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| Hulavuta United States. April 24 2012 06:53. Posts 1252 | Profile Blog # |
| What's your name and code? |
| | Done with Team Liquid for a while. Don't expect to find me here. | |
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 JingleHell United States. April 24 2012 06:54. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # | |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| Servius_Fulvius United States. April 24 2012 06:56. Posts 947 | Profile # |
On April 24 2012 03:15 JingleHell wrote:
Now I have to ask. Is this even the same game that I regularly watch? I'm not convinced. I'm sure if I played like a Bronze, I could probably get out of Bronze faster, but I want to actually be playing Starcraft 2 when I get out, instead of some bizarre bastardization that has me having to backtrack and learn how to play the game later.
You seem familiar with Gheed's posts. This is why I'm surprised you're making a major mistake he's pointed out a few times. I The area of interest is set bold in the quote.
There's something seriously wrong with your mindset if you think a bunch of wildly bizarre play ISN'T starcraft. Gheed mentions this several times when victims of the worker rushes complain about "not being able to play the game" when the game, in fact, is being played. I play on my little brother's and girlfriend's bronze accounts from time to time and yes, you see a TON of crazy, nonstandard play that should never, ever work. Don't fall into the trap where you feel like "standard" play is the ONLY way to play.
You seem to want to learn standard play, so go look up so practice partners in the practice partner thread and agree not to cheese each other. It's hard, especially as zerg, to learn how to alter standard play in response to something weird, so practicing the crap out of it is your best bet. A BW caster a long time ago once said "the response to nonstandard play is standard play" - do that the first time around. You'll be surprised how often it works.
The ridiculous strategies also don't go away. I buddy of mine is a low masters zerg who zergling all-ins every zvz, does nothing but timing attacks in zvt, and regularly proxy hatches in his opponent's natural every zvp. He has no late-game plan and still manages an MMR that's top 2% of the NA server. Read: ridiculous crap is everywhere - deal with it!
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| AnachronisticAnarchy United States. April 24 2012 07:13. Posts 2288 | Profile Blog # |
Ok, since nobody seems to be capable of reading past the OP before a moronic knee-jerk reply that has nothing to do with what the fuck I'm talking about: THIS BLOG IS NOT ABOUT COMPLAINING. IF YOU READ MY OTHER SHIT, OR MY OTHER POSTS IN HERE, OR THE WHOLE FUCKING OP, YOU'LL REALIZE I KNOW THAT I SUCK AT THIS GAME. THIS BLOG IS ABOUT THE RATHER HUMOROUS FACT THAT PLAYING AT THE LOWEST LEVELS IS LIKE PLAYING A DIFFERENT GAME. THANK YOU!
Well someone blew a gasket.
Look, that may have been your intended point, but I'm willing to bet that most of us thought that there was a large degree of complaining going on there, complaining that had little basis in reality. When you make complaints that have little basis in reality, most TLers will point out that your argument is invalid.
Remember, we aren't you. We can't divine your intended point from your mind. We can only do that with your words.
Anyways, your statement that Bronze is a different game is quite accurate. Speaking from experience, almost every time I made a read that didn't come from the most direct scouting methods (i.e. scouting army comp.) I was wrong.
This is due to the fact that in every read you make, you have three outcomes:
A: Your read was right, and you are on the path to victory.
B: Your read was wrong, and you are in trouble.
C: Your opponent is flat out stupid and has no idea what he was doing when he did whatever he did that made you make that read. This can or cannot be troublesome for you, depending on how retarded he is, but more often than not, it is frustrating as hell but can be countered by not being as retarded as him and recognizing that option C exists.
In the lower leagues, ALWAYS pick option C. People are stupid, have no idea what they are doing and suck up until around masters. |
| | "How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain." |
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| UltimateHurl Ireland. April 24 2012 07:19. Posts 554 | Profile Blog # |
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him." -Mark Twain
That said I feel for you, the only way I've found to combat this is play standard and play lots of games. Good luck. |
| | @ultimatehurl | ultimatehurl.tumblr.com | http://www.facebook.com/UltimateHurl |
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| JingleHell United States. April 24 2012 07:19. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On April 24 2012 07:13 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
Show nested quote +Ok, since nobody seems to be capable of reading past the OP before a moronic knee-jerk reply that has nothing to do with what the fuck I'm talking about: THIS BLOG IS NOT ABOUT COMPLAINING. IF YOU READ MY OTHER SHIT, OR MY OTHER POSTS IN HERE, OR THE WHOLE FUCKING OP, YOU'LL REALIZE I KNOW THAT I SUCK AT THIS GAME. THIS BLOG IS ABOUT THE RATHER HUMOROUS FACT THAT PLAYING AT THE LOWEST LEVELS IS LIKE PLAYING A DIFFERENT GAME. THANK YOU!
Well someone blew a gasket. Look, that may have been your intended point, but I'm willing to bet that most of us thought that there was a large degree of complaining going on there, complaining that had little basis in reality. When you make complaints that have little basis in reality, most TLers will point out that your argument is invalid. Remember, we aren't you. We can't divine your intended point from your mind. We can only do that with your words. Anyways, your statement that Bronze is a different game is quite accurate. Speaking from experience, almost every time I made a read that didn't come from the most direct scouting methods (i.e. scouting army comp.) I was wrong. This is due to the fact that in every read you make, you have three outcomes: A: Your read was right, and you are on the path to victory. B: Your read was wrong, and you are in trouble. C: Your opponent is flat out stupid and has no idea what he was doing when he did whatever he did that made you make that read. This can or cannot be troublesome for you, depending on how retarded he is, but more often than not, it is frustrating as hell but can be countered by not being as retarded as him and recognizing that option C exists. In the lower leagues, ALWAYS pick option C. People are stupid, have no idea what they are doing and suck up until around masters.
Read the replies that led up to me blowing the gasket. It will make more sense. Because while I may not have put in a 3 page long caveat that I know I suck, a reference to that fact DID make it to the very top of the OP.
And yeah, scouting in Bronze is a nightmare. When I remember to do it, I tend to assume maximum incompetence, but sometimes it's not even possible to think on the right level to understand what's going to happen.
And I didn't make any complaint with little basis in reality. I just mentioned that playing at the bottom and watching at the top, you see two entirely different games, a point you seem to agree with. And you also seem to understand that it affects your play. Since those were the things that most people were trying to "correct", I don't see where you were going with that first bit.
On April 24 2012 07:19 UltimateHurl wrote:
"...there are some things that can beat smartness and foresight. Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him." -Mark Twain
That said I feel for you, the only way I've found to combat this is play standard and play lots of games. Good luck.
I love this quote. Even though I'm nowhere near the best, this sums up what it feels like, with my brain conditioned to one thing, and seeing stuff that doesn't fit that. Last edit: 2012-04-24 07:21:31 |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| unkkz Sweden. April 24 2012 07:34. Posts 1261 | Profile Blog # |
| Im going with the standard "learn how to macro" and you will get out of bronze not even knowing build orders. I was placed in gold on my other account never having played zerg, i just winged every build order and macrod. When i was 200/200 on 5 bases, my terran opponent was on 60 food and 2 bases. Macro gets you out of bronze even if u have no micro or builds. |
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| ShadowWolf United States. April 24 2012 07:58. Posts 197 | Profile # |
Playing the Very Hard AI works really well to beat basically everyone up to Gold. Even if you don't get all-in'd, the count of units you have will be far superior to the count that most everyone in Bronze and Silver have at that point and you'll do enormous amounts of damage if you don't win the game outright.
I placed in Bronze in the beta and got to Diamond just doing 2 Gate Robo expands every game. While I scouted, I chose to focus primarily on macro and only looked for very specific things - e.g. at the time 3 rax, really awful versions of 'the tasteless build', and cannon rushes were very popular. |
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| Th1rdEye United States. April 24 2012 08:45. Posts 809 | Profile Blog # |
You just seem to be contradicting everything people are saying, as if you want to stay in bronze.
Truth is, learn to micro, macro, and multitask and you will get out of bronze.. I'll repeat myself again.
I don't care if it's hard to understand what the opponent is doing, I don't care if they don't know strategies.. Learn one of your own, and they will die.
30 cannons on a ramp? Nydus him. Drop him. Out expand..
Carriers? Get fucking corruptors. Send an overseer in before he gets 30 carriers?
Just saw your edit for your blog.. look..if you took our advice you wouldn't even be writing a blog about being in bronzeLast edit: 2012-04-24 08:56:22 |
| | high masters (NA,EU,KR) zerg stream: http://www.twitch.tv/galaxyzerg ! |
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| nttea Sweden. April 24 2012 09:34. Posts 4064 | Profile Blog # |
On April 24 2012 04:05 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:52 nttea wrote:
Jingle, that is true for EVERY level of play though, it's harder to get better than the players you face since you can't face anyone better than that to learn from. Bronze is still the EASIEST of all leagues to advance from, and since you read gheed's blogs he claims all you need to do is learn how to fucking play the game.
I don't really see what's wrong with being bronze though as long as you are having fun it shouldn't bother you! but don't try to blame your incompetence on some fictional elo hell, if you really think playing against better opponents would help (it probably would) can't you find some? through teamliquid or chat channel or something.
I'm working on finding people to work with, actually. I'm curious where you got this impression of "blaming incompetence on some fictional elo hell". I pretty clearly own my part in sucking. However, if you aren't actually smart enough to recognize that you pretty blatantly contradict yourself, you probably shouldn't be attacking me based on a gross misperception of what I said. I'm not claiming to be better than the people I play. I'm claiming that they're so bad that I don't improve much by playing against them. You seem to agree this is entirely possible, and since this is the only definition of MMR hell being used in this blog, you should probably try thinking a bit before trying to sound all superior.
how am i contradicting myself, I'm saying your issue extends to every level of play and there's nothing inherently different in bronze, just lower level play. So that would mean we are all in your definition of elo hell.
Also, i do find it obnoxious whenever some dude mentions he's bronze people immediately jump on telling him where he's going wrong even though that was never the point of their posts/blogs in the first place however yours did come off as a little bit of a rant/whine which is why i responded that way. But i do disagree that bronze is a different game, people do random shit in master league as well, just better executed.Last edit: 2012-04-24 09:37:36 |
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| Royskopp April 24 2012 12:21. Posts 20 | Profile Blog # |
Yes the lower leagues are a completely different game but out of all honesty, its not about your lack of APM skill etc.
I got from bronze to diamond in 2 months just by looking at the Global Hotkey menu and picking out and rebinding keys that would make it easier for me to play. Simple as that. |
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| SCbiff April 25 2012 03:20. Posts 110 | Profile # |
First off:
Ok, since nobody seems to be capable of reading past the OP before a moronic knee-jerk reply that has nothing to do with what the fuck I'm talking about
What the hell are we supposed to respond to if not your OP? Are we supposed to scour TL and the entire internet looking for your sage words before we deign to reply to your post? Hey, if you just wanna let of steam and don't want anybody to reply, then maybe create your own little unknown blogspace somewhere that nobody will read and have it. If you're going to post on TL, you're going to get responses. This might be a blog, but it isn't a lecture.
Now having said that, I disagree with your premise. Like so many bronze players you are WAY over-analyzing the situation. If you want out of bronze, you need to practice your fundamentals and that's all. It doesn't matter what wacky, off-center stuff your bronze level opponents do, if you just improve your mechanics and ignore whatever they are doing you will get out of bronze. Guarantee it.
Specifically:
Once you're trapped there, if you try to improve properly, there's a good chance you'll stay trapped for quite a while, because escaping would require playing a totally different game.
Is completely wrong. Let me ask you a question: If Idra tanked an account to the absolute bottom of the ladder, by say, losing 100 matches in a row after failing all placement matches, do you think he'd have to "[play] a totally different game" to rise out of bronze? No, of course he wouldn't. He would just fall back on his solid mechanics and would immediately start progressing.
You don't need to play a different game to get out of bronze, you just need to play this one better. I know you say that you know this, but your insistence that you have to play another game to get out of bronze implies otherwise. |
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| RehnFreemark Italy. April 25 2012 03:33. Posts 142 | Profile # |
On April 24 2012 04:12 JingleHell wrote:
Yknow, I hear this a lot, but I'm curious just how many of the people saying that have spent much time in Bronze league? There's a significant difference between a Diamond/Masters level player tanking to Bronze and then working their way back out, and trying to gradually improve across the same difference when there's literally no sane metagame.
This is honestly a silly argument. Everybody who came out of bronze stayed in bronze just enough to learn how to get out of it, and that's it. Especially people who never or hardly ever played brood war before. I spent less than a month in bronze with nearly no experience (only single player) of SC1.
You do get some absurd games in bronze because people play in an extremely weird fashion, much different than what you see in high level games, but it's definitely not true that you need to be outside of a bronze skill level to beat that kind of weird plays, quite the contrary, you need to beat that kind of weird play to get outside of bronze skill level.
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| | ... He leads me on light years away, through astral nights, galactic days... |
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| JingleHell United States. April 25 2012 04:06. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 03:20 SCbiff wrote:First off:
Show nested quote +Ok, since nobody seems to be capable of reading past the OP before a moronic knee-jerk reply that has nothing to do with what the fuck I'm talking about
What the hell are we supposed to respond to if not your OP? Are we supposed to scour TL and the entire internet looking for your sage words before we deign to reply to your post? Hey, if you just wanna let of steam and don't want anybody to reply, then maybe create your own little unknown blogspace somewhere that nobody will read and have it. If you're going to post on TL, you're going to get responses. This might be a blog, but it isn't a lecture. Now having said that, I disagree with your premise. Like so many bronze players you are WAY over-analyzing the situation. If you want out of bronze, you need to practice your fundamentals and that's all. It doesn't matter what wacky, off-center stuff your bronze level opponents do, if you just improve your mechanics and ignore whatever they are doing you will get out of bronze. Guarantee it. Specifically:
Show nested quote +Once you're trapped there, if you try to improve properly, there's a good chance you'll stay trapped for quite a while, because escaping would require playing a totally different game.
Is completely wrong. Let me ask you a question: If Idra tanked an account to the absolute bottom of the ladder, by say, losing 100 matches in a row after failing all placement matches, do you think he'd have to "[play] a totally different game" to rise out of bronze? No, of course he wouldn't. He would just fall back on his solid mechanics and would immediately start progressing. You don't need to play a different game to get out of bronze, you just need to play this one better. I know you say that you know this, but your insistence that you have to play another game to get out of bronze implies otherwise.
Are you actually dumb enough that you think that I'm as good as IdrA and somehow stuck in Bronze anyways? That would be pretty fucking sad, honestly.
Now if you'd like to teach me the trick of making a succesful montage, so I can go from a beginner to a pro in just a couple of minutes, that would work, but otherwise, I'd guess you don't have the slightest fucking clue what I'm talking about.
Anyways, nobody read the whole OP, let alone any replies, so don't get all tearful defending all the other people that are better at running their mouths than making sense. Tell you what. Go to the next MLG, and win from the open bracket. Then tell me that all I have to do is magically be better at the game without actually practicing. Until then, you're just full of shit like every other assclown.
As it turns out, yes, Bronze is a different game. Some of the shit you play against feels more like some sort of custom map designed on acid. This means that if you want to improve, you either play a lot of games that feel pointless due to the bizarre shit, or you play vs the AI, which happens to not be fun when you're not that good. (Yes, some of us play games for fun.) |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| -Frog- United States. April 25 2012 04:21. Posts 472 | Profile # |
you either play a lot of games that feel pointless due to the bizarre shit, or you play vs the AI, which happens to not be fun when you're not that good. (Yes, some of us play games for fun.)
I know this isn't the point of your blog but it's something I wanted to address anyways because I strongly disagree. Playing vs the AI or vs no opponent at all can be lots of fun, you just have to know where to look to get satisfaction. Work on running through your build as smoothly as possible. No supply blocks, no idle larvae, low minerals, low energy on queens, creep constantly spreading, drones on gas the second the geysers done, etc. All of the standard "maintenance" tasks that go along with a normal game of SC2. When you line up everything perfectly and efficiently and you're hands are moving fast it's a pretty cool feeling.
The tangible benefit is that you can run through your build like it's second nature and you will find it a lot easier to dedicate time to scouting and controlling your army when you instinctively know what to do next with your normal build.
Of course this doesn't teach you anything about reacting to scouting information and making adjustments to your build or anything but the benefit is real and it's a very useful technique for beginning and advanced players alike.
Once again I know I didn't address your main point so feel free to ignore this post if you will but give playing vs the AI (or vs no opponent) another chance because it can be lots of fun to straighten out all the irregularities and to bring all of your orbs into alignment. |
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| JingleHell United States. April 25 2012 04:22. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 04:21 -Frog- wrote:
Show nested quote +you either play a lot of games that feel pointless due to the bizarre shit, or you play vs the AI, which happens to not be fun when you're not that good. (Yes, some of us play games for fun.)
I know this isn't the point of your blog but it's something I wanted to address anyways because I strongly disagree. Playing vs the AI or vs no opponent at all can be lots of fun, you just have to know where to look to get satisfaction. Work on running through your build as smoothly as possible. No supply blocks, no idle larvae, low minerals, low energy on queens, creep constantly spreading, drones on gas the second the geysers done, etc. All of the standard "maintenance" tasks that go along with a normal game of SC2. When you line up everything perfectly and efficiently and you're hands are moving fast it's a pretty cool feeling. The tangible benefit is that you can run through your build like it's second nature and you will find it a lot easier to dedicate time to scouting and controlling your army when you instinctively know what to do next with your normal build. Of course this doesn't teach you anything about reacting to scouting information and making adjustments to your build or anything but the benefit is real and it's a very useful technique for beginning and advanced players alike. Once again I know I didn't address your main point so feel free to ignore this post if you will but give playing vs the AI (or vs no opponent) another chance because it can be lots of fun to straighten out all the irregularities and to bring all of your orbs into alignment.
Fun is subjective. Once I'm a bit better at the game overall, I think, knowing me, I'll be able to have fun that way. But at this point, it really isn't fun for me to do that. |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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| -Frog- United States. April 25 2012 04:28. Posts 472 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 04:22 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:21 -Frog- wrote:
you either play a lot of games that feel pointless due to the bizarre shit, or you play vs the AI, which happens to not be fun when you're not that good. (Yes, some of us play games for fun.)
I know this isn't the point of your blog but it's something I wanted to address anyways because I strongly disagree. Playing vs the AI or vs no opponent at all can be lots of fun, you just have to know where to look to get satisfaction. Work on running through your build as smoothly as possible. No supply blocks, no idle larvae, low minerals, low energy on queens, creep constantly spreading, drones on gas the second the geysers done, etc. All of the standard "maintenance" tasks that go along with a normal game of SC2. When you line up everything perfectly and efficiently and you're hands are moving fast it's a pretty cool feeling. The tangible benefit is that you can run through your build like it's second nature and you will find it a lot easier to dedicate time to scouting and controlling your army when you instinctively know what to do next with your normal build. Of course this doesn't teach you anything about reacting to scouting information and making adjustments to your build or anything but the benefit is real and it's a very useful technique for beginning and advanced players alike. Once again I know I didn't address your main point so feel free to ignore this post if you will but give playing vs the AI (or vs no opponent) another chance because it can be lots of fun to straighten out all the irregularities and to bring all of your orbs into alignment.
Fun is subjective. Once I'm a bit better at the game overall, I think, knowing me, I'll be able to have fun that way. But at this point, it really isn't fun for me to do that.
I guess my point is that you have to sacrifice a little bit of fun now so that you can have even more fun later. Picking up something really difficult always kind of sucks at first but when you've put in the work and have improved it becomes a lot better. I hope you give what I said a try and see if you can find the joy in making something really difficult work well. |
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| JingleHell United States. April 25 2012 04:30. Posts 11262 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 04:28 -Frog- wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:22 JingleHell wrote:
On April 25 2012 04:21 -Frog- wrote:
you either play a lot of games that feel pointless due to the bizarre shit, or you play vs the AI, which happens to not be fun when you're not that good. (Yes, some of us play games for fun.)
I know this isn't the point of your blog but it's something I wanted to address anyways because I strongly disagree. Playing vs the AI or vs no opponent at all can be lots of fun, you just have to know where to look to get satisfaction. Work on running through your build as smoothly as possible. No supply blocks, no idle larvae, low minerals, low energy on queens, creep constantly spreading, drones on gas the second the geysers done, etc. All of the standard "maintenance" tasks that go along with a normal game of SC2. When you line up everything perfectly and efficiently and you're hands are moving fast it's a pretty cool feeling. The tangible benefit is that you can run through your build like it's second nature and you will find it a lot easier to dedicate time to scouting and controlling your army when you instinctively know what to do next with your normal build. Of course this doesn't teach you anything about reacting to scouting information and making adjustments to your build or anything but the benefit is real and it's a very useful technique for beginning and advanced players alike. Once again I know I didn't address your main point so feel free to ignore this post if you will but give playing vs the AI (or vs no opponent) another chance because it can be lots of fun to straighten out all the irregularities and to bring all of your orbs into alignment.
Fun is subjective. Once I'm a bit better at the game overall, I think, knowing me, I'll be able to have fun that way. But at this point, it really isn't fun for me to do that.
I guess my point is that you have to sacrifice a little bit of fun now so that you can have even more fun later. Picking up something really difficult always kind of sucks at first but when you've put in the work and have improved it becomes a lot better. I hope you give what I said a try and see if you can find the joy in making something really difficult work well.
I have given it a try. It's dull, because with so much stuff that goes bad in my play, it's kinda like trying to kill an ant infestation with a magnifying glass. |
| | http://jinglehelltech.blogspot.com -- Pics of my rig in Profile |
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 Ares[Effort]  DEMACIA. April 25 2012 04:32. Posts 6104 | Profile Blog # | |
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