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| dogabutila United States. April 25 2012 14:45. Posts 1436 | Profile Blog # |
| United States has THE highest corporate income tax of westernized first world countries. |
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 rotinegg United States. April 25 2012 14:55. Posts 1717 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 14:45 dogabutila wrote:
United States has THE highest corporate income tax of westernized first world countries.
source? cuz i don't think it's true... last I checked we were high but not at the top |
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| CecilSunkure United States. April 25 2012 14:58. Posts 2240 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 13:45 schimmetje wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 13:37 StarStruck wrote:
On April 25 2012 13:33 schimmetje wrote:
TLDR: blizz should hire me, i could make them millions more than they are because i'm not an arrogant activision executive
Perhaps, but some experience in a large project like this may help. Your numbers are crazy made up things. Honestly, 20 programmers + equipment? That's what you need to develop something of the scale of SC2? Wow.
It's actually not so far fetched if you have a really good team.
No. No it really is. It's not at all the same as making some little sprite game. Just throwing some "really good programmers" at something does not magically decrease the realities of the resources required, nor does it account for management, design, art, distribution, support, whatever. This may have worked in the 80's and it may work on the App Store. It does not work on the scale of SC2. Blizzard employs over 4k people and that's after recent layoffs. They're not just doing that to keep them off the street. For comparison, here's a look at how many people were involved in the original StarCraft.
Well you're right in that you need a lot of people for a big project, but honestly a big project doesn't necessarily mean a good experience for the player. Prime example is Terraria. One self-taught dude on his first project made a ton of money near instantly on release, all because he made a game that people really loved.
Bigger is not better. Work smarter not harder. |
| | http://bit.ly/HJBjgK - Free RTS I dev'd! | |
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| Froadac United States. April 25 2012 15:02. Posts 5642 | Profile Blog # |
| This all is fairly irrelevant, to be quite honest. Blizzard is owned by activision, who are looking at guaranteed, not potential profits. |
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| schimmetje Netherlands. April 25 2012 15:06. Posts 1045 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 14:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 13:45 schimmetje wrote:
On April 25 2012 13:37 StarStruck wrote:
On April 25 2012 13:33 schimmetje wrote:
TLDR: blizz should hire me, i could make them millions more than they are because i'm not an arrogant activision executive
Perhaps, but some experience in a large project like this may help. Your numbers are crazy made up things. Honestly, 20 programmers + equipment? That's what you need to develop something of the scale of SC2? Wow.
It's actually not so far fetched if you have a really good team.
No. No it really is. It's not at all the same as making some little sprite game. Just throwing some "really good programmers" at something does not magically decrease the realities of the resources required, nor does it account for management, design, art, distribution, support, whatever. This may have worked in the 80's and it may work on the App Store. It does not work on the scale of SC2. Blizzard employs over 4k people and that's after recent layoffs. They're not just doing that to keep them off the street. For comparison, here's a look at how many people were involved in the original StarCraft.
Well you're right in that you need a lot of people for a big project, but honestly a big project doesn't necessarily mean a good experience for the player. Prime example is Terraria. One self-taught dude on his first project made a ton of money near instantly on release, all because he made a game that people really loved. Bigger is not better. Work smarter not harder.
I'd love to see the reaction to Blizzard following up something like SC and SC:BW with a Terraria-style SC2. It's apples and oranges. Terraria is not the same kind of game and certainly not up to the same kind of standard. It's again like saying "4 students made a sprite game, SO Blizzard should be able to make SC2 with that." Which is kind of stupid.Last edit: 2012-04-25 15:10:54 |
| | Change to MY nostalgia? UNACCEPTABLE! Monkey paaaw! |
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| dartoo India. April 25 2012 15:13. Posts 2214 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 14:58 CecilSunkure wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 13:45 schimmetje wrote:
On April 25 2012 13:37 StarStruck wrote:
On April 25 2012 13:33 schimmetje wrote:
TLDR: blizz should hire me, i could make them millions more than they are because i'm not an arrogant activision executive
Perhaps, but some experience in a large project like this may help. Your numbers are crazy made up things. Honestly, 20 programmers + equipment? That's what you need to develop something of the scale of SC2? Wow.
It's actually not so far fetched if you have a really good team.
No. No it really is. It's not at all the same as making some little sprite game. Just throwing some "really good programmers" at something does not magically decrease the realities of the resources required, nor does it account for management, design, art, distribution, support, whatever. This may have worked in the 80's and it may work on the App Store. It does not work on the scale of SC2. Blizzard employs over 4k people and that's after recent layoffs. They're not just doing that to keep them off the street. For comparison, here's a look at how many people were involved in the original StarCraft.
Well you're right in that you need a lot of people for a big project, but honestly a big project doesn't necessarily mean a good experience for the player. Prime example is Terraria. One self-taught dude on his first project made a ton of money near instantly on release, all because he made a game that people really loved. Bigger is not better. Work smarter not harder.
I think your missing the point here. What schimmetje is trying to say is that it is not possible, with the constraints specified in the op to create a game like sc2 due to the reason specified by many people in this thread. What he is not saying is larger projects are better than indie games.Last edit: 2012-04-25 15:13:59 |
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| MenithZ France. April 25 2012 15:13. Posts 21 | Profile # |
| These numbers are crazy and if Blizzard requested $15 per viewer.. damn.. |
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| sc14s United States. April 25 2012 15:39. Posts 3137 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 14:55 rotinegg wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 14:45 dogabutila wrote:
United States has THE highest corporate income tax of westernized first world countries.
source? cuz i don't think it's true... last I checked we were high but not at the top
well its the "highest" minus the fact that large corporations get massive massive tax cuts down to a criminal level (GE had a coporate tax of something like 13% last year which is lower than middle class americans pay..) |
| | Jaedong, Drg, Parting, Moon <3 |
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| sc14s United States. April 25 2012 15:39. Posts 3137 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 15:13 MenithZ wrote:
These numbers are crazy and if Blizzard requested $15 per viewer.. damn..
I don't see how this would ever work. How does one viewer per year bring in 15 dollars (and more) to kespa? |
| | Jaedong, Drg, Parting, Moon <3 |
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| Endymion United States. April 25 2012 15:55. Posts 2477 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 15:39 sc14s wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 14:55 rotinegg wrote:
On April 25 2012 14:45 dogabutila wrote:
United States has THE highest corporate income tax of westernized first world countries.
source? cuz i don't think it's true... last I checked we were high but not at the top
well its the "highest" minus the fact that large corporations get massive massive tax cuts down to a criminal level (GE had a coporate tax of something like 13% last year which is lower than middle class americans pay..)
yeah, it maxes out at 39.2% i believe, although it varies with tax protection and income level. i just used a flat tax of 35% in the model because it would only be a 4% difference up or down if it actually changed (doesn't really vary when income is so low) |
| | It left us speechless, quite speechless I tell you, and we have not stopped talking of it since. |
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| MavercK Australia. April 25 2012 15:57. Posts 2048 | Profile # |
yea these numbers dont surprise me
WoW brought in huge amounts of profits compared to expenses. Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, etc they would never do these games without having some plan for these games to match WoW in terms of money made. starcraft 2 is apparently e-sport licensing and diablo 3 is the RMAH.
it's disappointing. very nice post.Last edit: 2012-04-25 15:58:56 |
| | Brood War Remake - SC2BW - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145316 |
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| nepeta April 25 2012 17:06. Posts 1386 | Profile Blog # |
Always the same with big institutions, once they've grown big it's incredibly hard to keep up and even harder to move on. Vested interests, people becoming complacent, 'this worked before so it'll work in the future', it's everywhere:
Post-WWII the Americans built jets and rockets with slide rulers, 50 years later their space shuttles fall out of the sky and there's a private firm doing fine with a fraction of the budget.
Warcraft I, II and Starcraft were improvements in RTS land, but Blizzard acquired a lot of fat, in the shape of buildings and people, which is slowing them down. Creativity doesn't come from averaging out a lot of people, nor from old people; you need 'young', 'hungry' individuals.
It's too bad the vested interests buy and destroy any competition they can lay their hands on, as did Electronic (dark) Arts with Bullfrog, Westwood, Origin to name but a few. But that's the name of the game. As long as people keep buying rubbish with good graphics, it's their own fault. Same goes for people moaning about 3rd world slavery buying the cheapest chocolate, and unethically manufactured clothes. If you've got information and mony; the possibility to choose and you do not choose wisely, you're an ass. Not the company doing your dirty work for you.
TLDR: If you think Blizzard/Activision sucks, don't buy their games, talk about their evil deeds. |
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| Vindicare605 United States. April 25 2012 18:30. Posts 6502 | Profile Blog # |
Yes, your theory is just that Blizzard has money and is just lazy. They obviously don't care about their product AT ALL. Even though the Blizzard brand name is their BIGGEST asset ever and what sets them apart from the rest of the gaming industry.
Yes, their reason for delays MUST be laziness. There can't be ANY other explanation.
Your friend's tablet game is DIRECTLY comparable to a company managing 4 online communities and still developing new games.
Seriously?!
I want new b.net features as much as the next guy, but your reasoning in this blog is based purely on rage. Calm down, think about how bad your example is and just be patient.
Blizzard has been consistent with making us wait for as long as it has existed. It is the playerbase that's grown restless rather than the company that's grown incompetent.Last edit: 2012-04-25 18:34:02 |
| | Official Caster for .SCA @KTVindicare: twitter, twitch.tv/ktvindicare: stream, ktvindicare@hotmail.com |
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| Roflhaxx Norway. April 25 2012 18:44. Posts 1011 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 09:19 GreYMisT wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 09:17 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
If it was really this simple there would be a quality RTS released in the past decade. I can't think of a franchise that hasn't gone to shit in the past years ^_^
Idk, valve continues to make sense. I wonder if they will ever release their own RTS...
I would actually love to see this happen, mostly just as a big one up the backdoor of 'shitty blizzard'. And while they are at it, team up with Runic Games (Former Blizzard North, guys who made diablo 1&2) or something and make an epic dungeon crawler. |
| | A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game. |
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| felisconcolori United States. April 25 2012 18:46. Posts 2531 | Profile # |
I'm interested in knowing where you figured your salary figures from. Entry level programming jobs are usually in the $30k / year range; even interns still in college were making around $10/hr (~$20,800 /year). Also, as someone else mentioned, programmers are not artists, modelers, etc, and you would probably need at least one or two of those (check CCP games to see what happens when you have a very small art department for a largish game development studio). You've also neglected various business costs - you WILL want a lawyer on retainer, at the minimum, incorporation fees, payroll services, tax preparation and general accounting, healthcare costs for employees (depends on location of business, of course - you could prototype it in India fairly cheap although costs there are rising as well) - general overhead like that. You also aren't running the balance sheet cumulatively - looking at three years of development, you will wind up at product launch over 3 million in the red (probably more) and will not be making any profits until at least year 5. There's no guarantee that KeSPA would be interested in another RTS without the name recognition in StarCraft, so that's speculative. RTS games in general have been declining in popularity over the years, and you can't base your business model on the idea that ESPORTS will save your product - which makes the break-even / profit stage possibly even later than year 5. You'd require VC or some serious personal investment to get it off the ground, and of course a great idea to be able to sell the game before, during, and after release. You would also have to investigate the systems and mechanics you use to ensure you aren't going to run afoul of patent trolls. (Someone, somewhere, may have patented a "method of gather gas to create tech units" or some such nonsense. Best to be sure before your game makes it big and someone hits you with a billion dollar infringement case.)
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that the costs are going to be higher than you're projecting, the income stream is far from guaranteed, and that it's risky as hell. Startup game companies can do very well, but a lot of indy studios break before their products can even hit launch. (Mad props to Notch.) |
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| aebriol Norway. April 25 2012 19:13. Posts 2064 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote:
We all know that Blizzard fucked up with Starcraft 2 and that they continue to screw us with their customer support
Not true.
So the rest of your post is somewhat meaningless, considering it's based on a stupid, provable false statement.
In addition, your numbers are just fluff. They are completely meaningless. Guess what? If it was that easy, KESPA would have made their own game already. |
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| Vindicare605 United States. April 25 2012 19:25. Posts 6502 | Profile Blog # |
On April 25 2012 19:13 aebriol wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote:
We all know that Blizzard fucked up with Starcraft 2 and that they continue to screw us with their customer support
Not true. So the rest of your post is somewhat meaningless, considering it's based on a stupid, provable false statement. In addition, your numbers are just fluff. They are completely meaningless. Guess what? If it was that easy, KESPA would have made their own game already.
Pretty much.
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| | Official Caster for .SCA @KTVindicare: twitter, twitch.tv/ktvindicare: stream, ktvindicare@hotmail.com |
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| Grend April 25 2012 19:30. Posts 1542 | Profile Blog # |
I just do not get how making the things that are missing in SC2 can be so hard to do.
SC2 for me is being carried by TL, without it there would be no way to actually see all the stuff that happens. |
| | ♞ Against the Wind - Bob Seger ♞ |
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| brachester Australia. April 25 2012 19:56. Posts 1751 | Profile Blog # |
| Edymion for the president! |
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| Xatalos Finland. April 25 2012 20:26. Posts 890 | Profile # |
On April 25 2012 19:13 aebriol wrote:
Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 08:12 Endymion wrote:
We all know that Blizzard fucked up with Starcraft 2 and that they continue to screw us with their customer support
Not true. So the rest of your post is somewhat meaningless, considering it's based on a stupid, provable false statement. In addition, your numbers are just fluff. They are completely meaningless. Guess what? If it was that easy, KESPA would have made their own game already.
I agree completely with this post by aebriol...
In addition, Blizzard has made a lot of improvements based on player feedback (tournament map pool for ladder, fully customisable hotkeys, chat channels, most of complaints addressed in patch 1.5...). Even though SC2 generates very little money for Blizzard until the expansion. Meanwhile, LoL generates insane amounts of profit for Riot Games, but Riot refuses to implement basic features like replays or observers while spending all their effort to create more cash-shop content.
It's also too early to say that SC2 would have failed in Korea. KeSPA is now replacing SC1 with SC2, thus essentially replacing the SC1 cable TV broadcasts with SC2, which will increase SC2's popularity among the common Koreans massively. This will lead to vastly more people playing SC2, watching SC2, and sponsors pouring money to SC2. It's a huge positive loop that will probably secure SC2 as the biggest eSports title in both Korea and the global market so far. |
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