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For those of you who did not read the first post of my blog to see what it is all about you can read it here.
Learning My First Build Order
Since I really did not have a build order down very well I decided to watch a replay of progammers, and try to emulate a build order. I decided to try Bisu's build order that he uses against Stork during the first round of the IEF Finals (you can download the replay here). The map that the game is played on is Longinus and both players go for a tech build. The build that Bisu uses goes something like this:
8 Pylon 10 Gateway – Send out scout 11 Gas 13 Zealot 15 Pylon 17 Cybernetics Core 18 Zealot 22 Pylon 23 Dragoon 26 Range 27 Dragoon 30 Robotics Core 31 Gateway – Stop probe production 31 Dragoon 33 Pylon – After this warps in resume probe production 34 Dragoon 36 Dragoon 38 Shuttle 40 Pylon 40 Observatory 41 Dragoon 43 Dragoon 45 Robotics Support Bay 47 Observer 48 Reaver 48 Dragoon
After this you get another reaver, and you can either lay down your natural or put down another gateway and continue to macro. I really don't believe it is very important which one you do first, either the gateway of the nexus. I've been putting down the nexus if I feel that I am in a safe position but if I feel I am at risk of an attack I put down the gateway.
After going through many matches against the computer and people on iCCup (more on that later) it appears that the point of this build is to "safely" tech up to reavers to harass the base. I believe that the observer is timed just right so that any DT rushes/drops can be easily stopped. The reaver can be used to harass your opponents base or to make a push and easily secure your natural.
It seems though that when I have executed this build an early two gate zealot push that later transitions to goons can easily counter this build. Even when I have blocked off my ramp with two zealots and whatever goons I have the superior amount of forces seem to be able to push right through. It could be that I'm executing the build too slowly just because of my low APM but I'm not sure.
I've been starting from the very beginning the GOMTV Intel Classic Season 3 and I have to say its an entertaining way to learn SC. SuperDanielMan (I think thats how he spells it) and Tasteless, while they do get off track and tell funny and entertaining stories/observations, they also say what they think the players could have done better and often give insight into what counters what in the most effective manner.
In the series of Rage vs perfectman Tasteless commented that during PvP all the build order have "hard counters" and that it is really important to deceive and scout your opponent. I'm starting to think that I build I have done is countered by a two rate rush build. I'll still be trying to get it down faster though, so we shall see.
New iCCup Season
Before I start out about my new iCCup experience I just want to say that all the people who are talking trash about the iCCup mods should really stop. After browsing the iCCup website when the server was down in between seasons I realize that I would be just as frustrated as the mods. People are constantly flaming the mods because they are not perfect but the thing is that most of the stuff they have to sift through are just stupid comments (ex. One guy asked in the comments of a news posting when the new season started when the information was clearly in the post). Also alot of people just don't follow the rules that are supposed to streamline the process and remember these mods do this out of their own free will. They spend hours trying to cover every complaint which is impossible to do and I'm pretty sure most of them would like to play starcraft, just like you and me. So if you're one of those people please stop.
Ok with that out of the way, I decided to play some games today since it was the start of the season. Since everyone is reseated to D, I got crushed. I played a 300+ APM Korean and he completely owned me with some nice goon micro and out macroed me (partly due to the fact that he went two gate and I went with my one gate tech build). I looked at his profile and last season he was only D+ with over 100 games played. A 300+ APM Korean thats only at D+, wtf? This is going to scare me off from playing during korean hours for awhile (anyone want to inform me when most of the koreans play for when I get daring?). I am currently D- now because of losses... great.
My APM is improving though. During the last game that I played on iCCup today I pushed myself really hard since I did not want to lose again. My average APM was 98 Thats quite an improvement since I was around 60 to 70 three to four days ago. I think this is partly due to the fact that I have been playing hotkey/multitasking maps during the time iCCup was down.
Anyways that has been my last couple days of Starcraft. If anyone wants to see the replays of the games I got crushed in or the multitasking maps I've been using just post it and I will edit it into this blog post. Also to the people that say Python is a noob map shut up. If it were really a noob map then the pros would not be playing it. Sorry you dont get to try your contain on it, go play Destination instead.
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I recommend you listening to day[9] his last (epi9) podcast.
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Hey Flow, read your previous blog and this one. I was in the same boat about a year ago, apm around 80 at D reaching for C-. Took me about half a year but I got there eventually. I hope your journey fares well and is an enriching experience.
Just a word of advice: when I try learning new build orders, I usually go through it on single player first a few times and get the order of my tech straight first. I'm a zerg player, so that's probably where this stemmed from, but I don't follow food count to the exact, rather I try to learn the timing of the tech buildings and why they are important. That way, even if I'm dealing with harass from my opponent and my production was off for a bit, my tech isn't delayed because I'm trying to realign myself with the food count of the build order. This will also help put you in the mood to think about why you need the tech buildings when you do rather than mechanically following out a recipe that may or may not be the optimal for the game you're currently playing in.
Anyways, best of luck to you.
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On June 03 2009 03:21 Ziph wrote: I recommend you listening to day[9] his last (epi9) podcast.
I've listened to them already, thanks for the suggestion though.
On June 03 2009 03:23 aznmathfreak wrote: Hey Flow, read your previous blog and this one. I was in the same boat about a year ago, apm around 80 at D reaching for C-. Took me about half a year but I got there eventually. I hope your journey fares well and is an enriching experience.
Just a word of advice: when I try learning new build orders, I usually go through it on single player first a few times and get the order of my tech straight first. I'm a zerg player, so that's probably where this stemmed from, but I don't follow food count to the exact, rather I try to learn the timing of the tech buildings and why they are important. That way, even if I'm dealing with harass from my opponent and my production was off for a bit, my tech isn't delayed because I'm trying to realign myself with the food count of the build order. This will also help put you in the mood to think about why you need the tech buildings when you do rather than mechanically following out a recipe that may or may not be the optimal for the game you're currently playing in.
Anyways, best of luck to you.
Yeah I honestly do not know the build order by food count, I just thought it would be the best way to show it in a blog post. I know what needs to be built in what order and the general purpose for everything. And yes I have ran through this build multiple times in a match against the computer, probably 10 to 20 times. Thanks for the tip though.
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i'm a 250 apm D+ (barely d+ (2002 pts)), it doesn't matter. some pro gamers have 150 apm
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On June 03 2009 04:54 Tehinf wrote: i'm a 250 apm D+ (barely d+ (2002 pts)), it doesn't matter. some pro gamers have 150 apm No they don't.
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wheres your proof that ALL progamers have above 300 apm
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Name some of the progamers that have 150......I doubt it.
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On June 03 2009 05:10 Tehinf wrote: wheres your proof that ALL progamers have above 300 apm you got me
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16927 Posts
The best person I can think of at 150 apm is Kwark, #2 UK. He's nowhere near progamer level.
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kouros was a semi-pro or amateur, he had about 170 apm in his earlier years.
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doesn't savior have low apm for a pro-gamer? his apm is like 200+ definately though. :\
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IIRC, i remember reading about how some pro-gamers that use protoss have 150 apm, can't remember
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On June 03 2009 05:10 Tehinf wrote: wheres your proof that ALL progamers have above 300 apm because 150 is totally 300
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It's pretty easy to be bad with high apm, but it's near impossible to be really good with low apm.
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D-C koreans with 300apm are fucking funny, they spam so much that they forget to macro. B-A is different story tho
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When i first started playing online (after 7 years playing single player and computers, lol) i had i around 60-70 APM for my first 50 or so matches. Then i improved, and moved up to about 100-110. i guess for a P player that is quite sufficient - and if you can just get the standard BOs down and some gamesense, i belive that you could hit d+ easily. As for me - i was a low d+/high d for about 2 seasons and 250 games, just couldnt get any higher. What you really forget about when your at that level (at least - thats what i did) was to MACRO. so i started to concentrate on getting my hotkeys right, and my macro down (4sh5sh6sh7sh8sh, 4sz5sz6sz7sz8sz, 4sd5s6s7sd8sd ect). REALLY helped me out!
Anyways, what i am trying to say is that i suspect that you are not concentrating enough on your macro. I get beaten alot by 100 APM protoss (im a steady c- now) that concentrate all their APM on macro, and then does a timing push (that doesnt need to be all that timed at this level). this is IMO more important than getting BOs down, at least all the way up to 48(!) supply.
just my 2 cents
GL
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I've been playing SC for like 11 years now and I've never had a build order go passed like 25, its pretty ridiculous because not every game is the same, you can't just assume the psi count will always be correct.
Like if i were to 5pool you on that build, you might lose probes, or have to make more zeals/canons; fucking it all up, what then?
Best thing for a new player to do is just keep the probes built, keep the money spent, keep the psi in check.
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On June 03 2009 06:41 b3h47pte wrote: doesn't savior have low apm for a pro-gamer? his apm is like 200+ definately though. :\
I heard savior is actually one of the slowest progamers out there. I heard the lowest apm a korean progamer has is 200.
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I'm a new player (and poster) as well, despite having followed the starcraft scene for well over a year now. This blog is quite inspiring actually, because iCCup kind of scares me to be honest - I don't expect to play against anyone who isn't serious about the game (and already quite good). I've been playing zerg mostly, but as far as that build order looks, I had always thought that build was an extremely multi-tasking-heavy, high-APM oriented build. If you're ever looking for a fellow D player to practice with, my iccup ID is "vitamin.water" Also, if I played more on iccup (i usually play on East) my record would probably be much much lower - those games are only vs one of my friends for fun
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