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Russian Federation92 Posts
Good day, commanders.
As per official Broodwar versions there are 5 localizations with different hotkeys layout: English, German, French, Spanish and Italian. + Show Spoiler + Most of us have English version. But some ppl use another localizations and they are playing on completely different hotkeys.
This is to inform you that I'm using remapped hotkeys in BroodWar. For example R instead of U (burrow), T instead of L (morph lurk), Y instead of O (overlord), ALT instead of R (rally). Screenshot + Show Spoiler +
The described above was never stated in any official rules, was not prohibited. So, I didn't break any rule, but anyway I'd like to ask TL tour admins about am I allowed to play TL tours in future?
Many thanks in advance. Best regards, Malki.
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lets hope someone in this thread tell me how this gives you any advantage since i asked in another thread and no one cared to answer.for me this doesnt give u any advantage,i will no change my hotkey setup after all these years playing .. so yeah i will like to heard a valid explanation.
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Japan11285 Posts
Imo, maybe it makes a slight difference in skill but it's pretty negligible. I don't remap myself but I see nothing wrong as long as it's not macros etc.
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Netherlands4418 Posts
Macros should never be allowed for BW, it would simply change the game.
I can guarantee you that remapping keys can definitely give an advantage.
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I had moved a few buttons when I was playing BW. Like scan was p which is closer to 0, marines, wraith and vultures were e, which is closed to 5-8, stim was e and so was siege, so they were close to 1-4
It was a little bit more comfortable and that's about it. I think saying that this is cheating is like saying that having an ergonomic keyboard is cheating. It's just a question of comfort.
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Russian Federation74 Posts
all official off-line tourneys use english version. on WCG u can't replace ur hotkeys. cuz it's real adventage. Now in internet it doesn't matter cuz we haven't bw on wcg and big lan tournaments
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Russian Federation92 Posts
On May 29 2016 22:59 Biff The Understudy wrote: I think saying that this is cheating is like saying that having an ergonomic keyboard is cheating. It's just a question of comfort. Right example. Agreed with you. Just for comfort.
On May 29 2016 23:27 iwl-fuNny wrote: all official off-line tourneys use english version. on WCG u can't replace ur hotkeys. cuz it's real adventage. Now in internet it doesn't matter cuz we haven't bw on wcg and big lan tournaments You're wrong. You are allowed to play on any official localization on official tournaments. Find me an official rule (f.e. from WCG) where is stated that the only english localization is the only approved
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Russian Federation74 Posts
dude , u don't meet any wcg
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On May 29 2016 22:57 Peeano wrote: I can guarantee you that remapping keys can definitely give an advantage. Thanks for your guarantee. With such incredibly astute and deep analysis, combined with mountains of supporting evidence, how can anyone not believe your guarantee?
On May 29 2016 23:27 iwl-fuNny wrote: all official off-line tourneys use english version. on WCG u can't replace ur hotkeys. cuz it's real adventage. Now in internet it doesn't matter cuz we haven't bw on wcg and big lan tournaments You haven't offered any evidence, or made any attempt at an argument, to try to prove this.
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That you gain an advantage is logical.
APM are physically limited. They are limited by a players Handspeed. Speed is distance / time. The time factor remains the same. The distance factor gets reduced. Therefor the amount of actions a player can perform within a certain time raises.
Is this unfair? On a pro top level i would say yes, because those guys play at the physical limited. On an amateur level i would be okay with it.
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On May 30 2016 03:24 molotow[eef] wrote: That you gain an advantage is logical.
APM are physically limited. They are limited by a players Handspeed. Speed is distance / time. The time factor remains the same. The distance factor gets reduced. Therefor the amount of actions a player can perform within a certain time raises.
Is this unfair? On a pro top level i would say yes, because those guys play at the physical limited. On an amateur level i would be okay with it.
1) There is many many MANY more factors involved in that. How long are your arms? How far away is your keyboard? How big are the individual keys? What keyboard layout do you use? ...
2) Clicking buttons faster doesnt make you a better player. If I had 10000000 APM I still couldnt beat flash.
3) If everybody can remap the keys to their own personal liking how can this be considered unfair?
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On May 30 2016 03:37 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 03:24 molotow[eef] wrote: That you gain an advantage is logical.
APM are physically limited. They are limited by a players Handspeed. Speed is distance / time. The time factor remains the same. The distance factor gets reduced. Therefor the amount of actions a player can perform within a certain time raises.
Is this unfair? On a pro top level i would say yes, because those guys play at the physical limited. On an amateur level i would be okay with it.
1) There is many many MANY more factors involved in that. How long are your arms? How far away is your keyboard? How big are the individual keys? What keyboard layout do you use? ... 2) Clicking buttons faster doesnt make you a better player. If I had 10000000 APM I still couldnt beat flash. 3) If everybody can remap the keys to their own personal liking how can this be considered unfair?
1) Maybe there are multiple factors. Doesn't make the handspeedfactor irrelevant, just reduces its relevance.
2) Improving usually doesnt express in being able to beat flash. A player with remapped hotkeys is better than a clone of that player without.
3) At the moment remapping hks needs some effort and knowledge, therefor not everybody can do it.
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Netherlands4418 Posts
On May 30 2016 02:53 feckless wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 22:57 Peeano wrote: I can guarantee you that remapping keys can definitely give an advantage. Thanks for your guarantee. With such incredibly astute and deep analysis, combined with mountains of supporting evidence, how can anyone not believe your guarantee? Just use common sense really. Read molotow[eef]'s posts above, he sum it up quite nicely. Pressing 3a4a5a in a row is much more comfortable than pressing 1a2a3a. And pressing the following key sequence, 5sz6sh7so, makes little sense. It can't be done without changing your hand position.
Here is an example of a key sequence, for Zerg players that use the English version, that might realistically occur:
1a 2a 3a 5sm 6sm 7so 1a 2a 3a 1apppp 1a 2a 3a When trained, it would be much easier to press this key sequence instead:
3q 4q 5q eat rat fag 3q 4q 3qaaaa 3q 4q 5q For above example use the fingering 45 35 25 452 352 352 45 35 25 455555 45 35 25 According to the picture below (5 means your pinky, 4 ring finger and so on):
For visualization sake; keys pressed for both examples: example 1 example 2
Btw, during example 2 you can easily rest your thumb on spacebar the whole time. When you think about it, it's quite ironic how 1a2a3a even became a thing.
Notes: - The words the key sequence spell are just a funny coincidence and in no way meant insulting - It's most likely that you can, currently trained, press the key sequence in the first example in succession a lot quicker and more comfortably - The key sequence and fingering is just an example, I'm not saying this would be ideal for any remapping purpose - I've played piano for over 15 years and using basic hand positions and figuring out the best fingering is a very essential part in being able to play well.
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With the use of flashy gamer keyboards with remapable keys I don't think it can be stopped during online ladder so I don't really feel like it's "cheating". When it comes to higher level leagues however then I can see it really starting to matter and I think that is a different argument to be had as there is more control possible at that level.
Myself, I don't change any of the default hotkeys because I'm a real man. I do think the person at Blizzard responsible for pressing"ss" to make scourge should be hanged though.
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I wonder how many times I mistyped "o" "i" and "u", but alas hotkey habits are (way too) hard to change anyway.
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Norway28225 Posts
fantastic description peeano
Honestly I think it should not be a big issue anymore. It is unlikely that there will ever be much money in foreign bw, and now, anyone can remap if they want to, there are no live tournaments where they hinder this and I haven't really seen it officially prohibited anywhere else.. (I remember way back in the day, an argument against keymapping on the practical level was that if you were going to any live tournament you'd have to play with their setup -and good luck with that if you are used to a different setup) But I do think that making a setup similar to what peeano suggests would, after a period of time, grant an advantage compared to the regular setup. It's hard to change though - I myself wouldn't bother - but if I were really trying to compete, I'd prolly feel like I had to.
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On May 30 2016 06:55 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 02:53 feckless wrote:On May 29 2016 22:57 Peeano wrote: I can guarantee you that remapping keys can definitely give an advantage. Thanks for your guarantee. With such incredibly astute and deep analysis, combined with mountains of supporting evidence, how can anyone not believe your guarantee? Just use common sense really. Read molotow[eef]'s posts above, he sum it up quite nicely. Pressing 3a4a5a in a row is much more comfortable than pressing 1a2a3a. And pressing the following key sequence, 5sz6sh7so, makes little sense. It can't be done without changing your hand position. Here is an example of a key sequence, for Zerg players that use the English version, that might realistically occur: 1a 2a 3a 5sm 6sm 7so 1a 2a 3a 1apppp 1a 2a 3a When trained, it would be much easier to press this key sequence instead: 3q 4q 5q eat rat fag 3q 4q 3qaaaa 3q 4q 5q For above example use the fingering 45 35 25 452 352 352 45 35 25 455555 45 35 25 According to the picture below (5 means your pinky, 4 ring finger and so on): For visualization sake; keys pressed for both examples: example 1example 2Btw, during example 2 you can easily rest your thumb on spacebar the whole time. When you think about it, it's quite ironic how 1a2a3a even became a thing. Notes:- The words the key sequence spell are just a funny coincidence and in no way meant insulting - It's most likely that you can, currently trained, press the key sequence in the first example in succession a lot quicker and more comfortably - The key sequence and fingering is just an example, I'm not saying this would be ideal for any remapping purpose - I've played piano for over 15 years and using basic hand positions and figuring out the best fingering is a very essential part in being able to play well. Okay, so I had some time to think about this after I posted that snide remark.
I understand what you are saying. And it makes sense. But I approached this discussion with a different mindset. The only reason this is an argument in the first place is if we assumed that just one person is doing this (that is, remapping keys) and the other is not. If there was a way to optimally set up the keys and everyone had access to this supposed optimization, then it wouldn't be an advantage for anyone. At that point it's simply who can do it faster or better, and if you can't (or won't), there's no sense in blaming the other person or claiming you are disadvantaged. Some people can micro a hell of a lot better than others, that has nothing to do with an inherent advantage; players have equal access to the mechanics of the game to get better at it.
Let's say everyone is using the English layout. The English layout isn't based on some optimal keyboard setup via hand position. It is set up via the language itself. That is, to build a supply depot, one would press the obvious keys. Or to attack, same process: press the obvious keys. For those familiar with English, it is intuitive and fairly easy to grasp. The only time it gets iffy is if two commands on the same interface share the same letter. Ignoring the fact that this is already disadvantageous to people who are not familiar with English (especially to the novices starting out), most people use this because it is the default. We are so used to it and for many of us it is so intuitive, that we can't really think of anything else (to be honest, even if we allowed remapping across the board, I'm sure some people would not even take advantage of it simply due to these circumstances). These things are part of the reason why people are against other setups. But, see, I understand why people think then that this is fair: because it is the default setup for the majority, or the one we are used to (again, ignoring the disadvantage I mentioned before and ignoring other localizations). In that sense, it is fair.
Now if there was some setup that was more optimal, or the most optimal, and everyone could do it, then of course everyone would use it, because not using it would automatically put you at a disadvantage. But if everyone were allowed to use it, then how would anyone have an inherent advantage (at least in this factor)? It would still be fair. Furthermore, if the opportunity existed for anyone to set up their keys as such and train to use it, then those who didn't wouldn't be able to complain anymore. Even if both players simply decided to set up based on their own preferences or comforts, then both players would be maximizing their own perceived advantage. So I don't know how anyone could say that one person has an advantage over the other. An advantage only exists if there is something to compare one to another. Your statement, "I can guarantee you that remapping keys can definitely give an advantage," seems to me to be only valid if you assume that just one person in the game has access to this particular function.
I don't think this is what anyone is suggesting (although I might be horribly wrong): that one person has an inherent advantage and the other not (although plenty of other counterexamples come to mind that already exist). I think the reason this is even being discussed is to open up the idea that maybe we should open up remapping to everyone. Your reply, and some of the others, are approaching the discussion with the bias that, currently, it's up to the player's own initiative to remap, while the other is (non-optimally) stuck with the default setups.
I hope this rambling post makes sense.
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To the above post, where I think the advantage would lie between players is people who have played with the shittier set-up and busted their ass to learn these improper key positions vs. someone who just starts with the optimized hotkey mapping. Eonzerg said he wouldn't switch because he's been playing with these hotkeys for years. If he did switch, however, it would take a while for him to unlearn the old hotkeys and relearn the new hotkeys in order to not have that inherent mechanical disadvantage. The question therefore is, why should we suddenly allow players to remap hotkeys and therefore put people who have been playing with the shittier hotkeys at a disadvantage, either by having them continue using suboptimal hotkeys out of habit or by forcing them to spend weeks or months getting used to a new hotkey set-up and probably messing up a lot during that time period, when instead we can just maintain status quo and have everyone learn the same hotkeys that everyone has been using for years? In other words, you are suggesting that the current player base re-learn hotkeys or get the short end of the stick, instead of the new players undergoing the same learning process that everyone else did. The saying "you can't teach an old dogs new tricks" is somewhat applicable here: it should be much easier for a new player to learn suboptimal hotkeys than it would be for existing players (which most likely are the vast majority of players who will be active in the coming years) to learn new hotkeys.
One thing that was touched upon earlier and I'm surprised no one expounded upon is hotkey stacking. What I mean by that is, why can't a Terran just make Stimpack, Siege Mode, and Vulture Mines all 1 letter? That would be so damn convenient, and definitely giving them an advantage over an older player on the older set-up. How about binding all three of those to your third mouse key? Imagine moving Vultures and laying Spider Mines with no keyboard use whatsoever, allowing you to macro while laying Mines with a lot less hassle? Or how about binding multiple keys to one command, so when I select a hatchery and I want to Select Larva, I can have "S" be "Select larva" but also say "F" and "J" or whatever keys do not interfere with other commands in the game, therefore allowing me to easily macro off a whole row of numbers if I so choose? Or doing that with 10 control groups and making A/F/J all "A" - Attack Move? What I'm getting at is, even if we can agree that macros are off the table, the question comes down to what is acceptable and what is not. Should we give everyone unlimited freedom in their hotkey choices? Who would officiate any limitations and uphold them?
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Netherlands4418 Posts
As long as any custom setup requires the same amount of actions it normally takes, I wouldn't mind anyone remapping and getting more comfortable. My main argument for it would be that allowing this option makes BW more appealing for newcomers, as it is quite common in gaming to make a custom hotkey setup.
I'd support an integrated hotkey customization feature for Shieldbattery, so everyone has the option to easily benefit. As a bonus it might cut down on people who would use actual macros? (Also, an anti-macro detector could/should be added if that isn't already a thing.)
Old dogs could easily tweak the regular setup to optimize the tricks they have already learned. But even relearning hotkeys, I don't imagine old dogs taking too long to effectively put that to use. So ultimately, imho, it would just come down to a pride thing where the old dog is too proud to learn anything new, not because he can't.
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Ofcourse it gives abit of an advantage not having to press "hard key-combos", it's simply easier to learn. But I'm all for making it used by everyone, included in a feature hopefully in the next patch. More info about it and let everyone use it. Then it's no more an advantage but rather a quite good feature that will not ruin any gameplay and will attract some more players.
The fun part about bw, to me, isn't really including having to press hard keycombo's that were made before anyone knew that BW would become competitive. I think it's a flaw that should have been fixed ages ago.
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