EDITED WITH PGR RESPONSES IN BOLD. Considering PGR and Ruriweb responses, most of these rumors are probably true.
EDIT2: I've added few interesting tweets at the end of this post.
EDIT3: Commentator Um just tweeted that Ongamenet Starleague will start its qualifiers next week or at the latest the week after.
EDIT4: Removed some info to keep the post as objective as possible.
1. Around middle of last month (mid-September), there was a rumor that Gretech was willing to negotiate with a major game broadcasting company (Ongamenet and MBCgame to be precise) if Boxer transitioned to SC2. Now that Boxer has and even qualified for GSL2, there is a serious talk between Gretech and Ongamenet of broadcasting GSL2 via Ongamenet and Ongamenet alone (If you've been following Korean E-Sports scene for very long time, you'd know that Ongamenet basically pushed Boxer to the stardom and tried to maximize that for their benefit. Their change from Ro16 to Ro24 format and golden mouse were all designed with Boxer in mind. Ongamenet knows that Boxer alone will make GSL2 a huge hit and is pushing hard to get the broadcasting right.)
In Progress
2. Ongamenet has received a lot of sponsorship proposals for their Starleague, but they are waiting on the GSL situation and may even stop Starleague completely if they can get the right. (Another rumor is that the next Starleague might occur in conjunction with GSL2 with Gretech/GSL as the sponsor).
Nothing set in stone. Ongamenet might do S league starting with GSL 2011. Active negotiation is in progress
3. Ongamenet is not very confident that they will be broadcasting Proleague. This is reflected in that they slotted their Kartrider league on Tuesdays 6:30PM, which would conflict with Proleague's 5 day schedule.
Ongamenet will still do Proleague, just on weekends.
4. MBCgame appears to be going in the direction of completely shutting down MSL. As most of you know, they forced Bigfile MSL and STX Masters Cup without any negotiation with Gretech. This has caused Gretech to completely ignore MBCgame in any of their negotiations.
MBCgame cannot open an individual league even if it wants to. With them likely to not be a part of Proleague, they are looking to move in another direction. Probably will take at least 6 months. They already have a sponsor for their next Tekken Crash season. If they can't be a part of Proleague, they are looking into giving up MBCgame HERO team.
5. MBCgame's Coach Ha resigned because of players' complaints. Team's front office wanted to bring Coach Ha back because the team faired much better past season, but players didn't want this. MBCgame's coaching team has mostly left the team (Coach Park left years ago to lead SK T1, Coach Lee left the team to found TSL for SC2, and Coach Han, aka Clide, as you know, now plays SC2 in team TSL. With lack of other leadership, Coach Ha has been very strict on the players and pushed them very hard, which caused the players to make complaints.
This is true. This isn't really Coach Ha's fault, but more of players who don't know their place. They are asking for a lot, but their skill level isn't good enough, so the coach naturally pushed them harder, and obviously restricts players' free time and they would get frustrated. They should really look back and study their current situation. Even if they go to another team, they won't be able to adjust very well.
6. Gretech is not willing to back out from shutting MBCgame out of Proleague. From the beginning, Gretech didn't really want proleague to start at all. They don't want the original Saturday through Wednesday schedule as it will conflict with GSL, but KeSPA is not willing to negotiate on that matter. So Gretech took the position that MBCgame cannot broadcast Proleague, which makes running Proleague basically impossible.
No response
7. KeSPA is still looking to start Proleague on 16th or 23rd, regardless of the negotiation with Gretech. Their thought is that even if there is some lawsuit, they will be able to win against a mere game company. Gretech has already sent KeSPA the necessary documents to prove that they alone have the right to open any tournaments with Blizzard games in Korea, and also publicly stated that they will take this to the court if KeSPA forces Proleague.
This is true
8. iloveoov is pretty much confirmed as the player with the same ID in SC (Choi Yeon Seung). He will wait for the negotiations to end, but if Proleague doesn't happen, he will transition to SC2 and play it until he has to go to the army.
There is no information/confirmation regarding this. What is true is that people are practicing SC2 within SK T1 team. Coaching staff can do so freely.
9. Reach is finishing his military service on October 29th and is rumored to transition to SC2 as well. He recently had his last vacation days, and have mentioned his intention to his friends. Anytime finishes his service on the same day as well, but there's no word regarding his future. Btw, Yellow finishes his service on December 30th.
No confirmation, but Anytime did play SC2 when he was recently on vacation leave.
10. KeSPA has already found a sponsor for the Proleague, but only when they finish the negotiation with Gretech. (see item 6)
11. Hite Sparkys and CJ Entus will combine to become one team, Hite Entus (this was confirmed recently). If you didn't know, CJ Media bought OnMedia, which is a parent company of Ongamenet. Hite Sparkys is encouraging B team players and practice players to transition to SC2. You can find the article at http://www.fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=111075&db=issue
13. Almost all teams have no players other than their A team, and basically have no new players.
Confirmed
14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
It is true that he's practicing, but not sure about GSL related issues.
15. Former SK T1 coach Ju Hoon and Former KT (then KTF) coach Jeong Su Young is looking to create SC2 team. Coach Jeong has been looking into this since around the time Team NEX formed. It is also rumored that Boxer will most likely follow Coach Ju when he forms the team.
Coach Ju news is true.
16. Within KeSPA, it's CJ vs KT/SK fight. It is rumored that CJ is leaking most of the information we hear regarding the KeSPA and the negotiation to drop their credit and eventually have someone from CJ be the president. (For those who don't really know, when KeSPA first formed, it wasn't this "evil group". It changed when the 2nd president was named and SK has been in control for prolonged period of time. This is also when KeSPA started to charge for Proleague broadcasting fee, which basically initiated this whole mess IMO).
It's actually CJ vs SK vs KT. Rest of the teams, including KT, is basically saying whoever wins is our side. As far as CJ leaking rumors, it's what SK's Jo Man Su said and it's most likely not true. I believe it's an issue with the Daily. Daily and Jo Man Su are main source of KeSPA related news. I hope they do well together (Daily refers to E-sports Daily, which is a korean e-sports online newspaper).
17. A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently re-signed (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones).
18. A progame team is looking to transition to SC2 or buy a current SC2 team. Responses are positive and talk is moving forward very fast. (At least front office related people know this and it can even be one of the big SC2 teams like oGs, Prime, TSL).
Ongamenet is trying to quieten the rumors as much as possible by using their broadcaster Um Jae Kyeong (you can follow him on twitter @ http://twitter.com/JackYeongOng if you know Korean), but most fans don't really believe.
Interesting Tweets. Ongamenet Commentator Um Jae Kyeong As far as SC2 broadcasting rights are concerned, commentators don't know anything. I hope bargaining(?) goes well this time. People say that GSL1 broadcasting was ruined by third party when it was pretty much set. Ongamenet is not that weak.
Ongamenet Official Twitter There is nothing set at this moment. At this time, we cannot give an official answer. When we make a final decision, we'll inform you via Twitter.
Fomos Reporter Sim Hyun (he's one of the oldest and most respected reporter in the scene) 1+1 is 2. But in this world, 1+1 is sometimes 1. You will soon see this equation again
There will be few storms in the future of eSports scene. I wish I can only give you good news, but there aren't really any... There aren't many days with clear weather in eSports.
I'm sorry I have confused you with just short sentences. I'm just as frustrated, so I left few words. I'll let you know the details as soon as it's finalized. What's true is things have to go in the direction for the progamers and eSports fans.
KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon IP and public property is important, but... People don't know the biggest hurdle in the negotiations and are just arguing with themselves. I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
16. Within KeSPA, it's CJ vs KT/SK fight. It is rumored that CJ is leaking most of the information we hear regarding the KeSPA and the negotiation to drop their credit and eventually have someone from CJ be the president. (For those who don't really know, when KeSPA first formed, it wasn't this "evil group". It changed when the 2nd president was named and SK has been in control for prolonged period of time. This is also when KeSPA started to charge for Proleague broadcasting fee, which basically initiated this whole mess IMO).
Watching Coach Ha on the Hyungjoon show I never would have guessed the players hated him. I guess it's just a rumor though? Then again, 'reality TV' vs. rumor... which one is less reliable lol.
11. Hite Sparkys and CJ Entus will combine to become one team, Hite Entus (this was confirmed recently). If you didn't know, CJ Media bought OnMedia, which is a parent company of Ongamenet. Hite Sparkys is encouraging B team players and practice players to transition to SC2.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
Effort will be the highest skilled A teamer to convert over to SC2.
No offense, but some of the denyers need to get their head out of their a**. With iloveoov and Effort switching over to SC2, former coaches trying to form SC2 teams, and current BW team with no B-teamers, BW Pro League is in a lot of trouble.
I wish SC2 never came out and Gretech never existed. I agree with konadora. Everyone involved killed something beautiful. If even 2-3 more of these rumors are true, it's fucking terrible and a total disaster.
Meh, I think it's over if half of this rumour is true honestly. Will be interested in how this all ends up, will be pretty sad-faced if Starcraft 2 fails to develop similarly large scene that was once prevalent in its predecessor.
If all this is true, it is really fucked up and bad news. Bw shouldn't ever end cause it is the best a seriously FFFUUUUU SC2 for doing this to the bw scene. Anyways it is really logical step as SC2 can make much much more money than BW to everyone involved and that is what companies do - make money. I was saying this since the beginning that only one pro of SC2 is money
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
On October 13 2010 02:00 vectorix108 wrote: so effort retires to "take a new direction in his life", and that became SCII? wtf..... come back to BW.....
Doesn't CJ own Gretech as well as Ongamenet? So they're essentially using Gretech to be A-holes towards Kespa unless KT/SK lets them control Kespa? That's a possibility considering how differently Gretech is treating Ongamenet vs MBCgame.
And it seems Ongamenet is banking too much on Boxer becoming a force in SC2. What if they get the rights but he doesn't do well?
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
It's not like SC2 had it's time to win us over from february, is it? I'd respect this kind of thing usually as an opinion, but as for now, it feels as if I'm being offered a janitorial job the moment after failing university.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
Omg..Broodwar can't end...NOOOO Broodwar can only end after I die. These rumors sucks... Effort's lame but smart I guess. BROODWARrrr.....................
On October 13 2010 02:07 andrewlt wrote: Doesn't CJ own Gretech as well as Ongamenet? So they're essentially using Gretech to be A-holes towards Kespa unless KT/SK lets them control Kespa? That's a possibility considering how differently Gretech is treating Ongamenet vs MBCgame.
And it seems Ongamenet is banking too much on Boxer becoming a force in SC2. What if they get the rights but he doesn't do well?
I don`t know a lot about the subject but I guess Boxer would bring a lot of spotlight to GSL and SC2 no matter how he does, being such an icon.
Depressing.... I still hope BW scene manages to survive but it seems less and less probable every day.
On October 13 2010 02:07 andrewlt wrote: And it seems Ongamenet is banking too much on Boxer becoming a force in SC2. What if they get the rights but he doesn't do well?
its not about boxer doing well at sc2. its just that boxer is the definition of starcraft.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
Effort will be the highest skilled A teamer to convert over to SC2.
No offense, but some of the denyers need to get their head out of their a**. With iloveoov and Effort switching over to SC2, former coaches trying to form SC2 teams, and current BW team with no B-teamers, BW Pro League is in a lot of trouble.
No offense , but this are still only rumors . Unless it's official it means nothing . There is also the rumor that Mike Morhaime was "bitchslaped" by the korean government . I'm geting tired of this rumors .
I really don't see any resolution to this conflict except in court. At this stage it seems like both parties aren't too willing to negotiate. Not sure what I think about what CJ is doing honestly. Honestly I think it's likely that it will kill e-sports if they keep doing it. Of course, I hope these rumors are just utter bullshit and they do solve it.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
I agree with most of what you said but that's just weak. Come back to me when you've been practicing 12 hours a day for years while wallowing on the B-team with your career at a standstill like so many progamers. Plus, they can see where the wind is blowing -- should they stick it out until they're forced to retire when the teams finally close up shop, without having planned for any contingency?
On October 13 2010 02:07 andrewlt wrote: Doesn't CJ own Gretech as well as Ongamenet? So they're essentially using Gretech to be A-holes towards Kespa unless KT/SK lets them control Kespa? That's a possibility considering how differently Gretech is treating Ongamenet vs MBCgame.
And it seems Ongamenet is banking too much on Boxer becoming a force in SC2. What if they get the rights but he doesn't do well?
No, CJ doesn't own Gretech. Gretech is its own company, and it's main (and basically the only) source of revenue is through GomTV.
Almost all the people in KeSPA are from SK. You can basically say that SK is KeSPA, although it has some influence from other team owners. Most companies with a team isn't strong enough to fight SK, but it seems CJ can and is willing to.
As for Boxer, even if he doesn't do will, he'll make the scene flourish. A lot of old gamers, like Reach and Yellow will do the same, but not to the degree of Boxer. Ongamenet knows that their rating is much higher when Boxer makes Starleague, even if he doesn't go that far.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
Effort will be the highest skilled A teamer to convert over to SC2.
No offense, but some of the denyers need to get their head out of their a**. With iloveoov and Effort switching over to SC2, former coaches trying to form SC2 teams, and current BW team with no B-teamers, BW Pro League is in a lot of trouble.
No offense , but this are still only rumors . Unless it's official it means nothing . There is also the rumor that Mike Morhaime was "bitchslaped" by the korean government .
Said rumor already happened. Government official basically said "Mike Morhaime is just a CEO of some gaming company."
On October 13 2010 02:14 Lightwip wrote: I really don't see any resolution to this conflict except in court. At this stage it seems like both parties aren't too willing to negotiate. Not sure what I think about what CJ is doing honestly. Honestly I think it's likely that it will kill e-sports if they keep doing it. Of course, I hope these rumors are just utter bullshit and they do solve it.
Well, if a company (*cough* CJ *cough*) controls both sides of the negotiation, it's easier to comes to terms, right?
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
I agree with most of what you said but that's just weak. Come back to me when you've been practicing 12 hours a day for years while wallowing on the B-team with your career at a standstill like so many progamers. Plus, they can see where the wind is blowing -- should they stick it out until they're forced to retire when the teams close shop, without having planned for any contingency?
Yea, they don't love the game anymore, is that what you're trying to tell me? Because that's what I said. Sure I don't doubt they loved it at some point. They just don't anymore. Making a contingency plan is different from retiring from your current job and starting a new one. A contingency plan is like... Playing SC2 during your spare time in between practice for BW. They just all jumped ship.
IMO teams will always be looking to recruit former BW pros in SC2. That will never change, so they are set. The problem is that SC2 = money only for results, not for being part of a team. That's why so many people are trying to get that quick cash now. Pretty much they are placing their bets on winning/placing high in the tourney knowing that they won't get a salary if they switch to SC2. I.e. a more primitive proscene is attracting gamers just like going all-in does in poker.
man, that tidbit about there being no more b teams/new players is most disheartening. the skill rise in bw was mostly driven by there always being new players pushing up from below, forcing the A teamers to improve to keep their spots, and giving rise to a new generation of players as time passed. while i would love to watch flash, jaedong, stork, and bisu for another 5 years, the general level of skill in the scene would deteriorate and eventually the scene will die out.. already it looks like the number of players in pro sc2 teams are going to surpass the number of sc1 progamers soon, and most of korea's attention will be on sc2 over bw, which isn't good for bw sponsors. Anyway, I am happy that they are going to force start Proleague and am totally looking forward to it! I'll never take proleague for granted again. -also, there's no doubt in my mind that Effort will be the best player in SC2 a couple months from now if he keeps on practicing.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
Effort will be the highest skilled A teamer to convert over to SC2.
No offense, but some of the denyers need to get their head out of their a**. With iloveoov and Effort switching over to SC2, former coaches trying to form SC2 teams, and current BW team with no B-teamers, BW Pro League is in a lot of trouble.
No offense , but this are still only rumors . Unless it's official it means nothing . There is also the rumor that Mike Morhaime was "bitchslaped" by the korean government . I'm geting tired of this rumors .
I don't want to go over the laundry list of rumors that became reality with respect to BW -> SC2.
Nada rumored to leave Wemade and switch over to SC2? Check
Boxer rumored to leave SKT and switch over to SC2? Check
Iloveoov rumored to be playing SC2 (even though many denied he had time to do it)? Check
On October 13 2010 01:54 Murderotica wrote: I wish SC2 never came out and Gretech never existed. I agree with konadora. Everyone involved killed something beautiful. If even 2-3 more of these rumors are true, it's fucking terrible and a total disaster.
To be honest, as long as copyright/loss of support doesn't sink BW, I think it will recover. A lot of the players will eventually realize that they have no future in SC2 will either return to BW or quit if everyone hates them for going to SC2. But if MSL goes or they don't get PL to run, we'll lose the proscene.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet.
Effort will be the highest skilled A teamer to convert over to SC2.
No offense, but some of the denyers need to get their head out of their a**. With iloveoov and Effort switching over to SC2, former coaches trying to form SC2 teams, and current BW team with no B-teamers, BW Pro League is in a lot of trouble.
No offense , but this are still only rumors . Unless it's official it means nothing . There is also the rumor that Mike Morhaime was "bitchslaped" by the korean government . I'm geting tired of this rumors .
I don't want to go over the laundry list of rumors that became reality with respect to BW -> SC2.
Nada rumored to leave Wemade and switch over to SC2? Check
Boxer rumored to leave Wemade and switch over to SC2? Check
Iloveoov rumored to be playing SC2 (even though many denied he had time to do it)? Check
On October 13 2010 01:54 Murderotica wrote: I wish SC2 never came out and Gretech never existed. I agree with konadora. Everyone involved killed something beautiful. If even 2-3 more of these rumors are true, it's fucking terrible and a total disaster.
Same here .....
Well I guess this is it .... BW will be dead this time next year (or maybe sooner ). Sad but true I cant see BW suriving with all those big names leaving BW and swarming like flies to a new fresh shit.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
So what you're trying to tell me is that these people just blindly decided "IMA BE A PROGAMER" and didn't do any background research on what the system is like, what the (NONPROFIT) organization KeSPA does, and what their futures will be like? You serious? Have you ever applied to a job without knowing what you'll be doing or who will be your boss or what your opportunities will be? IF, on the off-chance that you have, you realize that you were getting fucked over, did you not quit? Why would these gamers wait for SC2 in order to quit if it wasn't just for more money, and not because of a flaw in KeSPA? If KeSPA is so bad, I imagine more pros would quit, and some did. But these players did so only after SC2 came out onto the scene and money was pumped into it. You think there would be anyone but retired vets who probably found no future outside of Esports if there wasn't a 100k payout? I don't.
Without KeSPA there would be no scene as we know and love it today. That is all. Sure they have fucked up at times, but what major corporation/company hasn't?
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
On October 13 2010 02:32 Lightwip wrote: To be honest, as long as copyright/loss of support doesn't sink BW, I think it will recover. A lot of the players will eventually realize that they have no future in SC2 will either return to BW or quit if everyone hates them for going to SC2. But if MSL goes or they don't get PL to run, we'll lose the proscene.
If they can keep proleague going, I think the BW scene will survive.
On October 13 2010 02:32 Lightwip wrote: To be honest, as long as copyright/loss of support doesn't sink BW, I think it will recover. A lot of the players will eventually realize that they have no future in SC2 will either return to BW or quit if everyone hates them for going to SC2. But if MSL goes or they don't get PL to run, we'll lose the proscene.
If they can keep proleague going, I think the BW scene will survive.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
I agree with most of what you said but that's just weak. Come back to me when you've been practicing 12 hours a day for years while wallowing on the B-team with your career at a standstill like so many progamers. Plus, they can see where the wind is blowing -- should they stick it out until they're forced to retire when the teams close shop, without having planned for any contingency?
Yea, they don't love the game anymore, is that what you're trying to tell me? Because that's what I said. Sure I don't doubt they loved it at some point. They just don't anymore. Making a contingency plan is different from retiring from your current job and starting a new one. A contingency plan is like... Playing SC2 during your spare time in between practice for BW. They just all jumped ship.
IMO teams will always be looking to recruit former BW pros in SC2. That will never change, so they are set. The problem is that SC2 = money only for results, not for being part of a team. That's why so many people are trying to get that quick cash now. Pretty much they are placing their bets on winning/placing high in the tourney knowing that they won't get a salary if they switch to SC2. I.e. a more primitive proscene is attracting gamers just like going all-in does in poker.
And the reason they don't love the game anymore isn't because of capitalism or SC2 but because they have been treated as slaves in their current situation. Your argument about having to win to make any money is totally false as well, as plenty of players (in Korean and elsewhere) are already getting paid by sponsors to play and this will only increase with time. Pro teams will develop, players will get paid salaries, and sign contracts just like in BW.
So many people have a such a warped view of this situation because of their love for BW. If you expected BW leagues to continue and thrive forever you were severely out of touch with reality and this is probably a good thing for you. Stop acting like you are personally being persecuted because of corporate greed. I mean, you probably are, but not because of SC.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
I agree with most of what you said but that's just weak. Come back to me when you've been practicing 12 hours a day for years while wallowing on the B-team with your career at a standstill like so many progamers. Plus, they can see where the wind is blowing -- should they stick it out until they're forced to retire when the teams close shop, without having planned for any contingency?
Yea, they don't love the game anymore, is that what you're trying to tell me? Because that's what I said. Sure I don't doubt they loved it at some point. They just don't anymore. Making a contingency plan is different from retiring from your current job and starting a new one. A contingency plan is like... Playing SC2 during your spare time in between practice for BW. They just all jumped ship.
IMO teams will always be looking to recruit former BW pros in SC2. That will never change, so they are set. The problem is that SC2 = money only for results, not for being part of a team. That's why so many people are trying to get that quick cash now. Pretty much they are placing their bets on winning/placing high in the tourney knowing that they won't get a salary if they switch to SC2. I.e. a more primitive proscene is attracting gamers just like going all-in does in poker.
And the reason they don't love the game anymore isn't because of capitalism or SC2 but because they have been treated as slaves in their current situation. Your argument about having to win to make any money is totally false as well, as plenty of players (in Korean and elsewhere) are already getting paid by sponsors to play and this will only increase with time. Pro teams will develop, players will get paid salaries, and sign contracts just like in BW.
So many people have a such a warped view of this situation because of their love for BW. If you expected BW leagues to continue and thrive forever you were severely out of touch with reality and this is probably a good thing for you. Stop acting like you are personally being persecuted because of corporate greed. I mean, you probably are, but not because of SC.
The slavery is what was needed to make progamers capable of winning money in the first place, as evidenced by the high level of competition. If SC2 DOESN'T become something similar, that is a flaw in SC2. To be the best you have to work the hardest, and in BW that means 12+ hours a day. This is not slavery, this is work. I imagine SC2 is a lot easier to play right now than BW is for the progamers who are B-teamers and retired vets, otherwise they wouldn't put all their chips in it. So therefore, it IS because of SC2 money whoring.
I am not being persecuted, it's not a stab at the fans but at BW, which is similar but completely different.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
Well KeSPA=the sponsors associated together to control the scene, so KeSPA=the investors and broadcasters who're seeing SC2 as a way to garner more viewership and thus more eyeballs for their advertisement.
On October 13 2010 02:32 Lightwip wrote: To be honest, as long as copyright/loss of support doesn't sink BW, I think it will recover. A lot of the players will eventually realize that they have no future in SC2 will either return to BW or quit if everyone hates them for going to SC2. But if MSL goes or they don't get PL to run, we'll lose the proscene.
With only one individual league and no salaries there isn't enough room in SC2 for all these players anyway... i think there's going to be a lot of people switching and then shortly retiring after being unable to win something.
Also as an aside with so many young talented gamers how long are players like Boxer and NaDa really going to be at or near the top anyway, i guess they are just doing it for the possibility of some easy money while the competition is still weak, but long-term i can't see it.
Really i wish KeSPA had just been given control over SC2 in the first place because this is a horrible mess. Imagine if every team could have just had an SC2 division, and just have direct clones of the starleagues for SC2: So proleague, OSL2 and MSL2. People keep their salaries, players stay with their teams, TV deals basically already made. It'd be perfect and keep everyone happy. Now we got the whole scene split in 2 and destroying itself for fucking Gretech to run things... i feel especially bad for the up and coming players in BW who have probably played for a few years and now they get onto teams its all falling apart ffs... so sad.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
KeSPA doesn't make money the same way not a single Hollywood movie makes money. *wink* *wink*
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
So what you're trying to tell me is that these people just blindly decided "IMA BE A PROGAMER" and didn't do any background research on what the system is like, what the (NONPROFIT) organization KeSPA does, and what their futures will be like? You serious? Have you ever applied to a job without knowing what you'll be doing or who will be your boss or what your opportunities will be? IF, on the off-chance that you have, you realize that you were getting fucked over, did you not quit? Why would these gamers wait for SC2 in order to quit if it wasn't just for more money, and not because of a flaw in KeSPA? If KeSPA is so bad, I imagine more pros would quit, and some did. But these players did so only after SC2 came out onto the scene and money was pumped into it. You think there would be anyone but retired vets who probably found no future outside of Esports if there wasn't a 100k payout? I don't.
Without KeSPA there would be no scene as we know and love it today. That is all. Sure they have fucked up at times, but what major corporation/company hasn't?
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
Ok let's sort a few things out: 1) Stop taking such an aggressive tone for no reason, I have not been remotely antagonistic, i've been trying to be helpful and explanatory and you're getting defensive for no reason I can think of.
2) KeSPA is a non-profit organisation yes, they are however a constituent panel of associated sponsors, all of whom are intently for-profit, KeSPA was created with the intent to further the appeal of eSports and as a result generate more viewers for the constituent's advertising.
3) The situation with regards to working conditions and expectations has got consistantly worse over time, it's not a static thing and yes, later players probably do know what they're getting into, that said the vast majority are under the age of 17 and in the pursuit of what the top players achieve people make many bad/rash decisions under the pretense that they're not like the other guys who end up as B-teamers for years.
4) Once players have been in the system to the point where they might have retired, they've already given up very large portions of their education and realistically they don't have a lot of options outside of eSports.
5) The 100k payout is not the attraction for players to switch unless they're really really naive, however the attraction of a league and tournament structure that has that sort of prizepool is, because it means teams and sponsors that can financially support a player in a stable manner. Nearly all the winners of OSLs and MSLs and now the GSL give nearly all the winnings to their parents or their team anyway, these are kids who don't want a whole lot of stuff other than to play games all day, they're not looking to get a Benz.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
KeSPA doesn't make money the same way not a single Hollywood movie makes money. *wink* *wink*
KeSPA is essentially an advertisement venture, so no, they don't make any money. They advertise in the hope of selling more of whatever products the sponsoring companies make, but they don't make a direct profit from the proscene. I don't know why people find this hard to understand; when Adidas sponsors a football team, you don't say, "Adidas is making money."
On October 13 2010 02:07 andrewlt wrote: Doesn't CJ own Gretech as well as Ongamenet? So they're essentially using Gretech to be A-holes towards Kespa unless KT/SK lets them control Kespa? That's a possibility considering how differently Gretech is treating Ongamenet vs MBCgame.
And it seems Ongamenet is banking too much on Boxer becoming a force in SC2. What if they get the rights but he doesn't do well?
Knowing a little something about business I wouldn't be surprised if a complex conflict of interests situation like this was the cause for all the trouble. Especially since the Korean government itself is involved in this and corruption is rampaging there. Mix in the aspirations from a foreign multi-national company and you have a nice powder-keg sitting under the whole Korean BW/SC2 scene. Thinking about this I can't help but to expect this all to end in disaster, probably even taking the SC2 scene down with it until Blizzard pulls the plug.
What the scene would need (just like the banking/rating sector before the financial crisis) were regulations by an independent governing body, but there is just no independent party in sight, since even the Ministry of Culture would not be regarded as unbiased by all participants.
If only half of these rumors is true, that'll spell the end of Broodwar. What a damn shame, BW and SC2 could have easily coexisted if not for politics. Hundreds of jobs are lost and young progamers are left jobless and without any proper education. I prefer watching SC2 at the moment because it's new and shiny, but who knows if it can stand the test of time and support a huge pro scene like Broodwar could?
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
KeSPA doesn't make money the same way not a single Hollywood movie makes money. *wink* *wink*
KeSPA is essentially an advertisement venture, so no, they don't make any money. They advertise in the hope of selling more of whatever products the sponsoring companies make, but they don't make a direct profit from the proscene. I don't know why people find this hard to understand; when Adidas sponsors a football team, you don't say, "Adidas is making money."
Indirect profit is still profit. I don't see how a vehicle to create massive free advertising for its sponsor companies would be considered a non-profit venture. For tax purposes, yes. For all other purposes, no. There's a reason why tax accounting is different from financial accounting and why balance sheet, income sheet and statement of cash flows are three separate documents.
On October 13 2010 03:03 Asta wrote:What the scene would need (just like the banking/rating sector before the financial crisis) were regulations by an independent governing body, but there is just no independent party in sight, since even the Ministry of Culture would not be regarded as unbiased by all participants.
Maybe if KeSPA became a government organization with elected officials or something. But government backing would be good.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
This is all pretty depressing. I was still hopeful until today. Now, however... If there is no more pro-BW in Korea then I will not ever do business again with Activision, Blizzard or Gretech.
they talk about third party ruining gsl1 , but almost every day in witch there was gsl and i connect with 15 minutes later , i couldn't connect at all ............. always saying w8 a little more there is no room for u (ah and it's low quality) , so ofcourse i will watch a restream that is in high quality
p.s something pure as bw e-sport stage was destroyed , i'm so sad , but one thing gives me consolation surly sc2 wont succed
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
That's why KeSPA is pissing me off too. Blizzard and Gretech started this whole bullshit, but my one small hope was that competition from SC2 would force KeSPA to inject more money into the scene, improve players' work conditions etc. Instead they'll just jump ship. :/
AFAIK they don't have money, they have to get it from other people, and why would anyone invest in something if all the money is going elsewhere? Investors will be like "omg old game" and not invest a cent. KeSPA is a non-profit organization so to me this means that they only cover their own expenses and the money they generate is already re-invested in broadcasting, organizing, and moderating the scene. I'm sure that if KeSPA had 100k laying around they would make tournaments similar to GSL or at least revitalize the scene.
KeSPA doesn't make money the same way not a single Hollywood movie makes money. *wink* *wink*
KeSPA is essentially an advertisement venture, so no, they don't make any money. They advertise in the hope of selling more of whatever products the sponsoring companies make, but they don't make a direct profit from the proscene. I don't know why people find this hard to understand; when Adidas sponsors a football team, you don't say, "Adidas is making money."
Indirect profit is still profit. I don't see how a vehicle to create massive free advertising for its sponsor companies would be considered a non-profit venture. For tax purposes, yes. For all other purposes, no. There's a reason why tax accounting is different from financial accounting and why balance sheet, income sheet and statement of cash flows are three separate documents.
You can hardly say there's a profit when its not even measurable. Who categorizes advertisement as profit ever? I've never heard anyone refer to it as that. It's pretty misleading for people to keep suggesting on here like KeSPA is making tons of money from BW when it's a very niche scene that requires a lot of money for upkeep.
17. A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones).
Don't sell out, guys.
I actually think its great that low level A-Teamers or B-Teamers switch. But, please no to players rumoured.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
His coach that is. Furthermore, playing SC2 doesn't mean he is gonna make a career of it. It all comes down to what he wants with his life which nobody knows except himself.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
Because they were deniers. Many of these posters that denied Effort switching to SC2 also denied the Nada rumours, the Boxer rumours, and the JulyZerg rumours.
If these deniers had used their common sense, they would realize that a top 3 BW Pro (yes, I rank Effort as top 3 after Flash and Jaedong) that is making at least $100K a year (maybe Effort was making even $200K or more?), doesn't leave that comfortable salary and job for nothing.
Effort didn't want to milk his salary and winnings in BW to the end and sacrificed it to get a head start in SC2. Kudos to him and I hope he does well in GSL3.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
His coach that is. Furthermore, playing SC2 doesn't mean is gonna make a career of it. It all comes down to what he wants with his life and nobody knows.
You are pretty silly. He retired because he wanted to do other things with his life other than pro-gaming, yet if that rumor is true and he is even practicing sc2 at any significant level, it was obviously a flakey cop out excuse to retire and then turn around to get into sc2.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
Because they were deniers. Many of these posters that denied Effort switching to SC2 also denied the Nada rumours, the Boxer rumours, and the JulyZerg rumours.
If these deniers had used their common sense, they would realize that a top 3 BW Pro (yes, I rank Effort as top 3 after Flash and Jaedong) that is making at least $100K a year (maybe Effort was making even $200K or more?), doesn't leave that comfortable salary and job for nothing.
Effort didn't want to milk his salary and winnings in BW to the end and sacrificed it to get a head start in SC2. Kudos to him and I hope he does well in GSL3.
Um they denied it because he said specifically he wasn't pursuing a career in SC2.
My thoughts on the European company trying to sponsor someone is that it'd probably a shortsighted move... a few years down the line or less when the popularity of pro SC2 inevitably dwindles outside of Korea, what reason would the company have for continued sponsorship.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
Because they were deniers. Many of these posters that denied Effort switching to SC2 also denied the Nada rumours, the Boxer rumours, and the JulyZerg rumours.
If these deniers had used their common sense, they would realize that a top 3 BW Pro (yes, I rank Effort as top 3 after Flash and Jaedong) that is making at least $100K a year (maybe Effort was making even $200K or more?), doesn't leave that comfortable salary and job for nothing.
Effort didn't want to milk his salary and winnings in BW to the end and sacrificed it to get a head start in SC2. Kudos to him and I hope he does well in GSL3.
Um they denied it because he said specifically he wasn't pursuing a career in SC2.
Actually his coach said that, but sorta like tester and cool wanted to chill and just have fun right? Then they make a new team shortly after leaving ogs.
if a person as succesful as effort actually left the bw scene to play sc2, i guess we underestimate how bad the living conditions were for these pros, much less the practice partners and B-teamers. Practice partners even has to eat the less nice food and do errands in the training house. It was something similar to slavery it seems and even if you initially loved the game and do it for the passion, at some point, they were probably sick of it.
I am guessing that effort wish for a change in environment was the reason for the switch. I doubt it was because he liked sc2 more than bw or that he wanted to get a headstart.( i am assuming here).
If these rumours were to be true and if there is anything to be learnt from the inevitable death of bw, it will be that the authority(whoever it will be, Kespa or Gretch) will reward these athletes who pour in 12+ hours of training better living condition and salary. And i mean across the board and not just the Flashes and Jaedongs.
It will be a waste the whole spartan regime just end up transferring from sc2 to bw. BW has a lot of good things for SC2 to copy from but this is not one of them I feel.
On October 13 2010 03:14 robertdinh wrote: I seem to remember people adamantly claiming that effort didn't retire to play sc2.
Because they were deniers. Many of these posters that denied Effort switching to SC2 also denied the Nada rumours, the Boxer rumours, and the JulyZerg rumours.
If these deniers had used their common sense, they would realize that a top 3 BW Pro (yes, I rank Effort as top 3 after Flash and Jaedong) that is making at least $100K a year (maybe Effort was making even $200K or more?), doesn't leave that comfortable salary and job for nothing.
Effort didn't want to milk his salary and winnings in BW to the end and sacrificed it to get a head start in SC2. Kudos to him and I hope he does well in GSL3.
Um they denied it because he said specifically he wasn't pursuing a career in SC2.
Actually his coach said that, but sorta like tester and cool wanted to chill and just have fun right? Then they make a new team shortly after leaving ogs.
Yup. Agree with this ^^^
They deny switching to SC2 one day, and the next day, they either join a SC2 team or form a SC2 team, rofl.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon IP and public property is important, but... People don't know the biggest hurdle in the negotiations and are just arguing with themselves. I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
Seems like the majority of TL, myself included, could take note from this. I'm already extremely upset from this statement.
The problem is that the "negociations" are taking so long with a such incertain end, most bw progamers must feel scared about their future. Hell, they still don't know if they'll have any leagues and tourneys to play in this year ! So you can't blame them to take the safe road : the GSL with it 200k$/month prizepool.
They have to pay the rent and the food like everyone each month, just imagine if you boss told you that perhaps next month you'll be fired, but perhaps not, how can anyone find motivation in this ? The companies faling to negociate are responsible for their own doom.
about the b-teamers : it seems that even if kespa won the court case, irreparable damage has been done. What will happen to all these B-teamers and partners that Kespa will deem traitors.
"17. A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones)."
i would really like to know what company that is. but i think it has to be some mainstream company like VW or Adidas which would be huge for esports.
And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
On October 13 2010 03:24 r3d33m3r wrote: good now even the biggest doubters know that this is the end of broodwar. looking forward to sc2 world domiantion!
@StarcraftMan: this man speaks the truth^^
dude fuck off, this certainly is not the end yet. honestly, stick to the sc2 forums. we won't bother you if you don't bother us like this.
i cant believe how you can be so sure that this is the end of bw. you are clearly someone who loves sc2 and doesnt know the history behind the game. once again, gtfo.
On October 13 2010 03:32 MrCon wrote: They have to pay the rent and the food like everyone each month
Actually they don't. They live in the team practice houses and have hired help to cook them food and do various other chores around the house... most teams do anyway.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
On October 13 2010 03:27 dtz wrote: if a person as succesful as effort actually left the bw scene to play sc2, i guess we underestimate how bad the living conditions were for these pros, much less the practice partners and B-teamers. Practice partners even has to eat the less nice food and do errands in the training house. It was something similar to slavery it seems and even if you initially loved the game and do it for the passion, at some point, they were probably sick of it.
I am guessing that effort wish for a change in environment was the reason for the switch. I doubt it was because he liked sc2 more than bw or that he wanted to get a headstart.( i am assuming here).
If these rumours were to be true and if there is anything to be learnt from the inevitable death of bw, it will be that the authority(whoever it will be, Kespa or Gretch) will reward these athletes who pour in 12+ hours of training better living condition and salary. And i mean across the board and not just the Flashes and Jaedongs.
It will be a waste the whole spartan regime just end up transferring from sc2 to bw. BW has a lot of good things for SC2 to copy from but this is not one of them I feel.
Huh? Maybe it comes as a shock to you that in an organisation the more senior pple get to pick their food first and that elders get juniors to run errands for them. But this is nothing new and certainly not limited to progaming. It's just the way many Asian cultures are.
In my family the kids can't eat yet until the adults start eating. Same logic.
It's a culture where seniority matters a lot and if you're going to liken that to slavery, then that's very insulting.
95% these people going to SC2 will realize they won't win jack shit then return to make a fixed earning with BW. As long as ProLeague survives this full year, it will give them enough time to realize the fact that Blizzard-E-spots is a sham.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
The best way to ensure SC2 becomes a bigger success than BW is to get Blizzard to spend more time making SC2 better, rather than suing people to try to shut BW down and get pros to switch.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
I agree with most of what you said but that's just weak. Come back to me when you've been practicing 12 hours a day for years while wallowing on the B-team with your career at a standstill like so many progamers. Plus, they can see where the wind is blowing -- should they stick it out until they're forced to retire when the teams close shop, without having planned for any contingency?
Yea, they don't love the game anymore, is that what you're trying to tell me? Because that's what I said. Sure I don't doubt they loved it at some point. They just don't anymore. Making a contingency plan is different from retiring from your current job and starting a new one. A contingency plan is like... Playing SC2 during your spare time in between practice for BW. They just all jumped ship.
IMO teams will always be looking to recruit former BW pros in SC2. That will never change, so they are set. The problem is that SC2 = money only for results, not for being part of a team. That's why so many people are trying to get that quick cash now. Pretty much they are placing their bets on winning/placing high in the tourney knowing that they won't get a salary if they switch to SC2. I.e. a more primitive proscene is attracting gamers just like going all-in does in poker.
And the reason they don't love the game anymore isn't because of capitalism or SC2 but because they have been treated as slaves in their current situation. Your argument about having to win to make any money is totally false as well, as plenty of players (in Korean and elsewhere) are already getting paid by sponsors to play and this will only increase with time. Pro teams will develop, players will get paid salaries, and sign contracts just like in BW.
So many people have a such a warped view of this situation because of their love for BW. If you expected BW leagues to continue and thrive forever you were severely out of touch with reality and this is probably a good thing for you. Stop acting like you are personally being persecuted because of corporate greed. I mean, you probably are, but not because of SC.
The slavery is what was needed to make progamers capable of winning money in the first place, as evidenced by the high level of competition. If SC2 DOESN'T become something similar, that is a flaw in SC2. To be the best you have to work the hardest, and in BW that means 12+ hours a day. This is not slavery, this is work. I imagine SC2 is a lot easier to play right now than BW is for the progamers who are B-teamers and retired vets, otherwise they wouldn't put all their chips in it. So therefore, it IS because of SC2 money whoring.
I am not being persecuted, it's not a stab at the fans but at BW, which is similar but completely different.
The slavery is needed? That's the most absurd thing I've heard in a while. Do professional football teams play 12+ hours a day every day? No, they don't. I think that is entirely too much and gives the profession a bad name. There should be some restrictions set so that pro gamers don't get burned out.
Another thing is that SC2 is a fun game to watch and play for many people. Not everyone is "jumping ship" because they see more money in SC2 than BW.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
I'll bet you anything that SC2 will never reach the peak of BW. What evidence do you have that it would be a bigger success anyway? Since never indicates that so far at all.
On October 13 2010 03:48 atarianimo wrote: The slavery is needed? That's the most absurd thing I've heard in a while. Do professional football teams play 12+ hours a day every day? No, they don't. I think that is entirely too much and gives the profession a bad name. There should be some restrictions set so that pro gamers don't get burned out.
Another thing is that SC2 is a fun game to watch and play for many people. Not everyone is "jumping ship" because they see more money in SC2 than BW.
Stop fucking misusing the term slavery. And there will always be players willing to put 12+ hours in and the effort needed. And those players will have the advantage. There's people doing that right now.. if you want to compete at the highest level you have to, that's why no foreigners could ever compete in BW.
On October 13 2010 03:46 zenMaster wrote: 95% these people going to SC2 will realize they won't win jack shit then return to make a fixed earning with BW. As long as ProLeague survives this full year, it will give them enough time to realize the fact that Blizzard-E-spots is a sham.
GSL is already too crowded for everyone to make money. Also i wonder how fast the current foreigners in Korea will leave...
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
The best way to ensure SC2 becomes a bigger success than BW is to get Blizzard to spend more time making SC2 better, rather than suing people to try to shut BW down and get pros to switch.
Best thing for blizzard to ensure sc2 becomes a big success is to make sure that sc2 becomes a big success. Why should they even care about an older game? PL can continue, if kespa realizes that it does not own the rights to broadcast blizzard games and that it must negotiate with gretech to get these rights for its league. Blizzard is doing 100% what it thinks is best for esports and blizzard games by setting a precedent. Kespa is truly the only problem in the proleague situation.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
BW is/was still growing, its potential was unlimited, how can you say that you want it to go to the next level when there is no set level to overcome
Yes Broodwar is an awesome game and I really like it (and still do) But what make a game a GOOD game ?
Better, what make a GOOD game an AWESOME game to watch (not even play) ?
Its the players that play it at a really high level. Its those players that come with insane new strategy, micro tricks that make us watch a game and say WOW that is amazing.
In my opinion, we give Broodwar itself too much credit (of course it deserver a lot of it since the game itself is the base of everything) and the players themself deserve most of it for the creativity and perfect execution.
So, whats my point ? Well if we conclude that the PLAYERS are the reason the game is fun to watch, can we conclude that if thoses players (the sames) play another game, that new game will become awesome ? (if we take into consideration that the 2 games have the same BASIC IDEA)
I think we can say yes.
Is BW and SC2 the same game ? of course not Does BW and SC2 share the same BASIC concept ? I think we can say yes.
Can we (anyone of us) honestly say we know everything about SC2 already and that every strategy have been found and exploited ? After seen Cool games in GSL, I think a lot of us got surprised ! So the answer is no.
If those S-Class player showed us AMAZING new trick for years, can we trust them to do the same in SC2 ? I think they deserve that we beleive in them.
So basicly I dont care if a GAME die (been BW or not) What I would care is:
S-Class player not playing anymore No more game of those players been shown to the world so we can enjoy their nice play
And I dont think any of those 2 will happen.
Those progamer worked COUNTLESS hours to prove all of you that their is 1 thing no one tought was possible in a game and they will show it to you, Those players deserve the respect and they deserve that we believe in them in another game (SC2) !
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
The best way to ensure SC2 becomes a bigger success than BW is to get Blizzard to spend more time making SC2 better, rather than suing people to try to shut BW down and get pros to switch.
Best thing for blizzard to ensure sc2 becomes a big success is to make sure that sc2 becomes a big success. Why should they even care about an older game? PL can continue, if kespa realizes that it does not own the rights to broadcast blizzard games and that it must negotiate with gretech to get these rights for its league. Blizzard is doing 100% what it thinks is best for esports and blizzard games by setting a precedent. Kespa is truly the only problem in the proleague situation.
It's funny because you actually believe Blizzard just has the best interests of eSports in mind. Despite all of their actions showing otherwise, from Bnet 2.0 to their activities in Korea. Please try and think for yourself, just a little bit.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
The best way to ensure SC2 becomes a bigger success than BW is to get Blizzard to spend more time making SC2 better, rather than suing people to try to shut BW down and get pros to switch.
Best thing for blizzard to ensure sc2 becomes a big success is to make sure that sc2 becomes a big success. Why should they even care about an older game? PL can continue, if kespa realizes that it does not own the rights to broadcast blizzard games and that it must negotiate with gretech to get these rights for its league. Blizzard is doing 100% what it thinks is best for esports and blizzard games by setting a precedent. Kespa is truly the only problem in the proleague situation.
It's not the best for esports when BW dies, and all of us watch SC2 hoping it will be just as good. This means that our expectations of SC2 will be impossibly high, especially for a game so early in its development as an esport. This means people will be pissed off and disappointed with the whole scene.
The best thing for esports is always for gamers to deliver the best and most high level games possible. Right now BW is the best medium for that. It really hurts thinking about all the great games we saw just in the past year, and how we might not see any of that in the future.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
It would last a really long time. You clearly don't follow the BW scene because the strategies have been constantly evolving. That's what was so great about the game. Who are you to say that BW would not last another 10 years? Just because it's been around for a certain amount of time, we have to "move on?" Hey soccer has been around for ages. It's getting old and boring. Let's spice it up by giving players shoes that can make you accelerate and kick the ball even harder or something like that! Age has nothing to do with ANYTHING.
On October 13 2010 03:49 Amnesia wrote: "sc2 is a fun game to watch"
rofl
Hilarious. I mean, if it was fun to watch, there would be dozens of SC2 streams and hundreds of people watching at any hour of the day. That's clearly not the case. Sorry for my ignorance.
On October 13 2010 03:49 Amnesia wrote: "sc2 is a fun game to watch"
rofl
Hilarious. I mean, if it was fun to watch, there would be dozens of SC2 streams and hundreds of people watching at any hour of the day. That's clearly not the case. Sorry for my ignorance.
Yeah I really prefer watching blob vs blob clusterfuck games. Oh yeah, there really are a lot of SC2 streams. OH WAIT BECAUSE ITS A NEW FUCKING GAME.
You think it wasn't like that before SC2 came out? Yeah, you better be sorry for your ignorance.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
yes i would love to watch a Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals, i'm not sarcastic at all with this statement.
but why can't i watch both Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals and a Flash vs Jaedong (or something else) at the same time?
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
It would last a really long time. You clearly don't follow the BW scene because the strategies have been constantly evolving. That's what was so great about the game. Who are you to say that BW would not last another 10 years? Just because it's been around for a certain amount of time, we have to "move on?" Hey soccer has been around for ages. It's getting old and boring. Let's spice it up by giving players shoes that can make you accelerate and kick the ball even harder or something like that! Age has nothing to do with ANYTHING.
Well the appeal of soccer has never been technology related at its core, and yet technology has changed that game in many ways. But the high-tech appeal was part of Brood War's appeal. There is also no question that starleague crowds have been shrinking, even before Brood War. OSL crowds seem to have been getting smaller since July vs. Best. The proleague final crowd was bigger this year than last, but is still far from the peak.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
It would last a really long time. You clearly don't follow the BW scene because the strategies have been constantly evolving. That's what was so great about the game. Who are you to say that BW would not last another 10 years? Just because it's been around for a certain amount of time, we have to "move on?" Hey soccer has been around for ages. It's getting old and boring. Let's spice it up by giving players shoes that can make you accelerate and kick the ball even harder or something like that! Age has nothing to do with ANYTHING.
The crappy thing about soccer is it focuses on people who are in shape and have good cardio too much. Cardio is boring and hard. If we can adapt the game to new technologies such as shoes that run for you, then we will have a much better and more exciting games as players can devote more energy to kicking the ball rather than running the field. Obviously.
On October 13 2010 03:56 StarcraftMan wrote: You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
How is Cool aka. Fruit Dealer, a new generation SC2 player? I don't see why people should have to look at this from another side. We should be able to get our Flash and Jaedong in BW and Boxer vs Nada in SC2. The situation sucks for people who enjoy only watching BW or people who enjoy watching both. SC2 only fans should stay out of the BW section.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
yes i would love to watch a Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals, i'm not sarcastic at all with this statement.
but why can't i watch both Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals and a Flash vs Jaedong (or something else) at the same time?
Because the korean eSports scene is actually the latest form of the Highlander and as we all know,
On October 13 2010 03:49 Amnesia wrote: "sc2 is a fun game to watch"
rofl
Hilarious. I mean, if it was fun to watch, there would be dozens of SC2 streams and hundreds of people watching at any hour of the day. That's clearly not the case. Sorry for my ignorance.
Yeah I really prefer watching blob vs blob clusterfuck games. Oh yeah, there really are a lot of SC2 streams. OH WAIT BECAUSE ITS A NEW FUCKING GAME.
You think it wasn't like that before SC2 came out? Yeah, you better be sorry for your ignorance.
I feel bad about the way that BW is losing popularity too, so I'm not going to comment on this anymore. Kinda feels like pouring salt on a wound. I just wish Kespa and Blizzard would have negotiated in the beginning and we could have both games survive and flourish.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
yes i would love to watch a Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals, i'm not sarcastic at all with this statement.
but why can't i watch both Boxer vs Nada SC2 finals and a Flash vs Jaedong (or something else) at the same time?
Because the korean eSports scene is actually the latest form of the Highlander and as we all know,
THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!
Noooooo!!! Why can't we just live in peace like Sean Connery wanted to do?
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
this rages me so fucking much.... FUCKING A BLIZZARD, YOU ARE TRAITORS TO THE FANS you won't ever get a single cent from me, ever again. fuck sc2, im glad i was initally boycotting them this just makes sure i will keep my resolve even though so many of my friends play. this is simply disgusting konadora.. i feel you man... someone needs to storm blizzard's hQ and tell them to stop being douchebags. they aren't hurting kespa (they are all multimillion dollar companies larger than blizzard for some of them) but they are hurting the fans!
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
There's been plenty of big companies and eSports events in Europe and the US but how many have lasted successfully and stably for so long? Every new game gets jumped on but only for a short period and that's unfortunately whats wrong with international eSports.
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
because they are sponsoring ONE PLAYER, not a team, just ONE Player for advertising purposes. come back to me when their are 10-20 teams, where every good player is salaried, housed, fed, all in the name of the game
fuCKKKKKKKkk YOUUU BLIZZARD/ACTIVISION you are ruining the one thing i love i'm going to korea for a wedding at christmas time too and wanted to catch a live game. because of you fuckers, it might not come to fruitation. FUCK YOU!
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
This rumour is ridiculous. Idk why people believe that lol.
These rumors are definitely depressing, it certainly looks like BW has met its end.
All things considered it had a great run and entertained us all for countless hours, but all good things must come to an end. I'll definitely remember all the great games and emotional starleague victories, all we can do at this point is hope that SC2 brings us similar (or maybe even better) experiences.
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
There's been plenty of big companies and eSports events in Europe and the US but how many have lasted successfully and stably for so long? Every new game gets jumped on but only for a short period and that's unfortunately whats wrong with international eSports.
My sentiments exactly regarding the big company and the BW Player potential sponsorship.
The big company may just be one of those companies that decide to hop on the initial bandwagon/hype surrounding the eSport, then later just decide to fade away and hop on the next "exciting" game.
When a big company begins to start being interested in running an ACTUAL TEAM, then I'll rethink my thoughts on the potential of SC2.
KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon IP and public property is important, but... People don't know the biggest hurdle in the negotiations and are just arguing with themselves. I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
Wow man that is so depressing... We need more information ffs ! btw @OP thanks for the updates and translations
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
Kona, I don't know how much longer BW Pro League would last even if SC2 never existed. BW Pro League had a great 10 year run but could it last another 10 years?
You have to look at this from another side too. I'm sure you have a sweet spot for Nada, Boxer, etc. Now we can watch our favorite BW Bonjwas become relevant again. Would you not even slightly enjoy a potential Boxer vs Nada final? I'm quite happy that Boxer and Nada can resurrect their career and to be frank, I am cheering for Nada and Boxer over the new generation SC2 players like Fruitdealer, etc.
I don't give two shits about Boxer or anyone else playing SC2 because they are not relevant to me if they are playing SC2. I get no joy from it, it only tells me that they were too weak to compete in SC. Why would I watch inferior players playing an inferior game? Oh sure Boxer might do something awesome but like in BW it will be temporary, and in this case diluted because it's a new game where on the grand scale of things the best players right now are NOT that good, because if they were they would still be playing BW. A washed-up Boxer or Nada is not the Boxer or Nada I want to see. I want to see Boxer nuke rushing Killer, Nada taking Jangbi to 5 sets, etc. etc. Both of them know that that won't happen anymore if they keep playing BW, so they switch to SC2. It's like a C- player knowing he won't ever get to C so he just makes 100 D level accounts and stomps noobs. Boring.
What is happening at the moment is big step backwards for e-sports.
"A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently resigned (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones"
When was the last time a big European company was willing to offer a big contract to a BW player, a contract that is more lucrative than what the local Korean companies are willing to provide? The contract in question obviously pays more than what the team for this player is paying him. How is this a step backwards when big European sponsors are jumping into the E-Sports scene?
Because it's possible that this could kill one of the most successful e-Sports franchises in history (probably the most successful) in favor of a game that has no guarantee of taking off.
Sponsorships are nice, but if no fans show up to games, then the scene will die quickly. Most of these companies that are offering sponsorships are probably assuming, "Hey! Look at how big BW progaming is! That means SC2 will be just as popular!" Really, there's no evidence of that yet.
But admittedly, I don't really care that much about eSports as a whole. For me personally and many others, I just don't see SC2 ever giving me the same excitement that BW did. I would be lying if I said that that doesn't give me some bias in this situation. But even so, I don't think you should necessarily look at companies pouring money into SC2 as a guarantee of success, especially when there's so much shit going on that could disillusion potential fans.
Frankly, it's obvious that Blizzard is trying to kill the current BW scene in Korea at this point, to shove in SC2 in its place. While perhaps profitable, it is a spit in the face to everyone that has built up the BW scene in Korea over 10 years, and it baffles me that you would actually argue it as a good thing. No one should be supporting this.
So you think SC2 will be a better proscene than BW? Okay, if that's true, then let it build on its own. If it really is that much better, then it will eventually develop on its own, and likely kill BW anyway. But it is not cool for Blizzard to just go in with the forceps and tear BW out and stick SC2 in.
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
and kill BW in the process?
sounds awesome! not.
this thread is disgusting and makes me want to puke. i don't want BW to die, i fucking love the game, still play it WPAHFPJEWOPFJPWJFPOPWE RAGE!!! blizzard just doesn't give a fuck for it's most loyal supporters throughout the decade warcraft 2, 5 copies of sc 1 for cd key, 2 copies of d2/lod, 3 copies of warraft/ft.... and now they won't ever get my money again. fuckk! rajepfjawepojfpoawefaw
Without getting into the arguments, I'd like to say thank you to sihyunie, Milkis & others for keeping us updated on the latest rumors and information. Will continue to watch for updates.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
what? i do not gain the same satisfaction watching a sc2 game vs bw game. can you seriously say that cool vs rainbow or whoever gaems are better than savior in his prime against nada? jaedong vs fantasy in their epic clashes? jaedong vs flash when it aint one sided? yellow vs boxer... pafowejpajfepoajf sc2 matches don't come close to bw and i am enraged they are trying their best to kill of the best RTS game in the world. fuck sc2 i hope it fails
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: 3. Ongamenet is not very confident that they will be broadcasting Proleague. This is reflected in that they slotted their Kartrider league on Tuesdays 6:30PM, which would conflict with Proleague's 5 day schedule.
Ongamenet will still do Proleague, just on weekends.
4. MBCgame appears to be going in the direction of completely shutting down MSL. As most of you know, they forced Bigfile MSL and STX Masters Cup without any negotiation with Gretech. This has caused Gretech to completely ignore MBCgame in any of their negotiations.
MBCgame cannot open an individual league even if it wants to. With them likely to not be a part of Proleague, they are looking to move in another direction. Probably will take at least 6 months. If they can't be a part of Proleague, they are looking into giving up MBCgame HERO team.
6. Gretech is not willing to back out from shutting MBCgame out of Proleague. From the beginning, Gretech didn't really want proleague to start at all. They don't want the original Saturday through Wednesday schedule as it will conflict with GSL, but KeSPA is not willing to negotiate on that matter. So Gretech took the position that MBCgame cannot broadcast Proleague, which makes running Proleague basically impossible.
No more MSL? No more OSL? No more proleague?
Fuck, I feel so fucking ashamed to have this starcraft 2 cd in my tray right now. Hands are shaking I'm so upset.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
what? i do not gain the same satisfaction watching a sc2 game vs bw game. can you seriously say that cool vs rainbow or whoever gaems are better than savior in his prime against nada? jaedong vs fantasy in their epic clashes? jaedong vs flash when it aint one sided? yellow vs boxer... pafowejpajfepoajf sc2 matches don't come close to bw and i am enraged they are trying their best to kill of the best RTS game in the world. fuck sc2 i hope it fails
Wow mad much? SC2 had been out few months BW years. While it is unfortunate that this is happening, you are talking like the players are being forced to switch, while this might end up being true for some, many have taken their own initiatives to do so: Effort, MVP, NaDa, Boxer to name a few. Jaedong has voiced his thoughts on SC2 and said he sees himself switching when the time is right.
There is interest to switch to SC2 from the SC1 scene. This situation is unfortunate and I am saddened by it, but given the history of Gretech, OGN, MBC and Kespa and their past conflicts, it it not suprising for Gretech to be giving a big "fuck you" to them.
I have no sympathy for Kespa or any other party in this situation, I just feel bad for the current players and commentators, especially some of the up and comers who are getting caught in the crossfire.
They dont really know what will happen in the future, their current lifestyle is threatened. Their scene is in disarray, while SC2 is thriving. Overall not a very good situation for them.
Even though SC2 got me back into the scene and that is my current interest, I was really hoping to get into and watch the SC1 scene this coming PL
On October 13 2010 04:41 Shizuru~ wrote: my my, doesn't these BW fanboys that clings on to their dying sport sounds exactly like religious fanatics/evangelist?
my my, don't these SC2 fanboys that preach their new and upcoming "sport" sound exactly like preachers of new religion, pointing out flaws in the old religious systems?
On October 13 2010 04:41 Shizuru~ wrote: my my, doesn't these BW fanboys that clings on to their dying sport sounds exactly like religious fanatics/evangelist?
/facepalm
we enjoy watching BW more than SC2. what is so irrational about that?
I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
On October 13 2010 04:45 TOloseGT wrote: This is awesome news for SC2.
I'm sincerely sorry for BW fans if these rumors are true though. Hopefully in time you'll enjoy watching SC2.
If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
On October 13 2010 01:49 konadora wrote: fuck you activision fuck you blizzard fuck you gretech fuck you kespa
i feel so disgusted right now
Relax man, I love brood war as much as the next guy, really I do. But you dont have to look at this cup as half empty, you know? With all our Brood War heroes coming to SC2 with pomp and circumstance, we are witnessing the growth of what we already loved.
By the release of legacy of the void, heres to hoping the we will look back at this time and smile.
We are not witnessing a growth we are witnessing a surrender to capitalist ideals. We can't blame them for wanting to secure a better fiscal future for themselves, but by that token we shouldn't hate Benedict Arnold for switching to what he thought was the winning side. A logical decision can have moral downfalls. That's how I feel. At the first true speedbump in the smooth running of PL, suddenly everyone jumps ship and swims to the enemy, instead of trying to keep SC1 alive they have dollar signs in their eyes. Fuck, I would do the same thing if I didn't absolutely love the game. Makes it obvious to me that progamers are just laborers, looking for the bigger check, not people who truly love the game.
You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
So what you're trying to tell me is that these people just blindly decided "IMA BE A PROGAMER" and didn't do any background research on what the system is like, what the (NONPROFIT) organization KeSPA does, and what their futures will be like? You serious? Have you ever applied to a job without knowing what you'll be doing or who will be your boss or what your opportunities will be? IF, on the off-chance that you have, you realize that you were getting fucked over, did you not quit? Why would these gamers wait for SC2 in order to quit if it wasn't just for more money, and not because of a flaw in KeSPA? If KeSPA is so bad, I imagine more pros would quit, and some did. But these players did so only after SC2 came out onto the scene and money was pumped into it. You think there would be anyone but retired vets who probably found no future outside of Esports if there wasn't a 100k payout? I don't.
Without KeSPA there would be no scene as we know and love it today. That is all. Sure they have fucked up at times, but what major corporation/company hasn't?
I already said that I can't blame progamers for leaving for the money. It just is depressing, because money rules everything, and a superior game will die just because it doesn't have enough money being pumped into it compared to other games.
Ok let's sort a few things out: 1) Stop taking such an aggressive tone for no reason, I have not been remotely antagonistic, i've been trying to be helpful and explanatory and you're getting defensive for no reason I can think of.
2) KeSPA is a non-profit organisation yes, they are however a constituent panel of associated sponsors, all of whom are intently for-profit, KeSPA was created with the intent to further the appeal of eSports and as a result generate more viewers for the constituent's advertising.
3) The situation with regards to working conditions and expectations has got consistantly worse over time, it's not a static thing and yes, later players probably do know what they're getting into, that said the vast majority are under the age of 17 and in the pursuit of what the top players achieve people make many bad/rash decisions under the pretense that they're not like the other guys who end up as B-teamers for years.
4) Once players have been in the system to the point where they might have retired, they've already given up very large portions of their education and realistically they don't have a lot of options outside of eSports.
5) The 100k payout is not the attraction for players to switch unless they're really really naive, however the attraction of a league and tournament structure that has that sort of prizepool is, because it means teams and sponsors that can financially support a player in a stable manner. Nearly all the winners of OSLs and MSLs and now the GSL give nearly all the winnings to their parents or their team anyway, these are kids who don't want a whole lot of stuff other than to play games all day, they're not looking to get a Benz.
I hope that helps clear everything up.
you are incorrect in this point. these kids are switching over due to the new scene and hoping to place in the money in the monthly tournaments of GSL. the idea of giving money to their parents... it is more the cultural factor. usually families stick and live together past the point of adults... especially with prices in seoul for housing. (you can spend a couple milllion to buy a 3 br apartment/condo). they aren't looking to buy a benz, but they are looking forward to easier lifestyle with more spending money. also, they won't give it to their team. the scene is not made up of selfless people who are trying to build up an industry from the ground up (like xellos and go when they had no sponsors). no, the money will be pocketed by players and families and some of it will be spent to buy a good meal for the rest of the team who helped them practice....
On October 13 2010 04:38 konadora wrote: ogn will still do proleague? THANK GOD.
If there even is a Proleague. MBC unable to broadcast, OGN only on weekends...?
On October 13 2010 04:41 Shizuru~ wrote: my my, doesn't these BW fanboys that clings on to their dying sport sounds exactly like religious fanatics/evangelist?
My, my, don't these anti-BW people sound like idiotic newfags? I enjoy both Brood War and Starcraft 2, but if the success of Starcraft 2 depends on the death of the much better, much more fun to watch BW, then fuck SC2.
On October 13 2010 04:45 TOloseGT wrote: This is awesome news for SC2.
I'm sincerely sorry for BW fans if these rumors are true though. Hopefully in time you'll enjoy watching SC2.
i really have to quote this. its exactly what i think and im sure nearly every single sc2 player is thinking that way.
its really sad that bw seems to be dying out. i watched it for years. day for day i came home and instantly watched every new vod in baezzis channel. so many happy hours i have spent with bw.
but for esports to grow we really need sc2. you can only get new players and more public attention if you got something new. sadly, bw was becoming slightly smaller from year to year (even though they got korean air as a sponsor, just watch at the finals crowds). of course, bw would live and stay big for at least 3-5 years. but esports should be bigger.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions. My point is just that it's unlikely that these events will have any bearing on the success of SC2. If it is good enough to be successful, it would probably take off anyway. If not, it won't. Because in the end, no amount of legal bullshit or money pumping can change whether or not people like to go watch the game.
On October 13 2010 04:41 Shizuru~ wrote: my my, doesn't these BW fanboys that clings on to their dying sport sounds exactly like religious fanatics/evangelist?
insightful OP i'd say, this truly is a time of great disturbance yes? so... maybe Rekrul would be kind enough to share more inside stories perhaps...
...It's people like you that are the reason why I'm so annoyed.
Sure, it's all great and all that SC2 is present but what I want is to have BW also alive at the very least to die naturally rather than being forced to halt abruptly like Blizzard/Gretech are trying to do.
Then, people like you come in, pouring salt in other people's wounds, labeling everyone who believes in BW as "Fanboys and religious fanatics," and then go about touting SC2 like a religion themselves.
On October 13 2010 04:52 imperator-xy wrote:but for esports to grow we really need sc2. you can only get new players and more public attention if you got something new. sadly, bw was becoming slightly smaller from year to year (even though they got korean air as a sponsor, just watch at the finals crowds). of course, bw would live and stay big for at least 3-5 years. but esports should be bigger.
Your 'something new' will just be old and outdated in another 2 years. This is a horrible argument.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
EDIT: They saw how popular SC2 was getting, they jumped on it. Nothing was forced.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
Ummmm... did you read the OP/have you been paying attention to the scene at all? I don't even know how to respond to this, lol
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
Ummmm... did you read the OP? I don't even know how to respond to this, lol
Wanna point out where they put "so much effort" into bullying BW? Nothing implies anything of the sort. If you think the money they're giving a certain player is a lot of money, you obviously don't understand how the world works.
On October 13 2010 01:30 sihyunie wrote: KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon IP and public property is important, but... People don't know the biggest hurdle in the negotiations and are just arguing with themselves. I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
Seems like the majority of TL, myself included, could take note from this. I'm already extremely upset from this statement.
Not surprised. Negative emotions are usually the biggest hurdle in negotiations that end up like this one. I'm sure there's plenty of agreements that they could've done already that would be beneficial for both sides but each side wants to make it look like their side won and the other lost.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
EDIT: They saw how popular SC2 was getting, they jumped on it. Nothing was forced.
With all due respect, Blizzard did to do a relentless advertising campaign, had game publishers make only positive reviews about SC2 (no negative reviews of the game), and instigated an IP argument only after SC2 was released to crush BW.
I don't know about you, but there were a lot of strong-arm tactics involved in trying to get SC2 to supplant BW.
EDIT: But this is all besides the point, we'll all have differing opinions regarding the issue. For me, this is sad news, and that's basically all I have to say about the OP. :[
On October 13 2010 04:52 imperator-xy wrote:but for esports to grow we really need sc2. you can only get new players and more public attention if you got something new. sadly, bw was becoming slightly smaller from year to year (even though they got korean air as a sponsor, just watch at the finals crowds). of course, bw would live and stay big for at least 3-5 years. but esports should be bigger.
Your 'something new' will just be old and outdated in another 2 years. This is a horrible argument.
in 2 years heart of the swarm will just be released. but you didnt get my point. its not about getting something new each year (like call of duty), you just need something new if you reached a point of stagnation. bw wouldnt grow in korea and it could never combine foreign and korean esports. sc2 at least has the chance to do that.
This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
Ummmm... did you read the OP? I don't even know how to respond to this, lol
Wanna point out where they put "so much effort" into bullying BW? Nothing implies anything of the sort. If you think the money they're giving a certain player is a lot of money, you obviously don't understand how the world works.
Again, I want to ask you if you've been paying attention at all. Does "KeSPA-Gretech negotiations" ring a bell? To summarize, Blizzard came in only after SC2 had been released and started demanding IP rights.
On October 13 2010 01:58 konadora wrote: i feel like marching in to blizzard's headquarters right now and grab Mike by the throat, god. fuck this shit.
And tell him what? That conditions on teams were so bad that the moment anyone had an option they immediately left? That coaches abused players to the point where even korean work ethic denied any further playing?
The methodology in which this is handled is wrong, by both sides especially KeSPA but above all we need to think of the players whom in the BW scene were pretty much abused and drained.
To simply put it, Starcraft 2 is the new thing and more people play it. Simple as that. The majority rules last time I checked. Even if SC2 was this big pile of garbage that you seem to think it is, there are plenty of people that beg to differ.
Don't turn this into another CS 1.6 > Source type of argument. It'll achieve nothing.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote:If SC2 needs this much effort and bullying to get off the ground, then it's hardly good news for you.
Lol, get off your high horse.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
I was referring to your flawed assumption that SC2 somehow "bullied" BW into submission.
WTH are you talking about "this much effort". The fans wanted those tournaments and they went out to create them. Not so much effort as it is WHAT THE FANS WANT.
Ummmm... did you read the OP? I don't even know how to respond to this, lol
Wanna point out where they put "so much effort" into bullying BW? Nothing implies anything of the sort. If you think the money they're giving a certain player is a lot of money, you obviously don't understand how the world works.
Again, I want to ask you if you've been paying attention at all. Does "KeSPA-Gretech negotiations" ring a bell? To summarize, Blizzard came in only after SC2 had been released and started demanding IP rights.
You mean the botched negotiations that we have little reliable information on except for hearsay? I make my judgments on fact.
I'm done talking to you extremist fans. I didn't have any ill-intent while posting my original response, yet you guys are so warped by your hate that you find every little thing to jump at. I still stand by my post that I seriously hope you guys learn to enjoy SC2 in the future, or find a greener pasture on the other side.
Don't really want Sparkyz to merge, but I guess it's for the best. The funny thing is even with these two teams merging they still won't have a good Zerg player, just decent ones because Effort is gone. It's Hogil vs Orion/Hydra.
I kind of wish you guys would stop getting trolled. When someone says 'bahaha now BW can finally die SC2 forever' or something yeah it's annoying, but when you start freaking out and then being aggressive towards other people who are seriously discussing it kind of makes people back away slowly from BW even more. Countertrolling / overreacting achieves nothing.
On October 13 2010 05:08 BlackMagister wrote: Don't really want Sparkyz to merge, but I guess it's for the best. The funny thing is even with these two teams merging they still won't have a good Zerg player, just decent ones because Effort is gone. It's Hogil vs Orion/Hydra.
Well Hite really didn't have that big of a chance ever since most of the other players were caught in that major scandal so I think it would have been best, especially with Leta having to play lone ranger. At least he'd get support from Movie/SkyHigh.
Interesting rumors, while I love sc2 and didn't play BW anywhere seriously, I wouldn't want one to succeed if one were to dissapear. Why can't we have both ~_~
On October 13 2010 05:03 Ramiel wrote: This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
HOW IS IT BAD FOR E-SPORTS?
They havent killed shit off. Everyone playing SC2 is playing it because they like to fucking play it. It took 12 years for BW to finally end.
And btw "sad way to see e-sports go? LOL What the hell are you talking about? BW was NEVER crowned "king of esports".
On October 13 2010 05:07 TOloseGT wrote: I'm done talking to you extremist fans. I didn't have any ill-intent while posting my original response, yet you guys are so warped by your hate that you find every little thing to jump at. I still stand by my post that I seriously hope you guys learn to enjoy SC2 in the future, or find a greener pasture on the other side.
ROFL
"Extremist fans"?
Aside from the fact that you're completely ignoring a post I made that was specifically addressed at you to address that point, the notion of an "extremist fan" of BW is hilarious.
KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon IP and public property is important, but... People don't know the biggest hurdle in the negotiations and are just arguing with themselves. I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
On October 13 2010 05:08 BlackMagister wrote: Don't really want Sparkyz to merge, but I guess it's for the best. The funny thing is even with these two teams merging they still won't have a good Zerg player, just decent ones because Effort is gone. It's Hogil vs Orion/Hydra.
Well Hite really didn't have that big of a chance ever since most of the other players were caught in that major scandal so I think it would have been best, especially with Leta having to play lone ranger. At least he'd get support from Movie/SkyHigh.
It was fun to watch Sparkyz because they were underdogs. If they did start doing well it would because they got new talent or improved, but now if they get better it's because they merged two teams together. Besides that I like Sparkyz for being an underdog team I liked them for having emotion which it's the stereotype that CJ does not, with the "CJ face -_-" comments. Watching CJ's games and Leta's face whenever he wins reinforces this belief. Leta smiles when he wins!
ALSO I hate one of the CJ fan girls that does the train whistle cheer.
Whenever things were tough in my life I would come home watch some pro scbw and EVERYTHING would be okay. Tried using SC2 for this and its not the same. I am so sad at this.
And this is a shocking revelation to some of you guys that money makes the world go round. Really get used to it. This doesn't shock me in the ONE bit. Because, at the center of almost everything in this world is money.
On October 13 2010 04:38 sihyunie wrote: KT Rolster coach Lee Ji Hoon I'm not allowed to disclose any information, but when you find out... you will probably be extremely upset... Man...
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
On October 13 2010 01:58 konadora wrote: i feel like marching in to blizzard's headquarters right now and grab Mike by the throat, god. fuck this shit.
And tell him what? That conditions on teams were so bad that the moment anyone had an option they immediately left? That coaches abused players to the point where even korean work ethic denied any further playing?
The methodology in which this is handled is wrong, by both sides especially KeSPA but above all we need to think of the players whom in the BW scene were pretty much abused and drained.
Another person who joined in 2010 making shit up. Conditions so bad lol. Did you see Hyungjoon becomes a progamer?
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
I really don't see how people can like SC2 without liking BW at all, or wishes people to just hop over and kill BW.
I'll admit it, I joined TL because of SC2. I never really followed BW at all, I've just heard about it being extremely crazy in Korea and well, I too out of ignorance thought it was absurd the amount of exposure it gets there.
Fast-forward to now, man I love watching BW soo much, I wish I found out how great it was sooner. It's just like those stupid hate threads in sc2 / bw forums, why is it so hard for people to just play what they want and/or enjoy both games and hope they succeed?
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
It speaks volumes when the man that built SCBW has already left for SC2. I think people give too much credit to Blizzard for peeling apart the BW scene, when its very core is crumbling from the inside.
To clarify, the way BW has evolved over the years into a fiercely competitive, cutthroat and unforgiving sport might have facilitated its rapid collapse.
On October 13 2010 05:03 Ramiel wrote: This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
HOW IS IT BAD FOR E-SPORTS?
They havent killed shit off. Everyone playing SC2 is playing it because they like to fucking play it. It took 12 years for BW to finally end.
And btw "sad way to see e-sports go? LOL What the hell are you talking about? BW was NEVER crowned "king of esports".
You need to calm down. BW right now is still the most advanced esport in terms of sponsorship, leagues etc. Please check out the history on the database here on TL or liquipedia and compare it to any other game.
I started following BW in 2007 and I really like SC2. I enjoy watching both and I really wish a healthy SC2 and BW scene could coexist.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
Who's trying to 'deny the new'? We just enjoy and prefer BW. It's other people who seem to have some problem with that.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
Ummm...
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
On October 13 2010 04:48 matjlav wrote: I've already explained that I won't be that upset if SC2 turns out better than BW and has a thriving proscene, even if BW dies in that process. What's upsetting is that BW may be forced out by Blizzard's bullshit.
Learn to read instead of making stupid assumptions.
On October 13 2010 05:07 TOloseGT wrote: I'm done talking to you extremist fans.
If that isn't an example of being thick-skulled, I don't know what is...
Apologies for going off-topic, but it's really frustrating that my arguments and arguments of other BW fans keep getting completely mischaracterized. I feel like I have to say something.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
oh. my. GOD.
why is it that you guys cant see our points? what we're angry is NOT about sc2 replacing bw as "the better esports game", but about how us BW fans arent given an opportunity to stick to what we like. as people mentioned in the other thread, if BW died a natural death then i wouldnt give that much a thought either, but here, blizzard is strangling the BW scene to death. THAT is what i am so pissed about.
and although i still think sc2 isnt a good a game as BW, i also believe given time, it too can develop into a good game.
I bet Blizzard held BoxeR up to a gun point and told him flat that if he didnt play SC2 they would kill his family, starting with his mother being decapitated right in front of him.
Right? Becuase, whether you know it or not that is how many of you sound RIGHT NOW, absolutely crazy, gone from reality that all this is some sort of huge conspiracy and how Blizzard has a entire team of people with 200 million dollars and only mission is to "Kill Brood War Nao!"?
The reality of the situation is that BW popularity has been wanning and going south the last couple of years, the "golden days" are over, and have been over. Ratings and viewership for BW show this.
Does this mean that you have to play Starcraft 2? Hell no, you dont even need to touch it with a 10 foot pole, but you need to lay of the bashing becuase alot of people on this very site, alot of people who were once your idols and heroes made the transition becuase they liked the game. They didnt switch to Warcraft 3, but they did for SC2, that says that perhaps SC2 dosent exactly "suck!" too much.
Lay off the SC2 vs BW, because you need someone or something to blame, had SC2 not existed BW would be in a similar if not the same situation it is now.
SC2 is a place, after only 2 months where Brood War and Warcraft 3 could only dream off, so many people are interested in it, so many tournaments, streams and players have flocked to it, it is a event, a occassion, you can parcipate if you want, it dosent mean you dont love Brood War, it dosent mean jack shit, it just means that, at this point in time you would like to enjoy this new kid on the block and give it a honest chance.
Many of your peers, heroes and former legends have done just that and ended up enjoying a good game. If you hold the opinion that SC2 killed your favorite game then you will never enjoy it, no matter how good it becomes with expansions (just like BW did) and the only one losing is you.
I love Brood War, but this time belongs to Starcraft 2
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
the fact remains that E-Sports can only grow so much with BW, have you ever seen so much attention been put to a single game for non-koreans demographics? the only time that korea has even made an effort to expand E-Sports beyond its borders is the GomTV classics tournament, we all know how that ended up because of a certain organisations selfish act?
SC2 is a great way to unite all sort gamers under one "roof" and be driven as the spear point of E-Sports development GLOBALLY, an unfortunate consequence that the old must make way for the new, but this is the chance for E-Sports to expand beyond korea.
i understand the pains that some might have with the changes, i myself have had great time and memories with the BW scene, but nothing last forever, changes is a part of life that we all must learn to adapt and accept, and BW have to brought down to encourage further development of E-Sports. it is painful i know, you guys should come to terms with reality, that there's nothing any of us here can do stop the changes, in the long run it will be for the greater good. so bear with it please.
On October 13 2010 05:03 Ramiel wrote: This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
HOW IS IT BAD FOR E-SPORTS?
They havent killed shit off. Everyone playing SC2 is playing it because they like to fucking play it. It took 12 years for BW to finally end.
And btw "sad way to see e-sports go? LOL What the hell are you talking about? BW was NEVER crowned "king of esports".
You need to calm down. BW right now is still the most advanced esport in terms of sponsorship, leagues etc. Please check out the history on the database here on TL or liquipedia and compare it to any other game.
I started following BW in 2007 and I really like SC2. I enjoy watching both and I really wish a healthy SC2 and BW scene could coexist.
Most advanced in the way of an e sport game? No its not. Look at Halo 3 or CS teams. Just because there was a huge fallowing in Korea doesn't mean that the rest of the world fallowed. Perhaps before you spout off again and tell me to check liquipedia, inform yourself about what is going on.
Does this mean that CJ now owns shares in both Gretech and OGN? If CJ succeeded in taking control over Kespa this would mean all parties in the rights dispute would be effectively the same company.
edit: Ah, someone else commented on this a few pages ago
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
the fact remains that E-Sports can only grow so much with BW, have you ever seen so much attention been put to a single game for non-koreans demographics? the only time that korea has even made an effort to expand E-Sports beyond its borders is the GomTV classics tournament, we all know how that ended up because of a certain organisations selfish act?
SC2 is a great way to unite all sort gamers under one "roof" and be driven as the spear point of E-Sports development GLOBALLY, an unfortunate consequence that the old must make way for the new, but this is the chance for E-Sports to expand beyond korea.
i understand the pains that some might have with the changes, i myself have had great time and memories with the BW scene, but nothing last forever, changes is a part of life that we all must learn to adapt and accept, and BW have to brought down to encourage further development of E-Sports. it is painful i know, you guys should come to terms with reality, that there's nothing any of us here can do stop the changes, in the long run it will be for the greater good. so bear with it please.
You just don't want me to have a keyboard anymore, do you?
What does any of this have to do with the fact that Blizzard is forcefully smothering the BW scene?
also: point of order, OSL Finals were just in Shanghai.
On October 13 2010 05:26 Jyvblamo wrote: It speaks volumes when the man that built SCBW has already left for SC2. I think people give too much credit to Blizzard for peeling apart the BW scene, when its very core is crumbling from the inside.
To clarify, the way BW has evolved over the years into a fiercely competitive, cutthroat and unforgiving sport might have facilitated its rapid collapse.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
oh. my. GOD.
why is it that you guys cant see our points? what we're angry is NOT about sc2 replacing bw as "the better esports game", but about how us BW fans arent given an opportunity to stick to what we like. as people mentioned in the other thread, if BW died a natural death then i wouldnt give that much a thought either, but here, blizzard is strangling the BW scene to death. THAT is what i am so pissed about.
and although i still think sc2 isnt a good a game as BW, i also believe given time, it too can develop into a good game.
How can you say Blizzard have something to do with BW going down when from all the rumors in the OP we all can see that some Korean corporation is just trying to switch from BW to SC2?
All this hate between bw and sc2 fans is absolutely pointless and useless. The "bad guys" are not SC2 fans but corporations that want more money.
Players are just a bunch of kids (if you are in your late teens and early 20s you are a kid ) that want to make a living and you can't want them to stick to losing cause because you like that cause.
In the end there is only one thing that sums it up: Money talks...
On October 13 2010 05:03 Ramiel wrote: This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
HOW IS IT BAD FOR E-SPORTS?
They havent killed shit off. Everyone playing SC2 is playing it because they like to fucking play it. It took 12 years for BW to finally end.
And btw "sad way to see e-sports go? LOL What the hell are you talking about? BW was NEVER crowned "king of esports".
You need to calm down. BW right now is still the most advanced esport in terms of sponsorship, leagues etc. Please check out the history on the database here on TL or liquipedia and compare it to any other game.
I started following BW in 2007 and I really like SC2. I enjoy watching both and I really wish a healthy SC2 and BW scene could coexist.
Most advanced in the way of an e sport game? No its not. Look at Halo 3 or CS teams. Just because there was a huge fallowing in Korea doesn't mean that the rest of the world fallowed. Perhaps before you spout off again and tell me to check liquipedia, inform yourself about what is going on.
Did you just say Halo 3 is more developed as an e-sport over bw? You said fallowed, I can't take you serious at all.
On October 13 2010 05:03 Ramiel wrote: This is bad news for all of e-sports. If this is the attitude that blizzard is showing with it's games, killing them off one by one- then what is going to happen when the other expansions come out? The balance is going to be absolutely horrid, yet everyone will switch. What happens when sc3 comes out? or wc4? or any other blizz title? doing this will never make video games a sport. Killing of games before they even reach a prime. All this is doing is making more money.
What a sad way to see e-sports go.... with thunderous applause
HOW IS IT BAD FOR E-SPORTS?
They havent killed shit off. Everyone playing SC2 is playing it because they like to fucking play it. It took 12 years for BW to finally end.
And btw "sad way to see e-sports go? LOL What the hell are you talking about? BW was NEVER crowned "king of esports".
You need to calm down. BW right now is still the most advanced esport in terms of sponsorship, leagues etc. Please check out the history on the database here on TL or liquipedia and compare it to any other game.
I started following BW in 2007 and I really like SC2. I enjoy watching both and I really wish a healthy SC2 and BW scene could coexist.
Most advanced in the way of an e sport game? No its not. Look at Halo 3 or CS teams. Just because there was a huge fallowing in Korea doesn't mean that the rest of the world fallowed. Perhaps before you spout off again and tell me to check liquipedia, inform yourself about what is going on.
Yeah remember when 100,000 people went to watch a Halo 3 or CS final.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
oh. my. GOD.
why is it that you guys cant see our points? what we're angry is NOT about sc2 replacing bw as "the better esports game", but about how us BW fans arent given an opportunity to stick to what we like. as people mentioned in the other thread, if BW died a natural death then i wouldnt give that much a thought either, but here, blizzard is strangling the BW scene to death. THAT is what i am so pissed about.
and although i still think sc2 isnt a good a game as BW, i also believe given time, it too can develop into a good game.
How can you say Blizzard have something to do with BW going down when from all the rumors in the OP we all can see that some Korean corporation is just trying to switch from BW to SC2?
All this hate between bw and sc2 fans is absolutely pointless and useless. The "bad guys" are not SC2 fans but corporations that want more money.
Players are just a bunch of kids (if you are in your late teens and early 20s you are a kid ) that want to make a living and you can't want them to stick to losing cause because you like that cause.
In the end there is only one thing that sums it up: Money talks...
All of this is pretty much the result of Blizzard's legal shit, though. If it weren't for that, there's no way that BW scene would be crumbling like this. As for your money argument, I'll direct you to a post by PoP:
On October 13 2010 03:18 Kenny wrote: This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
Thing is, the fans should decide this, not the money.
(Korean) BW isn't dying because the korean fans want to watch SC2 all of a sudden. There were TONS of people showing up at every single live event in Korea last year. They still love the game and many foreigners still do, too. And it didn't become that way because whatever companies threw huge amounts of money and proclame their game the new greatest e-sport, it became that way because the game was loved by the players and by the fans and has been so for 10 years full of awesome stuff .
TLDR: Money should go where the fans want to go, not the other way around. The way things seem to be occuring seems everything but natural, and that's really really sad.
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
the fact remains that E-Sports can only grow so much with BW, have you ever seen so much attention been put to a single game for non-koreans demographics? the only time that korea has even made an effort to expand E-Sports beyond its borders is the GomTV classics tournament, we all know how that ended up because of a certain organisations selfish act?
SC2 is a great way to unite all sort gamers under one "roof" and be driven as the spear point of E-Sports development GLOBALLY, an unfortunate consequence that the old must make way for the new, but this is the chance for E-Sports to expand beyond korea.
i understand the pains that some might have with the changes, i myself have had great time and memories with the BW scene, but nothing last forever, changes is a part of life that we all must learn to adapt and accept, and BW have to brought down to encourage further development of E-Sports. it is painful i know, you guys should come to terms with reality, that there's nothing any of us here can do stop the changes, in the long run it will be for the greater good. so bear with it please.
Ah yes Blizzards wonderful vision for global eSports. A single tournament for 64 people solely based in Seoul, region locked Battle.net, no LAN. I'm really enjoying this 'development' of eSports.
Many aspects of BW are dead already. The proscene is pretty much nonexistent outside of Korea (although many foreign fans still enjoy the proscene in Korea). With old players leaving and no new players arriving to the BW scene (not to mention all the coaches leaving), it's only a matter of time until professional BW as we know it comes to an end.
I don't think I'll miss it, TBH. They were good times, but my interest in BW dried up with the beta and later on the release of SC2. I'm still pissed off about certain aspects of SC2 (no LAN, no cross-realm play, etc)... but it's a better, more entertaining game, IMO.
Thank you, Starcraft: Brood Wars, for giving me good times and for giving us TeamLiquid.
<i>Ah yes Blizzards wonderful vision for global eSports. A single tournament for 64 people solely based in Seoul, region locked Battle.net, no LAN. I'm really enjoying this 'development' of eSports.</i>
Yea we just had one in New York and this weekend some tournament at MLG DC too, and that huge tournament in Europe we had a month ago in Germany
On October 13 2010 05:44 Raevin wrote: <i>Ah yes Blizzards wonderful vision for global eSports. A single tournament for 64 people solely based in Seoul, region locked Battle.net, no LAN. I'm really enjoying this 'development' of eSports.</i>
Yea we just had one in New York and this weekend some tournament at MLG DC too, and that huge tournament in Europe we had a month ago in Germany
Pff "Global" esports my ass right?
How is that united globally with the best players in the world together? Like BW it's going to end up completely split again with all non-Koreans having their own tournaments elsewhere because they can't compete. Then guess which countries scene will be left active in a few years once Western interest in the game dies down...
On October 13 2010 05:30 Jyvblamo wrote: To be fair, it's kind of shameful how hostile some of the BW veterans are to 'SC2 fans'.
oh my god, if you guys keep posting shit like this, i'm going to bang my head against the keyboard.
at this point, there are 3 options:
1) you are ignoring every post in this thread 2) you are fucking with me 3) you are just that insistent on sticking with your stereotypes of BW fans
which one is it? Let me know.
I'm about as angry as anyone else about the state of the BW scene and I've been following it since 2006 and I've been very emotionally committed to my favourite players/teams. But talking down to SC2 fans as if they're the enemy makes absolutely no sense to me.
[Not that I'm saying there aren't a lot of assclowns in this thread shitting it up with posts like "give it up Bw is dead"...]
On October 13 2010 05:16 konadora wrote: i give up trying to explain us BW fans' stand because some people are just too thick-skulled and i'd probably get banned.
With all due respect, sir, to me, an opinonless observer (who loves SC but knows that it's going to die soon anyway, every major evolution starts with a collapse of the old), you are the one being thick-skulled, trying to keep BW alive with your comments on these forums. The logic behind that, I do not understand. There are always people who deny the new, the thing that will become norm, and I see you exactly as that, trying to pull any argument to feel good about winning an internet argument. The paraolympics picture comes to my mind.
oh. my. GOD.
why is it that you guys cant see our points? what we're angry is NOT about sc2 replacing bw as "the better esports game", but about how us BW fans arent given an opportunity to stick to what we like. as people mentioned in the other thread, if BW died a natural death then i wouldnt give that much a thought either, but here, blizzard is strangling the BW scene to death. THAT is what i am so pissed about.
and although i still think sc2 isnt a good a game as BW, i also believe given time, it too can develop into a good game.
How can you say Blizzard have something to do with BW going down when from all the rumors in the OP we all can see that some Korean corporation is just trying to switch from BW to SC2?
All this hate between bw and sc2 fans is absolutely pointless and useless. The "bad guys" are not SC2 fans but corporations that want more money.
Players are just a bunch of kids (if you are in your late teens and early 20s you are a kid ) that want to make a living and you can't want them to stick to losing cause because you like that cause.
In the end there is only one thing that sums it up: Money talks...
All of this is pretty much the result of Blizzard's legal shit, though. If it weren't for that, there's no way that BW scene would be crumbling like this. As for your money argument, I'll direct you to a post by PoP:
On October 13 2010 03:18 Kenny wrote: This. Couldn't have said it better myself. It is natural as humans to be upset with change, but this too can grow into a wonderful and competitive game that we all come to love. Sure BW was amazing and will always be in our eyes, but its been 10 years guys...time to move on.
Thing is, the fans should decide this, not the money.
(Korean) BW isn't dying because the korean fans want to watch SC2 all of a sudden. There were TONS of people showing up at every single live event in Korea last year. They still love the game and many foreigners still do, too. And it didn't become that way because whatever companies threw huge amounts of money and proclame their game the new greatest e-sport, it became that way because the game was loved by the players and by the fans and has been so for 10 years full of awesome stuff .
TLDR: Money should go where the fans want to go, not the other way around. The way things seem to be occuring seems everything but natural, and that's really really sad.
Fans always go where the money are. This is the natural way not the other way. If there are money there are fancy shows and people that are good at what they do and this lead the fans to the given sport. If you dan't belive me just check the most hyped sports and you will se it.
And about Blizzard claims, well all that IP rights stuff came way after KeSPA started to charge for games to be broadcasted so again it seem that my point stands
Its really sad to watch BW scene dies but nothing is forever.
On October 13 2010 05:30 Jyvblamo wrote: To be fair, it's kind of shameful how hostile some of the BW veterans are to 'SC2 fans'.
oh my god, if you guys keep posting shit like this, i'm going to bang my head against the keyboard.
at this point, there are 3 options:
1) you are ignoring every post in this thread 2) you are fucking with me 3) you are just that insistent on sticking with your stereotypes of BW fans
which one is it? Let me know.
I'm about as angry as anyone else about the state of the BW scene and I've been following it since 2006 and I've been very emotionally committed to my favourite players/teams. But talking down to SC2 fans as if they're the enemy makes absolutely no sense to me.
I agree. I was assuming that you were talking about me and konadora. If you weren't, I'm sorry. If you were, then my point stands.
why is it that you guys cant see our points? what we're angry is NOT about sc2 replacing bw as "the better esports game", but about how us BW fans arent given an opportunity to stick to what we like. as people mentioned in the other thread, if BW died a natural death then i wouldnt give that much a thought either, but here, blizzard is strangling the BW scene to death. THAT is what i am so pissed about.
Exactly. Gretech/Blizzard is forcing SC1 to shut down, because they feel that SC2 can't compete otherwise. This scenarios is like the swedish football/soccer association forcing the english, spanish and italian leagues to shut down, because they can't compete otherwise. It's just ridiculous that the SC1 scene isn't in control of their own leagues, and I really hope that they go to court with this, so they can release themselves from their obligations towards Blizzard once and for all.
Everybody who is a fan of SC1 or are working in the scene wants it to continue as before, so what's the problem?
SC2 can have their scene if they want. I don't care. Let ppl watch/play the game of their choice, and we'll all be happy.
So this is the real e-sport huh ? I really hope that e-sport grows in USA or Europe as big as it is in Korea... I'm sure that this kind of knowledge will be very usefull for upcoming e-sport associations around the world.
This are the kinds of mistakes that can't be done... for the sake of the customers & players.
Like i said, everyone would be happy if the current proteams had SC2 divisions and an SC2 proleague and starleagues run alongside it... but we got a bunch of amateurs like Gretech given total rights for the game and the scene currently fucking split in 2 instead. This kind of shit is what is keeping it from being a considered a real sport, when a developer or anyone can just decide on a whim they want their new game to replace old. There's players, fans and sponsors still there and its ridiculous for it to end up like this.
On October 13 2010 03:53 [White]NaDa wrote: BW is/was still growing, its potential was unlimited, how can you say that you want it to go to the next level when there is no set level to overcome
human ignorance is amazing some times
to this quote:
On October 13 2010 05:34 Raevin wrote: The reality of the situation is that BW popularity has been wanning and going south the last couple of years, the "golden days" are over, and have been over. Ratings and viewership for BW show this.
Funny to see how people hate 'both sides' with this phenomenon. It's like, someone shits and throws it at you. You didn't do anything wrong but everyone will try not to get close to you. I don't see why people have to point their fingers on each, or everyone and say things are getting dirty. (and I say this because I think the only one to blame is KeSPA atm)
On the other hand, there is a quote which isn't translated - Korean culture minister saying "How dare you, you are just a CEO of a company" to Mike Mohaim.(lawl) Korean government is trying to protect KeSPA because it's grouped up with all the big firms, and one more thing which makes it even more interesting is that Blizzard brought a representative from American Embassy on the meeting where Korean government's inspection of the administration asked Blizzard about the copyright problem, which made the situation look far more serious.
Honestly, even before all this god damn quarrel, BW scene was dying anyways. :/ Audience rating was getting lower every season, and less people coming to the finals. Hell, even MBC's Tekken crash tournament had higher audience rating than MSL.
On October 13 2010 03:53 [White]NaDa wrote: BW is/was still growing, its potential was unlimited, how can you say that you want it to go to the next level when there is no set level to overcome
On October 13 2010 05:34 Raevin wrote: The reality of the situation is that BW popularity has been wanning and going south the last couple of years, the "golden days" are over, and have been over. Ratings and viewership for BW show this.
ROFL.
Its true, the popularity of the game has been going down, even when SC2 Beta was long to see release
Brood War achieved its golden age, that age was when Nada, Boxer, Intotherain, Garimto etc were playing, thats when interest for this game was at its peak.
SC2 will hit its own peak and will slowly evaporate, it happens to every game.
To think that BW would reach those heights again or even beyond is downright deluded thinking
Just wait, when SC2 has long been forgotten and blizzard and activision are in ashes, SC1 will once again be unearthed.
Future generations thousands of years from now will rediscover the gift that is Starcraft: Brood War. They will be awed by the simple, archaic interface and as they puzzle over how to play the game it will be inevitable that that video of strange graphical representations with howling, alien language shouting " PLAGUUUU" or "REAVAH REAVAH REAVAH" will be transcoded and understood.
On October 13 2010 05:44 Zato-1 wrote: Many aspects of BW are dead already. The proscene is pretty much nonexistent outside of Korea (although many foreign fans still enjoy the proscene in Korea). With old players leaving and no new players arriving to the BW scene (not to mention all the coaches leaving), it's only a matter of time until professional BW as we know it comes to an end.
What's your point exactly? You're pretty much stating the obvious here. The real question is about the reason why, and the way these things happened.
On October 13 2010 06:07 Crissaegrim wrote: Just wait, when SC2 has long been forgotten and blizzard and activision are in ashes, SC1 will once again be unearthed.
Future generations thousands of years from now will rediscover the gift that is Starcraft: Brood War. They will be awed by the simple, archaic interface and as they puzzle over how to play the game it will be inevitable that that video of strange graphical representations with howling, alien language shouting " PLAGUUUU" or "REAVAH REAVAH REAVAH" will be transcoded and understood.
Brood War is the future. Not the present.
Activision will never be in ashes, not with Bobby Kotick at the helm. That would imply it died in a blaze of glory; if anything, Kotick would drive all the different brands to the ground in a very un-spectacular way.
On October 13 2010 06:12 PoP wrote: What's your point exactly? You're pretty much stating the obvious here. The real question is about the reason why, and the way these things happened.
I suppose I am stating the obvious. It's my own solemn epitaph for the game's proscene. It may not be dead quite yet, but it is dead to me.
Just wait, when SC2 has long been forgotten and blizzard and activision are in ashes, SC1 will once again be unearthed.
That is wishfull thinking, at best SC1 will be at where War3 is at now, only popular underground
How many new players do you think BW can attract nowadays, how many new people do you think are going to start playing on ICCUP?
The BW has, for the past few years been a locked hardcore enviourment, only semi exposed in Korea, the rest of the world did not even knew it existed.
SC2 has a chance to expand on that and become a game that dosent just take a throne as king of Korea esport but as king of esport around the world.
Boxer, Nada, July and even Jaedong has outright said that SC2 can reach hights BW never did.
People will never stop loving Starcraft, just like they havent stopped loving Super Mario Brothers or Rocky or Back to the Future, but the world moves forward and unless you move with it, you are left behind
On October 13 2010 05:57 StarcraftMan wrote: Compare the following quote:
On October 13 2010 03:53 [White]NaDa wrote: BW is/was still growing, its potential was unlimited, how can you say that you want it to go to the next level when there is no set level to overcome
human ignorance is amazing some times
to this quote:
On October 13 2010 05:34 Raevin wrote: The reality of the situation is that BW popularity has been wanning and going south the last couple of years, the "golden days" are over, and have been over. Ratings and viewership for BW show this.
ROFL.
Its true, the popularity of the game has been going down, even when SC2 Beta was long to see release
Brood War achieved its golden age, that age was when Nada, Boxer, Intotherain, Garimto etc were playing, thats when interest for this game was at its peak.
SC2 will hit its own peak and will slowly evaporate, it happens to every game.
To think that BW would reach those heights again or even beyond is downright deluded thinking
Yeah, I actually agree with you Raevin. [White]Nada talks about people being ignorant, but it is [White]Nada that appears to be ignorant.
eSports and ESPECIALLY SC2 are never going to be mainstream popular around the world like you are suggesting. Infact people familar with the scene in Korea on these forums say its unlikely for a repeat of the BW scene either at its peak and it was likely just a big one-off thing thanks to the big rise of internet access in Korea and gaming in general there. That it was a perfect storm unlikely to be repeated, and just the fact Boxer is playing a new game isn't going to somehow cause the same craze this time around.
On October 13 2010 05:48 kinray wrote: Fans always go where the money are. This is the natural way not the other way. If there are money there are fancy shows and people that are good at what they do and this lead the fans to the given sport. If you dan't belive me just check the most hyped sports and you will se it.
It actually does work both ways, but no one will ever throw money at something people are not really interested in. Fans are the real trigger for sponsors and just everyone who's gonna invest really.
It's all a huge bet. If for some reason SC2 starts dying out in 2 years because fans lose interest, then that bet will have been lost. Hence how unnatural and risky it is to force anything on customers when the product is supposed to be be successful on the long run.
On October 13 2010 06:14 Raevin wrote: Boxer, Nada, July and even Jaedong has outright said that SC2 can reach hights BW never did.
I don't think they've said anything more than "this game offers many new gameplay options", which is obviously true especially coming from progamers who thought about strategies for so many years.
eSports and ESPECIALLY SC2 are never going to be mainstream popular around the world like you are suggesting. Infact people familar with the scene in Korea on these forums say its unlikely for a repeat of the BW scene either at its peak and it was likely just a big one-off thing thanks to the big rise of internet access in Korea and gaming in general there. That it was a perfect storm unlikely to be repeated, and just the fact Boxer is playing a new game isn't going to somehow cause the same craze this time around.
You dont know any of that for sure, nobody knows where SC2 will be, but right NOW it is at a great spot, compare where SC2 is to where SC1 was in the late 90s and you see a very clear picture of how much more acceptable RTS esports has become, and yes before you get mad, all that is owed to Brood War and what it did.
To say SC2 will be bigger than BW or die in 2-3 years is absolutley insane, you are just guessing either way.
But what isent guessing, is that BW has had a declining popularity without SC2 even being released, that cannot be argued in any way, shape or form.
So SC2 is here to carry the legacy, or at least try to, and those of us who support it, many of us do so BECAUSE we love Brood War, becuase we love how Blizzard RTS games play (bar War 3), because we want to see the name "Starcraft" carry on to a new high.
Why cant BW just do that? Becuase the game has been declining, some new, fresh ideas and a newer game were needed to get new fans interested.
On October 13 2010 06:14 Raevin wrote: Boxer, Nada, July and even Jaedong has outright said that SC2 can reach hights BW never did.
I don't think they've said anything more than "this game offers many new gameplay options", which is obviously true especially coming from progamers who thought about strategies for so many years.
Jaedong said in his interview with that swedish site that he thought SC2 could become a bigger game not just in Korea but rest of the world and that he was interested in playing in some tournaments abroad.
He didnt say SC2 was a better game, infact im sure he thinks BW is a better game, but the point is: He dosent think SC2 "sucks" and is a pile of "shit" as many of you are talking about
And the reason you talk this way is becuase you have directed all your anger about BW towards SC2, which is just not fair nor justified.
eSports and ESPECIALLY SC2 are never going to be mainstream popular around the world like you are suggesting. Infact people familar with the scene in Korea on these forums say its unlikely for a repeat of the BW scene either at its peak and it was likely just a big one-off thing thanks to the big rise of internet access in Korea and gaming in general there. That it was a perfect storm unlikely to be repeated, and just the fact Boxer is playing a new game isn't going to somehow cause the same craze this time around.
You dont know any of that for sure, nobody knows where SC2 will be, but right NOW it is at a great spot, compare where SC2 is to where SC1 was in the late 90s and you see a very clear picture of how much more acceptable RTS esports has become, and yes before you get mad, all that is owed to Brood War and what it did.
To say SC2 will be bigger than BW or die in 2-3 years is absolutley insane, you are just guessing either way.
But what isent guessing, is that BW has had a declining popularity without SC2 even being released, that cannot be argued in any way, shape or form.
So SC2 is here to carry the legacy, or at least try to, and those of us who support it, many of us do so BECAUSE we love Brood War, becuase we love how Blizzard RTS games play (bar War 3), because we want to see the name "Starcraft" carry on to a new high.
Why cant BW just do that? Becuase the game has been declining, some new, fresh ideas and a newer game were needed to get new fans interested.
I agree with most of this post so i don't see what we are arguing about, i just don't think it will be a successful eSport internationally like the BW scene in Korea. It'll still be a major niche and i don't think for 11 years either, but thats just my opinion.
I don't like the attitude we need a new game to get new fans.. but unfortunately videogames are seen like that now and nothing can change that. Even BW still gets new fans who have never played it or seen it before, but it just doesn't have the exposure and people are too concerned with graphics over a genuinely skillful game. In the future i think games are going to need to be appreciated not for their age so much if they are to be considered real sports by people. they can't keep changing all the time.. at least games like Quake Live show that theres still a lot of people around who can see the value of a game beyond visuals.
On October 13 2010 06:33 Manifesto7 wrote: I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
Well, at least im glad i spent some of my best "gaming" years in BW, now with SC2 (that is a good game but im not interested in), i can move to another things with no regrets. GG.
On October 13 2010 06:33 Manifesto7 wrote: I am getting tired of this BW vs SC2 bullshit, and I am getting tired of fans from each game taking shots at each other.
Stop fucking derailing threads into useless passive aggressive baiting.
Though his post was unfair to what PoP said, was it deserving of a lifetime ban?
Every time I come back the news just gets worse and worse. I think there was a general understanding that BW wouldn't be around forever, that eventually it would decline in popularity, but I would have never thought that it'd all unravel so fast. Friday night I thought there'd be at least another season, but now...
It is a beautiful morning and my bike is ready for a ride. I'm going to work now. And then I have 9 hours to sit and ban people because I don't have to teach today.
So I guess most people who support Blizzard in this argue that Blizzard will somehow draw more money to the SC2 scene than there would be without their support and thus making eSports "bigger". Therefore, they accept that Blizzard has the right to kill BW off in a way.
a) Wouldn't the SC2 scene be just fine without Blizzards active involvement? I mean, sure, Blizzard wants to get some share of the revenues generated by eSports, but that doesn't mean it's in the best interest for fans or players. Blizzard didn't do anything good to the BW scene. b) Game companies have pushed countless games in the past, just look at all the ridiculous games that were played at the WCG over the years. But that support always died down after a while. And if you think that Blizzard would be loyal to SC2, even after the major sales-phase of the game (and the expansions) died down - just look at what is happening right now. In other words, game companies have no interest in keeping a community alive forever. Actually, that would ruin it for them, because they can't sell more games.
So the question really is. Do you want to have what I'd call the 'fatal1ty eSport' where players and fans switch games every couple of years. Or would you rather see eSport evolve into more of a 'normal' sport where the game stays the same for a long time.
Personally, I prefer the last, since it really brings out the best of players and the game. That's what I would call the 'new level of eSport' and I thought BW was that new step. So for me, this is actually looking like a step back.
On October 13 2010 06:48 Manifesto7 wrote: It is a beautiful morning and my bike is ready for a ride. I'm going to work now. And then I have 9 hours to sit and ban people because I don't have to teach today.
Make sure to dedicate at least 30 minutes to destroying sharks and wrestling bears.
1st) Kespa needs to go. This should be universally agreed upon. I don't like how it's being done by blizzard, but taking a stab in the dark and basing things on a best case scenario this will be one of those ends justify the means. Kespa was awesome in the begining, now it's just a hindurance.
2nd) SC2 did not need help to eventually overtake SC:BW. Given it would have taken longer because of Kespa, alot longer. In sense Blizzards tactics of Broadcasting rights, tournament oversight, and mass amounts of money being thrown at GSL are a two fold attack on Kespa and to act as a catalyst of propelling sc2 in popularity. It's unfortunate but taking several steps back and looking in it's probably the "quickest" way to do it. What it's led to is possible massive litigation where i feel will cause organized e-sports, at least korean e-sports to take a step back esp. if kespa and friends win.
3rd) To support the first statement in my second point. BW has slowly been losing mainstream viewership and popularity, it's become a niche mostly for the dedicated and hardcore. That is counter productive to furthering e-sports as a whole. You can't do much for an entire genre if you're slowly being pushed to the minority-fringe. While BW has given the most organized gaming model ever it wont help e-sports as a whole if it stays to it's own domain. supplanting a more popular game with future mainstream potential while building upon that foundation, in the long haul is a better for everyone involved. unfortuantly, like i said earlier, it's being done in a very distatesful way. But how much of that is Kespa's fault or Activision's greed i'll leave up to you.
4th) There is a very simple princinple of economics that needs to be considered. Blizzard/Activision/Kespa/GOM/Gretech/etc are all institutions. Institutions function to further themselves and their underlying bureaucracy. For Activision it's about money, for Kespa it's about Esports and control of that. You get the idea. In the FFA that's about to ensue you want Blizzard/Activision to come out on top, i hate to side with the evil empire. Hate hate hate it but it'll be for the better. to puruse their bottom line means more mainstream interests, globalization, uniformity, and creating a much larger pro scene out of korea which should translate into a better gaming experience and spectating experience for the rest of us. A truly global starcraft league that Blizzard is trying to create would be amazing, freaking amazing if they can pull it off.
finaly) Yea i loved BW. Love Love Love it. i cannot tell you how awesome it was when i first started playing BW in jr/high high school on 56k with my friends. Those were some awesome times. and as much as i remember jizzing over watching boxer replays at my friends house (he had cable.) the truth is this. BW had to have gone, eventually. SC2 was meant to supplant BW in the competitive gaming scene, those wanting to have both, while awesome, are terribly naieve and anyone who tells you otherwise is equally so. While BW will always hold a special place for me it's like the way i feel about my first girlfriend. She was awesome, i loved her, we had the most fun i can remember, and would do anything to go back to those days but things change. enviorments are completely different, she's been tainted by Kespa and we don't talk much anymore, or with the same spark as we use to. It's time to move on. Pro Gaming isn't like traditional sports where a hardwood court will not change. Where a basketball hoop stays the same and a free throw is a free throw. Pro Gaming is technology based and software based. Basketball/football/soccer = basketball/football/soccer. Pro gaming ecompass' too many things and believe me, it needs a large mainstream icon to rally behind. As disgusted as i am with how it's being brought about SC2 has the potential to start as the groundwork for a larger organized progaming scene. Just look at how Blizzard/activision has been constructed bnet2.0 Incomplete, missing alot that was previous in Bnet1.0, lack of alot of features, but from a coding standpoint it's a behemoth, it has the potential to do alot and that's what blizzards been trying to lay the groundwork for.
All of this is based of supposition of what could happen and from my standpoint what everyone's trying to do. I'm not clairvoyant but i think this needs to be made evident.
As far as the litigation in korea goes untill it gets settled and the dust clears in a few months after, we really wont know the fate of sc2 "GSL" and the impacts they'll have on the pro gamining community.
i aplogize for writing a novel, but it's a slow day at work.
Honestly, quite apart from any difficulty with SC2 or SCBW, the thing that worries me most is the death of proleague. What successful sport doesn't have some kind of domestic league system going? An sc2 proleague would be great, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen; in that case, the loss of the bw proleague is a massive blow for e-sports in general.
As is, we get to see fruitseller and boxer and tlo playing what, every few months or so in the GSL? And then what? We wait for the next tournament? It's not the same as getting to watch these guys day in and day out, and it's harder to grow attached to players or teams when you can't consistently follow them. I've only been semi-following proleague for a couple of years, but it seems to me that most players get their first break from playing in proleague. Many players who wouldn't otherwise get exposure get to play to a wide audience thanks to proleague. I'd be terribly sad to see it go.
As a long-time BW fan, I am not raging over SC2 creeping into the esports scene or whether it might replace BW. I want the best to happen for both BW and SC2, because I can get to see my old favourite stars like Boxer and Nada make it happen again in SC2 while enjoying the more intricate tactical acuteness of BW.
I am DISGUSTED instead by how Blizzard is trying to kill off BW just to force SC2 up our throats. Just because I enjoy watching BW does not mean I have to sacrifice that to watch another different game entirely, even if it is being forcefully touted as BW's successor. Whatever.
It makes me so SAD that the BW proscene is deteriorating. What happened to rational thinking here, that even veterans of TL are getting warned (or temp banned?) in favor of newer members?
I loved TL for its unique BW identity in the past, and for its wonderful jackpot of information on all players possible. It was a wonderful place for VoD's and live report threads. What is happening to all that now?
Now, TL is becoming more unrecognizable by the day. Slowly, SC2 fills up more of the forums and new members are paying less respect to what made this site successful in the first place: BW.
Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
EDIT: I had no idea the fighting between blizzard and kespa had been going on for so long. I wish they would be able to work out these problems and focus more on providing SC2 to the masses.
On October 13 2010 06:57 cocoa_sg wrote: Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
Actually, TL can't stay the way it was two years ago.
Read the banner at the top of the page: Starcraft Progaming News | Community | Team
It's a site about Starcraft, in short. Not just Starcraft: Brood Wars, but Starcraft 2 as well. If Teamliquid waits out until BW dies before fully embracing SC2, by then it will have missed its window of opportunity to become the world's best SC2 site. It's already the world's best BW site (as far as I'm concerned), but staying there without being active in the SC2 scene is simply inviting stagnation and decline.
This is a time of transition, and Teamliquid has changed with the times, just as it had to do to continue to be relevant. It's not easy, and it certainly isn't pretty at times- but I'm confident the site is headed in the right direction.
I still fail to see where people are drawing conclusions that "blizzard is forcing BW to die." These IP rights, as indicated in the OP, have been fought long before SC2, and started when KeSPA started charging for proleague broadcasting rights, something that in terms of IP, belongs to Blizzard to determine, not KeSPA.
The European company mentioned in the OP is probably a global company looking to break into Korean market, or to increase their exposure by hopping on the current GSL advertising frenzy. This company is probably not looking to take e-sports to the world stage.
Makes perfect sense to take advantage of a budding game that has already guaranteed 3-4 more years of development/balancing/patches/expansions, and developed by the company that made WoW, a long proven track record. (of keeping players on bait with balance/patch/expansion)
If SC2 gets to grow to world stage, they will treat it as a bonus.
There was a Mike Morhaim interview a long time ago where he stated Blizzard wants only 1 SCBW league (Proleague is redundant in their eyes, Starleague would survive but GSL would take precedence in terms of tv time slots), 1 SC2 league, and 1 tv broadcast station for games (GOM only streams online, so they would use OGN and come up with a lame excuse to reject MBC).
On October 13 2010 03:36 Slow Motion wrote: And here come the SC2 fans yelling about world "domiantion." I like SC2/GSL and hope it succeeds, but if you don't realize what esports would be without pro-BW I feel really bad for you.
Has it occurred to you that some of us want E-Sports to go to the next level - to have even bigger success that BW?
BW is/was still growing, its potential was unlimited, how can you say that you want it to go to the next level when there is no set level to overcome
human ignorance is amazing some times
Not really.
Spectator attendance at major events was already on a steady decline since well before SC2 was relevant. Even if SC2 hadn't come out, I highly doubt that BW events would be able to match the 100,000+ viewer attendance of 2004-2006. I love BW just as much as the next guy, but to pretend that the scene was still actively growing in any relevant way is silly.
On October 13 2010 06:57 cocoa_sg wrote: Sigh... just stop this madness already. Thanks for all the translations so far, but just... keep TL the way it always was... PLEASE!
Actually, TL can't stay the way it was two years ago.
Read the banner at the top of the page: Starcraft Progaming News | Community | Team
It's a site about Starcraft, in short. Not just Starcraft: Brood Wars, but Starcraft 2 as well. If Teamliquid waits out until BW dies before fully embracing SC2, by then it will have missed its window of opportunity to become the world's best SC2 site. It's already the world's best BW site (as far as I'm concerned), but staying there without being active in the SC2 scene is simply inviting stagnation and decline.
This is a time of transition, and Teamliquid has changed with the times, just as it had to do to continue to be relevant. It's not easy, and it certainly isn't pretty at times- but I'm confident the site is headed in the right direction.
Oops, sorry if I said things wrong. I do not mind TL transitioning into both a BW and SC2 pit-stop for all things related, but I just want logical rationality to continue here. From what I had observed the past few months, ever since SC2 beta came out, more and more rude (and new) members started coming in out of the woodwork. And now we have all those quarrels about BW vs SC2 which are totally unnecessary. I just want TL to remain the same as it always was, a central hub of useful information and awesome threads, not a blistering pot of hatred that grows by the day.
That being said, SC2 fans, CHILL OUT about BW. We can both co-exist together. Right now though, I still have trouble accepting SC2 as BW's successor if that means the death of BW. I just want the best for both worlds, but unfortunately, Blizzard is... just evil.
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
Well it's borderline and hard to call imo. Like how a swimmer or actually any sportsman would prepare an amount sick of time for a discipline. I mean, they get payed for it as well...
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
its not a required 12 hours, nearly every player practices way more than the required amount, which is something like 8 or 9.
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
Well it's borderline and hard to call imo. Like how a swimmer or actually any sportsman would prepare an amount sick of time for a discipline. I mean, they get payed for it as well...
On October 13 2010 07:24 cocoa_sg wrote:And now we have all those quarrels about BW vs SC2 which are totally unnecessary (...) I just want the best for both worlds, but unfortunately, Blizzard is... just evil.
You aren't helping end the quarrels between BW and SC2 by calling Blizzard evil, you know? :p It's as much a debate between BW and SC2 as it is between KeSPA and Blizzard / Gretech.
As to your main point...
On October 13 2010 07:24 cocoa_sg wrote:I just want logical rationality to continue here. From what I had observed the past few months, ever since SC2 beta came out, more and more rude (and new) members started coming in out of the woodwork.
If you're accountable for your actions in an internet forum, you will either:
a. Behave, or b. Eventually get banned.
If you're not accountable, you can misbehave and not get banned for it, which is pretty much what you're concerned about. The challenge, then, is to make posters as accountable as possible for what they post. I'm not an expert on that subject, but this was probably a step in the right direction.
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
Well it's borderline and hard to call imo. Like how a swimmer or actually any sportsman would prepare an amount sick of time for a discipline. I mean, they get payed for it as well...
Even slaves are housed and fed.
Like the average worker is any better.
The SPL seems more like a novelty now. No B-teamers or new players, just the cream of the crop duking it out on weekends. The individual leagues will be epic or weak and free of surprises. The fuck happened here . . . SPL used to be so awesome.
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
It has to do with competition. If the best (Flash/Jaedong) are training 12+ hours a day because they like it and they want to, how could someone inferior to them possibly stand a chance if they only trained 8 hours a day?
What are you gonna do, set limits on how long someone can train?
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
its not a required 12 hours, nearly every player practices way more than the required amount, which is something like 8 or 9.
It's common in Asian culture. If your senior trained for 9 hours, you jolly well put in 9 1/2 hours, and this builds up over time. Also, for the common folk who aren't blessed with superior capabilities, effort and hardwork is the pathway to success, and this amplifies with the competitiveness of each scene. If you remember Nal_ra's Old Boy, you will remember one progammer say "If you want to beat someone who trains for 8 hours, you should at least train for 8 hours"
To be honest, I wonder if Cho+Effort leaving had anything to do with what CJ is doing right now. And I also wonder whether or not what Rekrul said about Cho coming back was a troll.
Well this thread seemed like the proverbial nail in the coffin for BW.
Oh well, personally I'm looking forward to seeing how things end up with SC2.
I got bored of watching pro BW for a while now. Seems to me like it's just stagnating. People always say the skill ceiling is nonexistent... true, but the human skill cap exists, and I'm pretty sure Flash attained it. Don't think anyone will ever get more legendary than him. Watching him steam roll everyone is not that exciting to me anymore.
Although for SC2 itself, I'm worried about it being a spectator sport too. All the spells in that game are so boring, no joke. No swarm, no plague, no OP abilities that are balanced by player skiller/other OP abilities, which is what made BW so exciting for most of its lifespan.
Wow this is all just crazy. Everything is pointing towards SC:BW dying out sooner, rather than later, which is quite a shame. But I guess it was really all an inevitability with the way they have been handling negotiations..
On October 13 2010 07:10 Kazeyonoma wrote: I still fail to see where people are drawing conclusions that "blizzard is forcing BW to die." These IP rights, as indicated in the OP, have been fought long before SC2, and started when KeSPA started charging for proleague broadcasting rights, something that in terms of IP, belongs to Blizzard to determine, not KeSPA.
Long before SC2? SC2 was announced a couple months after the broadcasting issue (early 2007). Who knows how many years they've been working on it previously. The issue started being a big concern for Blizzard a couple months before the release of SC2.
On October 13 2010 08:07 Pandonetho wrote: Well this thread seemed like the proverbial nail in the coffin for BW.
Oh well, personally I'm looking forward to seeing how things end up with SC2.
I got bored of watching pro BW for a while now. Seems to me like it's just stagnating. People always say the skill ceiling is nonexistent... true, but the human skill cap exists, and I'm pretty sure Flash attained it. Don't think anyone will ever get more legendary than him. Watching him steam roll everyone is not that exciting to me anymore.
Although for SC2 itself, I'm worried about it being a spectator sport too. All the spells in that game are so boring, no joke. No swarm, no plague, no OP abilities that are balanced by player skiller/other OP abilities, which is what made BW so exciting for most of its lifespan.
It's funny how it's supposedly stagnated. We've seen developments in a few match-ups last season...
Flash attained it? People said the same of NaDa, then Oov, then sAviOr, then Jaedong...
Flash attained it? People said the same of NaDa, then Oov, then sAviOr, then Jaedong...
There's a limit to everything. The world's best runner athletes have nearly reached their maximum capabilities in terms of effectiveness. At that point, if they start to build any more muscle it will actually become less effective and they'll become slower.
With how Flash has dominated everyone more decisively than anyone in history (come on, they made a god line for him), and considering how much he practices every day, I don't think we can see any giant increase any time soon, at least not in physical potential.
With regards to mind games and build orders and such, maybe, but at this point I personally feel like that area of the scene has stagnated.
It's a scary time. I love BW, although I've only been following it since the beginning of 2008 (I know some vets here have followed it much longer), and if it dies I'll be really sad to see it go.
I have to be honest though, right now I feel so much more excitement from the budding SC2 scene than I do from BW. The BW scene for a long time now has been Flash > Jaedong >>>>>>> Everyone else. The dynamic SC2 scene and constantly changing metagame right now are a lot of fun to follow for me, along with new heroes like FruitDealer.
But it's a gamble. If BW dies, but SC2 takes its place and becomes bigger than BW ever was, then I would personally think it was worth it (I know some would disagree). But if SC2 fizzles out, then the BW scene will have been killed for no reason and that's just sad.
If BW does end up dying, I won't forgive Blizzard if they don't do their best to keep the SC2 scene healthy even through hard times. It's not like they aren't rolling in swimming pools full of money from their WoW income.
Edit: Does anyone wonder if the rumored 'big name' player in talks with a European corp is Jaedong? He gave that "Could be today, could be tomorrow, could be next year..." vague answer to SC2. Flash on the other hand seemed adamant that he would be playing BW for 5 more years.
This is a very interesting topic, and some really good points have been made. I really dislike the bw vs sc2 lame arguments tho. I have been following the bw scene for a few years now, and im loving it. The game is awesome, the leagues and all the hype surrounding it in korea. Not much of a player since i got slow hands but played a bit, also played some wc3 and now im getting owned in mid platinum in sc2. But that is beyond the point. Im an avid fan of the korean bw scene and ive followed it for a while now here on TL.
The main argument i see the "bw fans" using against Blizzard on this matter is that they are trying to kill bw in order to make way for sc2, that they should let them both live and let bw die its own natural death. I find it naive to think that bw could live together with sc2 in korea. Just think about it:
- a new game made by Blizzard, with the best chances of being the true succesor in rts esports - every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow. - new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go. - MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Now, Kespa is trying to hang on to it, because they have no chance at sc2. Blizzard didnt make the same mistakes again, and got bnet 2.0.
I dont rly like this Kespa conglomerate. They have been regulating the bw scene and making it into an esports, but not at the best conditions for the players. I still remember last year when Jaedongs contract was up, and the rules were so harsh that basically he had no choice other than to retire or resign with OZ. Yeap, Kespa sure loves them players. Dont give me the argument "but but, you need 12 hour training a day and lockdown in a room to get to high levels and entertain the public". Yea maybe, but those kids might not like it as much.
I guess what im trying to say is, that even without this scandal between IP rights and whatnot, the BW scene would die out eventually, not in 3-5 years but in maximum 1 year. I dont see both scenes surviving, and the only reason atm why the best players are not switching is Kespa and their hold over the proteams that pay some of the top. Slowly the old legends move and with them so will the audiences. You rly think the likes of Flash or Jaedong will keep playing OSL for 15k when there are 100k GSL tourneys in a game they could dominate ?
ps. Pls dont be so harsh yet with sc2. I agree its not as fun yet as bw, but there are 2 addons planned. It might take 3-5 years until wet see the final product, and it might actually be as balanced and good fun as bw is, maybe even sooner. Right now the game is in the early stages of development and evolution, but it sure is promising.
Wow its all starting to become real. Guess we'll see the impact when proleague starts back up.
Not sure how the a teamers will perform without their practice buddies. imagine just getting stomped by your teams aces all day everyday. I think the lvl of play will deteriorate if all this is true. Not everyone is a practice machine and I fear there might be some burnout among teams weaker players.
Im ashamed of how people defend that SC:BW is dead
First, I LOVE SC:BW and SC2, and I believe both Esports can convive together and their scenes can be strong individually
Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
..and you still believe SC:BW was dead, after all???
Come on, I dont wanna point, but there are several parts in here interested to see SC:BW fail to piece, and makes me sad quite a lot, because the game/scene has potential to get enough funds for everyone (KesPa and Blizzard)
I think SC2 will overtake the success that BW had. It's much more spectator friendly and easier for people to understand what they're watching. BW required you to have a lot of hardcore knowledge about the game to enjoy the matches. Seems like SC2 already has a larger momentum globally already.
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote: Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
And despite all of that, Proleague/Starleague finals attendances are still a mere shadow of their 2004-2006 numbers.
Even though we might see these things as great, they aren't great enough to keep the spectator base from shrinking.
17. A big European company has offered a current BW player a big contract with a condition of transitioning to SC2. It's one of those "what if he were to play SC2" type big name player. The offer is by far the biggest in SC2. The player in question has recently re-signed (Stork, Leta, Jaedong, and Flash are the only publicly known ones).
I bet this is false because I can't think of any European country that would want to do this... TL is one of the best foreigner teams and is sponsored by an obscure app maker. The biggest company pouring money into SC2 would have to be Blizzard, and I could see maybe they had a hand in bringing Boxer to SC2. But Blizzard is American and has a lot more to gain. Plus, Boxer is probably more influential than Flash/Jaedong. Taking Flash or Jaedong would probably be the deathblow for Brood War, and I don't know why any European company would want to come in and do that. Obviously GOM and Blizzard might profit from killing Brood War, but not any European company that could just coax a Brood War veteran with a big name that never plays anymore or one of the best people already playing SC2.
IF it is true, I bet it is Stork. Stork admitted considering switching to another team (before he finally resigned with Khan) and it has been rumored that he was laddering on SC2 at some point. Most of us assumed he was considering switching to another SC1 team, but that may not have been the case. Flash says he has never even played SC2 and I believe him. He's also making way more than anyone else in Brood War so he'd be hard to lead away, especially when he cares about his legacy and he's not getting his hands on any money anyway since his parents are all investing it for him for now. Jaedong is more likely than Flash but I haven't heard anything about switching teams or playing SC2 with him. Could be Leta because Hite's status was probably up in the air until the merger with CJ. Nevertheless, Leta leaving would be less important than Effort leaving (2nd best Zerg vs. maybe 5th best Terran). Stork is arguably the best Protoss right now (great case for Kal though) and arguably the best Protoss ever (better case for Bisu though).
I dunno how I would feel about Stork leaving at this point. I wanted him to stay and for Brood War to keep going as before, but Effort has already jumped ship, Khan has no Terran, two Proleague teams have disappeared... It also sucks that he has received a pay cut for his loyalty, even as he has kept up much better than Jangbi and Bisu.
There is no guarantee that Boxer nor the rest of the current BW stars will do well in SC2. I do, however, hope for their success. This was a nice long ride, BW. Thanks for entertaining me throughout high school... I will never forget it.
Personaly i gave the ball to Kespa and i asked Samsung help on it couse i start to shoot Gretech and the Corporation in europe will drop down like flies.
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote: Im ashamed of how people defend that SC:BW is dead
First, I LOVE SC:BW and SC2, and I believe both Esports can convive together and their scenes can be strong individually
Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
..and you still believe SC:BW was dead, after all???
Come on, I dont wanna point, but there are several parts in here interested to see SC:BW fail to piece, and makes me sad quite a lot, because the game/scene has potential to get enough funds for everyone (KesPa and Blizzard)
Everything you say might be true, but look at what has happened since then: -Looks like there may be no more MSL ever, or STX Masters, or Proleague on MBC -The start of Proleague is completely in doubt, two teams are already gone and MBC Hero might be next, the Proleague schedule will, at the very least, take up fewer days per week -Flash has beat Jaedong again and again to the point it is getting depressing, while no one else is even putting up as big of a fight as Jaedong (though I heard Kal put up a decent fight in Los Angeles, of course Flash saved his life in a pool so that might effect Kal's ability to get the killer instinct in future fights against Flash). Flash has surpassed Bonjwa status and gone into God status where the tension is gone for now. -Effort isn't even playing Brood War anymore, and might be going to SC2. -The Hyungjoon reality show featured the awesome MBC Game Hero coach, who retired. MBC might be getting rid of the MBC Game Hero team. MBC Game might be completely Starcraft-free by November. -nalRa's oldboy showed NalRa train for 11 episodes, and fail to win a single game at qualifiers. Compare this to SC2, where people are excited to see both Nada and Boxer qualify. JulyZerg also participated in qualifiers, and Garimto did pretty well in qualifiers. I think Grrrr... might have even tried out for fun in the first one. So people who enjoyed the nostalgia of the oldboy show might be more excited about SC2 than BW.
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote: - every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow. - new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go. - MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper.
With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW).
No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote: - every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow. - new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go. - MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper.
With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW).
No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
What makes you say Gretech and Blizzard don't want to see a team league? GOM is showing an SC2 team league exhibition less than 24 hours from now. I'm sure they'd love for it to expand into a team league. If the people saying GOM and Blizzard want to kill proleague are correct, surely they would have plans for a SC2 team league replacement.
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote: - every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow. - new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go. - MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper.
With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW).
No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
What makes you say Gretech and Blizzard don't want to see a team league? GOM is showing an SC2 team league exhibition less than 24 hours from now. I'm sure they'd love for it to expand into a team league. If the people saying GOM and Blizzard want to kill proleague are correct, surely they would have plans for a SC2 team league replacement.
Oh I don't know... maybe the fact that they straight out said they don't want team leagues?
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote: - every b team progamer will jump at the chance of a head start, a thing that is actually happening, and would have happened imo even if MSL/OSL/Proleague were set in stone and were to begin tomorrow. - new players would choose the new game mostly, there would be no pool for the further growth of bw. It would become a closed circuit and die, just like it probably will now. It's sad, but it's how things go. - MONEY, the big $$$. Sc2 is just an infant and ofc has large worldwide appeal at the moment. Blizzard speculates this and throws in a shitload of cash. Bw legends switch games, the public becomes more and more aware of sc2. Loads of players transition. This pretty much by itself means the slow death of the bw scene. Invariably, it cannot survive.
Those aren't the greatest points to make. For one, the courage tournament still has lots of applicants from people wanting to become SC1 progamers. Also, since SC2 doesn't have any team leagues (and won't if Gretech/Blizzard get their way) there is no way that most progamers will stay. You can have a top prize of a million dollars, and you'll still alienate over 80% of the progamers (B and low A) who won't see any of that, or just barely from making ro64 on occasion (which is still far too low to live on). In the end, you'll have a lot of people retire because they see no money, and no real sponsorship. Team leagues in BW gave airtime even to lesser players, and that made it worth to the sponsors to feed and house them (and give salaries in the case of A teamers), since they still appear on TV with the team logos. They even got fans because team fans rallied around the newer players with support and hoped they would prosper.
With individual leagues alone most of those players will never see the light of day, just like if BW in korea was only the OSL/MSL we wouldn't really know most of the players we know and love on the teams. After a few months of trying and not making it to the top 32 or so of the 1 tournament that they have there they will give up on progaming and play recreationally (there will probably be a couple more high profile tournaments in Korea later on, but they will also get dominated by the top 5-10% of players, like in BW).
No team leagues means in the long run, it will be hard for a game to flourish and grow.
What makes you say Gretech and Blizzard don't want to see a team league? GOM is showing an SC2 team league exhibition less than 24 hours from now. I'm sure they'd love for it to expand into a team league. If the people saying GOM and Blizzard want to kill proleague are correct, surely they would have plans for a SC2 team league replacement.
Oh I don't know... maybe the fact that they straight out said they don't want team leagues?
Well the reason I asked was because I hoped you could link me to that quote in context so I could look at it.
On October 13 2010 09:42 Zalfor wrote: team leagues are important though.
Quite, which is why it's a shame that blizzard seems set against them. Honestly, proleague was what drew me into bw at all; it felt like there was actually some structure to the whole setup with the team league and the individual leagues. If we don't see the like again, it'll be a massive shame.
Wow, this is a lot to take in at once. Yes they are just rumours, but it seems that most of the time when stuff gets posted on fomos or playxp etc then it ends up coming true in some form or another.
I think a lot of people knew in their hearts that something like this would happen eventually, even if they didn't want to believe it. What surprises me is that everything is happening so...fast. Even though BW was facing an uncertain future, we kind of took it for granted that there would be AT LEAST another one or two starleagues and seasons of proleague, but if these rumours are true then even that is starting to look uncertain. The level of anguish in this thread is understandable.
On October 13 2010 10:01 Holgerius wrote: Seems like my Gretech/Blizzard boycott will have to remain for quite a while.
Was there even any new information about Blizzard/Gretech here? Yeah, it says that they don't want proleague, and aren't negotiating with MBC, but we already knew that. Everything else was a logical progression from the original premises.
Whatever happens, I hope e-sports continues to move in the right direction. From what I've been reading, it seems the BW scene in Korea was if not stale, heading in the wrong direction. As a former competitive player of UT99 and TO, and a huge fan of e-sports in general, I hope SC2 can become very successful and live up to its predecessor or even surpass it. I am not sure why the hate on the game. Yes BW was very good, and it is very sad to see it go. As consumers, we want an ever-growing product that improves upon itself. Watching GSL/MSL/GSL on my computer at 5 in the morning is one thing. Watching it in a football stadium here in Canada or the US is even better.
Obviously, best case scenario is that BW and SC2 coexist. They are essentially very different games. However, if there is no constant stream of B-teamers and A-teamers, the Kespa format will eventually crumble. And the truth, the GSL is a tournament that is attracting a lot of the newer players as well as the old. I might be naive in saying this, but even if Blizzard wanted to force the death of BW for SC2, they haven't done so yet (well, haven't done anything drastic recently... the IP rights issue was discussed years before). So this GSL hype and all the players wanting to play SC2 is independent (or as independent as can be) of Blizzard.
Do you really blame these players from switching to SC2? Its new, its hot, and they can keep some freedom.
Before I get bombarded by the BW crowd for "SC2 fanboyism", I'd just like to let you know that I would love BW to stick around. But it doesn't look like that is going to happen. Having said that, I am all for keeping E-sports alive and growing, and that is true even if we have to take a few steps back.
So sad.... I hope we can have at least one more year of BW. Nothing lives forever in this world but this time BW got killed by their own creator. I think even the biggest optimists (which I was) about BW future can see now that its all over or will be over in the next year.
I hate Blizzard with all my heart from this day and vow to not buy SC2 or any other new game they develop in the future. You just couldnt left BW alone.
On October 13 2010 10:20 SkelA wrote: So sad.... I hope we can have at least one more year of BW. Nothing lives forever in this world but this time BW got killed by their own creator. I think even the biggest optimists (which I was) about BW future can see now that its all over or will be over in the next year.
I hate Blizzard with all my heart from this day and vow to not buy SC2 or any other new game they develop in the future. You just couldnt left BW alone.
^^^^^^I Totally agree.
I will pray to the lord that Brood War will stay. I just cannot believe this, but I have to remember these are unconfirmed rumors.
On October 13 2010 10:15 zenMaster wrote: Sadly this is proof that real e-sports can never last long-term. With probably 1 more year left, BW you will always be the best e-sports ever lived.
Edit: oh yeah, fuck sc2, blob on blob, MBS, smart-cast, auto-mine, hold move hold move micro, watered down skills to simulate balance.
ah yes, 10 years down the line we'll remember how we said goodbye to BW temporarily/permanently with such grace that the general public saw and thought 'my god, maybe I was wrong about these killer games after all, maybe this e-sports thing could have gone somewhere' or maybe not!
Why do you guys think Blizzard/Gretech hate team leagues? Not saying your wrong, just wondering what they are doing that gives the impression. I understand they don't want bw team leagues competing with them but it just seems weird..
also, there is a nice team tournament being held by gom tonight and going over the next 2 days with 8 of the korean sc2 teams.... just don't really know why they would want teams to be less of a factor, unless they don't want the former kespa involved teams involved.. even then, just tell them no..
On October 13 2010 11:24 BraveGhost wrote: Why do you guys think Blizzard/Gretech hate team leagues?
Perhaps because they directly stated that in an article that was posted a while back. Edit: Oh, you were looking for reasons. The biggest one is that Blizzard wants to have a minimal investment and Gretech will pretty much do whatever Blizzard wants them to.
This thread makes me so sad. As a SC2 and BW fan, seeing the community devolve to the point of "fuck Blizzard" and "BW is dead; accept it" is depressing; the constant potshots and bitter fury directed by e-sports fans against other e-sports fans is frankly disgusting and inexcusable in my eyes. We are all supporters of e-sports, in our own way; whether our preferred game for that is BW or SC2, we are one community. Attacking one another solves nothing, and only further hurts the scene. No SC2 fan's going to get involved in BW if all they hear is "SC2 is a lame, easy game. SC2 fans are mindless noobs." And no BW fan is going to get involved in SC2 if all they hear is "BW is lame and old and has bad graphics. Move on, losers."
For my part, I see no reason why SC2 and BW can't co-exist peacefully; and the fact that corporate powers are denying the fans that possible future is indeed a disgrace. I still maintain hope that that vision can still be a reality in one form or another; and I think Blizzard at least in some respects agrees with me.
Apart from that, I think at least some people are overreacting. Things like prominent players switching games, a reduction in team and player numbers, and new sponsors trying to entice players to switch would all have happened as long as there was a healthy SC2 scene period, regardless of the IP rights thing. They don't in and of themselves spell the end of BW. As long as Proleague is alive in some form, the BW scene will continue.
But even if the sky is falling and the world's about to end, this hatred, these insults and stupid comparisons are just not okay.
On October 13 2010 11:24 BraveGhost wrote: Why do you guys think Blizzard/Gretech hate team leagues? Not saying your wrong, just wondering what they are doing that gives the impression. I understand they don't want bw team leagues competing with them but it just seems weird..
also, there is a nice team tournament being held by gom tonight and going over the next 2 days with 8 of the korean sc2 teams.... just don't really know why they would want teams to be less of a factor, unless they don't want the former kespa involved teams involved.. even then, just tell them no..
sorry, I'm not really in the loop here..
Entirely speculation here. Probably the price tag for teams are too high, by turning to individual basis, smaller companies can have an easier time sponsoring to get their logo on player's jersey or something. It's also a lot easier to sell than trying to convince huge multi-billion companies to sponsor a team.
On October 13 2010 11:24 BraveGhost wrote: Why do you guys think Blizzard/Gretech hate team leagues? Not saying your wrong, just wondering what they are doing that gives the impression. I understand they don't want bw team leagues competing with them but it just seems weird..
also, there is a nice team tournament being held by gom tonight and going over the next 2 days with 8 of the korean sc2 teams.... just don't really know why they would want teams to be less of a factor, unless they don't want the former kespa involved teams involved.. even then, just tell them no..
sorry, I'm not really in the loop here..
Blizzard doesnt want teams and leagues for the team because it ruins their "vision of e-sports" where any players (Casuals and their mothers) can participate. Blizzard has been rolling out games and expansions where it is catered to casuals to increase profit margin as demanded by Activision. KeSPA teams and licenses is viewed by Blizzard as a barrier for a wider audience but of course, the trade off if there are no teams and license would be low quality matches and personality for being able to target a wider audience, where even YOU can participate in a GSL tournament.
Oh I don't know... maybe the fact that they straight out said they don't want team leagues?
Okay, this is crap. Remember the interview with the GOM guy that TL did?
It's not just gold and tennis that we looked at. We took ideas from many different sports. Even though e-sports comprises of games where a lot of players participate, like FPS games, I think RTS games are individual games. Even though there are teams in proleague, each match is individual. It's not like baseball or soccer(football) where you get a specific position and work with your team. If you cheat on an individual game, you lose, but in a team game, you still have a chance, if your teammates play well. That's why we made GSL an individual league. Also, there are political reasons. We could make team leagues too if the gaming teams all participate, but we're still in negotiation with the association, and this may take a long time. Although it is an individual league right now, we have the intentions to change the format to incorporate the teams somehow.
It's not just gold and tennis that we looked at. We took ideas from many different sports. Even though e-sports comprises of games where a lot of players participate, like FPS games, I think RTS games are individual games. Even though there are teams in proleague, each match is individual. It's not like baseball or soccer(football) where you get a specific position and work with your team. If you cheat on an individual game, you lose, but in a team game, you still have a chance, if your teammates play well. That's why we made GSL an individual league. Also, there are political reasons. We could make team leagues too if the gaming teams all participate, but we're still in negotiation with the association, and this may take a long time. Although it is an individual league right now, we have the intentions to change the format to incorporate the teams somehow.
On October 13 2010 11:24 BraveGhost wrote: Why do you guys think Blizzard/Gretech hate team leagues? Not saying your wrong, just wondering what they are doing that gives the impression. I understand they don't want bw team leagues competing with them but it just seems weird..
also, there is a nice team tournament being held by gom tonight and going over the next 2 days with 8 of the korean sc2 teams.... just don't really know why they would want teams to be less of a factor, unless they don't want the former kespa involved teams involved.. even then, just tell them no..
sorry, I'm not really in the loop here..
Blizzard doesnt want teams and leagues for the team because it ruins their "vision of e-sports" where any players (Casuals and their mothers) can participate. Blizzard has been rolling out games and expansions where it is catered to casuals to increase profit margin as demanded by Activision. KeSPA teams and licenses is viewed by Blizzard as a barrier for a wider audience but of course, the trade off if there are no teams and license would be low quality matches and personality for being able to target a wider audience, where even YOU can participate in a GSL tournament.
Cannot really respond about the whole vision of E-sport that Blizzard has though. But about Activision pulling the string is not really correct. Bobby may be there to make cash (and is probably not liked by a lot of people in many communities). But whatever is happening over at Blizzard is the works of Vivendi,(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivendi]) not by Activision really.
Activision is only merged togheter with formerly known Blizzard. And since both Mike and Bobby answers to the headquarters of Vivendi, and all stockholders. I think it's kinda safe to assume it's from there the pressure is coming mostly.
On a sidenote about Bobby though, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Kotick there are some really interesting comments and quotes from him if you are interested in how he views gaming and gamers and franchies.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
On October 13 2010 07:32 Ghad wrote: I think the BW esports system seems totally hostile and abusive towards players. Training 12 hours EVERY day, wtf?? Thats slave labour.
its not a required 12 hours, nearly every player practices way more than the required amount, which is something like 8 or 9.
I am really tired of reading crap like this. Not at seraph but Ghad. They are not fucking forced to do anything, they voluntarily practice that much to keep ahead of the competition. As been said by seRapH, they are not required to practice 12 hours. It is just that to keep ahead of the competition, some players practice 12 hours or more and for everyone else to keep up they have to practice as much or they will fall behind. Eventually that will happen to sc2 too if it gets competitive enough.
On October 13 2010 08:39 ptz wrote: The main argument i see the "bw fans" using against Blizzard on this matter is that they are trying to kill bw in order to make way for sc2, that they should let them both live and let bw die its own natural death. I find it naive to think that bw could live together with sc2 in korea. Just think about it:
Honestly, I don't really care about the sc2 scene(means I don't care whether it's successfull or whether it fails), all I care about is my bw scene.
Maybe I will start to care about sc2 scene if we get games the quality of Flash vs Jaedong.
The argument is basically let bw die when sc2 get big, NOT kill bw first, and then wait for sc2 to get big(if it will).
Hope that fucking clears all the misinformed crap that people are spouting out
And I will laugh at you if you think that esports can suddenly boom in the west with sc2 as bw did with korea. I will actually be glad if it takes off in the west but I am just being realistic here. There was that thread a while ago about video games, I can't seem to find it as I don't remember what its name was, but basically it's people here in TL commenting on video games being a waste of time and a waste of someone's life. Seriously if there are people among TL(considered by people as an elitist gaming forum among foreigners) like that, what do you think the rest of the west thinks of esports?
If bw dies, I'll probably give up gaming and I'll probably stop visiting TL(Forums have turned to crap recently anyways). I might just check the forums from time to time just for the anime thread.
I am sad that I didn't find bw proscene sooner. I am glad that I was at least able to meet you for a few years though <3 (I started watching sc during the end of GSI but didn't really get find TL and other leagues(didn't know where to watch) until Gom Season 3).
The only positive thing is Flash will be remembered as the greatest player of all time.
15. Former SK T1 coach Ju Hoon and Former KT (then KTF) coach Jeong Su Young is looking to create SC2 team. Coach Jeong has been looking into this since around the time Team NEX formed. It is also rumored that Boxer will most likely follow Coach Ju when he forms the team. Good news for BOXER
Please Brood War, if you can just hold on a tiny bit longer, just stay strong during these times of turmoil and we might be able to stay alive together, alongside SC2.
But does this remind anyone else of the BW Gom Starleague that Kespa completely shut down simply out of spite? Kinda feel like Gretech is getting it's own back because of it. I just wish Kespa had done things differently in the past. But damnit, I want my Brood War back If it fails it will be a huge example to the world that an E-Sport can only last so long before becoming obsolete.
I wish GOM would just go die. Yeah you guys got the rough end of the deal a couple years ago, but it doesn't mean you can come back now and become Blizzard's pet and fuck up the entire SCBW e-sports scene in Korea. Fuck you GOM.
On October 13 2010 13:12 rasers wrote: this could also mean that there will be another MSL or?
y... big drama on the 16th. people might die ! ^^
No word on MSL.
Even if there's no MSL, proleague is the key to the survival of the BW proscene. If proleague survives, there's always a chance they may revive MSL in the future.
On October 13 2010 09:13 Mintastic wrote: I think SC2 will overtake the success that BW had. It's much more spectator friendly and easier for people to understand what they're watching. BW required you to have a lot of hardcore knowledge about the game to enjoy the matches. Seems like SC2 already has a larger momentum globally already.
I disagree. Sc2 is much harder to watch. The view angle and zoom lvl makes it difficult to see what's actually happening in an army battle as opposed to bw. Also you do need greater game knowledge of sc2 units and their counters to understand what's going on. Bw is much simpler in that respect. Its clear what every unit does after u seen it once. Sc2 units have quirks to them u might not see until used. As a spectator more than a player i find sc2 overall to be harder to follow.
I really do believe that its inevitable that a team league will start up for SC2 if BW Proleague ever does go down. I also think it's currently incredibly important for anyone to be able to participate in tournaments for SC2 to develop. If it's a closed system like for BW (you need to obtain a pro-gamer license, then manage to join a Pro-team to even get off the ground), it'll be discouraging for potential gamers. Right now, most importantly they have to maximize the player/fan base for SC2 to have a bright E-Sports future.
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote: You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.
yeah yeah sad kids. not like they know what they chose? if they want 2 have a family( with 16-20 :D) or go 2 college or whatsoever they can do it. but if they under a contract yes they have to train its with every other professional sport. u have 2 train otherwise ur out end of the story. and 8-10 hours is not even much... its a "normal" work day like some office job or whatsoever but instead u play starcraft also after 5789349858934589435 interviews u will become a robot in this interviews because 99% u have 2 answer the same stuff over and over again.
but yeah. GSL is awesome . bring them back to the good old eat ramen only be scared to not get enough money 2 make a living WOHO.
Uh, rasers, who said anything about how much they have to train? Hmmmm one person, you. My point, and the post I quoted is simply about how controlling Kespa is, and that it really is not necessary. People train just as hard for the GSL, so I really fail to see your point.
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote: You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.
Yeah, damn Kespa and their robots:
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successful therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......
Oh, and by the way if this is some kind of attack on how long I have been a fan of sc, I started as a fan of agent911, and grrr, so if that was your goal I think you fail.
On October 13 2010 13:52 Varbind wrote: Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successfull therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......
When i get to watch pro BW then Kespa is justified. Throw everything out the window because they are providing me with my favorite entertainment.
So you blame everything on Blizzard for the perceived troubles of pro BW? Really, because no one here has any idea as to the details of the negotiations between the interested parties. People like to pretend that they do, but it is mostly bs.
I do not blame either party as I simply do not have enough information. You should consider why you seem to give Kespa a free pass as to the troubles bw is having right now. Myself, I highly doubt they are blame free.
EDIT:
I shoudl probably clarify, what I meant is Kespa's actions should be questioned along with Blizzard, no one deserves a free pass in this situation
On October 13 2010 13:52 Varbind wrote: Aru, I also fail to see your point. Esports is successful therefore all the actions of Kespa are justified? I am just guessing, but I hope your thinking isnt that simple......
Oh, and by the way if this is some kind of attack on how long I have been a fan of sc, I started as a fan of agent911, and grrr, so if that was your goal I think you fail.
I was lazy and copied the entire post that someone else posted for you, but I thought it was fairly obvious I was attacking your statement claiming that Kespa somehow forces their players to be drones. If you had actually took the time to look at some of the pictures, you would certainly see these Kespa "drones" not being very drone-like.
'SHINHAN BANK Pro League will be finally opened on this Sat. (Oct. 16). Detailed things including match-ups will be unveiled on tomorrow. ^^' -KeSPA's Twitter
On October 13 2010 14:00 supernovamaniac wrote: Interrupting discussion to inform this:
'SHINHAN BANK Pro League will be finally opened on this Sat. (Oct. 16). Detailed things including match-ups will be unveiled on tomorrow. ^^' -KeSPA's Twitter
YES! Reading this thread is depressing for a BW fan, I had almost given up on any decent resolution. Good news at last.
Pictures can capture a moment of happiness I am sure, but I am talking about how bad the interviews of pro bw players are. It is almost a joke about how little they say, have you ever watched any of the vids artosis puts out? He kids them all the time, I hope you are not going to give me the standard answer that I always get...... yet they always do. Exceptions are rare.
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote: You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.
Please stop with this misinformation. Read my previous post specificially concerning that. Also to add to my previous post, that is the kind of life they chose. They made a conscious decision on that. They are well aware that being a progamer requires tons of hours of practice to be successful. Also, consider that their culture is different from yours, so while you might see it as 'slavery' as very few people in the west can handle a lifestyle like that(hence, very few foreign progamers), it is something normal to them.
Glad to see that PL might start and be aired on MBC.
The saddest thing is that players like Boxer, Nada, or July are basically committing delayed suicide. The insane level of the BW scene left them in the dust so they decided to switch to SC2 and have a chance to shine again. But because they are iconic players with a huge fanbase, their switch will hasten the death of BW and cause real top players like Flash/JD/etc to transition earlier. And once that happens they'll most probably get trounced again. But if they keep playing BW they have next to no chance to achieve anything either so they don't really have a choice. It's really, really sad.
That's why I really hope BW PL can last some more time. This way we can still enjoy raw skill in the form of the best players playing the best game (as of yet - SC2 might evolve into a great game too), and we also have the chance to see the old stars rise and shine again in SC2. Best of the two worlds imo.
Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?
I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.
I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.
Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.
The Starcraft 2 proscene will be as sterile as the current Brood War proscene the minute big money companies start sponsoring players. Enjoy it while it lasts.
On October 13 2010 14:10 Matoo- wrote: Glad to see that PL might start and be aired on MBC.
The saddest thing is that players like Boxer, Nada, or July are basically committing delayed suicide. The insane level of the BW scene left them in the dust so they decided to switch to SC2 and have a chance to shine again. But because they are iconic players with a huge fanbase, their switch will hasten the death of BW and cause real top players like Flash/JD/etc to transition earlier. And once that happens they'll most probably get trounced again. It's really, really sad.
That's why I really hope BW PL can last some more time. This way we can still enjoy raw skill in the form of the best players playing the best game (as of yet - SC2 might evolve into a great game too), and we also have the chance to see the old stars rise and shine again in SC2. Best of the two worlds imo.
Yeah I have the same feeling about this news. Having Brood War played for one more season can end the scene on a high note and give some of the old legends like Nada, Boxer, and ChRh the one last chance to really shine in the large pile of SC2 "progamers"...
On October 13 2010 14:11 Varbind wrote: Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?
I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.
I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.
Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.
Maybe sponsors don't want their players to say things that will embarass them? It's standard business practice to limit the PR people in things they say. Players in the GSL aren't bound to a specific contract, and thus only represent themselves. Remember the shitstorm started by Blizzard from some wrong words in an interview. No company wants to leave a bad impression on themselves.
Well, Varbind, admittedly I did not watch all of the GSL, but all the postgame interviews I saw were in general no different from what I saw in BW. I remember one guy who didn't even look at Artosis once when they were "talking" through the translator. And no, I did not watch any of Artosis' interview vids, but honestly, I don't expect them to be much different from the GSL ones due to the language barriers.
I attempted to find interviews from the GSL to get some sort of feel about it, but again, nothing struck me as if they're freely speaking their minds nor their answers being grossly different from the "typical" BW answers. For reference, this was one I read: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153164
You have a point, but I disagree. When you look at the NHL, NFL, Premier League, etc, etc there are controversial statements made on a daily basis. So yes, I feel that Kespa is exceptionally strict, and I am very happy to see this change for the good.
I love Broodward, I just hope that it can continue under a compromise. It will take both Blizzard and Kespa to make that happen. However all I see these days is people bitching about Blizzard. It takes two my friend.
Also, Nada and Boxer were in all but name retired already. They get another kick at the can, how can that be anything but a good thing? You act as if a second chance, however short, is worse then no chance at all? I cannot understand how that makes sense.
On October 13 2010 14:11 Varbind wrote: Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?
I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.
I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.
Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.
well u call them drones. drones are slaves. so yes.
and also u obvious dont know what it means if u are in a prof. team (i dont know either) but i know that u dont say anything u want because u represent the team and not you. u talk about the game mb 1 thing else and its done its always like that not only in pro SC in korea made by the evil kespa.
they get the same question over and over again. so what do u expect them 2 say?
I think you are talking about Davit, he became famous for how bad his interview was. It was hilarious, and just goes to show that there is less control without kespa involved.
One key difference between GSL/Kespa interviews is that players are more willing to speak about their chances, and simply do not say the same old bs.
I will train really hard I will do my best Please cheer for me etc etc etc
Those 3 phrases above cover 80 percent of what players say in interviews.
I do not know how to talk to you about this since you have not watched the GSL interviews, nor have you watched the Artosis broodwar interviews.
I tried to find the interview that Artosis did with Really from Estro, but scforall seems to be down. In it he is constantly shocked by how frank Really was. Actually answering his questions instead of repeating the same ole bs. This was so rare, so rare.
Also, Nada and Boxer were in all but name retired already. They get another kick at the can, how can that be anything but a good thing? You act as if a second chance, however short, is worse then no chance at all? I cannot understand how that makes sense.
That is a good thing, I'm agreeing with Matoo's post. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Wom,
You have a point, but I disagree. When you look at the NHL, NFL, Premier League, etc, etc there are controversial statements made on a daily basis. So yes, I feel that Kespa is exceptionally strict, and I am very happy to see this change for the good.
I love Broodward, I just hope that it can continue under a compromise. It will take both Blizzard and Kespa to make that happen. However all I see these days is people bitching about Blizzard. It takes two my friend.
NHL, NFL, Premier League, etc aren't Korean. From my impression, its just how most of Asia works. Someone more experienced with these things can clarify but most Kpop singers, for example, are treated in similar ways, if not worse, than the current crop of Brood War players: they generally don't say anything extremely controversial and even some singers aren't allowed to own mobile phones.
Pretty certain when big money Korean companies start putting money into these teams, its going to end up being the same. It already is pretty sterile besides a small number of progamers bitching about zerg being the weak race or whatever.
The beginnings of Brood War, heck even two years ago, were fairly lively. The guys from the past tended to be fairly personable and even recently guys like Rock, FBH, Chalrenge, and Zeus have shown that they have real character. Nothing has changed, FBH can still dance and Rock can continue to embarrass himself if he really wants to.
Ignoring Kespa influencing the players, I think a lot of the current Brood War players are just naturally...normal and boring. Jaedong and Flash aren't angry nerds like Idra is, they're pretty modest, quiet guys from the impression most people give.
Also I imagine most don't say anything because of the community backlash you tend to get from these comments or actions. Stork said some pretty rough stuff about Kwanro in an interview and got quite a bit of backlash from the community for rolling with the punches.
The point is there are a lot of other factors besides Kespa being all controlling and evil. Kespa is shit but there are reasons for the sterile nature of the proscene besides Kespa; no one is stopping FBH from saying shit and dancing that Abracadabra hip dance but most don't because its embarrassing.
if they get different questions they will give different answers... i mean what do you expect them 2 say if they ask them "how far will you go" blablalb "how much did you prepare" and shit like that.
Rasers, that is true, they do get different questions in the GSL. I guess primarily due to the fact that the questions originate from western cultures (via the forums) and from Artosis as well.
However, GomTv allows them to be asked. Repeat that to yourself as guess what, GomTv is a Korean company. Why then does Kespa not do the same?
To me Kespa strikes me as a massive control freak, they always have. Remember the ppp incident?
I have to wonder, if Blizzard had made the deal with Kespa, and GomTv had never had the chance to get back in the game, would these questions ever be asked? If your answer is no, then you begin to see my point.
On October 13 2010 14:11 Varbind wrote: Nem, please point out where I talked about slavery, practise time or anything along that line. What misinformation are you referring to? Do you actually read my posts?
I will repeat it again, what I don't like is how controlled the players are. They have to give the answers to interviews that are expected of them. It makes them all seem the same, and it is hard for them to really differentiate themselves.
I really like in the GSL that players feel more free to speak their minds, and it is far more interesting to me.
Please, please refute my point, and not some preconception that you already have in your head.
Oops sorry, I was just so fed up with those kind of post that I was referring to. But your post is still misleading.
They players are not controlled in any way at all. They can answer any interviews however they want. Maybe, you should read some of the interviews. In general, the players are just more humble than foreigners. Source your claims please, before you start talking about stuff that you haven't been following.
progamers have to watch what they say because they are likely to reappear on air. when there are gamers who have staying power in the SC2 tournaments, do you really believe they will not spout the same old bs?
On October 13 2010 13:39 rasers wrote: yeah yeah sad kids. not like they know what they chose? if they want 2 have a family( with 16-20 :D) or go 2 college or whatsoever they can do it. but if they under a contract yes they have to train its with every other professional sport. u have 2 train otherwise ur out end of the story. and 8-10 hours is not even much... its a "normal" work day like some office job or whatsoever but instead u play starcraft also after 5789349858934589435 interviews u will become a robot in this interviews because 99% u have 2 answer the same stuff over and over again.
but yeah. GSL is awesome . bring them back to the good old eat ramen only be scared to not get enough money 2 make a living WOHO.
It's a good point. I heard an interview with Dwight Howard (top NBA center for the Orlando Magic basketball team) recently. His daily schedule is basically wake up at 6 in the morning, go to the track and run, have a scientifically tailored breakfast, go to the weight room, have a scientifically tailored lunch, go to the basketball court and work on his post moves and shot, have a scientifically tailored dinner, study game film, go to sleep early. If you want to be the best at any competition, you have to totally immerse yourself in the game, because if anyone else does and has as much natural talent as you, and you don't, you're going to get beat.
The interviewer was shocked because we get this idea that NBA players are always fucking around at the casino or whatever, but they only do that during their two week (one month?) off-season unless they are Michael Jordan. But no, to be the best in the NBA it helps to slave away like a Korean Starcraft player.
I think you are talking about Davit, he became famous for how bad his interview was. It was hilarious, and just goes to show that there is less control without kespa involved.
One key difference between GSL/Kespa interviews is that players are more willing to speak about their chances, and simply do not say the same old bs.
I will train really hard I will do my best Please cheer for me etc etc etc
Those 3 phrases above cover 80 percent of what players say in interviews.
I do not know how to talk to you about this since you have not watched the GSL interviews, nor have you watched the Artosis broodwar interviews.
I tried to find the interview that Artosis did with Really from Estro, but scforall seems to be down. In it he is constantly shocked by how frank Really was. Actually answering his questions instead of repeating the same ole bs. This was so rare, so rare.
Check it out, it is all I can say.
I dunno that the Brood War interviews were really that bad. Stork, for instance, has given plenty of golden answers (although some of them have gotten him flack despite being innocuous by American standards... then again Stork seems to have a good perspective about things and not letting the whining public get him down unless people are bothering his girlfriend).
On October 13 2010 15:00 rasers wrote: if the SCII players would be under a contract of a professional team no. if the SCII players dont have a contract with a pro team yes.
but that is not about kespa its normal its everywhere like that when u have pro teams. aftergame interviews are always boring will always be boring.
Perhaps this is true in Germany? In America people have gigantic egos so our professional sports players are always running their mouth and generating drama.
Varbind, you can simply direct me to something that will show me one of these player interviews from the GSL that aren't bound by Kespa. Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. I don't really need to see any other type of interview (re: Really's video).
Also, it's pretty clear why Kespa does not broadcast their games in English: they have nothing to broadcast with--no TV stations nor internet streams. Maybe you should ask OGN and MBC why they don't. Oh, that's right, their primary market is advertising on television with Korean products. I'm sure us folks in the western hemisphere have easy access to these same products!
Gretech's primary source of revenue is from the GOM player and paid internet streams. It makes sense for them to reach out to the international market. They did it with BW for 3ish seasons too, when neither cable companies did.
Yes, Kespa has done a lot of dumb things. Yes, it would be nice if Kespa was less strict. But it is extremely insulting to the players and their fans when you call them "drones". You can hate on Kespa all you want, but don't start shitting on the players.
On October 13 2010 02:29 leakingpear wrote: You say that like KeSPA haven't been abusing the eSports movement for years and years now in order to further the companies that constitute it in terms of advertising and even revenue through the PL broadcasting rights issue. The players have been systematically trained to downplay their own efforts and achievements so they don't at any point abuse their celebrity in a way that could upset the systems that KeSPA have created. This is probably the first time in 6 or 7 years that many of these progamers have thought about anything but progressing within the current rigid system, without ever questioning whether the system itself is a good idea in the first place.
The Korean eSports scene thrived because of the combination of celebrity and production values, of which sponsors were needed, but ever since the Boxer boom the balance of power has slowly and steadily swung into a system where players are meant to just be grateful to play for such a venerable and great team and give up everything in order to continue. I suspect the majority of progamers still love brood war, but that doesn't mean they should love the perverted system that just happens to be the only choice, especially when they can have better prospects in a game that's very similar and has the added option of being somewhat undiscovered in terms of strategy.
Also progamers are people, people with lives and not zealots for the great god brood war intent on dying for their cause, as much as you won't want to admit it, brood war is just a game and these kids probably have other ambitions down the road, like going to college, or having a family, or selling fruit.
Wow, this was a fantastic post, thank you! So often people do not consider what it must be like to be one of these drones/progammers underneath Kespa. It has always struck me how robotic they are especially in interviews. They simply have no character/uniqueness. The difference is so notable in the GSL, they have the ability to act normally and are far more animated and actually act like the incredibly young people they actually are. Honestly under Kespa the progammers always reminded me of the athletes from Russia at the olympics.....afraid to say the wrong thing.
On September 30 2010 03:43 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Thanks for the thread, OP. The problem I have with the new SC2 crowd that make light of Brood War is that they have no idea what it has really accomplished, or what ESPORTS really is. I think what we need to do is clarify once and for all what BW fans mean by ESPORTS. ESPORTS isn't about having tournaments or whose (prize pool) is bigger. ESPORTS is playing video games competitively on television. ESPORTS is being government-sanctioned and culturally-approved.
ESPORTS is filling stadiums with thousands of people. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is a three-year-old girl being your biggest fan. + Show Spoiler +
ESPORTS is idolizing and arguing about your favorite players even when you don't understand a word they say. + Show Spoiler +
Is SC2 a successful ESPORT already? Is it going to supplant BW as the ESPORT? Do you think we'll have ESPORTS in the West? Do you think ESPORTS in Korea is irrelevant? Be sure you know what you're talking about before you answer.
Edit: Added more.
I had never seen that Hiya picture... I spontaneously yelled "WHAT THE FUCK?!" and my parents heard and got mad.
Nem, you just assume I have not read those interviews already. To correct you, yes I have read them previous to our conversation. I am a huge BW fan, how could I have not read them? Simply because I do not love Kespa, do not assume I am not a fan of pro BW. It is quite frustrating actually that you keep assuming I am ill informed.
I just get the sense that people are so upset about the chance that pro bw might fail, that they emotionally repond without thinking to anything that does not completely back Kespa at this stage. This makes me very sad. Kespa deserves to be questioned, as does Blizzard.
I just want to repeat one more time that I blame both equally at this stage simply because I do not have enough information to tell who is truly at fault. I suspect both parties just suck myself.
Pry, Stork is my man, he is an exception to the rule. I love his interviews. He actually shows me just how bad most of them are, as he is so refreshing in what he says.
Ok, I am out for the night. Have a good one all
Aru, I can't respond in full, but I never meant to imply that they are drones, but that the Kespa rules they must obey make them appear to be drones. I was not attacking the players, but simply the rules Kespa creates. Hope that helps. Night again.
It's not just gold and tennis that we looked at. We took ideas from many different sports. Even though e-sports comprises of games where a lot of players participate, like FPS games, I think RTS games are individual games. Even though there are teams in proleague, each match is individual. It's not like baseball or soccer(football) where you get a specific position and work with your team. If you cheat on an individual game, you lose, but in a team game, you still have a chance, if your teammates play well. That's why we made GSL an individual league. Also, there are political reasons. We could make team leagues too if the gaming teams all participate, but we're still in negotiation with the association, and this may take a long time. Although it is an individual league right now, we have the intentions to change the format to incorporate the teams somehow.
I figured it was crap. Everybody kept citing some random article from way back when that they were too lazy to find about Blizzard not wanting teams. They probably just don't want to deal with a Kespa-like intermediary.
On October 13 2010 14:55 Varbind wrote: Rasers, that is true, they do get different questions in the GSL. I guess primarily due to the fact that the questions originate from western cultures (via the forums) and from Artosis as well.
However, GomTv allows them to be asked. Repeat that to yourself as guess what, GomTv is a Korean company. Why then does Kespa not do the same?
To me Kespa strikes me as a massive control freak, they always have. Remember the ppp incident?
I have to wonder, if Blizzard had made the deal with Kespa, and GomTv had never had the chance to get back in the game, would these questions ever be asked? If your answer is no, then you begin to see my point.
Flash got asked if he watched porn once, and of course he denied it. However, the questions asked of players aren't nearly as controlled as you think they are. See.
Another thing you need to understand is that it is pointless to ask challenging questions to progamers, who will almost always be polite and conservative in their interviews. Their answers are not guided by any KeSPA policy, but from what is expected of them by their fans and their teammates. Having a good reputation is very important to these players.
On October 13 2010 15:24 Varbind wrote: Nem, you just assume I have not read those interviews already. To correct you, yes I have read them previous to our conversation. I am a huge BW fan, how could I have not read them? Simply because I do not love Kespa, do not assume I am not a fan of pro BW. It is quite frustrating actually that you keep assuming I am ill informed.
I just get the sense that people are so upset about the chance that pro bw might fail, that they emotionally repond without thinking to anything that does not completely back Kespa at this stage. This makes me very sad. Kespa deserves to be questioned, as does Blizzard.
I just want to repeat one more time that I blame both equally at this stage simply because I do not have enough information to tell who is truly at fault. I suspect both parties just suck myself.
Pry, Stork is my man, he is an exception to the rule. I love his interviews. He actually shows me just how bad most of them are, as he is so refreshing in what he says.
Ok, I am out for the night. Have a good one all
No because you're wrong. No one is defending Kespa here, its just because literally that's how most Korean progamers are: they're normal, boring people who just so happen to like playing computer games (nerds that play computer games all day are boring people? what's new?). There are still people who give decent interviews and act out but most don't because guys like Best find doing ceremonies to be embarrassing and people like Stork have noticed that saying shit isn't worth the potential backlash from netizens.
This is all such miserable news. If even half of those rumors are true BW really is dying and that is just heartbreaking. I'll never ever be as passionate and excited about SC2. I'll never go nuts with anger or exultation after watching a game. This feeling would never happen to fans in other realms. Sports don't just die. SC2 has been a tragedy.
I'll admit I was wrong in thinking that BW wouldn't be phased quite this much by SC2. I sorta assumed the players would be a bit more loyal to BW but it looks like SC2 gutted all of the less accomplished pros, and the ones that were past their prime in BW.
Flash and Jaedong are godly players but they can't keep BW alive on their own.
IF sc2 kills BW pro scene im gonna run into blizzard HQ dressed as an infested terran with real explosives shouting "MY LIFE FOR THE SWARM". Seriously though fuck that sc2 garbage.
There wont be huge organized leagues if proleague dies ..
but if proleague lives and finishes PL 2010-2011 then i there will be PL for SC2 and all of the good games that will be produced by any developer that can be E-sport material.
you guys think about it.
if blizzard wins, we will never have good things ever again. you wont see sc2 gonna be as big as BW now. we will just be nerds to society. there will be no growth in e-sports. because kespa can always say 'fuck it', and leave it all behind if they wanted and the ones who are going to be at the losing end are the workers and fans that made e-sport what it is now.
if kespa wins, blizzard will still be fine, their games will be advertised for free, they wont have bad P.R. to REALLY HARDCORE fans, hell, slowly but surely you'll get to see more sponsored foreign teams and they might even start their own League because an E-sport League was possible despite the overwhelming odds against the organizers(KeSPA).
if blizzard wins, its our lose
if blizzard lose, blizzard still wins, and we also win .. its a fucking WIN:WIN ..
On October 13 2010 17:29 Boonbag wrote: Looks to me sc2 could become huge in korea ! It is possible that when it goes mainstream, the game could change dramatically I think.
its a possibility, this all commotion started when blizzard ridiculous demands for broadcasting rights that developed into a Grudge match between Kespa and Gretech.
all of them thinking about short term gains .. SC2 would have been big already in korea if it was handled by kespa. correct me if im wrong, but i dont see how gretech can support that shit ton of prize money in the long run. Blizzard won't fund it if they think they have already advertised enough SC2 in korea.
On October 13 2010 17:49 writer22816 wrote: Oh well, if BW dies I will follow the SC2 scene just to see how badly it will fail.
That will be fun to see that you completely failed in this statement in like 2 or 3 years.
SC2 will fail in 5 or 6 years but it will decline in 2 or 3 years without professional leagues. just like WC3.
SC2 will at least be propped up artificially for those 2-3 years while Blizzard releases the expansions and convinces sponsors to pour money into keeping the scene alive.
horrible "news" i want to watch both SC:BW and SC2, mostly because at the moment they give 2 completely different viewer aspects to me.
i watch SC:bw for the micro, the unit control that is currently not that present in SC2 i watch SC2 for the strategy and how players "out think" eachother
Sad news to boot, just because of red tape everyones shooting at each other
Oh SCBW, i will fervently wish for your continuous existence, for making me scream like a little girl while clapping my hands like a retarded penguin whenever jaedong does some insane flank + clutch swarm that saves himself in the nick of time, Jangbi doing his trademark storms, jaehoon doing his observer recall and Flash just showing impeccable MnM micro
On October 13 2010 17:49 writer22816 wrote: Oh well, if BW dies I will follow the SC2 scene just to see how badly it will fail.
That will be fun to see that you completely failed in this statement in like 2 or 3 years.
SC2 will fail in 5 or 6 years but it will decline in 2 or 3 years without professional leagues. just like WC3.
The time will show who of us is right. SC2 is just the other game. While SCBW is all about macro and micro, SC2 is much much more about game decisions, the thing which cannot be trained straight.
I dont have the time nor the motivation to read all topics and all BW related articles. Is there someone who could summarize for me why BW should die? Is it the same kespa vs blizzard thing or is it due to that teams and player seem to move over?
I love BW and dont really like sc2 that much. But it still would be fun to see all those huge players and persoanl favourits play sc2.
I think about that roumor of the big player that got a offer from a company. If its Jaedong he could take it. I think JD feels he have won alot in BW and atm he cant seem to touch Flash. If he gets alot of cash to move to SC2 he might see his chance to find motivation to do be great at something new.
I hope its Stork though. Man I want to see how good Stork could get at SC2.
I understand the sc 1 sadness that these leagues may disappear. But wanting sc2 to fail is really childish and selfish. Blizzard makes great games in comparison to what else is out there so to want them to fail is idiotic. People who hate sc2 strike me as being similar to 80 year olds Irl who hate change. Change can be good.
I was seriously hoping Kespa/OGN/MBC would stick it out for BW and just try to weather the legal challenges as best as they can. So much for that.
People have been anticipating an SC2 esports scene almost entirely based on what we have here in BW, but it won't last because SC2 can't stand on its own merits as a game, and Blizzard sorely fucked up the logistics such that any "scene" they have is constantly going to be in flux with how they're handling the releases and battlenet.
BW can stand on its own merits, but can't survive between Blizzard's determination that it should die.
Well i would be sad if it was natural disaster. But i'm not. I'm FURIOUS becouse i know that was remote detonation.
Oh, well. Time to leave teamliquid, netwars and gosugamers, no more time wasting here and there. I dont care about SC2 leagues even if i dont wish them to fail.
On October 13 2010 20:04 adeezy wrote: I understand the sc 1 sadness that these leagues may disappear. But wanting sc2 to fail is really childish and selfish. Blizzard makes great games in comparison to what else is out there so to want them to fail is idiotic. People who hate sc2 strike me as being similar to 80 year olds Irl who hate change. Change can be good.
it can be good but just because its from blizzard it doesnt mean it has 2 be good. i think SCII is terrible but what makes it even worse for me is taht it has fanboys like u "OH LOOK ITS BLIZZARD THE GAME IS GOOD" no matter what they will do. they could make zerglings shit for spreading the creep tumor and u guys would be like "WOW SO GOOD"
and just because other games may be worse it doesnt mean blizzard games have 2 be good. also who the fuck cares if its childish or selfish? stillt want it to die. took a thing i loved for many many years and i know i will never love a game that much again.
but it will fail anyway :D atleast in the west... so stop dreaming... people wont be like "OH LOOK ITS SCII NOW THEY ARE NO NERDS. GOOD THAT THEY DONT PLAY SOME OTHER GAME CAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE THEM NERDS %)" mainstream in the west thinks u me everyone here is a freaking fat nerd and SCII wont change anything so stop dreaming.
On October 13 2010 20:04 adeezy wrote: I understand the sc 1 sadness that these leagues may disappear. But wanting sc2 to fail is really childish and selfish. Blizzard makes great games in comparison to what else is out there so to want them to fail is idiotic. People who hate sc2 strike me as being similar to 80 year olds Irl who hate change. Change can be good.
it can be good but just because its from blizzard it doesnt mean it has 2 be good. i think SCII is terrible but what makes it even worse for me is taht it has fanboys like u "OH LOOK ITS BLIZZARD THE GAME IS GOOD" no matter what they will do. they could make zerglings shit for spreading the creep tumor and u guys would be like "WOW SO GOOD"
and just because other games may be worse it doesnt mean blizzard games have 2 be good. also who the fuck cares if its childish or selfish? stillt want it to die. took a thing i loved for many many years and i know i will never love a game that much again.
but it will fail anyway :D atleast in the west... so stop dreaming... people wont be like "OH LOOK ITS SCII NOW THEY ARE NO NERDS. GOOD THAT THEY DONT PLAY SOME OTHER GAME CAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE THEM NERDS %)" mainstream in the west thinks u me everyone here is a freaking fat nerd and SCII wont change anything so stop dreaming.
You are everything that is wrong with SC/BW.
And saying SC2 sucks is, by taking an at least a little unbiased look, just wrong.
It is not SC/BW, you can hate it for that, but you can't hate it for being terrible. Because it isn't terrible.
On October 13 2010 20:04 adeezy wrote: I understand the sc 1 sadness that these leagues may disappear. But wanting sc2 to fail is really childish and selfish. Blizzard makes great games in comparison to what else is out there so to want them to fail is idiotic. People who hate sc2 strike me as being similar to 80 year olds Irl who hate change. Change can be good.
it can be good but just because its from blizzard it doesnt mean it has 2 be good. i think SCII is terrible but what makes it even worse for me is taht it has fanboys like u "OH LOOK ITS BLIZZARD THE GAME IS GOOD" no matter what they will do. they could make zerglings shit for spreading the creep tumor and u guys would be like "WOW SO GOOD"
and just because other games may be worse it doesnt mean blizzard games have 2 be good. also who the fuck cares if its childish or selfish? stillt want it to die. took a thing i loved for many many years and i know i will never love a game that much again.
but it will fail anyway :D atleast in the west... so stop dreaming... people wont be like "OH LOOK ITS SCII NOW THEY ARE NO NERDS. GOOD THAT THEY DONT PLAY SOME OTHER GAME CAUSE THAT WOULD MAKE THEM NERDS %)" mainstream in the west thinks u me everyone here is a freaking fat nerd and SCII wont change anything so stop dreaming.
You are everything that is wrong with SC/BW.
And saying SC2 sucks is, by taking an at least a little unbiased look, just wrong.
It is not SC/BW, you can hate it for that, but you can't hate it for being terrible. Because it isn't terrible.
I'd say it's thoroughly unremarkable.
If it was some random indie game, I would be impressed, but it's buildup and pedigree totally outmatch what it ultimately became. It's lifeblood is just running on momentum and not substance. That won't hold longterm.
OGN/MBCgame is kind of fucked no matter what they do. If they stick with BW, they alienate Blizzard, can't broadcast SC2, and risk losing BW ANYWAY because of the IP challenges. If they concede to Blizzard, destroy BW, and broadcast SC2, their centerpiece for esports is gone and replaced with a mediocre doppelganger that isn't viable for the long run.
Just watch some replays from the first weeks of the game and some fresh ones. The game is evolving.
At this time saying it won't hold up is the same as saying that it is clearly the superior game than SC/BW and therefore replaces it. It's just to early to make statements like this.
On October 13 2010 22:38 Velr wrote: What makes you think something like this?
Just watch some replays from the first weeks of the game and some fresh ones. The game is evolving.
At this time saying it won't hold up is the same as saying that it is clearly the superior game than SC/BW and therefore replaces it. It's just to early to make statements like this.
People's expectations are high,I mean look at the amount of hype for the game.I just want people to stop looking at is as "oh its the sequel to the most awesome game in the world and it sucks because i doesn't live up to it" and try taking it as a new game.....
SC2 has potential its what we make of that potential,SCBW is right now a far better game but SC2 has only been explored very little in which is still only a third of the game.
What i'm trying to say is that don't take it as the "sequel to BW" rather as "StarCraft 2" which is a new game.
Velr you think the game would have even half the player pool if it would have come out with the name "Battle of the Stars" or whatever
The game lives on BWs merits and everyone changing because it got the name SC2
Personally I hate the game and ive tried watching it and playing it but I just cant enjoy it for various reasons... When SC2 kills BW thats it for me gamingwise, and of course it hurts when something new comes in and kills the only game ive loved and played/watched for 10+ years
On October 13 2010 22:36 SimonB wrote: I'd say it's thoroughly unremarkable.
If it was some random indie game, I would be impressed, but it's buildup and pedigree totally outmatch what it ultimately became. It's lifeblood is just running on momentum and not substance. That won't hold longterm.
OGN/MBCgame is kind of fucked no matter what they do. If they stick with BW, they alienate Blizzard, can't broadcast SC2, and risk losing BW ANYWAY because of the IP challenges. If they concede to Blizzard, destroy BW, and broadcast SC2, their centerpiece for esports is gone and replaced with a mediocre doppelganger that isn't viable for the long run.
Have you even played SC2 lol? I guess Boxer and NaDa gave up their salaries on their teams to play SC2 with no certain income just because they think the game is so mediocre.
SC2 might not be as great as SCBW yet, but it's so new and not at all figured out yet. I'm having a blast playing it nevertheless and lots of others are aswell. SC2 could definitely hold long term, not saying it will because noone knows that and that includes you.
SC2 is great, SCBW is great but SC2 is the new thing and for your own sake you should learn to love it because SCBW has been declining for the last years. SC2 is kind of the final nail in the coffin it seems even though that obviously is very sad.
You starcraft conservatives should stop boycotting SC2 because it will hurt none but yourselves.
On October 13 2010 22:52 Husmusen wrote: Velr you think the game would have even half the player pool if it would have come out with the name "Battle of the Stars" or whatever
No, it would have less. No one is arguing that.
But with the bnet (as lacking as it is atm) and it's gameplay it still could get big. Potential is there, thats all that needs to be there at this point.
I mean... From reading in this tread i got the feeling that, even if there was a better RTS than SC/BW, you guys would not play it because it is not SC/BW and could possibly become the next big thing in Korea.
Your sounding as if someone has stolen your candy...
And as others have said... If there wouldn't be obvious potential not as many Progamers/B-Teamers/Legends would have switched to it, at least not before there even is a Proleague or anything like it.
I loved you and you were among the most beautiful things, SC, but your time has passed. There was no budging the Flash/Jaedong status quo, no renewal, no new revolutions to be had.
Now it's the time for rebirth. The stage is set. Let the show commence.
On October 13 2010 22:36 SimonB wrote: I'd say it's thoroughly unremarkable.
If it was some random indie game, I would be impressed, but it's buildup and pedigree totally outmatch what it ultimately became. It's lifeblood is just running on momentum and not substance. That won't hold longterm.
OGN/MBCgame is kind of fucked no matter what they do. If they stick with BW, they alienate Blizzard, can't broadcast SC2, and risk losing BW ANYWAY because of the IP challenges. If they concede to Blizzard, destroy BW, and broadcast SC2, their centerpiece for esports is gone and replaced with a mediocre doppelganger that isn't viable for the long run.
Have you even played SC2 lol? I guess Boxer and NaDa gave up their salaries on their teams to play SC2 with no certain income just because they think the game is so mediocre.
SC2 might not be as great as SCBW yet, but it's so new and not at all figured out yet. I'm having a blast playing it nevertheless and lots of others are aswell. SC2 could definitely hold long term, not saying it will because noone knows that and that includes you.
SC2 is great, SCBW is great but SC2 is the new thing and for your own sake you should learn to love it because SCBW has been declining for the last years. SC2 is kind of the final nail in the coffin it seems even though that obviously is very sad.
You starcraft conservatives should stop boycotting SC2 because it will hurt none but yourselves.
because they want 2 show their fans that they still can play a game on top level and win. (boxer said it) and they know it wont happen in BW.
and yes I think its terrible its my opinion i even think Wc3 is far better. why should i need 2 learn SCII? just because it has Starcraft in its name? i doubt boycotting SCII will hurt me ... why should it? i dont want 2 see it.
On October 13 2010 20:23 hitthat wrote: Well i would be sad if it was natural disaster. But i'm not. I'm FURIOUS becouse i know that was remote detonation.
Oh, well. Time to leave teamliquid, netwars and gosugamers, no more time wasting here and there. I dont care about SC2 leagues even if i dont wish them to fail.
GG no RE esport.
I feel pretty much the same way. SC is dead for me without BW and the proscene. It's a time saver for me at least
I dont believe that how fans of sc are so ignorant
Heres facts: 1-A lot of pros switching to sc2 already (even #3 player (effort) with quite good contract (it should be good right)) and legends like boxer and nada already qualified for GSL 2- 2 teams have already disbanded, 3rd team on the way, lots of coaches retiring, switching to sc2, working on founding new teams on sc2 and there is no goddamn b-teamer coming on because it is too fucking hard to get any good on sc2 (See point 5) 3-Only 1 individual league instead of usual 2 will be played and it is not certain that there will be a proleague 4-Kespa has no goddamn choice on sc2 because with bnet 2.0, it takes 1 sec to ban players, who play for any other league but gsl and blizzard can sue them making money on their game and shut down kespa too 5-Cool has just won 85k$ and it takes like 1 month of intensive training to qualify for a shot of that money instead of 1 year hardcore training and still got raped. Which one would you choose? 6-And dont fucking say that kespa is good at all. Last year we all remember that what happened to JD and his free agency stuff, (Kespa basically said retire or play with oz, its your choice) yeah kespa is fucking good lol. 7-And OGN is about to get an agreeement with blizzard too so i dont think that demands of blizzard are too harsh and mbc basically said gtfo to blizzard so blizzard has right to say gtfo to mbc imo
I'm all for IP rights and honestly side with Blizzard on all this. But I have one huge problem and I guess I can completely understand why everyone is so pissed.
There is a reason why SC2 needs to die and BW needs to survive. For eSports to ever be considered 'evergreen' and not just this constantly-in-flux scene full of fads and hype-with-little-substance there need to be games that do not significantly change with time.
Think about it: millions of people turn on the TV to watch Baseball, Football, and Tennis. These games have not changed in hundreds of years and are highly respected. Chess is a very prestigious and technically complex game that is in many ways very similar to Starcraft, but one big difference is that Chess been around in more or less its current form for nearly a thousand years.
People want to be able to compare the Baseball stars of today to those of 50 years ago. People are still interested to see how their team or favorite pitcher will do against the other guys. And the game hasn't changed at all. Why can this be true of other games and not of Brood War?
Maybe we're wrong to think a single video game, or any game or sport anymore, could possibly be respected enough to be played for a thousand years, or even 100 or 50 or 10. Perhaps its just a question of tempo and 'who gets there first'. But I believe if gamers ever want to prove that gameplay and substance can trump shiny graphics and hype, this is where they ought to make their stand. If gamers want to ever earn the respect of the masses, there needs to be an establishment and tradition. And that cannot come if gamers keep cycling to a new game every few years.
On October 13 2010 22:36 SimonB wrote: I'd say it's thoroughly unremarkable.
If it was some random indie game, I would be impressed, but it's buildup and pedigree totally outmatch what it ultimately became. It's lifeblood is just running on momentum and not substance. That won't hold longterm.
OGN/MBCgame is kind of fucked no matter what they do. If they stick with BW, they alienate Blizzard, can't broadcast SC2, and risk losing BW ANYWAY because of the IP challenges. If they concede to Blizzard, destroy BW, and broadcast SC2, their centerpiece for esports is gone and replaced with a mediocre doppelganger that isn't viable for the long run.
Have you even played SC2 lol? I guess Boxer and NaDa gave up their salaries on their teams to play SC2 with no certain income just because they think the game is so mediocre.
Indeed. Additionally, they speak highly of SC2. While SC2 still has some rough spots, even the pro players disagree with the fanboys who hate on SC2.
On October 13 2010 23:31 Hyperionnn wrote: I dont believe that how fans of sc are so ignorant
Heres facts: 1-A lot of pros switching to sc2 already (even #3 player (effort) with quite good contract (it should be good right)) and legends like boxer and nada already qualified for GSL 2- 2 teams have already disbanded, 3rd team on the way, lots of coaches retiring, switching to sc2, working on founding new teams on sc2 and there is no goddamn b-teamer coming on because it is too fucking hard to get any good on sc2 (See point 5) 3-Only 1 individual league instead of usual 2 will be played and it is not certain that there will be a proleague 4-Kespa has no goddamn choice on sc2 because with bnet 2.0, it takes 1 sec to ban players, who play for any other league but gsl and blizzard can sue them making money on their game and shut down kespa too 5-Cool has just won 85k$ and it takes like 1 month of intensive training to qualify for a shot of that money instead of 1 year hardcore training and still got raped. Which one would you choose? 6-And dont fucking say that kespa is good at all. Last year we all remember that what happened to JD and his free agency stuff, (Kespa basically said retire or play with oz, its your choice) yeah kespa is fucking good lol. 7-And OGN is about to get an agreeement with blizzard too so i dont think that demands of blizzard are too harsh and mbc basically said gtfo to blizzard so blizzard has right to say gtfo to mbc imo
just my views on your points
1) name me some other players other than effort who have a) performed decently in proleague/individual leagues b) made frequent appearances c) isn't an old time veteran (referring to players like IntoTheRainbow, Boxer, Nada, etc) d) isn't a b-teamer/practice partner who have moved on to SC2 2) with a new frontier, this is only natural. this however does not point to brood war as being completely "dead" 3) proleague is stated to resume, though negotiations may not have been settled. this is still an ongoing case. 4) i don't see the relevance of this point 5) good point which people will have to agree. however, i feel that once the better players start dominating real hard after a few seasons/years, the same scenario that happens in BW (what happens to B-teamers) will also happen in SC2. 6) kespa screwed up many times, yes. but it is because of kespa that everything has gone more or less smoothly since its foundation. yes, they can be dickheads at times but they learn every time (example: not "gg" = DQ), and they get shit going and done in the end. 7) i don't know about MBC's stand so i have nothing to say here.
but i still fail to see why all these add up to ultimately giving you "concrete" evidence that "bw scene is dead".
have all sponsors pulled out? have fans abandoned all the stadiums? are the taek-bang-lee-ssang and other well-known players quitting anytime tmr? have the passion for the game been completely lost?
On October 13 2010 22:36 SimonB wrote: I'd say it's thoroughly unremarkable.
If it was some random indie game, I would be impressed, but it's buildup and pedigree totally outmatch what it ultimately became. It's lifeblood is just running on momentum and not substance. That won't hold longterm.
OGN/MBCgame is kind of fucked no matter what they do. If they stick with BW, they alienate Blizzard, can't broadcast SC2, and risk losing BW ANYWAY because of the IP challenges. If they concede to Blizzard, destroy BW, and broadcast SC2, their centerpiece for esports is gone and replaced with a mediocre doppelganger that isn't viable for the long run.
Have you even played SC2 lol? I guess Boxer and NaDa gave up their salaries on their teams to play SC2 with no certain income just because they think the game is so mediocre.
SC2 might not be as great as SCBW yet, but it's so new and not at all figured out yet. I'm having a blast playing it nevertheless and lots of others are aswell. SC2 could definitely hold long term, not saying it will because noone knows that and that includes you.
SC2 is great, SCBW is great but SC2 is the new thing and for your own sake you should learn to love it because SCBW has been declining for the last years. SC2 is kind of the final nail in the coffin it seems even though that obviously is very sad.
You starcraft conservatives should stop boycotting SC2 because it will hurt none but yourselves.
and what about esports followers who love to watch BW? should they switch to watching a new game because it is 'the new thing'? i thought we were discussing esports here.
it is also unlikely that boxer was NOT paid to switch over. look at all the news regarding how highly organizations view boxer for the success of SC2.
On October 13 2010 23:31 Hyperionnn wrote: I dont believe that how fans of sc are so ignorant
Heres facts: 1-A lot of pros switching to sc2 already (even #3 player (effort) with quite good contract (it should be good right)) and legends like boxer and nada already qualified for GSL 2- 2 teams have already disbanded, 3rd team on the way, lots of coaches retiring, switching to sc2, working on founding new teams on sc2 and there is no goddamn b-teamer coming on because it is too fucking hard to get any good on sc2 (See point 5) 3-Only 1 individual league instead of usual 2 will be played and it is not certain that there will be a proleague 4-Kespa has no goddamn choice on sc2 because with bnet 2.0, it takes 1 sec to ban players, who play for any other league but gsl and blizzard can sue them making money on their game and shut down kespa too 5-Cool has just won 85k$ and it takes like 1 month of intensive training to qualify for a shot of that money instead of 1 year hardcore training and still got raped. Which one would you choose? 6-And dont fucking say that kespa is good at all. Last year we all remember that what happened to JD and his free agency stuff, (Kespa basically said retire or play with oz, its your choice) yeah kespa is fucking good lol. 7-And OGN is about to get an agreeement with blizzard too so i dont think that demands of blizzard are too harsh and mbc basically said gtfo to blizzard so blizzard has right to say gtfo to mbc imo
just my views on your points
1) name me some other players other than effort who have a) performed decently in proleague/individual leagues b) made frequent appearances c) isn't an old time veteran (referring to players like IntoTheRainbow, Boxer, Nada, etc) d) isn't a b-teamer/practice partner who have moved on to SC2 2) with a new frontier, this is only natural. this however does not point to brood war as being completely "dead" 3) proleague is stated to resume, though negotiations may not have been settled. this is still an ongoing case. 4) i don't see the relevance of this point 5) good point which people will have to agree. however, i feel that once the better players start dominating real hard after a few seasons/years, the same scenario that happens in BW (what happens to B-teamers) will also happen in SC2. 6) kespa screwed up many times, yes. but it is because of kespa that everything has gone more or less smoothly since its foundation. yes, they can be dickheads at times but they learn every time (example: not "gg" = DQ), and they get shit going and done in the end. 7) i don't know about MBC's stand so i have nothing to say here.
but i still fail to see why all these add up to ultimately giving you "concrete" evidence that "bw scene is dead".
have all sponsors pulled out? have fans abandoned all the stadiums? are the taek-bang-lee-ssang and other well-known players quitting anytime tmr? have the passion for the game been completely lost?
1: most players are still bound by contract, just wait and see what happens when they aren't lol 2: it points to the obvious collapse of broodwar, GSL has only gone through one 1 month season and look how much has changed 3: yeah but trouble is brewing 4: how can you not see the relevance, blizz has an iron grip 5: maybe maybe not 6: kespa is retarded 7: just the beginning
On October 13 2010 23:31 Hyperionnn wrote: I dont believe that how fans of sc are so ignorant
Heres facts: 1-A lot of pros switching to sc2 already (even #3 player (effort) with quite good contract (it should be good right)) and legends like boxer and nada already qualified for GSL 2- 2 teams have already disbanded, 3rd team on the way, lots of coaches retiring, switching to sc2, working on founding new teams on sc2 and there is no goddamn b-teamer coming on because it is too fucking hard to get any good on sc2 (See point 5) 3-Only 1 individual league instead of usual 2 will be played and it is not certain that there will be a proleague 4-Kespa has no goddamn choice on sc2 because with bnet 2.0, it takes 1 sec to ban players, who play for any other league but gsl and blizzard can sue them making money on their game and shut down kespa too 5-Cool has just won 85k$ and it takes like 1 month of intensive training to qualify for a shot of that money instead of 1 year hardcore training and still got raped. Which one would you choose? 6-And dont fucking say that kespa is good at all. Last year we all remember that what happened to JD and his free agency stuff, (Kespa basically said retire or play with oz, its your choice) yeah kespa is fucking good lol. 7-And OGN is about to get an agreeement with blizzard too so i dont think that demands of blizzard are too harsh and mbc basically said gtfo to blizzard so blizzard has right to say gtfo to mbc imo
just my views on your points
1) name me some other players other than effort who have a) performed decently in proleague/individual leagues b) made frequent appearances c) isn't an old time veteran (referring to players like IntoTheRainbow, Boxer, Nada, etc) d) isn't a b-teamer/practice partner who have moved on to SC2 2) with a new frontier, this is only natural. this however does not point to brood war as being completely "dead" 3) proleague is stated to resume, though negotiations may not have been settled. this is still an ongoing case. 4) i don't see the relevance of this point 5) good point which people will have to agree. however, i feel that once the better players start dominating real hard after a few seasons/years, the same scenario that happens in BW (what happens to B-teamers) will also happen in SC2. 6) kespa screwed up many times, yes. but it is because of kespa that everything has gone more or less smoothly since its foundation. yes, they can be dickheads at times but they learn every time (example: not "gg" = DQ), and they get shit going and done in the end. 7) i don't know about MBC's stand so i have nothing to say here.
but i still fail to see why all these add up to ultimately giving you "concrete" evidence that "bw scene is dead".
have all sponsors pulled out? have fans abandoned all the stadiums? are the taek-bang-lee-ssang and other well-known players quitting anytime tmr? have the passion for the game been completely lost?
1-Those players you listed are still making money from their teams so its logical not to switch to sc2 and they all have their contracts too 2-I didnt say that it is dead, but it is declining and even blizzard didnt force bws death, it will die in 1 year (imo) 4-Let me explain clearly, kespa wants to go on bw because they cant exist on sc2 at all (organizing their tournaments) and blizzard made HUGGGEEEEE invesment (money and time) on their new game and of course that they want their "new" games played, not bw because they cant make any money from bw right now and they want to make bw players buy sc2 and play it asap 5-Yeah when skill level goes extreme high like bw, it will be probably hard as bw but not at the moment 6-I dont say fuck kespa completely, i enjoyed watching and playing bw for like 7 years but it is truth that bw is falling down
would no. 17 pertain to Effort?? he is after all Flash's practice partner and one of the very few zergs that could go up against the Ultimate Weapon. or it could be Savior. even though those things happened to him he is still one of the famous progamers in BW and the most controversial! >.<
i posted somewhere else but anyway, just to repost here, i mentioned that i do not deny that bw has been slowing down (for lack of better phrase), but well, after seeing how negotiations have failed and both parties were being dicks, seems like it's going to be all up to the court -.-
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote: Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
And despite all of that, Proleague/Starleague finals attendances are still a mere shadow of their 2004-2006 numbers.
Even though we might see these things as great, they aren't great enough to keep the spectator base from shrinking.
who cares about attendence. is the viewers on TV still high? that is where they make their money, through advertisement. attendence is just free for show. it's not like new players can garner the crowds fan favorites like boxer, savior, yellow, nada, oov could
On October 13 2010 09:10 pR0gR4m3R wrote: Remember what has happened in the SC:BW during last year
- Incredible OSL finals. SC:BW gets into another level of sponsoring and also first international finals ever
- Good MSL finals
- Excellent ProLeague ratings
- JaeDong and Flash, best players in the last 2 years, also rising of EffOrt, fantasy, Leta, Bisu, etc... BIG NAMES that are keeping the game alive with news strats, ect..
- TWO REALITIES: Hyungjoon and Nal´ras oldboy
And despite all of that, Proleague/Starleague finals attendances are still a mere shadow of their 2004-2006 numbers.
Even though we might see these things as great, they aren't great enough to keep the spectator base from shrinking.
who cares about attendence. is the viewers on TV still high? that is where they make their money, through advertisement. attendence is just free for show. it's not like new players can garner the crowds fan favorites like boxer, savior, yellow, nada, oov could
On October 14 2010 01:21 Garaman wrote: who cares about attendence. is the viewers on TV still high? that is where they make their money, through advertisement. attendence is just free for show. it's not like new players can garner the crowds fan favorites like boxer, savior, yellow, nada, oov could
It would seem sensible to think that there's a correlation between live attendance numbers and TV audience numbers (if less people don't think the event is worth going to, then similarly, less people will think the event is worth turning on the television for). I would think that lower attendance numbers implies lower TV audience numbers as well.
I love SC:BW and enjoyed all the years watching it. I was amazed at the evolution of strategy / styles / builds for a 10-year old game. I was astounded by the skill, precision and timings of how the pros play. For me, there probably would not be another game like Brood War.
However, I've switched over completely to SC2. It's just newer, fresher and more exciting for me. I for one am sad at the decline of BW but I do welcome it. This is so that all the best players will switch to the game I'm currently watching (SC2). I want the best players to play it so that strategies can just be refined as BW was.
On October 14 2010 01:56 Azzur wrote: I love SC:BW and enjoyed all the years watching it. I was amazed at the evolution of strategy / styles / builds for a 10-year old game. I was astounded by the skill, precision and timings of how the pros play. For me, there probably would not be another game like Brood War.
However, I've switched over completely to SC2. It's just newer, fresher and more exciting for me. I for one am sad at the decline of BW but I do welcome it. This is so that all the best players will switch to the game I'm currently watching (SC2). I want the best players to play it so that strategies can just be refined as BW was.
This. Move on. Its over. It was a great run, and you know what, SC2 is going to have a great run too. Look at all the greats already moving over to it.
) name me some other players other than effort who have a) performed decently in proleague/individual leagues b) made frequent appearances c) isn't an old time veteran (referring to players like IntoTheRainbow, Boxer, Nada, etc) d) isn't a b-teamer/practice partner who have moved on to SC2
SangHo, MVP
Dunno if I agree that OGN agreeing with Gretech necessarily means the Blizz demands are reasonable, they might just feel its worth it anyway - impossible to know without knowing the exact terms.
This is tragic. I thought that BW would live as long as there were sponsors and fans. There are fans, there are sponsors, how can't we blame SC2
I am at the moment attending a very boring Oracle training, so I was showing my colleague the last OSL finals VODs (he's living in Shanghai too but he couldn't attend). He loves it and asked me to reinstall BW on his computer and give him a replay pack... He plays SC2 in bronze league btw, but agrees it's so much more exciting to watch BW. And he can't even fully understand what's going on in the games.
What am I going to do without PL/MSL/OSL. I'm gonna be bored to death.
On October 13 2010 23:43 SirKibbleX wrote: I'm all for IP rights and honestly side with Blizzard on all this. But I have one huge problem and I guess I can completely understand why everyone is so pissed.
There is a reason why SC2 needs to die and BW needs to survive. For eSports to ever be considered 'evergreen' and not just this constantly-in-flux scene full of fads and hype-with-little-substance there need to be games that do not significantly change with time.
Think about it: millions of people turn on the TV to watch Baseball, Football, and Tennis. These games have not changed in hundreds of years and are highly respected. Chess is a very prestigious and technically complex game that is in many ways very similar to Starcraft, but one big difference is that Chess been around in more or less its current form for nearly a thousand years.
People want to be able to compare the Baseball stars of today to those of 50 years ago. People are still interested to see how their team or favorite pitcher will do against the other guys. And the game hasn't changed at all. Why can this be true of other games and not of Brood War?
Maybe we're wrong to think a single video game, or any game or sport anymore, could possibly be respected enough to be played for a thousand years, or even 100 or 50 or 10. Perhaps its just a question of tempo and 'who gets there first'. But I believe if gamers ever want to prove that gameplay and substance can trump shiny graphics and hype, this is where they ought to make their stand. If gamers want to ever earn the respect of the masses, there needs to be an establishment and tradition. And that cannot come if gamers keep cycling to a new game every few years.
The problem with E-Sports is that the mainstream is constantly changing due to improved graphics, hardware, etc, unlike the other sports mentioned. Hockey, Baseball, Basketball being played today is practically the same sport as the sport 50 years ago. Problem with holding on to BW is that less and less people play it as time goes on (even in Korea, gradually more and more of the BW fans are people who played the game back in the day but now simply follow it on TV). Now, SC2 is the new mainstream, so E-Sports inevitably has to follow.
Let's not forget that people will most likely watch whatever game they are playing/interested in at the time. At the moment regular gamers are switching over to SC2 so once there's enough SC2 to watch they'll have to sacrifice the time they spent watching BW.
The manager however said that the new challenge will not be Starcraft 2. "It's not a decision he has made to play a different game", commenting that "He retired because he thought that he wouldn't be able to try anything else when he gets older. He'll probably start by catching up on his studying"
I'm not worried about BW anymore, viewership will most likely go up because of the controversy and possibility of last year of PL, which lures more sponsorship from big companies which means a good chance for revival for BW progaming. E-Sports is about the fans, and the fans want something exciting to watch. As of right now SC2 may be "fun" to play, it can't deliver 1/10 of the excitement BW can. Viewership will tell which game to invest in.
I don't wanna see BW die in a little cloud of pathetic smoke after its stripped of all it's players and teams, they should do some giant goodbye tournament for BW with all the best players, the late greats, the foreigners, one last time for a big tourny to give BW its proper goodbye. It would be awesome, tho extremely sad
Why can't those "already so rich that any gain from this doesn't change a thing in their lifestyle" people just stay out of bw and go greed somewhere else.
I really think that since SK is solely responsible for BW's success as an e-sport and there are already so many fans and professionals (players and otherwise) that a vast multitude of people with vested interest will fight tooth and nail to keep it around, despite Blizzard and Gretech and new SCII fans saying "surprise, here is the new game! You are not going to play that old one anymore, just this one!"
I can't imagine the death of all BW leagues within a season, let alone a year. I think KeSPA has a lot of shitty qualities, but Blizzard and Gretech are doing their best it seems to match them in that regard.
On October 14 2010 08:12 bjornkavist wrote: I don't wanna see BW die in a little cloud of pathetic smoke after its stripped of all it's players and teams, they should do some giant goodbye tournament for BW with all the best players, the late greats, the foreigners, one last time for a big tourny to give BW its proper goodbye. It would be awesome, tho extremely sad
As much as I hate the thought of BW dying, I would actually be great. At least a lot better than the WCG with less and less players every year.
On October 14 2010 08:00 Mintastic wrote: Let's not forget that people will most likely watch whatever game they are playing/interested in at the time. At the moment regular gamers are switching over to SC2 so once there's enough SC2 to watch they'll have to sacrifice the time they spent watching BW.
Also, SC2 is seriously fun to play
i believe that is a matter of opinion. i find it quite boring and dull i actually prefer warcraft 2/3 over sc2 at the moment, and BW still reigns supreme in gameplay. all sc2 has is pretty graphics and shiny new units
14. Former CJ Entus player Effort is currently playing SC2, but he only recently picked it up and didn't participate in GSL2 because he felt his skill isn't good enough yet."
If/When SC1 ends, the question of whether or not SC2 does well will definitely arise.
When that time comes, I hope at least SC2 will flourish and continue the legacy of SC1. If SC1 dies only to have SC2 flop, I think that would be a severe blow to e-sports, one that the scene may not recover from for a very long time.
You guys need to let brood war go, and this is coming from someone who plays terran for 12 years because of limyh. Let it go in peace... don't be an Uncle Rico with a time machine, you'll only get shocked..
I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
Yeah I guess SC2 isn't that much of a spectator sport, I guess we all tune into Day9 daily's, and root for TLO and Fruitdealer because anyone else can pull off the same stuff they do in the same fashion.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
Yeah but this would still lead to the failure of SC2...I don't want SC2 to fail.
Who I support really falls down to one thing,the success of GSL2.
Why?
because if GSL2 becomes a hit with many viewers(although it will have many of them anyways) it could lead to the success of SC2 and that means that if KeSPA were to win they would take up SC2.
heres to hoping GSL 2 will have better and higher level play that would make tastosis not sound like they've been cheated when they say "its so high level".
On October 14 2010 08:04 zenMaster wrote: I'm not worried about BW anymore, viewership will most likely go up because of the controversy and possibility of last year of PL, which lures more sponsorship from big companies which means a good chance for revival for BW progaming.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
Not to down play your capabilities, but I do think if you can master all those within a week, you should really go attempt for GSL3, since you will have solid chance. I will definitely cheer for you. (no sarcasm intended)
I personally think SC2 is kinda unexplored in the micro part yet. Currently it's more focus on decision making. Most wrong decisions I saw on VoD are saved only by micro and I think that's kinda cool. Your micro skills becomes your safety net.
I agree with you on the spectator sport opinion though. BW has given me a lot more shivering down the spine moments than SC2. I think the only time I was amazed was during the GSL1 finals, frustdealer's 3 way attack with bomblings. I am willing to give SC2 more time though, since I believe the current map pool is terrible for spectator sport.
It's hard to read all the BW fans ire at Blizzard and the whole IP rights deal. I feel for anyone losing something that they loved.
On the other hand, it is a blend of economic reasons that SC2 is getting propped up and BW is not being supported. Blizzard spent $100M plus developing a new game. They need to sell units because they're not charging us for bnet. That's all there is to it. There is not enough time in a day for all the fans of esports to support both games in Korea. SC2 has the potential to make far more money globally, than BW, which has a very closed and elite community.
Almost all the foreigner pros who were skeptical of SC2 for the same reasons stated in this thread have all retracted their opinions and think for the most part, the game is pretty darn great with the potential to be more great. In 2 months of release the metagame is far superior and deep to BW in the first 2 years of its lifetime.
So far i've not seen any proof that SC2 player are making nothing from their sponsors.
If the BW core fans really want BW to live on, they really have to put up their own money to do so because obviously companies are starting to pull away. It's the same for any sport. Fans have to support their teams by buying season tickets, memorabilia, cable subs, etc. If fan support evaporates, so does the sport. Of all the BW fans here, i'm sure there are a very few that have ever bought a BW team jacket, or gone to Korea to fill the stands, or contributed money in any shape or form to perpetuate the game they love. Unfortunately it's because most of us are students/non-professionals, but the fact still remains that without fan dollars globally input into BW, it will eventually die out, not because we really, really, really want it to live.
It's not really anyone's fault except for perhaps Kespa not wanting to negotiate for the simple head tilt, paltry sum lipservice it would have had to give Blizzard for the IP rights. They gambled and lost, just like anything else in the business world. Although there may be a chapter left to play in court, SC2 will eventually take over. The same thing will happen to SC2 in time, it's the nature of video games at this point.
On October 14 2010 16:35 cerebralz wrote: It's hard to read all the BW fans ire at Blizzard and the whole IP rights deal. I feel for anyone losing something that they loved.
On the other hand, it is a blend of economic reasons that SC2 is getting propped up and BW is not being supported. Blizzard spent $100M plus developing a new game. They need to sell units because they're not charging us for bnet. That's all there is to it. There is not enough time in a day for all the fans of esports to support both games in Korea. SC2 has the potential to make far more money globally, than BW, which has a very closed and elite community.
At first you got me there by thinking you are one of us and than you started talking about sc2 cost 100million in production bla blah blah..... and blizzard needs to sell their product . If your product is good as it's advertisement says why the extra worries of it not being able to flourish in the market why do you need to shut down Kespa ? Can't BW stand by side proudly with Sc2 ? It's a fact from the movement of blizzards and their proxy company gretech that they are trying to kill one of their prominent product which is BW. Sc2 has potential for YOUNGER GENERATION players because of its eye popping so called graphic . Any kids at the age of 12 or 15 will be going woohhhh so cool the graphic rocks and ignore's the game play of the game although it may be rubbish .
We are not elite mind you Blizzard in it self set a tough act to follow and we have absolute legitimate expectation for blizzard to produce such a product again and until than Sc2 can rage all the good qualities it has but it can never outshadow the glory of BW that has sewn its battle scars in the land of korea .
Almost all the foreigner pros who were skeptical of SC2 for the same reasons stated in this thread have all retracted their opinions and think for the most part, the game is pretty darn great with the potential to be more great. In 2 months of release the metagame is far superior and deep to BW in the first 2 years of its lifetime.
Says who ?
If the BW core fans really want BW to live on, they really have to put up their own money to do so because obviously companies are starting to pull away. It's the same for any sport. Fans have to support their teams by buying season tickets, memorabilia, cable subs, etc. If fan support evaporates, so does the sport. Of all the BW fans here, i'm sure there are a very few that have ever bought a BW team jacket, or gone to Korea to fill the stands, or contributed money in any shape or form to perpetuate the game they love. Unfortunately it's because most of us are students/non-professionals, but the fact still remains that without fan dollars globally input into BW, it will eventually die out, not because we really, really, really want it to live.
Isn't buying the game enough to show that you like that game ?????? You are telling us that BW only can continue its legacy by forking out our own money ? I don't think that's going to happen as you know the scene in korea what is required for you to be a fan ? Do you need to fork out money to watch open tournaments in SPL ????? It's all free of charge and I dont think any one sane would want to charge for a spectator sport that has been open to the public for 10 years....
For me a Fan is a person who doesn't need to buy pro gamers product to be a fan of their favourite teams all that matter is the willingness to cheer for your team although they are losing hence no special requirement needed . With all due respect I am not saying what you have brought it's wrong but you got to understand like you said in your first paragraph that is kind of hard to let go of something that you know so long as Bw to me it's like a good friend and killing it has the same effect of killing your old friend that you have know for many years .
If sc2 was really as great as it promise than compete it with the same standard as it has show KESPA that it can draw more players and viewers as blizzard is competitive as they are and not using cheap tactics that it is currently using .
Addressing rumors 3 and 6: Both MBC and OGN will broadcast proleague 5 days a week, just that OGN is changing the timing of their broadcast a bit that's why Kartrider is scheduled for 6.30pm on Tues.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
On the other hand, you're discussing how it took you a week to master something on the first discovery of how to do it. You're not comparing yourself to people that practiced it for 8 years to be dead on. Saying that a skillcap has already been reached is just ignorant, SC2 is going to continue to grow in depth.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
they can believe much... if they play it they know its not true
and srsly... this "argument" bw at start wasnt that great either is so freaking stupid... compare the RTS scene or pro scene when BW came out 2 the pro/RTS scene we have now. what do u think hm? now we have a freaking background of 10+ years of high level RTS.
On October 14 2010 16:35 cerebralz wrote: ... SC2 has the potential to make far more money globally, than BW, which has a very closed and elite community...
Not true, people just don't want to start playing because the curve is so high. Even when I started playing BW more than just versus computer or on East, I made a [H] thread in the strategy forum (sometime around autumn 2007) and everyone was more than willing to help. And people still are. So elite, maybe, but not closed. And BW players definitely want more BW players.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
No, he just says you cant already talk about SC2 as failure, its out only since half year. Time is on our side, be more patient.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
On October 13 2010 22:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:
People's expectations are high,I mean look at the amount of hype for the game.I just want people to stop looking at is as "oh its the sequel to the most awesome game in the world and it sucks because i doesn't live up to it" and try taking it as a new game.....
SC2 has potential its what we make of that potential,SCBW is right now a far better game but SC2 has only been explored very little in which is still only a third of the game.
What i'm trying to say is that don't take it as the "sequel to BW" rather as "StarCraft 2" which is a new game.
I thought you should read my post again.Yes you should see it as a new game based on old principles.We will figure it out if only we try instead of completely shutting it down.Some will give up,but others like our own team 'liquid are trying their best along with many other people to figure it out.
I'm not saying "just give it time bro" try taking action and make it a better game,everyone has to put in effort.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
People's expectations are high,I mean look at the amount of hype for the game.I just want people to stop looking at is as "oh its the sequel to the most awesome game in the world and it sucks because i doesn't live up to it" and try taking it as a new game.....
SC2 has potential its what we make of that potential,SCBW is right now a far better game but SC2 has only been explored very little in which is still only a third of the game.
What i'm trying to say is that don't take it as the "sequel to BW" rather as "StarCraft 2" which is a new game.
I thought you should read my post again.Yes you should see it as a new game based on old principles.We will figure it out if only we try instead of completely shutting it down.Some will give up,but others like our own team 'liquid are trying their best along with many other people to figure it out.
I'm not saying "just give it time bro" try taking action and make it a better game,everyone has to put in effort.
Why the hell are we trying to hard to make sc2 a better game when clearly BW already IS better. And if they don't want us to take it as "the sequel to BW", then don't fucking call it starcraft 2.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
On the other hand, you're discussing how it took you a week to master something on the first discovery of how to do it. You're not comparing yourself to people that practiced it for 8 years to be dead on. Saying that a skillcap has already been reached is just ignorant, SC2 is going to continue to grow in depth.
The whole point is that you couldn't master anything in 10 minutes. Whereas in SC2 micro, you basically can.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
On October 13 2010 22:46 BLinD-RawR wrote:
People's expectations are high,I mean look at the amount of hype for the game.I just want people to stop looking at is as "oh its the sequel to the most awesome game in the world and it sucks because i doesn't live up to it" and try taking it as a new game.....
SC2 has potential its what we make of that potential,SCBW is right now a far better game but SC2 has only been explored very little in which is still only a third of the game.
What i'm trying to say is that don't take it as the "sequel to BW" rather as "StarCraft 2" which is a new game.
I thought you should read my post again.Yes you should see it as a new game based on old principles.We will figure it out if only we try instead of completely shutting it down.Some will give up,but others like our own team 'liquid are trying their best along with many other people to figure it out.
I'm not saying "just give it time bro" try taking action and make it a better game,everyone has to put in effort.
Why the hell are we trying to hard to make sc2 a better game when clearly BW already IS better. And if they don't want us to take it as "the sequel to BW", then don't fucking call it starcraft 2.
IS => present tense.
my implication is of the future.
I'm saying your EXPECTATIONS of having the game to be as good as BW right from the start.Blizzard doesn't know shit about how BW became so good,but we do.
Why are we trying to make SC2 better?
Ask Day[9],TLO,Nony,HuK,Dimaga,White-Ra,BoxeR,NaDa,July.They have all switched to SC2.
If you want my opinion its because it unfortunately for you exists and it has every right to carry on the legacy of BW into the 3D generation.
Pretty sad news indeed. Very interesting to see the SC2 people in here bashing KeSPA and glorifying Blizzard, once again. Makes me wonder how they're gonna react when Blizzard decides to shut down B.net 2.0 and launch SCIII, a game they might not like. I, for one, am still completely indifferent about SC2. I can't see what's exciting about it at all. Please do enlighten me.
On October 15 2010 00:49 Woosung wrote: Pretty sad news indeed. Very interesting to see the SC2 people in here bashing KeSPA and glorifying Blizzard, once again. Makes me wonder how they're gonna react when Blizzard decides to shut down B.net 2.0 and launch SCIII, a game they might not like. I, for one, am still completely indifferent about SC2. I can't see what's exciting about it at all. Please do enlighten me.
You don't have to like SC2 to bash KeSPA. Look no further than Korean netizens.
Blizzard still runs B.net servers for SC1, WC2, and Diablo series. Two of those have sequels (SC2, WC3). They have not been shutdown yet.
On October 14 2010 11:45 Tazza wrote: I hope that more people will start to realize that although sc2 is fun, it is not as good a spectator sport as BW. I've never seen micro that amazed me in sc2, because I knew if I practiced for a week, I could do it. I thought reaper micro might be hard, but its really just move back, hold and move back, hold. I mastered it in like 30 minutes, even though i play zerg. On the other hand, it took me weeks to get a little better at sc1 muta micro, and its still very poor. Same thing with vultures and wraiths. Every time I see sc1, I just say, wow, I wish I could do that, or that looks freakin awesome!
What i would like to happen in the end is, that people move away from WATCHING, not playing sc2, and when the kids see the games, they realize BW is more exciting, and so, they see people like Jaedong or Flash as role models, and try to become sc1 progamers
You're right. I remember how perfect and inspiring it was to watch BW when it was 6 months old. It was super balanced and fair, and I could master everything in 10 minutes.
Several BW pros have stated in interviews that they believe SC2 will be more challenging than BW.
Sigh... I cant believe this outrageously stupid argument has not died yet. You say that as if sc2 was released like some kind of a new infant-like game in a new world where noone has ever heard of RTS and starcraft before... that is just not true. It's starcraft 2 - the successor of starcraft BW. We already have 10+ years of competitive RTS behind us. Or do you really mean sc2 is a c o m p l e t e l y different game that we are will figure out in like 10 years?
Its not gonna take as long for SC2 to reach the highest possible level as it did SC1, but its certainly going to take a lot longer than 2 months after release.
Not like WC3 games from the first two months are even close to being high calibre play when compared to todays games, and that game had the benefit of BW as well (tho to a lesser extent).
On October 15 2010 00:49 Woosung wrote: Pretty sad news indeed. Very interesting to see the SC2 people in here bashing KeSPA and glorifying Blizzard, once again. Makes me wonder how they're gonna react when Blizzard decides to shut down B.net 2.0 and launch SCIII, a game they might not like. I, for one, am still completely indifferent about SC2. I can't see what's exciting about it at all. Please do enlighten me.
You don't have to like SC2 to bash KeSPA. Look no further than Korean netizens.
Blizzard still runs B.net servers for SC1, WC2, and Diablo series. Two of those have sequels (SC2, WC3). They have not been shutdown yet.
Many Korean netizens will bash anything, even new born babies. Not a good counter.
On October 15 2010 00:49 Woosung wrote: Pretty sad news indeed. Very interesting to see the SC2 people in here bashing KeSPA and glorifying Blizzard, once again. Makes me wonder how they're gonna react when Blizzard decides to shut down B.net 2.0 and launch SCIII, a game they might not like. I, for one, am still completely indifferent about SC2. I can't see what's exciting about it at all. Please do enlighten me.
You don't have to like SC2 to bash KeSPA. Look no further than Korean netizens.
Blizzard still runs B.net servers for SC1, WC2, and Diablo series. Two of those have sequels (SC2, WC3). They have not been shutdown yet.
Many Korean netizens will bash anything, even new born babies. Not a good counter.
And many Team Liquidians will bash anything Blizzard says or does and apparently KeSPA can do no wrong. How is that any different? Both have done stuff that leaves something to be desired, but it need not be such a black and white thing. (I prefer to watch SC2 these days, but I've only played BW these last two months- poor student with a terrible computer.) People are capable of liking more than one thing at once and are capable of siding with Blizzard in one issue while recognizing the contribution of KeSPA.
Almost all the foreigner pros who were skeptical of SC2 for the same reasons stated in this thread have all retracted their opinions and think for the most part, the game is pretty darn great with the potential to be more great. In 2 months of release the metagame is far superior and deep to BW in the first 2 years of its lifetime.
Says who ?
Who were all the foreigners winning stuff the last few years? WhiteRa, Nony, Ret, Idra, Sen, Select. Everyone who has had a chance to go to Korea to compete, all changed to SC2. People who were skeptical: Tasteless, Day9, Incontrol, Artosis, etc. All changed their minds. When i listen to things like State of the game, i hear things like, it can be better than BW, it's strategically beautiful, and it's progressed far beyond BW in the same amount of time.
Isn't buying the game enough to show that you like that game ?????? You are telling us that BW only can continue its legacy by forking out our own money ? I don't think that's going to happen as you know the scene in korea what is required for you to be a fan ? Do you need to fork out money to watch open tournaments in SPL ????? It's all free of charge and I dont think any one sane would want to charge for a spectator sport that has been open to the public for 10 years....
Absolutely you need to continue to fork out money. That' is how the world goes round. I'm sorry if you are a student or other who doesn't have a disposable income. What you're saying is that for example, you expect your favorite restaurant to survive when everyone goes there to hang out and use the facilities but only buys food once...ever.
The reason why traditional sports continue? Is because they are largely fan supported. They buy tickets, go to the stadium, buy food, buy beer, buy merchandise, pay for parking, etc. Sure there are sponsors, but say, in the NFL or MLB, sponsors moreso are contributing to the cable network doing the broadcast and the stadium authority (aside from cases where the team owns the stadium and the cable network).
In this case, the GSL has a waaaaaay better chance of surviving the test of time as a business model, because it is fan supported with pay-per-view subs on a global scale. The current BW scene rests on the edge of a knife. As soon as one or more of the companies, which are supporting nearly 100% of the costs, decide to pull out, everything collapses. We always hear that there is a bit of a uncertainty about finding the next sponsor for say the OSL/MSL/PL. With the GSL being viewer supported to a greater degree than anything before it, companies will have more of an assurance that their investment will not go to waste on a short term stint. Furthermore, Gomtv/GSL brings in international dollars TO Korea, not just exchanging hands within the country. Before we go off that the Korean government will totally back Kespa, you forget that increased revenues internationally mean more taxes, and that always speaks volumes to politicians.
I think if Kespa wants to survive as well as the BW scene, they need to start acting more like a players UNION and not management. They need to guarantee salaries for all players based on longevity, including B-teamers, with guaranteed living conditions. Players also need representation to raise injunctions against their team management if they are mistreated. The BW players as a whole, need a collective bargaining contract with Kespa. That is the only thing that might make BW progaming more attractive. It's something that I hope becomes standard in SC2, as in all major sports have a players union.
Almost all the foreigner pros who were skeptical of SC2 for the same reasons stated in this thread have all retracted their opinions and think for the most part, the game is pretty darn great with the potential to be more great. In 2 months of release the metagame is far superior and deep to BW in the first 2 years of its lifetime.
Says who ?
Who were all the foreigners winning stuff the last few years? WhiteRa, Nony, Ret, Idra, Sen, Select. Everyone who has had a chance to go to Korea to compete, all changed to SC2. People who were skeptical: Tasteless, Day9, Incontrol, Artosis, etc. All changed their minds. When i listen to things like State of the game, i hear things like, it can be better than BW, it's strategically beautiful, and it's progressed far beyond BW in the same amount of time.
Isn't buying the game enough to show that you like that game ?????? You are telling us that BW only can continue its legacy by forking out our own money ? I don't think that's going to happen as you know the scene in korea what is required for you to be a fan ? Do you need to fork out money to watch open tournaments in SPL ????? It's all free of charge and I dont think any one sane would want to charge for a spectator sport that has been open to the public for 10 years....
Absolutely you need to continue to fork out money. That' is how the world goes round. I'm sorry if you are a student or other who doesn't have a disposable income. What you're saying is that for example, you expect your favorite restaurant to survive when everyone goes there to hang out and use the facilities but only buys food once...ever.
The reason why traditional sports continue? Is because they are largely fan supported. They buy tickets, go to the stadium, buy food, buy beer, buy merchandise, pay for parking, etc. Sure there are sponsors, but say, in the NFL or MLB, sponsors moreso are contributing to the cable network doing the broadcast and the stadium authority (aside from cases where the team owns the stadium and the cable network).
In this case, the GSL has a waaaaaay better chance of surviving the test of time as a business model, because it is fan supported with pay-per-view subs on a global scale. The current BW scene rests on the edge of a knife. As soon as one or more of the companies, which are supporting nearly 100% of the costs, decide to pull out, everything collapses. We always hear that there is a bit of a uncertainty about finding the next sponsor for say the OSL/MSL/PL. With the GSL being viewer supported to a greater degree than anything before it, companies will have more of an assurance that their investment will not go to waste on a short term stint. Furthermore, Gomtv/GSL brings in international dollars TO Korea, not just exchanging hands within the country. Before we go off that the Korean government will totally back Kespa, you forget that increased revenues internationally mean more taxes, and that always speaks volumes to politicians.
I think if Kespa wants to survive as well as the BW scene, they need to start acting more like a players UNION and not management. They need to guarantee salaries for all players based on longevity, including B-teamers, with guaranteed living conditions. Players also need representation to raise injunctions against their team management if they are mistreated. The BW players as a whole, need a collective bargaining contract with Kespa. That is the only thing that might make BW progaming more attractive. It's something that I hope becomes standard in SC2, as in all major sports have a players union.
Reading this almost changed my mind about BW E-Sports being better than SC2 E-Sports. ALMOST.
On October 15 2010 00:49 Woosung wrote: Pretty sad news indeed. Very interesting to see the SC2 people in here bashing KeSPA and glorifying Blizzard, once again. Makes me wonder how they're gonna react when Blizzard decides to shut down B.net 2.0 and launch SCIII, a game they might not like. I, for one, am still completely indifferent about SC2. I can't see what's exciting about it at all. Please do enlighten me.
You don't have to like SC2 to bash KeSPA. Look no further than Korean netizens.
Blizzard still runs B.net servers for SC1, WC2, and Diablo series. Two of those have sequels (SC2, WC3). They have not been shutdown yet.
Many Korean netizens will bash anything, even new born babies. Not a good counter.
And many Team Liquidians will bash anything Blizzard says or does and apparently KeSPA can do no wrong. How is that any different? Both have done stuff that leaves something to be desired, but it need not be such a black and white thing. (I prefer to watch SC2 these days, but I've only played BW these last two months- poor student with a terrible computer.) People are capable of liking more than one thing at once and are capable of siding with Blizzard in one issue while recognizing the contribution of KeSPA.
If you read their posts carefully, most pple aren't denying that Kespa has made many stupid decisions but pple are siding with Kespa because they want to see the continuation of the BW proscene and Blizzard is standing in the way of that.
On October 15 2010 04:20 StorkHwaiting wrote: Yeaaaah! Progress is at hand! I want to see Stork in SC2 sooo bad. It's too bad there's no fking reavers in SC2 -_-
On October 15 2010 04:20 StorkHwaiting wrote: Yeaaaah! Progress is at hand! I want to see Stork in SC2 sooo bad. It's too bad there's no fking reavers in SC2 -_-
Well maybe with this void ray nerf we will start to see some carriers
If Kespa would have negotiated with Blizzard from the start this wouldn't have been this ugly. Kespa was the problem from the start. I don't get why so many people hate Blizzard for this, they didn't ask for much.
On October 15 2010 02:12 cerebralz wrote: Who were all the foreigners winning stuff the last few years? WhiteRa, Nony, Ret, Idra, Sen, Select. Everyone who has had a chance to go to Korea to compete, all changed to SC2. People who were skeptical: Tasteless, Day9, Incontrol, Artosis, etc. All changed their minds. When i listen to things like State of the game, i hear things like, it can be better than BW, it's strategically beautiful, and it's progressed far beyond BW in the same amount of time.
How exactly is evolving at a quicker rate an advantage for the game though?
You also have to take into account the various personal interests (whether professional or not) most of these people you mention have for SC2. Everyone's favorite caster wants to get esports moving in the west, Tasteless/Artosis can finally start being full-time gamecasters for a kind of game they love and have a lot of experience in, while IdrA/ret/etc want to (attempt to) make a living off it. (Etc. etc.)
I don't mean it like all of them actually try to convince themselves when they give that much credit to SC2 and its future but that's probably just as much what they hope happen than what they predict. The game is good and popular enough already for these hopes to be more than reasonable, though.
On October 15 2010 02:12 cerebralz wrote: Who were all the foreigners winning stuff the last few years? WhiteRa, Nony, Ret, Idra, Sen, Select. Everyone who has had a chance to go to Korea to compete, all changed to SC2. People who were skeptical: Tasteless, Day9, Incontrol, Artosis, etc. All changed their minds. When i listen to things like State of the game, i hear things like, it can be better than BW, it's strategically beautiful, and it's progressed far beyond BW in the same amount of time.
How exactly is evolving at a quicker rate an advantage for the game though?
You also have to take into account the various personal interests (whether professional or not) most of these people you mention have for SC2. Everyone's favorite caster wants to get esports moving in the west, Tasteless/Artosis can finally start being full-time gamecasters for a kind of game they love and have a lot of experience in, while IdrA/ret/etc want to (attempt to) make a living off it. (Etc. etc.)
I don't mean it like all of them actually try to convince themselves when they give that much credit to SC2 and its future but that's probably just as much what they hope happen than what they predict. The game is good and popular enough already for these hopes to be more than reasonable, though.
I do appreciate that this is a reasonably stated argument, but I've never quite understood this argument. How many gamers switching to SC2 would it take for us to stop suspecting their motivations, beyond the foreigners we now have Boxer, Nada, Julyzerg, etc that have joined. What would convince a person that they are doing it for the competition and that it's fun? How many would have to switch and for how long?
I've heard much more extreme statements along these lines- that the foreigners have only joined because they have a shot at SC2 even though they know the game sucks. But after awhile it just seems like character assassination.
Could not a similar argument be leveled at the SC2 naysayers, who by and large seem to come from the B and C levels in iCCUP? (Misrah comes to mind.) Could it be that they're simply mad that they've put so much effort into the game and now they have no chance to prove themselves because the top echelons of iCCUP is moving on? I don't think this is the case, but if we're speculating on motivations of the top foreigners, why stop there? Why not assign nefarious motivations to the naysayers?
Again, your particular post is reasonably stated, but I've heard this line of argument by far more aggressive posters before.
On October 15 2010 06:43 Falling wrote: I do appreciate that this is a reasonably stated argument, but I've never quite understood this argument. How many gamers switching to SC2 would it take for us to stop suspecting their motivations, beyond the foreigners we now have Boxer, Nada, Julyzerg, etc that have joined. What would convince a person that they are doing it for the competition and that it's fun? How many would have to switch and for how long?
Well that wasn't my point--I have absolutely 0 doubt in my mind that these players, or at least most of them, have switched "for the competition and because it's fun". But that's not at all incompatible with (as persons, or even as a community) wanting to achieve something with that game that was harder to achieve in SC1. Hoping things turn out as well as possible (aka SC2 getting huge and even bigger/better than BW) makes obvious sense as it would render the said achievements most meaningful.
In short, anyone with a goal related to a product like SC2 is, to some extent, naturally going to try and convince themselves and others that it's "worth it". That's just basic psychology. And that doesn't mean at all that they don't love the game or find it amazing in the first place.
On October 15 2010 06:21 gm.tOSS wrote: If Kespa would have negotiated with Blizzard from the start this wouldn't have been this ugly. Kespa was the problem from the start. I don't get why so many people hate Blizzard for this, they didn't ask for much.
Oh okay...
...Wait what?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA"
You're saying this isn't much to ask for? Okay then, can you please tell me what your definition of much is?
On October 15 2010 08:48 champignones wrote: "As I was your beginning - so shall I be... your end." - Dark Voice about scbw PRO scene
"Behold my greatest creation." - Dark Voice about starcraft....2?
"Behold 1/3 of my greatest creation."? Still don't think so though, unless you're one of those people still insisting on Counter-Strike: Source's superiority over Counter-Strike 1.6, which is pretty non-existant.
Edit: That's sorta why I'm really uneasy about this whole situation. See what happened to that game? No-one except some americans even play that game anymore. The 1.6-scene was able to keep itself alive, mostly because of European teams and sponsors. Imagine if Valve/Steam managed to shut the whole thing down just after launching CS:S... Makes me wonder what game the FPSers would play today. They'd surely lose a lot of the general eSport-interest...
Edit2: Oh yeah, and they don't have to contact Valve prior to making any tournament. Nor do they have to give up the right to the demos.
The top foreigners switched because they couldn't compete at the highest levels of BW simple as that, and of course Day9/Tasteless and all the rest of them act very positive about the game it's in their interest to. Not that they think the game sucks but its pretty blatant whats happening, any question to these people about comparison to BW they avoid it completely. Just give the same things we've heard constantly 'It'll take time', even though all evidence points to stagnation and a skill cap reached far quicker than BW. But when you have someone whos more honest like Morrow they have some negative opinions about the game and its long-term potential.
Just because people switched games to get in their early doesn't give any indication of if it will be a long term healthy eSports. To be brutally honest in fact i think you will see people coming back from Korea soon when they realize they can't compete with dedicated B-Teamer level Koreans, and hardly any foreigners at the top tournaments leaving them just to the foreigner tournaments yet again.
On October 15 2010 10:08 infinity2k9 wrote: The top foreigners switched because they couldn't compete at the highest levels of BW simple as that, and of course Day9/Tasteless and all the rest of them act very positive about the game it's in their interest to. Not that they think the game sucks but its pretty blatant whats happening, any question to these people about comparison to BW they avoid it completely. Just give the same things we've heard constantly 'It'll take time', even though all evidence points to stagnation and a skill cap reached far quicker than BW. But when you have someone whos more honest like Morrow they have some negative opinions about the game and its long-term potential.
There was a very negative post by an oldschool BW gamer in regards to SC2, complaining about the simplified mechanics and just lack of interesting features. It was pretty hyperbolic, but MorroW posted in the thread said he agreed with most of it. It was a recent thread i can't find it now though.
In the case of foreigners not being able to sustain their success in Korea, the setup in SC2 lends itself much more to the rest of the world still having a bustling esports scene. Organizations like MLG and IEM are some which can help invigorate the community. Dimaga has already said that he would prefer not to go to Korea to compete, even if he was sponsored to do so. This lends to the belief that the EU scene has enough going on to support his interests.
In fact, the slightly lower learning curve and mechanical prowess needed to win, which are reviled aspects of SC2 by the core BW fans, probably ensures that this won't happen and there will continue to be competitive foreigners in Korea for years to come. As long as people have quick minds as well as hands, as well as a brilliant map-making community, the game will probably do well in the future. That is still only conjecture though. Like anything else electronic or tech based, there can always come something else to replace it in a snap.
On October 15 2010 10:33 infinity2k9 wrote: There was a very negative post by an oldschool BW gamer in regards to SC2, complaining about the simplified mechanics and just lack of interesting features. It was pretty hyperbolic, but MorroW posted in the thread said he agreed with most of it. It was a recent thread i can't find it now though.
On October 15 2010 10:08 infinity2k9 wrote:But when you have someone whos more honest like Morrow they have some negative opinions about the game and its long-term potential.
If you are going to quote arguments that sc2 will fail because 'it isn't mechanically complicated enough', you should probably take them from the old bw coaches over some angsty euro teen having a hissy fit.
On October 15 2010 10:33 infinity2k9 wrote: There was a very negative post by an oldschool BW gamer in regards to SC2, complaining about the simplified mechanics and just lack of interesting features. It was pretty hyperbolic, but MorroW posted in the thread said he agreed with most of it. It was a recent thread i can't find it now though.
Funny, since I believe Nada said that the game was harder in many ways, just a few days ago.
That is subjective. It is better to compare the gap in skill between Nada and top BW players and the top SC2 players. Which one do you think is larger?
I have a feeling there is going to be an important development this weekend involving proleague and it might not be good. Some rumors on the Korean forums. Could be nothing, hopefully nothing.
On October 16 2010 12:30 Kralic wrote: I have a feeling there is going to be an important development this weekend involving proleague and it might not be good. Some rumors on the Korean forums. Could be nothing, hopefully nothing.
On October 16 2010 12:30 Kralic wrote: I have a feeling there is going to be an important development this weekend involving proleague and it might not be good. Some rumors on the Korean forums. Could be nothing, hopefully nothing.
Spill it out boy, no use leaving us hanging here.
Something about opening night of pro league. I am not too sure my korean is very poor.
On October 16 2010 12:30 Kralic wrote: I have a feeling there is going to be an important development this weekend involving proleague and it might not be good. Some rumors on the Korean forums. Could be nothing, hopefully nothing.
Spill it out boy, no use leaving us hanging here.
Something about opening night of pro league. I am not too sure my korean is very poor.