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Hi guys,
was watching some BW recently when I got an idea for a map I want to share with you. Its a 1v1 map with some similarities to Blue Storm. I made a concept picture to show what I mean:
http://imgur.com/DVymeJM
White is low ground Tan is high ground (first level) Orange is higher ground (second level [unbuildable?])
The main / nat setup is similar to heart break ridge with both the main and the natural on low-ground with a rock wall as a choke. The natural also has a rock wall as a choke only. In front of the natural is a 4-way cross roads. A very narrow entrance goes directly to the center and allows for very early game aggression (too small for tanks, dragoons, ultras, etc). The two other ways lead to potential 3rd bases. One is closer but a mineral only, the other is further away and on the high ground but vulnerable to units on the higher ground. There is a forth gas base in the far corners which can be taken in the late game or as a ninja expand.
The main attack paths are on the high or higher ground and lead to the different 3rd base spots. Keeping control of these high ground pods in front of your own 3rd is crucial to your survival. You dont want to find your enemy in an entrenched position outside your 3rd.
What I think is good about this map: * The expansion pattern is not clear. You have different options depending on your needs and overall strategy. * The direct rush path makes early rushes viable and forces players to be a bit more careful. * mid- / late-game pushes have different routes depending on your own and your enemies expansion pattern. If you both expand to the same 3rd base you need to cross the crevasse in the center. * the fork in front of the natural allows for multi pronged attacks on the enemy * there will be lots of fighting over the higher ground areas in the late game as the 4th bases become more important later
So? What are your thoughts? Does somebody like this idea? Unfortunately I am not an experienced map maker in BW, perhaps somebody else can feel inspired by this concept? If you would like to give this map a go just do it; I would love to see it happen and I am ready to help if I can.
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as long as you can walk over the high ground, it shouldn't play out like hitchhiker :D
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You can come on over to broodwarmaps.net if you make the map and can give you feedback. Or could just do it here, I don't mind.
A useful program that I use to make drawing concepts into maps is SCPM5, it turns image files into map files (uncompressed) .chk
Then use SCMDraft2 (best editor out there) to fill in everything. It's not necessary to do it this way, but it can help. Although you would have to get your sizes/proportions down first (like the mains being small).
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School just started for me but maybe I can give this map a go at it. although I am concerned about Zerg third gas
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Yeah, there is a certain overlap. Perhaps like a Bloody Ridge / Blue Storm mix.
On January 20 2017 16:19 JungleTerrain wrote: [...] I am concerned about Zerg third gas I am a little bit too. But I think if the corner bases would have a small ramp as their only entrance then zerg may take these as their 3rd and defend with lurkers + static D. The other gas 3rd could also be defended in the early and mid game I think. Just the late game would require zerg to be more active and defend the higher ground.
I mean, it shouldnt be much worse than benzene and match point with the far away 3rd, right?
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On January 20 2017 09:16 RoomOfMush wrote:Tan is high ground (first level) That would be medium ground (useful note: making a map with three fully usable [i.e. walkable and accessible by ramps] terrain levels pretty much boils down to using either space or twilight terrain, due to the lack of viable blends for the other tilesets [unless you consider a completely shotty look a viable option...]. Space platform adds the added utility of allowing expansions to be placed on all three levels, albeit at the cost of limited ramp angles [again, unless completely shitty looks are accepted], but that is not required here, as there are no high ground expansions).
In front of the natural is a 4-way cross roads. A very narrow entrance goes directly to the center and allows for very early game aggression (too small for tanks, dragoons, ultras, etc). The two other ways lead to potential 3rd bases. One is closer but a mineral only, the other is further away and on the high ground but vulnerable to units on the higher ground. This would be a variation on the tight path/long path layout most prevalent in two player maps.
* The expansion pattern is not clear. You have different options depending on your needs and overall strategy. It still is rather starved on resources overall and has a rather clear top vs bottom map split (not as bad as Blue Storm or Match Point, however). The corner expansions definitely need a small ramp leading to the. A double gas (like Polaris Rhapsody or Odd Eye) could also be an option. Otherwise ZvT 3rd gas is very hard, making an already highly volatile midgame in that matchup even worse.
So? What are your thoughts? Does somebody like this idea? Unfortunately I am not an experienced map maker in BW, perhaps somebody else can feel inspired by this concept? If you would like to give this map a go just do it; I would love to see it happen and I am ready to help if I can. Maybe when I have worked my way through my own two dozen or so unfinished map concepts, so maybe in five to ten years (i.e. foreseeably never) ;D
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On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:That would be medium ground (useful note: making a map with three fully usable [i.e. walkable and accessible by ramps] terrain levels pretty much boils down to using either space or twilight terrain, due to the lack of viable blends for the other tilesets [unless you consider a completely shotty look a viable option...]. Space platform adds the added utility of allowing expansions to be placed on all three levels, albeit at the cost of limited ramp angles [again, unless completely shitty looks are accepted], but that is not required here, as there are no high ground expansions). Yeah, I was thinking about Twilight terrain too. A question though: Would it not work with the desert tileset? Isnt there a third level too? Or are the ramps for that not good for some reason?
On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +In front of the natural is a 4-way cross roads. A very narrow entrance goes directly to the center and allows for very early game aggression (too small for tanks, dragoons, ultras, etc). The two other ways lead to potential 3rd bases. One is closer but a mineral only, the other is further away and on the high ground but vulnerable to units on the higher ground. This would be a variation on the tight path/long path layout most prevalent in two player maps. Like heart break ridge as pointed out, yeah. I think its a nice feature. But in this map each path is somewhat different and depending on the expansion patterns of your opponent and yourself the paths get different importance over the course of the game. I like the way that feels in my imagination.
On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +* The expansion pattern is not clear. You have different options depending on your needs and overall strategy. It still is rather starved on resources overall and has a rather clear top vs bottom map split (not as bad as Blue Storm or Match Point, however). The corner expansions definitely need a small ramp leading to the. A double gas (like Polaris Rhapsody or Odd Eye) could also be an option. Otherwise ZvT 3rd gas is very hard, making an already highly volatile midgame in that matchup even worse. The single small ramp for the corner bases is something I thought of too. It makes a lot of sense. Double gas is also an option. But the map may also be stretched vertically to allow for an additional base on the sides.
Another point I want to mention: I wanted the players to be able to take either corner base as their own creating either a top-vs-bottom or top-right-vs-bottom-left split. Either choice makes sense depending on the situation and the match up I believe.
Thanks for the feedback.
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On January 21 2017 00:11 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:On January 20 2017 09:16 RoomOfMush wrote:Tan is high ground (first level) That would be medium ground (useful note: making a map with three fully usable [i.e. walkable and accessible by ramps] terrain levels pretty much boils down to using either space or twilight terrain, due to the lack of viable blends for the other tilesets [unless you consider a completely shotty look a viable option...]. Space platform adds the added utility of allowing expansions to be placed on all three levels, albeit at the cost of limited ramp angles [again, unless completely shitty looks are accepted], but that is not required here, as there are no high ground expansions). Yeah, I was thinking about Twilight terrain too. A question though: Would it not work with the desert tileset? Isnt there a third level too? Or are the ramps for that not good for some reason? They are bugged (terrain level bug), which cannot really be fixed and also cannot be inverted (al assuming anything that looks reasonably alright and not just some random blocks of terrain that look as blocky as they are...)
Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:In front of the natural is a 4-way cross roads. A very narrow entrance goes directly to the center and allows for very early game aggression (too small for tanks, dragoons, ultras, etc). The two other ways lead to potential 3rd bases. One is closer but a mineral only, the other is further away and on the high ground but vulnerable to units on the higher ground. This would be a variation on the tight path/long path layout most prevalent in two player maps. Like heart break ridge as pointed out, yeah. I think its a nice feature. But in this map each path is somewhat different and depending on the expansion patterns of your opponent and yourself the paths get different importance over the course of the game. I like the way that feels in my imagination. You are right. I was just pointing out that this is actually how the majority of two player maps works, because it is a tried and tested concept that just works.
Show nested quote +On January 20 2017 23:24 Freakling wrote:* The expansion pattern is not clear. You have different options depending on your needs and overall strategy. It still is rather starved on resources overall and has a rather clear top vs bottom map split (not as bad as Blue Storm or Match Point, however). The corner expansions definitely need a small ramp leading to the. A double gas (like Polaris Rhapsody or Odd Eye) could also be an option. Otherwise ZvT 3rd gas is very hard, making an already highly volatile midgame in that matchup even worse. The single small ramp for the corner bases is something I thought of too. It makes a lot of sense. Double gas is also an option. But the map may also be stretched vertically to allow for an additional base on the sides. Yes. Keep in mind though that the main also needs some major stretching (a quarter of the map border in each dimension is reasonable, especially considering it is a two player map [no taking another main for more building space] and the man is low ground [meaning it needs some buffer perimeter against tanks]). 128x112 or even 128x120 as map dimensions are options though. Modern two player maps generally use 112x128. 128x128 (the size of 3/4 player maps) is usually too big though (unless you have a concept with lots of very intricate details that actually need that amount of space)
Another point I want to mention: I wanted the players to be able to take either corner base as their own creating either a top-vs-bottom or top-right-vs-bottom-left split. Either choice makes sense depending on the situation and the match up I believe. I would argue that top vs. bottom would be preferred in most cases based on how players can best leverage the high ground advantage (left vs. right leaves the mineral only very exposed). A small ramp from the high ground to the medium ground gas expansion may be a good idea, although it makes that third harder to defend, of course. But then those thirds are actually much too bulky in your sketch, so a lot of space would already be freed up by just shrinking them to a reasonable size.
However, you'd also need to add a lot of buffer zones to prevent unwanted tank angles (something often forgotten)...
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I'll add my rendition of this concept in a bit, but I used space tileset 128x112 (or 112x128? Anyways, same size as Benzene).
Also I added another expansion per player. Had to distort some things since in actuality in the picture the mains are too small.
@RoomofMush Which choke points have what properties? The ones outside the naturals only allow small and mid sized units but not large ones? What about the middle choke?
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On January 21 2017 02:24 JungleTerrain wrote: I'll add my rendition of this concept in a bit, but I used space tileset 128x112 (or 112x128? Anyways, same size as Benzene).
Also I added another expansion per player. Had to distort some things since in actuality in the picture the mains are too small.
@RoomofMush Which choke points have what properties? The ones outside the naturals only allow small and mid sized units but not large ones? What about the middle choke?
Here is an updated pic, maybe it helps:
The corner bases now have double gas as Freakling and others suggested. I think that is a really good idea because it gives that base much more interesting interactions. Taking it as a third will give you a huge benefit if you actually manage to pull it off. One of the gases should be snipeable from the higher ground while the other is not.
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This is off-topic from this thread, but I was thinking about what Mapmakers in Brood War could do to introduce more innovative features into their maps, so I had an idea.
What if the no-vision bridge idea from mist was expanded and make a more prominent feature for a map, say have a map with a very open middle except have it with no vision. It could introduce a very interesting dynamic where it would only be safe to go through the middle if you had an air unit.
On a side note, I remember a foreign map where the middle of the map was all even ground, but had the 48% misschance apply, why haven't some of these "features" been expanded on further in map making?
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@thezanursic: The map with vision blockers you describe (or some variation of the concept) has already been made, multiple times over, in fact, and a long time ago!
I agree that this is a feature that needs to be used more often (which is why I use them all the time!). However, not going overboard with it probably makes for better maps overall. SC2 map makers show how you can do lots of nice things with vision blockers (or LOS blockers, as they like to call them). In case you do not know, the iCCup map (2)Cross Game uses the effect on a small scale. Similarly (4)Kiseyras, which is currently being used in TL.net fight club, uses some vision blockers.
The other map you mention, that uses the cover effect (miss chance) very prominently, is probably (4)Desertec, which is also a current iCCup map. it is also a pretty good example how going overboard with a certain mechanic can overall hurt game play, I would say.
However, I agree that both of these effect need to be used more, especially considering that both of these are actually great for helping ZvT in the mid game (mutas and melee units against ranged units profit from limited marine vision and cover is erffectively half a dark swarm...). The reason that is not used (and never was in any Kespa maps) is probably a combination of those map makers probably not even knowing about how to implement those effects correctly (and maps like Avalon or the egregious (4)Overwatch map from last ASL actually show that neither str18-02 nor Ragnarok[Valkyrie] actually have a clue, as both of these have or had the effect as a bug).
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On January 21 2017 05:24 Freakling wrote:@thezanursic: The map with vision blockers you describe (or some variation of the concept) has already been made, multiple times over, in fact, and a long time ago! I agree that this is a feature that needs to be used more often (which is why I use them all the time!). However, not going overboard with it probably makes for better maps overall. SC2 map makers show how you can do lots of nice things with vision blockers (or LOS blockers, as they like to call them). In case you do not know, the iCCup map (2)Cross Game uses the effect on a small scale. Similarly (4)Kiseyras, which is currently being used in TL.net fight club, uses some vision blockers. The other map you mention, that uses the cover effect (miss chance) very prominently, is probably (4)Desertec, which is also a current iCCup map. it is also a pretty good example how going overboard with a certain mechanic can overall hurt game play, I would say. However, I agree that both of these effect need to be used more, especially considering that both of these are actually great for helping ZvT in the mid game (mutas and melee units against ranged units profit from limited marine vision and cover is erffectively half a dark swarm...). The reason that is not used (and never was in any Kespa maps) is probably a combination of those map makers probably not even knowing about how to implement those effects correctly (and maps like Avalon or the egregious (4)Overwatch map from last ASL actually show that neither str18-02 nor Ragnarok[Valkyrie] actually have a clue, as both of these have or had the effect as a bug).
Desertec that's it yeah, I remember that map.
Yeah, I know these things have been used in foreigner maps before, I think making maps for the foreigner scene is all fine and dandy, but in my personal opinion unless it gets played by top Korean players, you don't really see what that map is capable off.
I would love to have these maps sent to the ASL, however improbable, and just say, "Hey, here are some interesting maps, test them out"
Could you maybe expand on how exactly you can use the miss chance even ground and vision blockers, are there any limitations? How far can you go with these features?
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Both effects can only be used on certain tile sets (not all of them have doodad tiles with the right properties). Vision blockers are limited to ice, ash and jungle terrain with the latter only having them for low ground. The ash ones also have a tendency to make unit pathing a bit wonky, so it is best to use them only in strips and not to cover whole areas. Cover effect is only available for jungle, desert and ice terrain maps (there are also cover providing tree doodads for badlands, but those are not fully walkable, so the abomination which is (3)Demon's Forest is the most you can get).
A principal limitation is of course that all these tiles are unbuildable (so no putting them into bases...)
Apart from that the limitations only lie in imagination; and balance consideration of course (huge amounts of cover tiles, as on DeserTec, may be great for ZvT and hence a nice balancing tool, but they also majorly screw up conventional PvZ and PvT meta [Zealots, templar and reavers become much stronger, but dragoons a lot weaker, lurkers/lings trump hydras or mutas, delayed defiler tec becomes more viable...]).
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Off topic.
No offense, but to me this looks like some surrealist's expressionist's dirty fantasy, haha
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Alright, let me introduce you to...
(2)MushRooM!
lol. As you can see I shifted some stuff and added an expo per player. All minerals and gas are standard 1500m, 5000g. The map is not decorated, wallins are untested, resources are untested, tile editing may be a bit wonky. The ramps should fully work unless it has a few tiles I need to fix. They have been debugged in regards to elevation levels.
The chokes also don't work, it's just an image. I felt zerg third was unsafe, so I reduced chokes into the 3 and 9 o' clock. Double gas at corners, with one being cliffable. There are a few small overlord spots around the map, specifically alongside the middle passages.
Edit: Terran third gas seems too easy, so it might be better to have 3 and 9 o' clock rotate their chokes so it opens into the open area as opposed to towards the ramp in front of the natural.
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Not sure I like curved space ramps... Have to look at t in the editor. Some proportions still seem off. First and Foremost the mains look way too small still. The all the low ground areas should be wider, I think, maybe the high ground, too; my first impulse would be to rotate the whole layout by 90° in either direction, just so I could work with normal ramp angles which is always preferable with space terrain.
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On January 21 2017 08:33 Freakling wrote: Not sure I like curved space ramps... Have to look at t in the editor. Some proportions still seem off. First and Foremost the mains look way too small still. The all the low ground areas should be wider, I think, maybe the high ground, too; my first impulse would be to rotate the whole layout by 90° in either direction, just so I could work with normal ramp angles which is always preferable with space terrain.
The ramps are actually pretty ugly lol. But they look much nicer in the picture.
Edit: I will post this on BWMN so you can take a look if you want.
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Can units actually fit through that middle channel there? Especially in the center it looks too tight, right?
Its not quite the same but congrats and thanks for the effort. Always nice to contribute to the BW community.
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