Q: What is the story behind the name “ZerO”? A: At first, I wanted to use “hero”, but it felt a bit too common. So I changed one letter and used ZerO. At that point in time, I was in middle school (approx. 15 years old) and did not think about what it meant. It just sounded cool.
Q: Tell us a little about how you started playing StarCraft. A: I first encountered StarCraft when I visited another family with my parents. One of the younger kids in that family showed me the game. I then started playing “infinite maps” (Korean lingo for resource-rich maps such as “Fastest Map”) with my friends in PC bangs. I got more into StarCraft after watching Starleagues on television.
Q: What made you decide to seriously pursue professional gaming as a career? A: I gradually became good enough to seriously consider it. Seeing players shed tears of joy in various Starleague finals had a strong impact on my desire to make it happen. I gained confidence by participating in guild matches and playing against top amateurs and B-teamers who streamed on what would later become AfreecaTV.
Q: Why did you choose Zerg as your race? A: At first, I enjoyed playing all three races. Eventually, I chose Zerg for the simple reason that I seemed to play best as Zerg. Perhaps I should have put more thought into it.
Q: How many times did you have to go through Courage to get your license? A: It took me three tries. I got beaten in ZvZ the first two times.
Q: Did you ever feel like quitting pro gaming during your KeSPA days? A: Sometimes, the harsh practice schedule took a harsh toll on me. This was likely true for most gamers. However, the sweet taste of victory in official matches helped keep me motivated.
Q: What do you think you would be today if you had not become a pro gamer? What did you want to be? A: I think I would have been a plain old office worker after going to college like everyone else. I really had no dreams before deciding to become a pro gamer. If my grades were good enough, I think I might have enjoyed being a teacher.
Q: Who are the people who most influenced your game style and development as a player? A: When I first joined Hanbit Stars (later Woongjin Stars), my seat in the practice room was next to a player named Shin Jeong-min. He taught me many things including how to best use group keys and adjust game settings. Because he played an “affluent” macro-oriented style that I liked, I naturally gravitated toward him.
Q: Which players did you consider to be your rivals? A: I really did not have rivals, but leaping over Jaedong was a personal goal. Rather than comparing myself to players who were similar to me in stature and skill like Effort and Calm, I wanted to overtake the very best (i.e., Jaedong).
Q: How would you evaluate your own mental fortitude? Do you think that it had any impact on your play in league games? A: Most people think that a player lacks mental fortitude based on the emotions that show on his face during and after a game. This is somewhat inaccurate in my opinion. Expressing emotions and being affected by them are two separate things. I think that my own mental fortitude was pretty good in the sense that I could focus on the next game after an upsetting loss. I believe that this is true for most players. However, I believe that my mentality in practice could have been better. Some of my contemporaries approached practice as if it were a matter of life and death. Perhaps I should have done so as well.
Q: What were the mistakes you made in the Tving 2012 semifinals against Jangbi? A: In Game 4, I made one fewer drone than I did in practice using that build. I wonder how many more hydras I could have made if I had that extra drone. Also, the two-lurker drop I attempted near the end of the game was a total failure that gave Jangbi the timing to attack. Other than that, I knew that I was in trouble once he started moving out with his “hanbang”. In Game 5, I should really have finished him early with hydras. Also, because so many fans showed up for that match, the game booth was literally steaming from their collective body heat. I could not see because my glasses fogged up. I was also distracted by the thought of pausing the game and possibly being forced to forfeit if defogging my glasses was not a KeSPA-approved reason for pausing. I believe Jangbi was fated by the heavens to win that match.
Q: How much did Hanbit/Woongjin front office personnel interfere with build order selection in Proleague games? Did you feel any resentment about the fact that losses due to build orders selected by people with amateurish knowledge of StarCraft led to lower salaries and undervaluation of your skills as a player? A: They often dictated parts of build selection, but I often deviated from such directives because winning was too important to me. After all, it was my own win-loss record at stake. However, I feel that this may have put me in the doghouse, especially when I experienced slumps. I could ignore such orders because I had gotten a “big head” after achieving good results, but B-teamers would not have dared to disobey.
Q: Were the coaches good at StarCraft? Were they as good as Coach January from Samsung Khan? A: Our coaches would have been the equivalent of E-level (on a scale from A to F) players back in the day...so not very good.
Q: What was Soulkey to you in the past and what is he to you in the present? Is he just an uglier version of you? A: He was the most trustworthy player on Woongjin. On Woongjin, he was the only one with whom I could discuss strategy. My trust in him was so absolute that if he told me that a particular strategy or build was good, I could follow his advice without testing it myself. Today, he is just like a cute little brother. A cute brother who is uglier than me.
Q: What was your favorite StarCraft pro game, not played by yourself? A: I think that StarCraft in the early days was the most fun to watch. I loved to watch Boxer versus Yellow.
Q: What was your favorite memory from your progamer days? A: I miss living in the team house with my friends. We shared many good and bad times together. It did not hurt that they fed us three times a day.
Present StarCraft & Strategy:
Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why? A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Q: What do you think are the map features that are necessary for balancing the TvZ matchup? A: First, Zerg needs spots to safely place overlords for vision. Second, rush distances cannot be too long or too short. They must be just right. Third, it should not be possible to wall in the natural expansion. There must be more expansions with gas. In particular, it should be easier for Zerg to take the third or fourth gas. Aztec is a map that has many of these features. A backyard mineral-only expansion, like on Neo Electric Circuit, helps Zerg as well.
Q: You are surprisingly effective against Protoss on Paradoxxx. Why do you think that is the case? A: I think that younger gamers just don’t know how to play on Paradoxxx and island maps in general. I find that it is difficult to beat players on Paradoxx if they have experience with island maps.
Q: It seems that, when given a choice, you prefer macro-oriented maps that are slightly unfavorable to Zerg over strategy-oriented maps that are slightly favorable to Zerg. Are you that confident in your macro game? A: I do not lack confidence in my mutalisk control, but I feel uncomfortable staking the outcome of the game on that, which is often the case with games on strategy-oriented maps. I would rather play a macro-oriented game instead.
Q: How did you come up with the strategy of using Infested Terrans against Kal on Holy World? A: I saw the command center in the middle and figured that this was what the map maker wanted me to do. I wanted to play a game that would leave an impact on fans.
Q: How did you come up with the strategy of using queens in your games? A: When no one else I was thinking about queens, I often consciously thought about ways to use queens in games because I was nicknamed “The Queen’s Son”. It started out as a way to leave a good impression on fans and turned into something more.
Q: What do you think are the stylistic differences between ZerO, EffOrt, hero, and Jaedong? A: Hero’s style is very similar to mine. Jaedong is the most aggressive and his style is the complete opposite of mine. Effort is aggressive like Jaedong, but less so because he is a bit more flexible. If hero and I play in ways that make the game easier for us, Effort plays in ways that make the game more difficult for his opponent.
Q: What is the best way to use the function keys (saved map positions)? A: I use them for the main, natural, and expansions. For Zerg, this is all that is needed since all of our units are produced from hatcheries.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
Personal Questions Regarding the Present & Future:
Q: Could you explain, in as much detail as possible, the reasons behind your non-participation in ASL2? A: The main reason is that I did not want to perform in front of fans when my condition was terrible. It takes at least four hours to travel from my home to the studio. By the time I arrive, I am usually very tired and sometimes ill. I experienced severe headaches during the last offline league. I want to show the fans my play when I am not handicapped by poor conditions.
Interviewer's Note: Although he does not mention it here, it also costs him almost 200 dollars to make the round trip. His fans have offered to pay the cost of the trips, so it does not seem to have been the main reason. Another fan offered to pay for hotel expenses so that he could travel one day early to games. However, according to ZerO, that would prevent him from practicing as much on the travel day. Perhaps one solution would be for Kongdoo to set up a bedroom for travelling players. Bisu has often streamed from the Kongdoo studio in the past, so it seems like a space where players could practice the day before an offline game and get a good night's sleep.
Q: What needs to be done to make league participation more attractive for the many skilled low-income players residing far from Seoul? A: I honestly think that there’s not much that can be done at this point. The distance and the toll that imposes on gamers is the main culprit here.
Q: When will you start fulfilling your military service requirements? A: I will start my service on May 11, 2017.
Q: At what point will it be impossible for you to stream or play in tournaments? A: I will play in the next offline league if the finals will be played before I begin my service. Since it would be the last offline league for me, I would like to participate regardless of my condition or how far I must travel.
Q: What do you think that you will be doing in 10-20 years? A: Honestly, I have no idea what I will be doing in three years, let alone ten. I would like to try new things, but my life experience has been narrowly confined to areas related to professional gaming. When I try to imagine what I would be doing in ten years, I just draw a blank. Most progamers are in the same boat as me in this regard.
Q: How are you preparing to make a living for the remainder of your life? A: I am not preparing at the moment because I have no idea what I might be doing in the future. For now, I will try hard to make the most of the opportunities available to me today.
Q: It has been rumored that you have a beautiful girlfriend who is 10 years younger than you. How often do you go on dates and what do you usually do? A: She’s actually only 6 years younger than me. We do not get to go on dates as often as we would like because she and I are both busy. She is a university student and I stream almost every day. When we can, we try to make time for quick impromptu dates with dinner and coffee.
Interviewer's Note: This is his girlfriend challenging and beating Bisu. Bisu played with a 4 probe handicap and used only one hand. She was formerly one of ZerO's top 20 balloon donors. Perhaps someone should have asked ZerO about the secrets of his pickup game. + Show Spoiler +
Fun Questions & Wrapping up:
Q: Could you draw a self-portrait for us? A: Yes.
Q: What are 3 things you would bring to a desert island (no boat allowed)? A: I have never been asked such a question before. Could you give me some choices? I am terrible at open-ended questions. My smartphone, charger, and a computer. My creativity needs some work...
Q: Bro, do you even lift? A: Yes. I used to lift very sporadically when I lived in the team house. Also, I lifted some weights to prepare for the physical test I needed to pass in order to enlist in the military police.
Q: Calm and Justin Bieber, separated at birth? A: Yes. They do look very similar. I am actually angry that this question was asked. How come no one ever compares me to good looking guys? They only ever compare me to this female comedian in Korea. (He calmed down after I explained that Justin Bieber is actually a frequent target of mockery in North America).
Q: What/how do Zerg eat? A: Um...I don’t know anything about this. Do I need to use my creativity again? Since they look like monsters, perhaps they eat Terrans like in the Alien movies.
Q: What was your first impression of foreign fans when you met them at Blizzcon 2009? A: I have been to the US exactly once. It was really fantastic. The atmosphere was electric and like nothing I experienced before or since. Fans would explode into cheers just because I waved my hand. I definitely want to experience playing in such an atmosphere once more. The trip gave me a very positive impression of the US.
Q: Anything you want to say to your foreign fans? A: Please subscribe to my failed YouTube channel. All joking aside, thank you for your interest and support. It’s amazing to me that there are people in other countries who root for me. I don’t know how long I will be able to continue playing StarCraft, but I hope that you will continue to watch and cheer me on.
Q: Who are the people who most influenced your game style and development as a player? A: When I first joined Hanbit Stars (later Woongjin Stars), my seat in the practice room was next to a player named Shin Jeong-min. He taught me many things including how to best use group keys and adjust game settings. Because he played an “affluent” macro-oriented style that I liked, I naturally gravitated toward him.
Q: Who are the people who most influenced your game style and development as a player? A: When I first joined Hanbit Stars (later Woongjin Stars), my seat in the practice room was next to a player named Shin Jeong-min. He taught me many things including how to best use group keys and adjust game settings. Because he played an “affluent” macro-oriented style that I liked, I naturally gravitated toward him.
Interesting that he said TvZ balance is due to marine micro being > muta micro. Wish you had a follow up question on the lategame mech switch since I think that's what most people thought lead to the imbalance on certain maps like FS. I guess he thinks mech isn't that difficult to deal with when you have an eco lead, but mutalisk can't do enough in the early game to secure an economic advantage if Terran players are perfect with their marine control.
Q: How did you come up with the strategy of using Infested Terrans against Kal on Holy World? A: I saw the command center in the middle and figured that this was what the map maker wanted me to do. I wanted to play a game that would leave an impact on fans.
Great interview! Zero's so cute when he's ashamed by his supposed lack of creativity.
Sad to hear about his ASL travel distance troubles, he has been my favourite Zerg in the post-Kespa era. Would have been nice to see him advance far in what probably would have been his last major tournament before enrolling, especially with + Show Spoiler +
Effort and Soulkey flaming out early.
(There won't be any big offline tournaments that finish before May, right?)
On January 05 2017 01:23 neobowman wrote: HE DRAWS HIMSELF! That's it. It's all downhill from here.
Super great interview. He gives a lot of super fun answers and not the standard progamer fare. Awesome job.
Also, is there a list of youtube channels for streamers? I'd like to sub to more of them if possible.
nope, but not a bad idea to make one ^^
On January 05 2017 05:08 KatjaKean wrote: Great interview! Zero's so cute when he's ashamed by his supposed lack of creativity.
Sad to hear about his ASL travel distance troubles, he has been my favourite Zerg in the post-Kespa era. Would have been nice to see him advance far in what probably would have been his last major tournament before enrolling, especially with + Show Spoiler +
Effort and Soulkey flaming out early.
(There won't be any big offline tournaments that finish before May, right?)
Quite unlikely though it really depends on when the next season of ASL is announced.
On January 05 2017 06:48 L1ghtning wrote: Wasn't he considered the best ZvM (mech) player back in the day? Maybe that's why he's not too bothered by the increasing popularity of mech play.
On January 05 2017 03:14 f10eqq wrote: Interesting that he said TvZ balance is due to marine micro being > muta micro. Wish you had a follow up question on the lategame mech switch since I think that's what most people thought lead to the imbalance on certain maps like FS. I guess he thinks mech isn't that difficult to deal with when you have an eco lead, but mutalisk can't do enough in the early game to secure an economic advantage if Terran players are perfect with their marine control.
Yes, it was a bit confusing. He actually said that the thinks that it is impossible for a zerg to beat a good terran due to marine micro>muta micro. When i read that i thought that he was talking about the development of today (like i think the questioner was referring to). My heart therefore sunk a bit. But then he points out that he believes that the balance was worse during the kespa era because of the longer practice schedule and therefore better marine micro. So basically what he was saying was that in general t>z, which is no news and not a problem since p>t and z>p. He also finished the paragraph by saying that he "actually thinks that tvz balance is okay nowadays".
Recently Hero showed us that the late mech switch can convincingly be dealt with in the Ro16 against Last and Jaedong vs Mong aswell. But i'm not an expert on the matter.
Also a confusing term is "strategy maps" as oppsoed to macro maps. In korea they use the word "strategy" to describe what we would call "cheese".
I like how frank he is. A shame I did not keep up with BW while he was still playing post-KeSPa given he's leaving so soon. Thanks for the interview. ZerO still a hero to me after all these years.
Thank you for all the great work. ZerO is awesome as well. Some thoughts.
1) Mental fortitude
I was always hearing good things about ZerO during practice. I was wondering why in this era where some of the more mediocre zergs in terms of overall skill were having not that much difficulty having relatively good success in individual leagues, ZerO was always being more a staple appearance in the round of 16 than any other zergs who made their debut in the modern era (zergs who made their debut after 2007), yet failed to progress far into the latter stages of the individual leagues until very end of Brood War.
I guess I thought he had trouble demonstrating his full gaming capacity on televised games. From his answer, it seems like he actually didn't have much issue with stage fright, or being on tilt. However, his demeanor during streams, and his answer about his mindset during practice seems to highlight a potential cause for this disparity of what was being rumoured of his skills during practice, and what he was actually achieving as a professional gamer.
A matter of life and death. Some really did approach the game in this matter. They had to win no matter of. Jaedong was a prime example of this. Judging by his answer, maybe ZerO was displaying a good proportion of his skill on televised games, but perhaps he just played another game of Brood War, while his opponents were doing everything in their power to win. Coupled with his tendencies to focus more on his own game, and letting his opponents take the initiative, and not caring that much about disrupting their flow of the game, his relative lackadaisical approach to high pressure games may have caused what I perceived to be his lack of success compared to his pure gaming abilities.
2) TvZ balance
Nobody can debate that the level of execution was higher during the professional era. However, even before the introduction of the late-mech strategy, the terran race as a whole were doing fine against zergs as a whole. There were numerous periods where the imbalance approached an 6:4 ratio in favour of terran, even when we set the minimal time frame to a year to gain sufficient data. Even during 2009, when there were non-stop zerg versus zerg finals, and Flash lost terribly to ZerO and SoulKey during practice when he tried out pure bionic play against them, the terran race was basically even against zergs in terms of overall statistics.
Of course, there is always the argument that the level of balance shifts according to the level of the players. Jaedong was almost untouchable if you tried to win versus him with conventional standard bionic play on reasonably balanced maps. However, I would argue that Jaedong had mastered the execution of that match-up to a higher degree than any other zergs, and terran players had mastered the execution of pure bionic play. When Light played standard bionic games versus Jaedong, he would often push Jaedong to the limit, and sometimes manage to outmuscle him in a pure multi-tasking battle in this most intensive battle of mechanics (the demands of an intensive bionic game versus zergs often yielded the highest eAPM numbers from both sides of the race).
For example in team melee, or micro/macro UMS played by the professionals, you'll see how frightening effective well managed bionic troops can be even against the might of Jaedong's mutalisks with other professionals taking care of the base.
In my eyes, the TvZ match-up right before the rise of late-mech wasn't broken (sure, if you take into account the balance of the other match-ups, zergs being even against terrans would make them over-powered in the overall scheme of things, but a 50/50 split in a match-up is as fair as it gets in terms of balance for the match-up specifically, and makes that match-up a battle of skill and execution). A terran player with the mechanical mastery of all things related to bionic play (basically an upgraded version of Light) would have been fine versus Jaedong in my opinion. It would have been an even split.
Late-mech allowed terran players to have less mechanical demands, as well as having the strategical upper hand, and I think ZerO is right in saying that terran players of today don't even come close to having the standard bionic abilities when they were fighting for their lives to have a 50/50 balance versus zergs. If terran players of today incorporated some of the bionic play seen in the professional era, as well as abusing the meta-game advancements that happened since then, the match-up will be broken beyond repair (unless we see another huge meta-game advancement from the zerg side), in my personal opinion.
3) The styles of various top zerg players.
Almost all zergs seem to agree with this, the spectrum is as follows.
Jaedong-EffOrt-ZerO/SoulKey
4) Aztec is a good map for zergs.
I don't think Aztec is a map that is built for zergs. Rather, it is a map that kills terrans. There are so many features about this map that makes it difficult for terrans against both zergs, and even harder protoss. It's a very good map for protoss in general. I don't think they made this map to help zergs. We know how much the people behind the scenes hate ZvZ.
I love ZerO. He was my second favourite zerg during the modern era of Brood War even when EffOrt became the centre of attention with his miraculous 3-2 victory over Flash. If you go over my past history, years back, you'll often see me gushing at ZerO's late-game ability. I was less of an EffOrt fan, probably because ZerO was on the other side of the spectrum, and during Jaedong's relative decline in skill (not in absolute terms, but relatively speaking, he was so much more ahead it wasn't even funny) during the very end of Brood War, ZerO had some aspects of the zerg race mastered better than Jaedong. EffOrt was a different kind of beast, very talented with his clever zergling movements and on-the-spot decision making and mind games, and won games probably left his opponents thinking "Wow. I just got played."
Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote: Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm.
The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with.
On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote: Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm.
The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with.
How are the players hands measured? I want to measure my own hand as a relative reference point for comparison.
On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote: Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Jaedong actually has one of the smallest hands out of any professional gamers. His hand measures at 18 cm, which is quite smaller than the average figure 20.7cm for all Brood War professionals. FanTaSy, Rumble, and PuSan have some of the biggest hands, with hands that measure at 24 cm.
The more look into the career of Jaedong, the more amazed I am of the rigours he must have went through to overcome the numerous unfavourable conditions he had to start off with.
How are the players hands measured? I want to measure my own hand as a relative reference point for comparison.
I actually have no idea, but I'm taller/have bigger hands than most of my friends (who are Korean), so I don't think it's just wrist to the ends of your third finger. Perhaps they are the measurements of the absolute maximum reach you can create with your hands from your thumb to your ring finger. I can manage 23 cm.
As another option, it could be the reach from your little finger to your thumb, which makes sense as that's probably the way in which professional players set up their hotkeys (with their little finger on control, and their thumbs on the bumbers). I can manage 22 cm this way. This is probably the most likely measurement.
On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote: Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
You´re right. Im unsure what would be the best option here. Maybe a Kespa Merchandise Store. A DVD Collection of past Seasons. Ways to directly support teams or players through the stream like that Balloon System.
Like yourself i never really paid for the streams i watched. Kinda feels bad now.
On January 05 2017 11:38 Harem wrote: Also, I think whoever asked the following question was confusing zero with Jaedong as JD actually doesn't even use the last few hotkeys on his keyboard.
Q: How do you use less group hotkeys than other Zergs and still become known as a fundamentally macro-based player? A: This question is a bit puzzling. I actually use all of my group hotkeys. I use 4~0 for my hatcheries. I often keep 4 hotkeyed to a hatchery even when my army gets large because I don’t like re-assigning the key if I can avoid it.
Jaedong: I never use the last three numbers on the keyboard. Flash: That’s quite a rarity. It’s hard to master Zerg without extensive keyboard usage you see. He’s similar to Savior in that respect. Jaedong: That’s right. Flash: You’d think that these two players have similar hotkey usage due to their limitations in hand size, but they couldn’t be more different from each other.
Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
Brilliant interview, one of the best ones by far. Don't worry ZerO, I think I'm going to get kicked to military this year too if I won't make a plan to escape again
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
On your second point, sAviOr was quoted spreading his matchfixing ring to allow low-earning players to actually make more money from the game, given how elements that weren't related to their skill (such as looks, as mentioned many times by Britney) were used to keep them off A-teams or keep them from televised games. Looking at type-b's story in particular, facts supporting this theory seem to add up.
On January 05 2017 11:58 iSometric wrote: Always been a fan of Zero! I wished they did interviews like this years ago
Blame the Korean presentation being aimed towards women.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
On your second point, sAviOr was quoted spreading his matchfixing ring to allow low-earning players to actually make more money from the game, given how elements that weren't related to their skill (such as looks, as mentioned many times by Britney) were used to keep them off A-teams or keep them from televised games. Looking at type-b's story in particular, facts supporting this theory seem to add up.
On January 05 2017 11:58 iSometric wrote: Always been a fan of Zero! I wished they did interviews like this years ago
Blame the Korean presentation being aimed towards women.
Let me see if this adds up. So I guess he was trying to give more financial support to XellOs as well, the rookie terran player who was struggling to make his impact on the scene since making his debut in 2001, considering how he tried to make him participate in match-fixing. Or how he took the time to contact players from other teams, such as STX SouL, in order to save the struggling career of Hwasin (the best paid member of the team). I guess Hwasin must have been a pretty ugly dude who only got his sick salary off being by far the best terran player ever, and managed to sustain his living thanks to sAviOr. He must have been a very kind, and loving person to his fellow professional gamers, and must be adored by everyone for his wholesome personality.
How deluded are you to believe the excuses of the guy who used his personal connections to bring down the careers of not only his teammates, but players from other teams? Do you know how many people he asked to be involved in match-fixing? Do you really think that he targetted people without much interest from the betting sites? You do realize how match-fixing works right? In what universe can sAviOr's actions be explained by how he wanted to help the financial circumstances of low-earning players? Do you even realize how many careers of low-earning professional players were ruined by the match-fixing incident?
I don't even know what sAviOr said, but all of the things I have said were proven in court. If whatever crazy excuses sAviOr came up made you believe in his sociopathic justification of his actions, good for you, but I know what every single streamers on Afreeca had to say on sAviOr as a person, not just his involvement in the match-fixing, and I know every details of what he actually did that were proven to be guilty in the court of justice. It doesn't add up. If sAviOr really said that about his motivations for being involved in match-fixing just to save his own face in front of the thousands of fans who still desperately wanted to worship him as a hero, then he must be more sociopathic than I initially thought.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
On January 05 2017 18:10 parkufarku wrote: Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
When he says that TvZ balance was worse in the KeSPA days, I think that he is talking about a theoretical absolute balance rather than empirical relative balance. As he mentioned, leagues used maps to balance the matchups in practice. This means that even if the theoretical absolute balance was worse, Zerg still had a chance against good Terran thanks to maps evening things out. So I guess Flash can keep his awards?
When he says that TvZ balance is okay now, I think that he is saying that Zerg has a chance against good Terrans on more maps than before. This is evidenced by Terran pros who whine about Blue Storm and Tau Cross because of mutalisks (and, in the case of Tau Cross, also the difficulty of making the late mech switch).
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
If it makes you feel better, 1&2s pursuit is to get the massive amount of 3s on board.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
Probably because he is also a donor. He mentioned it in his own post below:
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
I really dislike words like "scene" and concepts such as "useless fucks", that I believe might stem from a certain toxic piece on the cycle of scenes that I've seen circulated. Nothing is improved by being taken too seriously. If viewing a match that is available for free as entertainment is a preposterous act, I don't know how anything can ever be compatible with the outside world. One day BW will die and till then people should watch it if they find it fun.
On January 06 2017 10:43 neptunusfisk wrote: I really dislike words like "scene" and concepts such as "useless fucks", that I believe might stem from a certain toxic piece on the cycle of scenes that I've seen circulated. Nothing is improved by being taken too seriously. If viewing a match that is available for free as entertainment is a preposterous act, I don't know how anything can ever be compatible with the outside world. One day BW will die and till then people should watch it if they find it fun.
You're free to watch it. You're free to earn money from it. You're free to help in whatever financial capacity you have. But let's not pretend to be anything more than what we are. I think useless fucks is the appropriate phrase considering how people failed to collectively stop Blizzard from crippling Brood War permanently. Watching free content that you personally enjoy is not a heinous act. Just like you said, just watch it for free until it dies, and move on, like you have done, and like you will do.
It's from a news article back when the media covered all aspects of professional Brood War. Considering Flash had his brain analysed by fMRI, hand measurements were hardly ground breaking information.
Q: What were the mistakes you made in the Tving 2012 semifinals against Jangbi? A: In Game 4, I made one fewer drone than I did in practice using that build. I wonder how many more hydras I could have made if I had that extra drone. Also, the two-lurker drop I attempted near the end of the game was a total failure that gave Jangbi the timing to attack. Other than that, I knew that I was in trouble once he started moving out with his “hanbang”. In Game 5, I should really have finished him early with hydras. Also, because so many fans showed up for that match, the game booth was literally steaming from their collective body heat. I could not see because my glasses fogged up. I was also distracted by the thought of pausing the game and possibly being forced to forfeit if defogging my glasses was not a KeSPA-approved reason for pausing. I believe Jangbi was fated by the heavens to win that
Wow, that is just sick. This shows how messed up some of the KeSPA rules may have been...
Anyways, big thanks for this interview! So much interesting content in there.
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
It's what the scene has turned into. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's what KeSPA did with their power. It's what Blizzard did with their power. It's what the current generous donators do today. The difference is, KeSPA abandoned Brood War once it became less profitable, and Blizzard used it to put an end to professional Brood War. For all the despicable things you blame the donators of doing, they are the sole reason we are able to watch Brood War content. The level some of the streamers have to stoop to are the consequences of our inaction when Blizzard ended professional Brood War, it's what happens random people with money to spare get the power in place of KeSPA.
Nobody is saying the current scene is perfect, or even okay, from the heights it once had. It's pretty fucking far from okay. However, it's all we have. You speak of a brighter future for Brood War, a more reasonable way to sustain Brood War. May I ask, how much did you do to help Brood War personally? What gives you the moral high ground over these down right rotten donators that makes clowns out of these streamers.
Good fans? What defines a good fan? Someone who realizes the ways in which a healthy scene should be going in, yet does nothing about it? Where were the good fans when Blizzard took the entire scene to the ground? Where were the good fans to stop these despicable donators making clowns out of the streamers? Where were you all?
Probably because he is also a donor. He mentioned it in his own post below:
On January 05 2017 09:50 tanngard wrote: Q: In the current Brood War scene, the rich seem to get richer and the poor seem to get poorer. Why is it impossible for the players to get together systematically and planned (as opposed to improvised) content and split the profits? A: I think that everyone is too scared to try something new. If we were to organize a league, I feel confident that many people would watch. However, you have to understand how terrifying such an attempt would be for most of us. Our experiences are so limited.
This is an interesting topic. I think it something wrong when you look over at the sidebar and some players have thousands of viewers and others can barely get over 50.
But it seems to me that those few koreans that watches the less popular streamers are very supporting (at least counting balloons). Or maybe thats just my impression from watching Snow's stream and paying intent attention to how many balloons he is receiving whenever he is online (because i really want it to work out for him). Its pretty insane compared to foreigners on twitch. I mean in terms of sheer number of viewers, the most popular players like eonzerg would be around the same amount of viewers as someone as Snow on Afreeca. Yet when you compare the amount of donations, then its a big difference. When i watch Snow's stream, even though he has only around 30-40 viewers, he is getting like something like lets say... 300 balloons in an hour. That means that these few koreans are really chipping in! Off course it is unfair to compare former BW professionals to foreigner hobby players, since the former had a much more dedicated followers since they were basically pros at what was a TV sport on a big scale. I mean all of these ex.pros had their fans and were literal heroes for many people. I doubt you could say that about someone in the foreigner scene post sc2.
But is it enough to live off? Snow is pretty new on Afreeca and i guess the amount of balloons he will receive will become less with time (if not more people tune in that is). I remember this thread by classicalyellow83:
The amount some of these are making per month is close or around to a liveable salary. Even Free and Mind made 3-4 times liveable monthly salary and they have never been huge streamers (like around 100-300 normally).
Does that mean that if you were an A-teamer in kespa era (ensuring some dedicated fans), but you only average around 50 viewers on Afreeca (Movie, Leta, Firebathero, Hoejja, Soulkey etc) that you still can make enough to live off streaming alone? Is there already a debate about this in korea? I just dont get the logic with loading all the money on a select few. I mean if only 10-12 players can play BW without having to have a regular job, wouldn't the scene starve itself out? You wont even have competitive Ro16 and it will alway be the same players advancing etc. Won't be healty for the scene in the long term and then noone will make much money.
And should it all be about the money? What about their legacy? Imagine if these big streamers would have taken some heavy initiative and followed up on the dreams of Sonic (looking passed his shortcomings). Created teams, shared money from the top to the bottom, invested in new players and coaching them. Instead its every man grabbing as much for himself and offline leagues will probably die out in not too many years when most of these players have to retire. But like Zero said - they are very scared. They dont have an education and the future is uncertain. So its understandable that you want to get as much money for yourself and your family (Shuttle has a kid). And who amongst them would have the authority to lead in such an organizational adventure? I am sorry, I cannot judge them.
And who am i to complaint? How much money have i sent to the korean players since watching them since 2008? Close to nothing. I watched it for free year after year, while these young kids gave up everything for our entertainment, every dream we had of being the best at something or having deep insight into a subject - we put on their shoulders and what did we give back? But did we know how to give back (monetary wise)? I dont want this to be a complaint to anyone other then myself really. Plenty of people on this site have given back by creating content for TL.net and most of us wouldn't have been sucked into korean BW without it so i am definitively thankful towards them.
There is many questions here that is unanswered. Is it too late to start sharing and give back? Hmm..sorry for the long post
There are three types of people in Brood War.
1) Those who want success for Brood War. Generous Korean fans who donated their hard earned money to sustain the streaming careers of what was perceived as gamers of a doomed game forever banned by Blizzard. Players like BoxeR who tried his hardest to grow with the scene, not taking whatever opportunities he had as one of the most famous faces in Korea (not just as a gamer, but as a celebrity in general), and being the best representative of a scene we could ever hope for.
2) Those who want success through Brood War. Those who only use the success of the overall scene only when it suits them. Players like sAviOr who betrayed the trust of the entire team that helped him in whatever way to grow as a player, people in the industry that treated him like a god and promoted lores about him that still influence our very views on him as a player today, and the fans who made him one of the few professional gamers to transcend the realm of professional Brood War, and be a household name in Korea. Vultures who only see Brood War as a means to make their pockets fuller.
3) Useless fucks who might as well not exist. People who just add the numbers when the scene has good viewership. People who cannot stop injustice. People who cannot help the scene in times of trouble. People who go through the good times and the bad as a mere spectator from the sides. People like me.
You're exaggerating a bit, I think. I will also exaggerate a bit to balance things out.
If you watch AfreecaTV, some of those "generous Korean fans" you mentioned are engaging in some truly despicable acts. Some of them use money to turn players into clowns and fools. Some of them use money to play king and abuse regular viewers. It's not all roses.
Of course, there are some fans who do try to grow the Starcraft scene. While others have put in more, I think that I am qualified to say this since I also put a lot of money into Starcraft (sponsoring tournaments, balloon matches, etc.) and got to know many insiders pretty well. However, in the end, without the players' own initiative, it is mostly wasted money with respect to the revival of the scene. I don't think it was wasted money in the sense that I learned many interesting things and enjoyed the games I got to watch, but as far as helping BW, it did not make a big difference. Rather than donating directly to the players, I think that perhaps donating to people who will use that money to organize things on behalf of the players more effective. Finding corporate sponsors, like KCM is trying to do, is more helpful to the health of the scene. Some day, I would like to write about AfreecaTV balloon economics and many of the common patterns and prevalent trends in balloon donations to BW players. It's pretty fascinating and somewhat depressing at the same time.
Honestly, the "useless fucks" you are so down on are far more important to the viability of BW than "generous Korean fans" as long as they are great in number. Fans who enjoy the games and do not shit on players are very important to a healthy scene. So please don't call good fans useless fucks even if you are trying to be self-deprecating by referring to yourself as such.
Not just a donor, but he has also held meetings with sponsors across the world trying to make deals that will help create Korean Leagues.
On January 05 2017 03:14 f10eqq wrote: Interesting that he said TvZ balance is due to marine micro being > muta micro. Wish you had a follow up question on the lategame mech switch since I think that's what most people thought lead to the imbalance on certain maps like FS. I guess he thinks mech isn't that difficult to deal with when you have an eco lead, but mutalisk can't do enough in the early game to secure an economic advantage if Terran players are perfect with their marine control.
Yes, it was a bit confusing. He actually said that the thinks that it is impossible for a zerg to beat a good terran due to marine micro>muta micro. When i read that i thought that he was talking about the development of today (like i think the questioner was referring to). My heart therefore sunk a bit. But then he points out that he believes that the balance was worse during the kespa era because of the longer practice schedule and therefore better marine micro. So basically what he was saying was that in general t>z, which is no news and not a problem since p>t and z>p. He also finished the paragraph by saying that he "actually thinks that tvz balance is okay nowadays".
Recently Hero showed us that the late mech switch can convincingly be dealt with in the Ro16 against Last and Jaedong vs Mong aswell. But i'm not an expert on the matter.
Also a confusing term is "strategy maps" as oppsoed to macro maps. In korea they use the word "strategy" to describe what we would call "cheese".
it has been a problem in maps like fs. Zerg's winrate shot up when they started playong on different maps. We really need to start getting rid of fs and placing circuit breaker instead.
On January 05 2017 18:10 parkufarku wrote: Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
When he says that TvZ balance was worse in the KeSPA days, I think that he is talking about a theoretical absolute balance rather than empirical relative balance. As he mentioned, leagues used maps to balance the matchups in practice. This means that even if the theoretical absolute balance was worse, Zerg still had a chance against good Terran thanks to maps evening things out. So I guess Flash can keep his awards?
When he says that TvZ balance is okay now, I think that he is saying that Zerg has a chance against good Terrans on more maps than before. This is evidenced by Terran pros who whine about Blue Storm and Tau Cross because of mutalisks (and, in the case of Tau Cross, also the difficulty of making the late mech switch).
There's no such thing as two different types of balance. Yes maps were used to help balance, but when that happens, you know one race is stronger than another, its a sign of admission. And the fact that a race can abuse a map more (cliffs on natural = death for Z / P) just meant that the race itself is inherently faulty and broken.
He's not saying TvZ is ok now, but he's saying it's bad, and it was even worse back in Kespa days (when Flash won his awards).
You can deny all you want, but Zero is right. A good Terran will not lose to a good Zerg unless he makes mistakes / gets heavily outplayed. It's too bad BW is decades old; Terran should've been nerfed but they never had good community feedback back then.
On January 05 2017 18:10 parkufarku wrote: Q: It appears that TvZ has tilted too far in favor of Terran. How much of an advantage does Terran have these days? Why?
A: I think that there is no way to beat a good Terran as Zerg. This is mainly because good mutalisk micro just cannot beat good marine-medic micro. It is almost natural that this is the case since marines have longer range. I actually think that TvZ balance was worse back in the KeSPA era because everyone’s physical abilities were at their peaks. That was why leagues kept trotting out maps unfavorable to Terran in those days. I think that TvZ balance is actually okay these days because marine-medic micro is not as sharp as it used to be.
Thank you Zero. We always knew TvZ was vastly imbalanced matchup, especially in the Kespa days. Flash should be required to give back some of his awards.
When he says that TvZ balance was worse in the KeSPA days, I think that he is talking about a theoretical absolute balance rather than empirical relative balance. As he mentioned, leagues used maps to balance the matchups in practice. This means that even if the theoretical absolute balance was worse, Zerg still had a chance against good Terran thanks to maps evening things out. So I guess Flash can keep his awards?
When he says that TvZ balance is okay now, I think that he is saying that Zerg has a chance against good Terrans on more maps than before. This is evidenced by Terran pros who whine about Blue Storm and Tau Cross because of mutalisks (and, in the case of Tau Cross, also the difficulty of making the late mech switch).
There's no such thing as two different types of balance. Yes maps were used to help balance, but when that happens, you know one race is stronger than another, its a sign of admission. And the fact that a race can abuse a map more (cliffs on natural = death for Z / P) just meant that the race itself is inherently faulty and broken.
He's not saying TvZ is ok now, but he's saying it's bad, and it was even worse back in Kespa days (when Flash won his awards).
You can deny all you want, but Zero is right. A good Terran will not lose to a good Zerg unless he makes mistakes / gets heavily outplayed. It's too bad BW is decades old; Terran should've been nerfed but they never had good community feedback back then.
You only need a bit of imagination to conceive of different notions of balance. The adjectives I used make that clear. Which one is the more useful notion depends on your objective.
Analogy: You can theorize that a coin flip has 50% chance of coming up heads. You can flip the coin 200 times under various real-life conditions and observe 117 heads.
I do tend to agree with you that TvZ is pretty darn tough for Zerg though at the pro level.
However, ZerO definitely said that the balance was okay these days. It's in the interview. Okay doesn't mean great or even good, but it's better than bad, right? His feelings might be different if Fighting Spirit was still the default map for balloon matches. Thankfully, Fighting Spirit is no longer being played as much as it used to be in balloon matches.