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I created this thread to see if people are really being entertained by SC2 tournaments in their current form.
Specifically, I want to see how players feel about high-level tournaments versus how spectators see it. And I would like to start a discussion on this. I don't play Starcraft II competitvely. Before HotS, the game was a lot more entertaining to watch because players used different strategies.
HotS really seems to have permanently broken the balance and variety of the game. (strictly from a watcher's perspective)
I say this because I am extremely tired of watching Bomber, Polt, and Taeja. Every single tournament recently has been dominated by these 3 players.
Bomber seems to use a dirty, cheap strategy of pulling SCV's to "end it now" every.single.game. And it doesn't affect his economy because he can just call in mules? Is this supposed to be balanced?
Using workers to fight and win dirty may be a "brilliant, legitimate, winning strategy" but it is DREADFUL to watch. Especially when he's doing this game after game, series after series, tournament after tournament. The only way Bomber won't win a tournament is if Taeja or Polt wins it instead.
I never watch mirror matches, least of all TvT. I am rapidly losing interest in watching this game.
I would like to hear from competitors and spectators alike. Is watching Bomber use SCV's to win FUN? Is this something that should be considered IMPRESSIVE?
Are there many nuances that I'm completely unaware of, and in fact, Bomber isn't doing the exact same thing every game?
Is starcraft II at high levels more like poker than a real RTS?
...finally, it seems as though region lock could go a long way towards solving the hegemony of this game by a handful of Korean Terrans who constantly win using MMMM which gets extremely boring to watch.
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What the hell I suggest you to watch Korean tournaments (GSL Code S, PL) as well as some IEMs and Dreamhacks, and also to check the Premier Tournaments winners page on Liquipedia. You'll see that saying Bomber, Polt and Taeja dominated every single tournament is plain wrong. Also I honestly doubt Bomber pulls SCVs vZ and T. Might be wrong on that though. edit : hell, why am I even bothering, that thread will probably get closed fast (or moved to blogs as it happened)
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United States22154 Posts
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Watch proleague there is more diversity in strategy there. I think dark recently came up with corruptor style in ZvT. Also forgg demonstrated mass hellion viking style. Liquid hero also did some fun builds vs polt. Not sure what your talking about but i do agree scv pulls is a big problem
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Well it was great when Pigbaby won that one tournament using Tempests (which was such an innovative way of punishing Bomber's ultra-aggression), but that seems to be an exception, or I should aberration, rather than the norm.
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Well, if you have a problem with the following things not showing diversity:
- TvP: Bio, Ghosts and Vikings vs. Gateway units, colossi and templar - TvP: various protoss allins (aka Great Book stuff) - TvP: scv pulls
- TvZ: mech - TvZ: bio vs. ling baneling muta - TvZ: roach hydra vs. bio/biomech
- ZvP: ling upgrades into ultralisks - ZvP: muta/curropter - ZvP: various Great Book stuff - ZvP: roach/hydra timings - ZvP: nydus play - ZvP: roach/hydra/viper midgame - ZvP: infestor/viper/hydra/ultralisk/swarm host late game
- TvT: early game shenanigans - TvT: marine tank vs. marine tank - TvT: mech vs. mech - TvT: bio vs. mech - TvT: lategame air vs. mech/mines
- PvP: colossus vs. colossus wars - PvP: early game shenanigans - PvP: colossus vs. tempests - PvP: chargelot/archon/immortal midgame
- ZvZ: lingbling early game - ZvZ: 6/8/9/10 pools - ZvZ: ling allins - ZvZ: muta vs. muta - ZvZ: muta/ling timings vs. mass roach midgame - ZvZ: roach vs. roach - ZvZ: swarm hosts/brood lords lategame
You should probably leave it and watch another game that is more entertaining for you. Almost every single one of your arguments is invalid, I just took 5 minutes and listed a shitload of different strategies. The only thing where you are rather right is TvP: there is a complete absence of mech. But you see some players mix in hellbats and mines in to their composition. The matchup can include immortal busts, void ray busts, lategame tempests, it can include robotics timings or fast third bases - but all you want is see mech being viable vs. protoss, well - no way.
If your problem is "Bomber, Taeja and Polt rule NA" you should probably follow the advice of others in this thread: watch GSL. Watch WCS EU. Watch GSL/WCS Korea. Try to get a glimpse of the taiwanese and chinese scene, im sure that breaker ("breakertv" here on tl) will give out as much information about great to watch events as he possesses.
Use some TL.net features: the liquibets are a fun betting tool where you can try to use your knowledge of the scene for fun. You can join the Fantasy Proleague once proleague starts again.
Or, you could just follow BasetradeTV on twitch, they are alway covering minor and major events (ofc, some include Bomber, Polt and/or Taeja). It's one thing to say "whoa fuck it no diversity" - but to me it seems like you're at a consumer's stand: you're waiting for the fun to come to you. Just go out and grab it! in starcraft, it's all fun and games (excluding LR, The_Templar and Scarlett rants, and ofc Liquibets and FPL), and there's noone forcing you to watch anything.
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It's interesting, a lot of people (ie: mostly those who are bad at macro) believe that by removing some or all of the mechanical requirement of starcraft you get more strategies and that "outsmarting" your opponent will be what decides matches. In reality, the opposite is true. No competitive game or RTS can exist without a mechanical requirement of some sort, or the game devolves into copycatting the best strategy and some sort of rock paper scissors guessing game. If you can't out-execute your opponent then you can't consistently beat him. It is very difficult to out-innovate your opponents every time because in today's environment coaches, practice partners, replay analysis, etc your strategies will get analyzed and you will lose, eventually.
Added mechanical ceiling actually adds strategical options. An example would be Bisu in SC1, his DT-corsair strategy isn't new or even super innovative, but it never worked in the proscene before him because nobody could pull it off because of its so ridiculously high skill ceiling. The same is true for a lot of the openings Flash did, he was just so good at positioning and defense that he can take greedy expansions. Remove the mechanical requirements and you remove a lot of the potential innovation and strategy.
If SC2 was a more rewarding game towards better players, you'd see a lot more diversity in strategy and player styles. As it is right now, it's stupidly easy for basically every player to execute the strategies that everyone is forced to play on the surface. There are a lot of subtle differences that are very noticeable to players who know what to look for but otherwise you're not wrong.
The problem for me personally is that even though everyone's doing the same builds and styles of play, it never feels like one player can really stand out to an audience. When a really good player plays the same build order, it should feel like "wow I know I've seen this literally thousands of times (!) but this guy/gal is showing what you can REALLY do with it!" There's a somewhat popular quote that if you removed all the player IDs from casts, or change them all to barcodes nobody would be able to tell who is who, or notice any real gameplay differences.
IMO the commentators has to fill in the gap for the lack of perspective and game knowledge for the non player audience, but most casters don't know shit about individual players' playstyles and preferences. You should never feel like "아... another generic terran strategy wins this is boring." You should be able to understand why one player is winning a tournament with his own flair before balance whining anyways.
I remember Apollo asked about ForGGs playstyle at dreamhack and no one could give an actual answer. It was all sematics and flimsy bullshit. ForGG... probably the most repetitive player on the face of the Earth... (Hellion Banshee every game was ForGGs trademark... in WoL... when he was on oGs... He's been doing 3CC builds 4ever now -_-)
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Alas at least its a little better than MOBAs. Every game they go on for an hour killing things each other and then flashy spells!!!
But even then the casters provide so much on the spot analysis it doesnt get as old as SC2 casters providing the same one liners, phrases, and worn out summations of the gamd.
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