Thorin's Thoughts - The Brood War Revival (BW) - Page 3
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Ziggy
South Korea2104 Posts
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
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Rigodon666
Canada183 Posts
On January 21 2017 02:19 Roggay wrote: The video is clearly not aimed at the TL crowd. Get over it. Lol we are over it, it's just that it was posted on TL and they asked for our comments haha. | ||
JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
Not to mention the current scene doesn't have the capacity to force new maps anymore, ASL is mostly using old maps and a few new maps that are more or less reskins of old KESPA maps, we aren't seeing the more adventurous type of map anymore, and we most likely aren't going to either, but this is a bit off topic Yes, the infrastructure needed to make and test new maps, especially those labeled "adventurous" (think Baekmagoji, Tears of the Moon, Geometry, 815, DMZ [infamous 2v2 map], Triathlon, Fantasy, Outlier, etc.) doesn't exist anymore. It seems like some map making teams (yes the Koreans had this, unlike the foreign scene, since they were competitively trying to get their maps into the pro scene somehow) have kinda fallen apart or members have left or moved on. I say this because even Latías (Demian's creator and from AGAIN map team) has reached out to us here at TL and BWMN, something that would have never happened in KESPA era. KESPA would have these adventurous maps tested and the most imbalanced ones (or oftentimes the ones the pros complained the most about) removed from the mappool. The desire for spectators to see the game played differently and spicing things up led to a demand for new maps, with some being very bold in their concepts. Seems like the ASL has had submissions for new maps though, which is why we see Demian in the pool. The level of mapmaking has not gone down actually. If anything, ideas are just a bit dry. If you consider how bad some of Rose.of.Dream's maps have been (especially his most recent ones), I'd say this allows new map makers more opportunities to get their maps played in future tournaments, which is a good thing, and can actually lead to high quality maps (such as Demian, again). A sad loss for the BW scene, however, and is something not many people think about or give credit to, is the end of the OMAT (Ongamenet Map Architect Team), which I think Rose.of.Dream was a part of. They actually came through with some fun maps and interesting ways to execute older or more standard concepts. Some of their ideas were just bad and imbalanced, while some were pretty cool. All in all, they experimented and as a result they influenced other map makers and influenced the meta as a result. People think pro gamers lead the way in the meta, but I'd argue that map makers play a decent role, as well. If this is true, then we can still expect some evolution in the meta (whereas some, like Bisu, think most if not all options have been already figured out for each match up). So then I end with saying this: New maps are also important for keeping the BW scene alive and influencing the meta. There are still map makers out there, in Korea and in the foreign scene, who are actively making maps. We will see less experimental maps in the future since there is no structure or system for testing them at the highest level (this one is a real shame, imo). | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19041 Posts
In regards to the post above mine on maps, new maps are slowly working their way in. In fact, zero among a few other players actually enjoy some of the better foreign maps like Overwatch which will be played in the TL.net fight club. TL.net fight club is another big thing. We are pushing the limit with 4 foreign maps out of the bo9. As more money comes in and I can sponsor these matches with a bigger pool, then the influence of these new maps will makes its way across the scene. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 21 2017 04:05 BisuDagger wrote: OT: I see nothing wrong with this video. Thorin has always had nice words about the scene. In regards to the post above mine on maps, new maps are slowly working their way in. In fact, zero among a few other players actually enjoy some of the better foreign maps like Overwatch which will be played in the TL.net fight club. TL.net fight club is another big thing. We are pushing the limit with 4 foreign maps out of the bo9. As more money comes in and I can sponsor these matches with a bigger pool, then the influence of these new maps will makes its way across the scene. I'm not concerned that we aren't going to see new maps, I'm concerned that 1. Future maps will be reskins of popular maps like Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit 2. Even if we get really good, potentially even crazy new maps, the players aren't going to actually make new strategies for these maps, they are just going to slightly alter their old builds to suit their new maps, this is the major shame of not having the KESPA team structure anymore, we are unlikely to see many well practiced and refined map specific strategies. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19041 Posts
On January 21 2017 04:25 thezanursic wrote: I'm not concerned that we aren't going to see new maps, I'm concerned that 1. Future maps will be reskins of popular maps like Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit 2. Even if we get really good, potentially even crazy new maps, the players aren't going to actually make new strategies for these maps, they are just going to slightly alter their old builds to suit their new maps, this is the major shame of not having the KESPA team structure anymore, we are unlikely to see many well practiced and refined map specific strategies. That's a reasonable assumption. But I think we can just operate more optimistically for now. Let's give the scene two years and look back on this. If new maps and strategies haven't evolved then we will need work on this as an area for improvement. For now, safe maps and strategies are good while the top players ween themselves back into the scene. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 21 2017 04:32 BisuDagger wrote: That's a reasonable assumption. But I think we can just operate more optimistically for now. Let's give the scene two years and look back on this. If new maps and strategies haven't evolved then we will need work on this as an area for improvement. For now, safe maps and strategies are good while the top players ween themselves back into the scene. I do however think that the crazier the map, the more the players would be forced to figure out something new. If you remember that Mist map with the no vision bridge from SSL13, I think, I truly thought that was going to become a thing, have open maps with no vision terrain in the middle, play around with the idea left and right. I'd also love to see map makers try that thing one of the foreign mapmakers found out where you could make even ground with 48% miss chance. It only ended up having a handful of games played on it, but while I could definitely see a lot of problems with Zerg being strong on such a map, in TvZ, but I think such a feature was worth expermenting with. For instance from the few foreigner games I saw on it, Terrans were mixing in firebats in TvZ, Protoss were going Zealot heavy, etc. Surprisingly I think there are still a few features that could be toyed around with to make interesting truly new and unique maps, and I also think you could use these features to make a balanced map, but I somehow doubt we will ever see professional players play and prepare for such a map ever again | ||
juvenal
2448 Posts
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BossPurple
Sweden65 Posts
"You don't know them, you must watch pre-2009 matches in order to be a fan!" Ugh.. mouth diarrhoea. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 21 2017 04:43 juvenal wrote: I'd love to see a couple of island maps - old or new - added into mix. They're at least suitable for mirror match ups and promote super whacky gameplay in non mirrors which can be good as well sometimes. Has there ever been a balanced Pure Island map? If I remember correctly Zergs were really weak on Island maps, I'd much rather see more experimentation on Troy-esque maps, play around with that feature. What happens if you make Troy, but you can kill of your assimilator and have an in-base natural like on Electric Circuit, I mean Troy wasn't a perfectly balanced map, but it was definitely a map any race could win on. TvZ: 58-42 (58%) ZvP: 40-50 (44.4%) PvT: 54-39 (58.1%) Either way I guess I'd be pretty satisfied if we stop seeing Circuit Breakers and Fighting Spirit in every map pool, that would be a good starting point. | ||
-NegativeZero-
United States2136 Posts
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ilsamsamchil
155 Posts
im 99% sure thorin has a dedicated script writer for non fps games and he just reads them because half of the time he sounds like he knows what's up, and the other half he's just spinning shit (see bw and dota vids) | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On January 22 2017 04:41 ReachTheSky wrote: I miss the old maps like neo forbidden zone, charity, and neo valhalla. There were a lot of other awesome maps from back in the day like Gaema Gowon, Luna and bladestorm. Icarus was another fun map too. I think it would be good to bring back some of these old maps as some of them provide different avenues of gameplay styles. Something to chew on. Lol, do NOT bring back Luna. Unless you mean fixing the positional imbalances, but then that might just make it very-unLuna like. The top left main has noticeably slow mining compared to the others, as well as the gas issue in other mains. And PvZ plays much differently on these older maps more than any other match up, I think. You can't really block your main choke and guard your natural expansion at the same time with a FFE. | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On January 22 2017 05:01 JungleTerrain wrote: Lol, do NOT bring back Luna. Unless you mean fixing the positional imbalances, but then that might just make it very-unLuna like. The top left main has noticeably slow mining compared to the others, as well as the gas issue in other mains. And PvZ plays much differently on these older maps more than any other match up, I think. You can't really block your main choke and guard your natural expansion at the same time with a FFE. Those things could definitely be fixed with new edited versions. I'd totally do it but i have zero experience with map editor ;/. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6325 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Luna mining problems are fixed already in the new iccup mappack ;; Really? I mean I never play Luna anymore, so I wouldn't know | ||
JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:30 Antisocialmunky wrote: I would love to see less imbalanced versions of older maps actually. And this could be done... however you have to think about "imbalance" as an idea is a subjective thing. It changes based on what we know is possible in-game and the meta as a result. Back in the early and mid 2000s people for the most part didn't know about stacking air units (for muta harass), or hold lurkers, or vulture patrol micro, or etc, things we take for granted now but affect balance a ton. And then you have to take into account the meta... Have you seen the big difference in maps before the Bisu revolution in PvZ? Natural expansion layouts on promaps changed a lot from early 2006 to 2007ish. This is because "balance" itself shifted along with the meta. People realized (progamers first, then everyone else) what was possible, but only to an extent based on what strategies maps allowed for. Older maps like R-Point, Arcadia, Luna, Sin Peaks of Baekdu, etc, don't even have natural expansions that block the ramp into the main base. You basically had to play aggressive or 1base, or you could go a slow expansion but it was much riskier than what maps allow for nowadays. You could never FFE 1cannon into nex or 14cc on those maps. I'd argue that what we now see as "imbalances" in some of those older maps is what actually makes them unique, what makes them "old school BW maps". I haven't played on any old maps recently, but I used to, and it was fun because I felt like I had to throw out some of my current knowledge at the time and go back to using some outdated builds simply because they are proven to work on those older maps. So if some of those maps were to be brought up to modern standards... that would be interesting. They would feel different from their original way of playing. It might be better to simply make new maps INSPIRED from some older maps. | ||
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