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| Setz3R United States. May 31 2012 15:09. Posts 453 | Profile Blog # |
Hello all, I was at work today and watched a couple of NASL games, read a couple forum posts, but it really got me thinking...
How old is too old to pro game?
In every other sport, there is typically a "young and inexperienced" beginning to every career. Then, they evolve over time as the gifted player usually rises to the top and has their "golden age" or "prime" time of whatever sport they choose to play. Later, you get into the years where everyone can sniff out your retirement. North American Football, more than other sports, seems to be the one where your career can really fly quickly. Followed my basketball, baseball, every sport has a point where experience can no longer pull the weight versus the much quicker younger person.
In the early 2000's when the professional gaming scene was just a baby, many younger high school kids were the professionals of eSports. Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel won a CPL and WCG in one year, and had more great success thereafter. All the while professional gaming was starting to spark in the United States, it had already been adopted by most Europeans, and of course, Koreans. Many players like Wendel are still choosing to professionally game today, while many others have split off and resumed normal lives. I watch players now like Stephano, Feast, Flash, MC, etc...most people 21 or under and am amazed by the sheer speed, game sense, great decision making, and utmost talent at the game they all posses.
Then, there are players like the legendary BoxeR, WhiteRa, NesTea who are all active and age 28+ and still playing Starcraft competitively. These players have many years of experience under their belt. They make great decisions and have amazing game sense as well, but they do move as fast as their younger counter-parts? Do they still have what it takes to compete? Some people would say so--and honestly, I would never count anyone out of a series based on their age.
I guess what I'm trying to ask is, do you guys think that someone who has never played competitive RTS/Starcraft, and is also much older than the "average" age of professional gamers (let's call this number, 22 years old to 28), has a shot of making it big if they started now? I think most of us can agree people who have previous RTS or Starcraft experience can generally do well even if they are in this age group, so I'm curious about the thoughts of RTS players who are springing up now. Also, for players who reaches 30+ years of age, when do you think someone should stop? Does age even play a factor in this sport? I'd definitely love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
Thanks, and if you actually read everything, SUPER thanks.
TL;DR - What age should you start thinking about professional gaming seriously? When should you stop thinking about it?
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| Shock710 Australia. May 31 2012 15:16. Posts 2926 | Profile Blog # |
| never too OLD!! WHITE-RA forever! lol, i dont think u can be too old, unless u cant move ur fingers. If u have the motivation to play i dont see anyone couldnt, maybe in professorial rts, there MIGHT be an age limit, i'm guess its just probaby to due if ur fingers can keep up with what u want them to do (they might have slowed down reflexes or something i dont know, or just been worn out) if someone is "old" and interested in it, i dont see why they could play. =) Last edit: 2012-05-31 15:16:29 |
| | The day before christmas my true love gave to me: Teamliquid | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- |
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| SkyBlaze Canada. May 31 2012 15:24. Posts 157 | Profile # |
great read, but personally on the age I would think any time is fine, as along as you can use a mouse and keyboard. Also be be able to read. Any time is a good time but it will take a lot of work and most "pro gamers" didn't start by think I'm going to make millions off this game. They just played for fun, and that how it starts for most pro in any field(sports and in "pro gaming").
As for the age for quitting or retiring it up to the person if you talking about "pro gaming" due to to the fact of Grand masters chess players and Grand master pianist, with their age. Still can play with the best. but if it's sports I would say it depends on how long that person think's his/her physical body could last under such pressure of heavy physical training each day.Last edit: 2012-05-31 15:28:52 |
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| StarBrift Sweden. May 31 2012 15:48. Posts 1668 | Profile # |
Really depends on the game. In brood war youd see stuff like people going over the 25 year age getting slower and not being able to keep up with younger players. But that might also have been a combination of slower reaction times and a lesser motivation to practise hard (since they had being going hard for about 6 years allready).
Sc2 is not even close to the level where reaction time loss is going to matter. It might take slightly longer to learn stuff but otherwise I see nothing stopping it. Maybe in 5 years sc2 will be dominated by 20 year olds but not any time soon.
I did the majority of my macro/mechanics training from the age of 17-22 in brood war. I didn't really play 24/7 but during those years I got most of my fundamentals down. That being said I still got some of my fastest improvements to multitasking and macro at the age 26 (am now 27) in sc2. I honestly feel like the only thing stopping me from becoming a LOT better is the time I'm willing to spend on the game. Not the fact that my body is 5 years older than an "ideal" progamer.
Starting to learn RTS seriously after 25 though could be a problem. If you haven't stockpiled any fundamentals from other games or your earlier years. Simply because of the sheer ammount of time and effort you need to put into stuff like building stamina and getting used to pushing your mind to the limit without falling apart. |
| | Jaedong asks you 'how do you practice and what mentality do you keep during your games?' Flash: Well, I just practice really hard. And during games I think "LOL U CANT BEAT ME" keke |
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| Scarecrow Korea (South). May 31 2012 16:01. Posts 4579 | Profile Blog # |
Depends on the game. You're pushing it in your mid-late 20's for BW due to mechanics and speed required.
SC2 is less demanding in that sense so you still see guys like Nestea/Nada being successful though I still feel younger players will generally be faster and do better with proper coaching.
I imagine you could play pro LoL into your 40's
I feel the age cap for pro-gaming is mostly RL/family commitments coupled with reduced hand speed/mental agility. The experience can offset the speed issues but there'll still be great young players who learn to think like the oldies but execute it faster.
As to your question. No. Someone starting their first RTS in their late 20's/early 30's has almost no chance of making it big. Their brain has stopped learning so efficiently whilst they're up against younger, faster and more experienced players.Last edit: 2012-05-31 16:07:42 |
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| Syrupjuice United States. May 31 2012 16:01. Posts 172 | Profile Blog # |
I would agree with some of the other replies and say that any age would probably be okay to think about going pro. I believe the main factor that should be taken into account would be the overall scope of your personal situation. If you're 18 and heading into a not so prestigious instate university studying computer science, then you can probably dedicate a lot of time to playing and developing your skill set to fit the pro standards. You may be able to get the skills up in time to take a shot at it before you get bombarded with student loan payments and have to worry about other responsibilities such as a normal job after school. However, if you're 28, you may still be in an okay situation to try to go pro, but you may also not be. If you're 28, swamped with debt and have people depending on you (financially mainly), then you probably don't have the luxury to devote hours into a game unless you are on the cusp of that pro level and have the type of personality and looks that can bring a nice return of investment to sponsors/teams. On the flipside of that, if you do not have a lot of responsibilities or things to worry about, then yeah, you may be able to put the time and effort in easily.
Either way, I think it is more your life situations than you age that limit your potential to pursue a career in professional gaming. About the only thing age will do is help to determine what kind of life state you are in. But older people, who take care of their bodies and minds, are more than capable of keeping up with the younger competitors.
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| Nonexistent United States. May 31 2012 17:17. Posts 49 | Profile # |
| I think the older the gamer gets, the harder it is to rationalize their profession, and keep their mind focused on training. |
| | "If I had force-fields in Brood War, I'd never lose." - Bisu |
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| XenOsky- Chile. May 31 2012 21:34. Posts 744 | Profile Blog # |
| between 16 and early 20s is a good age for progaming. |
| | En el este y el oeste, en el norte y en el sur... Brillará blanca y celeste, la Academia Racing Club! |
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| Logo United States. May 31 2012 21:35. Posts 2645 | Profile Blog # |
No. But I don't think it's a physical or mental limitation, well it could be, but that's not the biggest issue.
By 22-28 your opportunity cost of investing time to becoming a pro-gamer is so high, the risk of failure is so great, and the payoff is so small (you'll have a really shortened career unless you transition into casting or something and it may not be a very lucrative career to begin with) that it's foolish. Even with prior RTS experience you'd be in trouble.
If you take that spare time and invest it into whatever practical career you find interesting you'll probably get a lot further or at least have a better worst case outcome. If you try for progaming and fail you may find yourself 30 with no real career future and/or no significant other/social life (if you're trying to play 40+hrs a week and work 40+hrs a week something has to give). Now if you play hobbyist SC2, compete in local tournaments, etc. that's fine and maybe if you're good enough you'll fall into a progaming opportunity, but a serious push for that sort of thing would be foolish unless you're really satisfied with the rest of your life and have a ton of spare time.
Opportunity is a big factor in being a progamer (I believe someone like incontrol has said that in the past). Chances are if you're 20+ with a full time job you don't have the opportunity. Now maybe you're some rich guy who can do nothing and still be secure financially now and in the future with a dedicated and understanding significant other... in that case go for it. Just don't be surprised when you shoulder turns to ground meat and your wrist falls off  .
Again my advice is if you're 20+ aim for playing local tournaments instead (or start some of your own?). You'll satisfy the itch of playing in front of a crowd or for casted games without putting all your eggs in one basket and the level of competition is such that you can have a shot even if you aren't pro/signed to a contract.
Plus it's not easy to catch up, a few gamers have done it, but to go from nothing to a high level of play is not easy. Don't put any stock into any of the 'I got masters with no experience in X time' stories. Getting to master's is the beginning, and easiest part, of playing any sort of competitive SC2.
At the same time I'm upper 20s and my APM hasn't really dipped, it's not amazing, but it's not terribly low (upper 100s with no problem spiking to 300+) and I don't find it any harder to multitask or anything like that. I think a lot of the perception of people's skills degrading so much are either from wearing out your arm or not having as much time to invest in gaming.Last edit: 2012-05-31 21:42:48 |
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| Crownlol United States. May 31 2012 22:02. Posts 1452 | Profile Blog # |
Dead on, Logo ^^
The common misconception is that the human mind gets slower with age, the "old dog new tricks" idiom. However, studies have proven that the mind actually gets faster and more efficient as time goes on. Which is one of the reasons you meet those old people who know freaking everything. One of the reasons that old people tend to be cranky is not that they're losing touch with what's going on, but their minds are capable of noticing more things, and have lost their ability to tune things out. This means they can hear the person they're conversing with AND the little kid chattering at them, instead of one or the other.
However, the limiting factor on progaming lifespan is simply opportunity cost. At a young age, you literally have no other goals or responsibilities. As time goes on, you have a lot of other things to worry about and pay for, and if you aren't making enough for it to be as lucrative as a "normal" career with similar time investment, it just isn't worth it. |
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| jdsowa May 31 2012 22:14. Posts 368 | Profile # |
On May 31 2012 22:02 Crownlol wrote:
Dead on, Logo ^^
The common misconception is that the human mind gets slower with age, the "old dog new tricks" idiom. However, studies have proven that the mind actually gets faster and more efficient as time goes on. Which is one of the reasons you meet those old people who know freaking everything. One of the reasons that old people tend to be cranky is not that they're losing touch with what's going on, but their minds are capable of noticing more things, and have lost their ability to tune things out. This means they can hear the person they're conversing with AND the little kid chattering at them, instead of one or the other.
However, the limiting factor on progaming lifespan is simply opportunity cost. At a young age, you literally have no other goals or responsibilities. As time goes on, you have a lot of other things to worry about and pay for, and if you aren't making enough for it to be as lucrative as a "normal" career with similar time investment, it just isn't worth it.
Hm.. Not quite sure about this. The reason why old people know a lot is because they've been alive two to three times as long as you have. They have simply accumulated knowledge over years and years. Nothing to do with any special capacity to learn more things at once.
The reason why old people are cranky is because they're extra sensitive to annoyance. They've spent a long lifetime being irritated by certain things, and they've become hyper aware. After the age of 30 life starts to get very repetitive. Most people stop taking in new information after the age of 25. People stop looking for new music, stop being curious about books, philosophy, religion, etc. So your values are established, and you settle into a routine, and anything that impinges upon that is an annoyance. |
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| imCookies United States. May 31 2012 22:46. Posts 80 | Profile Blog # |
I do not think there is a definitive age for when it is too old to be a pro gamer. One of the cool things about gaming is that almost anyone at any age can play; then again it would be harder as you grow older to multitask and keep up with those who are younger.
I wouldn't be surprised if some pros stayed on until their forties, it is entirely possible, just the threshold for success diminishes as you get older. |
| | Milk n Cookies, the snack of pros. |
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| Clockworkkkk June 01 2012 00:57. Posts 21 | Profile # |
| early 20s is a good age to move on from competitive gaming. but that is just opinion there's really never a age limit where you need to quit gaming if its your passion you should keep doing it if its what you enjoy. |
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| Th1rdEye United States. June 01 2012 02:43. Posts 809 | Profile Blog # |
| The thing is, most people that age have lot of responsibilities.. typically. |
| | high masters (NA,EU,KR) zerg stream: http://www.twitch.tv/galaxyzerg ! |
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| HeeroFX United States. June 01 2012 03:30. Posts 1915 | Profile Blog # |
| I think if you are finiacially secure you could do it as long as you could. I also think if you are mentally willing and you have a good mind for the game you can play for a very long time. Granted you may not be as fast as other people, but the beauty of a lot of games is that sometimes great strats can overcome ability. |
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| Angel_ United States. June 01 2012 03:36. Posts 1615 | Profile Blog # |
i think the "30 is too old and age starts to factor in now and slow you down" is just bullshit, really. Men enter their prime in their early thirties as is. Sure the strain on your body from a decade of RTS gaming can kick in by then and you can see it in some players (like boxer who has shoulder problems now) or just being tired of the lifestyle. But your brain isn't slower or even slowing down yet at 30, and the experience should really be kicking in.
That said, my problem with the sc2 pro scene is...if you were looking to get into it, you have to be looking with the mindset of "okay im getting into a game that's not actually going to really be OUT for another six years probably. THEN we can see where it goes and how long it lasts." That might sound really good from a "well im guaranteed a job at least then" perspective, but at the same time it's really kind of iffy if you're at the higher borderline age where might have to consider "hey im 32 and have no experience with my degree/haven't finished my degree", or even if you're younger than that. I'm only 23 and purely as a fan i go...if this game lasts (which frankly i sort of doubt and it makes me sad), it might not reach it's full peak until im like 38, assuming it takes off AFTER LOTV and probably a good year or two of patching (assuming blizzard ever stops patching and babysitting their fanbase). Last edit: 2012-06-01 03:37:09 |
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| AnachronisticAnarchy United States. June 01 2012 04:06. Posts 2292 | Profile Blog # |
People's minds begin to lose the ability to optimally utilise new information as they age. Most people's major accomplishments occur before they turn 40. I'd say a first timer who was pretty old would have some troubles, but only mental ones, and even those can be overcome with enough effort.
I remember being linked a video a while ago, it showed some old man play a piano at insane speeds. That pretty much debunked any beliefs I had correlating age to low APM right then and there. |
| | "How are you?" "I am fine, because it is not normal to scream in pain." |
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| tMomiji United States. June 01 2012 04:28. Posts 1115 | Profile Blog # |
| Haha, guess that means I'm too old (21) to try to break into the big leagues. But I'd still like to try just a little bit. My ultimate dream is winning an IPL! (Like that's ever going to happen!) But I really should have listened to my friend and tried to break into StarCraft earlier...kind of regretting the decision not to until now. |
| | "I wonder if there is a league below copper? If so, I would like to inhabit it." -TotalBiscuit "In the event of a sudden change in cabin pressure, ROOF FLIES OFF!" -George Carlin <3 HerO <3 Kiwikaki <3 MKP |
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| Demonhunter04 June 01 2012 04:44. Posts 1470 | Profile # |
One thing people overlooked is that activities you do while your brain is developing (until age 24 at latest) influence your brain's growth. People who have not played a game similar to SC2 before that age will have great difficulty becoming really good at it, but others who have been playing since before that age can continue with some degree of slowing down due to slower reaction speeds. Reaction times aren't nearly as big an issue in RTS when compared to FPS though.
The brain still grows and adapts past that age, but not nearly as dramatically.
On June 01 2012 03:36 Angel_ wrote:
i think the "30 is too old and age starts to factor in now and slow you down" is just bullshit, really. Men enter their prime in their early thirties as is. Sure the strain on your body from a decade of RTS gaming can kick in by then and you can see it in some players (like boxer who has shoulder problems now) or just being tired of the lifestyle. But your brain isn't slower or even slowing down yet at 30, and the experience should really be kicking in.
That said, my problem with the sc2 pro scene is...if you were looking to get into it, you have to be looking with the mindset of "okay im getting into a game that's not actually going to really be OUT for another six years probably. THEN we can see where it goes and how long it lasts." That might sound really good from a "well im guaranteed a job at least then" perspective, but at the same time it's really kind of iffy if you're at the higher borderline age where might have to consider "hey im 32 and have no experience with my degree/haven't finished my degree", or even if you're younger than that. I'm only 23 and purely as a fan i go...if this game lasts (which frankly i sort of doubt and it makes me sad), it might not reach it's full peak until im like 38, assuming it takes off AFTER LOTV and probably a good year or two of patching (assuming blizzard ever stops patching and babysitting their fanbase).
Men reach their prime around 24, when their brain has finished developing. The rate at which a person's cognitive function declines varies hugely; some people lose very little through their lives. |
| | "If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow" - SlayerSMMA |
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| Setz3R United States. June 01 2012 05:56. Posts 453 | Profile Blog # |
On May 31 2012 21:35 Logo wrote:
If you take that spare time and invest it into whatever practical career you find interesting you'll probably get a lot further or at least have a better worst case outcome. If you try for progaming and fail you may find yourself 30 with no real career future and/or no significant other/social life (if you're trying to play 40+hrs a week and work 40+hrs a week something has to give). Now if you play hobbyist SC2, compete in local tournaments, etc. that's fine and maybe if you're good enough you'll fall into a progaming opportunity, but a serious push for that sort of thing would be foolish unless you're really satisfied with the rest of your life and have a ton of spare time.
This is another great thing I wanted to touch up on! I was actually going to make this blog a series of pro-gamer related discussion questions (might still do that), but this is one thing that was HUGE I was thinking about today. When I was younger throughout junior high (middle school for you other guys) and high school, I was pretty much playing Playstation, WoW, Warcraft 3 and Counter-Strike daily for 15+ hours a day without any real repercussions to my ability to live. Now past college, and engineering in a recording studio, 15 hours a day are spent just working, while the other hours are needed for me to sleep! There is absolutely no time to perfect craft past 23, unless like you said, you're just someone who is financial stable and can devote that much time.
This leads me to conclude, that time is actually the most relevant factor in determination of professional eSports athletes, and honestly, everything in the world. It is pretty sad, but even though when we are younger the time seems to stand still, once you reach a certain point it's like I can't stop time. Most people are praised for being young and having certain skill sets at certain ages (especially musicians and sports players), but in reality...if you want to make an impact...it is much easier to start younger! |
| | BNet: SetzeR.456 lets play :) |
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