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| Asymptote1 May 02 2012 08:27. Posts 121 | Profile # |
I write this thread to hopefully open people's eyes about the current state of Tribes Ascend and open the veil of deceit that the devs at Hi Rez have emplaced on the community. During NASL season 2 grand finals event, Tribes Ascend was announced as NASL season 3's new game on the docket during DJ wheat's live podcast/show, this was very exciting and as the devs who were there talking about it, said they really wanted this to be a successfull e-sport. Like that the starcraft community and others welcomed this new promising game with open arms, as well as open wallets.
When the Beta was released they announced that the game would follow the "Freemium" model with microtransactions, except it wasnt just a launch feature to be emplaced, it was actually in the beta. The beta testing period, which is supposed to be for balance testing as a chief priority was instead being used for monotization of the community. Since the EXP costs for the equipment was so high, only a fraction of the players had the majority of the guns unlocked so that they could use them, already the prospects of game balance wasn't looking promising. Imagine in Starcraft 2 if you had to unlock the right just to use certain units, as in paying money or spending an obscenely large amount of time to unlock the roach or the carrier, simply put this sounds completely absurd.
But for Hi Rez, it wasn't absurd, it was business. Throwing the piority for game balance out the window, they used the fairly lengthy Beta "testing" period to monotize the playerbase seemingly endlessly. And make no mistake, players who paid money had blatent advantages over players who did not in practically every conceivable way. If you paid money that meant you got EXP at a exponentially higher rate then other people which meant your upgrade unlocks would happen drastically quickly while other players had little to none, the armour upgrades specifically gave you more health, more energy to jump higher for longer, and in some circumstances special unlocks at the end such as -10% mass for pathfinders which made them move faster then other pathfinders who did not have these unlocks. And too make matters worse, im just talking about ONE of the sections of unlocks that the game has.
Now people will tell you that everything can be unlocked for free and so it isn't pay to win, I am here to argue that it instead is a not-so cleverly disguised version on pay to win that people simply don't recognize very quickly. For example, to unlock a new gun in Tribes Ascend it generally costs 100000 EXP, now if your not paying anything, on average you will get about 600 EXP per game ( more if it goes over to full game length), this means that it takes an average person about 166 games (not counting first win of the day bonus) to unlock ONE gun that they could easily not even like and then they have to start all over again to get another gun. Now lets look at perks, it costs 18000 EXP to get the inital unupgraded perk and a subsequent ~18000 to upgrade it to its optimal form, some of which are blatently required to even do certain roles in the game such as Heavy on Flag (HoF) or Flag Capper/Flag Chaser. There are currently 18 perks to buy and counting in the game currently.
Now what you just read in the above paragraphs might not sell you on the truth of the matter but Hi Rez's recent actions certainly will, it all started a few months ago with their Infiltrator class update which added new guns to the infiltrator, one gun in particular (the Jackal) was blatently overpowered at launch (the entire community agreed on this matter) and after about a day or 2 it was nerfed. The gun had a mechanic about it that took skill requirements out the shot completely, all you had to do was aim it close to the enemie and it would almost always hit mid air. But I now ask this, in a game where their previous balance patches have taken months on average, how could they have possibly had this gun nerfed after just a single day or two? the only logical explanation is that they had a preplanned nerf for a preplanned design "flaw" on this gun.
Now everyone at first looked at this incident as nothing more then a freak accident until the raider update came. With the raider update came a gun called the Plasma Gun, now this gun had a large clip with a terrific firing rate, AoE delayed explosives. But what really sold this gun was the fact that it consistently made it easy for unskilled players to farm mid air kills which again, completely circumvented the skill requirements for the game. The Jackal and the Plasma gun each sell for $10 by the way, and boy did they both sell, I mean how couldn't they? They were the best guns in the game when they were each launched (in fact the plasma gun still is even after being only SLIGHTLY nerfed).
The simple fact is, Hi rez is abusing the playerbase by making this game more and more brazenly pay to win, and with the recent Plasma Gun they have become evermore courageous with their over monotization. And after trying to post threads about my concerns on their forums I have been met with thread deletions (not thread locks, straight thread deletions) on multiple occasions.
What makes me angry about this whole thing is that at NASL season 2, they were pretty much given what every E-sport could ever dream for on a silver platter when the game was only in Beta, they had full support from multiple communities, a slot for the next NASL season and they have done nothing but betray consumer trust one step at a time. And if you ask me does this game belong next to Starcraft 2, I adamantlely say no it does not.Last edit: 2012-05-02 08:32:57 |
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| LaughingTulkas United States. May 02 2012 08:33. Posts 760 | Profile # |
| Wow, I feel your pain dude, and from reading your post I agree with you. But I'm not sure what anyone can do about it. I also really only care about StarCraft, and although it's nice if the other ESPORTS do well, SC is where my heart is at. |
| | "I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill |
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| Asymptote1 May 02 2012 08:38. Posts 121 | Profile # |
| Same here, Starcraft 2 is my favourite game bar none, but with Tribes came the possibility of variety but I think it won't pan out anymore (or at least it shouldn't) after this. |
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| xDaunt United States. May 02 2012 08:38. Posts 4420 | Profile # |
| I think that you are over exaggerating the problem. Also, your gripes aren't so much about whether TA is worthy of being an eSport (it clearly is given the high skillcap) so much as it is about the questionability of the new weapons that HiRez released and xp/money system. Last edit: 2012-05-02 08:40:23 |
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 Praetorial United States. May 02 2012 08:40. Posts 3631 | Profile Blog # |
I disagree with you.
I have paid for various weapons using real-life currency, and have not noticed any discernable improvement in play.
Besides, at the highest levels, you honestly think that people are going to be f2p?
This is like saying LoL doesn't deserve to be an ESPORT because champs are unbalanced at release, but then praising Riot when they patch the champ.
I don't feel your pain, don't agree with you, and think your whining is decidedly annoying considering that this is a frequently patched free to play game. |
| | FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods! |
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| Zombo Joe Canada. May 02 2012 08:42. Posts 850 | Profile # |
I felt the same when I played the beta.
I really just didn't like losing to noobs who were using over powered items, upgrades, and weapons that would otherwise take me a year to unlock. |
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| GMarshal United States. May 02 2012 08:42. Posts 20828 | Profile Blog # | |
| | "life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" The measure of a terrible day is when you go to bed thinking "man, I wish the zombie apocalypse would start already" | |
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| Epishade United States. May 02 2012 08:45. Posts 661 | Profile Blog # |
Having played Tribes Ascend a few months ago, I did think it was ridiculous how much exp every gun and perk costed to unlock. I understand the whole point is to "buy" the guns with cash or spend hundreds of hours unlocking 1-2 out of the countless weapons. The way they are doing this is not conducive to ESPORTS. You should not have to spend hundreds, maybe thousands of hours to unlock every single weapon and perk. I completely agree with what you are saying. In the same vein, because of the wonky purchase/exp system, I feel that it will not be a solid ESPORTS game. Idk how teams would practice or even who would take the time and effort creating a team for Tribes where you would have to pay each player for every gun/perk, and then have no one to practice with. Who knows though, I might be proved wrong in the future. But I don't see it happening with the current direction this game is heading.
I adamantly disagree with any sort of pay feature where you are given an advantage upon doing so. TF2 had a pay feature (if I remember correctly) for hats and other stuff that didn't make or break a game. That might not be the best example due to the weapon customization in that game. But I think you get the point. |
| | Why do bad things happen to tasty people? |
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| Asymptote1 May 02 2012 08:46. Posts 121 | Profile # |
I disagree with you.
I have paid for various weapons using real-life currency, and have not noticed any discernable improvement in play.
Besides, at the highest levels, you honestly think that people are going to be f2p?
This is like saying LoL doesn't deserve to be an ESPORT because champs are unbalanced at release, but then praising Riot when they patch the champ.
I don't feel your pain, don't agree with you, and think your whining is decidedly annoying considering that this is a frequently patched free to play game.
If you have paid money and have not improved your play and the back on the unlocks you got via the money you spent then I can only assume that is because perhaps you dont spend enough time playing regardless. Also if were talking about competitive levels of play, unlock system as a whole is completely redundant as everyone will have everything. The sad part is, only a fraction of the playerbase will even have the opportunity just to TRY OUT the unlocks.
And the fact that riot releases overpowered champions at release is essentially the same problem wit this game where it is a completely non-competitive, crooked monotization scheme where they put money first and the quality of the game second. If you think that is "whining" then thats kind of sad honestly. |
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| syth99 United States. May 02 2012 08:47. Posts 53 | Profile Blog # |
| The jackl and plasma gun sell for $7.80 not $10 (little change i know but lets keep facts correct). Most guns are not 100k xp per either, many are 42k and 75k. The most useful guns in the game come equip with the basic package for the class (inf smg, soldier AR, raider SMG, sen BXT-1) The jugg is the only class that is actually needs his unlocks. The jackl was midly overpowered but in its current form is far from op. The hp boosts and energy boost do provide small advantages but a skilled player will still beat his opponent out 9/10 times with better aim. I'll leave the Plasma gun alone because yes it is op, but i highly doubt they wish to release overpowered guns. As to it not being an e-sport game the skill ceiling is huge. The aim is hard, the gameplay is fast and full of strategy. |
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| Crazyeyes Canada. May 02 2012 08:48. Posts 1329 | Profile Blog # |
I don't really agree either. Yeah, the Jackal was retarded as hell at launch and last I checked it was still pretty stupid. I havn't played since the Raider update so I don't really know anything about the plasma gun, but I did see the video.
Anyways, yes, unlockng weapons is one HELL of a grind as a F2P player. Its pretty awful. That being said, I generally don't feel like F2P players are at such a disadvantage. Often times the person with the top score in the game is using simple startup weapons.
Upgrades themselves generally aren't expensive, except for the very last armor upgrade.
Locked weapons generally that much better than the free ones, if at all... usually they're just different.
My feelings on it being an eSport are mixed. I definitely think it's got the skill requirements required for it to be engaging and fun eSport, and I like that HiRez is behind it. I don't really think it's the most fun to watch, though. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.
On May 02 2012 08:46 Asymptote1 wrote:
Show nested quote +I disagree with you.
I have paid for various weapons using real-life currency, and have not noticed any discernable improvement in play.
Besides, at the highest levels, you honestly think that people are going to be f2p?
This is like saying LoL doesn't deserve to be an ESPORT because champs are unbalanced at release, but then praising Riot when they patch the champ.
I don't feel your pain, don't agree with you, and think your whining is decidedly annoying considering that this is a frequently patched free to play game.
The sad part is, only a fraction of the playerbase will even have the opportunity just to TRY OUT the unlocks.
You can try out everything for free in target practice.Last edit: 2012-05-02 08:49:18 |
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| clik United States. May 02 2012 08:48. Posts 294 | Profile # |
They definitely do flirt with pay-to-win on a very fine line by making you feel like you need to spend cash. I've dropped about $40.00 which I think is about all the game is worth. I wont spend anymore money on it. Now if I need to buy something in order to play a certain role well in their future updates I will simply stop playing. So far it seems I haven't had to make that choice. Although getting the LMG for my Juggernaut meant a whole world of difference.
As far as an esport goes I don't see why not. They can ban guns, or classes, I'm sure the private servers can have those settings enabled. Last edit: 2012-05-02 08:50:26 |
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| Tachion May 02 2012 09:00. Posts 6978 | Profile # |
| Oh Tribes, you've fallen so far my love. |
| | i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have. |
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| Asymptote1 May 02 2012 09:02. Posts 121 | Profile # |
I'll leave the Plasma gun alone because yes it is op, but i highly doubt they wish to release overpowered guns.
I'm sorry but I think you missed a big point of the thread, the simple truth is that Hi Rez DOES want to release overpowered guns because they are so much more likely to sell in large quantities when people know they are too good, then once they have milked their surge of sales, they nerf it a bit becasue "We have a duty to balance our game herp derp" but only after they have gotten their moneys worth. And with the Plasma gun, yes they nerfed it slightly but its still too dam good and we dont even know if they are going to fully balance the new release gun this time, perhaps they will just leave it in a overpowered state to continue milking money for it until the next class update, then rinse and repeat. |
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| obsidia May 02 2012 09:04. Posts 118 | Profile # |
I've been playing tribes to a huge extent, both during the Beta period and since live. Im currently lvl 33 which is pretty high and shows i've spent alot of time in-game. I have every item unlocked and have probably spent in total about £25 or so ( which I spent abit on skins too). Compare that to the average price of other games today, and its certainly not too bad.
You seem not to grasp the idea of free-to-play, if you want to you dont have to pay anything. But are the devs not allowed to make some business out of their game? Yes your at a huge disadvantage initially when you start if your playing against people using the jackal/plasma gun etc. But thats to be expected. Allowing purchases during beta had very VERY little impact upon the testing period, as there were months for people to unlock the weapons and upgrades, and it was necessary as the cash-shop itself went through periods of evolution needed to get it ready for release ( changing system from tokens etc ). Complaining that people have more than you due to upgrading their armour is also absurd, that can be unlocked with exp earned from 1-2 matches. Any price changes the devs made came with equal compensation; rewarding the consumer with a related amount of exp to re-spend.
You clearly have little idea about how aggressive pay-to-win games can truely be. Tribes IS NOT PAY TO WIN its pay to play differently. Here are a few examples of why not
soldier : comes with the assault rifle and thumper unlocked, needs very little alteration except for the standard 1-2k upgrades to give you a well balanced and competative class which can fight toe-to-toe with any other. ( except pre-nerf plasma)
pathfinder - comes with spinfusor -you never need another weapon, and can cap flags like the pro's without spending a dollar.
doombringer comes with chain gun : again possibly the best projectile weapon in the game, provides perfect defense.
etc etc, actually look at the classes and think.... what more does it need to fill its intended role that I cant accomplish with practice.
There are naturally a few exceptions currently as the games in its very early stages. Broken weapons do exist but are being activly fixed. please dont just spam "but the jackal/plasma" as a counter to everything I say, they have and will continue to be changed as needed.
Almost every class you can unlock initially for <10k or starting classes come with an effective weapon and the vast majority of unlocks are side-grades or downgrades. Phase rifle? smoke grenades? prism mines? proximity mines? the list is endless. Very few of the expensive weapons are marked upgrades, most simply offer slightly alternative play-styles such as using the grenade launcher instead of ARX for raider, or the MIRV instead of Fusion mortar. Both are about similar but just have different roles. You seem to either fail to grasp the use of the classes core-starting weapons, or you dont have the ability to fully use them and put your failings down to 'oh he killed me with a weapon I havent bought yet, p2w scrub'.
Buying a £5 boost increases your exp gain by 3 times? or so when factoring in the permanant VIP bonus, this provides you with a very reasonable rate at which to earn weapons. Progression is slow BUT IT SHOULD BE. mastering each weapon you unlock takes WEEKS.... i've been playing for months and still get annihilated by people who can use smgs better than me, or people who's timings and jet-allocation surpasses my own.
Bringing out overpowered weapons so that everyone buys them seems unfair on the surface, but its a common marketing scheme in the free to pay model. Hi-rez however has scaled back instances where it was guilty of this, nearly immediately. Plasma gun took 3-4 days? before a massive nerf; the jackal a similar time. Everyone knows and expects this to be the case, and thus for the first few days after a new content release its expected that balance is still being sorted. Hi-rez bart recently commented that they would take longer in future to ensure weapon balanced upon content releases.
The game is insanely fun, and very well coud take off as an e-sport with the good community and active, skilled teams it has. Players just are expected to have more skill than your average lolcod player. Lots of seasoned veterans of true FPS games play tribes, and in some of the custom servers expect to be regularly crushed by people whos use of SMG's or the BXT1 defies belief.
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| obsidia May 02 2012 09:06. Posts 118 | Profile # |
On May 02 2012 08:40 Praetorial wrote:
I disagree with you.
I have paid for various weapons using real-life currency, and have not noticed any discernable improvement in play.
Besides, at the highest levels, you honestly think that people are going to be f2p?
This is like saying LoL doesn't deserve to be an ESPORT because champs are unbalanced at release, but then praising Riot when they patch the champ.
I don't feel your pain, don't agree with you, and think your whining is decidedly annoying considering that this is a frequently patched free to play game.
wow, you pretty much summed that up better than I did. |
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| Praetorial United States. May 02 2012 09:07. Posts 3631 | Profile Blog # |
On May 02 2012 09:02 Asymptote1 wrote:
Show nested quote + I'll leave the Plasma gun alone because yes it is op, but i highly doubt they wish to release overpowered guns.
I'm sorry but I think you missed a big point of the thread, the simple truth is that Hi Rez DOES want to release overpowered guns because they are so much more likely to sell in large quantities when people know they are too good, then once they have milked their surge of sales, they nerf it a bit becasue "We have a duty to balance our game herp derp" but only after they have gotten their moneys worth. And with the Plasma gun, yes they nerfed it slightly but its still too dam good and we dont even know if they are going to fully balance the new release gun this time, perhaps they will just leave it in a overpowered state to continue milking money for it until the next class update, then rinse and repeat.
So in essence you're whining about a game that is totally free to play, according to you improves with playtime, and does not obligate you to pay the company.
Jeez if you like the game drop $60 on it, which is the cost of a modern game.
What the hell do you want for a free, high-quality product?
Oh, right, you want the developers to go bankrupt and make totally balanced things on release because after all, they have massive patch testing capabilities(how many employees does Hi-Rez have again?) and infinite game knowledge.
But oh I forgot herp derp I hate the devs they make free game unbalanced no devs no problem a derp. |
| | FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods! |
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| Roachu Sweden. May 02 2012 09:10. Posts 510 | Profile # |
I play a little bit of Tribes from time to time, I've only played the pathfinder and I've spent zero money so far. I get blown to bits all the time (average K/D ratio is like 1-5 for me) but I still find the game fun. I think on a competitive level everything will be available for everyone (hence inherent balance), I can't see a team going into a tournament without everything unlocked.
For the casual-who-wants-to-play-competitively I can understand it feels like shit and it might hurt the scene in general with no-skill weapons being the most effective but I don't think the business model necessarily hurt the esports prospect of the game. |
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| Asymptote1 May 02 2012 09:18. Posts 121 | Profile # |
But are the devs not allowed to make some business out of their game?
They could have made their business purely on cosmetics such as skins and it would have been completely reasonable compared to what they ended up doing.
Yes your at a huge disadvantage initially when you start if your playing against people using the jackal/plasma gun etc. But thats to be expected.
Last time I checked (today) you still are at a disadvantage against the plasma gun regardless of how long you have played the game.
Allowing purchases during beta had very VERY little impact upon the testing period, as there were months for people to unlock the weapons and upgrades
Yes the Beta lasted a few some odd months, if people had to spend that time just to unlock the guns and not actually use them to gauge their balance then yes, it did impact the testing period.
[Complaining that people have more than you due to upgrading their armour is also absurd, that can be unlocked with exp earned from 1-2 matches]
If your boosting because you paid extra for it, then yes it would take all of 1-2 matches, otherwise no.
pathfinder - comes with spinfusor -you never need another weapon, and can cap flags like the pro's without spending a dollar
Except the ACTUAL proffession capper who posted guides on the Tribes Ascend Facebook page said that you did need the Egocentric and Reach perk in order to "cap flags like the pro's" which obviously costs alot extra, do I believe him or you?
doombringer comes with chain gun : again possibly the best projectile weapon in the game, provides perfect defense
Doombringer isn't exactly a good example to use considering he is the only class who currently has no alternate unlock options for guns. But again, your not counting perk costs such as SuperHeavy.
Almost every class you can unlock initially for <10k or starting classes come with an effective weapon and the vast majority of unlocks are side-grades or downgrades.
It doesnt matter that the "vast majority" of the unlocks are side-grades, if theres even one upgrade then it is technically pay to win, because just like the recent Plasma gun, everyone will pay for it day 1, and they will win all their games on the back of that gun because it was so overpowered it completely broke through objective-based play. |
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| MiKTeX United States. May 02 2012 09:24. Posts 234 | Profile Blog # |
they should probably sponsor smaller tournaments or w/e of it first before adding it to their main circuit as it is still a pretty new game =/
e/ the tribes genre isnt new but T:A isLast edit: 2012-05-02 09:24:55 |
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