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| Reithan United States. May 30 2012 05:09. Posts 351 | Profile Blog # |
Ok, I'm putting this post and replay here just out of sheer dumbfoundedness. That's a word now. I promise.
Was playing a couple warmup matches in random custom games before I did some laddering, and I got matched up against a Master League Protoss player...and I beat him? I didn't cheese, didn't do anything insane...just played a straight up macro game and...won? I am shocked.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aRv02.jpg)
Game started out with him doing some haras of my drones with his probe. I took the opportunity to sneak a drone out and get my natural down without getting blocked. He didn't get any kills. Win for me.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IgbMV.jpg)
Playing pretty standard, got a good scout of his base, but managed to lose my OL to a stalker by overstaying my welcome. They're faster now...but they're still not 'fast'. I see him moving out around 9:30 with an immortal, a few sentries and a probe. I figure he'd going to plant a pylon and it looks like he's beelining for my 3rd.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SPfV3.jpg)
Sure enough, the OL that was busy trying to get into position to spot pylons, gets killed while doing just that. I'm worried about the supply block, and I have the roach warren up, but I've been messed up going roaches vs immortal a lot of times, so I decide to go lings and pop out a few more OLs and strat massing lings against his attack.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o9D9I.jpg)
The queens I've moved into position at the 3rd manage to snipe off his warp prism and cancel a full warp in, while the continuous stream of lings and 2 spines make short work of his push...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KmbDY.jpg)
...while a handful of lings sent around to the pylon ensure the warp in doesn't get redirected there, either.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ljA2e.jpg)
With the leftover lings I go get a scout of his 3rd, which hasn't gone down yet and I find some immortals and sentries moving outside his base with some zealots. I decide to try to snipe off the sentry and maybe the immortal. I get them all pretty low and force him to burn some FFs, but only manage to kill 1 of 4 sentries.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9iCaC.jpg)
Continuing to use warp prisms, he tries to snipe off my spire which I barely stop...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NAa9n.jpg)
...only to have him come back and finish it off a little later.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RdOUq.jpg)
There's some fighting in the middle of the map when I see him moving some units around. There's some units traded but nothing severe.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Evov9.jpg)
He pulls back and I go in to try to snipe his 3rd, or some colossi.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ny0UQ.jpg)
I get a few colossus to low health, but I do manage to drop his 3rd nexus, losing most of my army in the process.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MxhrZ.jpg)
Noting that he's still very colossus heavy with no real stalker count to speak of, I rebuild with muta/roach and catch him trying to move out again. One good flank and he calls the gg, even throwing in a 'wp'. When I checked his league after the match, I was just shocked. I don't know if he was playing bad, or I was playing good. But this is definitely a feather in MY cap.
Has anyone else ever managed a good convincing victory against someone much higher league? Isn't that just a killer feeling?Last edit: 2012-05-30 05:24:13
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| | http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan |
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| Nydus Wurm United States. May 30 2012 05:16. Posts 41 | Profile Blog # |
Back in Brood War, I five-pooled a Korean on iCup. Does that count? He was like B, I was D-
regardless, gg to you, mate |
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| _mmK Sweden. May 30 2012 05:27. Posts 10 | Profile # |
GG wp  I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T |
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| HyperionDreamer Canada. May 30 2012 05:31. Posts 1053 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Reminds me of proxy gating an A- player on iccup back in bw when I was C+, the season before I got B-. I lost terribly but at least it took him 35 minutes to kill me instead of 2 minutes. |
| | BW4life! Jaedong ~ Savior ~ Shine ; "drowning sorrows in late night infomercials" - bnYsooch |
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| fabiano Brazil. May 30 2012 05:45. Posts 3928 | Profile Blog # |
Once, back in 2009 when I was just starting playing BW, I "beat" a C protoss player on Python (or was it Lost Temple?) because he built his 2 gate rush with a pylon inside his base and the gateways outside. Unfortunately for him when his zealots spawned they were stuck between the cliff, the gates and a second pylon he built next to his gates.
Then I sent a single zealot to his base and as soon as he saw it he just left lol
Notice that back then I believed there was no reason to build more than 1 building of each, and I had less than 10 BW games under my belt, had no idea that BW was a huge scene in Korea and hadn't found about TL yet.
To make it clearer: it was as if I were Bronze leaguer vs a top 3 control in the world Grand MasterLast edit: 2012-05-30 05:46:48 |
| | "When the geyser died, a probe came out" - SirJolt |
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| n.DieJokes United States. May 30 2012 06:37. Posts 3281 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard. |
| | ＭｙＬｏｖｅ + Ｙｏｕｒ Ｌｏｖｅ= Ｓｕｐａ Ｌｏｖｅ |
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 Sergio1992 Italy. May 30 2012 06:45. Posts 521 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
it does work.
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| Jugan United States. May 30 2012 07:29. Posts 1450 | Profile Blog # |
| Good job, I like how you sent a few lings to kill off that pylon. A lot of people forget to do little things like that, and it could make the difference in the game. Keep up that macro |
| | Even a Savior couldn't fix all problems. |
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| MysteryMeat1 United States. May 30 2012 07:38. Posts 1255 | Profile Blog # |
| Nice job but did you check his main race played. I know my brother plays on my account mid-masters in custom games. he's like silver since he doesn't play 1v1. He hates getting messaged after games in custom how he sux and shouldn't be in masters. Its quite funny. |
| | I'm an egg breaker http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=363033 "MVP King of wings" #1 Choya Fanboi!!! <3 |
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| Dfgj Singapore. May 30 2012 07:59. Posts 5593 | Profile # |
On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
I tried T, made lotsa units and beat some master Z/P/T. It can work!
I remember when I was playing iCCup, beat a last-season B- as a D+ in a standard game. Then I checked his profile and saw he was just playing a different race this season. Still felt good. |
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| HyperionDreamer Canada. May 30 2012 08:02. Posts 1053 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
It works with any race. I'm surprised how many players I run into in high masters on NA who actually don't know what the fuck is going on in a game, but they can keep up for the midgame because they have rehearsed standard openings enough that they have decent macro.
On May 30 2012 07:38 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Nice job but did you check his main race played. I know my brother plays on my account mid-masters in custom games. he's like silver since he doesn't play 1v1. He hates getting messaged after games in custom how he sux and shouldn't be in masters. Its quite funny.
Yeah I do this as well. I'm high master zerg but I often play random customs as toss just for the lolz. I'd say my toss is no better than diamond so I lose a lot of games to random builds that I've never seen before and just general making mistakes since I don't know the race.
I also get a lot of BM when I lose like "how the fck are you top masters noob l0l0l0l," was one I got the day before yesterday when I lost to a 1-1-1 from a plat terran. |
| | BW4life! Jaedong ~ Savior ~ Shine ; "drowning sorrows in late night infomercials" - bnYsooch |
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| Reithan United States. May 30 2012 09:37. Posts 351 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 07:38 MysteryMeat1 wrote:
Nice job but did you check his main race played. I know my brother plays on my account mid-masters in custom games. he's like silver since he doesn't play 1v1. He hates getting messaged after games in custom how he sux and shouldn't be in masters. Its quite funny.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Vv29B.jpg)
His main race is Protoss, 65.57% win rate.
Even if he was off-racing and was only Diamond-level...beating a Diamond Toss would still make me happy.  |
| | http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan |
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| ninazerg United States. May 30 2012 10:53. Posts 1947 | Profile Blog # |
| I'm just going to say congratulations and not belittle your accomplishment. |
| | Holder of Excalibur, savior of Eria. | |
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| n.DieJokes United States. May 30 2012 11:20. Posts 3281 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 08:02 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
It works with any race. I'm surprised how many players I run into in high masters on NA who actually don't know what the fuck is going on in a game, but they can keep up for the midgame because they have rehearsed standard openings enough that they have decent macro.
I'm telling you in doesn't work. I one rax cc into slam out a fucking ton of units and rely on my bw mechanics to save me every game against all three races. I have at best rudamentary micro, my computer lags in fights over 100 supply so there's really only so much I can do. High diamond two seasons ago with pretty abysmal tvz. I am 100% sure you need to know something besides how to macro to get to masters; you're probably undervaluing this information because it comes second nature to you |
| | ＭｙＬｏｖｅ + Ｙｏｕｒ Ｌｏｖｅ= Ｓｕｐａ Ｌｏｖｅ |
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| HyperionDreamer Canada. May 30 2012 11:48. Posts 1053 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 11:20 n.DieJokes wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On May 30 2012 08:02 HyperionDreamer wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
It works with any race. I'm surprised how many players I run into in high masters on NA who actually don't know what the fuck is going on in a game, but they can keep up for the midgame because they have rehearsed standard openings enough that they have decent macro.
I'm telling you in doesn't work. I one rax cc into slam out a fucking ton of units and rely on my bw mechanics to save me every game against all three races. I have at best rudamentary micro, my computer lags in fights over 100 supply so there's really only so much I can do. High diamond two seasons ago with pretty abysmal tvz. I am 100% sure you need to know something besides how to macro to get to masters; you're probably undervaluing this information because it comes second nature to you
Well, just because you aren't masters doesn't immediately mean that it doesn't work..... Macro encompasses a lot more than just keeping your money below 400, it's about making the right decisions on how to spend your money at the right times. For example, I would consider all of the following things part of "macro":
- Build order knowledge and execution (eg. 14pool fast 3 hatch vs 16 hatch vs overpool with gas)
- If playing zerg, knowledge of the interplay between drones and units.
- Upgrade timing
- Scouting
- Unit composition theory (Since there's no point spending your money on roaches when you are getting attacked by voidrays).
- Matchup theory (Say knowing the general flow of ZvT, which encompasses getting map control back from terran, taking a third and droning it safely, getting to infestor tech or muta tech, etc etc....)
There's a whole crapton more though. You've answered your own question, you said your tvz is pretty abysmal. Do you go 1 rax cc into hellion or like 4 rax pressure like people are doing a lot these days? |
| | BW4life! Jaedong ~ Savior ~ Shine ; "drowning sorrows in late night infomercials" - bnYsooch |
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| Reithan United States. May 30 2012 12:08. Posts 351 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 11:48 HyperionDreamer wrote:
- Upgrade timing
- Scouting
- Unit composition theory (Since there's no point spending your money on roaches when you are getting attacked by voidrays).
- Matchup theory (Say knowing the general flow of ZvT, which encompasses getting map control back from terran, taking a third and droning it safely, getting to infestor tech or muta tech, etc etc....)
I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say these things aren't included under the header of Macro at ALL. The fact that you DO group them under Macro makes your advice of just macroing harder all the way into Masters of even less value than that advice usually is.
The header of macro, as far as I understood, encompasses builds, keeping your money low, learning how/when/why to expand, economic management (i.e: when do I get gas?) etc.
Macro does not include things like metagame, strategy, scouting & reacting to your opponent, etc. Macro is the engine that runs your machine...but you still have to steer. 
I will AGREE that you can macro your way all they way to Diamond on straight macro and mechanics alone...but Masters I think requires just a LITTLE BIT more. Not much, just a little, and as he said, that small boost you need to get into Masters is probably information and skills you're undervaluing because they seem 'obvious' to you. Just like macro seems obvious.
Macro harder/better/faster/stronger is horrible advice. Not because it's wrong, it is most certainly correct. But it's UNHELPFUL. It is a statement with no content or meaning. If the players asking for advice knew how to macro better, I have a feeling they would. Just advising them to do so WILL NOT HELP.
What you COULD say that would be helpful is specific advice like:
-You need to make sure you're not getting supply blocked
-Find a good opening build order and practice getting it down perfect under stress
-Keep your minerals AND gas low throughout the game until you're maxed out.
-etc
All of these are specific things a player can improve on, and can practice and are actual information about how to improve. "Macro better" is not. It's like someone asking for directions to your house and you just saying, "Well, you just need to GO there." It's bullshit advice.
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| | http://www.teamliquid.net/blog/Xanthus730 ***** http://www.twitch.tv/reithan |
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| HyperionDreamer Canada. May 31 2012 02:15. Posts 1053 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 12:08 Reithan wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
On May 30 2012 11:48 HyperionDreamer wrote:
- Upgrade timing
- Scouting
- Unit composition theory (Since there's no point spending your money on roaches when you are getting attacked by voidrays).
- Matchup theory (Say knowing the general flow of ZvT, which encompasses getting map control back from terran, taking a third and droning it safely, getting to infestor tech or muta tech, etc etc....)
I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say these things aren't included under the header of Macro at ALL. The fact that you DO group them under Macro makes your advice of just macroing harder all the way into Masters of even less value than that advice usually is. The header of macro, as far as I understood, encompasses builds, keeping your money low, learning how/when/why to expand, economic management (i.e: when do I get gas?) etc. Macro does not include things like metagame, strategy, scouting & reacting to your opponent, etc. Macro is the engine that runs your machine...but you still have to steer. I will AGREE that you can macro your way all they way to Diamond on straight macro and mechanics alone...but Masters I think requires just a LITTLE BIT more. Not much, just a little, and as he said, that small boost you need to get into Masters is probably information and skills you're undervaluing because they seem 'obvious' to you. Just like macro seems obvious. Macro harder/better/faster/stronger is horrible advice. Not because it's wrong, it is most certainly correct. But it's UNHELPFUL. It is a statement with no content or meaning. If the players asking for advice knew how to macro better, I have a feeling they would. Just advising them to do so WILL NOT HELP. What you COULD say that would be helpful is specific advice like: -You need to make sure you're not getting supply blocked -Find a good opening build order and practice getting it down perfect under stress -Keep your minerals AND gas low throughout the game until you're maxed out. -etc All of these are specific things a player can improve on, and can practice and are actual information about how to improve. "Macro better" is not. It's like someone asking for directions to your house and you just saying, "Well, you just need to GO there." It's bullshit advice.
Yeah sure if you don't want to put them under macro that's your definition. I only define macro as a set of decisions which tell you where to spend your money and when to spend it there, and as such I include scouting/reacting, matchup understanding, etc etc....
Just saying "holy crap that guy never misses an scv" doesn't mean he has great macro. He could never get supply blocked and never miss a marine or scv but still be in bronze because he's not scouting or expanding or taking advantage of timings. That means his macro is actually terrible, not good.
I agree that telling someone to macro better is in general unhelpful advice, since it encompasses so many things that it's like telling someone "just go to my house" like you said. That's why this isn't a specific help thread with no replays or anything. But I still stand by my point 100% that you can get into to masters with good macro (not just masters, I believe TOP masters maybe bordering on GM).Last edit: 2012-05-31 02:15:47 |
| | BW4life! Jaedong ~ Savior ~ Shine ; "drowning sorrows in late night infomercials" - bnYsooch |
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| -Kaiser- Canada. May 31 2012 06:06. Posts 544 | Profile Blog # |
On May 30 2012 11:20 n.DieJokes wrote:
Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 08:02 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 06:37 n.DieJokes wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:31 HyperionDreamer wrote:
On May 30 2012 05:27 _mmK wrote:GG wp I wish that I could someday be a proud master but being six seasons straight in diamond is abit... depressing T.T
Macro harder and masters is ezpz. All that you gotta do is make so many units that you can attack move right over your opponent.
Doesn't work with Terran, I've tried. Hard.
It works with any race. I'm surprised how many players I run into in high masters on NA who actually don't know what the fuck is going on in a game, but they can keep up for the midgame because they have rehearsed standard openings enough that they have decent macro.
I'm telling you in doesn't work. I one rax cc into slam out a fucking ton of units and rely on my bw mechanics to save me every game against all three races. I have at best rudamentary micro, my computer lags in fights over 100 supply so there's really only so much I can do. High diamond two seasons ago with pretty abysmal tvz. I am 100% sure you need to know something besides how to macro to get to masters; you're probably undervaluing this information because it comes second nature to you
If you think your macro is good enough, it can be better. Other than that, if you think your macro is good enough then you aren't being efficient enough with your units. I recommend trying mech if you have trouble controlling large bio armies. If you want to keep playing bio, I would recommend some simple multi-pronged drop harassment with a midgame marine/tank push.
The big question that will help you is what makes you lose? What changes can you make that will avoid those pitfalls or make them irrelevant? |
| | "Perhaps love is the process of my gently leading you back to yourself." |
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| phiinix United States. May 31 2012 12:05. Posts 1126 | Profile Blog # |
Nice job. He could have played a really terrible game, or was trying a new build, etc, etc, but regardless, it's a nice accomplishment.
As a pro tip for playing custom matches, never ever check the profile before you play, it can really screw with your head. Just play your best every game. |
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