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Bisutopia18980 Posts
In the BW General Thread this was posted:
On October 19 2015 20:08 GGitsJack wrote: Hey guys, just started playing BW again recently and a friend mentioned to me the meta has changed quite a bit since we last played (2009 ish). Just wonder what the state of the game is like atm? Has there been any big gamechangers like the protoss FFE?
It made me think, we should really talk about the meta and the current maps.
Discussions Starters: Best Openers for each map in XvX matchup? Best Build Orders for each map XvX matchup? Common mid game transitions XvX matchup?
Please list your main race if you are talking from experience. Also, if the meta is different for the foreign scene please point out the differences.
This is a great reference for how these discussions should go: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Liquipedia QnA Episode 1
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what strikes me as interesting, casting the latest iteration of TLC (13) and watching him play in a couple of others is:
Why is Djem5 so beastly good with his FFE 2 gate Zeal into 2 Stargate agression and why has none of the top zergs so far been able to stop him? Catspaw speculated, that foreign zergs atm are not well experienced in deflecting this kind of early agressive play and while his argument has merits to itself, it doesn't fully satisfy me.
For instance, in the Semi's game two between Djem5 and Zaraki, we can assume Zaraki was prepared for Djem's shenanigans, having him seen this play in practically all of his PvZ's in his TLC games. Yet, Djem was able to kill the third base, deal with the Muta harass and come out way ahead.
Im thrilled to hear what you guys think about it, especially high level zerg players that can enlighten us more on the problem they face handling it. Also, i'm blatantly obvious advertising our Cast here, but i'll hope you forgive me, one does not often get the luxury to cast TLC games (;
€: if this in your opinion a bit too far of topic from the general "meta discussion" im sorry BD, but in my mind it's fit here. Feel free to delete my post if i'm wrong in that regard (;
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
This is perfect! I'll dive in on what you wrote after my meeting. ^
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When we talk about metagame, we have to separate the korean one from the non korean one They're not the same and almost never are
There's not just "the" metagame
Anyway, one thing that comes to my mind is PvZ. In 2008 and 2009, Protoss users often tried to, and sometimes succeeded in, breaking the front of Zerg from 2 or 3 bases with lots of dragoons and high templars before Zerg had hive. Now, that is not a way to win any more. Instead, Protoss players expand very quickly, walk around the map just to kill units, doing hit and run attacks against the Zerg army, but never committing to a full attack - never standing still for too long. (If they do, they get surrounded and die). At the same time, they do a lot of shuttle harassing. DT drops + corsairs in to the main, storm drops while attacking the Zerg army, etc.
Zerg has gotten better at surviving the midgame, but Protoss has gotten better at keeping up in the late game. We no longer see a Protoss who is very dangerous and advantageous in the mid game, but slowly dies once the Zerg has dark swarm. PvZ was sometimes like ZvT vs SK Terran, with Protoss going semi all in in the mid game, and almost losing by default in the late game. Now, Protoss players are better at using reavers to defend their expansions, and dealing with doom drops (cannons + storm). As a Zerg, you should expect to be dropped and harassed. It's the norm, not the exception. And you shouldn't feel like you are doing well just because you have a decent economy and have reached the late game.
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On October 20 2015 02:59 vOdToasT wrote: When we talk about metagame, we have to separate the korean one from the non korean one They're not the same and almost never are
There's not just "the" metagame
True. From my perception, it makes more sense to focus in the foreign metagame here, since not a lot of even Top foreigners feel fully confident in having a good understanding of the korean Metagame. The amount of information is quite limited, it's hard to get korean practice partners to help you understand it better and i honestly don't think anybody here besides Scan is able to give a good overview on it.
But then again, im a newb, so enlighten me if im wrong. :D
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On October 20 2015 03:03 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 02:59 vOdToasT wrote: When we talk about metagame, we have to separate the korean one from the non korean one They're not the same and almost never are
There's not just "the" metagame True. From my perception, it makes more sense to focus in the foreign metagame here, since not a lot of even Top foreigners feel fully confident in having a good understanding of the korean Metagame. The amount of information is quite limited, it's hard to get korean practice partners to help you understand it better and i honestly don't think anybody here besides Scan is able to give a good overview on it. But then again, im a newb, so enlighten me if im wrong. :D
I think that we can make observations about the korean metagame, but not be certain of the causes of what we see.
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I'm a new player but something I've been noticing in zvz is that koreans seem to prefer expansion builds such as 12pool/12gas/11hatch or just straight up 12 hatch. Can better zergs confirm this? Also perhaps expand a little bit on the reasons why?
(At my lvl C- I've been observing the same thing actually, lots of people seem to go for expansion builds or at least builds with 2 hatches.)
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United States2948 Posts
Interesting discussion, thanks BD
I imagine there will be more maps added to KSL2, but Match Point is the most interesting from the progamer games I've seen -- granted, I've only watched about 20 games, mostly involving EffOrt, Rush, and PianO.
Mostly because of the difficulty in expanding to that distant 3rd and 4th gas expansion.
For example, the TvZ strategy is drastically different as a result, with almost all SK Terran or vultures + bio and minimal mech switching compared to FS/CB. Zerg strategy doesn't seem to be nearly as affected, with muta openings to hive tech/ultras/cracklings quite standard. Interestingly, or perhaps as one expects, the Match Point TvZ win rate is much more neutral compared to, say, FS...
TvP on Match Point also seems at a disadvantage for the Terran. The Terran natural entry/choke seems to be more difficult to seal off with simcity so early attacks or proxy gateways seem to be very popular.
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United States1428 Posts
The meta is totally just crazy, it's bonkers, it's hysterical, it's a discombobulated chaotic morasses. That's the meta. It's all about that meta. The meta is weird, I don't even know if anyone should deviate from meta or the meta. The meta meta? It's meta. I don't know the meta that well. That was really meta. Meta meta meta. Is it meta or is it the meta? I want to ask this because when I'm down at the bar engaging in intelligent StarCraft strategy and want to ask about or discuss it, do I say meta or the meta? Isn't that a "meta thing" or is it isn't that a "the meta thing." I just gotta know about this or else I won't be able to get something tasty. There's this great deal down at the bar where they're selling shrimps but the problem is when I ask for shrimps do I say I want to order shrimp or shrimps? That's the meta for you.
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Is it just me, or are Korean Terrans more aggressive in TvP than ever before?
Technically speaking, FD/Strong FD can be seen as aggression and has been a staple of TvP for a long time, but it's really more like territorial pressure in order to safely expand while waiting for mine tech to finish.
What I'm talking about is what happens after the expansion is up; I have noticed over the past 2 years that a lot of Terrans opt for low factory count pressure, like 3 fact. Of course this is map/player dependent, but it's a general feeling I've had. In particular I'm thinking of HiyA, although I've seen Sea do it as well. Anyone else notice this? Any speculations?
If this in fact is a pattern that others can attest to, I would hypothesize that it is because the average Terran skill level is higher than that of Protoss, and that maps like Circuit Breaker/Fighting Spirit have pretty much been figured out. There was a thread a few months ago about the rising T>P numbers on maps like FS. Could this be due to the more aggressive approach?
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this will be a very interesting thread. Thank you everyone for posting, I'll be watching this
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Japan11285 Posts
On October 20 2015 06:55 prech wrote: TvP on Match Point also seems at a disadvantage for the Terran. The Terran natural entry/choke seems to be more difficult to seal off with simcity so early attacks or proxy gateways seem to be very popular. imo, it's popular because of the fact that rush distances are quite short and players can make proxies in the area around the min only that's out of the way of the normal scouting route. Also, when it comes to midgame onward, the place between the ramp, the min only and the natural expo choke point is hard to enter vs Terran because it's so cramped coming from the third and the only other option is from the low ground.
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where did the 1 rax cc opening vs protoss go? havent seen it in a while.
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Effort just played a game on Blue Storm vs straight up mech. He went queens asap and made only one muta to scout. I don't know how viable is this style since he lost. Queens need so much energy for that spawn broodling...
EDIT: yeah, forgot to mention that this is not the first time I saw Effort use this build
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On October 21 2015 02:42 Bakuryu wrote: where did the 1 rax cc opening vs protoss go? havent seen it in a while.
No idea, but 80% of my PvT games on fish are siege expand into academy now. (popularized by Mind)
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
On October 21 2015 04:47 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 02:42 Bakuryu wrote: where did the 1 rax cc opening vs protoss go? havent seen it in a while. No idea, but 80% of my PvT games on fish are siege expand into academy now. (popularized by Mind) Gas first offers a lot and most notably allows you to access armory upgrades faster. Double armory upgrades have been shown to be extremely effective for players like Mind.
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United States2948 Posts
On October 21 2015 03:40 CoughingHydra wrote: Effort just played a game on Blue Storm vs straight up mech. He went queens asap and made only one muta to scout. I don't know how viable is this style since he lost. Queens need so much energy for that spawn broodling...
EDIT: yeah, forgot to mention that this is not the first time I saw Effort use this build You likely watched the showmatch against Last -- they played immediately before that game on La Mancha where Last went 2-base mass goliaths supplemented with tanks and turrets while EffOrt's queens were too late, so he likely adjusted things and went queens earlier in the second game.
I see Larva counters this build with purely mass mutas on 3-4 bases, but it's a calculated risk having to guesstimate how many goliaths the Terran has and how many mutas are needed...
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
So bio into late game BCs. + Show Spoiler +Sea vs Hero in the Vant Starleague
Why are they so strong late game? What options does a zerg player have?
Gateway first versus zerg. Should this become more standard? Faster gateway could actually mean faster Stargate/tier 2 tech.
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On November 18 2015 02:53 BisuDagger wrote:So bio into late game BCs. + Show Spoiler +Sea vs Hero in the Vant Starleague Why are they so strong late game? What options does a zerg player have?
Gateway first versus zerg. Should this become more standard? Faster gateway could actually mean faster Stargate/tier 2 tech.
BCs: They are quite cost efficient, especially once you get 4. Zerg either has to make a lot of scourge and hope to catch BC out of turret cover or sit at the base being attacked with defiler (swarm) + hydra. So it ties up much of zergs gas in places they dont want it to be.
I didn't see the end of the sea vs hero game when BCs actually came out but I can assume sea attacked with 2 or 4 BC at 6 o clock to force zero to commit a lot of gas to defending that base while sea pressured others bases with the rest of his army. I think that Match Point is quite a nice map for BC because you can just turret up on the edge of your main near 12/6 and camp the BCs over the turret safe from scourge. If you can deny that base then you're keeping zerg on 4 gas maximum. Even if you don't secure that base yourself you are most likely 3 gas T vs 3/4 gas Z,
Zerg needs eco advantage to deal with BC, so that they can commit the gas to defend them and have a strong enough army to attack elsewhere at the same time.
Gateway Expand PvZ Should it become more standard? Imo it already is standard. Especially on 1 o clock and 7 o clock position on FS where you can make a wall with only 1 gap. Many players use it even on the other position or other maps where 1 gap wall is not possible. Top Protosses are so good at judging how they can order their followup (order of forge/nexus/gas/core) based on the zerg build. Zerg's only real option is to macro the perfect amount on lings (bare minimum without drones dying) to defend initial zealots while teching up as fast as possible. Its quite rare that P is greedy enough to allow an aggressive option (speedling 1st) from zerg to succeed.
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United States1428 Posts
What is meta? I'm gonna try to give a definition without actually looking it up in the dictionary.
Here's my definition: Meta: The psychological way people think while influenced by other people's actions that creates a cognitive preconceived line of thinking.
I probably tried to define meta in too specific of a brood war context though.
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