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Why are they so bad?
The whole concept of Dota has always been a team effort. It's 5 v 5 meaning you need to communicate and work with 4 other players to defeat 5 other players. So why is it no one every wants to work with anyone? No one talks except for the Russian's, maybe a few Spanish people on the microphone, people only come in to help against another enemy team hero when they think they have a chance to kill it themselves and get the gold/xp. Occasionally you get the English speaking guy that just calls everyone a noob because he's getting ganked in the off lane.
I'm starting to get really frustrated with public games as even in the one's that I win in, its usually because either I'm carrying the team because I went like jungle Ursa or 2-3 players are playing/que'ing together and dominate a lane to carry the team to victory. There is little to no team aspect going on, with people picking hero's that look cool or they like, why is it every 4 out of 5 games someone goes sniper mid and then leaves after going 0-3 vs TA? Am I just unlucky or is this the norm?
I love Starcraft because its a 1 v 1 situation where you can't blame anyone else but yourself for losing or even winning a game. And the majority of team games you are playing with someone you know, usually a practice partner that 1 v 1's you and thought going 2 v 2 would be fun for a chance. So you already got communication and now your working as a team.
I'm just starting to not even want to play Dota by myself because it's literally always the same thing. If I wanted to play single player I would load up SC2 or even something like Fallout.. But pub games are killing Dota for me, gotta find a team I suppose..
Doesn't really help The International is going on and making me crave to play more Dota then ever >_> Guess I don't need to worry about while the stream is up..
#rant
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Make some friends and queue up together. I'm pretty shit at dota but some of the things I see in solo queue make me want to rip my eyes out, not to mention that someone abandons almost every game. Queuing up with friends is alot more rewarding in that they will tell you how to fix problems rather than FUKIN NOOB KILL YOURSELF.
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i think the best way is to find like minded people who want to improve aswell. inhouse leagues is a good place to start or join up with TL inhouses. if you can find like minded friends then great, but my friends are terrible and they get worse as we play more because they can't be bothered learning to play AND i can't even say "FUKIN NOOB KILL YOURSELF" to them.
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play the TL inhouses (channel TLIH), its much more fun than pubs.
pubs tend to be really annoying when everyone is actling like they are dendi or so.
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Honestly, once you get up to a certain level, they aren't that bad. Most of the time I can argue with them reasonably well, they do what they're supposed to, and often are even willing to support if the team needs it. If I say that I can play a good puck, they many times let me go mid with puck instead of rage picking invoker that they cant play.
However, you must clear five barriers of trash games before you get to a point where most of the games you play you have decent communication and teamplay. That, or queue with friends
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
A lot of people don't play it as a team game, that's why. You're able to win on your own by taking a snowballing hero and doing just that; snowballing.
If you're not finding it fun, the suggestions here are good, either join TLIH or find 4 or 5 friends.
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I have a lot of pub games where I will be the hardest carry on the team and still have to buy courier/wards/dust and the like. Then my team (the supports) will usually say, "fkn noob carry only has drums (or whatever) 20 minutes in."
Just take it in stride; sometimes you will get lucky enough to play with people who use their brains. Its also nice when you win in spite of how poorly your team worked together if you are just on that day.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On August 08 2013 22:23 crayhasissues wrote: I have a lot of pub games where I will be the hardest carry on the team and still have to buy courier/wards/dust and the like. Then my team (the supports) will usually say, "fkn noob carry only has drums (or whatever) 20 minutes in."
Just take it in stride; sometimes you will get lucky enough to play with people who use their brains. Its also nice when you win in spite of how poorly your team worked together if you are just on that day. If you're the carry and no one else buys wards it shouldn't be too much of a problem to buy them yourself, it's only 200 gold every 6 minutes (or 12 if you're just warding one rune spot) and the price of someone (even you) dying due to no wards is worth around 400 gold difference between the teams, so it pays for itself already.
I doubt any of us are at the level where we farm perfectly so another 200 gold won't hurt.
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On August 08 2013 23:45 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 22:23 crayhasissues wrote: I have a lot of pub games where I will be the hardest carry on the team and still have to buy courier/wards/dust and the like. Then my team (the supports) will usually say, "fkn noob carry only has drums (or whatever) 20 minutes in."
Just take it in stride; sometimes you will get lucky enough to play with people who use their brains. Its also nice when you win in spite of how poorly your team worked together if you are just on that day. If you're the carry and no one else buys wards it shouldn't be too much of a problem to buy them yourself, it's only 200 gold every 6 minutes (or 12 if you're just warding one rune spot) and the price of someone (even you) dying due to no wards is worth around 400 gold difference between the teams, so it pays for itself already. I doubt any of us are at the level where we farm perfectly so another 200 gold won't hurt.
Observer Wards only cost 150 gold, do you even support.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On August 08 2013 23:55 Vaelone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 23:45 Targe wrote:On August 08 2013 22:23 crayhasissues wrote: I have a lot of pub games where I will be the hardest carry on the team and still have to buy courier/wards/dust and the like. Then my team (the supports) will usually say, "fkn noob carry only has drums (or whatever) 20 minutes in."
Just take it in stride; sometimes you will get lucky enough to play with people who use their brains. Its also nice when you win in spite of how poorly your team worked together if you are just on that day. If you're the carry and no one else buys wards it shouldn't be too much of a problem to buy them yourself, it's only 200 gold every 6 minutes (or 12 if you're just warding one rune spot) and the price of someone (even you) dying due to no wards is worth around 400 gold difference between the teams, so it pays for itself already. I doubt any of us are at the level where we farm perfectly so another 200 gold won't hurt. Observer Wards only cost 150 gold, do you even support. I always say 200g when I give that piece of advice, no clue why. (I generally play solo offlane -cm though lol)
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Its simple why they're so bad: too many people want to be, and think they are, the hero. And look down on their own team rather than trying to work together.
I have a theory that FPS games are largely to blame for this. Cooperative competitive multiplayer largely started up with FPS games. Your Counter Strikes, Call of Duties, Halos, Quakes, Unreal Tournaments etc etc. What FPS games have in common is that in a pub server your individual skill can carry you. Even if the entire rest of your team is terrible and only good for bullet shields if your play ability is godly you may well be able to just win every game all by yourself. In professional games, of course, teamwork is really important but in a pub if your skills are better you will probably win.
Few supposedly cooperative multiplayer games really require teamwork. This has fostered a perception that teamwork is simply a "bonus" and not a crucial aspect of the game.
This is totally anathema to ARTS games like LoL and DOTA2. Because of the different playstyles and the importance of teamfights and so on teamwork is paramount, but too few people realise it. They don't think of themselves as being on a team, they think of themselves as playing on one side with a bunch of people with the enemy on the other; and although those two things sound similar they're most definitely not.
An example: Just think of all of those people who demand mid should be ganking all the time. They don't stop to think about the other person's situation. They don't stop to think about the matchup, or about where the lanes are, or anything like that. They're not thinking about whats best for the team, they're thinking about what is best for them and they just demand ganks because thats what they think should be happening.
In short? Too many people thinking "how can I win this game" and not enough thinking "how can my team win this game".
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On August 09 2013 00:40 -Celestial- wrote: In short? Too many people thinking "how can I win this game" and not enough thinking "how can my team win this game". A great example of what the latter attitude can REALLY do was the TI3 game between TongFu (Dire) and Fnatic (Radiant), UB Game 1.
Fnatic pretty much opted for a draft core we've seen from Alliance before (Weaver/Tree/CM) without fully understanding what makes it strong (the global presence between tree armor+cm aura, more specifically coming from a defensive trilane because it's offensive capabilities are utter trash). The TongFu midlane (Puck vs fnatic Viper) got completely and utterly annihilated. It's a hard matchup from the start but on top of that Viper got pooled AND he had Tree armor on his side. Botlane was an evenish matchup early on (Bat vs fnatic Prophet).
It was completely irrelevant that the Puck was a combined 50-60 (!) cs behind the Viper within the first 10 minutes. fnatic had so many resources bound in winning that one lane (2 supports without any kind of income) while TongFu was able to easily develop their safelane carry AND two supports on top of that. Past a certain point those 3-4 levels advantage on supports translate into way more pressure on midlane than fnatic could handle and that in combination with an already shaky botlane matchup turned the game into a complete stomp for TongFu.
That game is a prime example of the trades that need to be made to win a game with ease. In your average pub game (or without that kind of understanding of the game in general) that Puck would have raged because "he" was losing the game for his team. His team didn't give a fuck about helping him early on. He just had to sit there, suck it up and hope that his team does something useful in the meantime. Or worse, he just had to hope that whoever had the gameplan for this game knew what he was doing.
Whenever someone is in a really shitty situation try to look at it more objectively. What resources did the enemy need to commit to bring him into that situation? Is there a way to abuse their lack of resources elsewhere? Are you currently getting more than they are out of the situation in a way that's not entirely obvious? Well developed supports are a prime example of the latter.
PS: After his supports got rolling having ~15cs within the first 10 minutes translated into a 13 minute Blink Dagger.
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@topic: dont really share your experiences. But i write a lot in games and ping a lot which seems to encourage others to do the same. Besides i queue often with a friend of mine, so i have somebody whom i know i can play with. I play a lot of support and try to communicate with the other who buys what and when, so we can share the burden on our non-existent income (one buys wards, the other tries to get e.g. mek). So according to my experience starting the communication really makes it into a team game, as many players seem to flinch from the idea to start making that into a team game. After talking to a friend of mine who played lots of dota 1 i think it's a dota 1 thing, cause he has the feeling that "trying to communicate with others to play as a team is not worth the try" in pubs.
And yes, occasionally somebody is a sore looser who calls his team noobs. Apparently some people still need to blame others when they loose, even though it's really obvious that dota is a game that is won and lost together.
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I was like that, when I started playing. I always instalocked Bloodseeker and called mid no matter what my team picked. I can understand newer people or guys who play this "casually" (like 1 hour a week or so). They usually dont watch pro games or skip the drafting scene. Also they dont know every hero and their skills, what roles there are to play etc.
But for the guys, who obviously invest more time into this game then the "casual" player, I can feel you. I honestly dont understand whats goin on in their mind, when you picked 4 heroes like Qop, SB, CM and Centaure and then that guy picks BH and calls "solo top lane" To me Dota, next to society's opinion about Weight Lifting (...Protein Drinks = Steroids, lifting weights will crush your bones, only dumb people go into gym ..), just shows how so many people today are fu***** ignorant. Unable to find or even accept their own mistakes, believe every shit they read or heard once.
Let me give you an imaginary hug
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It's pretty normal that people pick heroes they want to try and they aren't good at. They don't understand the matchups either which turns into feeding. So they end up having a bad time and rage quitting. Like the poster above said people don't put any value on the team aspect of arts games. Players like the OP also become disenfranchised to that concept and start playing selfishly. If you can't beat em then join em? The only way to avoid this situation is to play with friends or join a clan until you can get enough wins to not be stuck with 3-4 bad players but maybe 1-2. :D
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pick a mid hero mute ur entire team and go mid
buy ur own wards at 6 minutes if no ones buying them
gl
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It's totally your elo.
I am only in normal mm... was in high for a few games, but I guess I am in high normal.
If I were to play with good players all the time I would be in high i bet (played at tl channel a couple times... you guys rock).
But if I solo queue. We always have a hard carry (sometimes 2).
2 or 3 supports
semi carry.
chicken is always bought
wards about half the time.
People know their roles. And these are just randoms.
It's totally that you are in a bad skill bracket... but the hard thing is to get to a better skill bracket you have to either solo carry (i like doom qop) (or zeus and just rack up kills). Or you have to play with friends and win.
After you get in a higher skill bracket people will start knowing what they are doing (even in randoms)
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Dota 2 is a team game and punishes mistakes, a pub is unorganized and 1 person making mistakes can cause the other team to snowball. Pubs also mix two types of people because Dota has no ladder
a) The person who wants to play casually, do fun builds, fuck around and watch netflix on his other monitor while playing b) The person who thinks he is the next Dendi and this pub is only a step on his ladder to fame
Take away APEM, mix these two people together in matchmaking and watch the world burn, this is why Dota pubs are pretty awful sometimes, there isn't really a custom game scene so there is little separation between the competitive player and the casual player.
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