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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 01:45. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
I've been using carriers more when I can (not rushing to them) and have found some use for them. This blog therefore has been created because I heard what DB said about carriers, that he "basically needs a reason to keep them." This is the answer for it.
The breakdown: In PvZ I FFE to +1 3 zeal poke at 3rd to DT warp-in to stargate and safe 3rd of my own, at around 10 minutes usually. Zerg can't advance on my 3rd due to cannons and VRs/DT. VR/DT is flimsy; a hydra or infestor supplement to a roach army will destroy both VR and DT/archon, so the answer to this problem is a mothership, and of course, carriers + air ups/shield ups. I believe DT/Air (yes, I want to be just like Bisu in BW) is strong for about 4 minutes, in fact with cannons it's untouchable, but Zerg can answer soon after when either hydra numbers are up or infestor numbers + energy is up. The VRs still hold their own, and a fast mothership definitely helps, but the problem comes with the lack of range that my units have. Yes, I have built a dark shrine so I do have fast access to high templar, but since I went stargate HT will thin my air numbers, and they are in themselves a high investment, and not a good answer to the base Zerg unit, the roach. All of these units, therefore, are at the mercy of hydra range or fungal range.
This is then the carriers role here: High range, high hitpoint unit that can hold it's own when supported by the main force. Fungals are less effective, and hydras can't range the carrier. The carrier can outrange neural and can easily strike (without pathing difficulties, similar to colossus) any infestor that manages to get a high-value neural parasite (mothership, stray carrier, archon). It can also handle hydra quite well given upgrades are continued for air and shields. Good micro can eliminate hydra numbers that, without the carrier support, would have completely rendered VRs useless, and having the hydras shoot interceptors from time to time instead of my ground units is a bonus as well; it's damage mitigation. The carrier saves other units as well in this fight; once units that can handle air are gone, the rest of the Zerg force has to leave too, else the trade will become extremely lopsided and Protoss air will just push into enemy base. If the mship is still alive, lookout Zerg; you are being put on notice with a fleet in their base AND recall. If that happens, the old tagline will ring true: "the roaches will check in, but they won't check out."
The carrier in this scenario comes out in time as well. It comes right when that Zerg support unit comes into its own and Zerg is ready to tackle the DT/VR composition. The best thing about the carrier in this case is that it isn't exactly a hard counter either. It's a strong counter, but you don't feel abusive using it and the ensuing confrontation still comes down to micro on both sides, caster/DPS/Overseer vs cloaker(Mship)/DPS/high range. And why not get air earlier? Zerg ultimately wants broodlord infestor, and Protoss needs air to beat it reliably; why not get the jump on Zerg while being able to handle vast amounts of roaches?
Caution: I am a NA Masters player but am inconsistent. Therefore if watching the replays try to pay attention more on the idea behind what's going on over something like a non-critical supply block; I'm working on getting better! 
Disclaimer: This is only for FFEs in response to fast 3rd from Zerg. If that doesn't happen I play robo build.
Also, as I am a fan of the carrier and the Tempest seems like a dumbed down version of the BW carrier, I encourage everyone else so inclined to start their own carrier blog with replays! Why not, right?
-->Daybreak, my forward pylon gets destroyed and my zeals are wiped out, so 3rd is taken and 2 defensive DTs are warped in. Stargate follows as I go on to win a major engagement against Roach/Infestor:
http://drop.sc/226707
-->Daybreak, NO CARRIERS HERE... I snipe his 3rd with DT after my zeals are wiped out (hate donations), and take 3rd while he takes his 4th and retakes 3rd. Careless with DT, I go colossus and robo and trade poorly a couple of times, and transition to VRs to counter BLs is too late as I go on to lose against BL/Infestor:
http://drop.sc/226268
Imagine if I had gone stargate how different it would have been. Even a player at my level would have done well, instead I hit a wall of broodlings and my army was rendered ineffective.
<Reserved>Last edit: 2012-07-24 03:59:19
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| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 01:46. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # | |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| ZeromuS Canada. July 24 2012 02:26. Posts 8291 | Profile Blog # |
We've been seeing carrier transitions against infest or brood more and more lately. I hope this continues to be explored
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| | uOttawa SC2 Club/CSL Team join@uostarcraft.com | Will we see a hatchery this game? - Tasteless (Game 2 Naniwa vs. Leenock MLG winter Arena) |
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| Frostfire United States. July 24 2012 03:41. Posts 405 | Profile Blog # |
If the zerg goes for Nueral fast, doesnt this just destroy your plan?
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| | "In solitude, we are least alone" |
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| ReketSomething United States. July 24 2012 03:48. Posts 4012 | Profile Blog # |
Nope, carriers outrange neural!
And also, this is obviously map dependent but its definitely viable! |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 03:48. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 03:41 Frostfire wrote:
If the zerg goes for Nueral fast, doesnt this just destroy your plan?
I've never seen it but I think the answer is no... If they are going for fast neural, they can't handle the 6 or so VRs I've already got; they've basically got to choose to cast one or the other: neural 1 or 2 VRs and be targetted by the rest, or fungal the VRs (the better option). Fungal will win against Protoss air if I never go carriers, so there's no reason really to rush to neural since I don't have colossus and I've only shown VRs. The threat from infestors is through fungal growth and a few infested marines that supplement the roach/ling army. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 03:53. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 03:48 ReketSomething wrote:
Nope, carriers outrange neural!
And also, this is obviously map dependent but its definitely viable!
Yes, smaller and "chokey" maps like Shak is good for traditional Colossus based armies but I think for bigger maps air is's a better option than colossus. What Blizzard will find out (hopefully) is that on maps like Condemned (which is super hard for traditional PvZ cause colossus so slow and Zerg can easily take their third) Protoss air force is the way to go because:
1) Easy 3rd for Protoss provides the income
2) Mothership improves fleet durability, makes return trips instant, and is way strong for base defense naturally, being able to pull out of position units back into position.
3) Damage can be done without a full commit. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Roe Canada. July 24 2012 07:12. Posts 5141 | Profile Blog # |
| I still don't see why DB doesn't just increase the range on carriers, you would have the same result as a tempest while keeping carrier fans happy. |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 07:35. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 07:12 Roe wrote:
I still don't see why DB doesn't just increase the range on carriers, you would have the same result as a tempest while keeping carrier fans happy.
I postulated that because
a) the tempest is unoriginal because it is basically a dumbed down version of the bw carrier, and
b) the other unit we saw for Protoss was the replicant that just copies other existing units, and
c) the other races are getting new units
that DB HAS to replace the carrier instead of fix it because the dev team is out of ideas but still feel that they owe Protoss players new units just like the other two races. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Sated England. July 24 2012 08:49. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
I personally like to go for Carrier/Void Ray/Mothership vs. Mech players if I can win an engagement one-sidedly enough that I think I have time to produce them. In this game, not only do I manage to win the engagements quite easily (Mech really isn't that great against Chargelot/Archon/Templar), I manage to do terrible, terrible damage with Storm drops... so I go for Carriers. It kinda helps that my opponent is only in Platinum league...
http://drop.sc/226825
Mech isn't that popular, but I used to have a lot of games that looked somewhat like this (minus the Storm drops, that's new). Mech just doesn't seem to have an answer to Carriers if the Terran player doesn't scout that they're coming... and even if they do, switching into enough Starports to make some sort of Viking/Raven/Battlecrusier army just isn't going to happen fast enough to stop your air army crushing them. Thors just don't cut it... even when you stack your air units like a dork (I am so bad).Last edit: 2012-07-24 08:50:13 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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| tehemperorer United States. July 24 2012 09:08. Posts 2180 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 08:49 Sated wrote:I personally like to go for Carrier/Void Ray/Mothership vs. Mech players if I can win an engagement one-sidedly enough that I think I have time to produce them. In this game, not only do I manage to win the engagements quite easily (Mech really isn't that great against Chargelot/Archon/Templar), I manage to do terrible, terrible damage with Storm drops... so I go for Carriers. It kinda helps that my opponent is only in Platinum league... http://drop.sc/226825Mech isn't that popular, but I used to have a lot of games that looked somewhat like this (minus the Storm drops, that's new). Mech just doesn't seem to have an answer to Carriers if the Terran player doesn't scout that they're coming... and even if they do, switching into enough Starports to make some sort of Viking/Raven/Battlecrusier army just isn't going to happen fast enough to stop your air army crushing them. Thors just don't cut it... even when you stack your air units like a dork (I am so bad).
Yeah man you on the airtoss thread? I think there's definite legit stuff going on regardless of league, and yeah since mech requires Terran to have a lot of bases carriers and storm is basically the only reliable answer to it in my opinion, cause you need templar to deal with either mass viking or mass thor anyway. |
| | Knowing is half the battle... the other half is lasers. |
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| Sated England. July 24 2012 09:53. Posts 3427 | Profile Blog # |
On July 24 2012 09:08 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +On July 24 2012 08:49 Sated wrote:I personally like to go for Carrier/Void Ray/Mothership vs. Mech players if I can win an engagement one-sidedly enough that I think I have time to produce them. In this game, not only do I manage to win the engagements quite easily (Mech really isn't that great against Chargelot/Archon/Templar), I manage to do terrible, terrible damage with Storm drops... so I go for Carriers. It kinda helps that my opponent is only in Platinum league... http://drop.sc/226825Mech isn't that popular, but I used to have a lot of games that looked somewhat like this (minus the Storm drops, that's new). Mech just doesn't seem to have an answer to Carriers if the Terran player doesn't scout that they're coming... and even if they do, switching into enough Starports to make some sort of Viking/Raven/Battlecrusier army just isn't going to happen fast enough to stop your air army crushing them. Thors just don't cut it... even when you stack your air units like a dork (I am so bad).
Yeah man you on the airtoss thread? I think there's definite legit stuff going on regardless of league, and yeah since mech requires Terran to have a lot of bases carriers and storm is basically the only reliable answer to it in my opinion, cause you need templar to deal with either mass viking or mass thor anyway.
The PvZ Skytoss thread? Yeah, I use that style on Ohana and Cloud Kingdom sometimes, but I think it's only strong on maps were you can abuse the hell out of Cannons. Ohana is definitely the best since you can wall the top of your natural ramp, take down the rocks, and then build a boatload of Cannons are the third... such a good build on that map.
EDIT:
Skytoss PvZ - So strong if they give you enough time to set up enough Cannons! I didn't even think that this would be a good map for it, but I didn't know what to do on Shakuras aside from 2 Base all-in... and I had already done that twice in three games against this guy!
http://drop.sc/227238Last edit: 2012-07-25 07:24:35 |
| | EU Masters Protoss Playing For Team SC2Improve ~ www.sc2improve.org ~ "I'd rather play a strategy that is worse but that I feel confident in than play the better strategy not really feeling it and not being 100% behind it" - Grubby | |
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