Hey guys, I'd be interested in what everyone seems to view as the "standard" strategies that are used for in each of the matchups right now? Not necessarily limited to "only korean pros" or "only foreign amateurs", but if you want to go into detail when there are differences, then go ahead
Some of the ones I could think of (but correct me if I'm wrong), are:
PvP: 2 Gate Reaver with early Observers (either off of 1 or 2 Gate Core openings) PvT: 1 Gate Core into Reaver harass (not sure about that) PvZ: Neo Bisu Build (+1 Sair/Speedlots)
TvP: Flash Build (Double Armory off of Siege Expand) TvT: not sure tbh, I think dropship plays? TvZ: 2 Rax FE (Marine+Medic? not sure tbh)
ZvP: not sure here either, I think it's either 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra, or simply 6 Hatch Hydra right now? ZvT: no idea :o I would assume Ultralings with Muta support? ZvZ: Muta vs Muta? no idea either
Looking forward to everyone's opinions!
Edit: Should've maybe mentioned that the reason why I ask this, is that Liquipedia seems kinda outdated in some of their build orders/guides. For example they still mention the original bisu build (sair/dt) as the standard pvz one, but if I'm not wrong the creation of the 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra build made the original bisu build obsolete, which lead to the neo bisu build? etc
TvP: 1 fax fe into fast 3rd / double upgrade. Can be both siege expand or ~4 marines, 2 tanks + vults and mines depending on scouting Second standard opening is 1 rax fe.
TvT: 1 fax 20 cc. Can go a lot of ways from there. I'd consider 1 rax fe also pretty standard. Mid game is usually vults + tank and some dropship play or wraiths mixed in.
TvZ: 1 rax fe into 5 rax +1 at the moment. But then again if somebody plays 4 rax +1 or 9 minute push I wouldn't say it's non standard either.
Then again, I am not quite sure what you are looking for when you ask for standard play as your initial ideas switch from opening bo's to general game plan so I I don't know what exactly you are looking for.
On September 25 2017 21:42 Keniji wrote: The most standard builds for Terran are imo:
TvP: 1 fax fe into fast 3rd / double upgrade. Can be both siege expand or ~4 marines, 2 tanks + vults and mines depending on scouting Second standard opening is 1 rax fe.
TvT: 1 fax 20 cc. Can go a lot of ways from there. I'd consider 1 rax fe also pretty standard. Mid game is usually vults + tank and some dropship play or wraiths mixed in.
TvZ: 1 rax fe into 5 rax +1 at the moment. But then again if somebody plays 4 rax +1 or 9 minute push I wouldn't say it's non standard either.
Then again, I am not quite sure what you are looking for when you ask for standard play as your initial ideas switch from opening bo's to general game plan so I I don't know what exactly you are looking for.
Hey, yeah, I just edited my main post while you were replying, sorry The main reason why I ask this is because liquipedia matchup guides and build order descriptions seem to be slightly out of date, like mentioning the sair/dt as standard in pvz, while the introduction of 3 base spire into 5 hatch hydra made that obsolete, leading to the neo bisu build, and so on
Edit: Also, what you describe as "fast 3rd" in the TvP is the double armory/flash build, according to what I read in liquipedias matchup guide, is that correct?
Quote: Transition II: Fast Third Rather than bringing the fight to the Protoss with a Five Factory Push, Terran can Match Protoss' Third Gas Expansion and transition straight into the late game. This falls under Double Armory.
Zerg-versus-zerg builds as explained by a post on YGOSU:
1) 9 pool speed
vs 9 over-pool: hard vs gas first: very hard (need to kill/or make opponent cancel hatchery with 2 drone sunken rush) vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to kill four drones to even things out) vs 12 hatch: free win if you know what you are doing vs twin hatch: easy
9 over-pool
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs gas first: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to go lair ASAP) vs 12 hatch: depends vs twin hatch: hard
2) Gas first
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: free win if you know what you are doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard vs 12 hatch: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs twin hatch: hard
3) 12 pool hatch:
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: easy vs gas first: easy vs 12 hatch: hard (need to pump 4 drones and stop opponents attack with sim-city/sunken colony) vs twin hatch: depends
4) 12 hatch
vs 9 pool speed: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: free win if you know what you are doing (make lots of zerglings) vs 12 pool hatch: easy vs twin hatch: easy
5) Twin hatch
vs 9 pool speed: very hard vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: easy vs 12 pool hatch: depends vs 12 hatch: hard
6) Others
5 pool: Loses to anything other than hatch first builds
I started writing and then the text got massive and I realized that was better suited for a post in the strategy forums.
TLDR;
TvZ: 1 rax 15 CC or 1 rax 19 CC (Depending on whether you scouted Z first or not) TvP: 1 rax 15 CC or 1 fac CC (Sometimes map dependent but mostly style of choice, FD openings offer better utility than siege expands though if you go fac CC, which is why we don't see the siege expand so often) TvT: 1 rax 15 CC or 1 fac CC then it all comes down to adjusting to the intel you gather about your opponent. Rule of thumb is usually if opponent is opting for 2 fac or 1 fac 1 port before expansion, you put down port yourself, start a bunker, get siege tanks with siege mode to survive the ineviteable aggression. If your opponent fast expands as well you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want (additional factory or port straight after fac) but I'd say the most standard reaction would be to add a 2nd and 3rd factory in that case and start academy to be able to tell what your opponent is doing.
On September 25 2017 22:46 Letmelose wrote: Zerg-versus-zerg builds as explained by a post on YGOSU:
1) 9 pool speed
vs 9 over-pool: hard vs gas first: very hard (need to kill/or make opponent cancel hatchery with 2 drone sunken rush) vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to kill four drones to even things out) vs 12 hatch: free win if you know what you are doing vs twin hatch: easy
9 over-pool
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs gas first: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to go lair ASAP) vs 12 hatch: depends vs twin hatch: hard
2) Gas first
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: free win if you know what you are doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard vs 12 hatch: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs twin hatch: hard
3) 12 pool hatch:
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: easy vs gas first: easy vs 12 hatch: hard (need to pump 4 drones and stop opponents attack with sim-city/sunken colony) vs twin hatch: depends
4) 12 hatch
vs 9 pool speed: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: free win if you know what you are doing (make lots of zerglings) vs 12 pool hatch: easy vs twin hatch: easy
5) Twin hatch
vs 9 pool speed: very hard vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: easy vs 12 pool hatch: depends vs 12 hatch: hard
6) Others
5 pool: Loses to anything other than hatch first builds
On September 25 2017 22:46 Letmelose wrote: Zerg-versus-zerg builds as explained by a post on YGOSU:
1) 9 pool speed
vs 9 over-pool: hard vs gas first: very hard (need to kill/or make opponent cancel hatchery with 2 drone sunken rush) vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to kill four drones to even things out) vs 12 hatch: free win if you know what you are doing vs twin hatch: easy
9 over-pool
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs gas first: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to go lair ASAP) vs 12 hatch: depends vs twin hatch: hard
2) Gas first
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: free win if you know what you are doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard vs 12 hatch: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs twin hatch: hard
3) 12 pool hatch:
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: easy vs gas first: easy vs 12 hatch: hard (need to pump 4 drones and stop opponents attack with sim-city/sunken colony) vs twin hatch: depends
4) 12 hatch
vs 9 pool speed: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: free win if you know what you are doing (make lots of zerglings) vs 12 pool hatch: easy vs twin hatch: easy
5) Twin hatch
vs 9 pool speed: very hard vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: easy vs 12 pool hatch: depends vs 12 hatch: hard
6) Others
5 pool: Loses to anything other than hatch first builds
interesting, this would be easier to understand if presented in a matrix/table format instead of list
Not really,if you are mechanically better then your opponent, no matter what build you use, more then likely you will win. placing it into a table can cause it to seem like the rock paper scissors matchup, and give off a false impression that a certain build will win vs another, when many more factors should be considered. For example the map you play itself, the rush distance, whether there is a ramp that leads into your main, or just a small opening or even a reverse ramp.
On September 25 2017 22:46 Letmelose wrote: Zerg-versus-zerg builds as explained by a post on YGOSU:
1) 9 pool speed
vs 9 over-pool: hard vs gas first: very hard (need to kill/or make opponent cancel hatchery with 2 drone sunken rush) vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to kill four drones to even things out) vs 12 hatch: free win if you know what you are doing vs twin hatch: easy
9 over-pool
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs gas first: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard (need to go lair ASAP) vs 12 hatch: depends vs twin hatch: hard
2) Gas first
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: free win if you know what you are doing vs 12 pool hatch: hard vs 12 hatch: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs twin hatch: hard
3) 12 pool hatch:
vs 9 pool speed: easy vs over-pool: easy vs gas first: easy vs 12 hatch: hard (need to pump 4 drones and stop opponents attack with sim-city/sunken colony) vs twin hatch: depends
4) 12 hatch
vs 9 pool speed: automatic defeat if opponent knows what he is doing vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: free win if you know what you are doing (make lots of zerglings) vs 12 pool hatch: easy vs twin hatch: easy
5) Twin hatch
vs 9 pool speed: very hard vs over-pool: depends vs gas first: easy vs 12 pool hatch: depends vs 12 hatch: hard
6) Others
5 pool: Loses to anything other than hatch first builds
There's not really a go-to ZvP right now, the most used are: 3 hatch spire->5/6 hatch (hydra/muta/lurker ... most common is hydra), 4/5 hatch no gas (maybe with 3 hatch speed opening) and 3 hatch hydra (can be all-in or not). But also variations depending on protoss builds etc.
For Protoss here ks what I d consider standard (i m not really good though so dont treat this as sacred truth): PvP it s kinda map dependent. No ramp: 2gate zealot is good and so is 3 gate goon. With ramp though either one gate core into dt or 1 gate core robo more gates (depending whether you go obs goon or reaver goon). 2 gates goon opening are possible too and you can put pressure while expanding but you may straight up die to dt.
PvT: 1 gate expand can be considered standard. 2 gate pressure possible too. (check the forum there was a wellmade guide about 1 gate expand recently)
PvZ: FFE (except nostalgia) then one corsair (scout) into storms/speedlots (or more corsair if you suspect/scout mutas)
On September 26 2017 01:07 SartPls wrote: The lack of protoss replies is worrying :thinking:
But no for real, since we got a few Zerg players here apparently, what's the go-to think to do vs P atm?
3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra?
3 Hatch Hydra? 6 Hatch Hydra? All the hydras... everywhere?
5 pool
he isn't wrong though. all agressive builds like that are about the bo3 bo5 and having a strong 5p is very important. as well as teaching you to value every ling you have.
you really have 3 different styles of play. Hero's style with 3h hydra pressure into 6 hatch Hydra Larva's 3h spire 6 h Hydra Effort's 4h before gas (and 4h before pool kinda sorta)
3h spire into 5h Hydra is a bit outdated now that the protoss's have been watching Bisu with the 1 gate expand and have become very comfortable with single zealot pressure and placing them in awkward positions
On September 26 2017 04:07 art_of_turtle wrote: he isn't wrong though. all agressive builds like that are about the bo3 bo5 and having a strong 5p is very important. as well as teaching you to value every ling you have.
you really have 3 different styles of play. Hero's style with 3h hydra pressure into 6 hatch Hydra Larva's 3h spire 6 h Hydra Effort's 4h before gas (and 4h before pool kinda sorta) https://youtu.be/DmeOl0bdkEQ?t=19m20s
3h spire into 5h Hydra is a bit outdated now that the protoss's have been watching Bisu with the 1 gate expand and have become very comfortable with single zealot pressure and placing them in awkward positions
I didn't wanna say 5 pool isn't a viable build. But it isn't a "standard approach" to ZvP, no? Like you said, it's more suited for Best of X series. Thanks for posting the video on 4 hatch before gas btw, it's a build that I've very rarely encountered on ladder yet, so nothing I was really familiar with.
Another question, hope you don't mind: Would you say 3 base spire into 6 hatch hydra is so vastly different to the 5 hatch hydra version that it can really be considered it's own build order? Or is it just a reaction to the common Neo Bisu Build? I always considered it just a slightly more commiting version of the same thing. Also if it "counters" the Neo Bisu Build, has there already been a valid response from Protoss players to it?
On September 26 2017 04:07 art_of_turtle wrote: he isn't wrong though. all agressive builds like that are about the bo3 bo5 and having a strong 5p is very important. as well as teaching you to value every ling you have.
you really have 3 different styles of play. Hero's style with 3h hydra pressure into 6 hatch Hydra Larva's 3h spire 6 h Hydra Effort's 4h before gas (and 4h before pool kinda sorta) https://youtu.be/DmeOl0bdkEQ?t=19m20s
3h spire into 5h Hydra is a bit outdated now that the protoss's have been watching Bisu with the 1 gate expand and have become very comfortable with single zealot pressure and placing them in awkward positions
I didn't wanna say 5 pool isn't a viable build. But it isn't a "standard approach" to ZvP, no? Like you said, it's more suited for Best of X series. Thanks for posting the video on 4 hatch before gas btw, it's a build that I've very rarely encountered on ladder yet, so nothing I was really familiar with.
Another question, hope you don't mind: Would you say 3 base spire into 6 hatch hydra is so vastly different to the 5 hatch hydra version that it can really be considered it's own build order? Or is it just a reaction to the common Neo Bisu Build? I always considered it just a slightly more commiting version of the same thing. Also if it "counters" the Neo Bisu Build, has there already been a valid response from Protoss players to it?
Thanks in advance for the reply!
3h spire into 5h hydra is a way to transition into take a faster 4th base, while 3h spire into 6h hydra is a way to put pressure on the toss and making it difficult for him to take a 3rd. 6h Hydra focuses more on hydras while 5h Hydra focuses on being defensive and getting lurkers a bit sooner. when you hit late game won't matter which one you chose cause at that point its about taking bases and trying to deny the other one bases.