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Hey guys,
I've been playing SC2 since release, was a fairly high ranked Diamond Protoss for most of the time, haven't played a whole lot since the Master's League patch and recently I've been watching a lot of old Tasteless/Artosis commented Brood War VODs, and it looks like an absolute ton of fun. I love SC2, but I never got to play seriously in BW and I'd like to try it out.
I've recently played a few games against the computer and its actually kind of crazy how much better I am at the game than I remember being (prior to SC2), simply due to playing SC2 for that length of time and knowing things about basic macro that I just didn't before.
Ok, long-winded and pointless intro aside, I need some advice. What is the best way to go about beginning to play SC:BW in a serious way, the same way you ladder seriously in SC2? Should I get on iCCup straightaway, arm myself with a basic build order that sort of works well against all three matchups (I was thinking of 12 Nexus as Protoss, any suggestions on that front would be welcome) and just jump straight in? or should I spend some time on the "official" SC:BW servers before jumping into iCCup?
Or would it be even better to just not bother until a new iCCup season and jump in then when everyone's reset?
Would appreciate any input, and also any information on how to actually get set up on iCCup (although I'm sure there is setup guides out there so if there is, just ignore this and I'll find them on my own)
thanks
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There is no basic build order that works well against all 3 matchups. You have to watch progames and study replays to gain understanding of the 3 matchups for the race you pick.
You mention 12nexus as protoss--FE as protoss is possible in each protoss matchup, but there are unique touches to each one (forge FE in PvZ, and the followup in PvP is different than the followup in PvT--read smi.Frozen's guide to FE PvP in the TL.net strategy section)
Start iCCup NOW--once everyone is reset you'll be facing total gosus at D level who'll stomp you and it'll make things WAY harder for you than they need to be at this stage in your BW learning.
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On January 30 2011 16:07 xxpack09 wrote: There is no basic build order that works well against all 3 matchups. You have to watch progames and study replays to gain understanding of the 3 matchups for the race you pick.
You mention 12nexus as protoss--FE as protoss is possible in each protoss matchup, but there are unique touches to each one (forge FE in PvZ, and the followup in PvP is different than the followup in PvT--read smi.Frozen's guide to FE PvP in the TL.net strategy section)
Start iCCup NOW--once everyone is reset you'll be facing total gosus at D level who'll stomp you and it'll make things WAY harder for you than they need to be at this stage in your BW learning.
Oh, absolutely, I know that ultimately I'm going to need several different build orders for each matchup, and a different style of play for each one, but I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race (similar to the way that a 4gate in Starcraft 2 is acceptably good against each race) while I get used to the interface and macro-mechanic differences in Brood War, then after 20-30 games I can start branching out and using different things.
I've read through the first few pages of the BW forum but haven't really found any "generic" Protoss builds, everything seems to have its place in a specific matchup. Is that simply due to SC:BW being such a relatively explored game compared to SC2, or is it the nature of the game different to SC2 that there isn't really a generic build order that "sort of works" against most things".
I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Just as an example.
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Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated.
Learn A build order for every MU
if you are P
4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand
On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest
And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army.
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There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2: 1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think) 2. keep idle workers at a minimum 3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them 4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!! BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe
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Macro is way harder in scbw and you will battle the interface for a long time. Don't expect rising up the ICCUP ranks as fast as in sc2, you will be D forever :D
If you are really serious about this then you just need a lot of stamina and you will be fine
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go to liquipedia.net to learn the basic builds for protoss. each match up dffers from each other but PvT and PvP have slight similarity at the early stages. PvZ is however, an entirely different MU from the 2.
even though you may have been a high ranked protoss on sc2, expect to be beaten left right and centre in iccup. the skill level currently is much higher than it was before sc2 came out. there's also alot of smurfs out there so don't be too discouraged.
i would think going iccup now is a better choice since we are a few weeks into the season anf the more higher ranked guys are out of the d player pool. it would be a common thing to meet b players in the d pool when the season just resetted.
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On January 30 2011 16:13 wussleeQ wrote:There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2: 1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think) 2. keep idle workers at a minimum 3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them 4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!! BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe
This is all fantastic advice. Basically confirms what I thought, that I need to focus on my solid macro the same way you do in SC2.
Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Or do you just leave the rally at default at the base of the Nexus and get them from there?
All of the other posts above are fantastic too, thank you all so much.
I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings.
One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2.
All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
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I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup.
edit: imo you should not 2gate every game because that is not a stable strategy. also forge FE is the standard for PvZ.
I know you would like things to be simple but the hard truth is that they're not and you're just going to have to do some work and learn things if you want to improve. That is why I would recommend sticking to one matchup; you will learn a lot quicker if you are focusing on 1 matchup rather than all 3, and as a result your mechanics will improve faster.
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On January 30 2011 16:20 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup.
Actually this is a good point too, ladder in iCCup works differently to SC2, there's no automated matchmaking so you just look for custom games created with certain titles that suit the game you're looking for, correct?
If so I suppose I could just say, focus on PvZ and always look for Zergs to play against rather than joining games made by Protoss or Terran players?
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings.
2 gate is supposed to either kill you opponent early or do enough damage to tech and kill him later.
On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:
One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2.
Forge FE is the standart for ZvP if you to get in a good shape in the mid game (assuming your 2 gate gets deflected). Beware of Hydras busts. Hydras are insanely strong here.
On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
YOu are welcome
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On January 30 2011 16:22 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:20 Crunchums wrote:I was hoping there was sort of a generic build that I could use that was "acceptable" against each race Outside of cheeses, no such builds exist in BW. My advice would be to pick one matchup and one map and try to learn that. If you don't want to do that then learn a standardish build for each matchup. Actually this is a good point too, ladder in iCCup works differently to SC2, there's no automated matchmaking so you just look for custom games created with certain titles that suit the game you're looking for, correct? If so I suppose I could just say, focus on PvZ and always look for Zergs to play against rather than joining games made by Protoss or Terran players? Yeah sure, but rather than laddering Iccup I would recommend you try and find practice partners because if you try to ladder only one matchup you will spend a lot of time trying to find games.
edit: btw the channel on iccup is "op teamliquid"
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On January 30 2011 16:14 TehForce wrote: Macro is way harder in scbw and you will battle the interface for a long time. Don't expect rising up the ICCUP ranks as fast as in sc2, you will be D forever :D
This. And don't get discouraged of it. I used to play on PGtour and was a stable C- player after spending A LOT of time playing(bought the game when it first came out). In SC2 I got top diamond after 3 weeks where I had a lot of stuff to do at school, so I couldn't play that much. Yes, I know this can't be compared and stuff, but the point is that it might be satisfying to see yourself climbing the ladder faster in SC2, but trust me, when you get one better rank in BW, it feels thousand times as good! Just keep on playing!
Also, check Liquipedia for build orders and timings.
Welcome to BW :D
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Thanks again for all the help everyone. Please do continue posting your thoughts and opinions and anything that could help.
I have no idea if I'll stick with BW, maybe I'll play a handful of games, decide that I like the easier interface too much in SC2 and just go back to the other game, but I hope I'll have the dedication to stick with it and I believe I can, so I hope to see you all in the BW Strategy forum soon with my observations and replays.
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:13 wussleeQ wrote:There are many matchups BOs so, use liquipedia for help there. You'll probably get shitted on in ICC for a while but it'd be best to just try and game on there and lose a lot (you only get better by playing those better than you). Watch replays of some pros and imitate their things. Watch your own replays to see what you did wrong. Follow these basic rules which you should have known from SC2: 1. Build lots of miners (a bit more than in sc2 i think) 2. keep idle workers at a minimum 3. queue as little units as possible when macroing but don't build so many production facilities so that you can't support them 4. macro will beat most players at low level when you're at D level I don't know if these are rules but they are pretty helpful tips Work on things such as map awareness also as there will be a lot more going on at a time in BW That's all i can come up with for now but GOOD LUCK !!! BW is a great competitive game and hope you go A+ rank hehe This is all fantastic advice. Basically confirms what I thought, that I need to focus on my solid macro the same way you do in SC2. Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Or do you just leave the rally at default at the base of the Nexus and get them from there? All of the other posts above are fantastic too, thank you all so much. I think my game plan will simply be to go 2gate aggression for the first few games, sound out my opponents a bit and then maybe try to incorporate some +1 timings. One thing I should check first - I believe a Forge FE is very 100% viable in BW PvZ, where it isn't really in SC2 due to the power of the Roach. Is this correct? I always liked the idea of the Forge FE and always disappointed that it doesn't work very well in SC2. All of the posts above are also fantastic advice (but could only really quote and directly address one ), thank you all so much.
It doesnt really matter where you rally your workers to, if you select a bunch of workers when trying to select the one that just finished you can hold shift and click the mineral. That way the other workers wont stop mining but the new one will start.
As for builds you should probably do 2 gate goon range or 2 gate observer builds in PvP and PvT as they are extremely safe and can allow a bit of early aggression.
In PvZ the standard is forge FE. Just try and do standard Corsair/DT or a 2 gate speedlot timing attack. Do NOT try Corsair/Reaver.
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On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army.
Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of. Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;;
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On January 30 2011 16:37 Snipinpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army. Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of. Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;;
Because 12 nexus imba.. 10/15 gate just sounds more badass too Throw me a PM if you want to watch/play a game
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On January 30 2011 17:06 Xenocide_Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:37 Snipinpanda wrote:On January 30 2011 16:12 Mortician wrote:Dont start when the ladder resets, as the guy above me stated. Learn A build order for every MU if you are P 4 gate 2 archon PvZ 10/15 PvT and I can't help you with PvP, probably reaver on ground expand On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me who can tell me what I should be focusing on, for example someone who can say "the equivalent of the 9pylon/13gate/15gas/17 cybercore from SC2 is XPylon Xgate in BW.
Well, you can go 2 gate pressure every MU, but most of the time you will lose, since people even in the D ranks are good at stopping cheese, because D ranks are cheese fest And do not micro, just A move and focus on building your next army. Er, why 10/15 gate PvT? It's not very good on certain maps and it's hard to transition out of. Why not something like 1 gate core or 12 nex >_>;; Because 12 nexus imba.. 10/15 gate just sounds more badass too Throw me a PM if you want to watch/play a game
Isn't that more reason to learn 12 nex?! lol, I don't even know why I'm suggesting it, since I'm a T player >.<
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the things you need to learn first:
keep up worker production and make them mine (its very hard to learn their que timing)
keep practicing 1 build order until you know it, and when i say you gotta know the BO, you have to understand the timing and know whenever to do what. Too many new players which i have seen, having too many units idling, because of not knowing their que timing enough.
since you cannot hotkey all factories/barracks to 1 hotkey, you have to work on the macro as well, micro and macromanagement at the same time in BW is just 100times harder than in SC2, thats why most players are focusing on macro alone, and i think thats fine for you @ beginning.
i think these 3 things i mentioned should be every new players standard procedure. As the other guys mentioned above regarding ICCUP, you will and i guarentee, you will lose 70% of your games, but practice makes you a master, so dont give up!
good luck
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10387 Posts
Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE
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On January 30 2011 17:46 ArvickHero wrote: Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE wtf even i have a hard time managing that in PvT just go 12nex in PvT because it does you wonders. If the map is rampless, open 10/15 because that does you wonders too. 1gate obs is weak shit in PvT. FD has a pretty good probability of raping you facefront and doesnt let you expand early if you micro poorly. oh and 2fact rapes it ez so yea go 12nex ;;
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10387 Posts
On January 30 2011 19:09 Kenpachi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 17:46 ArvickHero wrote: Fundamentally SC2 and BW are very similar, you just need to gain the extra apm to deal w/ BW's interface constraints. For that, I recommend a multitask map or practice against computers to get your mechanics up par
In PvZ you can go 2 gate +1 Speedlot, since that's the standard. You need to be wary against Zerg cheese and scout well (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16)
In PvP, you can go 1 gate obs and you'll be fine for the most part, but learning other builds in the matchup is really useful. Just remember to expand as soon as you can and get 6 gateways and templar tech after you get your nat
In PvT, you should expand after 3 dragoons, or after Robo if you want to play it safe (off of 1 gate). Grab a third quickly and tech fast to either Arbs or Templar and add a lot of gaaaaaaatess
also I'm drunk as hell so I can't really give indepth advice
OH YEA WATCH A LOT OF VODS ANALYTICALLY SO YOU CAN LEARN GAMESENSE wtf even i have a hard time managing that in PvT just go 12nex in PvT because it does you wonders. If the map is rampless, open 10/15 because that does you wonders too. mehh imo 12 Nexus is something you should abuse after you learn the standard PvT build, and I don't like how 12 nex is autolose vs BBS (something kinda common on ladderrr). By learning 1 gate range-expand/range-robo-expand play and learning to micro well against any early attacks, it gives a stronger fundamental for your PvT.
goddammit I have a headache -___-
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On January 30 2011 16:02 Dhalphir wrote: Or would it be even better to just not bother until a new iCCup season and jump in then when everyone's reset?
That's a horrible idea unless you want to go 0-100 in your first 100 games
Anyway, here's a few tips from me:
1. Practice only 1 map, 1 build in only one match-up. This is the fastest & the best way to improve.
2. Join Teamliquid Layman Squad I'll be happy to practice with you if you want me to, i like to offrace too.
3. Start using f2, f3, and f4 for expansions, it helps a TON and i dont think this is implemented in sc2.
4. Never ever stop producing workers
5. Liquipedia. That is all.
6. Focus on macro, fancy micro is useless in D levels.
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Well I played my first game tonight, against a D Terran player on Blue Storm.
I didn't really have a solid build order yet, I vaguely had an idea of going for fast dragoons with range in case the Terran went heavy vultures but I forgot about spider mines and they caught me off guard without enough observers.
I expanded too late and didn't have enough gateways (the interface is like wading through thick mud at times!) but I enjoyed myself.
Here's the replay if anyone feels like watching a terrible player get owned. I'd love some critique beyond what I already pointed out myself.
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Cool to see you playing man, broodwar is so awesome... but playing the computer gets really dry for me... my favorite thing is just to make up my own strategies sometimes and build of that until it starts working, really good way to learn. Also vods are awesome, but replays are really really good... there's so many skill levels to this game, I remember how I used to watch Savior's games and be impressed with his management... writing down his exact spire timing etc... not really necesarry for me now... but yeah, there's lots of graduations to higher levels I think... Plus I really love the dynamics of the different races...
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Just read through the other posts and yeah, I'm protoss too man. I really like to be creative, I dunno; also carriers are awesome, trust me I'm 26 , psi storm and carriers are nearly-imba imo
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On January 30 2011 19:43 Dhalphir wrote:Well I played my first game tonight, against a D Terran player on Blue Storm. here's the main points i think you should focus on for now:
1- you wanna be using this BO almost every game against T when not fast expanding: pylon, gate, assimilator, core, pylon (or pylon-core if you will make a zealot) 2- your main unit early on is the dragoon, you dont need more than 1 zealot unless they are cheesing (2 barrack rush, very rare) 3- make the range upgrade on the core asap if you are going 2 gate goons, otherwise they are almost useless... actually make that even if going just 1 gate robo 4- you should avoid playing blue storm for now, its a confusing map for newbies because of how it affects unit AI, it requires you to route dragoons manually around the small entrance, which is why your first goon was going around your base 5- you generally only need 3 probes on the gas, except when the gas is further away than normal (you dont see this on recent pro maps like blue storm)
there's more but you should just focus on getting these basic things right for now
i recommend that you go 2 gate ranged goon into expansion and then add robo and obs asap, this is a good build that will get you easy wins against people who cant micro their vultures well
focus on finding places to attack from, learn to win, then with time the better players will punish your mistakes and you will fix them
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Remember to post in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173905
Also, we can start to play if you want! I'm recently switching from protoss to zerg, and I've never played zerg before(except campaign), so I suck pretty much! Then you can practice PvZ and I can practice ZvP, and we can become masters at it
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Croatia9365 Posts
Here's a good advice from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186958
On January 23 2011 23:38 Soulforged wrote:This season, on my way to ~C+, I doubt I met what I'd consider a less-than-C ranked player more than a couple times - in ~30 games. Feels like with SC2, the lower tier players mostly dissapeared; or it could be just the timezone(koreans durr hurr). Saw nearly no players below 180 apm . Anyhow, iccup's not your best bet for starting out - that is, if you care even a bit about losing consistantly. I've wrote this before, but this should be a good way to progress for a total beginner player: 1)Play AI. If you can beat 3 alone, without abusing static defense beyond the 1st attack(sunken/lurk, cannons, lots of tanks, etc), you're set to go online. Seeing as you have decent mechanics already you probably can skip this step. 2)Play on U.S.East. That's the weakest official server, if you stick to "1vs1 Python noobs" games, aside from occasional smurf, you'll be mostly getting players who don't even use hotkeys well, in 100-150 apm ranges. Have >50% win rate? Drop the "noobs" from the game title. 3)Still have >50% win rate? Add "good" to game title. Go on to Europe or U.S.West. Play other maps; for example, on Destination or Fighting Spirit on public b.net you'll meet players stronger than on Python. Now, I can't really tell about West, but Europe public games should range from D- to C- in skill level. 4)After having a decent win rate at previous stage, you totally can go on to iccup and get to ~C- without much trouble. Or you could stay on official servers and play some play/obs - it's kind of a lottery from D- to C+, though. Better off going straight to iccup. Figure out where you are on this list, and continiue from there. Or you could stay on iccup, meet some fellow tl.net beginners, and practice with them, etc. Just remember that playing people who demolish you has both advantages and disadvantages: your gameplay will be crisp(as they kill you for first mistake), but your motivation could go down, fear, thinking it's impossible, etc.
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On January 30 2011 21:09 2Pacalypse- wrote:Here's a good advice from this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=186958Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 23:38 Soulforged wrote:This season, on my way to ~C+, I doubt I met what I'd consider a less-than-C ranked player more than a couple times - in ~30 games. Feels like with SC2, the lower tier players mostly dissapeared; or it could be just the timezone(koreans durr hurr). Saw nearly no players below 180 apm . Anyhow, iccup's not your best bet for starting out - that is, if you care even a bit about losing consistantly. I've wrote this before, but this should be a good way to progress for a total beginner player: 1)Play AI. If you can beat 3 alone, without abusing static defense beyond the 1st attack(sunken/lurk, cannons, lots of tanks, etc), you're set to go online. Seeing as you have decent mechanics already you probably can skip this step. 2)Play on U.S.East. That's the weakest official server, if you stick to "1vs1 Python noobs" games, aside from occasional smurf, you'll be mostly getting players who don't even use hotkeys well, in 100-150 apm ranges. Have >50% win rate? Drop the "noobs" from the game title. 3)Still have >50% win rate? Add "good" to game title. Go on to Europe or U.S.West. Play other maps; for example, on Destination or Fighting Spirit on public b.net you'll meet players stronger than on Python. Now, I can't really tell about West, but Europe public games should range from D- to C- in skill level. 4)After having a decent win rate at previous stage, you totally can go on to iccup and get to ~C- without much trouble. Or you could stay on official servers and play some play/obs - it's kind of a lottery from D- to C+, though. Better off going straight to iccup. Figure out where you are on this list, and continiue from there. Or you could stay on iccup, meet some fellow tl.net beginners, and practice with them, etc. Just remember that playing people who demolish you has both advantages and disadvantages: your gameplay will be crisp(as they kill you for first mistake), but your motivation could go down, fear, thinking it's impossible, etc.
Playing on battle.net is horrible though, I mean, extra high latency on iccup = low latency on bnet.
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On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected.
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I would recommend playing on the more popular maps such as FS, Python, and Destination. I wouldn't know about playing on B.net. You'd want to play against someone who actually knows what a BO is, don't you?
Also, if you wanna feel extra cautious, you can avoid any "D" players that come from Korea (marked with [KR]) .
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I played another game just now. Another PvT.
Got smashed again.
Any advice this time? I stayed away from zealots, expanded earlier and went for just dragoons with +1 weapons. I was a bit late on my observers but wasn't really sure if that mattered since he didnt seem too mine-happy.
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This has been my process so far.
1) Play lots of games vs A.I. when you're downloading/torrenting stuff etc, just to get your fingers/mind used to the game. 2) Find a general build on Liquipedia for a matchup i.e. 1 rax FE TvZ. 3) Create a game on iccup 'D-/E TvZ, you Z' 4) Play that matchup until you're decent 5) Go back to 2
Also, playing full screen at 4:3 really seems to help with game sounds, no music. And download the mousefix, I think I got it from a Day9 thread. It's worth getting your mouse settings right.
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Hey I just watched your replay on Python
Some advice:
Although zealots aren't as effective in early game without speed in PvT, they are very important afterwards against tanks.
Pure dragoons vs tanks is pretty much gonna end up with blue goo everywhere most of the time. With zealots, they take tank fire better and run up to tanks, dragging mines (using move command) and causing tanks to splash each other splash.
Dragoons are good against vultures and goliaths though, while zealots are not so good against vultures in high numbers.
Your main army should consist of dragoons+zealots, with maybe shuttle drops, and later on get arbiters, then HT, or go carriers.
You don't need to go double robo though since reavers are only good early game vs T for harass with shuttle.
Also, try getting a third quicker and keep scouting expos around the map for enemy expos, later on you will develop better game sense for when enemy expands.
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@the python game
just gonna give some general tips
1) need better arrangement, so goons can pass better
2)get robotics around 2-3 gates, only 1. unless you go for reaver harass, don't get robotics support bay, just observatory
3)macro macro macro. the main problem here. you don't wanna be 2k mins, you want to hover below 400~500 at most. more gates more units
4) expand, you should be taking 1 everytime T gets one, staying 1 expo ahead of terran.
5)army composition. you always wanna have around 1/3 as much zealots as you have goons. reason is that since they are small units, they only get 50% damage from tanks, soaking up some hits for your goons.
6) try not to get pop stuck, especially during first ~70 population, since early/mid game it matters a lot. always keep an eye on your psi
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What posters above me meant was staying away from Zealots earlygame, not in general.
In BW, standard armies usually consist of the so-called core units and support units. In PvT, your core mid/lategame units are going to be the two basic Gateway units - Zealots and Dragoons. The former are meant to deal with Siege Tanks, while the latter - Vultures.
Your support units are going to be: Observers (general scouting, checking out the positioning of the enemy's army, dealing with mines, scouting expansions), Shuttle(s) (in battles they're used to drop Zealots onto the sieged Tanks or carrying HTs/Reavers), HTs (for Storms; make sure your other units don't get too far from your HTs since Vultures can easily snipe them, you could try carrying them in a Shuttle), sometimes Reavers (to attack clumped Tanks; people often have a Zealot+Reaver in their Shuttle and drop the Zealot first to draw fire away from the Reaver), and in lategame - Arbiters (for cloaking, Stasis and Recalls).
As for the replay on Python:
Your goal early on is to get range Goons and Observer tech quickly so that you can deal with mines. But don't ever make two Robos - it's a huge waste of gas. Then you'll want to secure your natural and aim to get your standard army.
Always try to stay ahead of the Terran by at least one expansion. Beware of timed attacks as soon as your extra expansion finishes, though, since that's when you're vulnerable (Nexus+Probes is a big investment - requires time to pay back and depending on the map may force you to spread your forces thin).
When going for Zealot first (you don't really need to, your first fighting unit may as well be a Dragoon), try doing something productive with it. You could e.g. block your ramp with it, and make the Terran think you're up to something sneaky, making him invest more in defences.
Place your Gates closer to the ramp - not in the back of your base. Basically, you want your base layout to not be an obstacle for your units in case the Terran drops you (you'd have to watch some games to see what I mean), while making sure your newly built units don't have to travel a distance longer than necessary (to your nat and subsequently the battlefield).
Use Spider Mines against your enemy - it's called mine dragging. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Minedrag.gif&filetimestamp=20090403173315
Combined with Shuttle, Zealots can be even more powerful because Siege Tanks in BW do not have any anti-overkill AI. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealot_Bombing
Your first major attack was surprisingly successful, but don't attack the Siege Tank line in a clumped blob of Goons. Send your Zealots first (WITH SPEED UPGRADE), they're your counter to Tanks. Here's what Liquipedia has to say about engaging the Terran army:
"Flanking
This technique is extremely effective and you should make a habit of always using it no matter what unit numbers you have - for example, you have a terran army at point B and your army at point A1.
A2.......
........B
A1.......
Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order it to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move Dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous. Flanking is considered a force-multiplier; it allows you to spread out the Terran's attack and reduce splash, while allowing you to concentrate your attack from multiple angles. Proper timing of the various flanking groups is absolutely critical.
If a flank is properly done, it can not only decimate the Terran push, it can hinder or prevent retreat as well, which will gain you a bigger advantage."
Read the whole article, TBH:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking
Also try to attack from an angle at which you're within range of the least number of Tanks.
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1) Any tips for making dragoons behave?
2) Yeah I got the robo support bay out of habit from SC2 to get observer speed. Forgot that the speed upgrade is on the observatory in BW
3) Haven't quite got a feel for when to add more gates. How many gates making dragoons can you support per expansion? 8? 9?
Ok so against a terran going vulture/tank, I want to get up to 3 gates asap, drop a robo for some observers, expand, add some zealots into the mix, get zealot speed (?), and continue production.
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On January 30 2011 23:09 maybenexttime wrote:What posters above me meant was staying away from Zealots earlygame, not in general. In BW, standard armies usually consist of the so-called core units and support units. In PvT, your core mid/lategame units are going to be the two basic Gateway units - Zealots and Dragoons. The former are meant to deal with Siege Tanks, while the latter - Vultures. Your support units are going to be: Observers (general scouting, checking out the positioning of the enemy's army, dealing with mines, scouting expansions), Shuttle(s) (in battles they're used to drop Zealots onto the sieged Tanks or carrying HTs/Reavers), HTs (for Storms; make sure your other units don't get too far from your HTs since Vultures can easily snipe them, you could try carrying them in a Shuttle), sometimes Reavers (to attack clumped Tanks; people often have a Zealot+Reaver in their Shuttle and drop the Zealot first to draw fire away from the Reaver), and in lategame - Arbiters (for cloaking, Stasis and Recalls). As for the replay on Python: Your goal early on is to get range Goons and Observer tech quickly so that you can deal with mines. But don't ever make two Robos - it's a huge waste of gas. Then you'll want to secure your natural and aim to get your standard army. Always try to stay ahead of the Terran by at least one expansion. Beware of timed attacks as soon as your extra expansion finishes, though, since that's when you're vulnerable (Nexus+Probes is a big investment - requires time to pay back and depending on the map may force you to spread your forces thin). When going for Zealot first (you don't really need to, your first fighting unit may as well be a Dragoon), try doing something productive with it. You could e.g. block your ramp with it, and make the Terran think you're up to something sneaky, making him invest more in defences. Place your Gates closer to the ramp - not in the back of your base. Basically, you want your base layout to not be an obstacle for your units in case the Terran drops you (you'd have to watch some games to see what I mean), while making sure your newly built units don't have to travel a distance longer than necessary (to your nat and subsequently the battlefield). Use Spider Mines against your enemy - it's called mine dragging. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/index.php?title=File:Minedrag.gif&filetimestamp=20090403173315Combined with Shuttle, Zealots can be even more powerful because Siege Tanks in BW do not have any anti-overkill AI. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Zealot_BombingYour first major attack was surprisingly successful, but don't attack the Siege Tank line in a clumped blob of Goons. Send your Zealots first (WITH SPEED UPGRADE), they're your counter to Tanks. Here's what Liquipedia has to say about engaging the Terran army: "Flanking This technique is extremely effective and you should make a habit of always using it no matter what unit numbers you have - for example, you have a terran army at point B and your army at point A1. A2....... ........B A1....... Now, you don't just A-move your army to B, but first order it to move to A2. While moving, your army formation changes from a blob to something more resembling a line. Then, before your troops reach the destination, A-move Dragoons to B. The difference is tremendous. Flanking is considered a force-multiplier; it allows you to spread out the Terran's attack and reduce splash, while allowing you to concentrate your attack from multiple angles. Proper timing of the various flanking groups is absolutely critical. If a flank is properly done, it can not only decimate the Terran push, it can hinder or prevent retreat as well, which will gain you a bigger advantage." Read the whole article, TBH: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Push_Breaking
This was a super awesome post thank you so so much!
So concaves are pretty much universally important here too.
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No problem. ;]
Positioning in general is much more important in BW than it is in sc2. You'll learn more about that once you get more in depth understanding of the game.
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Pretty much all Terrans are universally likely to go vulture/tank vs me as Protoss, is that right? it seems like bio would be too much of a risk for them given how potent storm and reavers are in BW?
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On January 30 2011 23:20 Dhalphir wrote: Pretty much all Terrans are universally likely to go vulture/tank vs me as Protoss, is that right? it seems like bio would be too much of a risk for them given how potent storm and reavers are in BW?
That's true. The core TvP army is Vultures with Tanks. Goliaths are there to counter Carriers or Arbiters, as well as Shuttles and Observers. As for support units, Terrans use Vessels (detection and EMP mainly) and sometimes Wraiths (either to handle Carriers or Shuttle shenanigans).
You're unlikely to see bio play in TvP, although there's a strategy called Deep Six, but don't really worry about that - it's very rare. Bionic units are too fragile vs. Protoss (HTs, Reavers, DTs).
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glad to see another new player! i am not sure if you are playing any pvz right now but if you need a zerg practice partner give me a shout, i can give you a few pointers for this MU.
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Actually guys, I feel that there are a ton of similar builds out there that you can use in similar matchups but more or less it's about knowing how to react too, right? I'm not downplaying SC2 skill or anything but in SC2 people opt for standard plays a lot more, whereas you get crazy guys and gals working crazy stuff a lot too. Macro > Micro. Micro makes the difference between having ONE vulture and TWO vultures getting decent kills, but does that little difference mean anything when you have like 3x the other guy's supply? :D
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On January 31 2011 00:23 IntoTheheart wrote: Actually guys, I feel that there are a ton of similar builds out there that you can use in similar matchups but more or less it's about knowing how to react too, right? I'm not downplaying SC2 skill or anything but in SC2 people opt for standard plays a lot more, whereas you get crazy guys and gals working crazy stuff a lot too. Macro > Micro. Micro makes the difference between having ONE vulture and TWO vultures getting decent kills, but does that little difference mean anything when you have like 3x the other guy's supply? :D
If that vulture still has spider mines, absolutely
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generally you can support about 3-4 gateways per base.
build order 2 gate range -> pressure terran and expand, get robo&obs, add more gates to about 4, continue making units, when you get 1-2 groups of dragoons, get citadel for speed (when speed is halfway done, start making zealots from all your gates). expand again. (later when you get some more game sense, you can expand before zealots)
more tanks -> more zealots more vultures -> more goons
don't bother with shuttle drops on tanks imo make sure you put your unit groups in a semicircle around the terrans army so you can flank/sandwich him. always try to stay close to the terran army so you can pounce it if he unsieges or is out of position, but far enough so that you're not in range. (maintaing this distance while terran is moving and still keeping a flanking setup so you can attack him at any time can be a bit hard until you learn it) if you're losing the battle, retreat - this is important. you usually retreat when zealots have died and your dragoons don't stand a chance against his tanks. then when new zealots come, you can attack again.
use f2 for main nex, f3 for expansion nex, f4 for gateways (or hotkey a gateway at 6 and press 66 to get to the gateways and use f4 for the 2nd exp) use 0 for main nex, 9 for expansion, then you can do 0p9p to make probes even if you're not looking.
1 obs in terrans base to see the number of factories, 1 in front of his base to see how much army he has, and any army movements. and 1 with your units. you can add more later.
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Also when you're continuing the battle, reinforce with Zealots - they're very fast after the upgrade, meaning they'll get to the battlefield much sooner than Goons, which is more important than getting the perfect unit combination.
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On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me [...]
Actually I am. Due to a crash of my PC I am not able to continue playing SC2 for some time so I decided to give BW a shot (never played it before except SP, but like you really enjoyed to watch it) in the meantime. My greatest obstacle for improving in SC2 (~2.2k-2.5k Diamond) was Macro and because Macro in BW is much more difficult than in SC2 I may skyrocket in SC2 if I master it in BW.
Hm it seems my thoughts drifted away a bit, so I marked the advice parts (things that seem to work well for me).
I started directly on Iccup last Weekend. Decided to play just on one Map at a time (Destination for the first half of the week, Heartbreak Ridge since then) which seems to work very well. First I really had no clue what to do and so the first games I did not lose were just Unit massing to 200/200 and A Move into enemies front. But I had to find out very soon, that D Region is full of /clearstats - Players and even regular D Level Players are way more routined than me. So I took one step back and again pored over BW Liquipedia, the D9Ds (BW) and Ver's Guide to Improving (fortunatly I already knew them in detail because of my preperation for SC2) and chose Builds for each Matchup on Destination/HBR. Currently I am doing PvT: 1 Gate Core Expand into 4 Gates (blindly) + Obs into 3rd Gas and more Gates + Arbiter; I really would like to open 12 Nexus but I dislike to fend off Bunker Rushes because Probes get stuck against each other (unlike SC2) and refuse to Attackmove most of the time (did not found a viable solution yet) PvP: 1 Gate Goon Range + Obs into 2 Gate Goon expand into more Gates + Reavers PvZ: Forge FE into 3 Gate +1 Speedlot Rush, taking a third during the rush and pounding zerg down with much more Zealots/Archons (+ Obs against Lurker) and mass Corsair before I tend to depend on Psy Storm / Reavers because my Shuttle/HT control is really awefull (no smartcast :< )
As mentioned before you will most likely lose a ton of games but unlike SC2 (at least for me) each win is much more satisfying and improvement is much more perceptible. For example I hesitated to move out with my initial Units in PvT because I was really afraid of sieged Tanks and Mines (my first PvT was on Blue Storm aswell and I ran into my first mines ever like you did, with a feeling "Mines! So exciting! I am truly playing BW PvT now :D " followed by "Zomigosh! They are everywhere! Every step impends sudden death! O.O ") But eventually by watching the replay of another defeat I suddenly realized that its all but impossible for T to have Mines and/or Siege Mode unless a certain point in time (even more if he intends to expand early and _even_ more if he early expands without a factory) and therefore I have a timing window where I can not just move around freely on the map but also pressure T a bit with early Goons. Although this seems total obvious in retrospect, it felt like an epiphany by that time and in conjunction I remembered about Ver's Guide talking about that concept of recognizing your opponents point of view in order to fathom your own play and experiencing that again was absolutly satisfying.
However, even by that short period of time I eventually was able to climb up to D+ , lost 13 Games in a row after that cO and now worked up to D+ again. Tbh geting promoted oc flatters my ego, but I dont really care about my rating. I am not hesitant to lose 50 Points by leaving a game in order to punish myself for geting supply capped or botching my Build within first 5 Minutes.
Therefore if you can motivate yourself through skill improvement instead of rating improvement I absolutly think you can start with Iccup right away. For example I am still horrible at TvP (currently my worst Matchup with 24% Winratio) but am already able to identify a FD Opening and fend it of with increasing ease.
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It was mentioned in the middle of an earlier post, but if you would like to improve your basic gamesense and at the same time enjoy nice replays you should really watch the first 66 episodes of Day[9] Dailies. Maybe look for the PvX ones to start with if you are eager, but definitely look at all of them later on. It will get those grey cells working on stuff that you otherwise would not, and give you the perspective that certain amounts of gamesense maybe isn´t unobtainable pure magic after all.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154
Oh how i wish that Day[9] would start to occasionally do a BW game once in a while. His look at Fantasy OSL ro4 and finals would be so so awesome
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So many great posts coming from everyone. I'm loving it. What a great BW community.
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On January 31 2011 09:03 Dhalphir wrote: So many great posts coming from everyone. I'm loving it. What a great BW community.
now you know why TL has been so awesome over the years!
I'm learning stuff from people even though I don't play protoss (or much BW anymore... )
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On January 31 2011 07:45 Kairo wrote:It was mentioned in the middle of an earlier post, but if you would like to improve your basic gamesense and at the same time enjoy nice replays you should really watch the first 66 episodes of Day[9] Dailies. Maybe look for the PvX ones to start with if you are eager, but definitely look at all of them later on. It will get those grey cells working on stuff that you otherwise would not, and give you the perspective that certain amounts of gamesense maybe isn´t unobtainable pure magic after all. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154Oh how i wish that Day[9] would start to occasionally do a BW game once in a while. His look at Fantasy OSL ro4 and finals would be so so awesome
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581
^^ listening to these might help a lot too. they may be geared towards a bit better players, but it's worth listening to even if you're not a good player, just so that you know what to strive for, and how to approach things in the future.
It will help you improve the way you think about the game and strategy.
I suggest while listening to them to do that exclusively, don't do something else at the same time.
On January 31 2011 01:26 Xanatoss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 30 2011 16:12 Dhalphir wrote: I'm hoping there's someone who was in a similar situation to me [...]
Actually I am. Due to a crash of my PC I am not able to continue playing SC2 for some time so I decided to give BW a shot (never played it before except SP, but like you really enjoyed to watch it) in the meantime. My greatest obstacle for improving in SC2 (~2.2k-2.5k Diamond) was Macro and because Macro in BW is much more difficult than in SC2 I may skyrocket in SC2 if I master it in BW. Hm it seems my thoughts drifted away a bit, so I marked the advice parts (things that seem to work well for me).I started directly on Iccup last Weekend. Decided to play just on one Map at a time ( Destination for the first half of the week, Heartbreak Ridge since then) which seems to work very well. First I really had no clue what to do and so the first games I did not lose were just Unit massing to 200/200 and A Move into enemies front. But I had to find out very soon, that D Region is full of /clearstats - Players and even regular D Level Players are way more routined than me. So I took one step back and again pored over BW Liquipedia, the D9Ds (BW) and Ver's Guide to Improving (fortunatly I already knew them in detail because of my preperation for SC2) and chose Builds for each Matchup on Destination/HBR. Currently I am doing PvT: 1 Gate Core Expand into 4 Gates (blindly) + Obs into 3rd Gas and more Gates + Arbiter; I really would like to open 12 Nexus but I dislike to fend off Bunker Rushes because Probes get stuck against each other (unlike SC2) and refuse to Attackmove most of the time (did not found a viable solution yet) PvP: 1 Gate Goon Range + Obs into 2 Gate Goon expand into more Gates + Reavers PvZ: Forge FE into 3 Gate +1 Speedlot Rush, taking a third during the rush and pounding zerg down with much more Zealots/Archons (+ Obs against Lurker) and mass Corsair before I tend to depend on Psy Storm / Reavers because my Shuttle/HT control is really awefull (no smartcast :< ) As mentioned before you will most likely lose a ton of games but unlike SC2 (at least for me) each win is much more satisfying and improvement is much more perceptible. For example I hesitated to move out with my initial Units in PvT because I was really afraid of sieged Tanks and Mines (my first PvT was on Blue Storm aswell and I ran into my first mines ever like you did, with a feeling "Mines! So exciting! I am truly playing BW PvT now :D " followed by "Zomigosh! They are everywhere! Every step impends sudden death! O.O ") But eventually by watching the replay of another defeat I suddenly realized that its all but impossible for T to have Mines and/or Siege Mode unless a certain point in time (even more if he intends to expand early and _even_ more if he early expands without a factory) and therefore I have a timing window where I can not just move around freely on the map but also pressure T a bit with early Goons. Although this seems total obvious in retrospect, it felt like an epiphany by that time and in conjunction I remembered about Ver's Guide talking about that concept of recognizing your opponents point of view in order to fathom your own play and experiencing that again was absolutly satisfying. However, even by that short period of time I eventually was able to climb up to D+ , lost 13 Games in a row after that cO and now worked up to D+ again. Tbh geting promoted oc flatters my ego, but I dont really care about my rating. I am not hesitant to lose 50 Points by leaving a game in order to punish myself for geting supply capped or botching my Build within first 5 Minutes.Therefore if you can motivate yourself through skill improvement instead of rating improvement I absolutly think you can start with Iccup right away. For example I am still horrible at TvP (currently my worst Matchup with 24% Winratio) but am already able to identify a FD Opening and fend it of with increasing ease.
very good post. I'm glad to hear about your progress and improvement in the way of thinking.
also, you can check out this topic and my comment (it's pretty much the same as this):
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7584782
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On January 30 2011 21:13 MamiyaOtaru wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected.
wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW
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On January 31 2011 14:00 luckyseven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 21:13 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected. wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW
i am so mad I never knew this though I've never had issues with worker mining accuracy
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as for goons behaviour....... (for fun)
1. when moving them down a ramp, you'll need to watch and nudge them a bit. they will bump into each other and start going the other way >_>
2. watch a few pvts in the progaming database. often terran makes a small attack at the start with marines a tank and a vult, and you can see the protoss trying to micro a few goons against it.
note how you have to wait for the goons to fire before moving them, and how fucking long this takes. if you move them at the wrong time they will cancel their attack and you'll end up never shooting (as im sure you're already aware).
basically you need to practice "a-move, move, a-move, move" timing
iirc this is also why its important to NOT use attack-move repeatedly when in combat. everytime you click attack-move, your goons will cancel shooting/reset their animation. obv this will cost you the fight. iirc
BEST LINK ON TEAMLIQUID http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/vods/nospoiler the yellow Cross on the left side of each entry is a link to a youtube vid of the game
3. pay extra extra attention when a vulture gets into your base and you send goons to chase it. often due to your shitty micro they will not see the vulture and end up standing around about 3 centimetres away from it just watching it kill your probes >_>
4. as people have said, goons will clump up. you should ALWAYS be going to your control groups every so often and spreading them out, if only to block the path of vultures that might try to sneak into your base. make it your job to do this, many players will happily rape you just using vultures alone (welcome to hell)
5. when you attack, as people have said, send the zealots first (spread out so they dont all die to 2 mines). when all zealots are dead, immediately pull back your dragoons out of tank range until your next wave of zealots come. you'll see this happen every time in pro games, and soooo many games are lost because of not having the patience to do this. often you'll hear me say "damn nice discipline" when watching a pvt when the protoss has the discipline to pull back when his zealots are down
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On January 31 2011 14:00 luckyseven wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2011 21:13 MamiyaOtaru wrote:On January 30 2011 16:19 Dhalphir wrote: Are there any tips for getting around the "no worker automatic mining"? Is it generally a good idea to rally your Nexus to some spot thats away from your other workers so that you can easily go back and gather up the worker or workers that have finished building since you last checked and put them to work? Ideally you'll rally towards minerals, saves some time. As for not being able to pick out new/idle workers from all the working ones, just drag select as many as you can and shift-right click on a mineral patch. The idle one(s) will get to work, and the rest will continue on their way unaffected. wow....its 2011 and i just learnt something new about BW
Agreed....
This makes mining on positions like Longinus @ 6 sooooo much easier...
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Yep I just had a game last night where the Terran just made nothing but vultures and ran them into my base around and around and around sniping workers.
It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence.
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On January 31 2011 14:57 Dhalphir wrote: Yep I just had a game last night where the Terran just made nothing but vultures and ran them into my base around and around and around sniping workers.
It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence. You need to leave some goons where they're going, move some to cut them off and have some chase them. Otherwise you can just start playing the Benny Hill theme and lose all of your workers.
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On January 31 2011 15:08 Magus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 14:57 Dhalphir wrote: Yep I just had a game last night where the Terran just made nothing but vultures and ran them into my base around and around and around sniping workers.
It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence. You need to leave some goons where they're going, move some to cut them off and have some chase them. Otherwise you can just start playing the Benny Hill theme and lose all of your workers.
Oh I knew perfectly well what to do. The concept of intercepting Vultures with Dragoons is identical to the concept of intercepting Hellions with Stalkers in Starcraft 2.
The difference being that in Starcraft 2 you tell one Stalker to go HERE, and two stalkers to go HERE, and a fourth to go THERE and the hellion is neatly herded to its doom.
In Brood War, you tell one Dragoon to go HERE, and another to go THERE, and then a last one to go over by your ramp to cut off the Vulture's retreat, and what ACTUALLY happens is that the Vulture happily sits by your probe line killing workers while the dragoons go spastic in a corner of your base and one of them decides that the act of moving around has just become all too much effort and just sits still.
Having to babysit units is something I'm slowly getting used to but it is still frustrating at times.
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10387 Posts
On January 31 2011 16:32 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2011 15:08 Magus wrote:On January 31 2011 14:57 Dhalphir wrote: Yep I just had a game last night where the Terran just made nothing but vultures and ran them into my base around and around and around sniping workers.
It was like in SC2 when speedlings get into your base except instead of having crisp SC2 pathing to be able to intercept them with zealots and stalkers, I was shepherding a legitimately retarded Dragoon around trying to intercept something twice as fast and with 200% more intelligence. You need to leave some goons where they're going, move some to cut them off and have some chase them. Otherwise you can just start playing the Benny Hill theme and lose all of your workers. Oh I knew perfectly well what to do. The concept of intercepting Vultures with Dragoons is identical to the concept of intercepting Hellions with Stalkers in Starcraft 2. The difference being that in Starcraft 2 you tell one Stalker to go HERE, and two stalkers to go HERE, and a fourth to go THERE and the hellion is neatly herded to its doom. In Brood War, you tell one Dragoon to go HERE, and another to go THERE, and then a last one to go over by your ramp to cut off the Vulture's retreat, and what ACTUALLY happens is that the Vulture happily sits by your probe line killing workers while the dragoons go spastic in a corner of your base and one of them decides that the act of moving around has just become all too much effort and just sits still. Having to babysit units is something I'm slowly getting used to but it is still frustrating at times. wut you do is make a semi-wall w/ pylons at your nat choke w/ a hole big enough for one goon, and you rally your gates around that hole (preferably in the area in front of it). That way, shit doesn't just go flying into your base keep a control group of goons patrolling about clearing mines and you can park the rest of your army at your nat, and expand at willlll
Like said, you should watch a lot of VODs so you can learn this gamesense. Simcity is one of the most important aspects of Starcraft, something that SC2 lacks in depth.
I played a mock-game against nobody just for you to make an easy-to-see image for you+ Show Spoiler + So I'd start making my pylon wall w/ my fourth pylon, after I expand (10 gate/11gas/13core/14zealot/16pylon(slight probe cut to do 16p)/dragoon/range), and actually I'd rather delay the second and third pylon at my nat until after I make my third/third's pylon wall and get caught up in supply.
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Indeed some units in bw have better AI than others. The beauty of this game though is that every race has a number of things which are incredibly frustrating to deal with. Often it's by far the better strategy to avoid situations entirely where these issues come up, instead of accepting them too easily as a necessary part of your game and just trying to directly overcome them. Especially at lower levels of play the people who are most successful are those who are willing to take extreme measures in making certain parts of the game alot easier for themselves, instead of trying to be a progamer and bashing their heads against a wall like everyone else. This is why bm and excessive complaints of imbalance used to be so common in this game, even among the more mature players, because when you're stuck at a point where you don't know how to deal it can seem particularly unfair. But over time it just made us a more level-headed community since we realized that PvT can't possibly be as imbalanced as everyone thinks, when there are so many terrans and protosses complaining, and the same for every other non-mirror. Even after so many years though it is still a frustrating game, even for pros. The key is knowing how to be the one dishing out the frustration instead of being affected by it.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60601 These are still worthwhile to read. A lot of specific details about the mechanics of certain units/situations. Someone already linked to the push breaking article, which is probably worth reading a couple times.
Make sure you watch some pro-gamer replays. There are a lot of replays from foreigners, korean amateurs, and a few from the actual pro's (usually practice games or WCG.) These really help a lot with getting down timings, hotkeys, how to attack, how to use the map, what to scout for, etc. The replay system isn't as advanced as in SC2 but it still helps a lot to try and follow a pro's thought process.
For PvT specifically try this. http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/index.php?player1=&team1_race=Protoss&map=&description=&uploader=&player2=&team2_race=Terran&search=1
Also read this when you start to focus on PvZ. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62652
Walling in BW requires practice. If you go and try to do a makeshift FFE wall in a PvZ lings will ruin your day half the time. You probably won't be playing much on some of the maps in that thread, but the rules for ling tight wall offs will help you make your own serviceable wall ins. In PvT keep in mind that two pylons next to each other will block units like Dragoons and Vultures but will let probes slide through unharmed. It is often a good idea to seal off expansions with pylons this way to deflect vulture harass. Again watching replays will give you a good sense of how and when the the pros do this.
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