ZvT, Tesagi, and Flash - Page 2
Forum Index > BW General |
Shinokuki
United States820 Posts
| ||
yOngKIN
Korea (North)656 Posts
I guess to answer this, we must look at the JvF rivalry and how Flash plays against the best zerg play, which Jaedong offers. Jaedong plays zerg with maximum brutality and aggression, but he plays it within the meta and limits of the game. He plays the timing correctly, he does muta harass on schedule, and his hive tech ZvT is one you would imagine a high level player would play the race, with brute force of constant aggression that hits all the timings and sequences of the match up right. Effort, on the other hand, plays it with awkward offbeat aggression. Watching him play zerg aggressively is like watching a left-handed person draw. It looks weird but the result is beautiful. He will never summon his ling lurkers together and attack the incoming bio tank ball under swarm. Instead, he will be hiding in the shadows, doing small raids or drops, and only then deal with the main army. I have even seen plenty of Effort vs. Flash where Effort streams and rallies his lings without gathering them before they reach the attack point, something that you never do as a zerg. So while Flash has mastered the zerg timings and tactics, against Effort, he cannot rely on this knowledge and instinct because Effort is always planning something sneaky. If they were weapons, Jaedong would be high-grade titanium baseball bat, while Effort is a $10 junior baseball bat at Walmart wrapped in rusty barbed with with a grenade at the tip. Something like that | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
Anyways, I can't speak for Protoss, but I know that "optimal" Zerg play revolves around two basic principles: 1) Being able to snap between unit and drone production perfectly with no delay in decision making 2) Controlling micro-intensive units better (particularly lings) Assuming everything else is fairly solid for a Zerg player, these two principles really propel them forward. Being able to get maximum value out of micro-intensive units like lings or mutas is what allows Zerg to drone like crazy and trade efficiently against armies that are typically much stronger. In a "perfect" scenario, lings would be able to split individually, perform perfect surrounds, and be kept at a perfect interval from enemy units at all time to scout and avoid damage. The second idea, larva management, is something that no one has yet perfected. A lot of droning and unit production for the first 6-8 minutes has been mapped out over time, but it's still more or less a best guess based on the information provided, and often that critical thinking takes a little bit of time (even if it SEEMS instantaneous to us). Being able to determine when to drone without any hesitation would easily spike Zerg to the top of the races. We would see something like a 6+ increase in drones in the early game, especially if coupled with perfected micro like described above, which would result in a much more powerful mid and late game. These principles hold up in both ZvT and ZvP where Zerg typically has a bit of difficulty in the mid game securing a 4th base against the power spikes of the other races. | ||
skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
postmodernism has reached starcraft | ||
XERX
85 Posts
| ||
PorkSoda
170 Posts
On October 16 2017 15:29 XERX wrote: FlaSh is the only player that can consistently rape top players. Its not a Terran problem its a Flash problem. Exactly. FlaSh, not Terran, is tesagi. There are no top professionals that lament not being able to beat Terran. They lament not being able to beat FlaSh (and Last). People only want to focus on Terran strengths when discussing them, never their weakness or the strengths of the other races. | ||
traxamillion
104 Posts
| ||
hOhO.Squadron
Sweden1 Post
In the recent games Effort has been winning, hes done so by crippling and disturbing flash earlier in the game. Earlier than when flash can set set it up to a divided map scenario al a macro game. Effort is simply not playing the game right into Flash's hands like many other zergs that think they can out macro Flash | ||
mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
| ||
iopq
United States716 Posts
On October 17 2017 03:33 traxamillion wrote: If AI played the game optimally with 10,000 apm zerg would be the best race by far and never lose a game. I disagree, because 10,000 apm Terran can drop every base at the same time and perfectly dance dropship to avoid scourge and target them with marines. Then he'd perfectly multitask 3 drops at the same time and kill everything because Zerg can't kill marines behind minerals when you can pop each individual marine into the dropship and pop it out the other side. Remember, scourge are useless because the AI can perfectly target them down. Lurkers are useless because you can actually avoid the spines perfectly. In fact, 3 lurkers at the top of the ramp won't stop marines because they can dodge spines without taking any damage. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On October 17 2017 07:53 iopq wrote: I disagree, because 10,000 apm Terran can drop every base at the same time and perfectly dance dropship to avoid scourge and target them with marines. Then he'd perfectly multitask 3 drops at the same time and kill everything because Zerg can't kill marines behind minerals when you can pop each individual marine into the dropship and pop it out the other side. Remember, scourge are useless because the AI can perfectly target them down. Lurkers are useless because you can actually avoid the spines perfectly. In fact, 3 lurkers at the top of the ramp won't stop marines because they can dodge spines without taking any damage. or the AI 4 pools every game and perfectly micro every zergling to minimize damage and take out the terran before we even get to that stage | ||
Djabanete
United States2783 Posts
On October 15 2017 07:03 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote: Anyway, even in Kespa era, there was something about Effort vs. Flash that makes it more competitive vs. the traditional rivalry of Flash vs. Jaedong. In FvJ, Jaedong could very well secure the third and ball up to a hive advantage, but you always got the feeling that Flash could still pull out a win. Jaedong is conservative when he needs to attack, and tends to go aggressive with risky aggression even if Flash has the clear defensive or army advantage. What? It didn't look like that to me at all. I won't deny that Flash won more than his share of Bo5s against Jaedong, but that was largely because of mind games and unique strategies rather than because he could just cruise to victory in the late game. I remember him mixing it up with valkonic, mech-to-bio switches, and all-in sunken busts in the various Bo5s they played during KeSPA. I also remember some resounding victories by Jaedong once the game got to defiler tech. Jaedong won on Odd-Eye (power outage MSL), on Tau Cross (WCG), on Rush Hour (proleague)... To me it always seemed that each player somewhat feared the other in the late-game battle of standard play, with Flash possibly fearing Jaedong more, and each tried to mind-game the other to get an easier win (with economic "cheese" like 14CC or regular cheese like BBS or 5 pool). Some of their Bo5s were actually pretty disappointing to watch, with all of the weird mind games going on. Nowadays, I think it's much more true to say that Flash can cruise to victory in the late game. It wasn't true back then. Edit: Conversely, in the OSL where Effort beat Flash, Effort won with weird stuff in games 3--5, but Flash won with the "cruise to victory in the late game" approach in games 1 and 2. In game 2 of that series in particular, Effort looked like he had zero chance against Flash's late game. (I watched this series live though, in California, so it went from like 3:30am to 5:30am... so I could be misremembering something since I was so sleepy!) | ||
| ||