Hey guys. I’ve been holding off on writing a blog about this for a while. It’s a topic that’s always bothered me for various reasons, but I needed time to investigate various things and solidify my opinions a bit more before talking about it. Since the subject is fresh in everyone’s minds after the section on NASL’s Pulse today (starts at ~2:00:00 http://www.twitch.tv/nasltv/b/363697714 ) I thought it would be a good time to write down my thoughts in it.
Where to start? I suppose we can begin with a comment that was made on the Pulse today.
”LoL is like Walmart and SC2 is like Whole Foods. We’re a bit stuffy...”
Now one could make an argument that this comment refers to the popularity of the two in terms of sheer viewership. The “we’re a bit stuffy” part at the end along with the context of the comment reveals the intent of the statement for what it really is though; a commentary on the quality of the games in question, not their popularity. Walmart is known for being a place to consume cheap, low quality goods while Whole Foods stores have more expensive, higher quality fare. Essentially this is saying that LoL is cheap in quality while SC2 is not. This is simply a thinly veiled insult whether that was the intent or not. A very similar comment was made awhile back that included text to the tune of “LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad.” Again, possibly (probably/politically) spun as talking about popularity, but these types of comments at their core are a commentary on quality.
“Wow Doa must be pretty butt-hurt or something about someone knocking LoL” you might think to yourself. This isn’t the case. I’m personally not bothered by it at all. What I’m bothered by is the implications of comments like this in terms of the influence that they have on esports fans individually and as a community. Making comments likes this aren't just an insult to the game. It’s an insult to the game’s players, fans, and commentators. It says that the interest and effort they put into their game isn't worthwhile. In esports we should always try our best to respect each other’s games and statements like this coming from prominent personalities in the industry do the opposite of that. It helps to cultivate a divisive, self destructive culture that we certainly don’t need in esports and frankly can’t afford in an industry so young.
During the NASL segment Frodan was actually “booed” for having casted LoL in the past. While I’m sure this was done in jest, professionals in the industry really need to be careful about the examples they set for the community. It’s not OK to boo someone for liking a game you don’t like. It’s worse do it publicly on a popular talk show. I’m calling on all the professionals in esports to make an effort to really understand their place and understand the examples that they set through their actions. I’m not saying everyone needs to be G-rated and starched and pressed, but there are certain things that simply aren’t up for debate or even conversation on these shows if we want this industry to grow in a healthy manner. Criticising people for the games they are involved in is definitely one of those things. If you’re lucky enough to be listened to by a lot of people you need to remember what Bob Denver (who played Gilligan on GIlligan’s Island) said once:
“It’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
In the end bashing a game someone likes and then mentally high-fiving yourself or a friend about it just comes off as this:
A funny thing I’ve noticed about esports fans is that for some reason it seems to be very difficult for them to acknowledge that it’s OK to like one game and not like a different one while at the same time accepting that people like the game that you don’t. It’s fine to have preferences, but that doesn’t entitle you to impose those preferences on other people. Doing this as a prominent person in one game community or the other is an abuse of power in my mind. It's certainly possible to talk about the virtues of your favorite game without condemning another. Fans should be able to make up their own minds about what they like without any sort of artificial guilt placed on them by figures they may look up to.
Mechanically there is more to do in Starcraft 2 than in LoL. This is a fact and not an opinion. Keep in mind thought that this simply means that your hands are doing more things, not your brain. There is also the common human fallacy that says more = better and less = worse. People like to apply that a lot when they talk about Starcraft and LoL. They’d like to think that doing more mechanically means you’re more talented as a videogame player. Anyone who applied that logic to other sports would be laughed at. You won’t see any LoL players switching to SC2 because they don’t feel “hardcore” enough just like you won’t see Football players switching to Hockey because Hockey players perform on ice with skates and manipulate their game object with a bent stick instead of just their body. Sounds silly, doesn’t it?
I don’t want to get into specifics with SC2 and LoL that much because of the above reasons, but I do briefly talk about the mental aspect of LoL. I think everyone on TL is pretty familiar with the multitude of things that go through a pro player’s mind during a game of SC2, but perhaps not as much from the perspective of a LoL pro player. I’d argue that they’re fairly equal, all things considered. Before you rate my blog a 1 and close the tab, let’s take a moment to examine what a Top Lane player is thinking about during the early stages of a typical pro LoL game. It would go something like the following. Don’t worry if you don’t understand all of the terminology. We’re concerned about volume here.
1) I must last-hit to gain gold 2) How do I farm and harass regarding my opponent’s abilities 3) How do I farm and harass regarding my opponent’s starting items 4) Where is my Jungler? 5) Where on the map is the enemy Jungler likely to be due to the farming and ganking path I expect him to follow? 6) Should I push my lane, freeze it, or farm under my turret? 7) Can I leave my lane to go gank another one? 8) When will a good time be to leave my lane to recall and buy items without putting pressure on my lane and thusly, my teammates because of it? 9) What items should I buy considering the state of the other players in the game and the state of my lane? 10) In what order do I level my skills based on the enemy team composition and the items they buy?
Keep in mind these things are being thought about at the same time and that the list will be very different for each of the 5 positions on the team. This list is also probably pretty incomplete (I’m no pro) and changes as the game goes on. My point in listing all that is that very few people really understand the challenge that games like LoL, Dota, HoN, etc have at the professional level. Add to that list that you’ll be doing all that while coordinating as a cohesive unit with four other people against another cohesive unit that will be playing at your level. Playing solo or with a friend or two even at a very high level is literally a different game than the game the pros play. The MOBA genre is just as challenging at the pro level as the RTS genre. The same goes for any fighting game, FPS, you name it. One's just as good as the other and decisions on what to watch are based on personal preference rather than which is the "better game".
In the end mechanics aren’t actually that important. Pro-gaming is a beautiful thing in any game and any genre. Putting mechanical difficulty first is like saying that the instrument someone plays is more important than the music that they make with it. You can’t tell me Wilhelm Kempff is a better musician than BB King because one plays the piano and the other plays the guitar. You could, however tell me that you like BB King more because you like listening to the guitar more than the piano. That difference is one that I wish everyone in esports understood and appreciated. I’m aware that some never will and we’ll have to endure their comments on reddit, casts, and shows (maybe even in this thread!) for all of eternity, but my hope is that as time goes on more and more people will get it. If you’ve gone this far at least I hope you’re bored enough to go and actually play or watch a game you like! We’re wasting our time having to deal with this issue.
I’ll appear on the next episode of The Pulse to discuss it a bit more, but after that I’m done. There’s nothing more to be said and I’ve got casts to prepare for, a HotS clan to run, business-type stuff to do, and games to enjoy myself. You've got a lot of better stuff to do to.
p.s. to Rotterdam, you will come to me for hearing about changes in the PvZ metagame in HotS, but that's a whole different conversation.
imo it's a boring game to watch and play, but people have said the same about SC2. I don't think there's anything wrong with mocking other games, but trying to tear down other people just because they are involved in a different game is stupid.
On February 04 2013 21:21 kafkaesque wrote: DoA, please come back to SC2.
Sincerely,
Everyone
I never left. Just didn't have a tournament to cast! OSL will be back with HotS after March. I'll be casting practice games from [DOa] Clan twice a week starting tomorrow too!
Nice blog DoA and I agree that there is more depth to LoL than most SC fans realize. That being said I would not take it too serious when they make jokes at NASL. I think it really is just friendly banter and simple jests at LoL and by talking about LoL on NASL.tv and interviewing Montechristo, I think they proved that they respect the scene and are all for growing e-sports together. It feels like you underestimate the community's ability to grasp jokes or overestimate the caster's influence imo. I at least know, that there will be a lot of trash talk and joking on the Pulse when I tune in and don't take everything they say 100% serious. Booing at Frodan for example, was just friends joking around in my eyes. Mabye it is me that underestimates their influence as Pros? I don't know, but I just didn't see a problem with their banter.
Well, it will be great to see you on the show next week and expect me in the DOa practice group .
Nice post DoA. unluckily the internet is filled with brain-dead people who will not understand arguments and have a healthy discussion on a topic. its all about hardcore fan-boysm. LoL vs Sc2, android vs iOS, emacs vs vi, etc etc etc... ppl just dont understand that its not about whats better, its about what YOU think fits YOU better.
Wanted to take this opportunity to congrulate you on how well you are casting together with Montecristo. OGN LoL finals was a true treat. You have learned really fast and show great synergy with your casting partner. Finally found a caster that can both understand and appreciate your nerdy jokes, haha.
" We’re wasting our time having to deal with this issue." I agree to a certain extent. In some cases it gets out of control. However people bash sports they don't like/play every day. Hell people bash teams in sports they do like to watch. this has always gone on and will happen in e-sports as well. So people don't like LoL in the DotA2/sc2 communities and express that in a rather disrespectful way, it's the same in the 'real world' as well. I don't know how many people I've talked to who bad mouth Hockey, Football, Soccer, Basketball, Baseball ect.
Fans of different games BM each other? No kidding. I don't see the point in it (other than a dick swinging contest) but it's never going to stop. It would be nice if we could all hold hands but that isn't realistic. Barmy Army for example.
Again using your idea of sports, it's used on a regular basis to compare sports and make 1 superior to the others on some level. They aren't all equal. This is a GOOD thing. The fact that they all use different techniques and skills is what makes them unique and interesting to watch. Trying to pretend all e-sports are equal is dumb, the different skills required for each one is what makes them popular to its own crowd. It's also what creates the divide.
I think one thing we can learn from the Korean scene is this, players of both scene's watch each other's games. I know that many LoL pros have played and watched starcraft (some even being pretty high level BW and sc2 players before playing League), and most sc2 progamers play LoL and watch the OGN tournament in their free time. Fun revelent fact. I know Byun and Classic from prime both play LoL quite often in their free time and enjoy the game a lot (I've seen them play while I lived in the prime house last year). I even saw classic playing League before his matches at the recent code A qualifers. I've also talked to KT coach Clide about LoL and he says that he enjoys LoL a lot.
This is standard for them and they don't have any grudges against each other. They see LoL growing big as a good thing for Esports.
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down, at least in a public enviroment.
I agree on all your initial points and while I think strong bias is ok for fans and very healthy (a game where you're emotionally invested will always be more interesting), it's completely unacceptable for professionals. I think it is the general consensus that fan opinions are just fluff and are to be treated as such. No one will stop eating apples just because someone tells him pears are superior. Professionals speak with some kind of authority however and thus should refrain from judgmental statements.
In other news I had a good chuckle when you implied LoL was as hard as Sc. We can easily resolve this however just by asking Testie. (A game being harder obviously doesn't magically make it "better" or more fun.)
I totally agree with you. Live and let live. I agree that the decisions you have to make in those MOBAs are equally as hard to make as in RTS. BUT you have to accept, that it is way harder to think about and make those decisions while you need to focus on several mechnical demanding things (f.e. the distribution of your vision between gamescreen, as simple as it sounds, is really hard to learn). The connection between the mechanical difficulties and hard decisions to be made are the reason, why RTS games are so hard to play. And because in LoL one part (mechanics) nearly completely dissipates, it's easier to play in the end. That doesn't mean there is no skill ceiling and that doesn't mean it's not a legal esport or anything like that, and I also don't want to blame anybody who plays it or works in any position in the LoL esport scene. I just want that everyone accepts those facts and accepts the other side like it is.
I tried tuning in t the recent finals, but it just didn't work out for me. LoL is a decently fun game to play imo, but it's not something I'm going to ever watch, it just doesn't really entertain me in that regard. Even with you casting. Which game is better, I don't know. Subjective, yo. Though I'm fairly certain SC2 is a more demanding game in that it puts all of the pressure on a single player instead of a team of five.
Then again, I don't watch nore play a lot of LoL so I might just be completely wrong. I feel that is the same for many of the people that talk bad about lol, they haven't actually played it themselves, or watched it, and they don't know how demanding it is.
I just have a hard time overcoming the general disgust with Riot's business and "creative" practices, that's all. Even the official game trailer and the graphics of LoL scream "cheap" and "walmarty" to me, sorry T_T. Otherwise, the same argument (about mechanics) can be made for Dota 2, and it's a valid argument. In fact, one could apply this argument when comparing SC2 and BW too - SC2 is certainly less mechanically demanding than BW. The football-hockey comparison was great, I'd add another one. Compare a bodybuilder and a long-distance runner. One is proud with muscles, and that's fine, but those muscles don't mean he can be competitive in a long-distance run. It's just different qualities that need to be developed.
When I first read that quote I thought it was a complement to LoL.
Walmart is a place that has something for everyone, while whole foods is really only enjoyed by a select few who can afford it. Therefore I thought it was saying that LoL is a game that can be enjoyed by everyone while SC2 is something that only an elite few will enjoy.
I'm sorry doa but when you have a better understanding of the overall arts/moba esports scene ill accept some kind of thought out defense of league of legends and riot games, but for me this doesn't cut it. I simply cant like the company, the people behind it, or the game.
I'll apologize if it seems rude but it seems the idea behind your post is just stating the obvious, which you did...
Of course it is a fact that LoL has an incredibly low mechanical or even personal skillcap. Even a professional LoL player: skOcelote was talking about it in an interview on the gd couch back at dreamhack summer 2012, how he was irritated with the lack of any difference in personal skill between any random good player and a great player as a result of the low personal skillcap of the game; though he'd come to the conclusion that there was enough depth in regards to teamplay that allowed teams to set themselves apart.
I imagine only a few sc2 players are actually ignorant enough to seriously hate on LoL due to its low mechanical skillcap. Those are kids that probably hate on any game that isn't sc2 or broodwar. Congrats on telling them doa, who knows maybe these kids will listen and stop hating, though i imagine that's not in their nature, look at the internet.
So I guess I'd ask what is the point of you even posting this. you seem to say: Arts/moba games require different skills than sc2 games, as such its not really applicable to try and measure skill difference between the two. So don't hate on something you don't understand.
So I guess I would respond by asking you doa that you don't mindlessly defend LoL with a weak, partial-argument without understanding the bigger picture. I get that this is aimed mostly at the immature sc2 players i mentioned above so to address them it is perhaps a compete argument. Yet all the same I cant help but react.
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
On February 04 2013 21:36 centinel4 wrote: ppl just dont understand that its not about whats better, its about what YOU think fits YOU better.
Certainly, as long as you're certain it fits you. I get the impression that a lot of ex-sc2 LoL players are lying to themselves, thinking LoL suits them better when in reality they just feel like that as a result of not feeling any pressure to perform due to the mechanical accessibility of the game compared to sc2. LoL has such a strong following because its both a casual game and an esport. Seemingly anyone can become decent over time without really trying/just playing the game(without thinking or making a more conscious effort). Yet these players also get to feel like their personal skill means something(unlike in other casual games) because LoL its an esport.
I play DotA 2, SC2 (almost exclusively HotS beta atm though), and I'm gonna start playing LoL on the request of some friends. While I really only dedicate time watching SC2, I understand the dedication towards other games and recognize that they're all fun. Honestly the LoL hatred only exists because it was a convenient scapegoat in that ridiculous part of 2012 where everyone on TL had managed to convince themselves that all the gigantic prizepools and stream viewerships was translating to "starcraft is dying".
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
I personally feel that sc2 and LoL have a very similar skillcap. Just in different areas. sc2 is more about speed, whereas LoL is more knowledge. someone can get very far in sc2 with just pure macro, in league you need to understand the game very well to do well.
Doa provided a good example of what a top laner needs to pay attention to when in the early game, but there is much more that he didn't touch on (I guess he forgot, but he pointed out the main things).
You have to also remember LoL is a team game and so you need to understand the strenghs and weakness' of your teammates just as much, if not more than your opponents. That is something sc2 players don't even have to consider. since it is a 1v1 game, you don't have to worry about anyone else.
I do feel your hate of Riot is rather unjust and I think is strife with bias, if you could point out why you don't like Riot, maybe someone could help dispell your disagreements.
On February 04 2013 22:18 figq wrote: I just have a hard time overcoming the general disgust with Riot's business and "creative" practices, that's all. Even the official game trailer and the graphics of LoL scream "cheap" and "walmarty" to me, sorry T_T. Otherwise, the same argument (about mechanics) can be made for Dota 2, and it's a valid argument. In fact, one could apply this argument when comparing SC2 and BW too - SC2 is certainly less mechanically demanding than BW. The football-hockey comparison was great, I'd add another one. Compare a bodybuilder and a long-distance runner. One is proud with muscles, and that's fine, but those muscles don't mean he can be competitive in a long-distance run. It's just different qualities that need to be developed.
Nobody is telling you to play the game. With that in mind, any bashing is simply unnecessary.
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this?
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
I personally feel that sc2 and LoL have a very similar skillcap. Just in different areas. sc2 is more about speed, whereas LoL is more knowledge. someone can get very far in sc2 with just pure macro, in league you need to understand the game very well to do well.
Doa provided a good example of what a top laner needs to pay attention to when in the early game, but there is much more that he didn't touch on (I guess he forgot, but he pointed out the main things).
You have to also remember LoL is a team game and so you need to understand the strenghs and weakness' of your teammates just as much, if not more than your opponents. That is something sc2 players don't even have to consider. since it is a 1v1 game, you don't have to worry about anyone else.
I do feel your hate of Riot is rather unjust and I think is strife with bias, if you could point out why you don't like Riot, maybe someone could help dispell your disagreements.
I think he is referring to the fact that there were rumors (??) that Riot was trying to strong arm teams and tournaments to be exclusively LoL in terms of MOBAs.
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this?
I've not heard about this. Mostly it has been rumored because one or two people have said that was the reason IEM never does dota2 or such. At least that is what I have come to understand anyways.
Riot has never barred any esports from entering the scene, unless they are direct competiters. and even then I've never really seen it happen, Dreamhack hosted all 3 during DH winter. and the team thing was mostly a rumor that Riot directly stated was wrong, or misunderstood.
IEM, IPL, Dreamhack, OGN all have multiple esports running under their brand and afaik riot has never tried to stop them. I do understand if it is in regards to hon or dota 2, because they are direct competition. I don't think Blizzard would be too keen on having dreamhack run another rts title alongside sc2. Actually Blizzard has gone out of their own way to prevent their own games being broadcasted in favour of sc2 (BW anyone?)
On February 04 2013 22:18 figq wrote: I just have a hard time overcoming the general disgust with Riot's business and "creative" practices, that's all. Even the official game trailer and the graphics of LoL scream "cheap" and "walmarty" to me, sorry T_T. Otherwise, the same argument (about mechanics) can be made for Dota 2, and it's a valid argument. In fact, one could apply this argument when comparing SC2 and BW too - SC2 is certainly less mechanically demanding than BW. The football-hockey comparison was great, I'd add another one. Compare a bodybuilder and a long-distance runner. One is proud with muscles, and that's fine, but those muscles don't mean he can be competitive in a long-distance run. It's just different qualities that need to be developed.
Nobody is telling you to play the game. With that in mind, any bashing is simply unnecessary.
We are discussing why people compare the game with Walmart. There might be some reason behind it, you know, not just random bashing, or fear of brand competition.
I can agree with your statement that from a spectator point of view, complexity of a game doesn't mean its any less or more watchable as a sport. However, you really are stretching the arguments when you try to draw false equivalencies about the skill ceiling and complexity between LoL and SC2. I mean, you can even go between other MOBAs and clearly see that LoL is just not a complex game in comparison to Dota2... let alone starcraft. Mechanical skills are definitely the main factor in this, but not nearly the only thing. Everything you mention in that list besides last hitting/harassing, those decisions are made over the course of a game or section of the game( early, mid, late). Starcraft is much much deeper than that..
The bottom line is its 5 v 5 on the same map everytime, where no changes can be made to it. Every hero has a set amount of abilities that you learn and how they interact against the other champions. That is the main aspect to the game. The complexity comes in from map awareness and setting up a team fight or playing for map dominance to gain advantages. That is complex in its own way... but those things are just a tiny aspect of what is going on in a sc2 game and only 1 person is doing this with multiple units with multiple abilities WHILE maintaining macro mechanics and watching for any other attacks that can possibly happen around the map. Item builds are not the same as a build order in sc2, its on such a different level, and the mind games strategy involved is just far deeper than getting a zhonyas versus some other AP item at a certain point in the game.
There's nothing wrong per say with LoL not having this complexity/skill ceiling, in fact this has made it incredibly popular. Most people watching esports don't have a deep understanding of the games they play or pick up on little amazing things that players do at that level, so it doesn't matter that LoL lacks a lot of this depth. Free to play game with accessibility while allowing for high level teamwork and exciting battles with lots of special abilities makes it interesting to watch for the majority. However, I'd say that the games longevity is questionable. RIOT has done an amazing job with the constant updating, subtle changes to evolve the metagame, and tireless promotion of the game as an ESPORT. But I would say that their effort and the free to play aspect has had far more an impact on its current success than the game itself. The pro players are generally younger, less professional in demeanor, more accessible in terms of personality etc, which gives them more accessibility to their fanbase. This has slowly changed with the Koreans coming in with their professional teams and infastructure and now teams like EG getting involved so hopefully it continues to grow in that respect.
SC2 is never going to have that mass appeal that a less complex, more accessible game like LoL would have. I think most of the hate is stemming from frustration that Blizzard has massively dropped the ball, and RIOT has run with it. We saw ourselves as the leader of Esports, the top dog, and that has basically evaporated in like a year.
I guess this became a little ranty and OT so I apologize, but I would say to wrap it up that you are 100% correct that professionals in the industry should not be bashing other games, or perpetuating the behavior of the fans. I agree that complexity of a game doesn't equal quality or being spectator friendly. But you should not try to solve this by creating false equivalencies on the complexity of sc2 vs LoL. I definitely agree that the sc2 fanbase doesn't appreciate the depth that LoL does have or the things the players are doing, but they probably also don't get the things that do makes sc2 actually deeper and more complex outside of "macroing".
On a sidenote, I can't wait to hear you cast Professional SC2 again, I miss Doa/Wolf GSL
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down,
Sigh, lets see. If I could search all the misinformed attacks toward dota on the LoL forums that riot devs particularly pendragon has participated in without it taking hours maybe I would. But that's fine If you don't believe me on that account since that's pretty internal to the LoL community after all.
But there's other examples, the two semi recent ones that come to mind are the time that riot tried to get multi-gaming teams to drop their other "moba"(as defined by riot) teams if they wanted to compete in riot tournaments. - They never actually went through with it as it was leaked + the majority of teams wouldn't have it.
And the other one was when riot tried to get dreamhack to not have HoN or dota2 competitions or they wouldn't attend(this was awhile ago and i cant remember the details tbh, just remember greycarn & hellspawn were talking about it) and thats only one tournament, they may be rumors but they're certainly far to widespread to not contain some truth
in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
I'm not sure what you mean by the production quality, this is a game that lacked basic e-sports features such as replays and even a spectator client for an incredibly long time, not only this but I'm pretty sure they even released a patch at one point that prevented the 3rd party program that pros were using from actually working. that the resent development of all the recent features in the game, such as being able to watch high lvl ladder games etc were mostly copied from other games, nothing wrong with that but I'd say riot was late to the party rather than early.
So I can only assume you're speaking of tournaments? I suppose that's something far to subjective to try and argue with, If you like riots tournaments that's great, though I'm sure its easy to keep a standard of quality when you have a hand in or are running every big tournament featuring your game
I personally feel that sc2 and LoL have a very similar skillcap. Just in different areas. sc2 is more about speed, whereas LoL is more knowledge. someone can get very far in sc2 with just pure macro, in league you need to understand the game very well to do well.
I disagree but you cant compare them, they're too different. I certainly wouldn't list knowledge as a big part of LoL as the developers consider "burden of knowledge" to be "anti-fun" and try to minimize it as much as possible in the game. LoL has depth in regards to knowledge compared to sc2 sure but not compared to other games in its genre.
Doa provided a good example of what a top laner needs to pay attention to when in the early game, but there is much more that he didn't touch on (I guess he forgot, but he pointed out the main things).
You have to also remember LoL is a team game and so you need to understand the strenghs and weakness' of your teammates just as much, if not more than your opponents. That is something sc2 players don't even have to consider. since it is a 1v1 game, you don't have to worry about anyone else. absolutely
I do feel your hate of Riot is rather unjust and I think is strife with bias, if you could point out why you don't like Riot, maybe someone could help dispell your disagreements. Your right I guess I am biased, as are you. people are subjective they have opinions, shocking really...
It would take to long to list absolutely everything that's made me dislike the company so ill respond to some of what you've said above.
-
Its very late/early here so i'm not gonna spend an hour writing a well researched post, because I don't care to, If you care to you can probably find plenty of in depth criticisms of riot & LoL. Take initiative if you care, as of now it seems like nothign i say will really convince you
& no offense but tbh to me you're just another one of 30 million eating riots propaganda shit. If you like how it tastes go for it. Just know who you're supporting.
Wilhelm Kempff is a better musician than BB King regardless of whether you like guitar or piano though. And BW is a better game than SC2 regardless which one you like best, I think. Some things you can compare.
On February 04 2013 23:46 Irre wrote: I can agree with your statement that from a spectator point of view, complexity of a game doesn't mean its any less or more watchable as a sport. However, you really are stretching the arguments when you try to draw false equivalencies about the skill ceiling and complexity between LoL and SC2. I mean, you can even go between other MOBAs and clearly see that LoL is just not a complex game in comparison to Dota2... let alone starcraft. Mechanical skills are definitely the main factor in this, but not nearly the only thing. Everything you mention in that list besides last hitting/harassing, those decisions are made over the course of a game or section of the game( early, mid, late). Starcraft is much much deeper than that..
[...]
I guess this became a little ranty and OT so I apologize, but I would say to wrap it up that you are 100% correct that professionals in the industry should not be bashing other games, or perpetuating the behavior of the fans. I agree that complexity of a game doesn't equal quality or being spectator friendly. But you should not try to solve this by creating false equivalencies on the complexity of sc2 vs LoL. I definitely agree that the sc2 fanbase doesn't appreciate the depth that LoL does have or the things the players are doing, but they probably also don't get the things that do makes sc2 actually deeper and more complex outside of "macroing".
On a sidenote, I can't wait to hear you cast Professional SC2 again, I miss Doa/Wolf GSL
I agree with you 100 %. And even though I don't support any kind of open game-bashing, especially on something like The Pulse, or the caster-bashing that goes on each time someone gives LoL a shot, I can't help but feel that the whole LoL-Walmart thing is... well... kind of true!
I think that people should be comparing League and DOTA2 instead of League and Starcraft. Starcraft and League are two different games for two different people. League is a team based game and some people like that more than a 1v1 game, which is fine. I've played DotA for around 8 years now (ever since 2005) and one thing I've learned from it is that it's a lot easier to blame your team mates than to take accountability for your faults, like in SC2.
SC2, if you mess up you know it's your fault. Whether it's a micro problem, scouting problem, macro problem, ect, it's on you to fix it. SC2 and League also has different skill sets needed. As you said DoA, last hitting in league is a very important skill.
But League vs DOTA would be better overall, that is where I would say the wal-mart (League) vs whole foods (DOTA) comparision comes in the most.
If you want to compare SC2 to League, it's best to compare the two tournament scenes instead of the actual game. Tournaments such as MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, ect they PAY blizzard to host SC2 events. Riot's esport scene is fully dependent on Riot itself. If Blizzard decided to stop supporting eSports, tournaments would still exist while if Riot stopped they're whole scene collapses. Riot pays their pros, they pay tournament organizers to have their game, ect.
Starcraft, counter-strike, quake, DotA; those are all natural eSports. Games that the community decided were worthy to have has a competitive game and that the community would put money into.
League of legends (and planetside 2 to a certain extent oddly enough) are Artificial eSports that rely 100% on the company to keep going.
edit: I myself love esports and believe that there should be several eSport titles. RTS (SC2), ARTS (DotA2), FPS (CS/Quake). I support eSports and I love it a lot, but I refuse to support an artificial eSport title such as League of Legends when you have a much better product on the market (DotA / DOTA2).
On February 05 2013 00:05 nomyx wrote: I think that people should be comparing League and DOTA2 instead of League and Starcraft. Starcraft and League are two different games for two different people. League is a team based game and some people like that more than a 1v1 game, which is fine. I've played DotA for around 8 years now (ever since 2005) and one thing I've learned from it is that it's a lot easier to blame your team mates than to take accountability for your faults, like in SC2.
SC2, if you mess up you know it's your fault. Whether it's a micro problem, scouting problem, macro problem, ect, it's on you to fix it. SC2 and League also has different skill sets needed. As you said DoA, last hitting in league is a very important skill.
But League vs DOTA would be better overall, that is where I would say the wal-mart (League) vs whole foods (DOTA) comparision comes in the most.
If you want to compare SC2 to League, it's best to compare the two tournament scenes instead of the actual game. Tournaments such as MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, ect they PAY blizzard to host SC2 events. Riot's esport scene is fully dependent on Riot itself. If Blizzard decided to stop supporting eSports, tournaments would still exist while if Riot stopped they're whole scene collapses. Riot pays their pros, they pay tournament organizers to have their game, ect.
Starcraft, counter-strike, quake, DotA; those are all natural eSports. Games that the community decided were worthy to have has a competitive game and that the community would put money into.
League of legends (and planetside 2 to a certain extent oddly enough) are Artificial eSports that rely 100% on the company to keep going.
Although you are right in saying that Riot heavily supports their game (which is good) to argue that if Riot stopped giving money to organizers they wouldn't put League in their competitions and that the scene would die is a bit ridiculous. At the end of the day, League of Legends is arguably the most popular game in the world right now. People play it more than any other eSport and more people tune in to watch it than any other eSport.
If anything Blizzard should be more like Riot and help sustain and foster the growth of the scene. Also, Valve has been more Riot-esque than Blizzard-esque in their support of DOTA2. 1 million dollar prize anyone?
What a dumb,patronizing and meaningless blog. If the fans want to hate some other game let them do it,you're not the messiah that's going to bring them together DoA. The most annoying thing about this whole game vs game thing is you preachers that try to make people hold hands and play nice when people are obviously having a better time flaming each other and please don't come with that "for the good of esports" bullshit. Stacraft and Dota fans love to hate on LoL because they think it's a noob game and no amount of blogs will change their opinion so just please do your self a favor and stop it.
I have to disagree with the approach DoA is taking when he's trying to legitimize LoL as an esport. Making a list like that or just generally saying that the level of individual skill required to play a moba is parallel to the skill required to play starcraft is in my opinion bullshit. Mobas are all about teamwork, and that is by far the hardest part about them, knowing how to work as a team of five. Once you get good, you stay good and there's really no point playing pubs cause they won't better your mechanics or map awareness or basic decision making, those things just aren't that hard to be good at (read: not comparable to star2 pros). The only things the pros really need to practice anymore is teamwork and strategy, and I wish those two things were what people would sell when they sell LoL as an esport. In starcraft 2, where there's literally no teamwork, you still need to play a ridiculous amount just to keep up with the individual skill.
edit for clairvoyance: the point I'm trying to make is that people shouldn't say "player X of team Y is just as impressive as this starcraft pro", but instead they could say that the overall skill and effort of team Y is just as impressive as this individual star2 player's is.
It is only natural for games to rival each other, though you are absolutely right about the fine line that shouldnt be crossed. Would it be too hard to simply be an "E-Sports-Community" as much as we are SCII-Community? :D
Esports media should focus more on creating storylines that transcend individual games. I have zero knowledge of MOBA games, yet I was super hyped to watch Liquid vs EG in Dota 2. I feel like I know Liquid and EG as teams and as such I enjoy their rivalry regardless of it being an unfamiliar game.
The emphasis should be more on teams as a whole, giving them a face that carries over across different platforms.
SC2 and LoL require different skills, there is some overlap, such as map awareness, apm, mind games, but overall the two need different skills. I've been saying this for a while, but there is no reason to hate on LoL, its a different game. It has a different type of complexity, and though the community as a whole can be argued as less mature than TL's (along with the general SC2 community), that isn't grounds to bash another communities game.
I'm sure LoL is a great game, and you make a lot of compelling points for it. And the LoL community is welcome to do whatever it is they want to do. Alas I will never be a part of it, and I'm not too concerned.
I've tried to watch LoL on several occasions. Not a single time have I been able to glean any enjoyment from it. It has nothing to do with gameplay, casters, or players. It has to do with the graphics. I find the graphics have this uniformed treatment that make it almost impossible to tell areas importance or interest from parts of the game I shouldn't care about. Every spell seems like the most important and the lack of any sort of texture on game models is, to me, aesthitically very ugly.
The artistic treatment of dota models is much more pleasing and logical to me. It gives the game a better viewability and makes the gameplay more logical. Spells and units have priority. In LoL I don't feel that. That's the part of the game that drives me away from it.
On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote: We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down
If only Riot took this approach...
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this?
I've not heard about this. Mostly it has been rumored because one or two people have said that was the reason IEM never does dota2 or such. At least that is what I have come to understand anyways.
Riot has never barred any esports from entering the scene, unless they are direct competiters. and even then I've never really seen it happen, Dreamhack hosted all 3 during DH winter. and the team thing was mostly a rumor that Riot directly stated was wrong, or misunderstood.
IEM, IPL, Dreamhack, OGN all have multiple esports running under their brand and afaik riot has never tried to stop them. I do understand if it is in regards to hon or dota 2, because they are direct competition. I don't think Blizzard would be too keen on having dreamhack run another rts title alongside sc2. Actually Blizzard has gone out of their own way to prevent their own games being broadcasted in favour of sc2 (BW anyone?)
Yeah and that Riot was pushing for teams to not pick up rosters for other moba teams is just a rumor too right? Sigh. It's established, promise.
You know, I don't really want any part of this discussion to begin with. Blog is not going to add anything that hasn't said anything before, this crossgame-grief isn't going anywhere. Hell, it's not like it's new, Unreal Tournament vs Quake, or Counterstrike vs Quake, age old story. Just pretend I didn't say anything.
I don't know... I guess I just don't see the problem with acting like your game (profession) is better. I've heard professional sports commentators talk about how some sport is better or a player from another sport wouldn't be able to handle something of this sport etc (although not much). As far as communities, that definitely happens in traditional sports! (How many people referred to the Super Bowl as the hand-egg championship?)
I also don't think we (community or players) should need to support other communities. I don't care about the console games (fighting, sports, fps?) or other pc games (fps, moab, or even other RTS games), just SC2. **I do understand members of a pro team that has multiple competition types supporting each other - the same way you'll see professional athletes attending other events in their city.**
On February 05 2013 00:16 xSTaRFiSHx wrote: It is only natural for games to rival each other, though you are absolutely right about the fine line that shouldnt be crossed. Would it be too hard to simply be an "E-Sports-Community" as much as we are SCII-Community? :D
To the outside, we are the ESPORTS community. That's where the two should be aligned and supportive.
Internally, there's subcommunities and that's where there's bickering, because there's a perceived limited amount of resources and some jealousy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that internal bickering, until it impacts external perceptions (which it probably doesn't.)
If CoD8: MWBLOPS7x becomes the next huge thing, I have no doubt that LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that just as DotA2 and SC2 fans currently come together against LoL. And if an external force such as politicians start saying CoD8: MWBLOPS7x is too violent, then CoD8: MWBLOPS7x, DotA2, LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that.
That's why I think the forced hand holding is stupid. It all depends on the framing and at the individual game level, conflict and rivalry is natural, just as in a family. There's a line you shouldn't cross like upsetting casters/players (because you shouldn't be trying to upset anyone) but people bickering online can be a sign of health. In the case of LoL and SC2, they might be different enough that it's easy to accept both (although again, there's the limited resources thing,) but it seems clear that DotA2 and LoL are in direct competition and it's only natural to want your preferred game to win and the other to lose.
We can appreciate Wilhelm Kempff and BB King as different entities, but if they're touring the same cities at the same time and BB King played the biggest venues and gets the best record contracts, and Wilhelm Kempff was forced to play dueling pianos for tips at a bar, obviously Kempff (or his corpse) and his fans would not be favorable to that arrangement. It's easy for King, having the better arrangement, to say, "we should get along."
I wonder how many people ( that don't work in the industry ) care about " esports", I figure most people just like their game that they play/watch and don't care about anything else that goes on. I don't think trying to throw all competitive video games together, expecting people to be tolerant and respectful of everything because " esports " is going to work. Myself I don't care much about anything other than starcraft, I tried watching LoL and I watched LG-IM win the recent IEM because I like them in sc2 but I didn't enjoy it enough to have it be something I will do again unless I'm really bored.
Doa I know you're in an awkward position because you used to be full time sc2, then moved to doing both, then moved to doing full time LoL ( until osl ) but I don't think this post accomplishes much, let people support what they want to support and vocally dislike what they dislike.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree, as someone who was heavily bashing lol before I gave it a fair chance, I really do see both sides of the argument. In fact just as I switched over to playing LoL and really cut down on SC2 I noticed DoA was casting LoL for OGN and this was nice, ( thx DoA). Back to the point, the fact is that yes SC2 is arguably a more mechanically demanding game, LoL is very demanding in other aspects and it is also a team game, which makes for some very interesting dynamics and arguably more difficult decisions to make. In SC2 you only have to worry about one brain on the other side, in LoL there are 5 so while there is less to do mechanically there is more to think about in terms of what your opponent is doing or is going to do. Also 5v5 team fights are incredibly mentally demanding, there is more going on than the average brain can compute at one time and thus you see true brilliance come out in these moments. But the main point i want to make is that while you can argue which game is harder or more fun or whatever you like, LoL is doing things for eSports that SC2 only dreamed of and for that i think all fans of eSports, be is Broodwar or Pokemon or anything in between, should give LoL a little more respect and a little less judgement. And conversely Sc2 did things for eSports that were before unseen so LoL fans should give a little respect to the games that paved the way. They are both great games and I am thankful that I live in a time when I have access to such entertainment as a player and as a viewer.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense and teamwork, agree to disagree I suppose.
Thanks for the blog, Doa. I think you just said out loud what a lot of us have been thinking for quite some time now. LoL is a more popular game than sc2 and I believe this is the reason why this community acts so childish. It's out of jealousy. And there is something I can understand in this: sc2 is, imo, a much better competitive game, therefore it feels unfair that LoL is more popular.
BUT hating on LoL is really a bad answer. When watching Iron Squid 2 Finals, I saw a guy with a big "sc2 > lol" sign in the crowd, and I was like "Why the hell would you do that?" Why be so negative? Is it really the most important thing to write on a sign? Instead of cheering for your favourite player, or even simply shout your love for the game without shitting on another one.
It makes the sc2 community look bad when you guys hate on LoL, we may have the better game, but it doesn't mean we should be hating on other ones.
PS: remember that lol is F2P, and that explains the massive playerbase, maybe tryin to get Blizzard to switch fo a F2P business model would be a better course of action than hating on LoL.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS. And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
What do you mean by "refine"? LoL did nothing but copy WC3 DotA and remove all the "anti-fun" when it comes down to mechanisms, plus to be honest that mechanisms is what makes DotA so unique. But hey, that's what LoL developers teach their community right? Let's not forget how unbalanced and burden of knowledge Invoker is! I wonder when will LoL have a proper replay system for teams to analyze their own matches...
On February 04 2013 21:13 DoA wrote: You won’t see any LoL players switching to SC2 because they don’t feel “hardcore” enough just like you won’t see Football players switching to Hockey because Hockey players perform on ice with skates and manipulate their game object with a bent stick instead of just their body. Sounds silly, doesn’t it?
So why do you see people from DotA switching to SC2 and viceversa (BabyKnight, dSeleCT, iceiceice) and not LoL to SC2? Finally but not least, supporting LoL doesn't mean you are supporting eSports or helping other games in eSports.
Either way, hopefully you will cast DotA again this year... right DoA? + Show Spoiler +
On February 04 2013 21:21 kafkaesque wrote: DoA, please come back to SC2.
Sincerely,
Everyone
I never left. Just didn't have a tournament to cast! OSL will be back with HotS after March. I'll be casting practice games from [DOa] Clan twice a week starting tomorrow too!
That's awesome, I thought you deserted us.
I really like your casting; if you'd still do Proleague, like you did once or twice, I don't think I'd ever miss a match.
€: Pardon the off-topic, the debate is so tedious that I elected to ignore it.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
Edit:
On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense, agree to disagree I suppose.
Your post doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you understood what I wrote.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
Edit:
On February 05 2013 01:50 spinesheath wrote:
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
Guess we just have different opinions on the importance of mechanics vs game sense, agree to disagree I suppose.
Your post doesn't make sense to me. I don't think you understood what I wrote.
End of the day we have different opinions, we aren't going to change each other's mind, not worth arguing. Sorry if I was confused or didn't make my point clear.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
And everyone was calling first person shooters "Doom-clones" until they just became first person shooters. Someone has to event a genre, other people are allowed to refine it. Starcraft wasn't the first RTS.
It's refined in the sense that it's easier for casual players. That's great. I never spoke about that however, so get your straw man arguments out of here.
And the second part simply isn't true, there's a reason skill gap exists between casual players and pro-players.
Of course it does. But it also does in bowling. My argument is that once you remove all the nearly-capped skills in LoL, it comes down to just a few things. Much less than in say, Quake. Lack of mechanical skill is a large, glaring part of that you couldn't ever deny, so I'm not sure how you can even argue this.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
I too don't find it impressive if one is the best chess player in the world.
Except the chess player thinks the knowledge through due to the incredibly high variation, so that's not pure knowledge. If you want to compare LoL's knowledge to chess, compare it to the first moves. And I fully agree, the first moves in chess aren't very skillful really.
Wow, your "arguments" are just thinly veiled insults, pure opinion or blatant lies, Im not going to even give your post a point by point bashing because it would be a waste of my time as you obviously aren't going to change your opinion. In fact i don't even know why I am responding as you clearly have no real idea of the truth and no real desire to find it.
A note; you are welcome to your opinion but don't tell me I am stupid unskilled hypocrite for disagreeing with you, which you did in your post if you are wondering.
Edit I am sorry I even visited this thread most of these posts are just one person bashing a game they don't like and I almost got sucked in because of this joker son1dow. GLHF LONG LIVE ESPORTS!
I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
I see this community trying to take pot shots at LoL at the time. It's common ground in these parts and it doesn't bother me either. I definitely share your sentiments on pro gaming and unfortunately you will always have those clowns. If this blog gets to maybe 1 or 2 people. I'd say you've done your job.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
I made an account just to rant after seeing this post, just a bit about myself. I've played DotA + DotA2 for 10 years now, I've hit 2.2k elo in LoL, I've been Masters since season 2 and Diamond in season 1. I've watched all 3 games on a competitive level for quite some time as well.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
What is riot's strategy? Making it such that progamers have an actual salary? So the non-MC/MVP/Nestea/Stephanos/Non-eg can live conformable without having to pull rabbits out of their asses on their streams 24/7?
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
Easy is a term thrown around a lot with LoL. Yes it's easy at first. You buy items and take the enemy base. So is starcraft at first, you gather minerals and make marines/lings/lots and attack the enemy. It's the higher up game-play that matters.
Regarding the "so few skills part", have you ever thought about the difference of LoL vs DotA2 skills? Mana is less of an issue in LoL so you can spam more. At the same time, some DotA2 skills are STUPIDLY GAME-ENDING/BROKEN. 1-6 Enig got ult on 4 ppl? GG. 1-10 MagSven combo? GG. Enemy has a BF/Manta AM? GG splitpush.
Same 15-20 champion pool is picked at the highest level. Sometimes you get to see a Dendi Pudge, but it gets boring see a Lina/Rubick/AM/Mag/Luna/TS/SK/etc every single game.
Tl;dr, DotA2 champion skills win the game, LoL map objectives and gold win the game.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
Yes Banelines > Marines too, o wait. What you learn going up the elo is that you learn to play b so well that your b beats their a and stomps their c. It's not rock paper scissors here. Or else the game would be decided at champion select and everyone would go select another set of champions in the next game instead of wasting 40-60 minutes.
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
Delegitimizes? Seems like the amount of people lol's drawn in is beating the NHL, but idk. If we are talking about difficulty here, then ESPN would have 24/7 coverage on .... boxing. But that's not the case is it. It's about popularity, simple as that. Think about football. Randy Moss runs really fast and catches the ball. Ray Rice puts his head down and runs downfield. In your words, that would be League. Simple, popular, and money is thrown at it. So yes, people want to see football over boxing.
TL;DR: League isn't as easy as you think, when you hit Diamond Elo come say that. People want to watch football over boxing. etc.
On February 05 2013 02:39 StarStruck wrote: I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
Finding a propoer analogy is like... well like... you know...
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
On February 05 2013 02:39 StarStruck wrote: I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
Finding a propoer analogy is like... well like... you know...
ROLF you win the thread, thanks for making me laugh after having all faith in humanity stripped by a few sentences from some ignoramuses.
On February 05 2013 02:39 StarStruck wrote: I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
Finding a propoer analogy is like... well like... you know...
ROLF you win the thread, thanks for making me laugh after having all faith in humanity stripped by a few sentences from some ignoramuses.
On February 05 2013 02:39 StarStruck wrote: I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
Finding a propoer analogy is like... well like... you know...
ROLF you win the thread, thanks for making me laugh after having all faith in humanity stripped by a few sentences from some ignoramuses.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
On February 05 2013 02:39 StarStruck wrote: I don't like your analogy of LoL is like American Idol and SC2 is like Breaking Bad. I get what you're trying to say DoA, but keep in mind one is a reality show on network television whereas the other is a HBO drama. In context, network versus cable/specialty channels is a good comparison but when you mix two different genres. I think you can do better.
Finding a propoer analogy is like... well like... you know...
ROLF you win the thread, thanks for making me laugh after having all faith in humanity stripped by a few sentences from some ignoramuses.
This guy thinks he's smart.
You're just upset because you are an ignoramus.
I don't care what people think of me over the internet. Anyone who thinks they're smart aren't. We all do stupid nonsensical things in life and anyone who would tell you differently is a liar. With that said, he wants to try to call me out so he's fair game in my book.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You should really just not talk at all.
You must clearly be top 5 diamond to be able to throw out such bold statements(hint you arent, and like i said earlier shouldn't talk)
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
What exactly do they admit, according to you, in this interview?
This?
Weeks ago, GameSpot was given information from a number of sources that said at PAX, professional team organizations were told about exclusivity agreements with other Action RTS/MOBA games, such as DOTA 2. Organizations with League of Legends teams would not be allowed to pick up DOTA 2 teams, and organizations with DOTA 2 squads could not utilize League of Legends teams. A few days after PAX, after some community uproar, Riot stated this was not the case and organizations are able to do as they like regarding other games. Was this going to be the original policy heading into Season 3? When was the decision made to change this policy, and why the change?
This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Or maybe this?
Are there exclusivity agreements set in place with different organizations regarding not running concurrent DOTA/MOBA titles at the same time? Do you see this as basic business?
Anybody could strike a deal with a league that includes a period of exclusivity. This is great for the leagues because it means they’re in high demand. And why wouldn’t they be? MLG, ESL, and IPL put on great events. Of course we want League of Legends to be in the spotlight at these events. Part of the rationale for these kinds of contracts is that it gives us the ability to have a greater influence on the spectator experience to better meet fan expectations.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves.
And I totally agree with the below post
On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote: It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft.
Well.... to be honest i don't see any problem with this. Imagine an ideal world where everyone was objective and open to everything. Boring . Just as in real sports people are going to like their sport more than another sport and speak their mind about it.
On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote: I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
The reason I think I can is because I'm assuming a basic level of knowledge. Go look into what Riot tried to do with teams only having LoL players. Now, think what they're going to do if they get the power to do so. You can also look into what CGS did to esports with the growing lol. And please, don't make sarcastic comments if you're not knowledgeable about the subject.
MrF:
Wow, your "arguments" are just thinly veiled insults, pure opinion or blatant lies, Im not going to even give your post a point by point bashing because it would be a waste of my time as you obviously aren't going to change your opinion. In fact i don't even know why I am responding as you clearly have no real idea of the truth and no real desire to find it.
A note; you are welcome to your opinion but don't tell me I am stupid unskilled hypocrite for disagreeing with you, which you did in your post if you are wondering.
Edit I am sorry I even visited this thread most of these posts are just one person bashing a game they don't like and I almost got sucked in because of this joker son1dow. GLHF LONG LIVE ESPORTS!
) Either re-read what I said or stop trolling, I only see insults based on straw-man presumptions. Except for the hypocrite part, you are a hypocrite if you know Riot's history and still continue preaching their incredible benefit to esports.
Hoodcash:
What is riot's strategy? Making it such that progamers have an actual salary? So the non-MC/MVP/Nestea/Stephanos/Non-eg can live conformable without having to pull rabbits out of their asses on their streams 24/7?
Read what I wrote to SolidMustard.
Easy is a term thrown around a lot with LoL. Yes it's easy at first. You buy items and take the enemy base. So is starcraft at first, you gather minerals and make marines/lings/lots and attack the enemy. It's the higher up game-play that matters.
Regarding the "so few skills part", have you ever thought about the difference of LoL vs DotA2 skills? Mana is less of an issue in LoL so you can spam more. At the same time, some DotA2 skills are STUPIDLY GAME-ENDING/BROKEN. 1-6 Enig got ult on 4 ppl? GG. 1-10 MagSven combo? GG. Enemy has a BF/Manta AM? GG splitpush.
Same 15-20 champion pool is picked at the highest level. Sometimes you get to see a Dendi Pudge, but it gets boring see a Lina/Rubick/AM/Mag/Luna/TS/SK/etc every single game.
Tl;dr, DotA2 champion skills win the game, LoL map objectives and gold win the game.
I don't like Dota for competitive play too so this doesn't matter much, but I disagree with you because the knowledge/experience/game sense required to handle that gamebreaking stuff in Dota is such a large part of the game... It remains even more flat as game if you remove that.
Yes Banelines > Marines too, o wait. What you learn going up the elo is that you learn to play b so well that your b beats their a and stomps their c. It's not rock paper scissors here. Or else the game would be decided at champion select and everyone would go select another set of champions in the next game instead of wasting 40-60 minutes.
I'm just saying the game creates such encounters and situations. I don't think they're good for competitive gameplay. Didn't say they were everything in LoL.
Delegitimizes? Seems like the amount of people lol's drawn in is beating the NHL, but idk. If we are talking about difficulty here, then ESPN would have 24/7 coverage on .... boxing. But that's not the case is it. It's about popularity, simple as that. Think about football. Randy Moss runs really fast and catches the ball. Ray Rice puts his head down and runs downfield. In your words, that would be League. Simple, popular, and money is thrown at it. So yes, people want to see football over boxing.
I'm not going to compare boxing to American football lol. My comparison with bowling and football (soccer, I don't know american football) was about skill. Not popularity. In fact, I specifically excluded it.
League isn't as easy as you think, when you hit Diamond Elo come say that. People want to watch football over boxing. etc.
There are people in the Quake community who beat professionals solomid in League with 6 months of play or so. It is easy compared to some other games.
Edit: For the people arguing about the team exclusivity controversy... Find the Live on Three episodes on that, for example. And the GD Show episodes. Can't bothered to find them, but no, it wasn't a misshap. Riot wanted to do this, then lied once they were told this was a stupid idea. Who is to say they can't do it once they're powerful enough.
Edit no2: In terms of who you can trust, I seem to believe Wheat, SirScoots and Slasher on this. Not because I always agree with them, but I've never had reason to doubt their facts. I think the dignitas guy from The GD Studio confimed it too.
On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote: I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves.
And I totally agree with the below post
On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote: It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft.
Just for future reference there is a legtimate reason(s) for dota players like myself to dislike LoL, also ur probably gonna get a ban.
why the hell would he get a ban? For saying dota is no better than lol? lmfao, no he won't (and if he does, well, this would mean TL is seriously going the wrong direction)
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
The reason I think I can is because I'm assuming a basic level of knowledge. Go look into what Riot tried to do with teams only having LoL players. Now, think what they're going to do if they get the power to do so. You can also look into what CGS did to esports with the growing lol. And please, don't make sarcastic comments if you're not knowledgeable about the subject.
well, read the article linked by that guy who thought he was going to prove your point. The poor guy didn't actually read it and the artice proves you wrong. Riot is doing great for eSports, you have no point.
On February 05 2013 02:20 Disposition1989 wrote: The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree with the first two sentences of this. However, I highly recommend you get your friends to give it another try and use mobafire guides or similar. The learning curve for LoL is incredibly easy. That's not a bad thing. At all. In fact, it's what Blizzard was trying to do: Easy to learn, difficult to master. SC2 has a much MUCH harder learning curve (though HoTS is trying to improve that). Just don't worry about jungling (or be the jungler yourself. Though it might be better to lane with your buddies) and the matchmaking system will do the rest. I came into LoL a complete noob and am now one of the better players among my friends.
On February 05 2013 03:21 LastDance wrote: I hate Dota and I hate LOL. But what I hate most is seeing Dota players shit on LOL all the time. even in this thread I can see it happening over and over. Seriously kids, Dota is no better than LOL. Get over yourselves.
And I totally agree with the below post
On February 05 2013 02:38 murphs wrote: It's totally ok to like SC2 and not care about other esports.
It feels like some people are trying to force feed LoL to people who just want to watch some fucking starcraft.
Fuck esports, I love starcraft and only starcraft.
Just for future reference there is a legtimate reason(s) for dota players like myself to dislike LoL, also ur probably gonna get a ban.
why the hell would he get a ban? For saying dota is no better than lol? lmfao, no he won't (and if he does, well, this would mean TL is seriously going the wrong direction)
On February 05 2013 02:20 Disposition1989 wrote: The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree with the first two sentences of this. However, I highly recommend you get your friends to give it another try and use mobafire guides or similar. The learning curve for LoL is incredibly easy. That's not a bad thing. At all. In fact, it's what Blizzard was trying to do: Easy to learn, difficult to master. SC2 has a much MUCH harder learning curve (though HoTS is trying to improve that). Just don't worry about jungling (or be the jungler yourself. Though it might be better to lane with your buddies) and the matchmaking system will do the rest. I came into LoL a complete noob and am now one of the better players among my friends.
Do NOT use mobafire. Most of the builds there are outdated and/or simply terrible.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy".
At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy".
At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
Even if that was the case, I fail to see what would be the problem, though, all sports are ran like businesses (because guess what? they are) so I don't see why it should be any different in esports.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy".
At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
Even if that was the case, I fail to see what would be the problem, though, all sports are ran like businesses (because guess what? they are) so I don't see why it should be any different in esports.
So you are basically supporting what CGS did back in the day? And honestly... that went wonderful right?
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
Or he is referring to the part where Riot banned some players from competitive play after they were reported in the top 3% of toxic players, a ban that in my opinion was fully justified as I've played with some of them.
tl;dr, dota2 elitist whose my way or the highway prolly leads to raging in game as well with his narrow outlook in life. Nothing to see here
Creates a "throwaway" count on TL making it sound like he's is on reddit. Comes here saying he played DotA for 10 years and all their heroes are unbalanced and shit. Praising Riot saying the rumors are false when their own VP of eSportsconfirmed it... and you wanna people to take you seriously? Grow up son! Next time don't talk shit without even knowing what you saying.
Quoting from your link: This rumor was the result of some miscommunication to a few teams. It was never policy. We require the specific team rosters--you know, the actual pro League players on each team--to commit to the Championship Series if they wish to participate, but not the team brands.
Exactly my point. According to Scoots, Rileno and others, Riot intended to do it but when the shitstorm ends "it was never policy".
At the end of the day you believe in what you believe. And knowing Riot and what they have done in the past AND ALSO adding the old VP of CGS to Riot I have absolutely no doubts they tried it...
So, you were first saying that the VP confirmed it, who didn't, as you can read in the interview; and you also acknowledged just now. So, your point is invalid and has no base. You know nothing about Riot, as you just proved, so please, stop with these "what they have done in the past" bullshit.
I have no problem about LoL and MOBAs, nor do I know anything about those games. However I personally found it annoying that more and more sc2 personalities/organisations are trying to shove those games down my throat.
I agree that there's no need to hate on other games that you have no interest in, but on the other hand the scene also needs to realize that not everyone can enjoy both games at once.
I think I'm not alone when I say that I like to be selective about the information/news I receive on a daily basis. When the twitter account I made specifically to follow sc2 feeds are getting increasingly full of LoL/DOTA news then I think as a consumer and as a fan I have the right to be annoyed.
I also think that shows need to label/position themselves more clearly on where they stand. When I tune in to SOTG, ITG then I expect mainly sc2 contents, whereas when I tune in to LO3 then I expect mixed contents. In this regard, The Pulse seems to be a bit confused on where they stand.
one, you can't compare sc2 and LoL they just are not the same type of game, the x is better than y argument is invalid because of this.
two, I don't play LoL or even understand what is going on if I watch it, but it hard to knock it when people are quitting Sc2 for LoL, I have yet to hear anyone going the other way around. The numbers/viewers they get is amazing. I think after HoTs comes out Sc2 will get a bounce in viewers but LoL keeps getting bigger and bigger, clearly they are doing something right.
Seeing this hostility towards League made it easy for me to switch from me playing both games to exclusively lol. Everybody complains that the LOL community is terrible and it isn't. Sure game to game is more difficult, because your in a stressful situation with 9 other people, of which 4 depend on you for their success. This leads to some games getting a little out of hand, but it also has this whole other dimension of communication being probably the top skill in the game, something that you do not even need to be a starcraft player. The games require very different skillsets, yet SC2 players are still dicks towards LOL. I enjoyed playing and watching SC2 for the first year after it came out and still watch a bit of GSl here and then, but the dicks drove me to a game thats is much more enjoyable with friends (you can acutally play and compete with them), is more enjoyable to watch (co-ordinated plays and strategies with multiple people invovled are more exciting for me) and for me is the better game. I still respect SC2 a lot, but if your a dick and hate of league and its players, you have deserve no respect. Thanks for this post DOA.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
I think this statement is made time and time again - but I don't see why you can't state it once more. Some parts were a bit too much of a stupidity check and almost felt immature, but as I said - you as an eSports profile made a positive statement about the possibility of united growth of eSports without actually having to like every part of it.
On February 05 2013 02:20 Disposition1989 wrote: The worst of it (imo) is a lot of the bashing on LoL comes from people who haven't even played the game seriously. I tried to get a few of my friends into it (sc2's multiplayer is awful) but they got smashed so hard in their first couple games they refuse to even try again (insane learning curve). And that sucks because they have absolutely no idea what fun it is to set up the big plays and work as a team to destroy the other. And that's what I mean by playing league seriously; not just tuning into a stream this one time or getting six infinity edges in a bot game and going 20-0. There is so much more you gotta learn and understand for it to be fun.
I agree with the first two sentences of this. However, I highly recommend you get your friends to give it another try and use mobafire guides or similar. The learning curve for LoL is incredibly easy. That's not a bad thing. At all. In fact, it's what Blizzard was trying to do: Easy to learn, difficult to master. SC2 has a much MUCH harder learning curve (though HoTS is trying to improve that). Just don't worry about jungling (or be the jungler yourself. Though it might be better to lane with your buddies) and the matchmaking system will do the rest. I came into LoL a complete noob and am now one of the better players among my friends.
Do NOT use mobafire. Most of the builds there are outdated and/or simply terrible.
Well to each his own. Still, I must say that the Brand build there has been working wonders for me.
Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
I like SC2 and LoL, play both games and maybe in the future will commentate both games. I hope the growth of e-sports means the growth of both games and the industry as a whole.
On February 05 2013 00:16 xSTaRFiSHx wrote: It is only natural for games to rival each other, though you are absolutely right about the fine line that shouldnt be crossed. Would it be too hard to simply be an "E-Sports-Community" as much as we are SCII-Community? :D
To the outside, we are the ESPORTS community. That's where the two should be aligned and supportive.
Internally, there's subcommunities and that's where there's bickering, because there's a perceived limited amount of resources and some jealousy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that internal bickering, until it impacts external perceptions (which it probably doesn't.)
If CoD8: MWBLOPS7x becomes the next huge thing, I have no doubt that LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that just as DotA2 and SC2 fans currently come together against LoL. And if an external force such as politicians start saying CoD8: MWBLOPS7x is too violent, then CoD8: MWBLOPS7x, DotA2, LoL and SC2 fans will come together against that.
That's why I think the forced hand holding is stupid. It all depends on the framing and at the individual game level, conflict and rivalry is natural, just as in a family. There's a line you shouldn't cross like upsetting casters/players (because you shouldn't be trying to upset anyone) but people bickering online can be a sign of health. In the case of LoL and SC2, they might be different enough that it's easy to accept both (although again, there's the limited resources thing,) but it seems clear that DotA2 and LoL are in direct competition and it's only natural to want your preferred game to win and the other to lose.
We can appreciate Wilhelm Kempff and BB King as different entities, but if they're touring the same cities at the same time and BB King played the biggest venues and gets the best record contracts, and Wilhelm Kempff was forced to play dueling pianos for tips at a bar, obviously Kempff (or his corpse) and his fans would not be favorable to that arrangement. It's easy for King, having the better arrangement, to say, "we should get along."
I don't know. I don't know why I would be against CoD8:MWBLOPS7x. Why should I?
When I first became away of the ESPORTS scene via the announcement of the SC2 beta and the BW Day[9] Dailies, I started watching a ton of stuff in the space. I found out about djWheat and started watching Lo3 and Epileptic Gaming every week. After hearing Wheat and Slasher talk about Slasher being persona non grata at Quake Con, I got interested enough to watch my first Quake matches. I loved them.
Then, I heard people talking about EVO, so I tuned into some of that. I didn't really understand what I was seeing, but I recognize hype. I don't even remember fully which fighting game it was. One of the SF ones, I think. Or maybe MvC. But I enjoyed both. Then I saw some Blazblue one day and found that interesting. I had been watching some MK9 as well. Now, I watch all sorts of computer gaming (not just ESPORTS) - from Minecraft to Speed Runs to Let's Plays to tournaments to reviews, etc. I cancelled cable TV and consume exclusively YouTube and stream content now.
Every time I watched more ESPORTS shows it was because I listened to prominent personalities talk about their games and I found a way to watch them. Some I enjoyed, some I didn't. Some I'll watch occasionally if I notice they are on, some I watch religiously and never miss, and some I will never watch again because I don't like them.
I tuned into these different shows in the first place because the personalities that I respected took the time to talk about these new games, tell people to try out new experiences and genres, and just get lost in the amazing era of streaming and competitive gaming.
Honestly, if djWheat spent his time picking favorites and shitting on different genres instead of being the gaming ambassador that he is, I probably wouldn't watch nearly as much content as I do now and I would not be aware of nearly as many cool events and gaming communities as I am. I think this is what DoA means. Prominent personalities can try to tear others down and "protect their product" or they can be ambassadors and realize that ESPORTS is not zero sum.
Honestly, if djWheat spent his time picking favorites and shitting on different genres instead of being the gaming ambassador that he is, I probably wouldn't watch nearly as much content as I do now and I would not be aware of nearly as many cool events and gaming communities as I am.
djWheat is the person who made the Breaking Bad/American Idol analogy referenced in the OP, iirc. I understood him to mean that SC2 was higher quality, but LOL had larger appeal.
- Riot Games Director of Community Relations Steve "Pendragon" Mescon - Riot paying tournament organisers to not pick up hon/dota 2
and my favourite:
- Riot keeps advertising their game as an esport when it clearly isnt. From the very getgo their design philosphy was to make the game easy to get into and eliminate the anti-fun factors (and they follow that philosophy to this day). The moment they noticed that LoL could be become a very popular eSport they pumped money into it to gain overall popularity for their game, which worked out very well for them.
But that doesnt change the fact that LoL is a dumbed down version of DotA. LoL is a great game imo (i played 700 games and had loads of fun), but its a terrible eSport. Its boring to watch (personal opinion ofc) and the amount of mechanical skill you need to have is laughable. The skillcap (not only mechanical) is ridiculously low for an eSport which is the main reason any pro player that wants to switch games will head to LoL because you can go pro in a fraction of the time you would have to invest to get good at dota or sc2. (also loads of money....take it while it lasts i guess) LoLs eSport scene just seems like a giant marketing campaign from riot. The moment they (or more like their parent company) decide that its not worth it anymore (which might "never" happen) the scene is dead.
If they change their design philosophy and actually consider putting in champions/mechanics that have a higher skillcap im the first to change my mind. Until then i treat it as what it is, which is a casual game masked as an eSport just to gain more moniez. By that im not saying Riot doesnt deserve money for their work, they should just stop pretending that their game is material for a competitive scene when its not.
Dont hate LoL the game, hate LoL the esport and the pretentious company behind it.
if you think about it in terms of 1990s RTS games, LoL is like C&C or even Starcraft, it does only the minimum amount needed to be an ARTS or MOBA or whatever but it does those things in a polished way that lots of people like.
DOTA is more like Total Annihilation, it does a fuckload of things and can create really interesting scenarios, but like TA it's less accessible because of that.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Honestly, if djWheat spent his time picking favorites and shitting on different genres instead of being the gaming ambassador that he is, I probably wouldn't watch nearly as much content as I do now and I would not be aware of nearly as many cool events and gaming communities as I am.
djWheat is the person who made the Breaking Bad/American Idol analogy referenced in the OP, iirc. I understood him to mean that SC2 was higher quality, but LOL had larger appeal.
You're right, he did, and I think it was a bad choice of word for him. But, he also has been an MC at the S2 Championships, plays LoL himself, talks in an informed way about LoL tournaments and teams, and brings LoL pros (like xPeke last week) on for interviews.
One possibly poorly worded analogy does not offset all the other great things he has done for the League of Legends community in addition to other communities.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
I dont think anyone believes SC2 is a worthy successor to BW at this point. And why should Riot be interested in other ESPORTS? they started out as a small company, and now they havet he most played game in the world. Why would they care about other ESPORTS? In the end it's all about money
I just don't like the game as much as I like Dota2 and Sc2. And also, I kind of dislike Riot for the shit they pulled past years. Not that I like blizzard much lately, but not nearly as much as I dislike Riot.
There is also the "my favorite football club" aspect. Supporters always bash opponent clubs. In E-sports there is some player bashing, but not on the scale as the hate football supporters can have for rival clubs. Maybe since football games are team vs team and in SC2, during a game it is 1 vs 1. Yes players are usually members of a team but still playing as individuals. So bashing them will get personal fast. Instead we seem to prefer to bash other games. You see the same in the arpg scene between diablo3 and path of exile communites.
Also, there are quite a few players who left our favorite game for Lol, that never goes well with supporters either.
And all that other team bashing never hurt football getting big though, so why would it hurt E-sports.
Doa, I for one am glad that you have decided to speak up against these little 'dig's' and responding by endeavoring to give them a better understanding of the game instead of entering another pointless argument. Your stance on this is the way forward and I respect that you care enough to speak up on this.
Thank you keep up the good work in eSports in general.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
Nostalgia can make you say/think pretty stupid things sometimes.
On February 05 2013 04:24 arb wrote: I dont think anyone believes SC2 is a worthy successor to BW at this point.
Ya fair but you have to be careful how you word posts that demean SC2 on this site.
On February 05 2013 04:21 jalstar wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:17 Sn0_Man wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
Nostalgia can make you say/think pretty stupid things sometimes.
I certainly don't play BroodWar anymore, but it was the best RTS game of it's time, and a fantastic esport. I still watch snipealot's stream. I'm well aware of the limitations it was under and the need for a successor. That doesn't make SC2 a good game...
The exact same goes for Dota 1. I don't play it anymore, and I'm aware that it has lots of peripheral issues that detracted from gameplay and that League addressed. That doesn't make league a good game... (note that Dota 2 is addressing the issues that I care about so yay).
I don't play N64 anymore, but that doesn't stop me from believing that mariokart64 was the best mariokart, period. Its personal preference. Old age and engine limitations don't make a game bad.
It's silly to argue I suppose, everyone's going to have their own opinion. I play all 3 games roughly the same, and what brings me satisfaction is winning with people I know and messing around w/ friends. If it takes me 5 mouse clicks rather than 50 mouse clicks, the end result is still the same.
this is kind of like when starcraft players try and compare their game to chess and suggest that they have similar strategic depth and skill requirements.
On February 05 2013 05:03 mykv wrote: this is kind of like when starcraft players try and compare their game to chess and suggest that they have similar strategic depth and skill requirements.
On February 05 2013 05:03 mykv wrote: this is kind of like when starcraft players try and compare their game to chess and suggest that they have similar strategic depth and skill requirements.
I find these threads hilarious, for exactly the reason you pointed out. It isn't hard to see that chess is substantially deeper strategically and that starcraft is about infinite times more difficult mechanically.
If my answers appear comical to others, then more power to them. I don't exactly expect to change people's mind but some people enjoy debate.
Edit: I suppose strategically and tactically are different. IMO Chess is more tactical but the point remains.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
Confirmed by several teams? You have to be kidding me. Two teams(EG and Complexity) made CLAIMS that this was the case, it's also worth noting niether of these teams had LoL divisions at the time but did have Dota divisions. They never provided any evidence to support their claims and were even refuted by a team(Dignitas) they asked to help back them up.
YOU need to get YOUR facts straight because what you are reffering to are verbal statements that in no way shape or form "confirm" anything.
I could care less if you hate LoL, bash it all day. However don't come into a forum and state things as facts when your source is someone with no evidence(scoots), because that makes you look like a liar.
Personally I recognize that I am far too invested in the SC2 scene to be remotely unbiased with regards to LoL, that being said I gave it a college try and it simply didn't strike my fancy. I respect the game,the strategy involved, though I have found my limited interactions with the community around the game to be disappointing.
I realize I rolled low and got the equivalent of having your first five games on ladder be BM players, who chat too much during any stage of the game and that there are respectful League players, but that kind of stuck with me at first exposure.
I am content to let sleeping dogs lie, I might pop into a LoL stream from time to time but that is about the extent of my interest. I don't read into the perceived animosity, just game and have fun.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
Confirmed by several teams? You have to be kidding me. Two teams(EG and Complexity) made CLAIMS that this was the case, it's also worth noting niether of these teams had LoL divisions at the time but did have Dota divisions. They never provided any evidence to support their claims and were even refuted by a team(Dignitas) they asked to help back them up.
YOU need to get YOUR facts straight because what you are reffering to are verbal statements that in no way shape or form "confirm" anything.
I could care less if you hate LoL, bash it all day. However don't come into a forum and state things as facts when your source is someone with no evidence(scoots), because that makes you look like a liar.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
Regardless, don't let this discussion about what did and didn't happen take away from the actual point.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the Esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
There was also an off the record source from one of the LoL teams looking to expand into dota.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the Esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
There was also an off the record source from one of the LoL teams looking to expand into dota.
Dignitas denied the claim, they already had a Dota 2 team and don't really gain anything from protecting Riot's image.
Edit: Doesn't confirm anything but it's something at least worth noting.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
Confirmed by several teams? You have to be kidding me. Two teams(EG and Complexity) made CLAIMS that this was the case, it's also worth noting niether of these teams had LoL divisions at the time but did have Dota divisions. They never provided any evidence to support their claims and were even refuted by a team(Dignitas) they asked to help back them up.
YOU need to get YOUR facts straight because what you are reffering to are verbal statements that in no way shape or form "confirm" anything.
I could care less if you hate LoL, bash it all day. However don't come into a forum and state things as facts when your source is someone with no evidence(scoots), because that makes you look like a liar.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
Regardless, don't let this discussion about what did and didn't happen take away from the actual point.
So your rebuttal to me is a restatement of your first post.
Why did Diginitas not stick with them and deny what they are claiming? You didn't touch that part of my post.
Sure verbal agreements are legally binding when you have a record off them. However I never heard of this record existing or any other documents even remotely relating to what you are talking about existing.
You would think that when something as big as game exclusivity among teams is being seriously considered there would be evidence pertaining to it.
You whole arguement is "he said she said" please don't try and claim it as anything other. Actualy please try to claim it is anything other.
I actually watched the LoL finals on IEM brazil as I wanna try play the game and enjoy watching it, but I can't say I was positive after watching the finals. When I was looking at the players one was playing with one hand from time to time when no hero was dead and all players looked completely relax like they were on vacation. so I can't agree with doa here saying there is a lot of mental thinking going on also everything he listed isn't difficult as they got a lot of time to make those decision,
LoL is a team play and knowledge based game. It looks somewhat like wow arena in my opinion where everything is a mess when all heroes fight each other and there was a lot times where nothing was happening but just fighting minion soldiers.
I watch both. I never thought I would watch LoL because of how it was in season 1. I played it casually from the start though. But now with all the changes to push ganking, to reduce vision and to reduce snowballing and the stale meta of sc2 I have to admit I probably watched more LoL over the holidays than sc2. sc2 I only watch GSL and PL if I get the time, other tournaments are pretty darn boring to watch, there is just not enough cheese and funky play to mix the macro games up. Thats why I will stick to the GSL and PL - and continue to follow LoL season 3. Additionally I have to admit, there is a huge skillgap between 80% foreign teams and korean/southeastasian teams in LoL - like in sc2. And the skillgap is getting bigger and bigger. I think this skillgap is the bigger problem (for foreign audiences which do not like to watch koreans - I know alot people who dont, me excluded) than the "fight" of two leading esports games.
edit: I myself love esports and believe that there should be several eSport titles. RTS (SC2), ARTS (DotA2), FPS (CS/Quake). I support eSports and I love it a lot, but I refuse to support an artificial eSport title such as League of Legends when you have a much better product on the market (DotA / DOTA2).
You can be said to be contradicting yourself. Ontopic: Why are we supposed to have Esports again? I came into competitive gaming to watch games I like played by the best players there are. I understand the frictions between the LoL and DOTA 2 communities (mostly coming from the DOTA 2 side), but I never got the elitism some SC2 fans exhibit in LoL-bashing threads. At first it was funny, because the same arguments that were used to brand BW fans opinions as illegitimate are constantly used to push up the value of SC2 compared to aRTS/MOBA-s. Now it's just annoying, since it's been exactly the same since OGN picked up LoL. I don't care about Esports in the slightest, other than desiring a reasonably stable environment to watch a chosen few games in. SC2 has that, so I really do not get what LoL-bashers coming from SC2 are trying to accomplish other than making huge dicks of themselves. There will be SC2 tournaments as long as there is interest in it. LoL tournaments exist because a lot of people enjoy watching them. They needn't work together for the good of some retarded arbitrary concept such as Esports, but criticism that's not aimed at making the other game better is not going to change anything.
edit: I myself love esports and believe that there should be several eSport titles. RTS (SC2), ARTS (DotA2), FPS (CS/Quake). I support eSports and I love it a lot, but I refuse to support an artificial eSport title such as League of Legends when you have a much better product on the market (DotA / DOTA2).
You can be said to be contradicting yourself. Ontopic: Why are we supposed to have Esports again? I came into competitive gaming to watch games I like played by the best players there are. I understand the frictions between the LoL and DOTA 2 communities (mostly coming from the DOTA 2 side), but I never got the elitism some SC2 fans exhibit in LoL-bashing threads. At first it was funny, because the same arguments that were used to brand BW fans opinions as illegitimate are constantly used to push up the value of SC2 compared to aRTS/MOBA-s. Now it's just annoying, since it's been exactly the same since OGN picked up LoL. I don't care about Esports in the slightest, other than desiring a reasonably stable environment to watch a chosen few games in. SC2 has that, so I really do not get what LoL-bashers coming from SC2 are trying to accomplish other than making huge dicks of themselves. There will be SC2 tournaments as long as there is interest in it. LoL tournaments exist because a lot of people enjoy watching them. They needn't work together for the good of some retarded arbitrary concept such as Esports, but criticism that's not aimed at making the other game better is not going to change anything.
This. I feel like so many people are missing DoA's original point. It shouldn't matter if person A likes to watch SC2 and person B likes to watch LoL, just as much as it shouldn't matter that person A likes to watch baseball and person B likes to watch hockey. Let each sport have it's own fanbase, who like it for it's own merits, and at the very least, give LoL some credit for making the Esports scene bigger than it has ever been before, just as back in 2010/2011 SC2 made the Esports scene bigger than it had ever been before.
People on things like talk shows should speak their mind and be honest while voicing their opinions or else what is the point of doing that type of content at all.
The way I look at it is they are two different games. Sc2 is fun to play and because I like playing it, I enjoy watching it. Dota 2 (I never touched LoL) is also fun to play and I like to watch it because I like playing it. And I can say the same for CoD. At the end of the day I play what I like for fun and watch what i like but I don't go off trying to compare apples too oranges its not really logical and a waste of time. I say just enjoy it if you like don't hate on others for liking it if you don't. Sc2 doesn't equal esports,neither does LoL, dota2, cod, street fighter, halo ect ect. Esports is the act of competing against each other in a video game.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
Confirmed by several teams? You have to be kidding me. Two teams(EG and Complexity) made CLAIMS that this was the case, it's also worth noting niether of these teams had LoL divisions at the time but did have Dota divisions. They never provided any evidence to support their claims and were even refuted by a team(Dignitas) they asked to help back them up.
YOU need to get YOUR facts straight because what you are reffering to are verbal statements that in no way shape or form "confirm" anything.
I could care less if you hate LoL, bash it all day. However don't come into a forum and state things as facts when your source is someone with no evidence(scoots), because that makes you look like a liar.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
Regardless, don't let this discussion about what did and didn't happen take away from the actual point.
So your rebuttal to me is a restatement of your first post.
Why did Diginitas not stick with them and deny what they are claiming? You didn't touch that part of my post.
Sure verbal agreements are legally binding when you have a record off them. However I never heard of this record existing or any other documents even remotely relating to what you are talking about existing.
You would think that when something as big game exclusivity among teams is being seriously considered there would evidence pertaining to it.
You whole arguement is "he said she said" please don't try and claim it as anything other. Actualy please try to claim it is anything other.
I don't even.. "he said she said", because them actually attaching the email or whichever actually makes a difference? These were clear statements made by the teams. Dignitas isn't worth mentioning because how can Dignitas comment on something Riot told EG and Complexity? I'm sure Riot didn't tell Dignitas the same thing, but that has nothing to do with what Riot told EG and Complexity. All Dignitas said was that Riot didn't tell Dignitas that they needed to be (moba-)exclusive to LoL to compete in S3. They certainly told EG and Complexity. You're fogging up the issue with irrelevant points. This is not vague, this is not unclear, this is 2 of the biggest teams in esports saying "hey, this happened".
If you want a record of Scoots saying what he did, I'm sure it's readily available if you dig a bit.
It was a big deal, it was a huge deal, which is why Riot first denied it and then when they got caught deleted statements where they got denied it and tried to pawn it off as a miscommunication. "Woops, did we say your organisation? Nah, clearly not what we meant." Hell, here's Kennigit confirming that Riot signed exclusivity agreements with tournament organizers as well as a bonus. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/z2wux/team_liquid_officially_covering_dota_2/c611bb4
I fully realize I generally get more information than a random Joe when it comes to esports, but you do not have to be an insider to know that this happened.
As for the actual topic. I would love for the SC2 community to get along with the LoL community and vice versa. History just shows that these kind of rivalries are part of esports. It's been that way since the earliest days of esports, quake vs counterstrike, and has had many iterations since. DoAs noble intentions aside, no logical or rational argument can put this to an end. It's honestly just something we should let be. If people want to express their loyalty to their franchise of choice in a toxic matter, well, that sucks. Sadly we can't stop them. And honestly, bringing it up just tends to fan the flames.
Hi all, I'm one of the millions of average players of both LoL and SC2.
I played LoL for years, and started playing SC2 a month ago, as opposed to most of the players now.
I'm bad at both games, reached only gold in LoL (back in s2) and now climbing in SC2 ladder, gold (and ultra-bad) now. And that's why I'm good at explaining people who are good at one game or the other (or both) something about us "masses".
I love playing LoL with friends, LoL it's like the game you play when you're a kid and you want to just stay outside as much as you can with you beloved friends playing whenever you can. It doesn't matter if they are as good as you, or if you're as good as they. The basics of LoL (like Soccer for example) are easy to grasp and we can play together even if one of us it's the worst gamer outta here. We can have fun together, ignoring personal skill. That's the reason why I played LoL so much. Moreover, we have a lot of fun analyzing pro's games. It may seem silly, but we're a bunch of students so we are pretty good at studying and theoryzing, and the theory behind LoL is pretty complex (not individually, but as far as goes for team interaction), so we can really have fun just talking of it, even if we're bad at the game we can understand some of his deep structure because pros explained them a bit. This makes the level of difficulty while approaching LoL as an entertainment basically 0.
(I know it seems far from the topic, I'll get there asap)
I started SC2 exactly because of the same reasons. I love being able to have fun with friends, but LoL is in my mind absolute shit when you're alone. The Matchmaking system is so stupid when you queue alone, and the game really sucks. On the other hand, SC2 is a 1v1 game, making me face my mistakes and my gameplay alone. It' requires a good amount of dedication to get started (I brought with me 4 friends trying starcraft 2, I am the only who continued playing it), the strategies are pretty dynamic (and the meta too, unlike LoL) and the complexity of the games makes every match a learning lesson.
And that's what I wanted to explain to you. The average SC2 has played for so long a 1v1 game that really can't grasp how complex can be coordinating with other teammates, and how frustrating can be to have a strategy but people that you cannot command fail to execute it. and you don't have control over it.. So you have to approach it with much lower expectations in terms of optimization (compared to SC2). You cannot say "I was 30s behind him, where I can get better", because you're dealing with a great amount of friendly actions you cannot control.
SC2 on the other hand but a huge emphasis on personal skill and therefore this mechanic is totally absent.
I don'y know if Lol can be an esport or not, but I find it without a doubt funny to watch, and competitive as far as team coordination is concerned. So my guess is, why not? It won't be like SC2 where all revolves around individual skill, and that's true because I left LoL also because is too forgiving on the mechanics side for my tastes. But team interaction is not less entertaining that some OMG plays I have saw in Sc2 tournaments. And if you read the reddit post, you know I approached to SC2 because it's goddamn good to watch.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
Referring to the dota-allstars site? Pendragon has always been good people in my personal experience, both ingame and out. He envisioned the project that created LoL even back when we played dota and put a lot of effort and work into making it successful.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
It's silly to say you hate a game because of a person working in the company. It's like saying SC2 is dumb b/c Blizz put a RMAH in d3.
I like SC2 (not so much WoL) and LoL as well as Brood War myself.
On February 05 2013 00:05 nomyx wrote: SC2, if you mess up you know it's your fault. Whether it's a micro problem, scouting problem, macro problem, ect, it's on you to fix it.
Same in LoL, unless you took a risk which you decided was worth it, it's your fault and this is how you learn and improve at the game. People who don't do this will always stay bad.
On February 04 2013 23:46 Irre wrote: SC2 is never going to have that mass appeal that a less complex, more accessible game like LoL would have. I think most of the hate is stemming from frustration that Blizzard has massively dropped the ball, and RIOT has run with it. We saw ourselves as the leader of Esports, the top dog, and that has basically evaporated in like a year.
I too, think Blizzard dropped the ball (more like kicked the ball out and attempted to retrieve another one to resolve the problem), I know too Blizzard is a frustrating company and I want nothing to do with companies such as these.
It's no surprise that many people who have posted in this topic simply don't have much knowledge of LoL (a great example of this is a person in this thread talking about itemization as a form of mind-games - which would most likely cost you the game on a pro level - referring to it as a lack of depth) or how it works or compares to DoTA (it's completely different from LoL) which is okay especially if they find the game boring. I found SC2 very boring to play which is why I don't play it or understand it in great depth, but I don't create mis-construed arguments about skill or "depth" or compare it to LoL or AoE. Many are comparing a RTS to a "MOBA" which I believe is because people consider certain skills higher skill-wise which I can understand and don't disagree but most of these people don't really understand LoL in-depth and their opinion is biased.
I can understand people hating Pendragon, he did something very bad and from personal experience it sucks but I think many people are just automatically hating Riot/LoL for something one person did.
When you have religious nutjobs preaching their crap, trying to convert you and spreading the word of god, that's kinda what it feels like when part of the SC2/dota community trash-talks other games, you wanna kick them in the nuts and tell them to stop being sheep.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
It's silly to say you hate a game because of a person working in the company. It's like saying SC2 is dumb b/c Blizz put a RMAH in d3.
Of course, that's why I already outline what I dislike about it earlier in this thread.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
Referring to the dota-allstars site? Pendragon has always been good people in my personal experience, both ingame and out. He envisioned the project that created LoL even back when we played dota and put a lot of effort and work into making it successful.
Yes. Imagine if Nazgul shut down all of team liquid without a moment's notice (I'm not saying he would, just speaking hypothetically). All this content gone. User created guides, replays from SC2 / BW, decade olds threads. Imagine if all that was delete and all that was left was a link taking you to a new game that he helped make, which for the sake of conversation let's assume it was a "less than stellar" rip off of SC2.
On February 05 2013 01:34 son1dow wrote: I'll try to keep this brief and concise.
1) Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that. This is enough reason to hate on the game, period. This defeats any argument about respecting other games.
2) LoL is easy.
a) It's a shamelessly dumbed down version of DotA, that's very obvious. How is this not sad?
b) It's difficulty is based largely on pure knowledge, which is obviously neither very impressive nor very valuable. Pretty much all good sports and games are the opposite of that.
c) It very mechanically easy.
d) It has little skills involved in general. This makes the game shallow.
e) When there are so few skills, they don't mesh and produce more complicated gameplay. This is the most important part. This is something you seem to have failed to grasp entirely - mechanical skill IS important because in some games like QuakeWorld, it makes teamplay and other skills just that much harder, varied and important, increasing the difficulty of the game exponentially. If a game is teamwork only, it's teamwork will only be more important, not more difficult.
f) It promotes a > b > c > a gameplay. It's why players play multiple champions - it's easy enough to learn a bunch of them because champion advantage is more important than the negligible skill advantage.
The argument we're having seems to be a little like bowling vs. football - you can't deny that in bowling, aim constitutes a larger percentage of the game, yet... Isn't it obvious which takes more skill? [Barring the popularity, to which this comparison doesn't apply].
3) It delegitimizes esports in general. How would you like to have bowling and football on the same stage? At this point, respecting the bowling players and spectators might be secondary. Why should anyone have respect for players that do things which are... not that extraordinary, after all?
4) This whole idea supports games getting easier. If we bring esports to mainstream by making it casual... Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
A couple of notes. I. You are free to enjoy LoL, I don't blame you. Just don't call it what it isn't. And don't force anyone to stop supporting other (better competitively ) games. II. If anyone cares about competitive gaming, they SHOULD be free to discuss what is good for an esport. This is undeniable. I'm tired of seeing gaming veterans getting lumped in with mindless bashers by most major. No, being positive isn't the only thing anyone should do. That would be, frankly, stupid.
You just got to read point 1 to know you are in for a treat.
I'm sorry, you disagree with that? Are you aware of what Riot tried to pull off with professional teams, for example?
Dude, you can't say "Riot's strategy is dangerous to esports. It would be blatantly hypocritical to deny that" without any kind of further justification, and expect people to take you seriously. Riot is the main company making esports grow lately as far as I know, so if you think you have a point, you're going to need to explain it
He's going off the supposed rumor that Riot only lets teams choose between a LoL and Dota2 team. Note the rumor part. Last I checked EG still has their dota2 team? Even if they did, well you can't work for Lockheed and Boeing at the same time, can you. It's a business
For fucks sake, that wasn't a rumor, that was confirmed by several teams. The teams went public because it was in their eyes unacceptable. This actually happened. They even tried to cover it up and then several teams stated "no, this wasn't an accident, it's what you told us". I don't care about the rest of the discussion, but at least get your facts straight.
Confirmed by several teams? You have to be kidding me. Two teams(EG and Complexity) made CLAIMS that this was the case, it's also worth noting niether of these teams had LoL divisions at the time but did have Dota divisions. They never provided any evidence to support their claims and were even refuted by a team(Dignitas) they asked to help back them up.
YOU need to get YOUR facts straight because what you are reffering to are verbal statements that in no way shape or form "confirm" anything.
I could care less if you hate LoL, bash it all day. However don't come into a forum and state things as facts when your source is someone with no evidence(scoots), because that makes you look like a liar.
2 of the biggest esports teams in the US come forth and state that this happened and you think it's still a rumor? How thick can you be. And Scoots saying the cover-up about it being a "miscommunication" being verbal somehow makes it less true? Hell, a verbal agreement is legally binding, but sure, lets pretend whether it was said or written has any relevance. Esports isn't lala-land, you shouldn't just ignore whatever is inconvenient to you. But hey, if you don't trust EG and Complexity, carry on.
Some day someone's going to write the book on all the esports debauchery and this won't even be bad enough to be a footnote.
Regardless, don't let this discussion about what did and didn't happen take away from the actual point.
So your rebuttal to me is a restatement of your first post.
Why did Diginitas not stick with them and deny what they are claiming? You didn't touch that part of my post.
Sure verbal agreements are legally binding when you have a record off them. However I never heard of this record existing or any other documents even remotely relating to what you are talking about existing.
You would think that when something as big game exclusivity among teams is being seriously considered there would evidence pertaining to it.
You whole arguement is "he said she said" please don't try and claim it as anything other. Actualy please try to claim it is anything other.
I don't even.. "he said she said", because them actually attaching the email or whichever actually makes a difference? These were clear statements made by the teams. Dignitas isn't worth mentioning because how can Dignitas comment on something Riot told EG and Complexity? I'm sure Riot didn't tell Dignitas the same thing, but that has nothing to do with what Riot told EG and Complexity. All Dignitas said was that Riot didn't tell Dignitas that they needed to be (moba-)exclusive to LoL to compete in S3. They certainly told EG and Complexity. You're fogging up the issue with irrelevant points. This is not vague, this is not unclear, this is 2 of the biggest teams in esports saying "hey, this happened".
If you want a record of Scoots saying what he did, I'm sure it's readily available if you dig a bit.
It was a big deal, it was a huge deal, which is why Riot first denied it and then when they got caught deleted statements where they got denied it and tried to pawn it off as a miscommunication. "Woops, did we say your organisation? Nah, clearly not what we meant." Hell, here's Kennigit confirming that Riot signed exclusivity agreements with tournament organizers as well as a bonus. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/z2wux/team_liquid_officially_covering_dota_2/c611bb4
I fully realize I generally get more information than a random Joe when it comes to esports, but you do not have to be an insider to know that this happened.
I don't undrstand why you are reffering me to statements of people saying this is true. The statements you show me don't provide evidence, they provide more baseless claims. That doesn't help argue your point.
If you are not familiar with the term "he said she said" it basicly means: Riot and EG/Complexity both say different things but neither of them can support their claims with evidence. Thing is it's up to EG/Complexity to prove Riot guilty not Riot to prove themselves innocent as they are not the ones making any claims.
You say Dignitas isn't worth mentioning?. They are a team who would have had both a Dota2 division and LoL division so why are they not worth mentioning? The claims that were made were that ALL teams with Dota2 divs and LoL divs would have to become LoL only to be able to compete in S3. So they are most definately worth mentioning.
"It was a big deal, it was a huge deal" Then why doesn't anyone claiming what you are claiming have any evidence. I'm sorry I don't have "faith" in you guys, but the impact of statements you are making require there to be evidence to prove them.
On February 05 2013 06:12 Martijn wrote: As for the actual topic. I would love for the SC2 community to get along with the LoL community and vice versa. History just shows that these kind of rivalries are part of esports. It's been that way since the earliest days of esports, quake vs counterstrike, and has had many iterations since. DoAs noble intentions aside, no logical or rational argument can put this to an end. It's honestly just something we should let be. If people want to express their loyalty to their franchise of choice in a toxic matter, well, that sucks. Sadly we can't stop them. And honestly, bringing it up just tends to fan the flames.
I think DoA fully realizes that the communities will always bicker about who is better. That's what all communities do. However, the personalities and the leaders should NOT be bickering like that. They should be the ones who realize their responsibility to not start shit between games and try to create us vs them mentalities.
Is that impossible? I don't think so. There is a far smaller pool of personalities and leaders, and it is a lot easier to appeal to them than to make everyone get in line. Plus, the people look to their favorite personalities to lead by example. If leaders strike a better tone and really promote that people get into new genres instead of shitting on them, then more people will follow their lead.
At least, that's my hypothesis. I don't know if there is an empirical evidence to support or refute that claim.
The best and the only way to put the debate about SC2 vs LOL away is for TeamLiquid Pro to acquire a LOL team, I think its about time to get of our elitist mentality.
There are a lot of things that Blizzard could (should) have done, which Riot did and enhanced their game to the audience worldwide.
But yeah TLDR: TL get a LOL team please!! I think we are ready!
Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
Honestly, if djWheat spent his time picking favorites and shitting on different genres instead of being the gaming ambassador that he is, I probably wouldn't watch nearly as much content as I do now and I would not be aware of nearly as many cool events and gaming communities as I am.
djWheat is the person who made the Breaking Bad/American Idol analogy referenced in the OP, iirc. I understood him to mean that SC2 was higher quality, but LOL had larger appeal.
Did he really? Oh dear. lol I guess I should be taking this up with him then!
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
Uh no? That was your point. Pretty sure it started with sth. along the lines of "I hate LOL/Riot whatever because they are scumbags".
Maybe the officer searching your car doesn't find any weed and thus has no legal grounds to arrest you, but when your car is filled with smoke that smells like weed chances are he'll call you a stoner. And he'll be right.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
Uh no? That was your point. Pretty sure it started with sth. along the lines of "I hate LOL/Riot whatever because they are scumbags".
Uh yes? I'm only arguing my point. It being the only point means it's The point. Really making me reiterate that? I don't care about anything in this thread than other than the statements being portrayed as facts without evidence hence unqualifying them as facts.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
It's silly to say you hate a game because of a person working in the company. It's like saying SC2 is dumb b/c Blizz put a RMAH in d3.
Of course, that's why I already outline what I dislike about it earlier in this thread.
On February 05 2013 01:46 Kipsate wrote: Not suprisingly these blogs devolve into lol vs dota vs sc2 arguments very quickly.
Considering it started as such, I'm not personally surprised.
One of the bigger reasons I dislike league is pendragon. That guy burned us pretty bad a few years ago and it's sickening to see the kind of worship he's getting.
Referring to the dota-allstars site? Pendragon has always been good people in my personal experience, both ingame and out. He envisioned the project that created LoL even back when we played dota and put a lot of effort and work into making it successful.
Yes. Imagine if Nazgul shut down all of team liquid without a moment's notice (I'm not saying he would, just speaking hypothetically). All this content gone. User created guides, replays from SC2 / BW, decade olds threads. Imagine if all that was delete and all that was left was a link taking you to a new game that he helped make, which for the sake of conversation let's assume it was a "less than stellar" rip off of SC2.
Yeah, I know what happened. I had my old dota podcasts up on there too, between that and megaupload going down I have no proof "double damage" ever existed or much of anything from that time. There really were some good intentions involved for what it's worth. The plan I was told really was to make all the content available.
But yeah, road to hell, good intentions. We all know what happened and that it didn't end right.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conversation.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conversation.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conversation.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
The problem is that the issue was settled a long time ago. It was clear that at one point Riot actually told teams about the exclusivity thing. The one thing that I do not believe has been uncovered is whether or not Riot rescinded the policy before people found out about it or after the shitstorm hit. It DID happen, though. It's not opinion. Go do the research and feel free to come back if you find conflicting evidence, but the burden of proof is on you at this point, because you're challenging what's known to be true.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conven.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
You're incredibly naive. By your reasoning, WW never signed morrow. All we did is release a statement, clearly unless we show his contract, he's a free agent.
I don't owe you any answers. Personally I don't care if you believe me or not. My only interest is that you don't muddy up the conversation. Any hopes of having a remotely insightful or constructive conversation is slowly slipping away.
In the end mechanics aren’t actually that important
Wickd is the only LoL player that I'm watching streaming. It always fun to hear him say "I got such an advantage over him, he is gonna get crushed" and then gets owned 1v1 ten seconds after. That's the proof that mechanics are very important. A pro player should know when he is gonna get wrecked and when he is gonna win because in LoL there is very few randomness in 1v1, it just mechanical : "I have, X items, Y stats, Z level, you have A item, B stats, C level, I'm gonna win or i'm gonna lose based on these factor"
Saying that mecanics aren't important is allowing wickd to jump into a fight 1v5 shouting "I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL" against TPA or any other good team.
In the end mechanics aren’t actually that important
Wickd is the only LoL player that I'm watching streaming. It always fun to hear him say "I got such an advantage over him, he is gonna get crushed" and then gets owned 1v1 ten seconds after. That's the proof that mechanics are very important. A pro player should know when he is gonna get wrecked and when he is gonna win because in LoL there is very few randomness in 1v1, it just mechanical : "I have, X items, Y stats, Z level, you have A item, B stats, C level, I'm gonna win or i'm gonna lose based on these factor"
mechanics are important, even in LoL.
Creep aggro, jungle presence, burst, cc etc heroes hit power peaks at certain levels, where you could kill them easily 1 level ago, the entire thing turns around and you get raped instead. understand how much damage you'll deal in relation to how much they can deal, while calculating armor/mr reduction
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conversation.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
The problem is that the issue was settled a long time ago. It was clear that at one point Riot actually told teams about the exclusivity thing. The one thing that I do not believe has been uncovered is whether or not Riot rescinded the policy before people found out about it or after the shitstorm hit. It DID happen, though. It's not opinion. Go do the research and feel free to come back if you find conflicting evidence, but the burden of proof is on you at this point, because you're challenging what's known to be true.
Where was this issue settled the entire arguement never got off the ground from being a rumour, because no one had any evidence. In what way was it clear, it was everything but clear that riot told teams they had to be exclusive.
I don't believe EG/Complexity when they can't show anything and when Diginitas clearly said they did not have to be exclusive. The far more likely scenario was miscommunication seeing as those two teams where the only ones to report exclusivity when there was already plenty of teams who had Dota2/LoL divisions and never said anything of the sort.
If you are trying to prove something DID happen it should be rather easy for you to do so. I have no burden of proof to prove something did not happen.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conven.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
You're incredibly naive. By your reasoning, WW never signed morrow. All we did is release a statement, clearly unless we show his contract, he's a free agent.
I don't owe you any answers. Personally I don't care if you believe me or not. My only interest is that you don't muddy up the conversation. Any hopes of having a remotely insightful or constructive conversation is slowly slipping away.
Take a contract signing and compare it to an issue that started a false witch hunt across the internet. Ridiculous. If you can't prove to me that evidence exists who can you prove it too?
Constructive conversation ended with "I can't prove it, but believe I'm in the know"
The reason why LoL will always be bashed in this manner is because of the mechanics, or at least that is what I think. I actually have started playing LoL recently ... I'm embarressed to say... it is quite fun to play with my friends...
Anyway, it is true that you have to think of alot of things... but in terms of sheer mechanics there just isn't as much to do Physically. Which makes me think in the back of my head, "any competant sc2 progamer could switch to LoL and eventually be good, whereas it doesn't apply the other way around"
I'm not saying this is true! I'm just saying that I can't help thinking that it could be true. Anyways, I am finally starting to grow up and I do hope that both SC2 and LoL can succeed... as well as dota 2. I would also love to see CS:GO hit it big.
On February 05 2013 06:45 Monsen wrote: Yeah right. The only thing is... This is not a courtroom. It seems far more reasonable for Riot to pull this crap because obviously it greatly benefits their cause. Neither EG nor CoL have any advantage from making this up. So sure, Riot might not be guilty in a courtroom, but it's certainly enough to tarnish the opinion people have of them.
The entire point was whether Riot was guilty in a courtroom. I have no problem with him or you saying in your opinion this what you think happenned, but do not state it as fact without evidence like what is currently being done.
So basically what you're saying is "yeah for all intents and purposes you're right and this happen, but you might not be able to sway all 12 of the jurors beyond reasonable doubt with only public statements from credible parties". Yeah thanks so much for your contribution. Definitely didn't derail the conven.
For everyone else, please don't waste time arguing whether this did or didn't happen. It really did, let's get back to the actual point.
No I'm saying for all intents and purposes it did not happen until you can prove other wise. You can say you think that it happened thats cool but don't make claims with no evidence.
It amazes me you can say that seriously on a forum with nothing to back you up. Whats obvious to me is you genuinely don't care to provide people with answers and want to use your status as a means to prove your point. For some people that may be good enough, not for me.
You're incredibly naive. By your reasoning, WW never signed morrow. All we did is release a statement, clearly unless we show his contract, he's a free agent.
I don't owe you any answers. Personally I don't care if you believe me or not. My only interest is that you don't muddy up the conversation. Any hopes of having a remotely insightful or constructive conversation is slowly slipping away.
Take a contract signing and compare it to an issue that started a false witch hunt across the internet. Ridiculous. If you can't prove to me that evidence exists who can you prove it too?
Constructive conversation ended with "I can't prove it, but believe I'm in the know"
Actually, I thought I was pretty clear in stating that I didn't care if you believed me or not. Nor was it intended to be part of a constructive conversation, it was ending the conversation. Now, here's to getting back to the actual discussion.
On February 05 2013 07:47 Tuxedo wrote: Anyway, it is true that you have to think of alot of things... but in terms of sheer mechanics there just isn't as much to do Physically. Which makes me think in the back of my head, "any competant sc2 progamer could switch to LoL and eventually be good, whereas it doesn't apply the other way around"
there have been loads of sc pro players switching and have done nothing remarkable yet
I was gonna argue all of the bs I see in this thread but it won't change anyones mind unfortunately..
Myself, I started in SC2, didn't play LoL until my friends got me into it and I can tell that the game is easily as hard as SC2 in the top level, sorry if you don't agree but it simply is, the skillset is just different.
I think people constantly misunderstand where LoL stands in terms of skill cap etc.
Mechanically, League of Legends' skill floor is low. It is what makes it highly accessible and "casual". With that said, it does not mean League of Legends is easy to master. Skillshots, reaction, last-hitting, orb-walking etc still exist in this game. The mechanical skill cap is high but how high and how we measure it - it is all up to debate.
This brings us to the next topic: tactics and strategy. League of Legends by far requires a great deal of tactics and strategy. Because the focus of the game is not mechanics, the tactics and strategy skill has a greater emphasis. We've seen where team compositions and strategies shine. We've seen other teams outplay another team even if they're behind. Like Idra said, he encountered a certain complexity to League of Legends which makes the game fun. This complexity is related to the champions, masteries, runes, team compositions and execution. Picking that correct champion to match your team's composition - Setting your runes and masteries to counter the enemy laner - Executing that poke strat comp or late game stall comp (EG is known very well for this) are all part of tactics and strategy skills.
Many casual spectators of League of Legends games don't know the intricacies of LoL strategy which is consistently watched by blind eyes. If many of the Team Liquid community members do not play League of Legends, I do not expect them to be able to appreciate and enjoy League of Legends streams very well. To many SC2 players who tried to watch LoL, it might look boring or uninteresting. It is like Baseball: you need to understand the deeper strategies behind it. Like putting a man into scoring position and the next batter has the capability to hit a fly ball to outfield to score a sac run. It is strategies what makes LoL very exciting to watch and executed. However a lot of these strategies at the same time are interconnected with team skill as well.
Unlike Starcraft II and Dota/2, League of Legends has an intricate design that involves all players to play a role in a team. Very rare can one person handily win a game. Team skill is a huge component here in this game and those who lack team skills will definitely fail. Look at trolls, many of them neglect the fact that they cannot work with other players as a team thus they constantly fail and blame their teammates. Your attitude, communication, leadership & teamwork attribute to your team skills. No other game does this unlike League of Legends. Straight from when you enter champion select, your team skills are in use already. Teams that do not mesh together self-destruct and lose. There are people in League of Legends and outside observers who honestly do not realize or even understand how important team skills are in this game. When EU teams broke out and became on top of NA teams, a lot of this attributed to the teamwork and coordination of a team. When Gambit Gaming broke out from IEM Kiev/Hannover, they were looking like the perfect oiled machine due to their team fighting and team strategies. Their coordination allowed early aggression done that the scene had never seen before while the NA scene still had teams that constantly had persistent infighting amongst each other teammates (Hotshotgg vs Saintvicious, Reginald vs TheRainMan etc.).
In the end, one can conclude that League of Legends, while does not have an exceedingly high mechanical skill cap or entry skill floor like Starcraft II, still has multiple layers of skill sets that is required to play effectively and professionally. Most outsiders who look into League of Legends might not fully understand the complexity the game offers but those who do play will realize it. It is as valid as an esport as any other game that calls itself an esport. Respect that.
An interesting read, and a perennial topic for you DoA. (Not the specific LoL vs. SC2, but the steady drumbeat of "we are all eSports, harmonize and don't get negative with each other.) A word of warning, though, for you... lots of people that sincerely push for togetherness, inclusiveness, and mutual respect wind up taking a beating from those who vocally believe otherwise. So be strong, and keep up the good work! You're better than the haters.
As to the topic at hand... when I read that quote (didn't see the show, and haven't sat down with the VODs yet) I didn't catch the subtext at hand. It could be, but then I think that also says something about the people interpreting it. It implies that WalMart is "less" or "bad" while Whole Foods is "better" - an idea I have never really felt was that true. They're both different, and I think it's more a commentary on the specific *fans* of the games. WalMart is more open (because of their prices and market penetration) to more people, runs 24/7 in many places, and is where a lot of people go to shop. Whole Foods is a more narrow market - it caters to specific tastes, is generally more expensive, and has a certain atmosphere in the store, employees, and patrons. Going to WalMart, you're not likely to run into people that feel that they are "better" because they shop there. On the other hand, going into Whole Foods you will run into people with some interesting beliefs about their worth in part because they are shopping at Whole Foods. (There's a whole host of reasons, arguments, and discussions that can be had on that topic - but not here.) I read that comparison in a similar vein - LoL has a wider audience, more players, and more of a casual feeling compared to StarCraft 2. StarCraft 2's audience is smaller, more focused on their game, and (sadly) a touch elitist. Both games are different. (Note: I'm talking about just players, not professionals. I expect professional players to be about even in dedication, knowledge, and general skills.) Random players in League are more likely to say "you should do this" to random teammates first, as opposed to "What the hell are you doing? Are you some bronze league noob?" (At least, as far as I can tell - I've run across both in both places. This is anecdotal, not scientific.)
Personally, I enjoy SC2 more than LoL, playing or watching. And some of Riot's business practices I am very unhappy about. But I'm not going to go out of my way to bash on LoL. And Adebisi makes a good point - a talk show is supposed to be pretty free flowing. (The Pulse, I think, is still finding a balance, but is a great show. More "main stream" than its competitors, but still with moments where you think "Did Ben just say that to Lauren?!?") And opinions are part of that.
I think overall shows are tending to err on the side you're advocating DoA - hell, even 2GD generally isn't giving his opinion of LoL and just staying quiet. But I also think that you have to allow free debate in these shows, and good natured poking fun is a part of that. Following a soft poke with a great segment about the subject shows that we can joke amongst ourselves but still conveys an amount of respect for the subject.
TL; dr - We should all get along, but we shouldn't straightjacket public figures' speech because it might reinforce or increase sentiments we don't like.
Also, I shop at Target, which is obviously superior to all others. (So, that would be what? BW in the current metaphor?)
On February 05 2013 08:08 Falling wrote: Why would you be embarrassed? I like BW and LoL. What now?
hahaha awesome comment is awesome... mixing those two would be like mixing steak and icecream, both the opposite to one another but both still great pieces of food!^^
Great blog by the way, personally I dont like LoL because of the no denying-mechanic (seriously what the eff is up with that...)
but I agree with you, just because I dont like it doesnt mean that others arent allowed to like it.
I love SC2 and LOL. At the moment I play a lot of lol and also watch it, but I spent 2 years exclusively watching sc2. Both have their advantages/disadvantages.
Both are great to watch and to play and I hope both of them live on for a long time.
If people REALLY cared about skill cap that much then they'd be playing Brood War, not Starcraft 2. But they don't. They just want to be elitists and talk shit about something else to make themselves feel good.
On February 05 2013 09:27 GolemMadness wrote: If people REALLY cared about skill cap that much then they'd be playing Brood War, not Starcraft 2. But they don't. They just want to be elitists and talk shit about something else to make themselves feel good.
Not a good idea if it's in March. It will be hyped up, but most games will be like 1 base gimmick plays that end within 10 minutes, since it's a new game and the meta is messy. Korean fans who are used to the long, constant battles of BW will be again disappointed and give up the last hope.
Hard to take something like this seriously. Guys who make money off of casting multiple games begging their hardcore fans to cross-pollinate..
Guess what, in real sports, hockey fans and basketball fans and baseball fans might have some crossover, but the most hardcore of fans still spend their time deriding the other sports and claiming theirs as the one true sport. Shit talking it part of sport, be it playing or watching. I don't think we'll ever see it go away, and i'm getting a little tired of professionals (who make more money than players) trying to get support for other games from their hardcore fanbases. Let alone supporting Riot who actively tries to push down and exclude other games.
Would it make "esports" stronger if every fan watched every game, so every event got huge numbers? Sure it would, just like it would in real sports (Think superbowl #s, where even non-fans tune in). But to do that consistently is impossible, and to ask it when you make your living from being a cross-game professional is just slimy.
Also, thanks for letting us not having an opinion. You know, as somebody who enjoys LoL, SC2, and DotA 2, I can admit that LoL is simply an easier game mechanically (no question), and its easy to argue that its also an easier game strategically. But I also enjoy playing LoL because Riot did a good job of making it an easy, fun game that everybody can pick up, which I appreciate. But I guess I'm killing esports for thinking that. Oops!
And oh please. You're telling us how it's wrong for us to "impose our beliefs" on others (apparently, if you call somebody fat, in reality they're not fat and you're just making them think that they're fat . . ?), you're sitting here imposing your belief on us that LoL is an equal game to SC2. Good job.
Its ok though because Walmart is evil, they have vile business practices and make their employees lives worse off than if they were working for any other store similar to Walmart.
On February 05 2013 08:08 Falling wrote: Why would you be embarrassed? I like BW and LoL. What now?
I'm on the same boat as you :D
On February 05 2013 09:27 GolemMadness wrote: If people REALLY cared about skill cap that much then they'd be playing Brood War, not Starcraft 2. But they don't. They just want to be elitists and talk shit about something else to make themselves feel good.
Takes a (former) elitist to know an elitist, and current SC2 community makes the BW elitists look rather tame.
On February 05 2013 10:34 14fighter wrote: Its ok though because Walmart is evil, they have vile business practices and make their employees lives worse off than if they were working for any other store similar to Walmart.
It's not embarassing, I played/watched sc for years, but since a few months ago my old friends introduced me to actually play league with them and I had fun. I started watching LoL streamers to understand more of the game and champion so I find it a lot more entertaining atm. And.. it's a team game.
And about the skills involving LoL, it's definitely obvious that sc requires more skill/apm, but any game at the pro level is hard.. Not to long ago, I've watched some of the members of TSM play sc2 while the LoL client was down, they were.. er pretty bad. (2 of them gold/plat, 1 of them masters)
Ok, as a DotA2, Sc2, LoL player i feel like i need to adress some things i've read in this blog:
1 - "We need to unite and cheer for Esports, tell ur friends, family, pet, grandparents!"
WHAT?! Seriously?! I am paying 50 bucks for a copy of the game and i'm the one who's suppose to advertise it because i "need to support e-sports"???
Lets get real here okay, blizzard is a fucking huge ass company and it knows how to run and advertise its games, it has been successfull with WoW, Warcraft and all of the other games it has released for like 2 decades now, and they KNOW they're losing players to LoL.
"But Galfi, i LOVE starcraft, it's a more deep, complex, beautifull game than LoL will ever be! it's not fair that LoL gets 10x more players and 5~6x more viewers than starcraft!"
WELL BOO HOO, you can do NOTHING about it! Riot is the one investing rivers of money into a FREE-ASS game and shoving it down the throats of people on every corner of the internetz, because that's how you advertise a game, and guess what? it freaking works! Nobody gives a shit if sc2 is a more complex game, and i bet like 70% of the LoL players dont even are knowledgeable about the existence of an RTS game called Starcraft, they just downloaded a FREE game, they play it, and they like it, and that's all that is to it...
Companies are the ones who are supposed to advertise their shit in order to make it popular, so kudos to riot for executing a proper business model and getting rich.
So, to sum up, starcraft fans, stop being jealous hipsters crying about how harder your game is, and how it should be the one getting the e-sports scene attention right now, doesn't work like that.
2 - "LoL as just as hard as Starcraft, it's just a different kind of 'hard' "
Bullshit, you know it, everybody knows it, starcraft is a more deep complex strategic game, as a player of LoL AND Starcraft i can affirm that, so LoL players should stop being retard about it and just admit that starcraft is a more well tought and well crafted game overall...
Wich leads me to my final rant
3 - "LoL/Starcraft is better than it's counterpart"
Does more deep strategical thinking and harder mechanics to execute make a better game?
Following that logic, Chess-Boxing should be the most popular sport in the world, cuz people punch each other in the head, and after a round, have to use that same head to play FUCKING CHESS.
So, the answer you're looking for is NO.
Does a game being popular and having waaaaaay bigger fanbase than the other mean it's better?
I challenge you to get in the united states of america and claim that soccer (most watched sport in the world) is the best sport. People will just tear you down with arguments of how a well played defensive blitz at the super bowl is way more exciting than any soccer match.
So, the answer you're looking for is NO.
It's all a matter os TASTE!
SC2 is hardcore, if you want a real challenging and rewarding game, go play it, u'll enjoy it for sure!
LoL is pretty difficult for someone who has never played anything before, but u'll get good a LOT faster than any other game around, and will be easily rewarded in casual matches by spamming your spells togheter with your friends.
There's an audience for both, just like there's people who enjoy eddie murphy movies, and others who like denzel washington's ones.
Honestly, if djWheat spent his time picking favorites and shitting on different genres instead of being the gaming ambassador that he is, I probably wouldn't watch nearly as much content as I do now and I would not be aware of nearly as many cool events and gaming communities as I am.
djWheat is the person who made the Breaking Bad/American Idol analogy referenced in the OP, iirc. I understood him to mean that SC2 was higher quality, but LOL had larger appeal.
You're right, he did, and I think it was a bad choice of word for him. But, he also has been an MC at the S2 Championships, plays LoL himself, talks in an informed way about LoL tournaments and teams, and brings LoL pros (like xPeke last week) on for interviews.
One possibly poorly worded analogy does not offset all the other great things he has done for the League of Legends community in addition to other communities.
I'm not criticizing DJ Wheat... You're the one saying his analogy is poorly worded. I think his analogy is perfect and accurate.
On February 05 2013 10:11 LowEloPlayer wrote: > Comments like this hurts the community
> Causes more drama by mentioning it
Good job, Doa!
Also, thanks for letting us not having an opinion. You know, as somebody who enjoys LoL, SC2, and DotA 2, I can admit that LoL is simply an easier game mechanically (no question), and its easy to argue that its also an easier game strategically. But I also enjoy playing LoL because Riot did a good job of making it an easy, fun game that everybody can pick up, which I appreciate. But I guess I'm killing esports for thinking that. Oops!
Love you Doa, I'm completely honest when saying The Champions Winter was my favorite esports tournament of the last year. The finals were just amazing, hope you stay with OGN for a looong time
Let me preface this by saying i don't hate LoL, LoL players, etc. People will play the game they like, its perfectly reasonable. I have played near a thousand games of LoL across multiple accounts, probably equal of games of dota2, and i have watched obscene amounts of hours of sc2.
The part of this that's missing (for me) in claiming that Dota2/SC2 fans shouldn't ever bash lol or have a negative attitude towards it is RIOT GAMES. + Show Spoiler +
Riot games has bought ipl, mlg, and iem into "exclusivity contracts" that say they are not allowed to feature any other games of the "moba genre". By riots definition (since they invented the term) this means Dota2. If i love dota2, which according to the people making arguments for LoL it should be our right to love whichever game we do, then this is really bad for me. The three biggest and best western esports organizers can't feature the game i love, because riot has more money and deems it necessary to employ such a shady business tactic that inargubaly serves only to make them more money at the expense of other games AKA esports as a whole. "yeah lol well its a business lol get over it". Ok, well if its just a business and we should all sabotage "esports" at every chance we get if it means helping our game get bigger, then why the fuck are you telling me not to bash lol and that i should band together to support all esports? There are numerous other examples of riot doing things like this, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. Riot Pendragon abruptly shut down DotA-allstars.com without warning. A site which had hours and hours of community discussion, guides, etc centered around DotA. Now every page of it redirects to an advertisement for pendragons new game, which is a free to play clone of DotA. LoL didn't have a fraction of even DotA's playerbase yet, but that alone was already enough for people who loved DotA to hate riot games. As someone else pointed out in this thread, think if nazgul without warning tommorow made every page of teamliquid redirect to an ad for his new game, a ripoff of sc2. Without warning, all your guides and resources and discussion down the toilet, for his profit. Awhile after this, riot tried to claim that they owned DotA. A number of people who uploaded wc3 DotA content to youtube were warned by youtube to take it down, because Riot Games Inc had claimed copyright. Morello and Zileas like to post on their forums bashing DotA's design in a completely matter-of-fact tone, explaining why their game is better (aka easier aka "more fun"). The reasons we have to hate riot games go on and on and on.
Now onto the game itself. I will compare dota2 and LoL, since they are the same genre and well, the second is a clone of the first. Comparing sc2 and LoL is a bit harder since they aren't even the same genre (so i won't). + Show Spoiler +
LoL and DotA(2) are very different games. One of them came first, the other one copied and heavily modified it using a design philosophy that has been admitted to be aimed at the most massive audience possible (anti-fun, burden of knowledge, etc) ie, the lowest common denominator. As a game, this is a logical business practice especially for a minimum system requirements free game. For a spectator (e)sport this is counter intuitive. A fundamental ingredient in creating an exciting viewer experience for highly competitive sports is the distance between the average players ability and the elite professional players ability. The "wow holy shit i could never do that that's amazing" moments during spectating, as hotbid called it in an interview. However, it's also important for your game as a spectator sport to have this be readable. It needs to be demonstrable by the players during the match in an intuitive and readable way that they are much better then you, in order to have that "wow" moment and for you to admire those players. In dota's terms, they need to be able to make "big plays". LoL progamers are better then the majority audience of the game, however, LoL's design philosophies (the same ones that have made that audience so big) prevent it from being regularly made clear how much better they are during professional matches. This leads to the game being a bad spectator sport (relatively) but a good game (for the people who are into that kind of thing, people often dubbed "casuals" etc). Their can't be ONE best player in the world, their cant even be one player who can make a significant impact on the game through only his own skill (except in a few cases). This is because of the way the game is designed, the kind of player that riot wants, DOESN'T want one player during his match to be able to walk all over him by being better, because being worse then someone ISN'T FUN. Are you starting to see why trying to design a game with everyone having the most fun possible all the time doesn't lend itself well to it also being a competitive spectator sport?
Lets take a look at some examples. It is a fact that just as LoL ported over the general framework of DotA (3 lanes towers barracks/inhibitors ancient/nexus creeps/minions jungle etc) it has also ported over to various degrees complete heros/champions, or more commonly, individual hero/champion abilities. To be clear, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS, i'm just clarifying it as a fact before i use it to compare the two games.
Lets look at annies ultimate, Tibbers. Tibbers is one of many semiports of a dota ability, in this case warlocks ultimate, Chaotic Offering. Both of these ultimates summon a temporary extra unit under the players control after a short cast time. On arrival in a small radius there is a stun affect. After the initial cast and stun, the unit remains alive until killed for a short period of time and can be controlled independently from the players primary hero or champion. In LoL, multiple unit control is nearly non existent. Therefore the game doesn't stress micro, multitasking etc, things rts fans recognize as very high skillcap mechanical devices. Annie's ultimate can only be controlled by holding down a modifier key (default ALT) and clicking locations for it to move and attack while holding down this key. LoL doesn't use the tried tested and proven rts mechanics such as mouse boxing and control groups. Annies ultimate cant move too far away from her without being teleported back. The multitasking potential here is strangled to near non existence. at least 80% of the power of the spell is in the initial damage and stun during tibber's arrival, its basically just a novelty that she summons an external unit at all. DotA was built in the warcraft 3 engine, so you can assign control groups and select different units by making boxes with the mouse. Warlock can use his golem to walk in front of enemies and spam stop, blocking their path and slowing them down (all the while also controlling his main hero) as in this example with another multiple unit control hero, Chen he can split himself and the golem to farm multiple locations, requiring him to last hit at two different locations on the map, etc etc.
"Ok fine, the mechanical skillcap of the game is lower + Show Spoiler +
(if you are such a fanboy that you dont believe the kind of difference between the two games I have just demonstrated translates into a mechanical skillcap disparity between the two games, just stop reading here, you are hopeless).
BUT THE GAMES ARE DIFFERENT AND LOL STILL HAS AT LEAST AS HIGH OF AN OVERALL SKILLCAP IF NOT HIGHER!~!~!~!~!~!" + Show Spoiler +
Really? Can you list a single difference between the two games that contributes to LoL even possibly having a higher skillcap then dota? Everything LoL has that dota doesn't is there for the convenience, for the simplicity, for the ease of use and overall fun gameplay for the casual player. Everything DotA has that LoL doesnt was removed because it was too hard (either to understand, to use, etc). Riot designs its game towards people that think abilities like bloodseekers rupture are too difficult to understand, as admitted by zileas. No. The reason the game is so popular is because its aimed at a mass (casual) audience that doesn't want to be confronted with champions equivalent to meepo or chen that the majority of the playerbase just downright wont be able to play without tons of hours of practice or extensive rts background. Its an audience that just wants to sit down and have a good time with friends playing a free game, not one that wants to come together on a site like teamliquid and discuss the best ways to work hard for hundreds of hours mastering the game, or how amazing x player's control is..
By riots design philosophy BW, sc2, and DotA and Dota2 as well as even the entire FGC and games like Street Fighter are all poorly designed. They all feature too much "burden of knowledge" "Anti-Fun" etc, and in this sense LoL isn't an esport (or competitive spectator sport) at all..
On February 05 2013 16:01 kylols wrote: Let me preface this by saying i don't hate LoL, LoL players, etc. People will play the game they like, its perfectly reasonable. I have played near a thousand games of LoL across multiple accounts, probably equal of games of dota2, and i have watched obscene amounts of hours of sc2.
The part of this that's missing (for me) in claiming that Dota2/SC2 fans shouldn't ever bash lol or have a negative attitude towards it is RIOT GAMES. + Show Spoiler +
Riot games has bought ipl, mlg, and iem into "exclusivity contracts" that say they are not allowed to feature any other games of the "moba genre". By riots definition (since they invented the term) this means Dota2. If i love dota2, which according to the people making arguments for LoL it should be our right to love whichever game we do, then this is really bad for me. The three biggest and best western esports organizers can't feature the game i love, because riot has more money and deems it necessary to employ such a shady business tactic that inargubaly serves only to make them more money at the expense of other games AKA esports as a whole. "yeah lol well its a business lol get over it". Ok, well if its just a business and we should all sabotage "esports" at every chance we get if it means helping our game get bigger, then why the fuck are you telling me not to bash lol and that i should band together to support all esports? There are numerous other examples of riot doing things like this, some of which have been mentioned in this thread. Riot Pendragon abruptly shut down DotA-allstars.com without warning. A site which had hours and hours of community discussion, guides, etc centered around DotA. Now every page of it redirects to an advertisement for pendragons new game, which is a free to play clone of DotA. LoL didn't have a fraction of even DotA's playerbase yet, but that alone was already enough for people who loved DotA to hate riot games. As someone else pointed out in this thread, think if nazgul without warning tommorow made every page of teamliquid redirect to an ad for his new game, a ripoff of sc2. Without warning, all your guides and resources and discussion down the toilet, for his profit. Awhile after this, riot tried to claim that they owned DotA. A number of people who uploaded wc3 DotA content to youtube were warned by youtube to take it down, because Riot Games Inc had claimed copyright. Morello and Zileas like to post on their forums bashing DotA's design in a completely matter-of-fact tone, explaining why their game is better (aka easier aka "more fun"). The reasons we have to hate riot games go on and on and on.
Now onto the game itself. I will compare dota2 and LoL, since they are the same genre and well, the second is a clone of the first. Comparing sc2 and LoL is a bit harder since they aren't even the same genre (so i won't). + Show Spoiler +
LoL and DotA(2) are very different games. One of them came first, the other one copied and heavily modified it using a design philosophy that has been admitted to be aimed at the most massive audience possible (anti-fun, burden of knowledge, etc) ie, the lowest common denominator. As a game, this is a logical business practice especially for a minimum system requirements free game. For a spectator (e)sport this is counter intuitive. A fundamental ingredient in creating an exciting viewer experience for highly competitive sports is the distance between the average players ability and the elite professional players ability. The "wow holy shit i could never do that that's amazing" moments during spectating, as hotbid called it in an interview. However, it's also important for your game as a spectator sport to have this be readable. It needs to be demonstrable by the players during the match in an intuitive and readable way that they are much better then you, in order to have that "wow" moment and for you to admire those players. In dota's terms, they need to be able to make "big plays". LoL progamers are better then the majority audience of the game, however, LoL's design philosophies (the same ones that have made that audience so big) prevent it from being regularly made clear how much better they are during professional matches. This leads to the game being a bad spectator sport (relatively) but a good game (for the people who are into that kind of thing, people often dubbed "casuals" etc). Their can't be ONE best player in the world, their cant even be one player who can make a significant impact on the game through only his own skill (except in a few cases). This is because of the way the game is designed, the kind of player that riot wants, DOESN'T want one player during his match to be able to walk all over him by being better, because being worse then someone ISN'T FUN. Are you starting to see why trying to design a game with everyone having the most fun possible all the time doesn't lend itself well to it also being a competitive spectator sport?
Lets take a look at some examples. It is a fact that just as LoL ported over the general framework of DotA (3 lanes towers barracks/inhibitors ancient/nexus creeps/minions jungle etc) it has also ported over to various degrees complete heros/champions, or more commonly, individual hero/champion abilities. To be clear, I DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THIS, i'm just clarifying it as a fact before i use it to compare the two games.
Lets look at annies ultimate, Tibbers. Tibbers is one of many semiports of a dota ability, in this case warlocks ultimate, Chaotic Offering. Both of these ultimates summon a temporary extra unit under the players control after a short cast time. On arrival in a small radius there is a stun affect. After the initial cast and stun, the unit remains alive until killed for a short period of time and can be controlled independently from the players primary hero or champion. In LoL, multiple unit control is nearly non existent. Therefore the game doesn't stress micro, multitasking etc, things rts fans recognize as very high skillcap mechanical devices. Annie's ultimate can only be controlled by holding down a modifier key (default ALT) and clicking locations for it to move and attack while holding down this key. LoL doesn't use the tried tested and proven rts mechanics such as mouse boxing and control groups. Annies ultimate cant move too far away from her without being teleported back. The multitasking potential here is strangled to near non existence. at least 80% of the power of the spell is in the initial damage and stun during tibber's arrival, its basically just a novelty that she summons an external unit at all. DotA was built in the warcraft 3 engine, so you can assign control groups and select different units by making boxes with the mouse. Warlock can use his golem to walk in front of enemies and spam stop, blocking their path and slowing them down (all the while also controlling his main hero) as in this example with another multiple unit control hero, Chen he can split himself and the golem to farm multiple locations, requiring him to last hit at two different locations on the map, etc etc.
"Ok fine, the mechanical skillcap of the game is lower + Show Spoiler +
(if you are such a fanboy that you dont believe the kind of difference between the two games I have just demonstrated translates into a mechanical skillcap disparity between the two games, just stop reading here, you are hopeless).
BUT THE GAMES ARE DIFFERENT AND LOL STILL HAS AT LEAST AS HIGH OF AN OVERALL SKILLCAP IF NOT HIGHER!~!~!~!~!~!" + Show Spoiler +
Really? Can you list a single difference between the two games that contributes to LoL even possibly having a higher skillcap then dota? Everything LoL has that dota doesn't is there for the convenience, for the simplicity, for the ease of use and overall fun gameplay for the casual player. Everything DotA has that LoL doesnt was removed because it was too hard (either to understand, to use, etc). Riot designs its game towards people that think abilities like bloodseekers rupture are too difficult to understand, as admitted by zileas. No. The reason the game is so popular is because its aimed at a mass (casual) audience that doesn't want to be confronted with champions equivalent to meepo or chen that the majority of the playerbase just downright wont be able to play without tons of hours of practice or extensive rts background. Its an audience that just wants to sit down and have a good time with friends playing a free game, not one that wants to come together on a site like teamliquid and discuss the best ways to work hard for hundreds of hours mastering the game, or how amazing x player's control is..
Its a fundamentally different audience then BW, sc2, and DotA and Dota2 as well as even the entire FGC and games like Street Fighter and in that sense its not an esport (or competitive spectator sport) at all.
On February 05 2013 15:54 Kergy wrote: Love you Doa, I'm completely honest when saying The Champions Winter was my favorite esports tournament of the last year. The finals were just amazing, hope you stay with OGN for a looong time
By the way, I'm always surprised when people argue that LoL is easy to get into. To me, games like Dota 2 and LoL are incredibly difficult to get into, because they have heroes+spells+items in the hundreds, and combined with possible builds and hero matchups, the game elements that you need to study and memorize goes in the thousands. Like, if you get all spells and stats from Starcraft, you can fit them all in probably 10% of the heroes of one of these monster-clusterfuck of information games that are Dota 2 and LoL.
So, I'd rather think the main reason for popularity is the aggressive expansion and promotion, working with local organizations, with influential media giants (such as OGN), with infrastructure for gamers (such as internet/gaming clubs); and maybe most of all - low enough system requirements that allow huge (and skillful!) populations to flock to your game, instead of these other heavier games. I really don't see the contents of LoL being at the center of its popularity. It's really more on the mediocre side by all accounts, let's be honest, but with the described methods, you can ram even worse of a game down the throats of millions that don't have access to very good PCs.
Finally, let me mention that having thousands game elements does not make your game deep. It makes it broad. And actually prevents it from ever getting too deep, because the development in breadth will just overcome the development in depth. Browder talked about that in an interview - that Starcraft from the beginning is intended to not have too many game elements, in order to allow for more depth. Think of Starcraft as Rubik's Cube - from only 3x3x3 blocks you can get an incredibly complex algebra(s) of possibilities. Think of LoL and Dota 2 as Magic The Gathering - where there are more cards than one could remember in their life time, and it's always possible to just be beaten by some card you see for the first time. It's a matter of taste what you like more - one game will develop your constructive and creative thinking, the other will develop your memory.
On February 05 2013 16:29 figq wrote: By the way, I'm always surprised when people argue that LoL is easy to get into. To me, games like Dota 2 and LoL are incredibly difficult to get into, because they have heroes+spells+items in the hundreds, and combined with possible builds and hero matchups, the game elements that you need to study and memorize goes in the thousands. Like, if you get all spells and stats from Starcraft, you can fit them all in probably 10% of the heroes of one of these monster-clusterfuck of information games that are Dota 2 and LoL.
Im going to assume this is your impression and that you haven't extensively played LoL and Dota2. What your saying would be true, if anyone had to account for every single possible variable within the game at once. However, this is far from the case. Memorizing all those variables might be required to master the game (it isn't) but you are discussing it being "easy to get into". There is tons of overlap in the abilities across the 100+ champions in the game, and you dont even need to know what your opponents abilities do to have fun in casual matches when you are just "getting into the game".
In LoL, during the first 10+ minutes its just you in your lane. If you are at top lane or middle lane, its just you and one other person, with some creeps, and the threat of a jungler. So a rough list of the variables you are accounting for is :
Where is the enemy jungler? Where is my enemy lane opponent? Where is my creepwave, where is his? What items and abilities do both of us have?
The amount of variables is much fewer then you are making it sound, and the impact that they have as well as their variety is also much lower then you seem to realize (people always pick not only the same type of characters and send them top lane, they also actually just pick the same ones from a pool of 15ish for example, as well as them always buying the same starting items and item builds with them. Even in a 5v5 fight, all you actually have to account for is the the position of enemy champions and what their potential is to effect you, this usually involves only their abilities because the majority of items in LoL only give passive bonuses, so they don't even need to be considered.
Finally, let me mention that having thousands game elements does not make your game deep. It makes it broad. And actually prevents it from ever getting too deep, because the development in breadth will just overcome the development in depth. Browder talked about that in an interview - that Starcraft from the beginning is intended to not have too many game elements, in order to allow for more depth.
This is again true, however both LoL and sc2 technically have more then thousands of variable elements, its just about their variety and how much importance they individually have. If you study LoL at a competitive level it is NOT suffering from being too complex, i promise. (Although it is suffering, as my post before this one outlines).
On February 05 2013 16:40 kylols wrote: There is tons of overlap in the abilities across the 100+ champions in the game, and you dont even need to know what your opponents abilities do to have fun in casual matches when you are just "getting into the game".
Yeah, I don't really get this principle, perhaps I'm old, from another gaming generation etc. In Starcraft (the classic one), first you get a campaign, divided by 3 - one for each race. Each racial story introduces the units of that race one by one, in separate missions that emphasize that unit's strengths and abilities. This approach is older than Starcraft - you can find it in Dune 2, for example.
In games like LoL, you don't have a campaign. Instead, you have only limited pool of heroes at first. Which I think is great for newcomers - having 100+ heroes to choose from at once from the beginning would be overwhelming and confusing. You'd rather start with a few heroes, study them well, and only then expand to more heroes. But the difference is - in Starcraft, you will not be met from the start with all the advanced units of all races. You'd have some marines vs some lings. Then also some vultures vs also some hydras etc. In LoL or Dota 2, you'll immediately face all kinds of heroes as enemies, and you won't know jack shit about what they do. That's not something I consider an easy learning curve.
For example, you mention thinking about getting ganked ("the threat of a jungler") - but you won't even know what heroes are gankers, what type of move they have to be careful about. In fact you won't know which enemy hero is a jungler too.
On February 05 2013 16:40 kylols wrote: There is tons of overlap in the abilities across the 100+ champions in the game, and you dont even need to know what your opponents abilities do to have fun in casual matches when you are just "getting into the game".
Yeah, I don't really get this principle, perhaps I'm old, from another gaming generation etc. In Starcraft (the classic one), first you get a campaign, divided by 3 - one for each race. Each racial story introduces the units of that race one by one, in separate missions that emphasize that unit's strengths and abilities. This approach is older than Starcraft - you can find it in Dune 2, for example.
In games like LoL, you don't have a campaign. Instead, you have only limited pool of heroes at first. Which I think is great for newcomers - having 100+ heroes to choose from at once from the beginning would be overwhelming and confusing. You'd rather start with a few heroes, study them well, and only then expand to more heroes. But the difference is - in Starcraft, you will not be met from the start with all the advanced units of all races. You'd have some marines vs some lings. Then also some vultures vs also some hydras etc. In LoL or Dota 2, you'll immediately face all kinds of heroes as enemies, and you won't know jack shit about what they do. That's not something I consider an easy learning curve.
For example, you mention thinking about getting ganked ("the threat of a jungler") - but you won't even know what heroes are gankers, what type of move they have to be careful about.
When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
On February 05 2013 17:18 GolemMadness wrote: When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
Which is why DotA-likes wont ever be as good spectator sports as Starcraft. If you have never played starcraft, but the toss player gets out his colossus, you can tell that its more powerful and important then the stalker-sentry-zealots that he has had so far. It's huge. When it starts shooting sweeping lazers at the bio composition of the terran player, you can start to get the idea that its good against bio. When Doublelift buys an infinity edge, uhh.. what the fuck is an infinity edge? Did the caster just say "Doubelift picks up his IE, that will help alot" You have no idea whats happened, that doesn't excite you. Totalbiscuit talked about this recently. A good esport shouldnt require you to have played it enough to be familiar with everything for you to enjoy watching it.
On February 05 2013 17:18 GolemMadness wrote: When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
Which is why DotA-likes wont ever be as good spectator sports as Starcraft. If you have never played starcraft, but the toss player gets out his colossus, you can tell that its more powerful and important then the stalker-sentry-zealots that he has had so far. It's huge. When it starts shooting sweeping lazers at the bio composition of the terran player, you can start to get the idea that its good against bio. When Doublelift buys an infinity edge, uhh.. what the fuck is an infinity edge? Did the caster just say "Doubelift picks up his IE, that will help alot" You have no idea whats happened, that doesn't excite you. Totalbiscuit talked about this recently. A good esport shouldnt require you to have played it enough to be familiar with everything for you to enjoy watching it.
You way oversimplify watching SC2 to a newcomer.
In your example, why arent the sweeping lazers shooting up and hitting the vikings? Why can the vikings hit the Colossus - i thought vikings could only hit air? What the hell is thermal lance? What exactly does +1 do?
Every spectator sport (yes that includes starcraft) requires you to be familiar with the mechanics. Like what is the difference between a fumble and an incomplete pass in American Football? Knowing why getting an IE, thermal lance, and a fumble recovery is good is critical to most people's enjoyment of a game.
On February 05 2013 17:18 GolemMadness wrote: When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
Which is why DotA-likes wont ever be as good spectator sports as Starcraft. If you have never played starcraft, but the toss player gets out his colossus, you can tell that its more powerful and important then the stalker-sentry-zealots that he has had so far. It's huge. When it starts shooting sweeping lazers at the bio composition of the terran player, you can start to get the idea that its good against bio. When Doublelift buys an infinity edge, uhh.. what the fuck is an infinity edge? Did the caster just say "Doubelift picks up his IE, that will help alot" You have no idea whats happened, that doesn't excite you. Totalbiscuit talked about this recently. A good esport shouldnt require you to have played it enough to be familiar with everything for you to enjoy watching it.
Ok, but that doesn't make it a BETTER spectator sport. You could argue that it makes it harder to get into, but given that it's already far more popular, that isn't really an issue. Also, as for your example: it's a sword, so you assume it makes you do more damage. Which it does.
On February 05 2013 17:18 GolemMadness wrote: When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
Which is why DotA-likes wont ever be as good spectator sports as Starcraft. If you have never played starcraft, but the toss player gets out his colossus, you can tell that its more powerful and important then the stalker-sentry-zealots that he has had so far. It's huge. When it starts shooting sweeping lazers at the bio composition of the terran player, you can start to get the idea that its good against bio. When Doublelift buys an infinity edge, uhh.. what the fuck is an infinity edge? Did the caster just say "Doubelift picks up his IE, that will help alot" You have no idea whats happened, that doesn't excite you. Totalbiscuit talked about this recently. A good esport shouldnt require you to have played it enough to be familiar with everything for you to enjoy watching it.
You way oversimplify watching SC2 to a newcomer.
In your example, why aren't the sweeping lazers shooting up and hitting the vikings? Why can the vikings hit the Colossus - i thought vikings could only hit air? What the hell is thermal lance? What exactly does +1 do?
Every spectator sport (yes that includes starcraft) requires you to be familiar with the mechanics. Like what is the difference between a fumble and an incomplete pass in American Football? Knowing why getting an IE, thermal lance, and a fumble recovery is good is critical to most people's enjoyment of a game.
You oversimplify what i said. In every spectator sport, yes that includes Starcraft, the viewers enjoyment will increase proportionately to the amount of details they understand. However, the minimum for LoL (and dota-likes, as much as i like dota2) is too high. You can explain the very minimum to someone who's never played a pc game and they have a good chance of being interested in a professional sc2 match (similar to the hypothetical scenario i gave). You cant explain the minimum of LoL to someone and expect them to understand ANYTHING they are watching. Colossus coming out is exciting, someone getting their IE before the enemy adc doesn't mean anything to someone who doesn't PLAY the game. LoL is desgined to be played, and competitions were tacked on as something for the playerbase to watch. SC is viewed exclusively by a massively larger percentage of its audience. They don't play, they just watch. This is not a coincidence, the games were deliberately designed like this.
On February 05 2013 17:18 GolemMadness wrote: When you first start the game, there is no jungler. I'd say that the game is harder to watch from a beginner's perspective simply because you'll have no idea what any of the heroes do and team fights just look like a bunch of random stuff all over the place, but as far as playing goes, it's very easy to get into.
Which is why DotA-likes wont ever be as good spectator sports as Starcraft. If you have never played starcraft, but the toss player gets out his colossus, you can tell that its more powerful and important then the stalker-sentry-zealots that he has had so far. It's huge. When it starts shooting sweeping lazers at the bio composition of the terran player, you can start to get the idea that its good against bio. When Doublelift buys an infinity edge, uhh.. what the fuck is an infinity edge? Did the caster just say "Doubelift picks up his IE, that will help alot" You have no idea whats happened, that doesn't excite you. Totalbiscuit talked about this recently. A good esport shouldnt require you to have played it enough to be familiar with everything for you to enjoy watching it.
Ok, but that doesn't make it a BETTER spectator sport. You could argue that it makes it harder to get into, but given that it's already far more popular, that isn't really an issue. Also, as for your example: it's a sword, so you assume it makes you do more damage. Which it does.
It makes it a better spectator sport and arguably worse game. They are different things. I think its a better spectator sport and a better game, but that part is opinion. LoL is designed + Show Spoiler +
(from the beginning, if you have followed LoL they never planned to have competitions and they didn't have replays for the longest time)
to be a fun game for anyone to play. It wasn't (and isn't) designed to be a spectator sport. Its viewed by its players. Starcraft 2 was designed to be watched by an audience that wouldn't necessarily play the game, ever. Do you undertstand the distinction between the two terms as im using them?
edit : also just to carry out the argument, infinity edge doesn't have the clarity for the spectator that the collosus has. Its only visually represented in the players item slot. The spectator (as opposed to the player) probably wont see that, and if he does see the little icon and does make out that its the sword, its still incomparable to the visual clarity (for the spectator) of the colossus. Its huge.
What most people's grief with LoL is that its predacessor is/was Dota. Dota as an eSport offers more in the way of skill than LoL ever has and isn't much harder to pickup. Gaming traditionalists are aggrieved that a game with a lower skill ceiling is simply accepted as the most popular eSport because its free.
Don't get me wrong, LoL is a fun game to bash around with - constant team fights and no denying - but if you really want to watch and admire the very best in the A-RTS business, it's definitely dota.
On February 05 2013 18:35 cozzE wrote: What most people's grief with LoL is that its predacessor is/was Dota. Dota as an eSport offers more in the way of skill than LoL ever has and isn't much harder to pickup. Gaming traditionalists are aggrieved that a game with a lower skill ceiling is simply accepted as the most popular eSport because its free.
Don't get me wrong, LoL is a fun game to bash around with - constant team fights and no denying - but if you really want to watch and admire the very best in the A-RTS business, it's definitely dota.
LoL is far less free than DotA or Dota2 (either you spend a lot of time farming IP for champions or spend real money to buy them vs... you know, dota). It's also not "accepted as the most popular esport," it IS the most popular esport at the moment due to a combination of marketing, invite bonuses, easier gameplay, etc.
sc2 is harder by a mile but LoL is more popular. sc2 is also a pretty bad game guys. LoL wins out much to the chagrin of the TL goers and tbh LoL is a lot more casually fun where as in a sc2 game nothing but your BEST play will do. i can chill and mess around and dominate on league
Mechanics do matter, so does decision making and planning. To say that they don't is ridiculous and this thread is just what it sounds like, self-serving apologetics
It's interesting that about 3-6 months ago well established SC2 casters/personalities started tweeting and blogging about how they are casually playing/learning LOL.
DJ Wheat, Doa, Catspajamas, ItmeJP and Mr.Bitter to name a few. They tried to ease people into it, like parents trying to slowly break it to their kids that they are getting a divorce. They do it with care and sensitivity, trying not to leave us betrayed. "It's not your fault!"
And like in DoA's blog here, they always fall back on similar statements:"It's good for Esports!" "SC2 and LOL don't compete against each other" "SC2 and LOL can co-exist". But, I find that argument so disingenuous. The mutual success of both games is good for the Esport broadcasting companies, not necessarily for the fans of a particular Esport game.
These casters are making a career move, they are hedging their bets. They and the companies employing them recognize the profitability and growth of LOL. Business is business. You don't see any LOL casters picking up SC2 gigs do you?
I'd rather have people like DoA simply state "I've also begun casting LOL because my superiors want cross-game appeal and I will make more money." At least then he's being direct and honest.
Stop with the Kumbaya stuff. LoL and SC2 compete for player's time, viewership, and money. That is a fact. The genre stuff you talk about is inconsequential.
I don't know if this discussion is still going on, but maybe a perspective from player who played dota for 3 years, then starcraft 2 for 2 years and now League for a year and a half can add something.
League definitely takes less skill to play than Dota and Starcraft, anyone who says otherwise is being delusional. But that doesn't make League a worse game. It just means what it means. I have much more respect for Sc2 pros and Dota pros than I do for League pros, but that doesn't mean that League pros are inferior players or something - they're doing their best to play their game and that's worthy of respect, too.
We live in a world that's based around profits, so, (un)fortunately, the most popular game is the one that gets the most money and that has the most promising future. This is League of legends. I can understand why it makes people like you (dota and starcraft players) angry, because you feel (and rightly so, it's your opinion after all) that your game is superior. That's why when you see players playing this "inferior" game and get more money and more fame and a more promising future than you, you get angry. This is understandable. But there really is no need to start hating on it publicly. All that shows is a certain immaturity of not being able to overcome the shortcomings of your game (popularity is a valid attribute). Another thing you could be blaming is the viewers. But it's not really their fault for liking something else than you, is it?
This is why I think there is no need to wage wars between the communities. The games are different and cater to to different people. Maybe Blizzard/Valve should have made different decisions to seize the popularity that Riot has. I don't see how this is the fault of the players who play and enjoy the game, nor the viewers who watch it. "People should like the game that I do and everyone who doesn't is an idiot" is incredibly immature and is the basis of most bashing towards League. The fact that League takes less mechanical skill than the other games is completely and utterly irrelevant - you're just using that argument because it's true and because you feel like it's important, but in the end, it's just something you tell yourself to feel better about the less popular game you're playing. There is no need to talk about it.
Being one of two people who plays SC out of group of friends who only play LoL the only thing that I don't really like about the LoL community is, personally they don't seem to care for esports, only the LoL scene. Me and my buddy who plays SC with me try to watch others games too, We are both big fans of CS, i've starting watching DOTA2 recently and he's getting into fighting games (mainly street fighter) and during IEM we were both wathcing world of tanks just to see what it was like. We try to get them watching over stuff but their not interested and the common response we got for them is either 'Why would I watch that when I could be watching LoL' or 'That community just hates Lol so I don't want to watch that rubbish game' I'm pretty sure that this isn't the case generally and Its a pretty unique situation but Its all I have to go off. .
I like how this has happened again on The Pulse, after they were quite backhanded about TLS (BroodWar) as well. Do they really feel that threatened by anything that isn't SC2 that they have to put out this kind of crap? There's some insecurity there.
Why do you guys think bw/sc2 is tough? It's so easy clicking on targets in these games that they offer no reward for my aiming skillz. Try to snipe someone on quake, now that's a challenge.
On February 05 2013 20:22 OutlaW- wrote: I don't know if this discussion is still going on, but maybe a perspective from player who played dota for 3 years, then starcraft 2 for 2 years and now League for a year and a half can add something.
League definitely takes less skill to play than Dota and Starcraft, anyone who says otherwise is being delusional. But that doesn't make League a worse game. It just means what it means. I have much more respect for Sc2 pros and Dota pros than I do for League pros, but that doesn't mean that League pros are inferior players or something - they're doing their best to play their game and that's worthy of respect, too.
We live in a world that's based around profits, so, (un)fortunately, the most popular game is the one that gets the most money and that has the most promising future. This is League of legends. I can understand why it makes people like you (dota and starcraft players) angry, because you feel (and rightly so, it's your opinion after all) that your game is superior. That's why when you see players playing this "inferior" game and get more money and more fame and a more promising future than you, you get angry. This is understandable. But there really is no need to start hating on it publicly. All that shows is a certain immaturity of not being able to overcome the shortcomings of your game (popularity is a valid attribute). Another thing you could be blaming is the viewers. But it's not really their fault for liking something else than you, is it?
This is why I think there is no need to wage wars between the communities. The games are different and cater to to different people. Maybe Blizzard/Valve should have made different decisions to seize the popularity that Riot has. I don't see how this is the fault of the players who play and enjoy the game, nor the viewers who watch it. "People should like the game that I do and everyone who doesn't is an idiot" is incredibly immature and is the basis of most bashing towards League. The fact that League takes less mechanical skill than the other games is completely and utterly irrelevant - you're just using that argument because it's true and because you feel like it's important, but in the end, it's just something you tell yourself to feel better about the less popular game you're playing. There is no need to talk about it.
well written post that i happen to agree with
though i still wish league had a lot of things when i play it
On February 05 2013 20:22 OutlaW- wrote: I don't know if this discussion is still going on, but maybe a perspective from player who played dota for 3 years, then starcraft 2 for 2 years and now League for a year and a half can add something.
League definitely takes less skill to play than Dota and Starcraft, anyone who says otherwise is being delusional. But that doesn't make League a worse game. It just means what it means. I have much more respect for Sc2 pros and Dota pros than I do for League pros, but that doesn't mean that League pros are inferior players or something - they're doing their best to play their game and that's worthy of respect, too.
We live in a world that's based around profits, so, (un)fortunately, the most popular game is the one that gets the most money and that has the most promising future. This is League of legends. I can understand why it makes people like you (dota and starcraft players) angry, because you feel (and rightly so, it's your opinion after all) that your game is superior. That's why when you see players playing this "inferior" game and get more money and more fame and a more promising future than you, you get angry. This is understandable. But there really is no need to start hating on it publicly. All that shows is a certain immaturity of not being able to overcome the shortcomings of your game (popularity is a valid attribute). Another thing you could be blaming is the viewers. But it's not really their fault for liking something else than you, is it?
This is why I think there is no need to wage wars between the communities. The games are different and cater to to different people. Maybe Blizzard/Valve should have made different decisions to seize the popularity that Riot has. I don't see how this is the fault of the players who play and enjoy the game, nor the viewers who watch it. "People should like the game that I do and everyone who doesn't is an idiot" is incredibly immature and is the basis of most bashing towards League. The fact that League takes less mechanical skill than the other games is completely and utterly irrelevant - you're just using that argument because it's true and because you feel like it's important, but in the end, it's just something you tell yourself to feel better about the less popular game you're playing. There is no need to talk about it.
Very well written, there's no doubt that all of this, in the end, is about money. And in a business such as esports, money comes through popularity, and nothing else. Sad but true.
Personally, I hope Valve can take the heat of being the less popular game, grow a smaller but loyal fanbase (players won't leave, the games are just too different), and continue to give us Dota 2 for many many years and a healthier scene than it ever was with WC3 Dota, which was frankly a gigantic mess . I feel Valve are doing a fine job so far, we'll see when the game's released, right now Steam's popularity has skyrocketted with the large influx of beta keys gifted to everyone by Valve.
On February 05 2013 19:18 thezanursic wrote: LoL is SC2 without the mechanics that are required to play the game well. The game knowledge is just as important.
Hey DoA, I watched one of your LoL casts the other day (Frost v. Sword), and I thought you did an amazing job. You were hilarious.
My biggest complaint with watching LoL is that high level teamfights all involve everyone popping all their spells within a few seconds, so there is a ton of stuff happening on the screen and it's hard to tell who is doing what to whom (even with a working knowledge of the game). But that just means that the caster's role is very important in explaining the mess that's on the screen. Those finals that you casted reminded me of the excitement that people used to have in Starcraft 2 when it was first getting really big, and there is definitely something badass about a crowd being that pumped up.
Finally, don't let the haters get you down. When you were doing IPL, I always saw you as the analyst, and I thought you were great in that role. But in LoL, while you appear to have learned the game pretty well, you have definitely raised your skills as the hype man, humorist and play-by-play guy.
The "debate" about LoL vs SC2 is as stupid as Call of Duty vs Battlefield and 360 vs PS3. Noone wins at the end, and instead of fighting we should just be grateful that we have so many good things to enjoy. I don't like LoL, because I don't enjoy playing it, but I don't need to assert my position by attacking people who like LoL. Instead of saying that you dislike about something, put forward what you like about something else.
On February 05 2013 21:05 Steveling wrote: Why do you guys think bw/sc2 is tough? It's so easy clicking on targets in these games that they offer no reward for my aiming skillz. Try to snipe someone on quake, now that's a challenge.
There is a massive difference between "twitch" and "thinking" skill.
I wonder how much your sniping skills can help you against a chess grandmaster.
This post might actually make sense if Riot weren't actively trying to kill comptetive games in it's market read: dota 2 and HoN.
Simply put LoL growth isn't good for everyone, it's not good for 'esports' it's good for Riot and LoL. We've already seen the path Riot wants to take.
Tournament Exclusivity Tried for Team Exclusivity Crippled NADOTA by shutting down dota-allstars, while stealing hero ideas from the very boards (Pendragon so honorable)
Nobody would care if you like LoL or sc2 more, but let's stop pretending the LoL ship is about anything other than making money. Community figures are exploiting it's popularity because of it's stream views.
If Dota2, World of Warcraft or fucking Angry Birds became as popular and watched as LoL we'd have the same fucking post with the new inserted title. Stop trying to justify selling out and trying to make all things equal. Nobody cares if you sold out, go make money, just stop trying to sell us your bullshit.
SirScoots always said, like what you like, but don't hate on other games. While in merit it works, but with Riot in the mix, it's not possible. The bigger and stronger Riot and LoL gets, the worse the outlook is for Dota in the west, plain and simple. Riot's growth doesn't help Dota, just as Dota's growth didn't help HoN. The only difference is Dota didn't actively attempt to strongarm HoN out of the scene, they let the community and players decide.
League of Legends is synonmous with Walmart, sorry that analogy hurt your feelings but it's the truth. It's a mass marketed casual game that strongarmed its way into the scene through it's huge casual fanbase. It's pushed out whatever competition it could while relying on morally questionable tactics. Seems pretty accurate to me.
[edit] I see a lot of people saying popularity is a valuable attribute in deciding a games quality. Well I guess Britney Spears, Taylor Swift, The Jonas Brothers and Justin Beiber are godlike musicians. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. In a community like our own: hardcore and dedicated, esports we should have the power to decide which games have the quality to be taking seriously as an esport. Popularity is a valuable attribute when your endgoal is to exploit said popularity to make money. Popularity says very little about the actual product being offered.
On February 05 2013 21:05 Steveling wrote: Why do you guys think bw/sc2 is tough? It's so easy clicking on targets in these games that they offer no reward for my aiming skillz. Try to snipe someone on quake, now that's a challenge.
There is a massive difference between "twitch" and "thinking" skill.
I wonder how much your sniping skills can help you against a chess grandmaster.
How could you not get the sarcasm, I know I went the extra mile and didn't put a "lol" at the end but still, damn.
I'm referring to these people that deem mobas too easy cause there's barely the opportunity to multitask. That's like messi saying that bball is so easy compared to football cause you never have to dribble with your feet.
On February 04 2013 21:22 Yoshi- wrote: I think the most embarrassing thing about the skill debate is that people use it to justify their decision that are solely based on money
I really, really wouldn't try to sell LoL as something "equivalent" to sc2. You just aren't going to succeed. I think LoL sucks, and it should be my right as a fan to say so. I don't think LoL sucks because I can only like sc2; I think LoL sucks because LoL sucks. I've tried to like the game. I've played it. I've watched it. I can enjoy watching it for like, maybe 1 game tops. Everything about the game sucks (especially the community, dear god), except the graphics. I do like those, and I think the art/graphic designers have done a good job with that considering what they can work with.
Is it a fact that LoL sucks? No, of course not. But I can express it as "fact" if I want, because I think LoL genuinely does suck.
The one point I do agree with you on though is casters and other professionals. They should not be publicly disparaging any game; I don't think that is professional. I wouldn't want to hear baseball casters talk about how terrible they think football is.
However, the fan base shouldn't feel guilty about expressing their opinions about another game. Not for "esports" or any other reason.
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
Both SC2 and LOL are games for the masses, simple to learn, impossible to master, since 100K+ people make it their life. With such a following even a game like pong would be impossible to master. Games such as supreme commander FA are not made for the masses and will always eclipse SC2/LOL in terms of depth since the designers/community have made/balanced the game for the game itself, not for making it the best e-sport, etc.
An SC2/LOL fan calling supreme commander garbage, is like a lady gaga fan listening to Beethoven and calling it garbage. Any self respecting RTS fan needs to grow up at some point rise above the mainstream games, and play something a little deeper. SC2 would be a zero without the marketing and the legacy of SCBW, this is probably impossible for some people to realize.
On February 05 2013 04:24 arb wrote: I dont think anyone believes SC2 is a worthy successor to BW at this point.
Ya fair but you have to be careful how you word posts that demean SC2 on this site.
On February 05 2013 04:21 jalstar wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:17 Sn0_Man wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
Both SC2 and LOL are games for the masses, simple to learn, impossible to master, since 100K+ people make it their life. With such a following even a game like pong would be impossible to master. Games such as supreme commander FA are not made for the masses and will always eclipse SC2/LOL in terms of depth since the designers/community have made/balanced the game for the game itself, not for making it the best e-sport, etc.
An SC2/LOL fan calling supreme commander garbage, is like a lady gaga fan listening to Beethoven and calling it garbage. Any self respecting RTS fan needs to grow up at some point rise above the mainstream games, and play something a little deeper. SC2 would be a zero without the marketing and the legacy of SCBW, this is probably impossible for some people to realize.
What on earth? I thought supreme commander was the most casual game out of the three...
On February 05 2013 04:24 arb wrote: I dont think anyone believes SC2 is a worthy successor to BW at this point.
Ya fair but you have to be careful how you word posts that demean SC2 on this site.
On February 05 2013 04:21 jalstar wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:17 Sn0_Man wrote:
On February 05 2013 04:01 Salazarz wrote: Funniest thing is, SC2 to Broodwar is pretty much what LoL is to original DotA (or worse); yet the very same people who shit on LoL being 'too easy' and 'too casual' are the same people who whine about BW 'elitists' whenever anyone mentions the reduced mechanical requirements of SC2 compared to its predecessor or whatever.
SC2 and LoL, both unfortunate (tragic?) "successors" to great games? I like your analogy. Good thing we have Dota 2 to fix the LoL debacle. Feel bad for broodwar fans myself, but I can't make blizzard into the company it was 15 years ago, more's the pity.
Okay thats a bit tongue in cheek but I really do feel that SC2 isn't really a great successor to BW, and LoL is pretty horrific when compared to Dota. I was never really invested in brood war OR dota1, but it isn't hard to see which games are better in their respective genres.
I won't compare SC2 to LoL because they are different genres, but it's fairly telling that failed sc2 players go to LoL where they can succeed...
And Doa, Riot has shown many many times that they are a scumbag company, with no interest in any "e-sport" that isn't league. I have no problems hating on them or their game. It isn't like we all need to have a hug-fest for games I care about to succeed.
My analogy is better, on most gaming forums there's tons of grognards who hate Brood War for being just a "click-fest with no strategy" and prefer AOE, SupCom, TA, etc. and they use pretty much the same arguments as DotA fans who hate on LoL (though obviously DotA fans incorporate mechanics into their argument as well, non-BW RTS fans concede that point)
Nice way to start a discussion post...
Either way, League is to dota what SC2 is to broodwar. Thats my analogy and I'm sticking with it. The "newer" games are dumbed down, mechanically simple snoozefests, while the older games were diamonds in the rough, masterpieces that happened almost by mistake. Mechanically challenging, infinitely replayable, deep variance in possible gameplay.
Trying to bring some random garbage like supreme commander into it (that game wasn't interesting at all, much less endlessly playable) doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but I suppose everybody sees things differently.
Both SC2 and LOL are games for the masses, simple to learn, impossible to master, since 100K+ people make it their life. With such a following even a game like pong would be impossible to master. Games such as supreme commander FA are not made for the masses and will always eclipse SC2/LOL in terms of depth since the designers/community have made/balanced the game for the game itself, not for making it the best e-sport, etc.
An SC2/LOL fan calling supreme commander garbage, is like a lady gaga fan listening to Beethoven and calling it garbage. Any self respecting RTS fan needs to grow up at some point rise above the mainstream games, and play something a little deeper. SC2 would be a zero without the marketing and the legacy of SCBW, this is probably impossible for some people to realize.
What on earth? I thought supreme commander was the most casual game out of the three...
It is the hardest to understand/learn, because it takes a lot of different concepts and puts them together. Most people who have an opinion about the game were noobs playing the vanilla campaign, which really has little to do with the nline multiplayer game, where all the difficulties come out. Pretty casualin a sense that quantum mechanics is also casual to a small number of people)
I just read this blog post, then looked at some of the comments... wow people hate on LoL so much. I agree with the points DoA has made, and while games and game makers are never perfect, people need to look past the bad things and take in the good.
Hating an entire community based on a few rumors is sickening and unjust, don't even try to defend that.
If you actually believe that it takes the same skill level to play LoL as SC2, even mentally, you're completely delusional. That being said they're both awful competitive games, and basically unwatchable. At least LoL can actually be fun to play with friends.
Some of you guys are so obsessed with the words such as "skill" and "casual," but it is being used so much in the wrong way that the word is becoming just as meaningless as the word "freedom." Basically, those words serve no purpose except to promote or to slander.
On February 06 2013 04:52 PHILtheTANK wrote: If you actually believe that it takes the same skill level to play LoL as SC2, even mentally, you're completely delusional. That being said they're both awful competitive games, and basically unwatchable. At least LoL can actually be fun to play with friends.
The games require different skills, comparing them shows ignorance to both games. Good SC2 players are not good at LoL and good LoL players are not good at SC2. The only exception to this rule is when an SC2 player invests as much time as he did in SC2 into LoL(then he is no longer at the "pro" level of SC2 though) and vice-versa. This is why you cannot compare the "skill-level" of SC2 and LoL. With Dota and LoL an arguement can be made.
On February 06 2013 06:10 Shiragaku wrote: Some of you guys are so obsessed with the words such as "skill" and "casual," but it is being used so much in the wrong way that the word is becoming just as meaningless as the word "freedom." Basically, those words serve no purpose except to promote or to slander.
What does it even mean in a PvP game? "More dificult", "takes more skill"? To win you have to be better than your opponent. It's not any easier to win a game in LoL than it is in SC2. If anything the far greater playerbase in LoL would make it more impressive to be champ, not less. Being the best at something out of 30 million competitors, seems harder than beeing the best out of 1 million. No matter what that thing is.
You could argue that a lacking skill cap means that lesser players can win against more skilled opponents through luck, however the top places in tournaments have a lot more repeat appearences in LoL than in SC2. Add to this the insisting whinings about patchzergs and the like and this point becomes moot as well. I don't believe that it's harder to distinguish yourself as a top player in LoL than it is in SC2.
There isn't really anything objective that makes LoL less worthwhile as an esport than starcraft. It comes down to what you prefer and find entertaining. So please stop this patronizing, trying to make people who like LoL (or any other game for that matter) out as a sorry uninformed bunch of sods. That elitist circlejerk that seems to be going on some places is getting quite sad tbh.
First, I haven't been keeping up with the drama over this thing. But here's my opinion on this post.
I've played countless hours of both games. I enjoy both games. Before I played LoL I did lean towards the general consensus around here that it was an easy, trivial game.
I started playing and reading what good players had to say about that game and was easily able to see there's more going on than it looked like and being good at it is not as simple as it might look at first glance. I agree with that part of DOA's post. I agree there should be much less hate towards LoL and other Moba games from the sc2 folk.
However I think it's obvious that these games are leagues apart in what it takes to master the fundamentals of the game and actually compete with others who have mastered them. Nearly every part of SC2 is much more difficult, often even an order of magnitude more difficult, in my view. If someone thinks they are comparable I'd agree with some post above me, they are delusional. I'd add they are probably delusional about more than just video games as well.
DOA is an intelligent and reasonable fellow, I don't believe he is actually saying they are comparable in that sense anyway. In fact it looks like he's admitting they are not, and just encouraging folk to enjoy both games and every game cause they're all fun. I particularly like his point about pro-gaming being a beautiful thing but I'd extend that to watching the best in anything get it done.
After reading a few comments, why do a few members of the community constantly associate "Anti-Fun" and "burden of knowledge" for League of Legends?
To be honest and fair, without knowledge, you will get nowhere in this game but towards the so called "elo hell". This fictitious claim that Riot says "burden of knowledge" leads to anti-fun is so far from the truth that it doesn't make any sense. The consistent release of new patches, updates, champions, items etc. proves to us that you need to have knowledge of the game to be good otherwise you get left behind. So before make another claim that League of Legends is easy to play with the argument "burden of knowledge" and no "anti-fun" mechanics, consider the logic.
I don't quite get the point of this thread. DoA is bad at sc2 and LoL, I think he should just be happy he's being allowed to cast either game (still don't understand why him and cristo are casting the OSL.. 2 play by play casters.. really?). Becoming defensive about either games skill is laughable when he isn't good at either of them. The result is a thread filled with pointless comments about which game is "harder", you really can't compare sc2 to lol, skill rewards much more in sc2 than it does in lol considering lol is a team game (and therefore "team skill" rewards more).
Very well said. About 7 years ago I watched silently as a large gaming community (10,000+ members) I helped run fell apart due to players of different games failing to take your logic - bashing the others' game of choice created an irreversible friction and inevitable collapse. I'm sure we were one of many.
All of us are gamers / eSports fans first and foremost. Why have we not learned the lessons of the past?! The stakes are higher now - corporate dollars are pouring in to the thing we love. Embrace Gaming - pro, competitive, or casual. Love the game you love, shout it from the rooftops - spread awareness of our wonderful rich gaming landscape - but don't whatever you do, fool yourself and others into thinking you can bash players of other successful, popular games, without having a destructive effect on gaming and eSports generally.
If you don't like something, don't pay any attention to it. We will all feel the benefit of it. Love gaming. Love gamers. However they choose to compete.