Thoughts of WC3

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On September 24 2012 20:58 Manit0u wrote:
It's very hard to kill someone outright in WC3. Usually people _try_ to accomplish this with human or orc tower rush, night elf AoW + archer rush -> contain with protectors and catas. Most of the time you'll just end with contain instead of a kill and will have to transition into mid-late game anyway.

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On September 24 2012 21:20 Manit0u wrote:
If you get rushed like that, just be patient. Put up some defensive structures yourself, build some catas and try to hold, preferably killing enemy workers as they attempt to plant new towers closer to your main.

To beat this, you can either get a hidden expansion (pretty easy with night elf) or sneak out with your hero and a couple of units to rape enemy workers at home (as all of their economy is being put into the contain and he will have 0 defense at home). If he TP's back to defend his base, you simply TP back to yours and break the containment as his army won't be there.

Edit: If you see him towering up outside of your base and your army is out, don't rush to defend, go for his main instead. It'll be some time before his towers will be up and running and even more time before they can do any significant damage. Use this time to rape his econmy/force a TP. This will make your life easier and possibly end the tower rush right there and then.

WC3 mind tricks

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On September 24 2012 20:35 Mr.Bimbles wrote:
Also every race has a building units mechanism like terran but you make units even slower (way the hell slower) so you can't instantly make a shitton of units and that leads to you must almost never be focusing on economy you must be just massing units constantly because the other guy might just kill you at any moment and (no larvea or warp-in for you)

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On September 24 2012 23:00 Dyme wrote:

The reason for not focussing on macro as much is probably mainly the tax you have to pay for having units, the whole hero-experience mechanic, and not the speed at which you build stuff. If it was just the unit production speed limiting your macro, you could just build more production facilities.

If Rax in SC2 produced half as quickly, you would just get twice as many Rax, and not focus less on economy or something.

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But here is one thing I noticed, maps are so wide and open that its a really good place to just launch an early game attack.
(no ramp on main base and so on and so forth)

And there are so few like really effective defensive units like sentries and stationary structures aren't really that good because the map is so open wide so that if you want to cover the entrance to your base you have to make like 50 turrets.

So the only way to defend is to make aggressive units and then why not just push out if you are going to be massing those up.

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Also every race has a building units mechanism like terran but you make units even slower (way the hell slower) so you can't instantly make a shitton of units and that leads to you must almost never be focusing on economy you must be just massing units constantly because the other guy might just kill you at any moment and (no larvea or warp-in for you)

So it leads to some very interesting micro and one basy all-in'ish play

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On September 25 2012 04:00 babylon wrote:
Well, lol, yes, what you said is bs, but good on you realizing that.


You can defend pretty much everything early-game with good enough micro even with just a single hero and 3-4 units. (Sometimes even just one unit, sometimes just a hero. Hell, some people tech straight to T2 before building a rax.) Early-game def. is so strong if you sim-city correctly. Orcs have burrows, NE has wells + attacking trees, HU has militia (which together with a proper base-block and one tower makes early-game rushes against HU impossible), while UD is nigh-on uncrackable (as in, getting to the point where you can take out very important structures) until late-game. Just get used to using the built-in race defense and get used to pulling workers to mass-repair.

The only halfway-viable early-game rush is the T1 HU TR on maps like EI or close-positions TR, and even then, it's a gamble for the HU player, and it's something you only do if you're super-confident in your micro or super-confident in your opponent's suckiness~


Idk what race you play, but the only race that is mostly forced to one-base it until late-game T3 is UD. HU and NE have the most expansion options (can do so at all tiers), while Orc is pretty much restricted to T2 & T3 expansions.

Now, if you've said that War3 is so timing-based, then yeah, you'd have a point. I think Grubby said it best when he stated that War3 is basically a game of very, very thin-sliced timings. Not just on the micro level (pulling units back when they're about to die, throwing out spells/abilities when they're about to die, TPing when you need to but not before you've dealt as much damage as you can, etc.) but also on the grander scale due to the War3 style of macro, which is super-different compared to BW/SC2 macro. It's not "build workers, build units," and you shouldn't think about it like that. War3 has more types of resources than BW/SC2, which actually makes it complicated as hell. Not only do you have gold/wood management (with the added wrench of "upkeep" thrown in, so you need to know when you can bank, when you can break upkeep, etc. + a subfield of "item management," which is what you should buy and when), you also have experience management (which includes things like efficient creep routes, knowing your opponent's creep routes, knowing where they've been based on what items they have, etc.). And this is all just the fundamental basics you need to know. It makes the game super-convoluted, but also prone to "come-backs" since there are so many ways you can try to grab an advantage (economy, tech, exp., items, etc.).

Anyways, if you want to see what the power of properly controlled macro can do in War3, take a look at these replays: TH000 vs. Lyn, TH000 vs. Lucifer, and this 2v2 with TH000+Yumiko. (If you're wondering why TH000 makes so many appearances, it's because he's a magician. And HU. Also because he's probably the best war-of-attrition style player atm; the other two who're also good at this style are Infi and Moon imo, but obviously Moon no longer plays and Infi's fallen off since trying to do his little hybrid gig. Lucifer and Yumiko are probably the next best late-game players these days.)

EDIT: Overall, I think the one thing every new person starting War3 should know ... play like a patient mofo. Seriously, tower rushes can last like 10 minutes, you just need to drag it out until you get your tech out and they lose a little too much or move their hero to the wrong spot ... Lose your whole main? No problemo. Play smart until they break bank. Don't panic, and don't get discouraged. Grubby said one of the most important things he learned from War3 is that the game's never over it's over. Here is another replay of 1-base UD beating 3/4-base HU btw: Lucifer vs. TH000.

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