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| r_con United States. August 20 2011 02:30. Posts 357 | Profile Blog # |
as a starter, i want to go on a little rant.
Esports is bigger than it ever has been, almost any night I can watch a stream or a VOD of something having to do with esports. Onemoregame.tv, day9, various starcraft pro gamers streaming, tournaments, showmatches, TONS of entertainment. In addition to starcraft every couple of weeks team spooky is streaming a SSF4 tournament, I can watch LoL, and Dota.
We have all this content, essentially more content than we can possibly consume. Basically, in terms of consumers, its hard to ask for more, we get to watch the stuff we love at almost any time.
This blog stems from the EG drama that has happened, and the comments of many users of TL, and their dislike of EG or Huk.
What do you want esports to become?
Alot of the comments seemed, shortsighted, EG is a business, and they represent something far bigger than corporate greed. They represent that E-sports may actually be making someone some money. This isn't FXO, where someone really passionate is taking a loss simply because he loves the game, this is EG, and they are making money off hiring Huk, Puma, and getting a team house.
This isn't a passion project for them, this is business, and they represent if E-sports is going somewhere besides just pure passion and love of the game.
But peoples aversion to EG puzzled me, "stealing" huk, being slippery with Puma, the milkis bullshit, the InControl thing.
EG is one of the few organizations that i can say without a doubt is more than a passion project, its not exploiting anyone, its not taking advantage of anyone, and its helping the players be batter by taking them to korea. EG represents to me, what the rest of e-sports should aspire to be. EG has grown, and shrunk with e-sports, if e-sports grows, so will EG, if it shrinks, so will EG. They are not throwing out money they don't have, they are safe, they are a real business.
In korea, SC2 is like a half business in my eyes, they have lots of passions, and the best way to train, coaches, and team houses. But i don't want e-sports to be kids not getting paid for working extremely hard. I want e-sports to be more than raw passion driving the players, money helps.
From a consumers perspective i have everything, but i want the players to have more. And EG to me represents what players should deserve. You can hate them all you want, but they treat their employees fairly and honestly depending on the market.
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 villageidiot August 20 2011 02:47. Posts 352 | Profile # |
So i think that Call of Duty Black Ops should have something like global league, it would be so much easier to follow players and teams. I think it would bring more stability in growing scene.
Well esports should be more flexible and should react to folks demands. Esports should try to lobby the government for earlier retirement and healthcare.Last edit: 2011-08-20 02:54:16 |
| | Good night sour prince. You won't be missed! |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:03. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
I typed out like 3 different answers to this blog, and deleted them all, because I just can't argue with someone who thinks so differently about things on a fundamental level. It's like we're not really speaking the same language to be honest.
A few corrections though, based on facts alone:
- EG doesn't make the players better. They systematically make them worse. At least in Starcraft 2, people who manage their team are completely clueless and all the decisions they made were detrimental to the development of all the players they have.
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:05:51 |
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| -Frog- United States. August 20 2011 03:08. Posts 472 | Profile # |
On August 20 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.
What are those salaries like again? I searched but couldn't find any official numbers.
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| jupidar United States. August 20 2011 03:10. Posts 224 | Profile # |
| I doubt the secondary players on EG get paid, if they do it wouldn't be a lot in my mind. |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:13. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:08 -Frog- wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.
What are those salaries like again? I searched but couldn't find any official numbers.
There are none, there are rumours going anywhere between 60k and a low six figures. There's also what Idra said about tournament prize money not being that significant with the salary he has at EG. And obviously the money HuK got was described as "life changing".
TL itself is a team where players have very solid salaries and they have made an improved offer to HuK as well but couldn't get anywhere close to what EG offered. I can't imagine a lot Code S or Code A being paid anywhere near the same amount of money, or even top foreigners, let alone mediocre foreign players like Idra who aren't even foreign tournament favorites. Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:14:27 |
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| -Frog- United States. August 20 2011 03:16. Posts 472 | Profile # |
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
EG is a team with lots of sponsors, true. But they also have a lot of teams to support, many more than the average SC2 pro team. Therefore their sponsor money has to be spread out amongst all of their pros.
All we know for certain is that EG is willing to pay Huk more than Liquid is willing to pay Huk and that EG is willing to pay Puma more than TSL is willing to pay Puma.
You sound like you have a lot of EG hate built up and it's causing you to make statements based on half truths and rumors. A bad habit to say the least. |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:18. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense.
You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though. Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:18:48 |
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| r_con United States. August 20 2011 03:18. Posts 357 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:
I typed out like 3 different answers to this blog, and deleted them all, because I just can't argue with someone who thinks so differently about things on a fundamental level. It's like we're not really speaking the same language to be honest.
A few corrections though, based on facts alone:
- EG doesn't make the players better. They systematically make them worse. At least in Starcraft 2, people who manage their team are completely clueless and all the decisions they made were detrimental to the development of all the players they have.
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.
They have made mistakes, but they understand that. They accepted those mistakes and are taking action by sending their better players to korea. Without EG would all of the EG players be better? if anything they would be the same, i doubt being on EG effected the level of play negatively.
Other point, idk, no one has released salaries, but i hope they are getting paid fairly. Overpaid, we don't know, no one has a clue about the situation of the average salary of pro gamers.
Also, people are basing pay off skill: no its marketability/ team finance.
Jaedong didnt get nearly as much as bisu, despite being the better player. Nada was making tons of money even when he wasn't a top top player.Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:22:23 |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:21. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:18 r_con wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:
I typed out like 3 different answers to this blog, and deleted them all, because I just can't argue with someone who thinks so differently about things on a fundamental level. It's like we're not really speaking the same language to be honest.
A few corrections though, based on facts alone:
- EG doesn't make the players better. They systematically make them worse. At least in Starcraft 2, people who manage their team are completely clueless and all the decisions they made were detrimental to the development of all the players they have.
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.
They have made mistakes, but they understand that. They accepted those mistakes and are taking action by sending their better players to korea. Without EG would all of the EG players be better? if anything they would be the same, i doubt being on EG effected the level of play negatively. Other point, idk, no one has released salaries, but i hope they are getting paid fairly. Overpaid, we don't know, no one has a clue about the situation of the average salary of pro gamers.
How do you know they understand that? No recent move tells me they do to be honest. They're not sending anyone to Korea - Idra is kinda going, but then it turns out he's really not, he'll just spend one or two months being neither here nor there.
Their players wouldn't be better? Idra WAS already better, he was de facto the best foreigner, now every segment of his play is underwhelming. DeMusliM was considered to be among the top 5 European players. Incontrol was one of the top American players as well for Brood War.
As for the other thing, we have plenty of clues. I'm sure they're being paid "fairly" - but whether it's fair to the scene, teams who can't compete with such contracts, and other (better) players... I doubt it. At the very least you should at least understand the meaning of "life changing".Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:24:17 |
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| -Frog- United States. August 20 2011 03:22. Posts 472 | Profile # |
On August 20 2011 03:18 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense. You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though.
Well of course you can MAKE the statement. Whether it makes you seem presumptuous or possessing an agenda or not is another story.
In this case it's clear that you're content to trash on EG without knowing any facts.
One last thing. A player's worth to an organization is much more than the tournament results they bring in. A player like Idra - who is a great player - is also incredibly valuable because of his popularity for his personality as well as his gameplay. As long as EG makes a favorable ROI on Idra then he most certainly earns a salary that reflects his accomplishments and results in SC2. |
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| r_con United States. August 20 2011 03:32. Posts 357 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:21 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:18 r_con wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:03 Talin wrote:
I typed out like 3 different answers to this blog, and deleted them all, because I just can't argue with someone who thinks so differently about things on a fundamental level. It's like we're not really speaking the same language to be honest.
A few corrections though, based on facts alone:
- EG doesn't make the players better. They systematically make them worse. At least in Starcraft 2, people who manage their team are completely clueless and all the decisions they made were detrimental to the development of all the players they have.
- EG players aren't being paid what they deserve. They're being paid more than that - probably a lot more. Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2.
They have made mistakes, but they understand that. They accepted those mistakes and are taking action by sending their better players to korea. Without EG would all of the EG players be better? if anything they would be the same, i doubt being on EG effected the level of play negatively. Other point, idk, no one has released salaries, but i hope they are getting paid fairly. Overpaid, we don't know, no one has a clue about the situation of the average salary of pro gamers.
How do you know they understand that? No recent move tells me they do to be honest. They're not sending anyone to Korea - Idra is kinda going, but then it turns out he's really not, he'll just spend one or two months being neither here nor there. Their players wouldn't be better? Idra WAS already better, he was de facto the best foreigner, now every segment of his play is underwhelming. DeMusliM was considered to be among the top 5 European players. Incontrol was one of the top American players as well for Brood War.
Was incontrol held back because of EG? no he wasn't he was held back because he wanted to support the NASL. DeMuslim? wtf did EG possibly do to make him worse? If the only thing is taking Idra from korea, they knew they made a mistake, and they are sending him to korea to train.
Tell me some other team that is sending shit tons of players to korea for long stretches that is making a good ROI? Oh wait, probably no one except EG and possibly TL. What about the TL members that lived in korea and are still having a hard time competing in west? Did they not do their part?
It just seems far fetched that you are blaming EG for making players worse when possibly the only case is making Idra worse by pulling him out of Korea. |
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 Kipsate Netherlands. August 20 2011 03:34. Posts 19038 | Profile Blog # |
| My hate of EG is in the fact that they don't actually have good players, they just buy them. |
| | Park Ji Yeon/Ye Eun/Kang Min Kyung, T-ara/Wonder Girls/Davichi |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:35. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:22 -Frog- wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:18 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense. You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though.
Well of course you can MAKE the statement. Whether it makes you seem presumptuous or possessing an agenda or not is another story. In this case it's clear that you're content to trash on EG without knowing any facts. One last thing. A player's worth to an organization is much more than the tournament results they bring in. A player like Idra - who is a great player - is also incredibly valuable because of his popularity for his personality as well as his gameplay.
What are you talking about, there are plenty of facts available to me.
Here's a fact: a player going from a most successful foreign team with best support for its players, and he doesn't go to a better team, nor to a top Korean team, but to a team with a mediocre lineup, abysmal results and no real training facilities for "life changing" salary.
Does that fact tell you how big the salary is? No. Can you tell how big the salary is relative to other what teams give and progamers have? Yes it can, if you want to see it. But I understand that the "no facts" is the easiest argument you can make, so that's what you're going for. Fine by me. -_-
As for the other point you make, I actually understand that quite well. And that's exactly all EG is really about - media exposure. One more reason to dislike them in my book. |
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| -Frog- United States. August 20 2011 03:38. Posts 472 | Profile # |
On August 20 2011 03:35 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:22 -Frog- wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:18 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense. You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though.
Well of course you can MAKE the statement. Whether it makes you seem presumptuous or possessing an agenda or not is another story. In this case it's clear that you're content to trash on EG without knowing any facts. One last thing. A player's worth to an organization is much more than the tournament results they bring in. A player like Idra - who is a great player - is also incredibly valuable because of his popularity for his personality as well as his gameplay.
What are you talking about, there are plenty of facts available to me. Here's a fact: a player going from a most successful foreign team with best support for its players, and he doesn't go to a better team, nor to a top Korean team, but to a team with a mediocre lineup, abysmal results and no real training facilities for "life changing" salary. Does that fact tell you how big the salary is? No. Can you tell how big the salary is relative to other what teams give and progamers have? Yes it can, if you want to see it. But I understand that the "no facts" is the easiest argument you can make, so that's what you're going for. Fine by me. -_- As for the other point you make, I actually understand that quite well. And that's exactly all EG is really about - media exposure. One more reason to dislike them in my book.
It tells you that EG is willing to pay Huk more than Liquid is. Nothing else. It makes no statement about how overpaid or underpaid or adequately paid the rest of EG is. You're drawing inferences from a tiny amount of data and presenting it as the truth and that's what I have a problem with.
As for you disliking EG because they understand the importance of media exposure I won't argue with you because that's your own opinion. Consider however that increased media exposure brings sponsors to the scene that provide players with the salaries necessary for them to devote 100% of their time to SC2, giving us better games and tournaments.
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| jupidar United States. August 20 2011 03:39. Posts 224 | Profile # |
| Media exposure is one of the reasons why they have so many sponsors and continue to retain sponsorships. |
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| Talin Montenegro. August 20 2011 03:46. Posts 8256 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:38 -Frog- wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:35 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:22 -Frog- wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:18 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense. You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though.
Well of course you can MAKE the statement. Whether it makes you seem presumptuous or possessing an agenda or not is another story. In this case it's clear that you're content to trash on EG without knowing any facts. One last thing. A player's worth to an organization is much more than the tournament results they bring in. A player like Idra - who is a great player - is also incredibly valuable because of his popularity for his personality as well as his gameplay.
What are you talking about, there are plenty of facts available to me. Here's a fact: a player going from a most successful foreign team with best support for its players, and he doesn't go to a better team, nor to a top Korean team, but to a team with a mediocre lineup, abysmal results and no real training facilities for "life changing" salary. Does that fact tell you how big the salary is? No. Can you tell how big the salary is relative to other what teams give and progamers have? Yes it can, if you want to see it. But I understand that the "no facts" is the easiest argument you can make, so that's what you're going for. Fine by me. -_- As for the other point you make, I actually understand that quite well. And that's exactly all EG is really about - media exposure. One more reason to dislike them in my book.
It tells you that EG is willing to pay Huk more than Liquid is. Nothing else. It makes no statement about how overpaid or underpaid or adequately paid the rest of EG is.
No, it tells me way more than that. It was specifically said he was willing to take less money to stay in TL, but that TL's offer couldn't even get close. Also, do you specifically choose to ignore the term "life changing"?
As for the rest of EG, when Idra says tournament prize money (that averages around $10k for a top rank nowadays) isn't so significant in comparison to the salary he's getting at EG - again, all is obvious here.
On August 20 2011 03:38 -Frog- wrote:
As for you disliking EG because they understand the importance of media exposure I won't argue with you because that's your own opinion. Consider however that increased media exposure brings sponsors to the scene that provide players with the salaries necessary for them to devote 100% of their time to SC2, giving us better games and tournaments.
I haven't noticed the contribution EG had to the level of competitive SC2 really.
As for bringing sponsors to the scene in general (unrelated to EG sponsors specifically), it's all part of a temporary esports bubble that can really burst at any point in the near future. Attributing it to EG's way of doing business (even though they're like the ONLY organization that operates like that in SC2) is quite a long shot tbh.Last edit: 2011-08-20 03:51:17 |
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| r_con United States. August 20 2011 03:54. Posts 357 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:46 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:38 -Frog- wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:35 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:22 -Frog- wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:18 Talin wrote:
On August 20 2011 03:16 -Frog- wrote:
You can't make a statement like "Relative to the top SC2 progamers they are overpaid, and the salaries they have most definitely don't reflect their accomplishments and results in SC2." when all you know about the salaries of EG players and other pro SC2 players is what you've heard through the grape vine.
Yes you can. It's a simple matter of connecting the dots and having common sense. You can choose to ignore it as well, that's up to you though.
Well of course you can MAKE the statement. Whether it makes you seem presumptuous or possessing an agenda or not is another story. In this case it's clear that you're content to trash on EG without knowing any facts. One last thing. A player's worth to an organization is much more than the tournament results they bring in. A player like Idra - who is a great player - is also incredibly valuable because of his popularity for his personality as well as his gameplay.
What are you talking about, there are plenty of facts available to me. Here's a fact: a player going from a most successful foreign team with best support for its players, and he doesn't go to a better team, nor to a top Korean team, but to a team with a mediocre lineup, abysmal results and no real training facilities for "life changing" salary. Does that fact tell you how big the salary is? No. Can you tell how big the salary is relative to other what teams give and progamers have? Yes it can, if you want to see it. But I understand that the "no facts" is the easiest argument you can make, so that's what you're going for. Fine by me. -_- As for the other point you make, I actually understand that quite well. And that's exactly all EG is really about - media exposure. One more reason to dislike them in my book.
It tells you that EG is willing to pay Huk more than Liquid is. Nothing else. It makes no statement about how overpaid or underpaid or adequately paid the rest of EG is.
No, it tells me way more than that. It was specifically said he was willing to take less money to stay in TL, but that TL's offer couldn't even get close. Also, do you specifically choose to ignore the term "life changing"?
Show nested quote +On August 20 2011 03:38 -Frog- wrote:
As for you disliking EG because they understand the importance of media exposure I won't argue with you because that's your own opinion. Consider however that increased media exposure brings sponsors to the scene that provide players with the salaries necessary for them to devote 100% of their time to SC2, giving us better games and tournaments.
I haven't noticed the contribution EG had to the level of competitive SC2 really.
What would you have teams be like? like teams in korea? where some of the teams are having economic troubles and some teams cant pay their players despite their hard work and effort? Just because you don't win a god damn championship doesn't mean you shouldn't get paid or are not a good player, that is what korea currently is and that is not what i want esports to be. I respect their hard work and amazing skills but hate they they are not paid proper. |
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| ComaDose Canada. August 20 2011 04:00. Posts 2144 | Profile Blog # |
| I want ESPORTS to be on prime time TV in HD. |
| | BW pros training sc2 is like kiss making a dub step album. |
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| QuanticHawk United States. August 20 2011 04:15. Posts 21515 | Profile Blog # |
On August 20 2011 03:18 r_con wrote:
Also, people are basing pay off skill: no its marketability/ team finance.
Jaedong didnt get nearly as much as bisu, despite being the better player. Nada was making tons of money even when he wasn't a top top player.
Hey homies, you should listen to this dude because he's the only one who is right so far
The team is far more financially stable because they compete in many other games, so the backing is there.
They're pimping the shit out of the guys through marketing. State of the Game is a big show. Inc was on that WCG gamer show. Puma was fresh off that TSL win. Idra was one of the first in korea for SC2 and is an established name both here and abroad. Any news with EG as a team in SC2 just generates shitloads of hits.
From a simple search of threads here:
EG to HUk, Huk to Kor had 155,000 views
the master cup series had 90k views
EG house announcement had 189k views
The EG mystery announcement is sitting at just under 1.5 fucking million views (jesus)
PUMa leaving ws nearly 600k views
Alex's response got 161k views
any news with teams like fnatic, slayers and others don't even come close. Liquid is the only other team whose news generally breaks 100k views.
it's pretty simple. EG is assembling a team of talented but maybe not quite great players that bring value in terms of being marketable for various reasons. They've got most of the faces for the American SC2 scene, and probably some of the most recognizable people outside out Korea. These guys are being paid based not only for skill, but for the marketing value that other players simply don't have
I want some organized body so there's no more of this dumb drama and some way of getting it on a real tv station so my lazy ass only has to flick a remote a few ways to watch what I want
Last edit: 2011-08-20 04:16:32 |
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