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http://afreecatv.com/reach12
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
20:00 KST AfreecaTV http://afreecatv.com/reach12 | ||
GTR
51126 Posts
On January 17 2005 20:48 Manifesto7 wrote: Game 3: Reach (p) 59-48 vs SaferZerg (z) 16-11 on Neo Guillotine I have heard rumblings about my reporting being somewhat biased towards Reach, and that I should try to be more impartial. I apologize for this, and will try to curb my enthusiasm for him from now on. The greatest StarCraft player on the earth today (23-28 vs Z) warped in at five, while SaferZerg (4-3 vs P) spawned across the map at eleven. Safer went for a safe twelve pool build while scouting the map, while Odin himself used his brilliant intellect and cunning to start with a forge-first build which quickly led to a fast nexus. It looked as if the game would boil down to a race between Reach’s sairs and Safer’s mutalisks, but in reality there was no competition. Saferzerg was forced to switch to lurkers while the Gifted One’s air power dominated the skies. While Safer looked to contain with his new lurkers, Reach simply shrugged off his opponents mild attempts at resistance as his dt artfully ninja sliced the drones at Safer’s expansion. Bordering on contempt for this pathetic display of zerg offense, Reach broke out of his main with a zeal/goon/temp army, decimating his opponent’s lurkers and expanding two more times. With only one expansion, Safer was unable to keep up with the protoss macro game, and with every breath Reach gave life to new legions of armies willing to do his bidding. As Safer huddled in the corner of the map, mounting no offense and trying to avoid detection, Reach launched his Spartans relentlessly, raining blue fire down upon the confused and frightened zerg. With the blood running in torrents, Safer quickly taped out in the face of the onslaught, took one look at the face of God, and ran from the MegaWeb studio to find solace in the company of lesser mortals. Reach simply got up, made all the girls swoon with a single smile, and then got into his cloud car and headed back to the heavens for fine wine and peeled grapes. Reach > SaferZerg Unfortunately, this does not change things for my Mudang hero. However, he will ultimately extract revenge upon all those who attempt to sully his name. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9357 Posts
Can you post a link to his channel? | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9357 Posts
On June 23 2017 18:34 GTR wrote: perfect time to repost this + Show Spoiler + On January 17 2005 20:48 Manifesto7 wrote: Game 3: Reach (p) 59-48 vs SaferZerg (z) 16-11 on Neo Guillotine I have heard rumblings about my reporting being somewhat biased towards Reach, and that I should try to be more impartial. I apologize for this, and will try to curb my enthusiasm for him from now on. The greatest StarCraft player on the earth today (23-28 vs Z) warped in at five, while SaferZerg (4-3 vs P) spawned across the map at eleven. Safer went for a safe twelve pool build while scouting the map, while Odin himself used his brilliant intellect and cunning to start with a forge-first build which quickly led to a fast nexus. It looked as if the game would boil down to a race between Reach’s sairs and Safer’s mutalisks, but in reality there was no competition. Saferzerg was forced to switch to lurkers while the Gifted One’s air power dominated the skies. While Safer looked to contain with his new lurkers, Reach simply shrugged off his opponents mild attempts at resistance as his dt artfully ninja sliced the drones at Safer’s expansion. Bordering on contempt for this pathetic display of zerg offense, Reach broke out of his main with a zeal/goon/temp army, decimating his opponent’s lurkers and expanding two more times. With only one expansion, Safer was unable to keep up with the protoss macro game, and with every breath Reach gave life to new legions of armies willing to do his bidding. As Safer huddled in the corner of the map, mounting no offense and trying to avoid detection, Reach launched his Spartans relentlessly, raining blue fire down upon the confused and frightened zerg. With the blood running in torrents, Safer quickly taped out in the face of the onslaught, took one look at the face of God, and ran from the MegaWeb studio to find solace in the company of lesser mortals. Reach simply got up, made all the girls swoon with a single smile, and then got into his cloud car and headed back to the heavens for fine wine and peeled grapes. Reach > SaferZerg Unfortunately, this does not change things for my Mudang hero. However, he will ultimately extract revenge upon all those who attempt to sully his name. I also like this one: On August 07 2006 15:44 Rekrul wrote: Koreans usually don't look strangers in the eyes. Atleast thats true for gamers, most don't have very good social skills. At MBC Trials I raped some terran round one. I was feeling pumped and ready for round 2 vs. Reach. I was then walking towards him and he was walking towards me and we made eye contact, he didn't look away, neither did I. I felt the power of the mantoss. There was nothing I could do. He was Reach. I was the first one to break the eye contact. I knew what was coming. Mother fucker raped me twice with ease. | ||
RedW4rr10r
Germany741 Posts
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onlystar
United States971 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3954 Posts
Mani is a legend. Not only he is smart, lives in Japan, he also is canadian and knows hockey. Reach is a legend. Manhandled terrans with his zealot drops like nothing happens. Boy do i miss old times. | ||
Akara12345
164 Posts
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gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On June 23 2017 21:32 Akara12345 wrote: That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is he still this is like asking whether arnold is still a championship powerlifter | ||
K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 23 2017 21:32 Akara12345 wrote: That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is he still He is ladder B rank now. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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GTR
51126 Posts
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GTR
51126 Posts
On June 23 2017 18:35 2Pacalypse- wrote: OMG Yes! Can you post a link to his channel? Had to do some Googling. http://afreecatv.com/reach12 | ||
IntoTheStorm
116 Posts
For nostalgia's sake, the only thing that's missing, is Kingdom. Ah, and GGplay as well. Both were so awesome to watch back in the day. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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Jealous
9967 Posts
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Rhaeide
Spain304 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/173966-rekrul-meets-the-mantoss | ||
GTR
51126 Posts
On June 23 2017 23:25 IntoTheStorm wrote: Sweet, amazing, awesome. I lack the words for this. For nostalgia's sake, the only thing that's missing, is Kingdom. Ah, and GGplay as well. Both were so awesome to watch back in the day. Kingdom streams on Afreeca - http://www.afreecatv.com/kkingw Don't think we'll ever see GGPlay ever again - when he retired, his main reason was because of wrist-related issues which are ongoing. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
my hero returns | ||
Poly_Optimize
Canada155 Posts
Old school korean gosu has opportunity to stream and make more money than they used to. | ||
Jealous
9967 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:01 Poly_Optimize wrote: Cool to see him back! Starcraft remastered is very hype and i'm sure he is not the last to come back to the best game. Old school korean gosu has opportunity to stream and make more money than they used to. Not sure if you mean they will make more money than they used to as progamers or that they will have more of an opportunity to make money from streaming than they used to. I think the former is decidedly untrue for players of Reach's caliber playing in the golden era of BW hype, while the latter is quite possible. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
www.youtube.com | ||
MKStyles
106 Posts
sry i dont really know them | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:37 MKStyles wrote: Who are these? sry i dont really know them BW legends from the old days. | ||
NerO
United States2071 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:56 NerO wrote: This is exciting. What are the chances he gets serious with it? Imagine Reach qualifying for ASL lol | ||
NerO
United States2071 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:59 BigFan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 03:56 NerO wrote: This is exciting. What are the chances he gets serious with it? Imagine Reach qualifying for ASL lol That doesn't take much imagination. I'd think it likely if he's serious about comeback. | ||
Chris_Havoc
United States582 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:37 MKStyles wrote: Who are these? sry i dont really know them Reach was one of the early superstars of Brood War. Very good and very popular. He was also the face of the KTF MagicNs team for many years until Flash came along. Reach would later become the head coach of KTF MagicNs/KT Rolster and was a mentor to Flash and many other KT players. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On June 24 2017 04:01 NerO wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 03:59 BigFan wrote: On June 24 2017 03:56 NerO wrote: This is exciting. What are the chances he gets serious with it? Imagine Reach qualifying for ASL lol That doesn't take much imagination. I'd think it likely if he's serious about comeback. I dunno. He'd have to be really serious. Reach was good, but he wasn't a top player in the most competitive era of BW, and it's only gotten better since then. Obviously there is talent there, but going from B on Fish to competing with the best players in ASL is a MAJOR step up. It would be cool to see a former "old school" champion start putting in the big 8-12 hour days and make a run at returning to prominence, but I'd guess most of them are at points where they aren't young and single-mindedly hungry for BW glory having families, relationships, and other life aspirations in the mix. Being good at BW is incredibly time demanding. You can do it, but you need a pretty single-minded focus to do so. | ||
jaeboss
68 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/474535-my-trip-to-korea-with-the-e-sports | ||
Caos2
United States1728 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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Piratezerg
54 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:37 MKStyles wrote: Who are these? sry i dont really know them Reach was known for being tall and muscular. For example, he could lift an entire bison over his head. And then devour it. He had to change keyboards between games as his fingers continually punched through them. Also Reach's MANlots were at least twice as powerful as regular zealots, which was a hack but he had a grandfathered in exemption to the rule as he'd been using it before it was banned in competitive play. He defeated Boxer and became champion by taking him at his word and punching him several times to the head between games. | ||
Highgamer
1340 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On June 24 2017 07:08 Highgamer wrote: One of the few players who, not only by his play, but also by his natural aura seems larger than life... Something about the champions of old that not even the net-best players of all time can reach (no pun intended). Hmm...Flash and JD have that sort of aura around them as well in my opinion. Flash with his total invincibility and JD with his stare and unbreakable will to win. | ||
JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
A man-pseudo God who used his extremely high testosterone levels to repeatedly finger fuck his keyboard during televised BW matches and in the process inject his testosterone into the game code through his violent keyboard inputs. The result was an altering of the game files in which his units received invulnerability and the ability to sexually assault other units. The effect on zealots resulted in his famous Manlots. Outside of the game, the crowd would become enraptured in an orgasmic furor as they witnessed Reach's opponent typing "gg". It is rumored that he is always rock-hard. Some have speculated that he is testosterone given a human form. | ||
Highgamer
1340 Posts
On June 24 2017 07:18 L_Master wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 07:08 Highgamer wrote: One of the few players who, not only by his play, but also by his natural aura seems larger than life... Something about the champions of old that not even the net-best players of all time can reach (no pun intended). Hmm...Flash and JD have that sort of aura around them as well in my opinion. Flash with his total invincibility and JD with his stare and unbreakable will to win. With all due respect for Flash and JD... it's their play that puts everyone in awe, creates their aura. It's like they're Messi and, let's say, Reach is Zidane... never will Messi have that aura even off field. I guess it's personal... aura is not exactly a clear concept. I mean a constant thing, not the scary focus and ruthlessness Flash and JD show in the booth. | ||
KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
Is there any good Reach VOD that shows them that is still accessible? | ||
Glueburn
United States496 Posts
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GTR
51126 Posts
On June 24 2017 03:15 PVJ wrote: By the way what's up with Anytime? Got married and operates a bread franchise. | ||
K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 24 2017 09:15 GTR wrote: Got married and operates a bread franchise. lol Bread franchise is rumor. He worked at Air conditioner company. And here is another player's news. 1. Xellos After retirement, he worked CJ marketing team for a while. Now he made a company. 2. Midas He is studying at china university now. 3. Oversky Dentist lol 4. Darkelf Running chicken franchise 5. Much Civil officer( education part.) | ||
Disregard
China10252 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39470 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
Descent
1244 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Here he takes on one of the best ZvP players of all time with zealots: & here he crushes that little shit matchfixer: A true man's pride should be zealots. | ||
NET
United States703 Posts
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Chris_Havoc
United States582 Posts
Do you know if Reach was offered an Afreeca streaming partntership similar to Flash's deal? | ||
K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
On June 24 2017 13:14 Chris_Havoc wrote: Question for K.H.J Do you know if Reach was offered an Afreeca streaming partntership similar to Flash's deal? No, partnerships which you mentioned are only 2 players. JD, Flash | ||
Chris_Havoc
United States582 Posts
On June 24 2017 13:26 K.H.J wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 13:14 Chris_Havoc wrote: Question for K.H.J Do you know if Reach was offered an Afreeca streaming partntership similar to Flash's deal? No, partnerships which you mentioned are only 2 players. JD, Flash Thanks. I was curious since Reach was always very popular with fans and if that was enough for Afreeca to make him a partner. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On June 24 2017 13:37 Chris_Havoc wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 13:26 K.H.J wrote: On June 24 2017 13:14 Chris_Havoc wrote: Question for K.H.J Do you know if Reach was offered an Afreeca streaming partntership similar to Flash's deal? No, partnerships which you mentioned are only 2 players. JD, Flash Thanks. I was curious since Reach was always very popular with fans and if that was enough for Afreeca to make him a partner. My guess is that they'll have to see how he does first even if it is Reach we're talking about. | ||
IntoTheStorm
116 Posts
On June 24 2017 09:36 K.H.J wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 24 2017 09:15 GTR wrote: Got married and operates a bread franchise. lol Bread franchise is rumor. He worked at Air conditioner company. And here is another player's news. 1. Xellos After retirement, he worked CJ marketing team for a while. Now he made a company. 2. Midas He is studying at china university now. 3. Oversky Dentist lol 4. Darkelf Running chicken franchise 5. Much Civil officer( education part.) Man, what have you done? You typed a couple of names and brought back floods of fond memories. Anytime, Xellos, Midas, Much Thank you! | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On June 24 2017 07:55 Highgamer wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 07:18 L_Master wrote: On June 24 2017 07:08 Highgamer wrote: One of the few players who, not only by his play, but also by his natural aura seems larger than life... Something about the champions of old that not even the net-best players of all time can reach (no pun intended). Hmm...Flash and JD have that sort of aura around them as well in my opinion. Flash with his total invincibility and JD with his stare and unbreakable will to win. With all due respect for Flash and JD... it's their play that puts everyone in awe, creates their aura. It's like they're Messi and, let's say, Reach is Zidane... never will Messi have that aura even off field. I guess it's personal... aura is not exactly a clear concept. I mean a constant thing, not the scary focus and ruthlessness Flash and JD show in the booth. I understand what you mean. Tiger had it with golf. Lance had it with cycling. Flash definitely just has it from his play. JD is closer, but even his ferocity and focus is a little more centered around the booth than overall. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
On June 23 2017 21:39 gngfn wrote: Show nested quote + On June 23 2017 21:32 Akara12345 wrote: That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is he still this is like asking whether arnold is still a championship powerlifter he is/was a bodybuilder though | ||
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
On June 24 2017 20:48 Pulimuli wrote: Show nested quote + On June 23 2017 21:39 gngfn wrote: On June 23 2017 21:32 Akara12345 wrote: That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Is he still this is like asking whether arnold is still a championship powerlifter he is/was a bodybuilder though That's my point. He won a couple powerlifting competitions very early in his career, but that part of his life is not why he's a legend. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3133 Posts
He was always sucha great player. Amazing aura as you guys said... And his playstyle was such a treat | ||
GTR
51126 Posts
On June 24 2017 20:22 c3rberUs wrote: Guys who would fit the bill are probably guys like BoxeR, iloveoov, YellOw, XellOs and Garimto and maybe ZeuS. GARIMTO? lol, he streamed for a week when 1.18 came out then stopped suddenly. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
On June 24 2017 11:56 Last Romantic wrote: Manlots? Here he takes on one of the best ZvP players of all time with zealots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp6nrzq1hrw & here he crushes that little shit matchfixer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hv3ArBixCn8 A true man's pride should be zealots. That was the manliest hing I've ever seen in my life. My voice probably got deeper just by watching those games. | ||
Highgamer
1340 Posts
On June 24 2017 20:22 c3rberUs wrote: Guys who would fit the bill are probably guys like BoxeR, iloveoov, YellOw, XellOs and Garimto and maybe ZeuS. Dunno much about XellOs play tbh, but I think you're right, he just looks like the devil... like someone who stands all by himself, above things around him, who looks deep down into your soul - or right through you no matter who you are... | ||
esdf
Croatia736 Posts
On June 24 2017 04:44 L_Master wrote: Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 04:01 NerO wrote: On June 24 2017 03:59 BigFan wrote: On June 24 2017 03:56 NerO wrote: This is exciting. What are the chances he gets serious with it? Imagine Reach qualifying for ASL lol That doesn't take much imagination. I'd think it likely if he's serious about comeback. I dunno. He'd have to be really serious. Reach was good, but he wasn't a top player in the most competitive era of BW, and it's only gotten better since then. Obviously there is talent there, but going from B on Fish to competing with the best players in ASL is a MAJOR step up. It would be cool to see a former "old school" champion start putting in the big 8-12 hour days and make a run at returning to prominence, but I'd guess most of them are at points where they aren't young and single-mindedly hungry for BW glory having families, relationships, and other life aspirations in the mix. Being good at BW is incredibly time demanding. You can do it, but you need a pretty single-minded focus to do so. man this is just blasphemy. reach was top player till 06. reach is the original macro player, not oov! | ||
Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2111 Posts
Rekrul: Koreans usually don't look strangers in the eyes. Atleast thats true for gamers, most don't have very good social skills. At MBC Trials I raped some terran round one. I was feeling pumped and ready for round 2 vs. Reach. I was then walking towards him and he was walking towards me and we made eye contact, he didn't look away, neither did I. I felt the power of the mantoss. There was nothing I could do. He was Reach. I was the first one to break the eye contact. I knew what was coming. Mother fucker raped me twice with ease. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On June 25 2017 09:17 esdf wrote: oh dear god what is this i dont even my body is ready. my forum signature finally makes sense! Show nested quote + On June 24 2017 04:44 L_Master wrote: On June 24 2017 04:01 NerO wrote: On June 24 2017 03:59 BigFan wrote: On June 24 2017 03:56 NerO wrote: This is exciting. What are the chances he gets serious with it? Imagine Reach qualifying for ASL lol That doesn't take much imagination. I'd think it likely if he's serious about comeback. I dunno. He'd have to be really serious. Reach was good, but he wasn't a top player in the most competitive era of BW, and it's only gotten better since then. Obviously there is talent there, but going from B on Fish to competing with the best players in ASL is a MAJOR step up. It would be cool to see a former "old school" champion start putting in the big 8-12 hour days and make a run at returning to prominence, but I'd guess most of them are at points where they aren't young and single-mindedly hungry for BW glory having families, relationships, and other life aspirations in the mix. Being good at BW is incredibly time demanding. You can do it, but you need a pretty single-minded focus to do so. man this is just blasphemy. reach was top player till 06. reach is the original macro player, not oov! I won't lie, he was a little before my time; so doesn't have the same mystique if I had been following BW that early. That said, just the anecdotes I have heard are more than enough to sell me on Reach. I do stand by what I said, but I'll be very happy if that turns out to be a foot in mouth comment. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9357 Posts
On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. | ||
MymSlorm
Chile187 Posts
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Me_ToKa
Bulgaria309 Posts
I think he was in some pimpest plays vod where on the map RoV he beat 12 Zealots with 10 goons without losing any goon... I didn't believed 1st time when I saw this. | ||
esdf
Croatia736 Posts
On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. I think given his importance for protoss, he's only behind bisu & nal_rA | ||
GTR
51126 Posts
he's highly regarded mainly because he was the only protoss who could consistently post results in an era where protoss players struggled finding success in individual leagues. On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me the first OSL i started following in full was the gillette osl in 2004, so that era is the closest to my heart. it was so weird not having boxer in an osl, but it showed to everyone that the scene didn't need boxer to survive. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That means players universally recognized for their superlative achievements during their moments of glory such as BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr become mere relics of a distant, irrelevant past. This entire scene progressed because of the advancements made by these players. Just because none of the past legends would have a chance in hell of defeating a more recent player like Stats, for example, doesn't automatically make whatever Stats achieved more meaningful than what his predecessors achieved in my eyes. Further more, there's more than meets the eye when we look at the body of work Reach has amassed over the years (which is nothing to scoff at in the first place). There's a reason why Reach was known as "Hero Protoss" by the masses. He was the single ray of hope for the protoss race in the individual leagues, more so than any other protoss player in history. http://newtype.pgr21.com/pb/pb.php?id=free2&no=44009 The above post is a statistical analysis of all the OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments/MSL that happened in history except for the three most recent tournaments. It rewards the placement of players by ranking them within the context of their own race. 48 points for 1st place within their race, 24 for 2nd within their race, and 12 for finishing 3rd highest within their race, and the points are divided amongst the players if they have the same placements. So for example, Nal_rA is rewarded 48 points for his 4th place finish at CEN Game MSL, because he was the only protoss player in the round of 16, and went all the way to the semi-finals as the sole representative of his race. It is the same number of points as what Kingdom gets for winning MyCube OGN StarLeague in a similar era. While it is a flawed system in many regards, it is a pretty good indicator of who was carrying the flag for his race most frequently throughout their careers. Once we factor in the points gained by the players in the last ever MSL, and two of the most recent OGN StarLeague that isn't listed in the above post, this is what the all time ranking is for the protoss players. This is merely an accumulation of points gained by players in terms of how they placed compared to the members of their own race throughout the era, so it heavily depends on how bad the other members of your own race is at the time, rather than how well you finished overall. 1. Reach: 556 points 2. Stork: 506 points 3. Nal_rA: 492 points 4. Bisu: 442 points Now, I'm not suggesting Reach is the greatest protoss player of all time, or that his achievements should be looked in a completely different light. But what I do believe is that Reach was ever present as the leading figure of his race in the good times, and the bad. Whether he was the sole protoss representative in the round of 16 in the Gillette OGN StarLeague, the sole protoss representative at the round of eight in EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague, the sole protoss represenative in the round of four in EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague, he was always the go-to guy for the protoss race for years on end. And while it's erroneous to weigh these kind of performances the same as the times JangBi pulled off his miraculous run all the way to those OGN StarLeague triumphs, it does shed light into the fact if JangBi was one of the more memorable protagonist of his race in glorious tales of protoss triumphs that were etched into our minds forever, Reach was the protagonist for his race more so than any other protoss player in history, even if his fate was doomed for failure most of the time. I personally would have no problems ranking Reach above JangBi in terms of their career accomplishments, even though JangBi is one of my favourite protoss players of all time, while Reach is no where near close. | ||
zaMNal
Mongolia384 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9357 Posts
On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9357 Posts
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mca64Launcher_
Poland629 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia18992 Posts
On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than best Terran... that analysis weighted by overall race representation is an interesting one. Re:GTR, I would say producing units in large quantities and storm use are Reach's contributions to the race, though innovation attribution is always tough. Bisu stands on the shoulders of Daezang; I don't think Nal_rA was actually the first to do a televised forge FE, etc. | ||
thedeadhaji
39470 Posts
On June 27 2017 20:27 GTR wrote: to be honest i can't really think of anything that reach did that was on-par 'revolutionary' with bisu and nal_ra (maybe ht in shuttles and zealot bombs)? he's highly regarded mainly because he was the only protoss who could consistently post results in an era where protoss players struggled finding success in individual leagues. He brought hope. | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia18992 Posts
On June 28 2017 02:59 thedeadhaji wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 20:27 GTR wrote: to be honest i can't really think of anything that reach did that was on-par 'revolutionary' with bisu and nal_ra (maybe ht in shuttles and zealot bombs)? he's highly regarded mainly because he was the only protoss who could consistently post results in an era where protoss players struggled finding success in individual leagues. He brought hope. I'd say his bicep meta game influenced BeSt greatly. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On JuNe 28 2017 02:44 Last Romantic wrote: Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than Best Terran... Really? is "Best Terran of all time" that harder to figure out? I think 99% of people will agree on that one: go.go of course! | ||
thedeadhaji
39470 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia18992 Posts
On June 28 2017 03:02 LocoBolon wrote: Show nested quote + On JuNe 28 2017 02:44 Last Romantic wrote: Best Protoss is so controversial - think it's even harder than Best Terran... Really? is "Best Terran of all time" that harder to figure out? I think 99% of people will agree on that one: go.go of course! And here I was thinking it was a tossup between ForGG and CuteAngel | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On June 28 2017 03:03 thedeadhaji wrote: You gotta admit go.go had some pretty silly cheeses "unimpressed Flash meme with no text" cya- | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. | ||
[tyu38]
Poland121 Posts
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TwiggyWan
France328 Posts
On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash? | ||
LarryByrd1080
United States1 Post
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On June 28 2017 07:23 TwiggyWan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash? Most titles, most wins, etc - NaDa Highest skill peak - FlaSh | ||
Payt
Canada582 Posts
REACH!!!!! My first favourite player. All these other throwbacks. Xellos?!?! haha. iloveoov! nal_rA!!!!! The villain Nada! I have brand new July plans. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 28 2017 07:23 TwiggyWan wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. what difference do you make between most accomplished nada and best skilled flash? Due to unfortunate circumstances, we never saw Flash's natural progression against newer waves of hungry talents. This is apparent if you look at the number of players participating in the offline qualifiers. There were often two hundred participants trying out their luck in becoming the next StarLeaguer during the earlier years of Flash's career, and by the time ABCMart MSL came around, only around half that number participated. After that, Flash's Brood War career was cut short prematurely, and we never saw the Flash's full career arc, like we did for the other bonjwas in history. With that in mind, this is their comparison of their OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments/MSL performances, which is pretty much the only fair metric for comparison due to how long NaDa's career is, and how different the scene changed over the years. NaDa's reign at the top predates the ProLeague, GomTV Classics, and other minor tournaments Flash found success in. NaDa's accomplishments in iTV Ranking Tournaments, GhemTV StarLeague, KT/KTF Premier League, Shinhan Masters and numerous other tournaments that died out are unsuitable for comparison for this reason also. NaDa's performance in OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournaments/MSL 1st place: 6 times 2nd place or above: 10 times Round of four or above: 11 times Round of eight or above: 18 times Round of sixteen or above: 28 times Flash's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 6 times 2nd place or above: 8 times Round of four or above: 11 times Round of eight or above: 16 times Round of sixteen or above: 21 times So Flash's career didn't last long enough, and the difference is 2 finals appearances, 2 more round of eight appearances, and 7 more round of sixteen appearances. Consider the entire career achievements of Light, one of the more respected terran players of the modern era. 1st place: 0 times 2nd place or above: 0 times Round of four or above: 1 time Round of eight or above: 4 times Round of sixteen or above: 6 times So you can add the career's of Flash and Light, and their career achievements in the major individual leagues still lags behind that of NaDa's. Of course, you can make the argument that Flash was more successful in the ProLeague, and that is entirely correct, but remember that NaDa's most fruitful year in terms of trophy count was in 2002, when the ProLeague didn't exist. Imagine if you take out one year of Flash's best performance in the 2009/2010 season, and judged Flash on that basis. He would be remembered as a two time champion instead of six. Further more, it's not like NaDa was mediocre in the ProLeague when he was a top player. He had by far the largest number of accumulated 1v1 victories in the ProLeague (as well as the highest win rate in 2v2) until the massive inflation in the number of ProLeague games allowed Jaedong to surpass him in early 2009 despite making his debut in 2006. To shed some light into how drastic the inflation was, any single year long ProLeague season since 2008/2009 had more ProLeague games played than all ProLeague games from 2003~2006. Moments before Jaedong usurped him as the all time leader of ProLeague victories, NaDa had accumulated 71 one versus one ProLeague victories. At this moment in time (end of 2008), due to the massive explosion of ProLeague games all the top placings were dominated by more recent players such as Stork, Jaedong, Anytime, and Sea. Flash had already made it in to the top ten despite making his ProLeague debut in 2007, ahead of past legends such as sAviOr and iloveoov. All time great players such as BoxeR, iloveoov, and sAviOr all had roughly half the number of wins NaDa had accumulated. NaDa was usurped partly due to the change in circumstances, and there was nothing he could do except hope that his prime years would be in sync with a period where you could get literally hundreds of ProLeague victories given a couple years of great form. However, NaDa was still the all time ProLeague leader for victories until 2008, whereas Jaedong held that title from 2009 to 2011. Considering in one single season, Bisu managed to get 63 wins during his much praised 2010/2011 ProLeague effort, you get the idea of how skewed the comparison can get if you don't factor in the change in circumstances. One great year in the ProLeague in the more recent era was enough to usurp years of absolute top tier ProLeague performances. So once you factor in the circumstances of their achievements, there is almost no doubt in my mind that NaDa's has accumulated more accomplishments during his career, although Flash's overall body of work is extra-ordinary for a career that only lasted about half as long. What Flash has in his favour, is quality rather than quantity. Judging from the trajectory of his career by the time professional Brood War ended, it would be fair to assume that Flash would have gone on to accomplish more than any other player in history even if new superstars sprung left and right like they did when professional Brood War scene was more vibrant. However, we're not here to talk about assumptions, or how devoid of failures someone's career has, we're talking about actual accomplishments, and NaDa is the greatest player of all time in that particular regard. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia18992 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 28 2017 22:58 BisuDagger wrote: Letmelose, I 100% agree with your analysis of the protoss players. Thank you so much as I know have a great post to reference for this eternal debate. I want to ask the hard questions now and I'll keep it protoss related for now. Which protoss player was the most influential in regards to revolutionizing builds for protoss matchups? I'm curious if you would state someone such as Nal_rA or someone more current. I'm really out of my depth with these kinds of topics, I suggest that you do your own extensive research before coming to conclusion that might be influenced by my posts. With that said, this is who I think was most influential protoss player in terms of shaping the current iteration of the meta-game played by the protoss players. I have minimal confidence in the accuracy of any of the statements below. + Show Spoiler + So what is the single biggest shift in the meta-game? I personally believe that it is the discovery of making the acquisition of extra bases viable, whether it is through the use of new units, building placements, or build optimizations, that is the single most important step in the evolution of how the game is played today. Terran players have iloveoov to thank for introducing the monumental strength of early expansion before building academy. Zerg players were used to playing with two hatcheries in order to counter the fast tech from the one base focused terran play, but didn't think to adjust to the more economy focused game plan from iloveoov, but thankfully sAviOr came round. Zerg players have sAviOr to thank for moving away from two hatchery builds that simply didn't have enough larva count to support both the drone count and the army count necessary for the acquisition of three bases. For the protoss race, Nal_rA was probably the most influential in terms of moving away from one base play. Of course, double nexus builds were used since the dawn of time, but were discarded due to it's inability to prevent the zerg from taking over the entire map. Nal_rA started to move away from the one-gateway play he was famed for, and optimized cannon placements to make the pay-off of an early expansion more viable, and utilized the high-tech units he enjoyed using with his one-gateway builds to harass the zerg economy. Double nexus builds became all the rage, and replaced the traditional one base play that was used against the zerg race beforehand. Of course, the protoss players were also helped by the map makers who saw the potential of this great equalizer of this dire match-up, and did their part to aid the spread of this new trend by making the the building placements easier to plan. The double nexus builds went through many iterations, before being mastered at the hands of Bisu, who truly became one with the build. I think his largest contribution towards the match-up was the re-discovery of corsairs, which were previously merely used as aerial scouts, but I was reminded of how sAviOr used his mutalisks to buy time against the terran race. Bisu forced the zerg player to react to his corsairs, and dark templars, and made zerg players wish they had pylons or supply depots instead of overlords. So the role sAviOr had in the meta-game advancement in ZvT in terms of build optimization (the shift from two hatchery builds into three hatchery builds), and tapping the full potential of certain units (although defilers were used by the zerg race, sAviOr was responsible for making the defiler a must have unit in the match up) was shared by Nal_rA and Bisu in the PvZ match-up. Nal_rA was responsible for the build optimization, and build placements, and tried in his own way to break the tradition with his extensive use of corsairs and reavers, but it was Bisu that truly showed how to bring the build to life through his immaculate corsair usage. The PvT match-up was modernized by PuSan, who popularized the optimization of mass gateway builds, and most importantly was the one that showed the overpowered nature of the correct gateway optimization coupled with smart utilization of arbiters. Although mass gateways wasn't a new concept, PuSan played his part in optimizing the economy for it (which is why his protege Anytime was famous for macro, and used it for his So1 OGN StarLeague triumph), and most importantly used it in tandem with arbiter usage, a until that was employed mostly for cheese strategies beforehand. This basic set-up is how the match-up is played to this date, unchanged in it's fundamental philosophy since it's popularization by PuSan in 2005. So these are the figures I think were the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements for the protoss race. Nal_rA, Bisu, and PuSan. It is not as obvious like it is for the other two races, who had massive game changers in iloveoov and sAviOr, who also happened to dominate the scene for years on end thanks to their new found weaponry. I personally believe PuSan was just as influential as the other two more famous names in protoss history, but his back-to-back semi-final appearances (the first being that miraculous turn-around by BoxeR in So1 OGN StarLeague, and then second being thwarted at the hands of July, who couldn't give two shits about what PuSan had done in the PvT match-up and stomped his teammates nuts) simply wasn't memorable enough for fans to truly praise PuSan for his contributions as he faded away into obscurity afterwards. If I had to choose one player for sheer influence, I'd choose Nal_rA. Not because he changed a single match-up more so than any other in history, but because of he spent his entire career trying to come up with new build orders, and new unit compositions and utilizations. Whether it was trying out nexus first builds against Casy in 2006, doing hallucination recalls against GoodFriend in 2004, or trying out new building placements to minimize his photon cannon count, Nal_rA was the single biggest force in showing the power of thinking from another angle within the protoss race, and his perhaps unpolished attempts at raising the protoss race to the next level were probably incredibly influential to the final touches made by the next generation of protoss revolutionaries. If I had to choose one player for single-handedly modernizing an entire match-up, I'd probably go with PuSan. If I had to choose one player for taking the match-up to the next level, I'd go with Bisu. It's hard to distinguish exactly how much he changed the match-up because of his aptitude at the match-up, and how much he changed it due to his alterations from previous approaches to the match-up. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
[1] http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/257107-twitter-q-and-a-stork Sorry for offing the topic. I find it hard to wait two more days to see Reach playing again. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 29 2017 02:01 PVJ wrote: I think Stork also mentioned it in one of his interviews[1] that his constant interest in finding new ways was his motivation for keeping on playing. As a longtime fan I'm wondering what his and the Samsung Protoss line's legacy is. After reading these through it seems his achievements and improvements will always be in a kind of stasis, above most players but never quite outshining some more groundbreaking developments. I'm not trying to complain or moan, and it's not like I am trying do devalue his body of work, don't misunderstand. His far and wide my fav player still, only Midas coming close. It's just how it seems to me after connecting the dots based on the really well composed and reasoned discussions in this thread. [1] http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/257107-twitter-q-and-a-stork Sorry for offing the topic. I find it hard to wait two more days to see Reach playing again. One thing I loved about the Samgsung Khan protosses were their mastery of various units against the terran race. This can be seen in what I consider as Stork's peak performance in 2007, where he was the forerunner (not sure if he was the one to create it) of the popular reaver-carrier strategy. It was the subtle grace he had with his units that made the build so powerful rather than how revolutionary the build itself was, and I don't think there were many protoss players in the modern era who could say they had truly made carriers a part of their arsenal. I think most would agree that Stork did justice to the strong image carriers more so than any other protoss player in history. However despite the huge prowess both Samsung Khan protosses showed in the match-up, I actually think it was BeSt (with heavy input from perhaps the greatest build innovator in history, iloveoov) that completed the PvT modernization that PuSan had started. Stork always dealt with his units with effortless grace, and that was a trait that could be seen in JangBi also. The fact that they were not the epicentre of the most ground breaking innovations for the protoss race did not stop them from having some of the most productive careers in Brood War history. I'm of the belief that even the most mind boggling meta-game revolutions are mere means to an end, which is winning. FanTaSy was responsible for the single largest meta-game advancement for the terran race in the more recent years (the creation of the monstrosity that is late-mech), not Flash, but from a pure competitive standpoint, it can be considered as a mere trivia. Every innovation that is done, is retroactively judged by the success it has brought its innovator. It is why Bisu is known for the "Bisu build", not DaezanG, it is why Shark is mostly forgotten in history despite bringing to light the single most impactful micromanagement advancement in the history of professional Brood War (try to imagine the careers of any modern day zerg professional if you take away their mutalisk micromanagement). Had PuSan won So1 OGN StarLeague instead of Anytime, his legacy as a great innovator would have been quadrupled at the least, even if his actual strategical input was no different. Perhaps this is just the tip of the iceberg, considering we have next to zero data on how certain innovations came into fruition during practice. Even if we were to backtrack, and watch every single televised Brood War games ever played, we still wouldn't have a clear understanding of how certain strategies came to be. Trying to judge players on this particular basis is next to impossible for mere spectators, and even the professional players who were active at the time don't always remember how certain builds came to be. | ||
LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
On June 28 2017 03:55 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On June 28 2017 02:29 BisuDagger wrote: On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 timesg Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Letmelose, first off I love every post you make. In that spirit, please explain the best Protoss of all time and of each match up. <3 Please and thank you! (I won't get angry if you don't list Bisu in all the categories) In my personal opinion, it really depends on how you define what a best player is. However, there is an easy answer that satisfies most of those definitions though to a good degree, and that is Bisu, which is why so many people have Bisu as their number one protoss player of all time. For example, for other races, it simply is not the case. Take the terran race for example, BoxeR is the most iconic terran player, NaDa is the most accomplished terran player, iloveoov is the most influential terran player in terms of meta-game advancements, and Flash is the most skilled terran player in absolute terms and his career record is the least tainted out of any player in history (Flash has only failed to reach the round of 16 on four separate occasions since his debut throughout his entire career, and this record is the most insane, and most looked over record in all of professional Brood War history in my opinion). Bisu is probably the most iconic protoss player of all time (I personally think his popularity superseded that of Reach, though others may disagree), he is perhaps the most accomplished (although I think I can give strong arguments in favour of Stork), he also is one of the most influential in terms of meta-game advancements (alongside other revolutionary thinkers in Nal_rA and PuSan), and on top of that, he always had a ridiculously high skill cap (I used to think JangBi had a higher skill cap, but I think I was wrong on that account). There simply isn't an easy answer that more or less fits into differing opinions on what constitutes the "greatest player of all time" for the other two races, which is also why Jaedong will always be in the shadow of sAviOr to some despite dwarfing the latter in terms of career accomplishments. So the safe, and easy answer will always be Bisu. However, if you only look at career accomplishments as professional gamers (which is the most objective method of assessment in my opinion), I sometimes think Stork has a stronger case, but I think Bisu is a perfectly fine number one for that particular category also depending on how you weigh their body of work. It's the same for each of the match-ups also. Do you factor in absolute skill? What about contributions made towards the match-up? Do you look at peak level performance, or how strong they were throughout their entire careers? How do you weigh these differing categories if they should all be taken to account? Even ex-professionals have huge discrepancies on this particular topic, depending on how well they played against the player in question (if they had a stylistic weakness against someone, they tend to rate them more), depending on the era (older players rate older gamers more, and newer generations rate their comrades higher), as well as their own personal criteria of what constitutes a great player. So given the fact that it basically is impossible to get a general consensus on these issues, I tend to only look at results, and try to judge holistically, by gathering as much information as I can, rather than going off vibes and memories of particularly memorable tournaments. 1) P v T The first player to spring to mind was Stork. Given the fact that he won more PvT matches than any other protoss in history, and his career win percentage is the highest amongst players with over 100 matches played (which disqualifies players such as SnOw. Stork is also the record holder for the longest win streak in KeSPA officiated games. Yes JangBi has a slightly higher TLPD peak ELO, and has never been defeated in a BO5 against a terran player, I can't question the fact that JangBi firing all cylinders was a magic to behold, and I've always been a fan of his inhuman skills, but I do believe Stork has simply been more on point throughout his career, and you can't just select the best moments of JangBi versus FanTaSy, and contrast that to the time when Stork got exposed against Flash and FanTaSy, when you can take so many more numerous occasions of Stork outperforming JangBi in this particular match-up throughout their careers, even though JangBi's moments of PvT failures weren't as memorable. 2) P v Z If anyone takes anyone but Bisu, they are retarded. Bisu is in possession of perhaps that biggest outlier just in terms of a single match-up, not just within the protoss race, but any match-up by any single player in the game's history. Bisu's versus zerg match-up should be compared with other all time great single match-up performances such as Jaedong's zerg versus zerg performances. 3) P v P I am the least sure on this topic. I think the title has to go to Bisu, although Stork has more overall PvP match victories, and Horang2 has a slightly higher win percentage with his limited game pool, Bisu has the highest win rate out of anyone with over a 100 matches, and has an impeccable record in BO5 series. After all, Bisu's PvP prowess has been the unsung hero during his career that got him his numerous titles when the map pool was favourable for the protoss race. He shut out Nal_rA (who had great PvP records at the time) in the semi-finals for his first ever trophy, he defeated Stork for his second trophy when Stork was having the performance of his life time in the match-up (although Stork probably should have taken the win in the fifth game), and bested JangBi in back-to-back finals (Clubday MSL and GomTV Classic S2). I mean so many of these topics can be interpreted in different ways, but this is my personal take on it. dude, I think I love you. p/s: please go on writing more awesome shit | ||
gngfn
United States1726 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4455 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4455 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
On June 30 2017 01:39 Peeano wrote: left till Afreeca's servers break. If he streams shirtless the whole internet explodes | ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. + Show Spoiler + If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Good post, Letmelose, but let me play devil's advocate: You mentioned that Reach's Ro8/Ro16 appearances were of special significance because there was almost no Protoss representation in that time. Well, from 2005 to 2012, only three OSLs were won by a Protoss and two of those titles were from Jangbi. If you throw in the MSL you have Bisu winning a bunch, but I'll still argue that the Jaedong/Flash era of KeSPA (2008--2012) had a dearth of Protoss title winners and that Jangbi's winning 2 out of 4 Protoss titles in that era is as impressive as Reach carrying the Protoss banner in Ro16s. Edit: Thanks for killing it in this thread with all these in-depth and informative posts | ||
]343[
United States10327 Posts
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 30 2017 03:41 Djabanete wrote: Show nested quote + On June 27 2017 21:58 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 21:42 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 21:03 Letmelose wrote: On June 27 2017 05:21 2Pacalypse- wrote: On June 27 2017 05:18 Last Romantic wrote: Objectively, Reach's career is probably top ~15 overall, top ~5 for Protoss (would put him after Stork, Bisu, Nal_rA and ahead of Jangbi, Anytime, Kingdom, etc). It's hard to assess players across eras though. There's something about 2004-2006 BW that speaks to me As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner during, arguably, the highest competitive level of progaming era. By that logic anyone who didn't make a mark in the final years of professional Brood War becomes obsolete, to varying degrees, depending on how much bias towards the most recent eras you decide to figure in. That wasn't the point I was making at all. Here's a revised version: As much as I love Reach (my first and only progamer that I actually loved), it's hard to put him ahead of double OSL winner. + Show Spoiler + If you take away your initial point of how the more recent eras of professional Brood War should count for more, than how much emphasis are you willing to put on that single extra OGN StarLeague title? JangBi's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 2 times 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 5 times Round of eight or above: 6 times Round of sixteen or above: 8 times Reach's performance in OGN StarLeague/MSL 1st place: 1 time 2nd place or above: 4 times Round of four or above: 6 times Round of eight or above: 12 times Round of sixteen or above: 18 times While JangBi has a single title above Reach, Reach has qualified for the round of sixteen 10 more times, round of eight 6 more times, and the round of four 1 more time. In addition, as I mentioned before, multiple of these lower round appearances made by Reach was as the sole representative of his race in the league, while none of JangBi's lower round placements were of a significant value from that particular perspective. Depending on how you weigh these results, it's not too much of a stretch to say that Reach has accumulated a more productive career. While JangBi may have shined brighter, Reach has consistency on his side, as well as being more of a towering figurehead for his race during his time at the top. It's not that clear cut who is above whom in terms of their overall career results in my opinion. The real question would be how much do you value a championship compared to other placements. If it is of absolute value, then you must be of the belief that hydra is a greater player than YellOw by the virtue of his single MSL triumph that was achieved in an era that was more "competitive" than before. Good post, Letmelose, but let me play devil's advocate: You mentioned that Reach's Ro8/Ro16 appearances were of special significance because there was almost no Protoss representation in that time. Well, from 2005 to 2012, only three OSLs were won by a Protoss and two of those titles were from Jangbi. If you throw in the MSL you have Bisu winning a bunch, but I'll still argue that the Jaedong/Flash era of KeSPA (2008--2012) had a dearth of Protoss title winners and that Jangbi's winning 2 out of 4 Protoss titles in that era is as impressive as Reach carrying the Protoss banner in Ro16s. Edit: Thanks for killing it in this thread with all these in-depth and informative posts It really is a question of whether you prefer quantity or quality. From the precise point of who was carrying the banner for the protoss race, it is hard to devalue a two time champion, considering the scarcity of protoss champions throughout the years compared to the other two races. For some, it is of absolute value, and all other metrics discussed before, or the ones I'm about to bring forth doesn't hold a candle to the fact that JangBi achieved what no protoss player had done for years, not once, but twice in a row. With that in mind, based on the point system I explained before (the rankings posted on PGR21), the actual number of times these players were the leading the charge for the protoss race (whether it ended in failure or not) shows some noticeable disparity, with the difference getting even larger if you take into account the number of times they were the second, or third best performing protoss in the individual leagues. Based on the metric discussed in the PGR21 post where you were awarded based on how you placed within your own race, Reach had 556 points, and ranked above the likes of Stork, Nal_rA, and Bisu. JangBi, by that specific metric, has a measly 222 points, and drags behind the likes of Kingdom, or Kal. As flawed as the system might be, if Reach had over twice the number of points accumulated over the years, it does prove that even though Reach may lack the grandiose nature of JangBi's accomplishments, other metrics bring to light how Reach far exceeds JangBi in terms of other measures. Here's another way to look at it. How about we reward the players by their heroics in terms of how far they progressed as the sole representative of their race. No points for being the all the times they were the second or third best protoss, just the number of times they struggled onwards as only surviving member of the protoss race. No participation prize here, just the number of times they actually tried to hard carry the pride of the protoss race in the league all by themselves. Instances where JangBi was the leading figure for the protoss race: + Show Spoiler + 1) Lost Saga MSL (0 points) Finals: After eliminating his teammate Stork in the semi-finals, he is the sole protoss player in the finals, and loses it to Luxury. Considering he was left alone after he was in the finals, and failed to gain the title (as in progressing past the finals bracket stage), he is rewarded with 0 points. 2) Jin Air OGN StarLeague (3 points) Round of 8 ~ Championship: After Stork is eliminated in the round of 16, JangBi remains the sole representative of the race, and progresses through three brackets to become the champion. 3) Tving OGN StarLeague (2 points) Round of 4 ~ Championship: After eliminating his only protoss comrade Mini in the round of 8, JangBi progresses through two brackets to become the champion. Total number of brackets JangBi progressed as the sole protoss player: 5 + Show Spoiler + 1) 3rd KPGA Tournament (2 points) Round of 8 ~ Finals: After being the only protoss to make it to the knock-out round stages, Reach progresses through two brackets, then loses the finals to NaDa. 2) SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague (3 points) Round of 8 ~ Championship: The tournament that was the pinnacle of Reach's heroics. Foreshadowing the heroics of JangBi nearly ten years before, Reach remains the sole representative of the race after GARIMTO fails to make it past the round of 16, and progresses through three brackets to become the champion. 3) Gillette OGN StarLeague (1 point) Round of 4 ~ Finals: Reach is left as the only protoss player in the round of four after ZeuS, and Kingdom are knocked out in the round of eight. He eventually loses against July in the finals. 4) EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague (1 points) Round of 8 ~ Finals: After being the only protoss to make it to the knock-out round stages, Reach progresses through one round before losing to iloveoov in the semi-finals. 5) IOPS OGN StarLeague (0 points) Round of 16: Reach is the only protoss player in this zerg, and terran infested StarLeague only by the virtue of his seeding due to his third place finish in the previous StarLeague, and fails to reach the round of eight. 6) EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague (0 points) Round of 8: Reach is the only protoss player to make it to the round of eight as other protoss players such as Stork fails to join him. He however fails to make it past the round of eight versus GoRush as the sole protoss representative. 7) UZOO MSL (1 point) Round of 4 ~ Finals: Reach is the only protoss player left in the round of four after the other two protoss players are knocked out in the round of eight. He makes it to the finals, but falls short to the player who'll eventually change his ID to sAviOr. Total number of brackets Reach progressed as the sole protoss player: 8 Now in case you don't realize how insane that number of brackets progressed as the single remaining member of the protoss race is (as you can see, being the only protoss player in the round of eight, then getting knocked out immediately doesn't count, it's actually progressing as the sole protoss hope that gives you the nod), some of the most successful protoss players in history such as Stork and Bisu hits a number that is a fraction of the size discussed above (2 compared to the 8 accomplished by Reach). Bisu is hurt by the fact that all his individual league triumphs were mostly PvP fests (all his three titles had protoss as the most plentiful race in the round of four, with one being an all protoss affair in the round of four), and Stork had this tendency in his career to do about as well as the best performing protoss player apart from himself, and not an inch more than that. There's only three players in history who beats Reach by this particular metric. Considering that these three players are widely regarded as the three most accomplished players in history, and basically is at the top of the food chain no matter which metric you use almost all of the time, it is worth noting that Reach, with this particular set of rules, has done more heroics for his race than the likes of sAviOr, who is one of the most fabled for doing what no other zerg could do, when in fact he never had a moment in his career when he was the sole member of his race in the round of 8, never mind the round of 16. + Show Spoiler + Flash: 14 Jaedong: 12 NaDa: 9 This isn't even about their overall body of work as one of the best performing protoss players, but the times they were clearly the best performing protoss players of these leagues. Of course, JangBi's heroics landed him two OGN StarLeague titles, but it's not like Reach was failing as the only protoss in the round of 16 all the time. Reach himself managed to push through against the odds in his most memorable SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague, and also had times he was the only protoss representative in the bracket stages. If Reach was only doing the latter, as in, "carrying the Protoss banner in Ro16s", I could see why JangBi's heroics would be much more impressive, but Reach was doing the entire spectrum of protoss heroics, all the way from being the only OGN StarLeague protoss player in the round of 16, to winning the entire goddamned title. Sure from a pure championship winning perspective, JangBi had ended a long lasting drought (the longest in history) of a protoss player winning a championship. That should not be taken lightly, but nor should Reach's years of stoic heroics as the player that managed to defy the odds as the only ray of hope for the protoss race in the darkest of times. Ironically, Reach didn't manage to win a single title when they were rigging all these island maps in order to produce protoss champions. He was more the carrier of the torch when it seemed to be the darkest of times for the protoss race. JangBi did exactly that in the dying years of professional Brood War, but did little besides that. Stork and Bisu were the leading figures of the glorious protoss days of the "Six Dragons" but when the other dragons crashed and burned to the ground like Reach's fellow comrades often did, they would regularly follow suit. In terms of being the sole hope of the protoss race, no other player in history can touch Reach in that specific regard in my opinion. | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
PS. Does anyone recall the game between Reach and Flash in the relatively modern era (late KeSPA) when Reach dropped four HTs out of a shuttle and broke a huge push from Flash on Tau Cross? I forget who won but that was a great showing from Reach long after he was already an old-timer. | ||
TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
However, from my own personal preference of weighing career achievements, I weigh the extra 10 round of sixteen appearances, extra 6 round of eight appearances, and an extra round of four appearance slightly more than the one extra title JangBi has. I tend to value each round of progression by a factor of two, which makes sense mathematically in my opinion. Every round starting from the round of 16, eliminates half the player pool, until only one remains. As such, I value a single championship approximately the same as two final appearances, four semi-finals appearances, eight quarter-finals appearances, or sixteen round of 16 appearances. I completely understand if someone has a different method of weighing various placements, but you have to have a system in place, and be consistent with it. If you have a value system that rates each round progression by a factor three, for example, the difference in 1st place becomes almost too large for anyone to overcome. For example, the entirety of Stork's career achievements is overshadowed by that one extra OGN StarLeague title that JangBi has despite having a more productive career in terms of the following: + Show Spoiler + Extra finals appearances: 1 Extra semi-finals appearances: 3 Extra quarter-finals appearances: 6 Extra round of 16 appearances: 16 By this particular metric, JangBi, by the virtue of his two titles is the second greatest protoss of all time based on their performance in major individual leagues alone. Moving away from a pure numerical perspective, and taking the circumstances into account, there's still arguments to be had in my mind, although it becomes much more subjective. Take that single OGN StarLeague JangBi has over Reach out of the equation and you have FanTaSy becoming a two time OGN StarLegue winner instead of JangBi. The protoss race has a single championship title since 2009. That is pretty significant. On the flip side, turn all those extra appearances Reach has over JangBi into dust, you'll be left individual leagues with close to zero memorable protoss performances. The protoss race won't even be a thought in some. Our entire memories of some of the past StarLeagues might as well be ongoing TvT snore fests, with a few zergs mixed in here and there for good measure. Just a bunch of forgettable no name protosses dropping out of the league without even a whimper, who only to make their presence felt whenever "Legend of the Fall" map pools come round, as if they were participants of a special Olympics while terran and zerg players were duking it out in the big kids table. No more do we have stories of Reach battling iloveoov in the semi-finals, pushing him to the limit in a macro-management fest like no protoss had done before, and overcoming YellOw on Mercury for the 3rd place seed, an abomination of a map that spelled the death of protosses. Instead we just might have the story of XellOs (knocked out by Reach in the quarter-finals) flaunting his TvT prowess all the way to victory in the most boring championship ever. No epic TvP manly epicness between iloveoov and Reach remembered for the ages, no epic trademark BoxeR bionic play in TvT in the finals of all places, just XellOs with his -_- face stomping iloveoov and BoxeR in clinical boring fashion. We no longer have the times we had Reach as the only protoss hope in the round of 8, or the round of 16. No more heartbreaks as we see the final protoss fall against GoRush, being one victory away from a semi-finals draw versus GoodFriend. Just a bunch of mediocre protoss players failing to reach the bracket-stage, or no protosses at all, not even a thought. Reach's performance were vital in keeping the protoss race relevant in one form or the other for quite some time, even most were in the theme of "valiantly fought, but ultimately vanquished", until the next generation of protoss players were ready to take over the leading role. Although it is Reach's own doing that he wasn't the beneficiary of leagues that were obviously taylored towards protoss triumph, he more than makes up for it with his lone wolf adventures versus the monsters of various eras such as NaDa, BoxeR, July, iloveoov, and sAviOr. | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On June 29 2017 01:27 Last Romantic wrote: I do think it's interesting that all 3 of those players remain active in the scene - perhaps the draw of innovation results in a stronger long-term pull. The fact that the metagame is still changing is a testament to how serendipitous BW really is. The Chess comparison is really old, but the fact that some people have been involved in the game as relevant players (first as competitors, then as elder statesman) shows that it really is an enduring phenomenon. Even for an older game, like the Super Mario Bros., the longest active Speedrunner I know is AndrewG, who has been playing in some capacity for 15-20 years. Obviously it's a completely different realm, where it takes years to shave off fractions of a second off of an extremely optimized run, and that's the point. The Super Mario Bros. has almost been "solved." StarCraft can't be. I think the parallels are all there with any real sport. Like Kobe Bryant played ball long past his physical prime because his knowledge and abilities were still relevant, and basketball was gong anywhere. And special players can go on to cast, announce, etc. And this is all vindicated by the fact that Blizzard has finally decided to embrace their older games rather than trying to quash them because they aren't getting enough royalties. Remastered coming out, SCII slowing down, and old Gosus returning, even if not to the top ranks, all show that BW's success was far from an accident, and is far from over. Obviously the amateur scene has been going strong in Korea for a while now, but Blizzard's actual attempt to help rather than hinder this time shows the stars may be aligning. BW in the Olympics next? | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On June 30 2017 13:09 Djabanete wrote: Well reasoned. I like this metric of counting the number of times someone is the last man standing of their own race, or alternatively the number of times someone advances after already being the last man standing. Here's looking forward to seeing some good games from Reach. PS. Does anyone recall the game between Reach and Flash in the relatively modern era (late KeSPA) when Reach dropped four HTs out of a shuttle and broke a huge push from Flash on Tau Cross? I forget who won but that was a great showing from Reach long after he was already an old-timer. I remember that game. Flash wins in the end, but I allowed myself to hope.. | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On June 30 2017 16:43 Last Romantic wrote: Show nested quote + On June 30 2017 13:09 Djabanete wrote: Well reasoned. I like this metric of counting the number of times someone is the last man standing of their own race, or alternatively the number of times someone advances after already being the last man standing. Here's looking forward to seeing some good games from Reach. PS. Does anyone recall the game between Reach and Flash in the relatively modern era (late KeSPA) when Reach dropped four HTs out of a shuttle and broke a huge push from Flash on Tau Cross? I forget who won but that was a great showing from Reach long after he was already an old-timer. I remember that game. Flash wins in the end, but I allowed myself to hope.. ACE was always my favorite to watch, rightahead of KTF. With ACE it was just literally always legends LOL. And you could see glimpses of their greatness so often, even though their practice time and partners were more limited. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On June 30 2017 01:39 Peeano wrote: left till Afreeca's servers break. | ||
JWD[9]
364 Posts
If I watch directly over afreeca there is a quality button, that helps for now. | ||
Ares[Effort]
DEMACIA6550 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On June 30 2017 21:29 Ares[Effort] wrote: Reach vs Flash #hypuuuuuuuu | ||
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17708 Posts
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
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Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
Thanks. | ||
Glueburn
United States496 Posts
The afreeca vod won't let me seek through the video, and I don't particularly want to sit through 4 hours to get to the parts that I like. Hopefully he can get added to the lovely Korhal website! | ||
thedeadhaji
39470 Posts
On July 02 2017 06:05 Djabanete wrote: Why are the TL.net sages not telling us what happened? Against whom did Reach play? Were they swept away by his wrath or what? Final scores? Thanks. I think he played a few games against NaDa and lost all games (a few were definitely interesting), but it's hard to tell since it was hard to scroll through the video >_> | ||
Glueburn
United States496 Posts
On July 02 2017 13:29 thedeadhaji wrote: Show nested quote + On July 02 2017 06:05 Djabanete wrote: Why are the TL.net sages not telling us what happened? Against whom did Reach play? Were they swept away by his wrath or what? Final scores? Thanks. I think he played a few games against NaDa and lost all games (a few were definitely interesting), but it's hard to tell since it was hard to scroll through the video >_> I remember him playing a few games against Flash too, but he also lost those. | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On July 03 2017 22:04 esdf wrote: it's impossible to watch. constant buffering Try to watch it on Afreeca with quality set to `Medium` instead of `Source` | ||
Glueburn
United States496 Posts
http://ddaogi.net/#!/templates/af_ucc_downloader.php Insert the link to an afreeca vod, and then it will split the vod into hour long mp4s. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
terran using wraiths effectively: first to intercept a shuttle, then to harras while sniping observers, sniped arbiter, transitioned into BCs. reach in shock a bit *_* replay revealed a hidden expo while T had map dominance with cloaked wraiths. | ||
GTR
51126 Posts
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCe0ewMqSTSahaUeOC_fIOwQ | ||
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Th1rdEye
United States1074 Posts
This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On July 20 2017 22:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Everyone streams these days... Everyone is so excited... but do you guys really have that much time to waste to watch other people play BW? It's not a surprise that everyone and their mother streams, I mean shit, it's 2017.... This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. lol. Not everyone is interested in becoming extremely good at BW by putting all their free time into playing the game. People are free to be excited about their favourite player streaming. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On July 20 2017 22:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Everyone streams these days... Everyone is so excited... but do you guys really have that much time to waste to watch other people play BW? It's not a surprise that everyone and their mother streams, I mean shit, it's 2017.... This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. Why do people watch waste time listening to music instead of becoming the next Mozart themselves? Why do people read novels when they can become the next J.R.R. Tolkien? Why do people waste time indulging in the craft of their heroes? Why are people excited to buy the newly released albums of their favourite bands? If every endeavor except becoming better at Brood War is of no use to you, I suggest you stop worrying about the negative influence Reach's stream has on people, and go on your merry way to becoming the next great hope for North America. | ||
JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On July 20 2017 22:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Everyone streams these days... Everyone is so excited... but do you guys really have that much time to waste to watch other people play BW? It's not a surprise that everyone and their mother streams, I mean shit, it's 2017.... This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. Happens in sports too. Most people watch instead of trying to go pro (proportionally speaking). So your statement is more accurately applied to overall human nature instead of merely in the foreigner BW scene. | ||
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On July 20 2017 23:30 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2017 22:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Everyone streams these days... Everyone is so excited... but do you guys really have that much time to waste to watch other people play BW? It's not a surprise that everyone and their mother streams, I mean shit, it's 2017.... This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. Why do people watch waste time listening to music instead of becoming the next Mozart themselves? Why do people read novels when they can become the next J.R.R. Tolkien? Why do people waste time indulging in the craft of their heroes? Why are people excited to buy the newly released albums of their favourite bands? If every endeavor except becoming better at Brood War is of no use to you, I suggest you stop worrying about the negative influence Reach's stream has on people, and go on your merry way to becoming the next great hope for North America. slowclap On July 20 2017 22:58 Th1rdEye wrote: Everyone streams these days... Everyone is so excited... but do you guys really have that much time to waste to watch other people play BW? It's not a surprise that everyone and their mother streams, I mean shit, it's 2017.... This is why North America never got good at BW... always wasting time doing things that aren't actually playing BW. Personally, I tried to play BW again after 6-7 years break from playing on ICCup. Simply, I don't find joy anymore in beating other people, and I don't find joy in perfecting my mechanics, both of which I did in the past. In the past I preferred more to play than watch, but now I only enjoy watching occasionally. A couple of hours a week. Not like anyone needs to justify themselves to you, but I chose to. People are allowed to get excited about various things. | ||
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