| LuckyFool United States. May 29 2012 11:42. Posts 8292 | Profile Blog # |
This past weekend we saw MC take the RedBull LAN, all the games were streamed so I typically don't do this for smaller scale events that are covered so well BUT RedBull LAN was amazing at uploading replays and some games were just too good to ignore. They must have had a pretty sick automated uploading setup because games were available minutes after games with a full stats page and everything. (Download these replays from there)
Moving on to a few of the games, today we're going to look at a few replays, a couple Thorzain and Taeja TvZ's and a TvT between the two. All of the TvZ's are vs Sheth, Sheth played very well in these games but Thorzain/Taeja TvZ looks almost unbeatable sometimes and both play slightly different styles. Taeja in particular is a 15cc fiend. TL released a rep pack a couple weeks ago and Taeja was 15cc'ing in half the games...Was pretty crazy.
When watching top players its so interesting to see what sets them apart. Many top players are REALLY good at one thing or another or just overall very well balanced. (MC comes to mind) Thorzain is probably one of my favorite players to study and watch because in my opinion hes one of the most technical players in the world. (Better than 95% of koreans) When I say technical I mean builds/precision/timings. Everything seems so refined and planned out down to even the smallest stuff like building placements and army movement.
Download reps here: Reps
Games to watch:
- Thorzain vs Sheth Antiga Shipyard
This game exemplifies why Thorzain is the best foreign Terran player. He plays such a standard build (3cc into marine tank) but everything is thought out and refined so well. Sheths ling infestor play gets pretty much completely shut down. Thorzain is never in danger at any point in this game and wins how terran usually wins on Antiga, sieges in the center and denies creep/extra bases. (Antiga is slightly imbalanced for Terran in TvZ in my opinion) Sheth played pretty well in this game without major blunders or mistakes, but falters to the spoon. People have been doing 3cc builds for a really long time in TvZ but Thorzains execution is just on another level...Obviously I took some detailed notes on this and will be changing my 3cc TvZ build a bit after studying this game.
my notes on Thorzain build, I only ever note builds up to 20-30 food in general, everything else is on triggers.
+ Show Spoiler +10 depot
12 rax
13 gas
15oc
16 depot
17 fact
19 reactor (take all scvs off gas after 150 gas)
19 nat cc (fact 70%)
fact scv make depot when finished
start 2 hellions (2 scvs in gas at this point)
scv that finishes 3rd depot makes 3rd cc (2 hellions will be finishing here)
when nat is finishing start tech lab on rax and 2nd gas in main.
after tech lab rax lift and make another tech lab, after 6 hellions swap fact for tech lab.
start 3rd gas when fact and siege starts.
when 1st tank finishes make 2 ebays
start rax at naked reactor
when 1-1 is 20-25% lift to 3rd and start 3 more rax also add 2 gas at 3rd immediately while its lifting there
when those 3 rax are 50% start starport
start armory when 1-1 is 80%
reactor starport instantly
6th gas at nat when 3 extra reactor rax about to finish
when 6th gas finishes add 2nd fact then add 3rd fact (same scv)
when 3rd fact finishes add 2 more starports
extra notes: a. to know 3rd cc timing easily use just 1 scv to make factory, 3rd depot, then the 3rd cc.
b. Hellion movement with 6 hellions is important for defending against mid game timings, pulls hellions back leaving only 1 at the watch tower to help reinforce his army when he spreads out to the 3rd
c. tank movement is limited, leaves all in center, sends small squads to just clear creep/deny expos.
- Thorzain vs Sheth Metropolis
Thorzain does the EXACT same build as the Antiga game except this game goes to late/end game. Thorzain opens with marine tank, identically to the Antiga game except Sheth wins the first major engagement and in my opinion gets quite ahead. But Thorzain comes back with some nice drop play which is so strong on such a big map. Eventually Thorzain makes a switch to ravens with seeker missiles, thors, vikings and no bio. Looked really strong, this was a really nice game by both players, over 50 minute TvZ.
- Taeja vs Sheth Cloud Kingdom
Taeja is obsessed with 15cc. When I try to 15cc on NA ladder I lose to a lalush's 6lings off pool first...Taeja though makes it look SO easy and has a really strong pure bio style. Which is super strong vs ling infestor ultra. I don't have detailed notes on this game yet BUT will probably incorporate this sort of play against zergs you know play heavy macro styles. Sheth makes a few small mistakes in this game I remember but Taejas play is just really solid, also Taeja has relatively quick BC's which are unkillable when your going ling ultra infestor.
- Taeja vs Thorzain Daybreak
Thorzain does such a sick build here it's a shame he makes a massive mistake in this game so the result does not show it. But I think his build was much better and deserved to win this game. Thorzain does a build in this game that reminds me of a TvP broodwar build, a 4fact timing push...It was looking like it was going to destroy Taeja until Thorzain makes a crucial mistake getting caught unsieged with a majority of his tanks trying to move up the ramp from Taejas 3rd to his nat. The build is definitly worth looking at from Thorzain, on good mech maps like Emtombed, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, Antiga, this sort of build looks amazing and is something I will probably experiment with in TvT. I haven't taken detailed notes on this game yet either but it's definitely worth checking out.
Quick thoughts on other terrans in the event:
Illusion Reps:
I didn't study illusion games too closely but I did watch his games. He played some amazing games against Ganzi and I heard game 1 vs Violet was sick so I would check those for sure. His game 3 vs Ganzi is a build I've seen him use on Entombed especially, Nitro pack reaper builds are pretty sick. Follows it up with a cloak banshee into a marine tank push which basically just kills Ganzi. Quite a strong TvT build when it catches the opponent off guard and is one of the things that sets Illusion apart, such a wide variety of hyper aggressive builds for so many different situations, and such smart unit useage. Also the Ganzi Antiga game is excellent, Ganzi drops 2 manner mules when he thinks hes winning an engagement in the center but there were like 30 more stimmed marines following it up which cleans up everything. Illusion responds with a counter manner mule 30 seconds later as he cleans up the rest of Ganzis army. Was pretty satisfying to watch that's for sure.
Bomber reps:
Bomber had a good result in this event but I felt many of his wins were results of his opponents making blunders at bad times. I did like his 5rax 2base timings TvP, but when it worked it seemed more like the toss was just seriously screwing up. Especially in the Squirtle series. Squirtle basically choked hard, it almost looked like he threw the games to be honest *gasp* with some god awful army movement in some of his games...I didn't get a chance to check out Bombers group stage games, I'm sure there are some nice games in there.
LastShadow reps:
Don't watch.
I will also make one comment about LastShadow, he's a better player than what was displayed this weekend. But I will say that he has lost all authority to call all foreigners shit. There is absolutely no excuse for losing to a single zealot and stalker. (vs Squirtle on Antiga) It didn't even have to happen, a zealot kills 4 scvs and gets away alive, so what does LS do? moves out to try and take the watch tower with his first couple marines....promptly losing them to the obvious stalker follow up...what? This is abysmal decision making (vs a basic 1gate expand too, nothing proxy or anything) honestly just a sad display from somebody who was given a chance in this event to at least give a respectable display which did not happen AT ALL. I'm sure this weekend has been a quite humbling and interesting experience for LS. I've known and been friends with him for some years now and always helping when I can while hoping he will mature and change his ways, I am constantly proven wrong time and time again though which saddens me...some things never change I guess.
Overall the RedBull lan was a great event, amazing production overall and having an actual tournament this time had me interested in the event WAY more than previous red bull lan events which seemed boring.
Last edit: 2012-05-30 11:42:56
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| neobowman Canada. May 29 2012 11:56. Posts 2862 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Mapper on hiatus and the original creator of the Space Shark. Fan of StabbyStabby | |
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| TylerThaCreator United States. May 29 2012 12:17. Posts 762 | Profile Blog # | |
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| Ktk Korea (South). May 29 2012 12:28. Posts 708 | Profile Blog # |
Sick, thanks for this, will check out.
A question,
pure bio style. Which is super strong vs ling infestor ultra
Does taeja do anything special so that bio beats infestors? ._. I've always steered a bit away from bio (despite preferring the style to marine tank) precisely because of infestors. |
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| LuckyFool United States. May 29 2012 12:37. Posts 8292 | Profile Blog # |
| When you go pure bio you use the extra gas for lots of extra medivacs, once you have 10-12 medivacs fungals dont do any damage as long as you are microing properly and sending marauders in front of marines. |
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| Azera Singapore. May 29 2012 12:41. Posts 3378 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm watching the ThorZain vs. Sheth VODs now. Is it really true that ThorZain's style is more focused on strong, direct engagements and not really harassment? |
| | Trudge comfortably | Check out some glorious music made by TLers - http://bit.ly/QXYhdb , by intrigue. http://bit.ly/RTjpOR , by ohsea.toc. | |
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| iaguz Australia. May 29 2012 13:05. Posts 1251 | Profile Blog # |
| I really dont like thorzains build nowadays. If the zerg is really creep spread happy then he'll have creep up to your base and there's nothing you can do about it. Sheth isn't creep spready enough so you don't get to see it. 6 hellions don't do shit vs 2-3 queens, and once they get pushed back it's just creep creep creep. Had too many games go like that this patch. |
| | Australian terran user stream twitch.tv/mfiaguz |
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| phiinix United States. May 29 2012 15:43. Posts 1124 | Profile Blog # |
Not to mention Infestors are armored so marauders do more damage. But the higher medivac count than usual is really important, if you have enough fungal barely does any damage, you just tank them.
I was slightly sad that tvt has turned into marine tank v marine tank again. I was really cheering for Taeja in that game against Bomber on Cloud Kingdom (didn't see the other games) since he was using mech. I know he made mistakes, but it seems like a mech player has to play more refined for a longer period of time to win. Get a bio force caught out of position and you're a little behind; get a mech force caught out of position and it's pretty much game over. If mech defends well, they get up a superior army, but it seems like it gets progressively harder to take bases, especially on a map like CK. Luckyfool have any thoughts on the viability or effort : profit potential of playing mech in tvt? I felt like the key to winning was maintaining an air force with banshees/ravens, but mech is already super gas intensive as it stands.Last edit: 2012-05-29 15:43:42 |
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 DivinO United States. May 29 2012 16:40. Posts 4693 | Profile Blog # |
| LuckyFool so helpful. Great analysis and interesting writing. Cheers. |
| | Ask me for help with Liquipedia Player Pages! | Proud Liquipedian and blahz0r fan | (aka pLaTypu5, El.Divino) | |
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| MCDayC United Kingdom. May 29 2012 19:09. Posts 11817 | Profile # |
On May 29 2012 12:41 Azera wrote:
I'm watching the ThorZain vs. Sheth VODs now. Is it really true that ThorZain's style is more focused on strong, direct engagements and not really harassment?
Not at all, its was a pretty weird thing for RB to write on his player card thingy. In TvZ he does a decent amount of dropping (not MMA level obviously), he just never really commits fully, so games get extended longer with him eeking out small advantages, such as his game vs Sheth on Metalopolis, where he did a terrible attack with his 1st raven viking force, and spent ages just slowly coming back into the game.
Thanks for this write up, it was cool to read!Last edit: 2012-05-29 19:12:19 |
| | VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG |
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| Madera May 29 2012 21:39. Posts 2624 | Profile # |
I was going to speed through the majority of the replays today so this will be super helpful. I know you did the same thing with the replays from IPL4(?) so mad props to you! <3
It'll be interesting to watch and play around with the bio style since a lot of Zergs have shifted towards ling infestor without baneling support. I really like the idea of putting on a lot of pressure while maintaining a high medivac count so you can just take damage from the fungals and be fine. It's also a good idea to mix in some thors in the late-game to provide some splash against brood lords even though your vikings will deal the majority of the damage, so you don't just sit with a high bank and idle factories. |
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| jakek95 United Kingdom. May 29 2012 22:51. Posts 351 | Profile # |
This is exactly what i need thank you!!!!
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| Froadac United States. May 29 2012 23:25. Posts 5642 | Profile Blog # |
Very helpful. All of the illusion games were interesting, although not all instructional.
And my god: the stats page is epic.Last edit: 2012-05-29 23:38:34 |
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| TheRealNanMan United States. May 29 2012 23:32. Posts 1230 | Profile Blog # |
Thanks for this awesome write up Rob! I'm going to be passing this on to the terran players in LXG.
Sadly I was unable to watch any games live this weekend. But knowing that all the replays are online I'm going to have to go and check out some of these games. I noticed that you focused on TvZ and TvT will you be going over any TvP matches or are there any that you would recommend?? |
| | Sc2 Caster for Playhem, AGL, SPGL, ESEA & DC LAN | Host of Sc2 Up & Coming | The Godfather of Team LXG | Youtube.com/NanMan | Twitch.tv/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/TheRealNanMan | Twitter.com/Sc2UPandComing | |
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| jakek95 United Kingdom. May 29 2012 23:43. Posts 351 | Profile # |
| I cant actually find any replays but the MC vs Bomber metro??? |
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| Messi United States. May 30 2012 00:04. Posts 208 | Profile # | |
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| LuckyFool United States. May 30 2012 00:45. Posts 8292 | Profile Blog # |
@phiinix
Mech in TvT is map dependent I feel. Sometimes bio vs mech looks unwinnable for bio (or hopes the mech makes mistakes) but it's still really up to players preference as to what styles they play. I really like how you see marine tank, mech and pure bio styles in TvT. Really makes the matchup one of the most diverse.
@nanman
Didn't see much real interesting TvP from this event in general so I didn't focus on it. I thought the bomber/squirtle and bomber/mc series were both kind of bland.Last edit: 2012-05-30 00:45:56 |
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| xxSK8rGUy277xx May 30 2012 02:14. Posts 176 | Profile # |
| Thanks for this Luckyfool. When you plan on streaming again? :o |
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| zezamer Finland. May 30 2012 02:55. Posts 1805 | Profile # |
| Is there a vod of lastshadow squirtle game ? |
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| Effay United States. May 30 2012 03:28. Posts 140 | Profile # |
Cool blog.
I recently started playing Terran but haven't been sure what to do, looking at these games will definitely point me in the right direction. |
| | Obsession: The weak minded's name for dedication |
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