I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
konadora Singapore. May 30 2010 02:34. Posts 44476
It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
Last edit: 2010-05-30 02:51:17
... Knowmsayin'?
konadora Singapore. May 30 2010 02:55. Posts 44476
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote: It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
what
OPPAI GUNDAM STYLE
awu25 United States. May 30 2010 03:00. Posts 1999
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
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Random_0 United States. May 30 2010 03:22. Posts 968
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
These are two games I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure he used it more though:
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Remember that the late game tech switch to tanks/vultures that Flash has used on several occasions was also pioneered by fantasy.
It's funny, because terran are switching it up so rapidly nowadays, and while Flash is the poster boy for this, it's fantasy who's still doing the experimenting.
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pretty good post; flash does have the mechanics to pull off just about anything.
first game was a big mindgame; jaedong expected valks because a lot of zergs mass mutalisks on triathalon since the hatcheries are essentially islands. flash used the build much more effectively on a more appropriate map, and the timing of his push allowed him to secure map control despite not completely killing jaedong.
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HeadhunteR Argentina. May 30 2010 04:02. Posts 1226
Flash pulling his scvs (and pretty much all of his expo ones) long before they were needed in game 3 was really smart. He knew Jaedong was going all in, so he knew he just had to live, and he wasn't going to lose that bunker no matter what.
At first I thought he was overreacting a bit- but I suppose this is why I always lose to stupid stuff like that.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
These are two games I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure he used it more though:
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.
Agreed, and not to mention Fantasy is not only a player who used it alot but also the one who initially started anti muta, valk, build. (Well, boxer started in savior vs boxer superfight, but thats just Boxer being Boxer, millions years ahead of his own time)
shinjin United States. May 30 2010 04:52. Posts 398
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote: It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
what
wtf...fantasy's builds are genius and innovative.... flash just took it to the next level because hes baller like that
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
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SuperArc Austria. May 30 2010 02:25. Posts 7781
, which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Singapore. May 30 2010 02:34. Posts 44476
ArvickHero May 30 2010 03:37. Posts 9378
