is no way to think yourself out of it because the solution is irrational. They are feelings that healthy humans have, nothing more than that. Willpower is your only tool here. You can irrationally will yourself to seek solutions. You can practice clever ways to coax those feelings back into existence. You can take medicine to promote those feelings. In any case those feelings will probably return, as depression is typically episodic, and you can start being happy again by doing what's good and doing what's right and being successful.
But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it. And no matter what you do or think, your happiness is gone. Habits may carry you a while, but all motivation has vanished. You won't feel like pursuing your own happiness, but you'll feel a lot of other shit that's not so pleasant. You'll pretend nothing has changed, but it's just an act. You'll stretch your willpower to cover the void. If it's enough to bridge the gap, then congratulations on being functioning. If not, then welcome to the club.
P.S. I'm not suicidal. Don't worry about that. I've received a lot of messages from sufferers of depression, thanking me and wishing me well. Though I've responded to very few, I do feel a responsibility. And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself. I've willed myself to behave and focus for long enough to write this to remind you that our feelings are diminished, not gone. Even as I write this, I feel a spark, and I hope this reminder gives you one too.
I feel this, at the end of the day it's what's in our heads that people don't usually see that is most important to us. And often times, all the talking and discussion in the world doesn't make us feel any more enlightened or any less confused.
Edit: Here's something I posted on another website...
Maybe because you feel like you aren't making a difference in the world. And that's perfectly fine, most of us are born and we die and no one (except our family) ever remembers our name or who we were. Most of us are expendable, anything we can do chances are there is someone halfway across the globe who will do it better for cheaper. That's just a harsh reality of life. You have to accept it.
Life isn't a race, to be the best or the most famous or the richest. So don't do anything with the sole intention of trying to change the world, it's not going to happen like that. Try being happy and success will come to you. You might not have all the answers, now or ever, but everyone needs a reason to keep going.
I find that pursuing long term goals that take great effort is often still worth it in the end as it provides me with happiness/money/security/etc. Maybe thats just because I have become accustomed to ignoring the ultimate futility of life.
Anyway, you are my favorite player on my favorite team and I wish you all the happiness in the world. Go watch a funny movie with your wife/gf or something .
Hope you feel better. I don't think I can comment on the content you have specifically in this blog but for what it's worth, some of what you're writing is dead-on for me too. For what it's worth, I think you're a chill guy and wish you the best. It's a way of thinking as well, I'd say. For sure in one way, all the happiness you've had can seem to disappear in an instant, sometimes when you're so happy. But at the same time, the joy you can get from accomplishing something or just for being alive and being able to talk with so many amazing people is always there for the taking, and the triumph can make all your struggles worth it.
What bothers me is that the episodic mood swings of depression never follow a logical pattern. You drift in and out seemingly randomly. I could feel fantastic for a week and then hate myself for months.
When you try to work towards something during the happy week just to have it crash and burn the second you get hit again is beyond frustrating. Then you feel like shit.
As an aspiring pro gamer who is constantly held back by horrible depression that feels more like a bad excuse to everyone else, I definitely give you more credit that most other people who cannot relate. GL.
How about because you already are? You ask why live. I ask why change your state of being? If I cannot logically give an answer to the former then you cannot logically give me an answer to the latter. At least not one that meets your definition of "good reason".
Really though, everyone lives for something different. For you I would hope that you want to live for your wife, and for yourself, and for whoever else you love. (you love yourself right? I don't think you can love someone else until you love yourself, help me out if you think I'm wrong).
If you know what you're living for then the question becomes quite ridiculous, and perhaps that's why answers are irrational. Life isn't rational to begin with, so why should we have a rational reason for wanting to continue to live?
On October 09 2012 13:39 travis wrote: What point to life would you possibly expect, lol.
You get hungry right? Do you go eat when you get hungry?
Let go of your longing and just be happy with what is right in front of your face!
Kind of silly that you say that when I've had many days where I've gone without eating specifically because I've hated myself.
I did that too -- back in my high school "emo days." Once I got off my pity wagon it got better. The problem is that it's so easy to fall right back into the self-pity rut -- it requires major lifestyle adjustments, not just attitude checks. Many people just wait for things to improve with as little effort as possible, or use pharmaceuticals without any additional counseling or therapy, and this is why they remain blue. Then there's all of the people that have lots of reasons to be sad: rape, molestation, death of loved ones, poverty, abuse... They have a tougher climb then we'll ever know?
There is no point in life? There really isn't. And once I told myself that life became a lot easier haha Now I just live day-to-day, try new things, see what's up. It's better than my old strategy, I'll tell you that.
I watched my favorite baseball team blow a 3-run lead in the bottom of the 13th inning to the New York Yankees, and I felt like this was certainly the end of the season. 'Depressed' is definitely one way to describe how that felt. After that loss, they won 9 out of their next 11, and won the American League West Division which NOBODY including myself thought would be possible at the beginning of the season. The past is always true, we have to accept this, but the up-shot is that the future never actually happens (or else it would be the present). Take some time now to enjoy yourself, and I'm confident the rest will return as well. Best wishes, hope to see you performing at a top level soon-- I know you have the talent. You have it as much as any Starcraft player I've ever seen play BW or SC2 or any video game for that matter. Nony/Tyler 2012
1: Why would you need a "meaning" when you can master magnificent things like musical instruments, or StarCraft: Brood War? Those things are motivation enough to get out of bed.
2: Why would you need a "meaning" when you can try to understand the universe? You yourself are part of the universe, and you were created in the universe, by the universe. When you investigate and understand the universe, something self-aware and conscious that was created by something that is not conscious, asks what the universe is and how it works. So it's actually the universe asking itself what it is, and attempting to answer it, in the form of you. And that's pretty fucking awesome.
3: Concepts like " good ", " bad "; " evil ", " healthy " and " unhealthy " are words that humans attached to existing things. What is health, when you really think about it? It is certain configurations of protons, neutrons, and electrons in a creature's body. And even though the standards for what is healthy change over time (Dying at the age of 50 is unhealthy today, but wasn't in the past), we can OBJECTIVELY say that some creatures are more healthy than others. Even though we invented the concept of health, and even though the standards for health change over time, it is a fact that some creatures are more healthy than others. The word " health " is describing something that would exist whether the word existed or not. Whether humans would observe it, or understand it, or not.
Now, if you replace the word health with evil, that wall of text would still be correct. Suffering is universally disliked by living creatures. The very definition of suffering means that you dislike it. One physical sensation or emotion might be suffering for one creature and not for another, but suffering is disliked by both. Suffering is objectively bad for living creatures.
Remember that " good " and " bad " are concepts invented by living creatures. The universe itself does not care whether you have a good or a bad life, whether you suffer or not. But it is, as a matter of fact, bad for living creatures to suffer, and good for them not to. For THEM. Not for the universe, but for them.
We have observed and imagined things like being raped, having your eyeballs removed with a knife, and having your intestines cut to pieces while in your belly, and we have assigned the word " bad " to them. We haven't decided that those things are bad, we have only assigned a word to describe what they are. And to us, they are, as a matter of fact, bad. (Because they make you suffer)
It is bad for life to suffer, and good for it not to.
The universe doesn't care whether things are good or bad, but there are things that are objectively good, and objectively bad, for living creatures.
As a living creature, I have decided to enter the struggle for justice, to reduce suffering. To make things better for all life.
PS: I am aware that it's not objectively better for me just because things are better for other life forms, but that huge wall of text can be applied to yourself. When you make your life better, it's objectively better. What your life just became is what the word " good " means. I think you should at least care about that, even if you don't care about making the situation better for other life forms. That's why you should master a musical instrument, Brood War, or live with someone you love!
PPS: I suppose if you ONLY care about making things good for yourself, and not making the universe good, then you might as well kill yourself since it doesn't matter when you are dead anyway. But the reason I live is to make the world good.
At its worst it gets reduced to this blind grey-toned apathy. Where the expenditure of effort is useless because you believe it leads nowhere. You may expend a bit of effort, feel a little bit better, and then hopelessness sets in again, and you confirm in yourself that the expenditure of effort was indeed useless. Which discourages you doubly from expending any more energy into anything.
For me, ironically, this is the worst mindset to take-- the expenditure of effort does in fact lead places. I just have a lack of ability to gauge a healthy amount of effort. I either expend way too much and not reward myself for it, or expend none at all. At my worst, there is no ability to balance.
Often, at the moment of deciding 'do I invest my energy into doing this?', a lot of issues often come up: 'well its useless because Ill just feel crappy afterwards anyways', 'Ill be judged on not performing even if I do put the effort in', 'ill be equally judged if I dont put effort in', 'people will think x of me if....' etc. Inevitably, it leads me to throw out the decision making process altogether-- all of the mental crap that goes into deciding whether to put in effort or not is exhausting, so I escape from it all by engaging in things that take zero effort. (which leads in a downward spiral more often than not)
But when I am more clear-minded, I realize that a rich emotional tapestry is inherently meaningful. Perhaps there is no objective 'point', but there needn't be a singular point to things if we can make meaning. I enjoy times when I find things meaningful more than when I succumb to the meaninglessness of apathy. For me, what is lacking, more often than not, is the ability to balance effort, reward myself for effort, and decline to put effort in when the situation calls for it. I find that what I need most in my worst of times is to sidestep all the mental crap I subject myself to when I deliberate over putting effort into something or not, contextualize it and see it for what it is, see where it came from, and let it rest.
It's easier said than done however. So I can relate.
Your fans love and support you no matter what Tyler. We just want to see you happy, because seeing you on stream or at an event when you are happy and enthused makes everyone happy. It really is contagious. I know whenever I see your name pop up on the stream section I get a big stupid grin on my face. Stay strong Tyler.
The way I see it.. there shouldn't be a point to do anything really. You should do something because you want to and not because something there's a point behind it~ these are my thoughts anyway. To me, points.. are basically pointless ahaha if you start thinking of all these things then it might start to depress you or even worsen your already depressed state.
I wanted to write my own blog about this, but I suppose posting on Nony's will have to do.
For the past 12 months I've been struggling with lack of motivation, willpower, or caring of any kind for any of the things I used to be invested in and care so deeply about. Quit my 6 figure job, isolated myself from all my friends, stopped every hobby and volunteer activity. Went through self-pity, self-hatred, self-anger -- nothing got me going.
Then I came to a realization -- this whole time, I've been waiting for myself to feel better. I was waiting to feel something, anything. I was trying to motivate myself before I actually did anything. I was looking for inspiration, to be convicted about something. I was waiting for this feeling of apathy, isolation and self-pity to pass.
I waited 12 months for that. And it never came.
And I suddenly realized that I kept thinking that it was okay for me to wait for my feelings to come back. And while I was waiting, real life had been passing me by. For no reason at all, I lost almost everything I enjoyed in my life.
Now, I'm not waiting anymore. And my feelings haven't come back either. But that won't stop me from proposing to my girlfriend, to applying to grad school, to getting back in touch with all my friends and explain to them why I suddenly cut them off for a year.
I still go through days or even a week of letting my depression paralyze me, and I end up doing nothing. But I pick myself up again. Because I won't let real life pass me by while I wait for my feelings to return.
Glad to see this, I can relate to some extent, although I've never been diagnosed with depression or anything but whenever I feel like this I tend to suppress my feelings so no one really knows that I ever feel this way. I've been trying to change my lifestyle to be more healthy (generally sedentary lifestyle as I sit in front of a computer all day, and that's my job) and become more active/social rather than get diagnosed with something and take pills to hide the problem. I know that sometimes it is completely chemical but personally I don't think I have a problem to that extent, but I often find that when I'm in such a funk, I need to just shut everything out and focus on something with all my effort to make myself feel like I accomplished something and get out of that kind of self-loathing mood.
Obviously I'm no expert, but if you do ever read this I suggest picking something that you've wanted to do and go do it, dedicate yourself to it completely, and see if it helps? I also find that if I can't find peace with myself, it's a huge mental boost to help others out in some way, to make a difference in someone else's life in some way that I can manage using whatever resources I have. I know we all have our own unique talents and abilities and there are few things that feel better than helping or mentoring someone, and with your experience I think you can really make an impact on people if that's what you put your mind to.
Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality.
I can't tell you how many times I've been frustrated by my own ineloquence when trying to express this precise idea. Becoming exasperated at my stubbornness, my father would ask me something like "well why do you want to do that?", and all I could say is "I don't know".
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
On October 09 2012 14:13 ROOTFayth wrote: I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Contrary to popular belief we don't have a magic pill that fixes all our issues.
While we do have anti depressant medication it does not work for everyone, most have numerous side effects and are very expensive. In addition all anti depressants are habit forming which many people forgo taking them for this reason alone.
I've read a couple of your blogs without commenting, but now that I've got a grip on your style I have some advice for your approach to depression. Forgive the use of certain pronouns below that may seem to be including all people of a certain mindset as thinking the same way as me.
--
One of the most difficult parts of life, in my experience, has been to find meaning in an inherently meaningless universe. The two reasons you mentioned that need answers are interesting, but I'd argue that to hold them in your mind at all is to keep them forever out of reach. To deconstruct reality and have those questions (How do I find the will to survive? How do I feel even a desire to be happy?) is to approach the problem from the wrong angle. Those questions can be answered but not with an ultra rational worldview.
To know that you are the god of your own reality can be a disheartening experience especially to those of us trained to be logical and reasonable. We will end up experiencing any action we see as an effect by a reasonable cause (even unidentifiable chaos is reasonable at this stage because the universe is chaotic by nature). Sad things become more understandable (and seem more bearable) and happy or exciting things become expected and boring. Eventually no perceived events are particularly happy, or exciting, or sad. Without realizing it, our logical and reasonable philosophy towards life has contributed to a long term feeling akin to being dead -- depression. Without emotional reactions, our drive to do anything has lifted.
I've been trying to get more in touch with emotional responses to things. This is difficult due to a propensity to view things through a logical lens. However, there's an enormous amount of experiences available to us by allowing our emotions to stay open within the present moment. You will experience bad and good, sad and happy both. It takes an embrace of something primal. It takes not caring how other people view your emotions and how you, yourself, view your emotions. As a side note, it also requires that you cease negatively judging the expressing of emotions by others.
Tyler, have you considered consistent, regular, practiced meditation to try to get in touch with your emotions? Many people who meditate (and many proper Buddhist teachers) are very emotional people yet also look at the world with reasonable eyes. The regular practice of meditation can bring the practitioner into the present moment more often and eventually permanently. Being in the present is a strange phrase that doesn't really do it justice. You will still use everything you've learned in the past to properly judge events happening in the present. What it does is it liberates you from your perceived identity. By practicing releasing your identity, you can be more open to trying ways of thinking that your assumed identity would not have. For people like me, who are really stubborn and are stuck finding happiness on their own terms (aka, those who think for themselves), I really haven't been able to find anything better than meditation. Remember, too, that depression is partly (and after a long time, perhaps mostly) due to brain wiring. Meditation is basically a method of creating new, calm and peaceful neural pathways. This helps your day to day life improve even if you don't wear orange robes and claim to be a member of the Buddhist tradition. All of that (seriously) is bullshit anyways. The juice is in meditation.
I practice zen but I study rarely. If you're curious about meditation I can help.
Good luck, man! I do not know, but I have faith that you can succeed.
On October 09 2012 14:13 ROOTFayth wrote: I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
The Medicines have dramatically different impacts on people. I've had 2 'mild' suicide attempts, and both were within 2 weeks of starting medications. Unfortunately many antidepressants have a side effect that you feel much worse while you adjust, or they leave you feeling incredibly numbed or dead and slow thinking, is something the often warn about.
While they totally help a lot of people, for some its just not a solution at all.
In my case I was always generally a bit depressed, but more just bored with things a lot. When I was 17 got into an accident and experience a lot of just constant pain all the time, not screaming pain, just dull and the type that just tires you out. That kind of made the depression side worse obviously, and back then I had to try medications. I never found success with any and eventually just stopped.
It had been off things for years and years, and it was actually Tyler coming out and mentioning medications again that I figured I'd try again...somehow I thought of depression as a 'Teenager' problem and even though I clearly had it, thought I was too old to bother treating it. I tried a couple medications, and again while those just led to me taking too many sleeping pills one night, it did get me to look into it more generally and I did find things that helped me improve how I sleep which helps me deal with the pain side of things.
But in terms of the general feeling, aside from pain, I totally agree with Tyler on how you feel...its rarely connected at all with how you 'should' feel. Often the times I've felt the worst are the times it is objectively the best.
Times I've been doing well financially, had lots of friends, had a long term girlfriend, doing well in school or work...It's almost the fact that these good things do not make you happy that you're more unhappy. You're kind of left thinking "Well...What else do I have to do?"
Eventually you hit the point where you just don't even want anything else 'cause you can't see it making any difference.
Wanted to say both that I empathize, and being aware of your situation did lead me to make some improvements for myself, but its still basically the same in general. I'm also aware that while I've never been comforted by the idea that other people have the same issues, I still feel compelled to say that that is the case.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Pardon me, but what constitutes as a "mind" suicide attempt? Attempted suicide is serious, not mild. You either tried or you didn't.
I'm not sure if this is exactly what he meant but there's such a thing as a "suicidal episode" which is when you come close to a suicide attempt and stop before then. If, for example, you go to the edge of a cliff and stand there trying to will yourself to jump and realize you can't do it, it's not an "attempt," but it's obviously a meaningful event, psychologically.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
On October 09 2012 14:36 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Pardon me, but what constitutes as a "mind" suicide attempt? Attempted suicide is serious, not mild. You either tried or you didn't.
There's times you try it, but you're aware that someone or something could intervene, or you're not fully confident in how effective your method is. Things like cutting yourself, in a way you could bleed out, but you could stop it as well. Or taking a lot of pills, but not really being sure if it is fatal, or knowing a hospital could probably fix you in time.
It's all serious, but shooting yourself in the head is more serious and terminal than knocking yourself out with pills and having someone find you and help.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
The glaring flaw in your logic of continually asking "why" to every reason behind the actions and feelings of a human being is the expectation that there is a conclusion that has been reached for some particular reason. Is there a reason why planets gravitate around bigger beings? Sure, there are forces that act upon it, but there is no reasoning behind why that object chose to gravitate. It is obeying the properties of the universe. It did not choose whether or not to gravitate, it just did.
If any of you that are suffering from depression, please take this piece of information. When you are pondering the meaning of life, whether life is worth living, etc., look at the mood you were in before you began thinking. Was it a bad mood? More often than not, you will lead to negative conclusions. Good mood? Just the opposite. We as humans often use our brain to rationalize the way we are feeling when there is often no reason to begin with. There are so many extraneous things acting internally/externally to your body that can alter your thinking that, if we are as rational as we would like to think we are, we constantly have to check and re-evaluate our answer along with the current mood we were in.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
I'm listening
You are capable of doing your own research before forming an opinion.
On October 09 2012 14:50 Carthac wrote: The glaring flaw in your logic of continually asking "why" to every reason behind the actions and feelings of a human being is the expectation that there is a conclusion that has been reached for some particular reason. Is there a reason why planets gravitate around bigger beings? Sure, there are forces that act upon it, but there is no reasoning behind why that object chose to gravitate. It is obeying the properties of the universe. It did not choose whether or not to gravitate, it just did.
If any of you that are suffering from depression, please take this piece of information. When you are pondering the meaning of life, whether life is worth living, etc., look at the mood you were in before you began thinking. Was it a bad mood? More often than not, you will lead to negative conclusions. Good mood? Just the opposite. We as humans often use our brain to rationalize the way we are feeling when there is often no reason to begin with. There are so many extraneous things acting internally/externally to your body that can alter your thinking that, if we are as rational as we would like to think we are, we constantly have to check and re-evaluate our answer along with the current mood we were in.
If it was related to mood at the time, that would be a great relief, the reality is that it isn't.
Your cognition is generally the same, you just have the mood to cope with it sometimes. One of my biggest disappointments with medications was the thinking was exactly the same..i just didn't have the negative emotions as much..or positive ones. Good mood or bad mood you kind of think the same, it doesn't really depend on the way you feel right then.
That's why its 'clinical depression', not 'a bad mood' Yes its still the result of some force or interaction, everything is...but it is not the same as people having a bad day.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself.
I get what you mean, but at the same time you can't blame yourself for what other people do.
Life is full of ups and downs, the key is to whenever someone or something pushes you down, its all about how quickly you get back up say fuck you and shove them down instead.
Having been a University student for almost a semester, I have had some deep thought of myself of "There's no reason".
For example, I wanted to be an Aeronautical Engineer. If I'm not actually designing the airplane but I'm working on a minor part of the plane then why go for a job in a limited field with an unlikely chance to get the "big jobs".
-My idea here was to go for a "big job" make a lot of money and do something revolutionary. My mind hit reasonable probabilities for this and I lost all hope for myself for succeeding in this field and in life.
I started to look for my passions, after all "If you do what you love you'll never work a day in your life".Why go for another job that you're not passionate about? Slave through life for X years regretting key decision points in your life? Not the way anyone wants to do it.
-Here I limit myself to the possabilities to make a big difference in the world. I reduce myself to a smaller more broad field of study, but I do something that I like.
There is no point to life. You cannot dream big, the numbers are against you. You are limited, do what you can. What you cannot do, watch other people do it. You are in a collusium of giants, and if you're not a giant you're another spectator. Sit and watch.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
I'm listening
The fact that you are unaware of what distinguishes clinical depression from feeling "blue" reveals a deep seated ignorance about the issue, yet you insist on thrusting forth your uninformed opinion against those with first hand experience. Have you read any Plato? You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
Admitting that rationality is irrational and irrationality is rational is ... rational, in my opinion. Many people take prescriptions against this "reasonable" conclusion (i.e. religion and other metaphysical hypotheses), though I don't believe they work for everyone --- doubt always creeps in.
If the absence of truth is an upsetting notion, you're probably stressed, malnourished, or in a bout of depression. Most people are upset when the psychological castles they've built their entire lives disintegrate. In my experience, improving your physical condition (healthy diet, exercise, social interaction) puts this type of sadness into a comical light; the realm of the absurd.
If on the other hand this conclusion leads you to a sense of utter pointlessness (e.g. what's the point of even getting out of bed, it doesn't matter), then you may be clinically depressed.
You can be a happy nihilist. You can be a sad believer.
There are unhappy truths (logical truths, at least (as useful as they are)) about life and there are chemical/physiological factors controlling behavior and mood. Don't mistake one for the other and don't be too proud to find a solution, or things will get worse.
aside:
If you're the kind of person who likes to read what others before you have thought, I'd suggest Kierkegaard and Nietzsche.
Kierkegaard's take is that meaninglessness allows humans to create their own meaning. He constructs this through the Christian system (see Sickness Unto Health). Chesterton makes a similar argument in Orthodoxy, that the paradoxes (he also uses Christianity) inherent in rational thinking should lead us to a place of infinite possibility.
Nietzsche's take in Will to Power is that utter meaninglessness ought to free you to achieve your wants. He believes that coping with meaninglessness is a stage of maturity, and the "free thinkers" of the world have a leg up on everyone else, something to grin about secretly.
(C.S. Lewis also has thoughts on the subject, but I don't recall them being worthwhile (obsequiously pro-providence).)
I haven't yet found proper attention given to the problem of lost motivation. I think when you put aside stresses, pain, fatigue, and the possibility of depression, a person should still have wants for things beyond their mere survival.
As you get older, everything around you that you take for granted starts to degrade to a point where your wants become simpler and simpler. You go from a point of believing that anything is possible to realizing that nothing is going to happen unless you put in the work and take the risks. I think life is most interesting when you look at it through the lens of, "For good or for regret, how is this enriching me as a person?"
Further aside:
I recently enjoyed the thriller Wolves Eat Dogs, by Martin Cruz Smith. The characters live in a dark world that is literally decaying around them; the conclusion is heartwarming on account of its simplicity. As a writer, Smith tends to build characters who are faced with a world rampant with nihilism (in the derogatory meaning); their heroics are the simple ways that they resist.
On October 09 2012 15:12 coL.Minigun wrote: It's painfully apparent who and who hasn't experienced clinical depression.
This is so true. Can't believe people are saying "oh just take meds/therapy/tree bark brah it's easy". Do they really think it is so simple? It's not a virus or a cold you don't just take medicine and get better. It penetrates the very fabric of your being. To offer a fix like that is pretty much insulting in my view. No one knows more about what Tyler is feeling than Tyler. To assume that he's just never tried to do anything about it is just stupid.
There may be no point in living but there's no point in dying either so you might as well start living and find made up reasons to do so. I realize to someone that is actually depressed that line of thought isn't easy to take hold of but it's how I personally reconcile my nihilism.
On October 09 2012 14:50 Carthac wrote: The glaring flaw in your logic of continually asking "why" to every reason behind the actions and feelings of a human being is the expectation that there is a conclusion that has been reached for some particular reason. Is there a reason why planets gravitate around bigger beings? Sure, there are forces that act upon it, but there is no reasoning behind why that object chose to gravitate. It is obeying the properties of the universe. It did not choose whether or not to gravitate, it just did.
If any of you that are suffering from depression, please take this piece of information. When you are pondering the meaning of life, whether life is worth living, etc., look at the mood you were in before you began thinking. Was it a bad mood? More often than not, you will lead to negative conclusions. Good mood? Just the opposite. We as humans often use our brain to rationalize the way we are feeling when there is often no reason to begin with. There are so many extraneous things acting internally/externally to your body that can alter your thinking that, if we are as rational as we would like to think we are, we constantly have to check and re-evaluate our answer along with the current mood we were in.
If it was related to mood at the time, that would be a great relief, the reality is that it isn't.
Your cognition is generally the same, you just have the mood to cope with it sometimes. One of my biggest disappointments with medications was the thinking was exactly the same..i just didn't have the negative emotions as much..or positive ones. Good mood or bad mood you kind of think the same, it doesn't really depend on the way you feel right then.
That's why its 'clinical depression', not 'a bad mood' Yes its still the result of some force or interaction, everything is...but it is not the same as people having a bad day.
But you do realize you can come to different justifiably rational conclusions at two different points that is affected by setting, internal/external health, current life factors, etc. correct?
Example: An individual coming out of college has been invited out to a party by his friends. One night, he decides to go out and his justification is: I have not seen my friends in some time, I feel like meeting a few new people, the venue sounds fun.
Now go to the next week. You are invited once again, but this time you choose not to go. Your reasoning is: I just recently went and would like to save money, I have a new video game I want to start playing, and I am not in the mood to go out that night.
Both are perfectly rational conclusions that people make that differ from time to time. Now just apply the same logic to that on bigger issues in life. For example, one day you are pondering the meaning of life. One day you might arrive at the conclusion that life is meaningless because: When I am dead I will be gone forever, I am literally nothing in the grand scheme of the universe, and nothing on this planet actually means anything except to those that are living at the moment.
Another day you might arrive to the conclusion that life is meaningful because: I need to make the best of this one life to live because I will not have another one, Personal relationships and the journey through life brings me a steady flow of positive feelings that I greatly enjoy, and we as a species may be able to do something in this universe that can be at least somewhat meaningful.
Both of these situations can reach logical conclusions on both ends, but are greatly affected by internal/external extraneous factors that we do not analyze while we are coming to our conclusion of the question. Neurotransmitters in your brain are very powerful. You must understand them and realize how they can subtly and greatly affect your reasoning to a point that may bring you to harsh and rash conclusions
Edit: And I just read you may have been taking antidepressants looking for them to change your thought process? All antidepressants do is help your brain correct a possible imbalance in neurotransmitters in your brain. If you are not at a good place in your life, that will not change. If your depression was dependent on an imbalance of brain chemistry, your problem is solved. However, depression often leads you to situations in life that would cause anyone to become depressed. You have to change your situation and thought process through sheer will power, which therapy can greatly aid in doing
I wish you the best NonY and really wish and as a SC2 fan sincerely hope that one day you will find joy in playing SC2 like you did BW and have the motivation to become a top player.
On October 09 2012 14:50 Carthac wrote: The glaring flaw in your logic of continually asking "why" to every reason behind the actions and feelings of a human being is the expectation that there is a conclusion that has been reached for some particular reason. Is there a reason why planets gravitate around bigger beings? Sure, there are forces that act upon it, but there is no reasoning behind why that object chose to gravitate. It is obeying the properties of the universe. It did not choose whether or not to gravitate, it just did.
If any of you that are suffering from depression, please take this piece of information. When you are pondering the meaning of life, whether life is worth living, etc., look at the mood you were in before you began thinking. Was it a bad mood? More often than not, you will lead to negative conclusions. Good mood? Just the opposite. We as humans often use our brain to rationalize the way we are feeling when there is often no reason to begin with. There are so many extraneous things acting internally/externally to your body that can alter your thinking that, if we are as rational as we would like to think we are, we constantly have to check and re-evaluate our answer along with the current mood we were in.
If it was related to mood at the time, that would be a great relief, the reality is that it isn't.
Your cognition is generally the same, you just have the mood to cope with it sometimes. One of my biggest disappointments with medications was the thinking was exactly the same..i just didn't have the negative emotions as much..or positive ones. Good mood or bad mood you kind of think the same, it doesn't really depend on the way you feel right then.
That's why its 'clinical depression', not 'a bad mood' Yes its still the result of some force or interaction, everything is...but it is not the same as people having a bad day.
But you do realize you can come to different justifiably rational conclusions at two different points that is affected by setting, internal/external health, current life factors, etc. correct?
Example: An individual coming out of college has been invited out to a party by his friends. One night, he decides to go out and his justification is: I have not seen my friends in some time, I feel like meeting a few new people, the venue sounds fun.
Now go to the next week. You are invited once again, but this time you choose not to go. Your reasoning is: I just recently went and would like to save money, I have a new video game I want to start playing, and I am not in the mood to go out that night.
Both are perfectly rational conclusions that people make that differ from time to time. Now just apply the same logic to that on bigger issues in life. For example, one day you are pondering the meaning of life. One day you might arrive at the conclusion that life is meaningless because: When I am dead I will be gone forever, I am literally nothing in the grand scheme of the universe, and nothing on this planet actually means anything except to those that are living at the moment.
Another day you might arrive to the conclusion that life is meaningful because: I need to make the best of this one life to live because I will not have another one, Personal relationships and the journey through life brings me a steady flow of positive feelings that I greatly enjoy, and we as a species may be able to do something in this universe that can be at least somewhat meaningful.
Both of these situations can reach logical conclusions on both ends, but are greatly affected by internal/external extraneous factors that we do not analyze while we are coming to our conclusion of the question. Neurotransmitters in your brain are very powerful. You must understand them and realize how they can subtly and greatly affect your reasoning to a point that may bring you to harsh and rash conclusions
Edit: And I just read you may have been taking antidepressants looking for them to change your thought process? All antidepressants do is help your brain correct a possible imbalance in neurotransmitters in your brain. If you are not at a good place in your life, that will not change. If your depression was dependent on an imbalance of brain chemistry, your problem is solved. However, depression often leads you to situations in life that would cause anyone to become depressed. You have to change your situation and thought process through sheer will power, which therapy can greatly aid in doing
Rationality is by definition that which is not contingent upon feelings/emotions. You can rationally describe your moods or emotions, but any "rational" conclusion which vacillates with your mood is de facto not rational. Nihilistic feelings do not have to a product of one mood or another. I suspect a large percentage of modern areligious young people would when pressed would espouse largely nihilistic worldviews, and yet they are largely happy, content to party and get good grades and live their lives nonetheless. They are supported by the "feelings" Nony talked about in his OP, that some goals (primarily happiness) are subjectively worth striving for even if they are not metaphysically significant. Depression is the cessation of these feelings. The depressed individual loses his barrier between reality and life, is no longer to look the other way. While anti-depressants can to some extent restore these feelings, the patient is left feeling somehow "inauthentic", as they know full well the rational conclusions of their thought, and though they might not feel so bad anymore, they don't feel good either. Even happiness can soon begin to feel inauthentic, empty and artificial, leading to the crash-fall/good day- bad day patterns of many depressed individuals.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: I've received a lot of messages from sufferers of depression, thanking me and wishing me well. Though I've responded to very few, I do feel a responsibility. And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself. I've willed myself to behave and focus for long enough to write this to remind you that our feelings are diminished, not gone. Even as I write this, I feel a spark, and I hope this reminder gives you one too.
I don't know if I am or have ever actually been clinically depressed, or if i just go through bouts of feeling sorry for myself. But either way, during these episodes, everything seems to lose its luster. I took a year off of college due to social and emotional problems. Until that moment, I hadn't considered myself as a "sheltered" child while growing up. But I wasn't prepared for college, in more ways than one. I was able to stick true to my values, as I'm straight-edge. I didn't drink, I didn't do drugs, I didn't smoke. Ironically, that made me more of an outcast than if I had done those things, but I digress.
I did go back to college, I did graduate. And now, I still wonder "what for?" I'm working a dead-end job, I live with my parents (who I love, don't get me wrong), and I just feel lonely. A lot. Every once in awhile, I get feeling really down. A lot more recently. And I hate it, because here I sit, in a warm, comfortable home, with wireless internet, a laptop, way too much food (I'm kinda fat ;_;) and I'm so ridiculously privileged and I'm still getting down on myself.
Motivation comes and it goes. Happiness comes and it goes. I basically feel the same way. I'll do something, achieve something, and be happy about it, then later think "what did it really get me, besides a moment of feeling good? Now everyone has already forgotten about it except for me..."
I don't know man. I'm now starting to get back into one of my "motivated" periods. I'm exercising, writing a lot of music, writing in general, even doing better at SC (still in gold, but w/e). But even now, I know that in a few weeks, hell, maybe in a few days, I might lose it again.
And that sucks. People might say "well, suck it up, stop being such a bitch," but it's actually pretty hard when you don't have a reason for your motivation. Maybe I'm just going in circles. I think I am.
Basically, I can relate. Maybe you'll read this, maybe you won't, but others will. And to everyone, I hope you can keep your motivation, and therefore, your life and happiness, out of the dumps.
But what if you never come out of one of those episodes? Like, I honestly haven't felt truly happy, about anything, since 2006. Yeah, there's the occasional moments, but for me, they quickly die away before anything positive comes from them. A Radiohead lyric comes to mind: "I'm not living, I'm just killing time." P.S. Thank you for getting me into Elliott Smith, NonY, he's really one of the most talented musicians I've heard in a while.
I wanted to make an account just to reply to NonY's initial post. I'm not great at writing concise paragraphs, but I'll do my best.
I've been battling depression for almost 9 years at this point. The only time that I ever admitted to somebody that I suffered from it was when I was recovering from a surgery earlier this year, in which while I was under the influence of a ton of pain killers and awakening from my anesthetic, I had an emotional breakdown in front of my mother and my surgeon about it (completely unrelated to the surgery I was having). The level of severity of my depression has plateaued at this point, but I can also say that it's worse than ever.
The one thing major thing that I believe I've learned from my experience with depression is how little we, as humans, are in control of what we think and our emotions and thoughts. You may respond with "Mind over matter, always", but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, is that no matter feelings you feel at any moment, your brain is still just like a computer, and there are still chemical reactions that affect your ability to control or change your feelings and thoughts at any point. I think of people who are able to push themselves really far mentally and physically, or who are great motivational speakers and will say something about how they live each day like it's their last, or how they might as well die if they don't push the limits. I strongly believe that this mindset is more of a result of their current mental state than an initiation to change their internal state. These type of positive mental states just can't be achieved with any psychology or inspiration, from my experience. Depression, as I think of it, is more than just an alteration of mental state, but rather an entire alteration of your brains programming, which makes me baffled as to how it begins (it started for me when I was going through puberty, so maybe it's genetic?).
I've tried anti-depressants, but they never worked. I've been taking ADHD medication for just over a year (since my diagnosis), and oddly enough, it greatly improves my motivation for a short period, yet I still feel completely hopeless at the same time. I've never felt stranger in my life than I do when that medication is working in full force. I feel like I could talk to anybody about how to improve their life, yet, feel like I want to end my own life simultaneously. Confusing to say the least.
My point in this rant is that one could argue that "this isn't Tyler speaking". Sure, I guess, but I actually believe that anybody can be anybody at any point. What you consider to be "you" is almost irrelevant to me. You can be naturally quiet and reserved, but you could probably be normally outgoing with the correct alteration of chemicals in your brain. I want to say that Tyler probably isn't as in control of his feelings as you may speak. I saw somebody earlier post something about how was going to propose to his girlfriend even though he was depressed because he knew blah blah blah blah blah. You still feel purpose in proposing to your girlfriend? Hmm, maybe your depression is different from mine then, because in my depression, having a girlfriend or not really doesn't make a difference. In my depression, I don't "care" if I'm ever happy. What I 'want' in my depression is to continue to feel as little as possible. I have some deep reasons that ensure I'll never commit suicide, so hopefully I can just live this life while feeling as little as possible. "Purpose" feels more trivial than ever. I will start practicing something on my piano, screw up, have no real to keep going, and stop playing for the night while pausing for a short moment to try to remember why I started playing in the first place.
I often think of great composers and artists who had "blue periods" or "sad periods" and often painted pictures and composed music to reflect it. I find this amazing, seeing as my experience with depression has been, more than ever, deprived of any sensation at all. I see their paintings and think "wow... this is amazing... how the hell can you paint this while feel depressed? They must not feel depressed, they must feel sad or something", because for my depression, my world is smaller than ever. It's small whether I'm in my room, at a party, at a concert, or at a family dinner. I don't think I can ever write a song in this state. I can't think of anything original in this state. I feel almost nothing and can't think of anything outside of the current state I'm in. My life is like dried oatmeal; everything is dark grey, dark grey, dark grey, there's no change in color or shade at all. If I found out that my family was killed in a car accident, I might think "Oh no, this is the worst thing to have ever happened in my life. I feel like shit. Actually, to be honest, I don't feel any different than usual. I feel like shit everyday". It's very, very hard to admit that I probably wouldn't feel any different if something like that happened to my family, but honestly, everyday single day I feel the same way that I would if my family died.
My point in this is that I realize that for me, and probably for NonY, we are actually in the least amount of control of "changing" our current state than ever. NonY admitted that he believes nothing has a purpose, and that's how I feel, but I also know that there may have been one day, or one hour, or maybe just one minute in the last 5 years where if you asked him the same question about purpose in life that he would have had a different answer. But that time isn't now, and he probably isn't in a state where you are going to get an ounce of optimism or change in him. He may be able to look back in the next few months, or years, and think that his reactions to all of these things are really stupid, but he definitely can't do that now.... at least if he's anything like me he can't. Not while suffering from depression.
tl;dr..... just don't read it. It's too long, and I can't shorten anything from it.
Anyone who has ever practiced anything knows that this is nonsense. Practice as we use it, is to repeat something. If someone is repeating something over, and over, then they can never be perfect as they are never improving. They can never respond to the challenge fully and adequately. They just make the same mistakes again and again. The statement is a conundrum as is.
However if you look at the etymology of the word "practice," it originates from the Greek word "praxis" which means TO ACT. This is interesting because it transforms the statement "practice makes perfect" into something different, and logical. The new meaning is "TO ACT is perfect" or "TO ACT, IS" or "perfection is in the action." Perfection is achieved in the action, as in the present, the now, no longer in the repetition.
When this makes sense to you, you will understand the reason for life.
Tyler do you enjoy music? Does the "reduced emotions" bit apply to music as well? I go through episodes where I can't find motivation or meaning in anything but I've never lost my ability to empathize with music. You're a big elliott smith fan right? When I'm depressed he's usually one of the only artists I'll listen to. Maybe it's because when I'm in that state his music is the only type of music I can identify with but regardless of it making me feel perhaps even more upset, it lets me know that I still am capable of human emotions/feelings so I "enjoy" it.
Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it? Life without the feeling of joy,pleasure and interest,in my mind,is just torture.It's also not only affecting you but all of the people around you that do care,who you are dismissing because you are in this state.Do you stay because of the people that you are attached to so you feel a sense of responsibility to stay,or do you just stay attached to them because they help you with depression and it makes it tolerable? But if the former is the case than you are just a emotional leech that couldn't function without those people,I have never been in a position where you have to live or constantly be around someone that is clinically depressed but I would imagine that it's a pretty shitty and thankless thing,to care about someone that doesn't. Tyler for instance has a wife,did you marry her because you felt genuine need and joy to do so or just because it felt like she can alleviate your state? If yes does she still accomplish that? There are people saying that you can't just take meds and make it all good,but it's a step if you want to change your state of mind right?If you refuse meds and just decide to move along with this torture than again why not just end yourself?
This is a 100% serious post btw and I'm not trolling. I wish Tyler all the best,I watch his stream when ever I can and I don't even watch starcraft nowadays anymore.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it? Life without the feeling of joy,pleasure and interest,in my mind,is just torture.It's also not only affecting you but all of the people around you that do care,who you are dismissing because you are in this state.Do you stay because of the people that you are attached to so you feel a sense of responsibility to stay,or do you just stay attached to them because they help you with depression and it makes it tolerable? But if the former is the case than you are just a emotional leech that couldn't function without those people,I have never been in a position where you have to live or constantly be around someone that is clinically depressed but I would imagine that it's a pretty shitty and thankless thing,to care about someone that doesn't. Tyler for instance has a wife,did you marry her because you felt genuine need and joy to do so or just because it felt like she can alleviate your state? If yes does she still accomplish that? There are people saying that you can't just take meds and make it all good,but it's a step if you want to change your state of mind right?If you refuse meds and just decide to move along with this torture than again why not just end yourself?
This is a 100% serious post btw and I'm not trolling. I wish Tyler all the best,I watch his stream when ever I can and I don't even watch starcraft nowadays anymore.
So why don't you "just end it?"
I mean you agree that there's no point in living. Doesn't that just make you an emotional leech on everyone you know?
This is a 100% serious post btw and I'm not trolling.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: There are people saying that you can't just take meds and make it all good,but it's a step if you want to change your state of mind right?If you refuse meds and just decide to move along with this torture than again why not just end yourself?
It's an irrational mindset. Everything feels so overwhelming, and hopeless. It drains every bit of energy and motivation you may have. It's really hard to explain.
Probably the thousandth person to say this, but i suffer from BPD. Just because tyler has a very low day does not give anybody an excuse to all of a sudden call his character, his personality, or his team into questioning over shit that clearly is personal and being kept that way.
I can't stress how badly I want to see Nony shine. He really is a shining example of somebody overcoming obstacles to do something they love, and that shit's inspirational I'm sure to all of us in our own way. How could you not root for this handsome son of a bitch?
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Depression, in my experience, is the diminishment of these feelings. When you do something that should make you happy by all reasonable measures, you aren't happy. When you do something that should make you sad, you don't feel any worse. When you do nothing, you don't feel any different. A lack of those fundamental feelings is to blame.
There is no way to think yourself out of it because the solution is irrational. They are feelings that healthy humans have, nothing more than that. Willpower is your only tool here. You can irrationally will yourself to seek solutions. You can practice clever ways to coax those feelings back into existence. You can take medicine to promote those feelings. In any case those feelings will probably return, as depression is typically episodic, and you can start being happy again by doing what's good and doing what's right and being successful.
But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it. And no matter what you do or think, your happiness is gone. Habits may carry you a while, but all motivation has vanished. You won't feel like pursuing your own happiness, but you'll feel a lot of other shit that's not so pleasant. You'll pretend nothing has changed, but it's just an act. You'll stretch your willpower to cover the void. If it's enough to bridge the gap, then congratulations on being functioning. If not, then welcome to the club.
P.S. I'm not suicidal. Don't worry about that. I've received a lot of messages from sufferers of depression, thanking me and wishing me well. Though I've responded to very few, I do feel a responsibility. And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself. I've willed myself to behave and focus for long enough to write this to remind you that our feelings are diminished, not gone. Even as I write this, I feel a spark, and I hope this reminder gives you one too.
Hello. First of all, I would like to congratulate you on discovering what seems to be an existential philosophy. However, I would like to ask that in the future you keep this to a more personal page. I am personally of the opinion that teamliquid is not exactly an appropriate place for you to be soapboxing your own personal problems, nor should it be a venue for you to discuss your philosophical leanings. This blog is disparaging to the teamliquid blog standard because it downplays a very serious topic. Thoughts of suicide and discussion of depression are not appropriate for the teamliquid blog format.
I have to question your motives when you say you feel "responsible" for other people who are depressed. Do you really? That seems like a big responsibility for someone who is depressed; and, are you actually making yourself out to be a posterboy for those who are depressed? I'm merely playing devil's advocate with these questions, however I think they emphasize my point about this blog perhaps downplaying the seriousness of what you've actually written in your post. My point being, teamliquid is a proud e-sports community, not e-therapist.com. Despite that, you should not feel threatened to make a "cry for help", which this post of yours may very well be.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Rationality involves coherence and logical consistency. It's completely possible to justify a belief or an action with emotions coherently and consistently. "Solving math problems is engaging and fun. I should pursue something if it's engaging and fun. I'm going to solve math problems." How would that be irrational? And in fact, emotion plays a large part in making sensible and rational decisions in everyday life. Without it to guide us through the infinite possibilities of decisions, actions and strategies that are presented to us, making even the tiniest decisions would be a mountain to climb (This is a central difficulty in A.I. research for instance). As was the case with "Elliot" a man who suffered brain damage to the part of his brain that helps regulate emotion. His intelligence was perfectly intact and he passed all the tests that assess neurological damage. But choosing where to eat and even the colour of his pen would take him hours.
That said there are plenty of pursuits and projects in life that are valuable and worthwhile. You can even make the argument that many of those things can be rationally justified. The problem with the question, "What's the meaning of life?" is that it's an unclear and nonsensical question. You wouldn't ask, "What is the meaning of house?" unless you were a non english speaker. I think what that question is really asking is a series of questions such as: "What makes life worth living?", "Is it worth living if we all die in the end anyway?", "Is there a primary purpose to living?" "Do I have to ground my activities in something "bigger" to make it meaningful? etc. With careful and serious consideration you can get an answer to such questions.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it? Life without the feeling of joy,pleasure and interest,in my mind,is just torture.It's also not only affecting you but all of the people around you that do care,who you are dismissing because you are in this state.Do you stay because of the people that you are attached to so you feel a sense of responsibility to stay,or do you just stay attached to them because they help you with depression and it makes it tolerable? But if the former is the case than you are just a emotional leech that couldn't function without those people,I have never been in a position where you have to live or constantly be around someone that is clinically depressed but I would imagine that it's a pretty shitty and thankless thing,to care about someone that doesn't. Tyler for instance has a wife,did you marry her because you felt genuine need and joy to do so or just because it felt like she can alleviate your state? If yes does she still accomplish that? There are people saying that you can't just take meds and make it all good,but it's a step if you want to change your state of mind right?If you refuse meds and just decide to move along with this torture than again why not just end yourself?
This is a 100% serious post btw and I'm not trolling. I wish Tyler all the best,I watch his stream when ever I can and I don't even watch starcraft nowadays anymore.
So why don't you "just end it?"
I mean you agree that there's no point in living. Doesn't that just make you an emotional leech on everyone you know?
This is a 100% serious post btw and I'm not trolling.
Because I like living and I like experiencing emotions lol,I'm not religious nore do I believe I serve and kind of higher purpose as an individual,I just like to get up and see what happens.Do I think there is a purpose?No.Do I like it?Yes.Hence I never felt the need to kill myself. Does it make me an emotional leech?Idk,I tend to think that I give pleasure and happiness back to the people that are involved with me in my life,so I guess they get something out of it and it isn't just a selfish one sided experience. I personally don't have many close friends,I have a gf and a few people that care about me and I care about them.So it's a mutual experience.
On October 09 2012 16:01 makedajuiceboxwhet wrote: Life isn't about how good you have it. It's about rolling with the punches and still being about to get up in the morning.
I think this is a great post to make an example of somebody who doesn't understand depression at all.
The fact that you can say that means you don't suffer from it. This poster seems like a guy who maybe has felt bad, or even downright suicidal before, but hasn't felt depression. Depression isn't just feeling sad. Depression is a complete mental takeover. I remember when I was a kid and my grandfather died, or I got beat up, or my dog died... I remember that as a kid I was feeling absolutely shitty... sick to my insides. I remember (I don't actually remember how it feels, I just remember thinking this stuff) how I could say to myself "You know, this is terrible, but I have to be strong, I'm not going to let this take over my life, and I'm going to keep doing my best and try my hardest to live life the way I want to." I can't even begin to think this way now. I can say those words in my head as many times as I want now but they mean nothing. I'm not in control of changing how I feel.
Imagine if every time you had an orgasm you would out of nowhere just start laughing hysterically and uncontrollably for like 5 minutes. Your girlfriend may say "can you please stop doing that? It really ruins the mood.", but you may not actually be in control of changing it. Every time you cum, it just happens. There's no stopping it. Nothing you think of can make you stop laughing. You think of death and blood everywhere... you think of your 8 year old cousin being brutally murdered but you keep laughing and laughing and laughing. Depression is like that. There's pretty much nothing you can tell me or something I can tell myself or think to myself that will change how I act and think. Whether or whether not I do something is just completely down to circumstances or just how bad it is at that time.
Geez, I know all about major depression, but I cannot imagine being depressed and holding down a job that includes performance and the public eye. Looks like its time to make a decision.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
Yea I understand that.But the "The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones" argument kinda doesn't hold ground when you cause pain either way just by being there.I mean as I said I have no idea how it is to be around a depressed person constantly but I imagine it's a pretty shitty thing to constantly feel your burden. Obviously you cant measure the quantity of pain you cause,but constant pain builds up to a point where you either learn to tolerate it,but you are still in pain,or you just give in. It's sounds to me like being in a bad relationship that you know it's going no where.It's hard to just end it,so you stay,but it doesn't make it better,only ending it and taking time to heal really makes things better.
Very good post. I read this and its like a script in my own life. The problem i felt with my depression is staying at home. Going out even tho I hate it, even tho I do not want to helps a lot. Even just getting by with the pain still lets me enjoy some time with friends. However I have distanced myself with so many of my good friends because of depression it is hard to go out anymore. Just one thing these feelings suck, it sucks more then physical pain because I believe I could take all of the physical and still be happy and move on. This pain is different and I would wish it on no person ever. Good luck with yours Nony, all I keep telling myself is ... "Life has to get better at some point" everyday.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
Yea I understand that.But the "The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones" argument kinda doesn't hold ground when you cause pain either way just by being there.I mean as I said I have no idea how it is to be around a depressed person constantly but I imagine it's a pretty shitty thing to constantly feel your burden. Obviously you cant measure the quantity of pain you cause,but constant pain builds up to a point where you either learn to tolerate it,but you are still in pain,or you just give in. It's sounds to me like being in a bad relationship that you know it's going no where.It's hard to just end it,so you stay,but it doesn't make it better,only ending it and taking time to heal really makes things better.
It's usually no different than being around anyone else. No, you don't always cause others pain. It's like putting on a mask every day, every interaction, you smile act happy, while you are the furthest from it.
And if you have a friend who doesn't do that and instead of helping him you see him as a burden, then he probably wasn't your friend.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
Yea I understand that.But the "The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones" argument kinda doesn't hold ground when you cause pain either way just by being there.I mean as I said I have no idea how it is to be around a depressed person constantly but I imagine it's a pretty shitty thing to constantly feel your burden. Obviously you cant measure the quantity of pain you cause,but constant pain builds up to a point where you either learn to tolerate it,but you are still in pain,or you just give in. It's sounds to me like being in a bad relationship that you know it's going no where.It's hard to just end it,so you stay,but it doesn't make it better,only ending it and taking time to heal really makes things better.
It's usually no different than being around anyone else. No, you don't always cause others pain. It's like putting on a mask every day, every interaction, you smile act happy, while you are the furthest from it.
And if you have a friend who doesn't do that and instead of helping him you see him as a burden, then he probably wasn't your friend.
On October 09 2012 15:12 coL.Minigun wrote: It's painfully apparent who and who hasn't experienced clinical depression.
Yeah. I don't know what to say to the people who are looking for an explanation, because you really can't "logic" your way out of depression (from my experience).
On October 09 2012 16:35 CCsyph wrote: Just leave, NonY. It's becoming embarrassingly comical. Just leave.
I don't know how you can say such a thing. He is clearly expressing what he is going though and telling people that their is a light at the end of the tunnel and you come in here and say this? You clearly don't know what is going on and maybe it is you who should leave if you are going to post comments like that.
I remember hearing you were on medication. I don't know if you are or are not anymore, but you really should speak with your doctor about how you're feeling and seeing where they think you should go if it's a different medication or a therapist etc. I could go on about how there are people who are care about you, etc etc but you've already heard it all.
I would like to urge everyone who feels contempt or aggression towards Nony, or towards people who suffer from clinical depression in general, to take a few seconds and read up on the Just-world hypothesis:
Because it’s far too frightening for many to accept that bad things can happen to good people, and therefore that they themselves have no control over whether bad things might happen to them someday, they will instead search for ways to differentiate themselves from victims of ill fortune. For example, outsiders might deride people whose houses were destroyed by a tornado, blaming them for choosing to live in a disaster-prone area or for not building a stronger house.
Nony, I'll be honest - and both you and possibly many other people wont like this: Live another life.
It's quite obvious that, for whatever reason, what currently is happening isn't making you happy. If you don't, in what you do currently, find the happiness and joy and reason that you want to find in life, then do something else. Don't hope it'll change - if it does it probably won't be for good.
Sorry to say, but I think you should look for other horizons. What other things besides gaming do you long for? Find your answer there, I think. As much as it'd pain me to lose such a prominent figure - one that's been here forever, long before I joined TL and ways before I started watching BW too, this might be the right course of action.
I just want you to be happy NonY, do what ever you need to do to get better. After all, nothing else matters.
edit: #1 Reading responses
Wow, the advice being given is pretty laughable. My favorite was "Just go to your doctor."
NonY is doing everything in his power to relieve himself of the torture he is being put through of existing in a world without meaning and happiness. Out lashes like this are last resorts of these feelings. I'd try to break it down for you, but depression is not easily understood without experiencing it for yourself. Just imagine a black hole where positive emotions are suppose to be.
There is VERY little the community can do to help NonY. Finding meaning, in a meaningless world, is a journey NonY must walk alone.
Talk to your doctor and think about getting therapy(if you don`t do so already) and/or stationary treatment until you get out of the worst stage of your current depressive episode. Once you did that think about setting new goals and develop routines that allow you to achieve those goals. These goals don`t have to give your life a meaning in the first place but they structure your thoughts and actions. Why not finishing your B.A. work? Frankly, I think your current SC2 carreer seems rather detrimental to your overall situation as it is unlikely that you will ever reach a point in SC2 that would give you the relevant satisfaction.
On October 09 2012 17:33 Irrational_Animal wrote: Talk to your doctor and think about getting therapy(if you don`t do so already) and/or stationary treatment until you get out of the worst stage of your current depressive episode. Once you did that think about setting new goals and develop routines that allow you to achieve those goals. These goals don`t have to give your life a meaning in the first place but they structure your thoughts and actions. Why not finishing your B.A. work? Frankly, I think your current SC2 carreer seems rather detrimental to your overall situation as it is unlikely that you will ever reach a point in SC2 that would give you the relevant satisfaction.
Just by reading your statement I can tell you have never been depressed or fully depressed as bad as I have before or maybe even Nony *just because I do not know the full length of his depression*
I think People need to understand that there are no goals when you are depressed. Its more of I fucking don't want to be awake right now, I would rather be sleeping the day away or laying down just thinking about things non - stop over and over again. I dont even have a reason why I am depressed I grew up good, I live with amazing people, I put myself with amazing ppl. However for no reason like a switch of a light I get depressed. Depression is to hard to explain its very very hard to even compare it to something. Because it affects ppl in different ways. I feel like nothing, I feel like i could lay down and do NOTHING all day, you feel like shit, you don't want to eat, you don't want to play video games you don't want to watch tv, you dont want to go out, you want to lay down and do nothing. Its that simple your mind is racing about dumb things maybe problems you face, or even putting yourself down * that you are nothing in this world * Doctors are NOT always the answer, I have seen more doctors then I can count, I have taken so many different types of pill for it , over 15 different kinds. Nothing has helped me. So saying you need to set goals , or go to a doctor or talk about your problems. Sometimes there isn't any problems. I know you was just trying to help. But hopefully this sheds some light on why some of things wont work. I have been thru this shit since i was 18 years old im 26 now. Nothing has changed or got better everyday is different for me. Some days I am the "old Marc" I used to be hanging with friends being a joker, some days im nothing laying in a bed for 24 hours doing nothing.
After taking ketamine the first time and having a near-death experience from it i got stuck in a mindset of constantly escaping reality, which was seeming more and more meaningless, until i was doing it every day and nothing else. Lost all emotional feeling and the motivation to do any thing, all i did was question my existence and snort ketamine most of the day to stop the thoughts and have peace for a few hours before back into the reasoning. The entire human existance i could only see as if it was an outside perspective, unable to think about anything, watch anything, without analyzing the reasoning for the people involved. After a while of extremely heavy use it started seriously hurting my bladder and i had no choice to stop. The spark you describe was the only bit of hope keeping me going, but it was barely there and rare. Rest of the time was just sitting in silence with no thoughts on k, sitting or laying anywhere in silence demotivated doing the bare minimum to live, reading when i could think straight enough to do it. Not being able to listen to or enjoy music was particularly bad for me.
Now a bit further on after completely stopping, i notice feelings generally returning.. i just really hope they are still there. The good and the bad feelings, because having neither and being basically a mental zombie is a really, really, miserable experience. I don't know if it was chemically induced depression exactly or what, but the OP sounds all so familiar. Especially the part about pretending nothing has changed to people.. trying to keep up appearances and go about as normal with these thoughts on your mind was one of the worst parts, really hurts socially. I never felt suicidal either because it still felt fundamentally irrational no matter how far my mind slipped.. maybe inherent beliefs play a role in that decision for people.
Edit: wow the post on the last page by JustToTry explains it very clearly, the depersonalization and everything.. exact same thought about suicide too.
Having been through deep depression for years and out of it I just realized that the thought op is giving was exactly what I was saying all the time to myself while in fact I was just not able to see that I wished for a different life all along and I couldn't make up with my ego to admit I failed in what I expected of myself when I was growing up, which ultimately made me feel empty and often unhappy. Not sure for how many depressed people this applies, but I was just blind in front of my problems and ultimately giving up my ego was the solution and after that I was able to look deep inside into myself, which made me realize what the real issue was and I ultimately got out of the emotional loop repeating itself every few months.
On October 09 2012 15:56 JustToTry wrote: I wanted to make an account just to reply to NonY's initial post. I'm not great at writing concise paragraphs, but I'll do my best.
I've been battling depression for almost 9 years at this point. The only time that I ever admitted to somebody that I suffered from it was when I was recovering from a surgery earlier this year, in which while I was under the influence of a ton of pain killers and awakening from my anesthetic, I had an emotional breakdown in front of my mother and my surgeon about it (completely unrelated to the surgery I was having). The level of severity of my depression has plateaued at this point, but I can also say that it's worse than ever.
The one thing major thing that I believe I've learned from my experience with depression is how little we, as humans, are in control of what we think and our emotions and thoughts. You may respond with "Mind over matter, always", but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, is that no matter feelings you feel at any moment, your brain is still just like a computer, and there are still chemical reactions that affect your ability to control or change your feelings and thoughts at any point. I think of people who are able to push themselves really far mentally and physically, or who are great motivational speakers and will say something about how they live each day like it's their last, or how they might as well die if they don't push the limits. I strongly believe that this mindset is more of a result of their current mental state than an initiation to change their internal state. These type of positive mental states just can't be achieved with any psychology or inspiration, from my experience. Depression, as I think of it, is more than just an alteration of mental state, but rather an entire alteration of your brains programming, which makes me baffled as to how it begins (it started for me when I was going through puberty, so maybe it's genetic?).
I've tried anti-depressants, but they never worked. I've been taking ADHD medication for just over a year (since my diagnosis), and oddly enough, it greatly improves my motivation for a short period, yet I still feel completely hopeless at the same time. I've never felt stranger in my life than I do when that medication is working in full force. I feel like I could talk to anybody about how to improve their life, yet, feel like I want to end my own life simultaneously. Confusing to say the least.
My point in this rant is that one could argue that "this isn't Tyler speaking". Sure, I guess, but I actually believe that anybody can be anybody at any point. What you consider to be "you" is almost irrelevant to me. You can be naturally quiet and reserved, but you could probably be normally outgoing with the correct alteration of chemicals in your brain. I want to say that Tyler probably isn't as in control of his feelings as you may speak. I saw somebody earlier post something about how was going to propose to his girlfriend even though he was depressed because he knew blah blah blah blah blah. You still feel purpose in proposing to your girlfriend? Hmm, maybe your depression is different from mine then, because in my depression, having a girlfriend or not really doesn't make a difference. In my depression, I don't "care" if I'm ever happy. What I 'want' in my depression is to continue to feel as little as possible. I have some deep reasons that ensure I'll never commit suicide, so hopefully I can just live this life while feeling as little as possible. "Purpose" feels more trivial than ever. I will start practicing something on my piano, screw up, have no real to keep going, and stop playing for the night while pausing for a short moment to try to remember why I started playing in the first place.
I often think of great composers and artists who had "blue periods" or "sad periods" and often painted pictures and composed music to reflect it. I find this amazing, seeing as my experience with depression has been, more than ever, deprived of any sensation at all. I see their paintings and think "wow... this is amazing... how the hell can you paint this while feel depressed? They must not feel depressed, they must feel sad or something", because for my depression, my world is smaller than ever. It's small whether I'm in my room, at a party, at a concert, or at a family dinner. I don't think I can ever write a song in this state. I can't think of anything original in this state. I feel almost nothing and can't think of anything outside of the current state I'm in. My life is like dried oatmeal; everything is dark grey, dark grey, dark grey, there's no change in color or shade at all. If I found out that my family was killed in a car accident, I might think "Oh no, this is the worst thing to have ever happened in my life. I feel like shit. Actually, to be honest, I don't feel any different than usual. I feel like shit everyday". It's very, very hard to admit that I probably wouldn't feel any different if something like that happened to my family, but honestly, everyday single day I feel the same way that I would if my family died.
My point in this is that I realize that for me, and probably for NonY, we are actually in the least amount of control of "changing" our current state than ever. NonY admitted that he believes nothing has a purpose, and that's how I feel, but I also know that there may have been one day, or one hour, or maybe just one minute in the last 5 years where if you asked him the same question about purpose in life that he would have had a different answer. But that time isn't now, and he probably isn't in a state where you are going to get an ounce of optimism or change in him. He may be able to look back in the next few months, or years, and think that his reactions to all of these things are really stupid, but he definitely can't do that now.... at least if he's anything like me he can't. Not while suffering from depression.
tl;dr..... just don't read it. It's too long, and I can't shorten anything from it.
Paragraph 5 is exactly how I feel. By definition, I think my parents might be what is considered the most adequate parents, very wealth and very caring. Nonetheless, if one of them drop dead, it would just be another day.
Okay, I'm going to skip all the shit about how we relate, questions.
Do you ever laugh because you feel like you should be laughing in a situation? Almost like a projection of how you think feelings should be?
Do you ever feel like you're kidding yourself? That perhaps you do care about everything?
Every time I spend time with other people, I might feel fine in the moment, but afterwards I feel like the whole thing was a waste of time. This happens every time without fail. Does this happen to you?
I ask this, because sometimes I feel that my body is fucking with me almost. Like my emotions are just a cruel joke.
There is meaning and purpose everywhere, in fact even in places where there is none we humans tend to impose one anyway. Depression sucks because it robs you of your ability to do this. It's not merely "feeling sad". No, not everybody "gets depressed" from time to time. It's much deeper than that. It's more of a loss. A great loss. A loss of motivation, all the joy in your life, a loss of any sense of control in your life.
Think about something that you find completely dull and meaningless. Like doing an entire sink of dishes. Think about how that feels in your gut and body.Then make a list of everything in life that energizes you and makes you feel alive. Maybe seeing Jangbi win the last ever OSL final, laughing until you cry with a buddy, doing a noble deed, sex with your girlfriend, going to a concert of your favourite band, eating the best sushi you've tasted, accomplishing something--think of your most primal and greatest desires. Now imagine that instead of feeling that oh so sweet ecstasy as you do these activities, replacing that instead with that feeling you get doing a sink full of dishes. That's the start of major depression. That sweet kiss from your girlfriend that would've normally felt like the greatest thing in the world? A plate to scrub. Your favourite tv show? A pot to wipe.
And that's when things start to feel hopeless. And why it doesn't matter if you're surrounded by people who love you or that you've accomplished great things in life.
On October 09 2012 13:55 vOdToasT wrote: 1: Why would you need a "meaning" when you can master magnificent things like musical instruments, or StarCraft: Brood War? Those things are motivation enough to get out of bed.
2: Why would you need a "meaning" when you can try to understand the universe? You yourself are part of the universe, and you were created in the universe, by the universe. When you investigate and understand the universe, something self-aware and conscious that was created by something that is not conscious, asks what the universe is and how it works. So it's actually the universe asking itself what it is, and attempting to answer it, in the form of you. And that's pretty fucking awesome.
3: Concepts like " good ", " bad "; " evil ", " healthy " and " unhealthy " are words that humans attached to existing things. What is health, when you really think about it? It is certain configurations of protons, neutrons, and electrons in a creature's body. And even though the standards for what is healthy change over time (Dying at the age of 50 is unhealthy today, but wasn't in the past), we can OBJECTIVELY say that some creatures are more healthy than others. Even though we invented the concept of health, and even though the standards for health change over time, it is a fact that some creatures are more healthy than others. The word " health " is describing something that would exist whether the word existed or not. Whether humans would observe it, or understand it, or not.
Now, if you replace the word health with evil, that wall of text would still be correct. Suffering is universally disliked by living creatures. The very definition of suffering means that you dislike it. One physical sensation or emotion might be suffering for one creature and not for another, but suffering is disliked by both. Suffering is objectively bad for living creatures.
Remember that " good " and " bad " are concepts invented by living creatures. The universe itself does not care whether you have a good or a bad life, whether you suffer or not. But it is, as a matter of fact, bad for living creatures to suffer, and good for them not to. For THEM. Not for the universe, but for them.
We have observed and imagined things like being raped, having your eyeballs removed with a knife, and having your intestines cut to pieces while in your belly, and we have assigned the word " bad " to them. We haven't decided that those things are bad, we have only assigned a word to describe what they are. And to us, they are, as a matter of fact, bad. (Because they make you suffer)
It is bad for life to suffer, and good for it not to.
The universe doesn't care whether things are good or bad, but there are things that are objectively good, and objectively bad, for living creatures.
As a living creature, I have decided to enter the struggle for justice, to reduce suffering. To make things better for all life.
PS: I am aware that it's not objectively better for me just because things are better for other life forms, but that huge wall of text can be applied to yourself. When you make your life better, it's objectively better. What your life just became is what the word " good " means. I think you should at least care about that, even if you don't care about making the situation better for other life forms. That's why you should master a musical instrument, Brood War, or live with someone you love!
PPS: I suppose if you ONLY care about making things good for yourself, and not making the universe good, then you might as well kill yourself since it doesn't matter when you are dead anyway. But the reason I live is to make the world good.
Your reasoning is a bit off. Health is arbitrary, as is good and evil.
If you look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, the only purpose is to survive to reproduce. being happy is not really a goal or a purpose in itself, but a tool to secure survival. so the default setting of a human is to seek happiness. being depressed or even having self-destructive behavior is of course not helping to survive.
it turns out environmental factors have a much larger role in these "mental illnesses" than previously thought. Although some people are genetically predisposed for such things, you can change the gene expressions by changing environmental factors.
humans today eat and live pretty unnaturally compared to 20.000+ years ago, but our genes haven't changed that much since then.
Environment and “experience-dependent adaptability.” That’s the crux of epigenetics. We have more influence on our mental and physical health than we previously thought. While we can’t control every aspect of our environment or our emotional experiences, we have the considerable potential to ameliorate those factors. In terms of physical health, we can eat well, supplement wisely, exercise strategically, sleep adequately, and reduce our exposure to toxins as much as possible. For our mental health, we can do all of the above as well as learn effective ways to cope with the stress in our lives (as well as find overall fulfillment). While physical activity can help us feel less stressed in the short term, a personally beneficial meditation practice (yoga, Tai Chi, Transcendental, etc.) can fundamentally change our response to stress. Over time, our efforts can potentially modify the expression of those genes that are involved in stress response and very likely related areas of mental health like anxiety and depression. While some of us might be more genetically predisposed to certain physical and mental health conditions, epigenetics offers hope that our own choices and practices can play a significant role in their prevention and treatment.
a major factor seems to be stress. but stress means also physical stress. sitting in front of a computer all day can be a factor. but physical stress can be caused by little things like inflammations on a cellular level. let's say you eat too much omega-6 fatty acids compared to omega-3. you probably have systemic inflammation without even realizing it and thus are more stressed. all these little things can add up.
so if I'm getting this right, you don't feel a particularly strong will to survive, or a particularly desire to be happy, because in the end whats the point behind it? The universe is this large vast thing, and even if you lived forever, anything you ever did would be worthless in grand scheme of things, if there is a grand scheme of things.
So I'm in complete agreement that there is no point in life. There is no meaning, there is no purpose. But I've always found it easy to justify (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy.
Completely ignoring the depression and just thinking about things rationally, I think it's safe to say being alive and sentient is better than not being alive and sentient. It's a simple value system. Being alive may hold no value compared to the universe, but to you a person, it holds some non zero amount. Any non zero amount is better than a zero amount. So you could say a will to survive comes from the simple fact that surviving is better than not surviving.
Similarly, the desire to be happy is better than no desire to be happy. The argument is very similar. A desire to be happy compared to no desire to be happy holds pretty much no value to the universe, but holds some personal value to you. And even though, you ultimately may and most likely also have no value to universe, in a model of everything there is a positive in the desire to be happy side. And thus, following this line of reasoning you can say a desire to be happy at some infinitesimal point holds a non zero positive value, versus the zero value of no desire to be happy.
Now for whatever reason, your brain is wired up so that a desire to be happy holds little value to you. So when you ask yourself "What is the point of having a desire to be happy, the value is essentially nothing?". And I guess this is where your blog post stems from. This is an incorrect question. Instead you should ask, "What holds greater value, a desire to be happy which has basically zero value, or no desire to be happy which does has zero value?".
Of course that is a rational explanation. Depression I imagine can be irrational, but it doesn't hrut to bring some rational thought into a system.
On October 09 2012 15:56 JustToTry wrote: I wanted to make an account just to reply to NonY's initial post. I'm not great at writing concise paragraphs, but I'll do my best.
I've been battling depression for almost 9 years at this point. The only time that I ever admitted to somebody that I suffered from it was when I was recovering from a surgery earlier this year, in which while I was under the influence of a ton of pain killers and awakening from my anesthetic, I had an emotional breakdown in front of my mother and my surgeon about it (completely unrelated to the surgery I was having). The level of severity of my depression has plateaued at this point, but I can also say that it's worse than ever.
The one thing major thing that I believe I've learned from my experience with depression is how little we, as humans, are in control of what we think and our emotions and thoughts. You may respond with "Mind over matter, always", but that's not quite what I mean. What I mean is, is that no matter feelings you feel at any moment, your brain is still just like a computer, and there are still chemical reactions that affect your ability to control or change your feelings and thoughts at any point. I think of people who are able to push themselves really far mentally and physically, or who are great motivational speakers and will say something about how they live each day like it's their last, or how they might as well die if they don't push the limits. I strongly believe that this mindset is more of a result of their current mental state than an initiation to change their internal state. These type of positive mental states just can't be achieved with any psychology or inspiration, from my experience. Depression, as I think of it, is more than just an alteration of mental state, but rather an entire alteration of your brains programming, which makes me baffled as to how it begins (it started for me when I was going through puberty, so maybe it's genetic?).
I've tried anti-depressants, but they never worked. I've been taking ADHD medication for just over a year (since my diagnosis), and oddly enough, it greatly improves my motivation for a short period, yet I still feel completely hopeless at the same time. I've never felt stranger in my life than I do when that medication is working in full force. I feel like I could talk to anybody about how to improve their life, yet, feel like I want to end my own life simultaneously. Confusing to say the least.
My point in this rant is that one could argue that "this isn't Tyler speaking". Sure, I guess, but I actually believe that anybody can be anybody at any point. What you consider to be "you" is almost irrelevant to me. You can be naturally quiet and reserved, but you could probably be normally outgoing with the correct alteration of chemicals in your brain. I want to say that Tyler probably isn't as in control of his feelings as you may speak. I saw somebody earlier post something about how was going to propose to his girlfriend even though he was depressed because he knew blah blah blah blah blah. You still feel purpose in proposing to your girlfriend? Hmm, maybe your depression is different from mine then, because in my depression, having a girlfriend or not really doesn't make a difference. In my depression, I don't "care" if I'm ever happy. What I 'want' in my depression is to continue to feel as little as possible. I have some deep reasons that ensure I'll never commit suicide, so hopefully I can just live this life while feeling as little as possible. "Purpose" feels more trivial than ever. I will start practicing something on my piano, screw up, have no real to keep going, and stop playing for the night while pausing for a short moment to try to remember why I started playing in the first place.
I often think of great composers and artists who had "blue periods" or "sad periods" and often painted pictures and composed music to reflect it. I find this amazing, seeing as my experience with depression has been, more than ever, deprived of any sensation at all. I see their paintings and think "wow... this is amazing... how the hell can you paint this while feel depressed? They must not feel depressed, they must feel sad or something", because for my depression, my world is smaller than ever. It's small whether I'm in my room, at a party, at a concert, or at a family dinner. I don't think I can ever write a song in this state. I can't think of anything original in this state. I feel almost nothing and can't think of anything outside of the current state I'm in. My life is like dried oatmeal; everything is dark grey, dark grey, dark grey, there's no change in color or shade at all. If I found out that my family was killed in a car accident, I might think "Oh no, this is the worst thing to have ever happened in my life. I feel like shit. Actually, to be honest, I don't feel any different than usual. I feel like shit everyday". It's very, very hard to admit that I probably wouldn't feel any different if something like that happened to my family, but honestly, everyday single day I feel the same way that I would if my family died.
My point in this is that I realize that for me, and probably for NonY, we are actually in the least amount of control of "changing" our current state than ever. NonY admitted that he believes nothing has a purpose, and that's how I feel, but I also know that there may have been one day, or one hour, or maybe just one minute in the last 5 years where if you asked him the same question about purpose in life that he would have had a different answer. But that time isn't now, and he probably isn't in a state where you are going to get an ounce of optimism or change in him. He may be able to look back in the next few months, or years, and think that his reactions to all of these things are really stupid, but he definitely can't do that now.... at least if he's anything like me he can't. Not while suffering from depression.
tl;dr..... just don't read it. It's too long, and I can't shorten anything from it.
Wow, the second paragraph is exactly the realization that I have come to. I tried, however, to be open about all that with my parents and they just don't get it, they simply can't grasp the physiological nature of it. I tried comparing it to someone having a maimed leg while others would shout at them all the time for not being able to run properly, and saying something like "Dude, just come play basketball with us. How hard can it be to run? You just have to shake it off and do it". You can't "shake off" a physically damaged limb in exactly the same way as you can't "shake off" a malfunctioning brain. There is no reasoning yourself out of a broken leg, you simply have to live with it.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
Just throwing my own 'thoughts' about this in here.... I know I'm not a Plato, Thales, Pythagoras, Socrates, Nietzche ...and my knowledge about them only goes so far, but having an opinion is awesome.
Survival is intuitive. Not only human beings but also animals, bacteria, .... share this thing, it is the cycle of life. Mankind is known for being different than the rest because of its ability to think rationally. If one searches for a meaning, a reason, .... and they cannot find it after having tried everything possible in their own power, then indeed why would you not commit suicide? If you think about it rationally there is no reason not to end it right there.
On October 09 2012 16:01 TheKefka wrote: Can someone that suffers from clinical depression explain to me some things.Why don't you just kill yourself? Tyler states there is no point to life,which I agree with.If you share that view and you are in a constant state of low mood,have no interests and pleasures in life,what is the point?Why not just end it?Are you too scared to do it?
Many due, hence suicides. The ones that don't have many different reasons not too...I can't speak for others, but it's incredibly hard to actually kill yourself. The guilt from the pain it would cause loved ones. Wanting to be happy, knowing how to get there, but unable to motivate yourself enough to do it.
Just throwing my own 'thoughts' about this in here.... I know I'm not a Plato, Thales, Pythagoras, Socrates, Nietzche ...and my knowledge about them only goes so far, but having an opinion is awesome.
Survival is intuitive. Not only human beings but also animals, bacteria, .... share this thing, it is the cycle of life. Mankind is known for being different than the rest because of its ability to think rationally. If one searches for a meaning, a reason, .... and they cannot find it after having tried everything possible in their own power, then indeed why would you not commit suicide? If you think about it rationally there is no reason not to end it right there.
What is more human than suicide?
Well you could have kids, and attempt to make those kids the "better versions" of you in hope that they, or their kids will be able to ultimately find some meaning or purpose.
Just throwing my own 'thoughts' about this in here.... I know I'm not a Plato, Thales, Pythagoras, Socrates, Nietzche ...and my knowledge about them only goes so far, but having an opinion is awesome.
Survival is intuitive. Not only human beings but also animals, bacteria, .... share this thing, it is the cycle of life. Mankind is known for being different than the rest because of its ability to think rationally. If one searches for a meaning, a reason, .... and they cannot find it after having tried everything possible in their own power, then indeed why would you not commit suicide? If you think about it rationally there is no reason not to end it right there.
What is more human than suicide?
Realistically, even if you were 100% certain that there was no meaning to life and no possibility of discovering a reason you still have no more reason to commit suicide than to continue living. Suicide is sometimes painful, depressing and messy to your friends and loved ones and involves taking an action while living just requires following your instincts.
Also there is great possibilities for joy in life even if you are depressed. Tyler asks why be happy? Is feeling good from being happy not a good enough reason? I like being happy. I strive to be happy, not because there is a reason for being happy but because feeling happy feels good. Since there is no reason to die and it goes against instincts it makes no sense to commit suicide and since you are already living you might as well strive to feel good.
On October 09 2012 13:39 travis wrote: What point to life would you possibly expect, lol.
You get hungry right? Do you go eat when you get hungry?
Let go of your longing and just be happy with what is right in front of your face!
Sometimes its really hard to see your nose in-front of your face.
I was having some depressed-ish life thoughts as I was driving home from work and I made this post on facebook.
"When I was a kid, half the size of what I am today. I used to think I could be whatever I wanted to be, I was very serious about it, and no one could tell me otherwise. That feeling began to dissipate and I don't know it anymore. I started to let other people live between my ears. I became cynical, resentful, angry, detached. Now I don't even know where I begin. Just want to do my part so that I can feel connected to everyone else without the resentment. Big or small, I am tired of feeling confused. Oh well, one foot in front of the other."
Then I went to this website that I get daily quotes from and found this.
"What is the centre? The centre is the 'me', the 'me' that wants to be a great person, that has so many conclusions, fears, motives. From that centre we think, but that centre has been created by the reaction of thinking. So can the mind be aware of thinking without the centre, just observe it? You will find how extraordinarily difficult it is just to look at a flower without naming it, without comparing it with other flowers, without evaluating it out of like or dislike. Experiment with this, and you will see how really difficult it is to observe something without bringing in all your prejudices, all your emotions and evaluations. But, however difficult, you will find that the mind can be aware of itself without the centre watching the movement of the mind."
Then I found my favorite players blog! <3 The meaning of life to me (at first I wrote "I feel like the meaning of life..." then I derp'd) is just to contribute to the people around me what I can, to the very best of my extent. I should not compare myself to others, but I should hope the my contribution big or small, helps advance the people and other living things (somewhat) of this planet, to a better way of living. Maybe I am not a flame, maybe I am just a spark, or whatever brought the spark about. Its not important to me. What is important is that I gave it my all, that I am happy more than I am sad, and that I lived by the morals I established to the best of my ability without my conditioning.
You know what....all I can say is that your point is very Schaupenhauer-esque. I think reading the world as will and representation will give you a decent idea at what our natures are, and also ways to alleviate the stress.
Personally, I'd say listen to music (not modern stuff, classic music is composed in an entirely different nature and is actually incredibly soothing to the soul). Try to get lost in Art, really look at the picture....see yourself in the picture and let it reflect your soul. This takes hours, and some fine fine art, but it definitely is possible to do. Those are probably the only solutions I can suggest. The only other thing is to just enjoy the happy time, and distance yourself from the depressive side. Find what excactly is disilussioning you and step away from that.
I have a few things I want to contribute, about how to find happiness.
This quote from Franklin Schmidt resounded with me, consider it well:
The author of Ecclesiastes never seems to find contentment. Why? Because he fails to recognize that we humans are tribal by nature. We cannot find contentment by ourselves but only through connections to others. We find contentment by being part of something larger than ourselves, this being our tribal instinct. Morality is built into all of us and this makes cooperation and societies possible. A moral person who is part of a group/tribe/society that he believes in will be far more content than an immoral person who has infinite wealth and physical pleasures.
[..]
One should find a society worth conforming to, and then conform to it, because this is the only way to find lasting contentment. This is the only way to escape the sense of futility expressed in Ecclesiastes. And the reason for this is because we humans are designed to live as part of a society and we can only find contentment by doing what we were designed to do.
On another note, as some have pointed out, your happiness depends primarily on your mental state, and it's hard to take control of that, "mind over matter"-esque. There are adjustments to your life you can make to improve your mental state. You have to find out what works for you. A few examples that have made me happier:
- Cut out pornography and masturbation completely, starting today. There are zero downsides. - Seek out beauty. Distance yourself from our horrible modern "culture". Buy beautiful paintings, and listen to Beethoven, Mozart, Tchaikovsky, etc. - Eat a good diet (lots of eggs, bacon and steak) so you get the energy you need to control your life.
Finally, there is religion. Lots of people cursed with an active intellect and consequent realization of futility have found happiness and meaning in Christianity. It seems foolish to not make an honest attempt to find God - what have you to lose? I have not succeeded with this, though.
There's no point to life. Animals just live. They don't ask themselves why / why not, they just live. And we humans are "cursed" with intelligence. Tho i don't know how much better is being an happy idiot than a sad smartass. Having said that we could all just wire our brains and press a button to release dopamine as we please... but then we'd probably stop eating / drinking / caring and die quickly. Although that's more pleasure than happiness, but then again happiness as we see it is a quite modern idea... There's also the idea that, you could just be, generally satisfied with your life...
I think it´s all about attitude. In the past I often felt really sad and to demotivated to do anything. However, I decided to change my attittude completly 2-3 years ago and I became a lot happier. To me, the key is not giving a fuck about what happens around you. Once I stopped thinking about thinks like "What do other people think about me?" or "Can I do this? How will other other people react?" I became a lot happier. It doesn´t matter to me what random people think about me and my actions or what the society wants us to do. I just do what I think is the correct thing to do no matter what.(I only change my opinions if a few close friends or my family have good arguments against what I´m doing.) Also, a lot of bad things happen around us. People murder each other, childrens die in Africa because they have nothing to eat while we have so many obese people, people cheat and hurt people they love, ... But to be honest, I don´t give a fuck about that. Why should I?`It´s not my business and thinking about such stuff or even trying to do something against this hopeless situation would make me really unhappy. I´m aware that this kind of thinking is selfish and egoistic but somehow I´m happy most of the time since I chose not to care anymore.
Although I think there´s no deeper meaning to our existence because, let´s face it, compared to the amount of people on this planet or the whole universe one human life means nothing, our existence is still valueable. I mean, considering the big picture, our life is meaningless. However, my life isn´t meaningless to me. I still can enjoy myself and do stuff I like.
I think to find happiness, you have to realise who you are. You need to figure out what your values are, then you have to live by these values. You should strive to look at yourself in the mirror and be proud of who you have become. It is not about where you are born or the circumstances you were born into, you cannot control that. You can control your own actions. If you behave in a way that you personally deem as worthwhile you will feel more worthwhile and can be proud of yourself.
Good luck, Nony. I hope you figure this out. There is a solution but you just need to find it. Go find your happiness.
On October 09 2012 21:24 Wayne123 wrote: I think it´s all about attitude. In the past I often felt really sad and to demotivated to do anything. However, I decided to change my attittude completly 2-3 years ago and I became a lot happier. To me, the key is not giving a fuck about what happens around you. Once I stopped thinking about thinks like "What do other people think about me?" or "Can I do this? How will other other people react?" I became a lot happier. It doesn´t matter to me what random people think about me and my actions or what the society wants us to do. I just do what I think is the correct thing to do no matter what.(I only change my opinions if a few close friends or my family have good arguments against what I´m doing.) Also, a lot of bad things happen around us. People murder each other, childrens die in Africa because they have nothing to eat while we have so many obese people, people cheat and hurt people they love, ... But to be honest, I don´t give a fuck about that. Why should I?`It´s not my business and thinking about such stuff or even trying to do something against this hopeless situation would make me really unhappy. I´m aware that this kind of thinking is selfish and egoistic but somehow I´m happy most of the time since I chose not to care anymore.
Although I think there´s no deeper meaning to our existence because, let´s face it, compared to the amount of people on this planet or the whole universe one human life means nothing, our existence is still valueable. I mean, considering the big picture, our life is meaningless. However, my life isn´t meaningless to me. I still can enjoy myself and do stuff I like.
Read the rest of the thread and you'll see its absolutely nothing to do with 'attitude' you can't get a new perspective or something and cure depression any more than you could cure Diabetes by 'Envisioning Insulin'
I can definitely relate to some of this. Just not feeling what you should feel. Not finding any motivation to do anything, to truly live or to die, no matter how hard you look. Then you just give up and stop looking. There's no reason. You can't force yourself to "just do it". You're just floating around through the days of your life in your own sad bubble, suffocating slowly. Regretting life.
I can still stretch my willpower enough to function decently though. I realize that I should try to change things in my life and myself to get closer to achieving the happiness that I should want. I just need to find that motivation first. But in the end, there's no reason to.
Anyways, I wish Nony all the best with fighting his depression.
On October 09 2012 22:28 Wildmoon wrote: Not feeling sadness or happyness is actually a good thing in buddhism way.
That's not true at all. Buddhism admits that to be controlled by one's emotions blinds the way to seeing the truth of reality but the key word is "controlled". You've never seen the Dalai Lama laugh or cry? He does both often. He's more in touch with, and feels more often, his emotions than most.
I definitely believe some feelings are rather a consequence of thought (which may or may not be rational depending on the case) than something stand-alone in the irrational realm. I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here, I just want to point out the relation between rational thought and feelings. Of course, thought is not the only thing necessary to "produce" feelings, but I believe feelings often originate from rational thought. Assigning (or perhaps discovering) value to something can be a rational process of thought, and those values will most likely affect our feelings in some way. I also believe the values can be either true or false, but that's a different question maybe.
Also I don't believe this is true:
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
As I mentioned in this post, even though I think feeling happy is a great thing, I don't believe it's the most important thing.
To OP: I'm not trying to criticize your feelings or anything, I just wanted to share a different perspective that some people might find helpful.
An interesting look into depression. I assume this was meant to communicate your mindset, but you come painfully close to stating a horrible misinterpretation of reality - that your view is the only view. I feel that life has a point, and I don't feel that point stems from an inner desire to be happy. You might be right. I might be right. The more appropriate assessment is that neither of us know, that neither of us can know the inner workings of "life" - we can only postulate the inner workings of our own individual lives.
Rationality is not life without perspective - rationality is life without bias. Rationality does not add 1 and 1 by saying "really, what does '1' mean - is '1' anything really?" It makes assumptions and follows those assumptions as though they were true. That you and I have made different assumptions to begin with does not make one of us rational and one of us not. It simply means we are applying our rationality to different ends.
On October 09 2012 22:28 Wildmoon wrote: Not feeling sadness or happyness is actually a good thing in buddhism way.
That's not true at all. Buddhism admits that to be controlled by one's emotions blinds the way to seeing the truth of reality but the key word is "controlled". You've never seen the Dalai Lama laugh or cry? He does both often. He's more in touch with, and feels more often, his emotions than most.
It's not only that you must not get controlled by emotions but you must get rid of all desire to achieve enlightment. If you are not attached to anything I don't think you will feel any sadness or happyness.
Don't like living, too scared to die. Nothing more nothing less. I found no more profound expression of my own unhappiness than in They Shoot Horses, Don't They? It's written from the perspective of someone who isn't sad, being around someone who doesn't want to live. You might want to read it if you ever see this post -.-
Humans give purpose to things from their own perspectives, that's for sure.
On October 09 2012 22:28 Wildmoon wrote: Not feeling sadness or happyness is actually a good thing in buddhism way.
That's not true at all. Buddhism admits that to be controlled by one's emotions blinds the way to seeing the truth of reality but the key word is "controlled". You've never seen the Dalai Lama laugh or cry? He does both often. He's more in touch with, and feels more often, his emotions than most.
It's not only that you must not get controlled by emotions but you must get rid of all desire to achieve enlightment. You are not attached to anything I don't think you will feel any sadness or happyness.
I don't think sadness and happiness can't be achieved without being attached to something. Because you don't own something or someone doesn't make you unable to feel. Before a storm you'll look at the sky and feel amazed or scared or whatever. You're not attached to the storm but it'll make you feel something. Most of your feelings are, in fact, crafted by your own condition.
On October 09 2012 22:28 Wildmoon wrote: Not feeling sadness or happyness is actually a good thing in buddhism way.
That's not true at all. Buddhism admits that to be controlled by one's emotions blinds the way to seeing the truth of reality but the key word is "controlled". You've never seen the Dalai Lama laugh or cry? He does both often. He's more in touch with, and feels more often, his emotions than most.
It's not only that you must not get controlled by emotions but you must get rid of all desire to achieve enlightment. You are not attached to anything I don't think you will feel any sadness or happyness.
I don't think sadness and happiness can't be achieved without being attached to something. Because you don't own something or someone doesn't make you unable to feel. Before a storm you'll look at the sky and feel amazed or scared or whatever. You're not attached to the storm but it'll make you feel something. Most of your feelings are, in fact, crafted by your own condition.
ฺัBy not attached to anything in Buddhism it means EVERYTHING even yourself. You don't have to own anything and still attached to something. Let's not get further into this topic. I am buddhist but I know very little about it. lol
I can relate to and I agree with your view on the lack of meaning or reason in life. All we ever do is motivated by irrationality. A completely rational person would just lie down and wait for death, because everything else is a waste of energy. The point is, we do have this energy to waste, and most of us choose to go ahead and spend it while we can. Most people assign different names and denotations to what they're doing (goals, aspirations, dreams), but in the end it's just a way of occupying ourselves until our bodies expire.
Of course Nony's situation is vastly different from mine, but what led me to contentment (I'm purposely avoiding the term "happiness") was simply to give up on desperately looking for something that will give my existence meaning. As far as I'm concerned, there is nothing of that sort to be found anywhere, so I won't bother chasing the imaginary light at the end of the tunnel. I'm perfectly fine with just getting up each morning and awaiting what today might bring, without planning for what I'm going to do next year, next month or even next week.
All I'm here for is to do whatever the fuck I want (and by "here" I mean on this planet, not TeamLiquid - I have read the ten commandments, I swear!), without worrying about the consequences. I won't maintain a constant headache because of the way life treats me, I don't care about it enough for that.
That said, Tyler, I wish you all the best and I hope you find your personal path to being okay with how things are someday.
P.S. I am not exactly uninformed about what Nony is experiencing, I was diagnosed with clinical depression twice. If what I wrote above comes off as lacking in empathy or misunderstanding his condition, trust me, I know it's not an easy thing to live with.
I always feel for you NonY. It seems unfair that you bring happiness to so many people and yet happiness isn't being brought to you. I'm a person who used to get my value in life by pleasing others. After a long time that took a toll on me and I had to get selfish and start concentrating on me. But it must be so much harder for you to do that because we all have "expectations" of you because you carry the TL banner along with your name. So the choice to make others happy is always the priority. You must perform well in and out of your games. I just urge you to remember the community that represented TL 4-5 years ago. Where no one hated on you for no reason and didn't have expectations for you. We were just happy to see you play and know who you were. This is your family on TL and while there is the occasional annoying brother or sister, this site should be your support and give you praise. Somewhere in the past year I feel that good energy has left this place. But you are still here to help model for us what this community is supposed to be. So while your responsibility is high, your expectations from us are to just be yourself and be happy. Results will follow from there.
Wow ... either this summer really is/was hard for many people or I just stumble about it because I just got real depressions. And I just realized I had something like that for many years ... without ever realizing it. Only this summer it hit me hard.
Most of the years I actually got around it with a constructivist mindset ("even if I can't see the reason, which I cannot, I can give myself a reason. Also I can not know if there is no reason, because thinking there is no reason is the same as believing there is a reason.").
Depressions are like the most irrational thing of all for me. But still they are real.
As someone who has dealt with bipolar disorder since 17 years old (I am now 21) honestly you sound more like what I had gone through than just generic depression you seem to have a lot of ups and downs. Not saying you are bipolar but its something to at least think about and research.
People dont have to justify why something makes them happy just like you don't have to justify why you are unhappy. But to tell everyone (including a bunch of potentially happy people) that there is no point to life is just being a downer. To tell them that their quest is useless and that one day while at the peak of their happiness they will suddenly realize that it was all for shit is a little extreme.
Blogs are a great way to voice/ vent your own problems and frustrations but you shouldnt be using them as a tool to tell other people falsehoods about their own life.
Perhaps if you can't find purpose in yourself, you can find purpose in others. In writing the disclaimer at the bottom of your post, you've shown you care about the impact of your words on strangers. Surely, you can convinced yourself that your love for your family and the responsibilities that love carries is enough reason to get out of bed in the morning. Anyway, that was the motivation I finally settled on when I struggled to find purpose in life.
Alternatively, you can accept that your life doesn't need a rational underpinning, and that the seeking your own happiness is worthy of effort simply because you prefer it to the alternative. After all, there's no universal or logical law that holds that we should minimize our effort expenditure. That desire to conserve energy is another feeling that humans get due to evolutionary pressures. There's no more reason to obey the urge to do nothing than there is to obey the urge to seek happiness.
Thank you for this blog. For a long time i have been by myself, thinking the same way but having a hard time translating my thoughts into words since i am a Math major. The meaning of life, the existence of the human race are all meaningless once you look out into the outer universe. Feelings, actions, reason are simply reduced to the very bit of electron and atom interactions. To find the purpose of life have always been the final goal of humanity since the very beginning of higher society. Gods, religions were created, science is developed, moral is passed on all in order to reach further and further into the core of each conscious mind and ease the will to end one life for losing the living purposes. In other word, the survival of humanity, our race. All will just be reduced into the void once you realize that the core of the problem: the answer will never be found, at least in your life time. Most people choose to forget, choosing a different short term goal to focus on their life, others simply dont even question is from the very first place simply because their ability to question such has been oppressed by the environment they live in: society, culture, religions,... Only few like us remain in depression, the upset feeling that your life is emptiness without a true meaning.
When i was in middle high school and learned about the Theory of relativity, how time and space interact, i often picture human race as a small river flow to the sea just because nature created that way. The chance of atom colliding, connect and create such scenery is extremely rare and somebody like me, a rock standing by the river of time, have the rare chance to enjoy the appreciation of nature's wonder. The existence of human race is a miracle and we live on to celebrate it. Appreciating the meaning of 'live' is simple live it to the very best, for yourself.
Tyler, I know that there is the chance that we gona meet in near future gona be almost impossible. But i do respect you as a fellow thinker to the utter most. Live on!
Maybe you all have that view because you spend too much time in your basement, away from other people or even the sun? If you don't see any point in life, you might as well end it. Or you just get off your computer, start going out and have a good time.
Meaning is an irreducible feature of the universe, and an irreducible feature of Mind--it is the only reason why one event follows another, why something looks like anything, why your thoughts and ideas are connected to each other in a rational framework.
The choice is between being and non-being, between life and death. Non-being cannot rationally be preferred to being, since it does not exist. But that's too simple, of course: the real choice before every person is not whether to exist or not, but whether to behave rationally in accord with being, or to exist while rejecting being and reason. Being is good, and the good is desirable by definition; not to seek it is to behave irrationally.
The greatest saints in Christian history have struggled with depression, anxiety, listlessness, and doubt, even to the point of suicidal feelings. Mother Theresa ended her life feeling nothing but the absence of God and of meaning--and yet she endured, and brought happiness to millions, because she loved God. St. Therese of Liseux spent a great deal of her life in a state of profound anxiety and depression, and yet endured and brought joy to millions through her writings. Francis De Sales was one of the most famous counselors and spiritual writers, bringing help and comfort to millions upon millions, and yet suffered from depression throughout his life. G.K. Chesterton suffered from depression and nihilism in his youth, before becoming one of the happiest men in the history of the world. The way they all found was the love of God. But whether you believe in God or not, the rational love of being and the good--a love that is not founded upon feelings and does not consist in feelings, but rather is founded upon reason and consists in the will-- is the only way to happiness.
I have struggled with these kinds of questions, fears, and doubts all my life--not due to clinical depression, but rather because of traumatic childhood experiences, psychological problems, and just plain being a naturally intellectual and neurotic person--and this is the only answer I have found.
The gallows in my garden, people say, Is new and neat, and adequately tall. I tie the noose on in a knowing way, As one that knots his necktie for a ball. But just as all the neighbors on the wall, Are drawing a long breath to shout hooray, The strangest whim has seized me, after all: I think I will not hang myself today.
Tomorrow is the time I get my pay. My uncle's sword is hanging in the hall. I see a little cloud all pink and grey; Perhaps the rector's mother will not call. I fancy that I heard from Mr. Gall That mushrooms could be cooked another way; I never read the works of Juvenal; I think I will not hang myself today.
The world will have another washing day, The decadents decay, the pedants pall: And H.G. Well has found that children play: And Bernard Shaw discovered that they squall. Rationalists are growing rational, And through thick woods one finds a stream astray, So secret that the very sky seems small: I think I will not hang myself today.
Envoi
Prince, I can hear the Trumpet of Germinal, The Tumbrils toiling up the terrible way, Even today your royal head may fall: I think I will not hang myself today.
-A Ballade of Suicide by G.K. Chesterton
I realize this is rather rambling and borderline incomprehensible, but I hope, if you read this, that it is in some way helpful for you. God bless you, my good sir, no matter what silly things you do, and know that you will always have at least one fan. I will pray for you.
Imagine that this world is just a simulation that you have been dropped down into to fool around in for a little while. In that scenario, you wouldn't waste your time brooding about absolute meaning, you would explore, experiment, pick a role to play and take pride in your performance. Lack of purpose can be discouraging if you're looking for absolute values to measure and justify your actions. But it can be liberating when you realize that you are free to create your path and identity without ultimate consequence.
Find a reason bro. I went through a long period that wasnt good. I started traveling, meet new ppl. Fell in and out of love, then in again. If the big stuff sucks, then look forward to the little things.
I agree completely with your OP. It reflects my own experiences (with depression) very well...
People often try to make these things matters of philosophy (which it is, I guess). But they often forget the initial proposition, they get caught up in the argument. Yes, theres no point to life. That often gets me down as well, I wonder "why bother?". But there's no point in dying either. Life is a ride, and whether you like it or not, you dont know what its about; all the up & downs, all the experiences etc. That's the funny thing, you cant know untill you're very end. Was it worth or not?
I guess we wont know for another 50 years. Blog about your conclusion then. As for now, we just have to stick to it
Depression is emotional/psychological death. Not spiritual (which is more of a inner rebirth) and definitely not physical, but purely psychological. Tyler has described this death thoroughly with his first hand experience and I thank him for sharing. It's tricky to defibrilate your psychological state/emotional state because even if you did have motivation, it would subside because of the very fact that you're dead emotionally. What you say is so honest, Tyler, thank you again for talking to us about it.
Edit: If there's one way of putting what most people feel when they realise what they live for is mere nothingness, it's that they momentarily become Gilgamesh and have an episode where they realise that things have an end, so why bother with anything in the first place? Quite a powerful moment a person can experience, and I think virtually everyone in the planet has experienced this at least once.
I have been feeling the same the past ~10 year of my life. I have to say, I now notice it's indeed episodical but, the trend is towards faster episodes with longer duration.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons.
What is irrational is to eliminate the possibility that feelings are reasons.
Feelings certainly add to our experiences. And what we experience is our reality. I think you are making too many assumptions.
My reasons are perfectly good. Maybe not for you, and with that what you mean to say is "No one has ever given [me] a good reason.
And possibly no one ever can. What you have to do is go out and give yourself a reason. Not bring other people down with you. For me, I had to better myself before I could have a reason. Maybe you should try to do the same.
I feel bad for you. You have absolutely nothing. And until you find the motivation to go out and get something, you will be miserable. Work on bettering yourself first. Not for me, not for "fans", not for your family, or close friends, but for YOU.
I'm glad you still feel that spark somewhere in you NonY. That in and of itself is incredibly important to get through a deep depression. That, and picking yourself up again and continuing to pursue goals, even when it feels hopeless. I'm glad you are still doing that too.
I have been dealing with depression myself for a very very long time. From my experience, although a big part of depression is often questioning the reason or asking "What's the point?", the biggest waste of time is the depression itself. And even with this realization that depression is even more pointless and reasonless than life, I still can't shake myself out of my own depression. Depression is extremely difficult and there is no easy answer, but the best, and only, thing you can do is pick yourself up and continue forward. Best of luck to you NonY.
So does depression always have this cyclical, returning nature? Because after a couple of years I just started treatment for mine, and when (if) its gone I really really really don't want it to come back.
On October 10 2012 06:08 Kasu wrote: So does depression always have this cyclical, returning nature? Because after a couple of years I just started treatment for mine, and when (if) its gone I really really really don't want it to come back.
It's very prone to it, but no, its not always cyclical. Some people will respond very well to medications or treatments and you'll go on just fine.
Some people have said it just lifted from them at some point (Sarah Silverman has done a number of interviews to that effect) and they could just feel a difference. But for many others, it will be a more permanent issue that you can manage, but not really 'cure'.
On October 10 2012 06:08 Kasu wrote: So does depression always have this cyclical, returning nature? Because after a couple of years I just started treatment for mine, and when (if) its gone I really really really don't want it to come back.
It's very prone to it, but no, its not always cyclical. Some people will respond very well to medications or treatments and you'll go on just fine.
Some people have said it just lifted from them at some point (Sarah Silverman has done a number of interviews to that effect) and they could just feel a difference. But for many others, it will be a more permanent issue that you can manage, but not really 'cure'.
If the fall is harder the better one feels. Then all the more reason to fall, if that is the way upwards.
I find a perhaps leading question from your text: How do we "stop" the need of analysis and understanding? How do we let things just be instead of analysing things, if it can the reduce feeling which leads us. Analysing isn't all bad right? To me acceptance and living in the moment is the key. Nothing new there. But I've been apathic, depressed, out of sleep, having fear driving my core, trying to think my way out of things only actions can solve. And today I’m in another place.
I can't always keep my head clear or my spark alive. Noone can. Some people are just unaware of the spark being able to stop burning. (Luckily so? Or do their eyes miss things we can see? ) Once a month a rough week comes, bringing me down. But I've found stations where to stop my overthinking at such times. When a new trouble comes to my mind it can hit me hard. But over time I will learn of it’s irrationality and how far it’s logical for me to follow it. ( In many cases I’ll just see it from a distance and never listen to it, keep doing what I planned to do) I push through this hopeless week. And trust that even though I find no hope, it's always out there. The harder I look for it the better it hides. If it's easier to find hope by not looking for it, then that's the direction in which I create habits for my thoughts. A symbolic picture of this is a man out in the rain with an umbrella. Hope is every raindrop and it’s a neverending rain. The umbrella is there as a shield against the hail which is anything unpleasant we fear emotionally. The umbrella is our fear.
I do not know you and you don’t know me. And the picture I've gotten of you from the internet may be completely wrong. But I think you lay a lot of value in intelligence and understanding. We’ll always need that part. But if we've got a lot of it then we should investigate the simpler perspective which one might miss out on otherwise. Kierkegaard called some human beings "Knights of faith". People who'll never reach a certain objectivity, a perspective outside of man and time. They just accept their time and live in it. It doesn't mean stupidity. (relative yes) It involves living in the present and accepting things as they are.
I can do that today. I couldn't last week. But today I can. Today is one of those days when I use my distance towards people full of shit and outthink them and laugh at them, at the same time engaging emotionally in things I care about, people I care about.
What you explained in your text was” not feeling”. That’s not what I’ve described here. But I’ve been there. And I’m not there today.
On October 09 2012 14:23 Garnet wrote: There's also no point to death...
I used to think that there's no rewarding thoughs about death, only accepting it and moving on with the day fills a function. But I've added a thought before the part of moving on.
There are no angels according to my reasoning. But if there was, they'd envy our fragile lives and switch their eternity for it any second. Eternity makes everything pointless. It's a life without contrasts and spark. Our spark is there because we will die one day. Death fills the function of giving us meaning. A reason to act, a reason to not die today. We keep on living because everyday is new, and all things can change.
On October 10 2012 06:08 Kasu wrote: So does depression always have this cyclical, returning nature? Because after a couple of years I just started treatment for mine, and when (if) its gone I really really really don't want it to come back.
It's very prone to it, but no, its not always cyclical. Some people will respond very well to medications or treatments and you'll go on just fine.
Some people have said it just lifted from them at some point (Sarah Silverman has done a number of interviews to that effect) and they could just feel a difference. But for many others, it will be a more permanent issue that you can manage, but not really 'cure'.
Thanks. Good to know.
So far I had it very cyclically for like 8 years, never feeling like it was really gone though when I was cycling away from it cause I still had the basic negative thoughts and thought pattern, and then earlier this year when my anxiety and depression were worse than ever I did an intensive group therapy for a few months that had a great therapist and started new medication and now I think mine's really gone and I've gotten very comfortable with myself.
The emphasis that really helped for me was on being extremely non-judgmental with myself, challenging myself every time I think I "did this wrong" or "said this wrong" or am "doing life wrong" or "being a no-life/loser" when really there's no real wrong way to live or whatever, there's just who you are and everyone reacts to society differently and has their own coping strategies. And also learning how to set good mental boundaries.
And for me it really helped seeing other people who could share openly in a safe place because everyone struggles with different things, so you get good input on why other people don't struggle with what you do, and you realize what things you are secure with and don't struggle like other people with.
It's simple. You're fucked. I don't mean in a permanent way, but in a way that barrages your mind with calamity, where in the external reality it's actually much more serene but probably similarly disturbing. I think as humans we're petty, vindicative, egotistical, etc. There's no denying that, but when you break it down to it's just you and other dudes and dudettes experiencing things.. it gets a bit easier. If you focus on the sensation of the nose its even easier to pin point. It gets less about being right and more about realizing the situation. I probably sound crazy, but that's alright! Enjoy your game
what I understood in your blog is that people who are not depressed (temporarily or in general) just chose not to think about it too much and let slide any bad thought about the reason of thing. Well I can explain why you are mistaken
take the people who ask this kind of question as a vocation, as a life work. what does a neurobiologist think when he's happy? he probably knows what's going on and yet he probably doesn't think of it as insignificant compared to the grand scheme of things. there's no pretending to be all right here, there's no so-called void that waits in the darkness under every legitimate question one can ask. You're right, happiness is a very human thing so why making a big fuss over it? But so is irrationality, so why would you care if you can't find a solution that stands up to your human standards?
you've been given life, as everyone else, just take it for what it is because that's the only thing you have for granted.
I wouldn't mind hearing more about this. I've 'felt depressed' often enough, but the more I hear about it I don't think I've ever had clinical depression, and it sort of interests me.
also I love nony and wish he was my noona. just imagining nony's smile makes me start smiling myself sometimes.
I deal with similar stuff. The best way I've found of dealing with it is staying busy and trying to help my loved ones. Even if life is pointless at least you can make it a little bit less shit for the people around you.
On October 09 2012 14:19 corpuscle wrote: Every time I read a thread like this, I regret reading the comments because it just reinforces how misinformed people are about depression.
People who are clinically depressed are not just going through a rough patch, they don't need logical answers to their issues, they aren't just being whiny. It's a disease, not a state of mind.
If you think you're being helpful by pointing out why a depressed person "should" be happy or suggesting ways to get out of a temporary bad mood, you're not being helpful. It sounds silly, but that's pretty much the same thing as telling someone who has the flu that you're totally fine and they should do X, Y, and Z and they'll be healthy again. It just doesn't work that way, and you're being demeaning to people who suffer from depression when you belittle it by saying they're just being irrational.
I guess I can't relate to any of that
why not just take medicine?
Antidepressants provide some relief, but they don't cure/prevent/treat anything. They're like painkillers... if you have a busted knee, they give you percs so you can go through PT and actually fix the problem without it being excruciating.
antidepressants + therapy then
don't just sit there and do nothing
he probably has people looking out for him, he has a fiance afaik... (I'm guessing in his current state of mind he wouldn't go out and seek help by himself)
it's not like therapy and antidepressants is an instant fix... it's a complicated disease that has only been acknowledged as a real thing for 30-40 years, so nobody actually knows how to cure it. it's also worth noting that even someone who's relatively stable and happy can have depressive episodes, especially when stressed
Calling it a complicated disease is debatable. Also, all the things you've described are aspects of life. We have trials, we have stresses, we try to cope, sometimes we cope poorly. Sometimes we get blue. These are most often situational influences, over "chemical imbalances." Life is depressing a lot of times. We are not inflicted with some mysterious disease.
You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
I'm listening
The fact that you are unaware of what distinguishes clinical depression from feeling "blue" reveals a deep seated ignorance about the issue, yet you insist on thrusting forth your uninformed opinion against those with first hand experience. Have you read any Socrates? You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.
If you ask me any human being old enough has experienced 20 + years of emotion and internal thought process. Seems like enough to be a professional at just about any other topic to me.
This "dont talk about something you don't know about" garbage is just a cheap, lowbrow debate tool used to demean those who think differently than you or come to a different conclusion. Especially when delivered in a lazy one-liner with no backup what-so-ever.
Sometimes a persons ignorance can be obvious but his statement seems well thought out and reasoned just fine, you don't have to read some text book on a subject or have taken a class to come to a conclusion on it. Especially something as complex and yet so close to all of us as human emotion , are you claiming you know everything there is to know? no one does on the subject.
Also philosophers are over rated . Just because they are better at articulating things doesn't mean they were the only/ first people to conceptualize the ideals they became famous for. The only people worth idolizing are chess champions and S- Class starcraft players
Its kind of fascinating to look at life through your eyes, I didn't realize it was so fundamentally pointless when feelings no longer exist, even though its so logical I never considered how life would be like without these emotions that most people take for granted. When I read your post I feel like we're basically a type of drug addict, and life is pointless without that addiction.
But finding happiness seems rational enough to me. And if you don't feel happiness, you should try to do your best to find it again, or set yourself up so that when your emotions come back to you you can enjoy them fully. I think depression can be a useful tool in that way, allowing you to do things that you dislike without feeling any negative emotions - understanding that when happiness come back to you, you'll have prepared the way to enjoy it all the more.
In the mean time, I guess meditation and exercise might help? Anyway, hopefully you find a way to use those muted emotions to help you. With all our understanding of brain plasticity, I feel like there should be an answer on the horizon somewhere
People fall into a bit of depression especially if they start comparing themselves to others.
I'll take myself for example:
I'm 24, just graduated from a commerce degree (did it part time cuz I was working full time). I work in a computer repair shop with my dad. I drive a honda civic, renting a place with a mate, don't have a gf and earning enough to get by with bit of saving. Some may think I'm in a good boat but I don't think so. I think should be doing better.
I compare myself to others for example. Same age, graduated the same degree 2 years ago, they got a well-paid+stable (double of my income) job in a large company, married, bought a house. I see a growing gap of how inferior I am when I compare myself to them which puts me down. I envy them.
BUT, I look at myself again on the bright side. I learned how to cook, wash, look after myself, study while working full-time, managed to save enough to buy a car while living out of home. I've also got my friends, family (albeit separated) and my lovely cat.
Happiness is achieved when you've put aside the differences between you and everyone else, embrace what you have, pursue what you want. Acknowledge that there are people in a shitter boat than you, but also a lot of people on a better boat than you.
Ignorance is bliss. Would you rather be the fool who spends his life getting wasted every night trying to get laid, or to be enlightened as you currently are?
Nihilism is normal for intelligent human beings. Feeling constant happiness is completely unsustainable given our biochemistry.
Yes, life is meaningless. Happiness is meaningless. Among other things, life is suffering.
Life is a sequence of experiences generated by the human brain. We receive inputs through our five senses, and our brain generates some particular biochemical response. Simple I/O.
An interesting thought experiment then: what are all the possible experiences that the human brain can generate? We can model human experience as a high (or infinite) dimensional manifold, where the axes of the Euclidean spaces represent some particular scalar quantity - say 'amount of force (N) applied to our left leg' at a particular instant in spacetime. But we can even short-circuit that. With a so called experience machine attached to our brain, we can pass in the same neuronal input as if a force of that magnitude actually was applied to our left leg. This machine would then theoretically be able to generate every single possible human experience.
For many people, things like sex and chocolate are simply "inefficient" mechanisms for triggering certain experiences. In the near future, a happiness / excitement / enthusiasm / whatever-emotion-you-want pill. Later on, fully functional experience machines.
Anyways, enough on that. One way to 'hack' your brain that may or may not help:
- Completely detach from everything: all desires, cravings, and aversions.
True choice is the gift of detachment. Only when you are truly detached can you freely choose among the choices you are aware of in your mental realm (based on morals, ethics, values, flip of a coin, whatever).
To oversimplify this, assign everything in life some scalar value, where given true choice - you would choose the option with the highest assigned value. Obviously these values dynamically change given the current context.
In this case, you don't need to *feel* motivated to do anything - you have no aversions or desires for anything - you simply do what has a higher value within your mental construct.
Rejecting worldly "desires, cravings, aversions" seems to be the opposite of experiencing life. Without these sensations, what are we? We are but humans. To be completely detached is to be dead. I mean really, you would have to be actually dead to be fully detached. If you ask me, a little indulgence and risk-taking actually improves things a little bit. It's certainly more efficient than sulking.
It's just awkward in this case because OP draws attention to himself through some act deemed "unprofessional" and then makes a blog like this to imply that this influencing his actions. I think we all know what Tyler wants to say, but it's kind of like the elephant in the room now.
Its probably been said before in this thread, but people who haven't felt real depression really can't 100% relate with what Tyler is talking about. Depression isn't something you can just understand from a reading or hearing someones story. You have to live it. You have to live the war, a war you lose when you win and lose when you win. Obviously there are varying levels of depression and what some can "handle" is unbearable to others, but it doesn't change the way it effects you. What Tyler says about the diminishment of his ability to feel the need to "want" happiness is something I had to deal with also, and in my opinions the hardest point to beat on your own. Imagine fighting a wall that only becomes larger the harder you try, only to crush you once you've given up.You try so hard to have a good time and relax away from the thoughts, but they always find a way to creep back in. The fact that Tyler is able to write this post is a wonderful, wonderful thing, something I wish I could have done when I was buried in it.
A lot of out there responses to this post, I dare to say a lot of... naivety.
Nony, I've had these same exact thoughts myself. The epiphany, the understanding that took me beyond these thoughts of "rationality" is that rationality and reason are merely after-the-fact justifications for the emotional problems we experience in the first place. It is all nothing but chemicals in the brain. If you experience depression, it will be inexplicable because it is purely biological, physiological, and so we come up with cognitive explanations or justifications for what we are experiencing. Most often these are existential "rational" questioning of the meaning of life. But the actual reality of the matter is that if only the chemicals in our brain behaved in the same manner as the average person, we would have no real concern with the meaning of life and all this existential bullshit which the average person never even thinks about on the average daily basis.
What I'm saying is reason has absolutely nothing to do with what we feel or how we experience life, humans are fundamentally emotion/instinctive/animal beings, and rationality is a myth which we use to justify what we feel naturally. The rationality isn't WRONG per se, but if you are in the right state of mind, the rationality of the existential dilemma becomes IRRELEVANT.
This is the sort of thing people have to recognize and reach on their own and in the meantime they will placate and rationalize their feelings with these sorts of existential assessments. But there is no salvation, no exit, in these dead-end outlets for thought and analysis. We are all human, all too human. Which is to say, we are animals with animalistic desires and cravings, and rationality or purpose in existence has never predated action in life, it has come as an after-the-fact assessment or justification.
There is a real freedom in finally recognizing that the ghosts you are chasing of meaning are actually phantoms, they are the imaginings of an unhealthy mind. There is no good in placating ourselves with a feeling of superiority over those who have healthy minds and therefore are capable of living and seeking happiness with no rational explanation or justification, with no reason... It is not the reason that is lacking, it is the inherent biological satisfaction with daily life. It is biology, chemistry, physiology, NOT reason, that is lacking.
On October 10 2012 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote: A lot of out there responses to this post, I dare to say a lot of... naivety.
Nony, I've had these same exact thoughts myself. The epiphany, the understanding that took me beyond these thoughts of "rationality" is that rationality and reason are merely after-the-fact justifications for the emotional problems we experience in the first place. It is all nothing but chemicals in the brain. If you experience depression, it will be inexplicable because it is purely biological, physiological, and so we come up with cognitive explanations or justifications for what we are experiencing. Most often these are existential "rational" questioning of the meaning of life. But the actual reality of the matter is that if only the chemicals in our brain behaved in the same manner as the average person, we would have no real concern with the meaning of life and all this existential bullshit which the average person never even thinks about on the average daily basis.
What I'm saying is reason has absolutely nothing to do with what we feel or how we experience life, humans are fundamentally emotion/instinctive/animal beings, and rationality is a myth which we use to justify what we feel naturally. The rationality isn't WRONG per se, but if you are in the right state of mind, the rationality of the existential dilemma becomes IRRELEVANT.
This is the sort of thing people have to recognize and reach on their own and in the meantime they will placate and rationalize their feelings with these sorts of existential assessments. But there is no salvation, no exit, in these dead-end outlets for thought and analysis. We are all human, all too human. Which is to say, we are animals with animalistic desires and cravings, and rationality or purpose in existence has never predated action in life, it has come as an after-the-fact assessment or justification.
There is a real freedom in finally recognizing that the ghosts you are chasing of meaning are actually phantoms, they are the imaginings of an unhealthy mind. There is no good in placating ourselves with a feeling of superiority over those who have healthy minds and therefore are capable of living and seeking happiness with no rational explanation or justification, with no reason... It is not the reason that is lacking, it is the inherent biological satisfaction with daily life. It is biology, chemistry, physiology, NOT reason, that is lacking.
Spot on, and this is also the other piece that fell into place when I shed my depression. I trust my feelings and instincts to be the main filter for understanding the world and use my rational analysis (which is very sharp, I know I'm intelligent) mainly to understand what the feelings are and why they are what they are and to have justifications for them I can buy into (your rational mind will never just lay down and give up, but justifying or challenging feelings lets be at work, but positively for you). Before I would always look to my analytical thinking to understand every situation and the questions of existence but this never comes to a satisfactory right answer.
Rationality and logic are overrated. They are good at creating true statements from true statements. Or equivalently true statements of the form "if A then B". People who talk about having meaning in their lives either rely on faulty logic or some arbitrary premise.
I guess my point is it is up to each one of us to find that little arbitrary spark we can base our own meaning on. The ultimate WHY is deeply personal and fundamentaly non-rational.
I'm not trying to ignore the daily fight against depression. I know first hand how it can influence your perception, thoughts and even your values. I'm just making the (ironically rational) point that the lack of rational meaning for life is not a problem. It's simply a feature of reality, that doesn't prevent true happiness, even when fully recognized.
The real reason for depression remains in the brain chemistry, maladaptive thought patterns and negative life-situations they often lead to. When these problems are fixed the question of WHY will be seen as the non-issue it truly is.
<3 you Nony, i'm working through my depression too man. you need to make some NonY-Strong bracelets for depression. I'd wear one every day to remind me to fight through it. Even if you make mistakes know that those of us in similar situations that see you here in TL get strength from that. thanks man.
Tyler, you've missed the big picture. What is the purpose of every living thing on this planet ? It is to reproduce and live in harmony. Cells, plants, animals undestood that but you didn't. Come on, are you smarter than them ? Seems not. You can be happy while living in harmony. Get a girlfriend, help others, have fun because this is the purpose of life. Problem solved and don't thank me (I am only doing my purpose in life).
Nothing fucking matters. You are one of 6 billion meatbags of *sorely* limited longevity on a ball of dirt and metal, orbiting one ball of hydrogen that will die out, out of however many billions of balls of hydrogen separated by space that is increasing into an inevitable cold death of the universe where nothing happens.
Here's an idea: Stop. Fucking. Caring.
Right in front of you, you got food to eat, people to interact with, chemically-induced highs to get, and a place where there's so much to do to alleviate boredom that you can live a hundred lifetimes and not do it all. Pick something to do, or lots of things to do and enjoy the ride.
On October 10 2012 17:00 scrubtastic wrote: Nothing fucking matters. You are one of 6 billion meatbags of *sorely* limited longevity on a ball of dirt and metal, orbiting one ball of hydrogen that will die out, out of however many billions of balls of hydrogen separated by space that is increasing into an inevitable cold death of the universe where nothing happens.
Here's an idea: Stop. Fucking. Caring.
Right in front of you, you got food to eat, people to interact with, chemically-induced highs to get, and a place where there's so much to do to alleviate boredom that you can live a hundred lifetimes and not do it all. Pick something to do, or lots of things to do and enjoy the ride.
Do you not realize that people are incapable of "JUST stop caring" or "JUST enjoy the ride"? If it was as simple as "I'm gonna tell myself to feel something and it will happen" then everyone on the fucking planet would be ecstatic with joy 24 hours a day. You and everyone who advocates this "JUST feel this way" approach are really displaying a fundamental misunderstanding of basic human psychology.
Imagine if you drank 6 shots and then I told you "JUST stop being drunk."
On October 10 2012 17:00 scrubtastic wrote: Nothing fucking matters. You are one of 6 billion meatbags of *sorely* limited longevity on a ball of dirt and metal, orbiting one ball of hydrogen that will die out, out of however many billions of balls of hydrogen separated by space that is increasing into an inevitable cold death of the universe where nothing happens.
Here's an idea: Stop. Fucking. Caring.
Right in front of you, you got food to eat, people to interact with, chemically-induced highs to get, and a place where there's so much to do to alleviate boredom that you can live a hundred lifetimes and not do it all. Pick something to do, or lots of things to do and enjoy the ride.
What if there's nothing left to enjoy? What if the only thing you enjoy inevitably brings you to crushing lows? What if your life seems doomed to repeat a cycle of success/happiness > demotivation > prolonged loss/hopelessness, and you don't have control over the trigger back to happiness, nor the duration of it?
Anyone who tries to make life out to be simple is being incredibly dishonest with either themselves or the world. That kind of simplification helps most people function, but for those who have had that veil lifted (usually young), it's incredibly difficult. Becoming emotionally healthy is a long and arduous process that the naturally 'healthy' can't/won't understand.
Not gonna lie - I wasn't really trying to help out here, and I didn't think this thread was being taken as seriously as you guys are taking it; I apologize.
Yes I have good control over my emotions, yes life is good for me right now, yes my brain is probably wired differently. I find it pretty easy to not care and get distracted, if I so choose.
But again I didn't really expect all this seriousness and I'm definitely not helping.
NonY, I appreciate how you and other posters in this thread give an insight in what it's like to be in the shitstorm that is depression. It helps me understand better, although I can't (and hopefully won't) fully grasp what it's like.
What stings me is that many people react with "Just cheer up man!" or "You should just be happy, look around you, everything's fine". They don't realize that being in a depression is (among other things) the inability to do just that. It's like telling someone with insomnia to "just go to sleep". It's a simple thing... as long as you don't have insomnia.
Be strong, be wise, and thanks (all of you) for sharing your thoughts.
there is no reason to live and no meaning behind it all. in the end, well all end up dying.
- im most likely useless for the development of mankind - mankind is unimportant for the development of the universe --> there is absolutly no sense in my existence.
So hey, there is no point in being depressed and make ur life worse because of it. Just do the best of it, have fun, do whatever you like.
thats how i see life. had depression issues for over 2 years, im feeling very good now, even though i know we are useless :D
I wasn't going to write something as I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on depression and stuff like that
But then I read your fan page and you should just quit sc2 If you dont care about anymore, I think you are being hypocritical here and that post was basically saying it all
You are around here since forever and therefore you have quite a lot credit (rightfully so) but you should just retire I guess
Are our bodies not just complex chemical reactions that we do not control, and thus all of our actions are predetermined in some way, yet unpredictable? Even our reflections on such a thing are the result of all of the chemical reactions preceding those thoughts, and the understand we gain will have been predetermined by the reactants and environment of the reaction. I can really connect with what you are saying about how it all boils down to irrationality.
Dealt with this my whole life, depression isn't about being "sad" it's about how a chemical imbalance in your brain makes you unable to function as you normally would. Some people are predisposed to this condition, while other factors like education and religion (lack there-of) can augment it. Honestly Tyler, the reason to live is truly about being happy, though for those who can't find what makes them happy the reason is moot. The cure to all of this is, surprisingly, having kids. So go through life, do what you like, but when time comes when you start talking family and the "what now?" question in your relationship, just know that whatever your conception of family life is now, it's going to be completely inaccurate compared to the real thing no matter how well developed you think your concept is. Hang in there!
The good thing about depression? It ends. Not permanently, of course. But the downers are periods. Maybe long periods. Longer than the ups. More frequent than the ups. That spark'll wake up again, fire you up, send you into a frenzy of energy and creativity. For a while, at least. It'll end, of course. It always ends. But so will the depression. Again.
Purpose. That's what I've been imagining I've been missing for long. A reason to pursue my goals. A reason to hone my skill. Some sort of heart-felt, pure desire to improve, to use my incredible talents and my intellect. And I do.
Then it ends.
Then I think - maybe this is self-inflicted? Am I just a whiny bitch, a product of being raised in a safe, peaceful time, with such comfort and stability around me? Am I wasting my chances in life because I lack the self-motivation, the self-discipline to go through with my desires? I mean, look around you - there's so many people, so incredibly passionate, pursuing their goals, whatever they may be. Day after day, week after week, month after month. Music, art, fitness, studies, jobs.
Friends. Life. Love.
Then I think - maybe I'm simply lacking a purpose?
Before, I thought I needed a girlfriend. Someone to connect me emotionally. That didn't help.
Then, I thought it was an education, a carreer potential. That didn't help.
Nowadays, I'm thinking I need a child. A wife. A family. Surely, that must force me to do what I need to, right? To give me purpose?
What if that doesn't help?
Then the depression ends. Again. The ups come. Again.
On October 11 2012 02:09 Samhax wrote: The answer is very simple : the only purpose of life is to worship our Lord.
My 2 cents.
Created by an all powerful being solely to grovel at his feet? Now THAT'S depressing. I'm sure she he it couldn't be so shallow.
he doesn't have feet
For me, he is the only one who can cure hearts and souls. But faith can't be explained, it's a feeling in your heart that complete your life. i wish everybody could know what it is...
I usually don't like being open about things like these but I too "suffer" from depression. It's actually really bad times. But as you said Nony it's episodic. Sometimes I'm on top of the world, sometimes I'm on the bottom, and heck sometimes I'm nowhere to be found.
It's funny because I pride myself on being an extremely rational person. Yet the way I choose to live my life is sporadic and well from an outside view it's very irrational. Yet I say "Why must I live my life this way? The way I was told I have to live from birth.", it seems irrational to have to live because "that's just the way it is." or else when people say "Get a life!"; getting a life entails what exactly? Get a career, get married, have kids? It all sounds so unappealing to me. I'm plagued with thoughts of suicide and I constantly question life and it's meaning. I doubt I'll ever kill myself though.
I've struggled with it almost my whole life. It started when I was 13 and by time I was 15 I had an official diagnosis. I've always felt different and I'm always buried in my thoughts. I think that's what really causes it. I can't stop thinking. I relive my life through my head every waking moment without living in the current. It's why I get drunk, so I can stop thinking. thankfully drinking isn't a problem for me. It's just a temporary fix that I require every few weeks haha.
Anyway I wish you all the best from a fellow man who has depression.
Life isn't about yourself. It's never about just one person. One person's happiness is a factor of the happiness of those around them, as is that happiness's longevity, so looking for happiness in a hobby is only a temporary solution to a very long-term problem. The more that you think about this and ponder it, the more it will make sense.
I was going to post something here, talking about experiences with depression both the reactions of my family who have tested me for clinical depression, fun times (i'm not), and a family member who is clinically depressed (and has told me that I am no where near as depressed as they are, also fun in a not-really kinda way). Instead I am going to quote the post that I agree with, especially on the good days.
On October 09 2012 17:31 Rekrul wrote: theres always a reason and that reason is WHY THE HELL NOT
Best post in whole thread. And if there's a reason, don't do it :D.
Tl;dr Most fun, least regrets. ( != YOLO)
Also
I've been told most of my life, do not sweat the little things. And for most of my life I have misunderstood it.
I've always understood it as don't let it show that it bothers you, when you're actually not supposed to let it bother you... Go Figure ^^.
Anyways. On a final note: I am always saddened when I hear that one of my SC2 idols is battling with his problem. I admire Nony and his practice regime. My hotkeys are based off of his. My theory crafting sessions are based off of his (both sourced from SOTG). I respect that he has made sacrifices for his sport, and that he has been forced to sacrifice the sport for things, and yet he is still able to be on the edge of glory. I hear he is owning it up in HotS, and am gladdened that he may be on the cusp of the breakout performance that will leave his mark on the foreign scene forever. I strongly suspect that the SC2 meta is lessened by his absence from the top top level, and I eagerly await his return after he has sorted out what he needs to sort out.
@Nony; You are probably battling things I can't understand, But I just want you to know that there are people like me out there, waiting for you to get ready for your big move, and come into the SC2 world. I believe that since you have continued to stick around playing SC2, and remain on that precarious edge for so long, you are truly dedicated to the sport, and its all the distractions of your problem that have been preventing you. I wish you all the best, and if there is anything I can do to help, even if its be the recipient of a random PM for w/e reason, don't hesitate
I also want to clarify, that while we are waiting for you, don't take anymore pressure onto yourself.
Get well soon, and may the light at the end of the tunnel continue to grow
As simple as it seems why do you have to think about this. Don't let your mind dwell and live in the moment. As someone who has spent hours contemplating my role in life and what it means I have to tell you that you won't find any answers.
You're right Tyler. In life there is no winning, but there sure is losing. If only there was a reason so that we might have the courtesy of an objective purpose. Intelligent people must come to terms with this at some point in their lifetime - and depression often goes hand in hand with that. But you're a smart guy and you should keep trekking because the world needs its smarties. "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know. " - Hemingway
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality.
Life is so fun even when it's full of BS. I recently loss someone I valued soo much. I thought how her death crippled me and my family but I realized that we must be strong for those around us. Something bad happening is inevitable, you have to bounce back, you owe it to your loved ones and yourself!
You got too much to learn. Find an asylum for the old and help there 2 points in this: 1. You'll get to talk with people with more knowledge than many in this forum, not about technology or trends but about life. After all, they are on the final stage.... They know how is it to approach the end and not be able to do a thing and yet they wait in patience. 2. You will help someone else. For the sake of doing good. Happiness... that is a gift and it is so simple. That is something you decide, it isn't bought, earned or achieved. It's a decision, does it matter the reason? Then why is 1 + 1= 2? There is no reason for that... that is just the way it is. (Don't bring your multi-dimension and #/0 here, you geeky colleagues)
Rational thinking on why we live? Evolution Change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by mutation, natural selection and genetic drift. Does it matter? meh. Who cares, we only have one life. Just Evolve dude and you'll be fine. How hard can that be?
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it.
This happens to me a lot. More than I'd like.
Thanks for the blog. Keeping my head up high as much as possible.
On October 09 2012 13:39 travis wrote: What point to life would you possibly expect, lol.
You get hungry right? Do you go eat when you get hungry?
Let go of your longing and just be happy with what is right in front of your face!
wow that post is so unbelievably ignorant, it's appalling. What else can I just be? Can i just be an NFL quarterback? Can I just be a president? Can blind just see? Can mute just talk? Seriously.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it.
This happens to me a lot. More than I'd like.
Thanks for the blog. Keeping my head up high as much as possible.
Quiet honestly, it's PTSD. You get flashbacks of your lowest of lows and experience all the other symptoms.
On October 11 2012 07:23 LuckyFool wrote: Life is too short to worry about things like this.
Enjoy the gift of life while your alive, you only get to once.
But this is exactly the reason we should keep wondering, isn't it? If we don't seek answers constantly, if we don't demand the universe to tell us what is going on and keep digging, we will stagnate and ultimately end up worse than where we started.
Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be happy. That's what makes life worth living, isn't it? I just believe that we can't just let it be.
i've never until now considered it a lack of basic feeling (maybe a denial of feelings, though). i like to think that i take a lot of views into account, but i am still so self-centered---focused on dealing with the feelings and thoughts i have instead of considering all the other views out there that others will have.
unlike a diminishing or dampening of feelings, i feel that they're taken to extreme sensitivity. that sensitivity feels exclusive and personal to me, yet it is not. the experience of realizing my depression becomes a train of thoughts, much like this post. the end result is similar to what everyone else experiences over this.
the difference i feel is that for me, i think and feel that it is a necessity to 'fall' in the way i do. it is not about an expectation of any sorts... not an expectation of when it will happen, how it will happen, or what others are constantly expecting of me. it is the act of recognizing my current state of emotions and embracing them as far as they'll go. that is what helps me feel alive at times.
my emotions become extensive and i don't feel like myself when around others. i guess that's where a sense of humility.. in being human lays you are i are men among others, yet we are important in so many ways that can't be seen
I'm depressed too but it's been a lot worse a year ago and while I have my bad days I can also smile and enjoy again.
But all the psychologist talk, mindfulness sessions, many more stuff like that. All well meant but nothing helped. Actually things started to go better when I ended it all, work, shrink, even some friendships and locked me up in my flat for 3 months, didn't see anyone and eventually arose from the ashes. (in all fairness, the mindfulness part of where I had to write down when I got depressed and what caused it helped a bit in knowing myself better and avoiding it, but all the meditation stuff etc was not for me) In the end the talking and thinking about it on a weekly base did more harm than good for me personally, of course I know many people who benifit from it. I just don't think it can help everyone.
Thinkers like you Nony have to take very great care of themself not to overthink too much. There are people who never think about anything like this, they just go to work, watch tv in the evening, talk about not much more than football, women and cars and are perfectly happy. An intelligent pondering mind is not always a bonus.
I once saw you post something like good and bad parts of yourself. One was about if I remember correctly "spirituality" being one of your bad sides. My advise to you: avoid anything related to that like the plague and focus on your good sides.
Weird thing, this short clip somehow helped me. It made me realise that I was overthinking, pondering, worrying way too much and should start to care less about some things. When I ever die, not anytime soon I hope, I want it to be on my funeral:
Depression is born of feeling guilt about the past or uncertainty concerning the future. People are not naturally depressed. The state of the world, and the state of your conscience weighs heavily into whether you experience depression. You speak of the natural state of man as though depression (which you confuse with the repression of emotion; or absence of emotion) is the natural state of even a state to be aspired to.
Most humans are born and experience childhood joyously. People take pride in their abilities and in the creation of works. Not all works are creations in the sense that some works are also deeds. Nonetheless, it's natural to be healthy, and to labor to create art that is an expression of oneself. The opinion that life is pointless neglects the possibility that people are reflected in the world, and so they seek to shape the world according to their being (if not their will).
When you look at a man in isolation, one stranded on an island of sorts then perhaps life could seem pointless. However, people are naturally drawn to interact with one another and to create things in the world. Relationships, if they are healthy, provide motivation and also satisfaction. In a properly functioning human being, you will see that humans derive joy from relationships with others who are like an expansion of ourselves. In an absence of learning and productivity, there develops a sort of despondence followed by lethargy and depression.
I disagree that life is pointless, and I don't know that bringing human reason or rationality to bear will benefit you. If your intuition is dead, and you are unable to act productively, then this as much a symptom of depression or some similar state of mind as it is a possible cause of depression. Without waxing philosophical, I'd say that motivation and positive feeling are largely innate. A rational cause for happiness is almost a contradiction in terms when you posit that motivations and positive feelings are not derived from rational causes. Instead, view yourself as a closed system. One from which your motivations and positive feelings should spring in tandem with the works you should produce.
When you abandon a path of productivity and learning, and allow a certain despondence to interfere with your behavior, then gradually your natural inclination toward happiness will also dissolve. Your environment also makes a difference? How clean is it? What do you eat, and do you sleep with correctness? You should also evaluate your contacts. Perhaps uplifting music and creative activity don't arrive naturally to someone suffering from depression. The right environment is essential.
In the star trek universe Vulcans doesn't discredit suicides in some cases as it fit the "noble suicide" whereby a vulcan commits a ritual suicide. This does in no means that it's related to suicide bombers or other acts seen as going down in flames. I wonder if humans will at some point in the future come to the same conclusion as the brilliant vulcans or even as he spiritual Klingons? There are several episodes in both VOY and TNG that covers suicides and morality which has progressed my understanding of suicides. If you are lacking a role model Jean-Luc Picard has inspired by to always strive for new horizons, friends and knowledge (both theoretical and practical like crafts, music and sport).
Seems to me that if you believe in any kind of goodness, even if that goodness is just to feel good, then you have your point to life right there.
But I sometimes wonder if feeling happy is really as important as people say it is. I don't suffer from clinical depression although some in my family do but I do know that even when your emotions are beating you to a pulp you can still choose to move forward. And maybe that's more important than feeling happy anyway.
Sorry to hear you've been struggling, Nony. Keep fighting.
Depression is physical. It is the combination of bad diet plus a lack of getting outside and lack of exercise. You should be sweating at least three times a week. You should be pushing your body ideally in the outdoors multiple times a week. If you can't get outside then do it in a gym. My depression went away when I signed up for my first running race. That was a two miler. Now I'm running half-marathons and crushing my old times.
On October 12 2012 08:35 HowitZer wrote: Depression is physical. It is the combination of bad diet plus a lack of getting outside and lack of exercise. You should be sweating at least three times a week. You should be pushing your body ideally in the outdoors multiple times a week. If you can't get outside then do it in a gym. My depression went away when I signed up for my first running race. That was a two miler. Now I'm running half-marathons and crushing my old times.
I sweat every day, doesn't really make a difference.
That said, my depression is far less severe then it was a year ago, I'm not even entirely sure if I could still be classified as someone who's depressed since I stopped showing up at the psych and all that.. Actually turned out to be a good move altough I still don't really know why, sweating sure as hell never had anything to do with it though, if anything the one time where the thought creeped into me that I wasn't "Pushing it" enough is what drove me into depression in the first place..Technically.
I'm just a naturally lazy guy ^_^ This whole "pushing it to the limit" thing never made any sense to me tbh
Sorry I don't mean to bash on people, but think about all the people living under poverty, and how happy they are if they can eat something to fill their stomach. They're not even sad or depressed about their state of poverty.. They're living happily and having fun going through life! You should not feel depressed and say there's no point in life and all that jazz, coz even other people of lesser economic standing than you never wanna throw away their lives.
The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
On October 12 2012 10:14 vpatrickd wrote: Sorry I don't mean to bash on people, but think about all the people living under poverty, and how happy they are if they can eat something to fill their stomach. They're not even sad or depressed about their state of poverty.. They're living happily and having fun going through life! You should not feel depressed and say there's no point in life and all that jazz, coz even other people of lesser economic standing than you never wanna throw away their lives.
I think this highlights a common misunderstanding about depression. Many people seem to assume that depression somehow coheres to a set of rational rules, and that therefore by applying reason to the problem the depression will go away. But as far as I know, this isn't how it works. Depression comes on whenever it darned well pleases, without any regard to reason. True, by comparison to others, many people with depression are in a better socioeconomic position than others, but that's totally irrelevant to the arrival of symptoms.
On October 12 2012 07:31 CecilSunkure wrote: Take niacin. Poor nutrition is probably your main cause of depression.
I've thought of this MANY times. But it seems like Tyler is a smart enough guy to have taken this into consideration many times over.
But to be redundant, ya, make sure you're getting all your trace minerals too, like magnesium and manganese... seems pretty silly but we would be amiss not to mention it.
For what it's worth, you're one of my hero's Tyler. TSL2 was just a sight to behold. I'll never do anything that awesome with my life and I'm totally okay with that.
Although I'm completely knowledge-less in this field, I've never met a depressed person who had kids. I don't mean it solves everything, but I guess its natural, when we fulfill all our needs the only thing to carry on is to dedicate ourselves to next generation. Otherwise life seems pointless.
On October 11 2012 02:15 tehemperorer wrote: Dealt with this my whole life, depression isn't about being "sad" it's about how a chemical imbalance in your brain makes you unable to function as you normally would. Some people are predisposed to this condition, while other factors like education and religion (lack there-of) can augment it. Honestly Tyler, the reason to live is truly about being happy, though for those who can't find what makes them happy the reason is moot. The cure to all of this is, surprisingly, having kids. So go through life, do what you like, but when time comes when you start talking family and the "what now?" question in your relationship, just know that whatever your conception of family life is now, it's going to be completely inaccurate compared to the real thing no matter how well developed you think your concept is. Hang in there!
People often say that depression is a chemical imbalance, but there's really very little evidence that that's the case. It's an unfortunate piece of misinformation perpetuated by drug companies with a vested interested in promoting that idea.
The cause of it is still pretty much uncertain, although I suspect that there are accurate theories on its cause which just haven't had the accompanying research to make them 'truth'. Personally I think most common forms of depression are caused almost purely by lifestyle. If you aren't busy enough you will probably get depressed. If you are too busy then you will probably get depressed. If you aren't eating properly, exercising enough, getting enough sun, etc etc etc, then there's a chance you'll get depressed. There is a minimum amount of things that you have to be doing in order to maintain a consistent level of contentedness, and not doing one or more of those things increases your chances of being depressed.
Somebody wrote a post that some people are just more 'naturally inclined' towards being happy. Though that may be true to a certain extent, I think the stronger argument is that those people have either purposefully or unwittingly ended up with a lifestyle that meets the minimum requirements for being happy. I've been through several episodes of depression, but since then I have modified my lifestyle and mentality to be more conducive to happiness. These days I probably appear to be a person who is 'naturally inclined' towards being happy, but I'm not. I just worked on the right things. I learned to identify the signs of an incoming episode of depression and act preemptively.
Of course, the problem with depression is that once you are depressed this information becomes much less useful since it's an affliction which reduces your very capacity for making the required changes. I don't have a solution for that, but if you've been depressed in the past then don't just wait for the next episode! There's shit that you can be doing now which will significantly reduce your chances of getting depressed again: Start exercising. Cut down the 'relaxation time' you don't actually need and fill it with activities you're passionate about. Work on improving your general every day mentality. Lie if you have to: I told people I was good at drums so that I had to be good at drums if I didn't want to look like a fool. There's plenty more you can do, too. Find happy people and see what they do with their days, then imitate them.
Whatever you do, don't let yourself believe that depression is a chemical imbalance, or any other incurable physical characteristic. It's the perfect excuse to let depression effect you for the rest of your life.
Hey, Nony. There isn't a reason for life other than living. You are not here to do anything other than exist - that's all any of us are here to do.
YOU DO NOT NEED TO REASON ANYTHING. You can, at a moment's notice, drop off the grid and go and be a hermit and the sum total of no one can stop you. Or you can trudge along, miserable, trying to make sense of 6 billion people's selfish desires and trying to reason why things happen.
Instead, appreciate who you are. Appreciate the world around you. Immerse your mind in the marvellous complexity through simplicity of the universe and all the systems within it. Go to the window on a sunny day and look into the sky. Watch the shifting complexity of the clouds. Witness and marvel at the rippling waves of water when you drop a stone into a puddle. Take heart in the little things, the big things, the discoveries, the victories and the defeats.
You are the physical manifestation of the sum of your thoughts, bound in a thin layer of carbon based clingfilm. You get exactly one opportunity to explore the world around you. Fucking do it, man. Stop moping about it, it is worth neither your time nor your considerable intelligence. You don't need to feel happy every day of your life - people who say they do are talking shit. Most people go through their lives in a permanent stress, bouncing from one catastrophe to the next wondering when the hell they get a break.
All you ever need to be is fulfilled, regardless of what that level of fulfilment is.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
I do not suffer from depression but know several people close you have/do. I, too, have felt the "weight" of the world, felt like nothing was worth doing (why go to work, it's a waste of my life, I could be doing so much more for the world, etc.).
Many people do not agree or believe in what motivates me, but my faith has given me many reasons to live. I live to give God the glory, in everything that I do. He has a purpose for my life, and knowing that there is something much greater on the other side is very calming.
I have forgotten this many times along the way, more times than I care to admit. And there will always be doubts with us. As a BSc, I have heard and thought my fair share. Sometimes it is good to ask these types of questions, but I think we can end up over-analyzing them. I would suggest that once in awhile, we stop and smell the roses, instead of trying to figure out the ins and outs of everything. I know it has helped me out along the way when it has been hard to keep going.
sometimes when you grow smarter, your heart grows harder.
P.S. Nony, you are one of my favourite players, and wish you the best.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
So let's say that I'm not particularly happy on a day to day basis because my job is a boring waste of time and I feel I should be doing more productive.
Let's also say that the argument that life is what you make of it and you instil your own meaning/routes to emotional fulfilment on the blank canvas that life is, appeals to me.
What concerns me about that is, it sounds like a very good excuse to settle with what you have and not to strive towards any kind of "goal" (OK, maybe self fulfilment is the goal but if you can create the criteria for your own fulfilment then again, what's the point in actually doing anything other than a bit of perspective adjustment).
I'm constantly deciding I'm going to do something useful with my time, learn a language, get a new qualification so I can do something slightly less dull, never followed through in the 25 years I've been knocking around so far though.
I'm not depressed , I enjoy spending time with friends etc etc., but some of the discussion around "emotional deadness" and a general feeling of the presence of an intangible "something more" struck a chord.
Nice thread by the way.
Edit: I'm aware I'm (at least attempting) to apply logic to it, still, and maybe that's the problem but it's hard to escape from!
Hey man, I hope you get through this. I've been in depression before, and I can understand the experience you're going through at the moment. But it does get better, and as bleak and dark as the future might look now, it will get better. If you know the way you're thinking is not 100% true right now and is the effect of the depression, try thinking in an irrational way about the depression itself. I know it sounds weird, but it sometimes work.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
If you have a kid, would you not protect them? Would that not give you a point to live? Does NonY only speak facts? I'm trying to give a different perspective.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Depression, in my experience, is the diminishment of these feelings. When you do something that should make you happy by all reasonable measures, you aren't happy. When you do something that should make you sad, you don't feel any worse. When you do nothing, you don't feel any different. A lack of those fundamental feelings is to blame.
There is no way to think yourself out of it because the solution is irrational. They are feelings that healthy humans have, nothing more than that. Willpower is your only tool here. You can irrationally will yourself to seek solutions. You can practice clever ways to coax those feelings back into existence. You can take medicine to promote those feelings. In any case those feelings will probably return, as depression is typically episodic, and you can start being happy again by doing what's good and doing what's right and being successful.
But the better you do the harder you'll fall when those feelings subside again and you're given another lesson about how all that "good" shit you did doesn't matter. One night when your happiness is in full swing, it'll just hit you. You wonder why you did any of it. And no matter what you do or think, your happiness is gone. Habits may carry you a while, but all motivation has vanished. You won't feel like pursuing your own happiness, but you'll feel a lot of other shit that's not so pleasant. You'll pretend nothing has changed, but it's just an act. You'll stretch your willpower to cover the void. If it's enough to bridge the gap, then congratulations on being functioning. If not, then welcome to the club.
P.S. I'm not suicidal. Don't worry about that. I've received a lot of messages from sufferers of depression, thanking me and wishing me well. Though I've responded to very few, I do feel a responsibility. And as I've been acting out this week, it worries me that someone may view my weakness as an excuse to indulge in their own, perhaps doing more damage to themselves than I'm doing to myself. I've willed myself to behave and focus for long enough to write this to remind you that our feelings are diminished, not gone. Even as I write this, I feel a spark, and I hope this reminder gives you one too.
This is all very true. The only thing that's missing is where that willpower comes from and the sad reality is that, however much you may want to be happy deep down, it depends so much on your environment and factors outside of your control. I.E: Maybe if you have the obvious love of your parents and friends then you are able to bring that out of yourself and the willpower to cope with depression comes easily, but maybe instead the parent your closest to has died and your bullied by your peers, and the willpower you need to 'cover the gap' simply isn't there.
At the end of the day, although I might not be able to do much, I'm coping right now with the thoughts that one day I may be able to help someone else. Though actually making the very large efforts, I find so difficult, and I hate myself utterly for this hypocrisy. Though, I can't say I honestly care that much about my own happiness. I view myself as a broken person, something less than a whole human. Nothing ever feels right, but still im here waiting for the chance to make myself into something greater than what I am inside.
On October 12 2012 10:37 DigiGnar wrote: The point of life is to pass on your genes. Women have orgasms to motivate them to have sex. The orgasm itself helps the guy orgasm, and after he does, the orgasm acts as a vacuum for the sperm, sucking it up to the eggs. Everything in nature is designed to survive/kill and pass on the genes.
Do you have kids, NonY? If not, I think you would see a lot of reasons for living. Not for yourself, but for your genes that you passed on.
No, this is a reason for having a reproductive system. Plenty of animals are born which are incapable of reproduction and they more often than not make up the numbers of a herd.
We are the sum of a series of chemical reactions, but that does not mean that this is our defining purpose for being. Life locally decreases entropy - that is, I think, its ultimate reason for being.
What is the reason? How are these animals born if they themselves can't reproduce? Unless you mean a sterile animal, then that's called a defect.
I have never facepalmed so hard. What do you even mean by "no"?
The fact that reproduction is encouraged by the natural state of things doesn't mean it's the point of life. There is no objective 'point of life' that you can derive directly from reality. That's what Nony was saying in his first paragraph.
If you have a kid, would you not protect them? Would that not give you a point to live? Does NonY only speak facts? I'm trying to give a different perspective.
It might give you a point to life, but it's not the point to life. It's an important distinction. Life has no preference over what you do with your time. In other words, there is no objective point to life.
If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
a person who I never met in person nor in any likelyhood ever will meet but still feel deeply connected to on account of his frequent posts regarding his innermost self(and ofc me being in a slightly similar situation)
fight his way out of this and conquer his mental illness once and for all and to then move on to whatever brings him happiness, a renewed challenge and fulfillment in life would be incredibly inspiring to me and (I daresay from reading this thread) a lot of other people.
p.s.: apologies to quoted OP if I misread his statement
On October 14 2012 18:27 RockRehab wrote: If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.
We are alive for a purpose.
And what is that purpose?
Here on TL a lot of people feel they have something to say about every freaking discussion, even when then can't relate to the content.
I had Depression for about 2 years. It is apparent that humanity is playing a game. A game that has been played by billions before us, and billions more after we die. This game called life.
Although we know that we will one day die, hell it could be within the next second. We forget this fact. We're intoxicated with this game, like a gamer who forgets to eat and dies playing endless hours of WOW. It doesn't really sink in, that,"hey a midst all this stuff that I think is important, I could die."
Our desires and ambitions keep us heavily indulged in this game for years and years, we forget our own mortality. Because once we die, everything we're, all our goals,educations, accomplishments, expectations, desires, relationships become irrelevant. And whether you die old, or young, the universe doesn't care if you've fulfilled any of these. To the Universe you were just another gear out of the billions of gears out there, and just as easily as it ends you and everything you were, it replaces you with someone with just as many desires and ambitions.
Depression happens when you realize there's no point to any of it. When your lose purpose. When you lose your desires and ambitions. The best example of this, is when a love one dies, and with in you something that once made you whole is ripped out, and a huge gaping whole is left there with nothing to fill it. It was once filled with love, now it's a painful void of emptiness. Sadness, loneliness an inability to feel happy. This can happen if you lose anyone/thing you're heavily attached to.
Depression hurts, a lot. You wake up in the morning and it hurts. You go through your daily routines with your family, it still hurts. Go to work or school, and the pain is still there. You entire day, is filled with nothing but pain. Everything that you do, from interacting with your friends, and family to your job/education is just a duty to get you through the day. Even when you laugh or smile you're in constant agony. You go to sleep, wake up the next day and do it all over again. The definition of hell.
Suicide, becomes the only escape. Because no one wants to be depressed. You develop a self hatred for your own pity full state. You want out but how? If this world has nothing to offer you. You desire nothing, and nothing gives you happiness anymore, why continue to play?
I beat my depression on sheer willpower. When you have depression no one can help you except yourself. This is an internal battle with yourself. You have to change your prospective, your attitude towards life. That means a life time of perception erased into a new out look on life.
But the biggest difference here is that I am theist. I am not an atheist. So I know the purpose of life. I know that if I kill myself I will pay. I know that even if I were to die, I wouldn't cease to be aware. And my suffering would not end but be enhanced for my transgression. There is no freedom in death.
Yes, life is a game, but it's also an opportunity to find true freedom and true happiness. Going through depression gives you the correct perception of what life really is. A struggle hidden within delusions of happiness. Empty pursuits of happiness. Once we achieve what we desired, we came to find that that happiness that was promised isn't there. And so we continue on a new pursuit. Maybe the happiness is in the pursuit itself? For me, my faith was enough.
Surviving depression makes you a much stronger individual than many...trust me. When you lose everything. Which can happen, very easily, your entire life can be swept away by powerful winds and rain. The you that is left, has to be able to stand on his two feet, pick up what's left and continue living.
To live with and after Depression is one the most impressive feat in the world.
@Above: It's not really fair to give me all that depressing bullshit and claim you beat it on willpower to give people hope and then just say "Actually, no it's just 'cause I pretend to believe a bunch of bullshit for no reason whatsoever"
sorry, it seems really aggressive but I'm just annoyed because it stops your post from being helpful to anyone like me, and then that sort of removes the justification for the depressive rhetoric.
There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
I am not sure you read all responses on your blog, but I still want to provide some input, or a different way to look at life, or at least my view on life. I don't suffer from depression, so I will not pretend that I know how good or bad you can feel. I have felt very sad in my life at times, when someone close died, when people around me get very ill, or when people treated me or eachother crappy. But because of these experiences I also spent a lot of time thinking about what the meaning of it all is.
1) If the universe is created by an entity, it does not operate on the same empathic level as we do, or at least does not view us as important enough to care about (like we would crush an ant or a bug without empathy, we are treated similar or worse). It is hard to convince me that a sort of father figure would be watching over us, considering the horrific ways people can suffer. An individual is not the center of anything, because of that I will not place myself at the center. 2) We humans like to place us at the center of things. First the earth was all there was, nothing existed around it, then every planet and sun orbited us, but now we know, we are not the center of anything. Of course location in itself is a childish way to determine worth, but in general humans place themselves at the center of anything, like our importance is determined by being the only thing, the center of attention. It clearly does not work this way, if there is importance then a lot of things can be important at the same time. I may not be the center of anything, or worth more than the person next to me, but this does not mean I am not important at all or that I can't contribute to existence in some way. 3) The big issue when you go down this path is if you don't place yourself or life at the center of things you reach absurdity. Let's take away life from the universe, there is no observation anywhere in the universe. It would just be there, nothing watching it, nothing doing anything in it. It just is. It is just beyond at least my intellect, and I guess beyond human intellect at this point, the universe might as well not exist if there is no one in it doing something with it...That is if you try to find meaning at this point in time, with our current knowledge, you will reach absurdity. 4) Our understanding of the universe is quite a limited representation of everything that could be. I view it as a box of rules. We exist in this box of rules, are limited by it, but I find it easier to believe that this is not the only box than that this is the only box. This universe has come into existence, and we have pretty good knowledge of what it did since it came into existence, but there is also so much we don't know. We are operating on very, very limited information. Trying to reach conclusions on what the universe is, both in space, dimensions, and its limit/limitations is impossible at this point.
So ok, not so coherent maybe, and probably too much text , so
TL DR:
Considering the points above. It is best to stop asking "Why?". You are asking a question that you can't answer, not because there is no answer, but because it is certain you don't have the information available to answer the question. What you can do though is view life with some rational optimism.
You will not be the one to find the answers to life, I will not be the one to find the answers to life, we are a part of importance though, we are a step in the process, a step that needs to be there. After us there will be more people, your children, or their children, etc.. They will know more, they will be a new version of you and me, a better version of you and me, and they will get closer to the answer, or maybe find it. What looks absurd to you might not be absurd, just hard to comprehend for us in the current stage of existence, or even impossible to imagine at this point.
If you want a meaning in life, try to provide your children and their children, or all or any children with the best conditions to get more out of their lives. Try to make the planet a better place to live on, try to add to the ever growing knowledge we have, try to improve anything.
While you know for certain that we don't have the answers now, you don't know for certain we will not have the answers in the future. By not placing yourself in the center, by not making your personal happiness as important you might reach a more fulfilling life.
I hope this does not sound too fluffy, because I mean this in a practical way :/.
On October 09 2012 13:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: There is no point to life. If you ask someone "why?", over and over, until the only thing left to explain is the common reason for doing anything at all, for living, for being happy, you will be met with irrationality. No one has ever given a good reason. Motivations get reduced to feelings, not reasons. All of our reasoning begins with premises of (1) feeling a will to survive and (2) feeling a desire to be happy. Rational justification for every act begins with "Assuming you want to live and be happy..."
Could there even possibly be an answer that fits the inquiry? You might be dealing with something that's unfalsifiable. Your definition of "point" also doesn't allow for feelings or happiness, which is a great mistake in my opinion. Why do you separate rationality from feelings to that extent?
You are going to die anyway, if you think about it this way, there is no point in living. There is no point in being happy, because you are going to die anyway, so all these feelings will disappear, you will never remember this. You live for moment. It's quite depressing, but that's a rational thinking....
On October 23 2012 09:24 YaShock wrote: There is no point in being happy, because you are going to die anyway, so all these feelings will disappear, you will never remember this. You live for moment. It's quite depressing, but that's a rational thinking....
This logic fails, sorry. You operate from the assumption that only permanent things have a "point". I guess there is no point to the sun's existence since it will explode in the distant future.
The answer to the question Why? Because. Both question and answer fit each other perfectly and are both as uninteresting and unenlightening as each other.
Much more interesting questions include how? and what if?
Think of scientific progress, in trying to find the answer to a question, you often find solutions to other problems that you were not originally looking for. Finding the answer to one question also generally leads to yet more questions than the answers that were found. Many world changing discoveries were accidental.
Here is some more food for thought. There are more potential connections within a human brain than there are stars within the observable universe.
Make use of that potential, instead of repeating the same thoughts over and over, find some new ideas to explore, here is a good site to do just that.
On October 30 2012 01:00 Startyr wrote: The answer to the question Why? Because. Both question and answer fit each other perfectly and are both as uninteresting and unenlightening as each other.
Much more interesting questions include how? and what if?
Think of scientific progress, in trying to find the answer to a question, you often find solutions to other problems that you were not originally looking for. Finding the answer to one question also generally leads to yet more questions than the answers that were found. Many world changing discoveries were accidental.
Here is some more food for thought. There are more potential connections within a human brain than there are stars within the observable universe.
Make use of that potential, instead of repeating the same thoughts over and over, find some new ideas to explore, here is a good site to do just that.
I think the problem with saying that "there's no reason" is that you're implying that there is some sort of pre-determined reason as to why we are. If you're religious, you'd believe that you are here to worship and spread the word of the good lord. But I take it that you're not religious?
How I think it is is that you give life your own reason, give life your own meaning. I'm not saying that you should, but if someone sees that his purpose in life is to just bake bread, be a baker or whatever, why not?