Every thread I read about the game seems to blame balance for T's recent run of poor form. That the game isn't fun anymore because they feel it's unbalanced. GET OVER YOURSELVES. You all complained at the beginning that the game was too easy. The game just wasn't good enough and that it was too easy. Now there's some difficulty to the game, your race is now weak. Play through the pain, try and experiment. So what if your rank tanks, if there really is an imbalance then when it is rectified you'll be better for it. When Zerg was by far the weakest race at the beginning....any kind of outcry by the zerg was met by 'l2p n00bs' and shit like that. But obviously we have progressed nearly 2 years down the line. Instead of those people saying l2p...they're now saying the game is imbalanced.
'I quit the game because of the ridiculous state of T'....well fuck me...doesn't this sound like you want to be spoon fed your games. SERIOUSLY.....it's people like you that have caused the gaming industry to produce easier games, more casual games that are easy to complete. I remember playing games like sonic 2, where I would get really far, and lose every time to metal robotnik because I couldn't figure him out (last boss syndrome). I remember playing dynamite headdy and not having a clue what to do on the first level climbing the tower for what seemed like a life time....but I still played for the challenge. Games were more difficult back then...it was about difficulty...maybe if I was older back then it would have been easier, but these days I can complete a game with very little actual skill. COD is so ridiculously easy at points in single player that it's not fun.
Get over it people. If you feel sc2 is imbalanced, play another race, fuck around and when you get demoted to platinum or whatever, blame balance and just have fun with the game. Do some crazy shit until the game gets balanced (if). Who knows you mite find a new strat thats super fun.
I miss BW. We all knew that game was balanced. There's no way around questioning balance in SC2. It's the real elephant in the room. We don't know when it'll rear its head, but it'll cause damage when it does.
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TORTOISE United States. June 21 2012 09:12. Posts 513
I agree. As a Protoss player since Beta, I played for a good year and a half stretch where Terran definitely had the upper hand in a straight-up macro game (before players like AdelScott and CreatorPrime really popularized the double forge macro style we see today). I still think the Terran bioball is too strong versus gateway units, but that's a debate for another day.
However, the Queen and Overlord buffs I say were a slightly too heavyhanded approach to the problem of TvZ allins. While Terrans could win with cheesy attacks, in a straight macro game a ling/bling/brood lord style has proven to be too strong to beat. Terrans will adjust soon, however, and I feel like Blizzard should just stop balancing and let the metagame run its course. Then we might see something approaching Brood War balance.
Carpe natibus
imBLIND United States. June 21 2012 09:19. Posts 1809
I think there's two dimensions to the nerf: playing and watching. As a player, I don't care and it even makes laddering more enjoyable. I just mix a variety of all-ins, vary between bio and mech and I'll get my wins thanks to the MMR system. It might cost me a few overall ranks, but who really cares. You're totally right there.
As someone that watches pro's plays SC2, it annoys me. MKP vs Symbol today should have been sick, close series and turned into a onesided faceroll. Both are incredible at the matchup, and it would have been a much closer, more exciting series before the patch. Top terrans that used to be closely matched to top zergs, top terrans would crush mediocre zergs and top zergs would crush mediocre terrans. The matchup was pretty stable.
Now I'm biting my fingernails when MVP plays Line and MKP plays Yugioh.
Last edit: 2012-06-21 09:34:59
DRTnOOber New Zealand. June 21 2012 09:41. Posts 402
I agree with your points, although it is pretty confrontational. At the end of the day... no-one is forcing anyone to play Terran. Pick up another race if you feel it is OP and abuse its power.
I play Protoss and used to think Terran was OP. Then I switched to take advantage of it and discovered very quickly I was wrong.
And *sigh* about the BW dig... It's not even relevant to the conversation. We're talking about Starcraft 2.
Viva la Dirt League, a league below...
OptimusYale Korea (South). June 21 2012 09:45. Posts 978
What I mean about BW, is that the balance of the game is not perfect (which most people claim) but maps are made to help balance it out. I watch a bit of BW and understand that some shit is batshit crazy strong but there are ways around it which have made it balanced.
Working around it is much more exciting than just patching it, which is why BW is so awesome.
Well, Z and P players whined about balance and guess what? Blizzard buffed them + nerfed Terran. Clearly whining works. Given this, how can Z and P blame T for whining?
DRTnOOber New Zealand. June 21 2012 10:22. Posts 402
On June 21 2012 10:13 castled wrote: Well, Z and P players whined about balance and guess what? Blizzard buffed them + nerfed Terran. Clearly whining works. Given this, how can Z and P blame T for whining?
Do you think the whining of the player base was actually a major driver in Blizzard's decision to make balance changes during the patch? I would have thought from their history, they would be making adjustments based on their own tests and what is happening in e-sports.
Blizzard tend to do their own thing and not give in to the will of the players (look at WoW expansions and Diablo 3). I'd be highly surprised if the whining of the SC2 gaming community was anything more than water off a ducks back to them.
And TBH it works. If they didn't stand their ground we'd end up with mirrored races like Warcraft 2.
While I agree that more time is needed to see the true effect of the patch, I think the range upgrade for the queen was a bit much. They should've tried range 4 first then range 5 if 4 wasn't what they were looking for. I used to play Zerg when I first got SCII and I had to put up with roach range being 3, lower hp buildings, etc... but anyone saying that Zerg players didn't cry UP at the time are kidding themselves. As for Protoss, I dunno, probably not as bad as Zerg players lol but there was a large outcry about 1-1-1 and what the best method to deal with it is.
I think the problem I see is, TvZ was already hard enough mid-late game once the Zerg defended any early game aggression but now the Zerg players can defend early aggression easier and go into the late game faster which makes it harder to respond as a terran. At my level with my bad macro, I don't get as badly affected but those who are in masters+, probably see the imbalance a lot more and I can certainly understand their frustration.
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NoctemSC United States. June 21 2012 10:25. Posts 757
I don't like how you're coming off so agressive but I can agree with you on point, far too many people are whining. So you think your race is hard? That's good, it will make you better for it. You think X race is OP? That's an excuse. Unless you're top 200 in the world, balance is of no concern to you. If some random guy that you don't know can get rank 1 masters without even being pro as Terran, it means it's not affecting him that much so it shouldn't affect you either. There is ALWAYS something to improve upon.
http://www.twitch.tv/noctemsc <--Most epic fun times
I feel like the frustrating part for terran has to be how the buffs constrict terran builds. The overall strength of queens mean certain builds were made obsolete allowing the zerg more ways to cut corners and get that earlier third and fast creep spread. The overlord buff is exactly what zerg wants and needed, a more reliable form of scouting throughout the early and mid game in order to defend against all-ins that were difficult to scout. Im not interested in quick hotfixes as I feel like it takes time for players to adapt but my initial opinion is that the overlord buff is awesome while im not liking the queen buff very much.
lmao, goswser and dime sign up for a SC2 tournament, and play rock paper scissors. Some priorities they have.
from a spectator's point of view, the t v z matchup seems very tense from minute 1 to the last. t v p has also seemed back and forth to me with the exception of extreme late-game.
as a player, i feel that it's almost your *duty* to find a way to win.. regardless of what is placed in front of you. how many times have you heard of the story of olden sc:bw and how terran was obviously the weaker race out of the three? boxer still used those damn dropships man, and made them work.
it honestly gets on my nerves too, how stubborn or opinionated people can be. i seriously cannot see someone succeeding in playing or having fun in starcraft with 'clenched fi[sh]sts'..
i still love all the new blog posts and thoughts on how things are at the moment, and i know that things will look up soon, if not eventually.
one of the things i've enjoyed the most out of gaming is proving a statement wrong through relying on myself and perservering--they would usually be statements made about something i was directly linked to, even to characters/races that i enjoyed playing as.
i'm gonna throw a LoL derail here. i did f*cking fine as a lane shaco, god-damnit!
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement.
Golbat United States. June 21 2012 12:23. Posts 497
On June 21 2012 11:43 eXigent. wrote: Im getting tired of hearing the same counter argument over and over again. "When zerg was the weakest race we learned to overcome it blah blah blah". No one realizes that zergs weak state was within the first 6 MONTHS after release, when the game was actually new and still being heavily figured out. Terrans are complaining 2 YEARS into the game. How the fuck can you assume there is alot more left to figure out? Stop acting like no terran player has learned the game within the last 2years and that were just not "looking" hard enough. Such an absurd statement.
But the game IS still being figured out, and re-figured out every time there is a major balance change like the queen range buff. The SC2 of today is a different game than the one from 2 years ago.
Like why do u use an oven instead of a fire? Coz its fucking better at cooking, that doesnt mean you want the shit to burn.
ChristianS United States. June 21 2012 13:32. Posts 371
By the way, zerg "learned to overcome it" as a combination of metagame and balance patches. The infestor buff stands out in this scenario. And I don't know that the situation is all that different now than it was then. When the game first came out, a lot of people cried "Terran imba." Some people agreed, or debated balance with them. Others told them "noob l2p." Now Terran is crying imbalance. Some people agree, or argue balance with them. Others tell them learn to play.
As for my own opinion, I'm always hesitant to jump to balance. When I saw the queen buff, I definitely thought, well how am I going to stop a fast third base from zerg now? Previously hellions were an effective way to make sure zerg had to actually seize some map control before taking the third base. I refuse to allow the game to turn into something like ZvP where zerg is maxed by 12 minutes, so I do what I can to slow the zerg economy, force zerglings, and prevent a quick third base.
I do have to say, though, if it turns out that the third base from zerg can't be stopped, and I have to just allow the 13 minute max and try to fight it, I'd consider that a shortcoming in game design. Getting up to three bases of economy should be something earned, with a combination of good scouting, strong timing sense, and excellent defenses to hold off any aggression that would try to kill the macro opening before it got up. Creep spread, too, is supposed to be something that you have to earn with map control, and without hellions to threaten it, creep spread just doesn't seem stoppable.
On June 21 2012 08:55 OptimusYale wrote: You all complained at the beginning that the game was too easy. The game just wasn't good enough and that it was too easy.
Did anyone really complain that the game was too easy? That's silly. The metagame hadn't evolved much yet, sure, but that's still a ridiculous complaint. SC2 is a deep and complex game, and no one should be calling it "too easy" a few months after release.
Last edit: 2012-06-21 13:35:51
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Every time Terran finds a new play style it gets nerfed into oblivion and its basically gotten to the point where the only thing that still works is MMM and Marine Tank. Terrans have nearly a 30% winrate in TvZ, how could anyone in their right mind think this is balanced?
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