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On September 10 2010 09:09 domovoi wrote: I'm surprised so many people are willing to side with a government-backed cartel (KeSPA) who treats its employees like dirt, as Progamers essentially have no negotiation leverage when all the teams are colluding with government approval.
Woah! Hold on! So you're KeSPA treats their employees like dirt. I'm assuming you mean players. Well, you see, KeSPA is the reason why non-top5 progamers do not live a miserable life like they used to several years ago.
How is Blizzard/Gretech treating thep players then? KeSPA corporations fork millions of dollars to provide housing and food for all their progamers (afaik some practice partners too). If that's treating people like dirt, then what are you going to call Blizzard's attitude, which is basically "for all we care you may as well starve for the next month if you don't win anything"...
I may not agree with how KeSPA handles the whole FA thing, but they're by far the lesser evil.
Between BW and SC2, whichever game "survives" should be determined by whichever game attracts the most talent and the most viewers without any monopolistic coercion involved. In terms of which party is impeding this process the most, it clearly must be KeSPA and its iron-grip over progamers and a large portion of broadcast rights. That Blizzard is threatening to kill BW through its IP rights is despicable as well, but that won't happen until there's a court order. In the meantime, KeSPA continues to wield its artificial cartel powers to handicap any attempt for SC2 to gain ground in South Korea. You people are giving them too much leeway for establishing the esports scene; KeSPA should certainly be commended for that, but it is not necessary for the survival of Proleague for KeSPA to wield monopoly power over professional gamers and broadcast rights, assuming Proleague can stand on its own.
Hah, monopolictic coercion? That is exactly what Gretech is doing. They're trying to bully OGN/MBC into broadcasting GSL on their channels and during primetime at that (maybe even getting rid of PL altogether...).
How is KeSPA impeding anything? As regards SC2, they're more or less staying neutral. They're not investing their own resources (money, channels, players) to promote SC2 (because of how Blizzard treated them), that's all. It's Gretech's job to attract the players/sponsors/channels... On the other hand, Gretech/Blizzard want to destroy the BW scene.
It costs millions of dollars a year to sustain a progaming team. KeSPA corporations have every right to tell their players not to compete in any SC2 events considering KeSPA and Blizzard are at odds. Progamers are not slaves - they can leave the team if they want to, you know?
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This discussion is going no where it's either people going to hop on to their respective believes which is Pro Blizzard/ Gretech or Kespa . Lets look at things objectively as a fan of bw since the day i pop in the cd into my comp I am definitely on Kespa side as the game I love and had fun throughout my whole life is going to get destroyed because of greedy Gretech with their intrusive maneuver in getting our established Pro league into shambles . All gretech got to do is forgot KOREA and do their bloody business in America as what they are doing is definitely is not profitable why destroy your source of income ? Kespa has been paying loyalty to Blizzard through using their game for years now that's clearly not logical . In my opinion blizzard should just create another league of their own (GSL) which they did and leave our BW alone .Sc2 maybe Frankenstein creation made out by blizzard and now its trying to forcefully feed us into our mouth .
Regards angry bw supporter
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On September 10 2010 13:53 xBillehx wrote: It really pains me how some people jump straight to Gretech wanting to kill off BW. You're all completely avoiding what you don't want to hear, and that's that Gretech offered to have both leagues run side by side with KeSPA keeping the Proleague and Gretech doing the GSL. KeSPA said no.
No, it was KeSPA that wanted the leagues to run side by side. Gretech wanted to bully KeSPA into moving ProLeague to a worse timeslot.
How about Gretech takes care of broadcasting GSL themselves instead of trying to force OGN and MBC to broadcast it on their channels, using their resources, while moving their league to a worse timeslot?
Plain and simple, just like they said no when Blizzard spent three long years trying to negotiate with them. (And dont give me this BS about unreasonable "demands" because all those "demands" were released by KeSPA representatives, not a neutral party.)
Blizzard made an official response as regards the NDA breach. They've never denied ANY of the claims by KeSPA. They just said they're upset that KeSPA broke the NDA. They had the opportunity. It proves that KeSPA representatives were telling the truth.
Not to mention Blizzard kept quiet regarding the accusations of Blizzard breaking off the negotiations whenever SC2 got delayed. They never had the intention to come to any sort of agreement. They simply wanted the negotiations breakdown to coincide with the release of SC2...
KeSPA had the option to submit to the current owners of the rights and give up just two days' timeslots so both leagues can run side by side without competing with each other. The truth of it is, since Gretech has the rights, KeSPA really has no say in the stipulations. They had a chance to continue running their league in cooperation, but they said no.
They don't have the right until the court says so.
And, no, moving ProLeague to a worse timeslot, while GSL gets to be broadcasted on OGN and/or MBC is not co-operation. It's extortion.
They had a chance to buy the rights themselves before all of this went to hell, but they said no.
No, they did not.
The terms Blizzard gave to KeSPA were specifically designed so that KeSPA will never accept them:
1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA
6. Additional contracts of the progamers with Blizzard that override the contracts between the progamers and their teams.
How many of them apply to Gretech? Practically none.
1. Gretech got a 3 year contract easily, while Blizzard demanded KeSPA to accept a 1-year contract (which is ridiculous; KeSPA was supposed to invest into SC2 just so that Activision-Blizzard could raise the fees tenfold for the next year?).
2. Gretech had some leagues that wouldn't be even possible without Blizzard's support. Their sponsors were crappy compared to those attracted by KeSPA, and unlike KeSPA, they did not enjoy complete freedom for the last several years. Not to mention Gretech is some small company compared to OGN/MBC?other KeSPA corporations, and it does not have the government's approval to be THE governing body for eSports in Korea.
3. Gretech did not disclose how that part of the contract work in their case. I'm assuming the fees are smaller simply because PL/MSL/OSL are MUCH bigger/more popular events.
4. Gretechs owns just couple crappy shows nobody even watches, they're not a TV station. On the other hand, OGN/MBC have produced dozens of quality shows they invested tons of money into. Blizzard wanted the ownership of pretty much all the content produced by OGN/MBC. Gretech had hardly anything to lose here, they produce barely any content to start with.
5. KeSPA consists of some of the biggest corporations in Korea and has tied with the government. MBC/OGN produce not only BW content but also for many other games. To demand the right to audit KeSPA is ridiculous of Blizzard. On the other hand, Gretech is just a small company.
6. Again, Gretech had nothing to lose here. They do not own any proteams. KeSPA, on the other hand, forks probably hundreds of millions of dollars a year (total) to sustain its teams.
I respect KeSPA for flourishing the eSports scene in Korea, and I love watching BW. The fact is that all could have continued if KeSPA just gave in a little bit to the rightful owners of something they chose not to capitalize on themselves. I hate that they didn't. I hate that they stayed stubborn and refused to compromise with anyone, and now it's their own fault that it got this far. Yet everyone whos "anti-Blizzard/Gretech" chooses to skip over and ignore this fact, thinking it's entirely the fault of Gretech/Blizzard who want to simply kill BW without trying to cooperate. If you're going to support one side, at least do so acknowledging all the facts, not just ones that benefit your side.
Blizzard not only wants to kill BW, but also does nothing to help esports flourish. Gretech's GSL and money distribution model, as well as stating that they don't want a teamleague is a MASSIVE step backwards.
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"The system works, but it is exploitive, unethical, and run by incompetent, blundering dunderheads."
Then what are you going to call the system Blizzard/Gretech are setting up, which basically turns progaming into treasure hunting it used to be nearly a decade ago? ;/
KeSPA might do many things better, but Blizzard/Gretech do them much worse. KeSPA invests tons of money so that progamers may have a steady pay and quite good living conditions. They know what they're getting into when they sign up for a team.
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On September 10 2010 16:56 SaturnAttack wrote: I remember the day SF3 came out on the scene, how exciting it was, and how the tourney scene wasn't gripped with a political battle threatening the health of both. Hell even till this day, a 13 year old game and a 2 year old game is played side by side. SF4 didn't tear the scene apart, it just added to it. I see that and look upon it with envy. Money and greed hasn't ruined that one yet. Maybe there's no way SC2 will ever coexist with BW. I hope they do, for everyone's sake.
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
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On September 10 2010 20:58 petelectro wrote:
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them?
You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
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On September 10 2010 22:16 hydraden wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 20:58 petelectro wrote:
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could. Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them? You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene.
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans. They owned the market for that long that they developed this arrogant posture thinking they deserve to do whatever they want. Did they really think Blizzard would just sit and wait for SC2 to take off as an e-sport in korea by itself? Blizzard isn't the small developer it was back in 1998 and it sure as hell isn't giving up the money that their games are producing beyond the actual sales.
If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
This whole debate reminds me a lot of magic the gathering after the first major rules change and then again after the new card design was revealed. All the people saying that the game will drop in sales and lose all it's players were wrong because they were just blindly holding on to the past even if it was completely irrational.
(sorry for the spelling/english, I'm a bit rusty)
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On September 10 2010 23:00 petelectro wrote:
I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans.
KeSPA is not a company.
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It's not all about money, for the pro teams sure, but KeSPA is a non-profit organization. KeSPA isn't making money, the pro teams are. Is it about money? Yes, but it just so happens that the KeSPA side is benefiting the fans of Brood War, while the Blizz/Gretech side is benefiting potential fans.
Can Brood War compete with StarCraft II? Yes, very easily. Most professional Counter Strike players are playing 1.6 and not Counter-Strike Source. As of right now the best RTS players in South Korea are playing Brood War, not StarCraft II. And guess what, if KeSPA wins this court case and ProLeague for Brood War is allowed to continue then Brood War will continue to dominant SC2 in terms of viewers and money. Blizz/Gretech know this and that's why they're trying to murder ProLeague and professional Brood War, that's why Blizzard never really wanted to sell KeSPA broadcasting rights.
If a ProLeague for StarCraft II develops and if after HotS and the Protoss expansion the game drastically changes to become much more APM centric to a point where the skill levels are as drastically different as Brood War and to a point where the game is as interesting to watch as Brood War then yes, then and only then will SC2 reach a larger fan base in South Korea (which is all that really matters). Or if Blizz/Gretech succeed in destroying Brood War as we know it.
Now, as for the rest of the world, I don't see it happening. Professional gaming just isn't that popular outside of South Korea, not even among gamers. In my gaming community that I belong to I am the only person who cares about pro Brood War or SC2. There are a handful of people interested in invite level TF2 however none of them really keep up with it or care that much about it. SC2 isn't going to develop in other countries the way Brood War did in South Korea, it sucks and I really wish it was different but I honestly can't see it happening. Now, would it be awesome if it did and we had ProLeague and StarLeagues in America being broadcast on ESPN or other game broadcasters? Hell yes. But I don't foresee that happening for any video game in the next decade or so.
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On September 10 2010 23:00 petelectro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 22:16 hydraden wrote:On September 10 2010 20:58 petelectro wrote:
That's it and everyone who's trying to defend kespa OR gom/gretech/blizzard in this, should always remember that it is just about money. Kespa showed us more than once that they care about money and their monopol more than about anything else (and yeah I know that they did a lot for the players but we can't demand gom/blizzard to do the same thing from scratch) and I just don't see how people are defending them just because they stand behind BW and don't want the game to vanish (which won't happen anyway, even without kespa, the community wouldn't die and there will be some other organisation to pick it up).
Sure you can argue that blizzard is greedy as well but hell, they made the damn game and I can see that now that SC2 is out they want they're new game to take the place of BW. Why wouldn't they?
I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could. Sure, it is about money, everybody knows this. Every professional team is about money. Players from Yankees and Red Sox are all for money. Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal are playing for the money. So you do not cheer for any of them? You have to choose side as a fan, if you try to be neutral, then you are not a fan. In this case, you obviously chose Blizzard/Gretech side because you have very little emotional attachment to BW proscene. I have very little emotional attachment to companies that make stupid (yeah, that's the word) decisions because they are not capable of thinking ahead and thus screw over their costumers and fans. They owned the market for that long that they developed this arrogant posture thinking they deserve to do whatever they want. Did they really think Blizzard would just sit and wait for SC2 to take off as an e-sport in korea by itself? Blizzard isn't the small developer it was back in 1998 and it sure as hell isn't giving up the money that their games are producing beyond the actual sales. If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant. This whole debate reminds me a lot of magic the gathering after the first major rules change and then again after the new card design was revealed. All the people saying that the game will drop in sales and lose all it's players were wrong because they were just blindly holding on to the past even if it was completely irrational. (sorry for the spelling/english, I'm a bit rusty)
I dont know how Kespa screw over their customers and fans, right now as a fan I can watch and enjoy pro gaming for free in an stable enviroment, maybe you are talking about Blizzard which has made nothing for BW in several years?. The most funny thing about your statement is your claim "If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded ", lol, not even Blizzard and Gretech are sure about SC2 being an e-sport, if they would, they just could grow SC2 in Korea in a fast way without touching BW, so if BW cant compete against SC2 why is the fear expressed by some demands to Kespa?, let me know please. Blizzard can make whatever they want with SC2 and, we, BW fans dont care, in fact they are doing that, asocciating with a small company (Gretech) and impossing a tournament format where they have total control. The fate of SC2 is not marked for BW but for itself, dont forget that if SC2 continues to be the boring game to watch that it is now, it wont suceed even if it is the only pc game in the planet.
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if you want * pro gaming clans / teams * payment on regular basis * payment for b-teamers * but only huge tournaments -> then youre with kespa
if you want * no pro gamer salary * money based on tournament prizes * no teamleagues -> then youre with blizz
this is how i see it. the only problem i see with this is: how could top pro gamers like flash or jaedong exist in a world like the one blizzard wants? this is not like poker, where you dont have to train. this is not like golf or boxing, where you can train alone. you need those practice partners which are not your opponents...
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Mhm, as I've said before in this thread, without KeSPA and the ProLeague system most of the pro BW players we have today wouldn't be there. So I'd add to that list that if you like the idea of a handful of people being the best SC2 players for the next decade that you'll side with Blizz/Gretech.
Really, without the pro teams system of KeSPA once a few players get established and are the dominant ones winning the GSL and such they'll be the only top players for the entirety of SC2's lifetime just like every video game besides Brood War.
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On September 10 2010 23:33 overt wrote: [...] Yes, but it just so happens that the KeSPA side is benefiting the fans of Brood War, while the Blizz/Gretech side is benefiting potential fans.[...]
TO be honest i cant even see how Blizz's trying to benefit its potential fans. Charging for VoDs n streams will only deter fans away, if anything.. The only one that seem to get benefitted seems like Blizz's picket..
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It seems with the current responses, to me that neither side is very willing to "bend" from their current stance....
For either side to really benefit from the current situation, both sides need to be willing to come to a compromise... meaning if they both make a small sacrifice, they could both profit off of a deal.
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On September 07 2010 13:49 Murderotica wrote: Fuck yes. Fuck SC2 and fuck Gretech. Dirty greedy bastards with no respect, just dollar signs imprinted on their eyes. If progame teams boycott SC2 leagues then BW might just live on. Please God, swift justice!
Fuck yes. Fuck BW and fuck KespA. Greedy, butthurt corporation afraid to lose power. If enough people get into sc2, and gretech throws enough money at it, then BW might finally die, please God, let it die!
doesnt sound so good turned the other way, does it? its too bad most of the rest of the world feels this way, cause like bw or not, kespa had a choke hold on it and starved everyone but koreans out of it.
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Some people have mentioned that KeSPA isn't in it for the money because they are a non-profit organization. That's like saying RIAA isn't being a dick about copyright for the money because they too are a non-profit org. The fact is, both are trade associations that represent the interests of for-profit entities. But, anyway, the argument that they're doing it for the money is a stupid argument. It's actually good everyone is doing it for the money, it makes shaping their incentives to benefit eSports as a whole much easier.
Woah! Hold on! So you're KeSPA treats their employees like dirt. I'm assuming you mean players. Well, you see, KeSPA is the reason why non-top5 progamers do not live a miserable life like they used to several years ago. Personally, I think they do live a miserable life relative to the pittance they take in salary, but that's neither here nor there. KeSPA is most assuredly not the reason why there is money in the eSports industry. Yes, they deserve credit for marketing the game. But the viewers are the reason why the industry has money, and viewers aren't watching these matches out of some love for KeSPA. They're watching them because of the players.
How is Blizzard/Gretech treating thep players then? KeSPA corporations fork millions of dollars to provide housing and food for all their progamers (afaik some practice partners too). If that's treating people like dirt, then what are you going to call Blizzard's attitude, which is basically "for all we care you may as well starve for the next month if you don't win anything"...
I may not agree with how KeSPA handles the whole FA thing, but they're by far the lesser evil. This isn't about who's more evil, and you guys are naive to frame it in such terms. This is about who is impeding the natural equilibrium of the market (whether it favors BW or SC2). The point about KeSPA is that right now, they hold monosopnistic power over the progamer labor market, because they are a government-approved cartel. It frankly shocks me that an industry with so many viewers and so much revenue pays its best players so little that they're willing to throw games for a mere $20,000. The only reason why this is is because the players have very little leverage when negotiating their contracts. It's either take KeSPA's pathetic wages and living conditions, or throw away everything you've worked for and do something else.
Because Gretech doesn't hold market power, whatever their payment scheme is will be handled by the market. If players prefer to live by tournament winnings, then so be it. If they prefer the team structure, then an organization will provide it, absent any monopolistic coercion. This is basic antitrust and labor economics.
Hah, monopolictic coercion? That is exactly what Gretech is doing. They're trying to bully OGN/MBC into broadcasting GSL on their channels and during primetime at that (maybe even getting rid of PL altogether...). You'll have to explain. In what fashion is Gretech bullying others into broadcasting GSL? Do you mean because Gretech has exclusive SC2 broadcast rights? SC2 is playing second-fiddle (or perhaps even third-fiddle) to the market leader BW. There is no monopolistic coercion there, as BW and SC2 compete for the same labor inputs and viewers. The market power is held by KeSPA.
It's like saying MLB bullies Fox/ESPN/TBS into broadcasting baseball games. Fox/ESPN/TBS can just tell MLB to f*ck off if their demands become unreasonable, because they can always go broadcast football games instead.
How is KeSPA impeding anything? As regards SC2, they're more or less staying neutral. They're not investing their own resources (money, channels, players) to promote SC2 (because of how Blizzard treated them), that's all. It's Gretech's job to attract the players/sponsors/channels... On the other hand, Gretech/Blizzard want to destroy the BW scene. That's hilarious. Gretech hasn't done anything to destroy BW, except make threats about broadcast rights (and who knows if such rights are enforceable, I don't even think it's clear under American Copyright law). On the other hand, the very fact that KeSPA controls the actions and broadcasts of the all-important labor input, i.e. the progamers, means that it is the party impeding the most. And the only reason why they can control their progamers so tightly is because they are a cartel and the progamers are unable to negotiate to allow them to play SC2 without sacrificing their livelihood.
It costs millions of dollars a year to sustain a progaming team. KeSPA corporations have every right to tell their players not to compete in any SC2 events considering KeSPA and Blizzard are at odds. Progamers are not slaves - they can leave the team if they want to, you know? Again, the only reason why KeSPA can make such ridiculous demands of their players is because they have a cartel. SC2 is in its infancy and too much of a risk for a professional to completely cut off their source of sustainability. I frankly don't care who's at odds with whom. I only care that the market be allowed to proceed freely, and that requires players to play the games they want to. As consumers, this is the thing we should care about, not about what share of the surplus KeSPA, Blizzard and Gretech get from esports.
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United States335 Posts
On September 11 2010 02:35 danson wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 13:49 Murderotica wrote: Fuck yes. Fuck SC2 and fuck Gretech. Dirty greedy bastards with no respect, just dollar signs imprinted on their eyes. If progame teams boycott SC2 leagues then BW might just live on. Please God, swift justice! Fuck yes. Fuck BW and fuck KespA. Greedy, butthurt corporation afraid to lose power. If enough people get into sc2, and gretech throws enough money at it, then BW might finally die, please God, let it die! doesnt sound so good turned the other way, does it? its too bad most of the rest of the world feels this way, cause like bw or not, kespa had a choke hold on it and starved everyone but koreans out of it. Yeah that would explain why KeSPA is trying so hard to kill GSL. The fact that KeSPA is so actively seeking to destroy competitive SC2 just shows how little faith they have in BW's continued success as an eSport.
Hmm, I guess that doesn't make any sense turned the other way either.
KeSPA choked everyone but the Koreans out of BW? Lolwut? Somehow I don't remember listing their efforts to kill BW outside of Korea among their complaints about KeSPA (and don't try to say KeSPA did this by killing GOM, GOM failed because it sucked even if TL liked having the English commentary, certainly not because KeSPA was afraid of BW in other countries). KeSPA's purpose as an organization is to regulate eSports in Korea; spreading eSports outside of the country is not their responsibility. And yet they (or at least they aren't preventing OGN) are reaching out to Chinese fans and eSports in a very powerful way by having the OSL Finals in Shanghai.
On September 10 2010 20:58 petelectro wrote: I don't think that the BW community will grow any larger from this point out (just be realistic, seriously) but the SC2 community will for sure plus it will spread a lot more in western countries than BW ever could.
On September 10 2010 23:00 petelectro wrote: If you seriously think that BW can compete with SC2 forever than you´re just being blinded by your memories and feelings for BW with its decade of awesomeness and I fully understand that BUT saying SC2 has no chance to be as huge as BW or even bigger is just plain arrogant.
Repeating ad nauseum that BW is moribund in Korea and had no chance of growth at all isn't going to magically make it true. BW is doing fine like it or not, and even BW outside of Korea was doing fine until SC2 came out (no hard feelings on that count though). The reason BW is so good, even necessary, for eSports is because it has transcended the trend for competitive games to only last until the next big title. It surprises me when SC2 fans say they wouldn't mind BW dying so that it doesn't continue to detract from SC2. There is room for both; SC2 will succeed or fail on its own merits. BW dying, however, would be a very bad sign for SC2, a game not yet as developed or interesting to watch and a game which no one can say with any degree of certainty will ever get to that point. And considering how much SC2 owes BW, BW dying might even prevent SC2 from having the chance.
If BW were on the way out this thread probably wouldn't exist. The fact is that Gretech/Blizzard are trying to kill a mature and healthy BW scene in Korea.
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There was a lot in your post that I wanted to address but I'm really just going to focus on this one snippet:
On September 11 2010 03:00 domovoi wrote: This isn't about who's more evil, and you guys are naive to frame it in such terms. This is about who is impeding the natural equilibrium of the market (whether it favors BW or SC2). The point about KeSPA is that right now, they hold monosopnistic power over the progamer labor market, because they are a government-approved cartel. It frankly shocks me that an industry with so many viewers and so much revenue pays its best players so little that they're willing to throw games for a mere $20,000. The only reason why this is is because the players have very little leverage when negotiating their contracts. It's either take KeSPA's pathetic wages and living conditions, or throw away everything you've worked for and do something else.
"Government-approved cartel" is rhetoric and it's just as bad as picking one side because it's the lesser of two evils. The best Pro Brood War players are being paid a very good salary, probably better than any salary I'll ever make. The mediocre players can get bad pay too but it's still better than any other professional gamer at that level. A mere $20,000 per game is an absolutely hilarious statement. For all we know the people involved in match fixing threw more than one game, sure most of them say they only threw a single game but these are people who got involved in illegal betting so I don't know how much credence I'd give to what they claim now. $20,000 for throwing a game is a good sum of money and it's likely that at least some of these players threw more than one game.
It's funny that people bring up the "horrible living conditions" from time to time. Most of the players on these teams practice more than what they're required to by the team. So they're already spending more time than they have to in front of a computer and practicing by choice. Their beds look just fine, sure they have roommates but so do all professional athletes (it just so happens that your room is a different hotel each week). And they're fed too, the food is paid for by the team. Sorry but, unless you have documented examples of coaches like beating their players or players having to sleep on concrete in their own feces I can't buy that "pathetic living conditions" bullshit.
Now, you mentioned salaries and I'm glad because I would agree with you. I think it'd be nice if Brood War could have an actual Player's Union of some sort similar to the NFL. With minimum salaries and something that gives players an avenue to actually address concerns. But let's be realistic, eSports is new and Brood War is still the king of it. It's the only system that works and is sustainable in eSports history. It's going to take some time for salaries to be fair for all players and it's going to take some time for players to really be able to speak out on issues that effect them. This isn't necessarily KeSPA's fault either, it's what happens to any new sport. It'll take some time for the players to really have rights like athletes in other sports have but to simply blame KeSPA for a lack of player's rights is not only irresponsible but incredibly unfair.
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"Government-approved cartel" is rhetoric and it's just as bad as picking one side because it's the lesser of two evils. It's not rhetoric. It's simply to illustrate that antitrust laws are unlikely to apply. MLB is a government-approved cartel as well, but at least there's the fairly powerful MLBPA to represent player interests (unfortunately one of the bigger issues is that they don't adequately represent the interests of young/future players, who are paid extremely low wages for the value they provide to the team, but that's a different discussion.)
The best Pro Brood War players are being paid a very good salary, probably better than any salary I'll ever make. The mediocre players can get bad pay too but it's still better than any other professional gamer at that level. A mere $20,000 per game is an absolutely hilarious statement. For all we know the people involved in match fixing threw more than one game, sure most of them say they only threw a single game but these are people who got involved in illegal betting so I don't know how much credence I'd give to what they claim now. $20,000 for throwing a game is a good sum of money and it's likely that at least some of these players threw more than one game. I meant $20,000 in total, not per game. Apparently it was something like $5,000 per game, which, for something illegal and likely to end one's career, is a pittance.
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that...
It's funny that people bring up the "horrible living conditions" from time to time. Most of the players on these teams practice more than what they're required to by the team. So they're already spending more time than they have to in front of a computer and practicing by choice. Their beds look just fine, sure they have roommates but so do all professional athletes (it just so happens that your room is a different hotel each week). And they're fed too, the food is paid for by the team. Sorry but, unless you have documented examples of coaches like beating their players or players having to sleep on concrete in their own feces I can't buy that "pathetic living conditions" bullshit. Being forced to live in what is basically a glorified dormitory is pretty pathetic for the very best players in the world. I mean, I'm just an average guy on the internet and I probably make more than the vast majority of BW progamers, work less hours and own my own place. These people are prodigies at this game, yet they live worse than the average upper-middle class American!
Now, you mentioned salaries and I'm glad because I would agree with you. I think it'd be nice if Brood War could have an actual Player's Union of some sort similar to the NFL. With minimum salaries and something that gives players an avenue to actually address concerns. But let's be realistic, eSports is new and Brood War is still the king of it. It's the only system that works and is sustainable in eSports history. It's going to take some time for salaries to be fair for all players and it's going to take some time for players to really be able to speak out on issues that effect them. This isn't necessarily KeSPA's fault either, it's what happens to any new sport. It'll take some time for the players to really have rights like athletes in other sports have but to simply blame KeSPA for a lack of player's rights is not only irresponsible but incredibly unfair. I don't "fault" KeSPA for doing what's in their economic interests. But I won't root for them over Gretech when Gretech is the only semblance of competition that will give progamers some leverage.
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On September 11 2010 06:58 domovoi wrote: [...]
Anyway the very best players make something like $200,000 per year. This is pretty low for the absolute best players in a very popular sport. I know many normal people who make more than that... [...]
Lol is it just me or you are saying that Brood War is a "very popular sport" now? Is it s'posed to be comparable to popular sports like soccer, basketball, really? Flash made 400k last year, and i would very much like to hear about how its low compared to other eSports.
Hell lets say he made 30k+/month, which other eSport have more than 10 players earning that much a year.. Like it or not, Brood War is far and away the eSport where players' total salaries are the highest, other eSport just cant begin to compare.
If you play DotA (or follow the scene), you ll realise that as the scene struggles to grow, how much of a "model of heaven" Brood War's scene is in comparison.
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