Hello, I'm and old player,but not a known player. - Page 2
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Empyrean
16926 Posts
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Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
Outscar: You're improving brother. Not wanna be rude but your very first few maps were shit, unplayable and made in 5 minutes. I think the best way to improve, balance your map is surf through BWMN database, compare and read comments. Good luck! Huh.... thanks I guess?? , Did you check out the newer versions of the 8 player maps I've made so far.. I think you'll like them, but dunno that's me talking, I did put a lot of effort in them, right now I'm improving this map and making it better because, well I want to make it better, quite simple nothing more nothing less. Lorch: Also try to use the quote feature to respond to people. Sentences separated by that weird ..... are really hard to read. Thank you for reminding me that those things do exist... as for never seen a 1v1, I've seen a lot of them, but well I never took into consideration those things: 1.- First time I'm seriously trying to make a 1v1 map, because I'm not much of a 1v1 map maker, there are only 2 maps I made that are 1v1 and those are only 64*64 size each one... if you guys wish you can check them out, here are two pictures of them. Those 3 bugged banners that appear are supposed to be 3 supply depots each, I'm still asking myself why did those 3 supply appear as 3 banners, that was really really weird. anyways. Little Desert AND Ring Civilization 2.- I'm more of a NHFFA player and map maker, meaning 256*256 maps or some map that has one of those sizes... but I mostly do 256*256 maps, which I really like making them, becase : a.-) You can make them balanced or imbalanced any way you wish, although there are some stubborn guys which want to make them balanced like a 1v1 map, which will work I won't deny it, but it is hard to apply, because of the 8 player variation. b.-)Rules vary in a NHFFA map, which consist of 3 basics laws which are: b.1.-)There can only be 1 winner in a NHFFA GAME. b.2.-)There can be alliances to take down the frigging pro player by multiple noob players (meaning: alliances between 3 noobs vs 1 pro //// 7 noobs vs 1 pro) it can go any way in the game, so a rule of balancing the map doesn't play out very well, and as the only rule is 1 winner, well expect a BackStab any moment of the game. b.3.-) If a player says OBS make sure to leave only 1 building alive so the player can obs and leave the player alone. Here is an example and my first NHFFA map I made some time ago, and it took me like 5 months to get it to the state it is now... 3.- I quite enjoy map making and wish to make a map that everyone likes, that's it. Anyways AS I was saying and got sidetracked, I'm redesigning the map again and taking into consideration the tips and comments you guys have pointed out. | ||
niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas? | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
niteReloaded: Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map. Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas? I think it is possible if the high ground is the base on top and the low ground is the base on bottom... but dunno... still modifying the map so both bases are low ground, gotta run some tests about the idea.. or maybe both bases can be in the middle left and middle right and 1 can be high ground or low ground, because then you have 2 bases which can have same issues... kinda not entirely sure. New post: So I don't make a double post... I think I got around it... but still I'll show a pic of what I thought... you guys be the judges... | ||
Jealous
9972 Posts
Let's also tack on the absurd walking distance from main mineral to natural minerals, I think no one's mentioned that yet. I still firmly believe that if you don't understand competitive play at even the lowest level, you can't make maps that will be playable in 1v1. | ||
abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
Again - don't bother. NHFFA maps don't need to be balanced. 1x1's do. You can't make a balanced 1x1 map without equal mains or with any kind of silly quirks to main or nat. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about, | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
Jealous: What about the fact that even if you change both bases to being high or low ground, that you still have no way of safely walling your natural because of the backdoor entrance which is unobstructed? Are you going to continue ignoring that as well? Let's also tack on the absurd walking distance from main mineral to natural minerals, I think no one's mentioned that yet. I still firmly believe that if you don't understand competitive play at even the lowest level, you can't make maps that will be playable in 1v1. You... should really really read the comments before answering you know... I've already answered all the question you have made in the posts I did before... abuse: The last pic is basically Arcadia which nobody likes to play because imbalance, and you added more imbalance on top by having one main be on high ground. Again - don't bother. NHFFA maps don't need to be balanced. 1x1's do. You can't make a balanced 1x1 map without equal mains or with any kind of silly quirks to main or nat. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about, Yeah that's true NHFFA maps don't need much balance and I did point that out, so I'm not arguing against that a 1v1 does really need balance, so I'm not against it.. sheesh have you guys not read what I've posted??? Arcadia??? I haven't seen that map to be honest, I just kinda thought of it.. if it is there well, there it is I guess, anyways I was just answering the question made if it is possible to make a high ground low ground game with a picture nothing more,so.....I'll continue remaking the map... | ||
shall_burn
252 Posts
Say, the high-ground player has an advantage defending. Then give the low-ground player one more mineral patch per base. Or even 1-2 more bases in his part of the map. Or different pathing routes. So that one has the defending terrain advantage, but less resources. | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
shall_burn: What if this map with 1 main hg and the other lg, what if you make it a-symmetrical? Say, the high-ground player has an advantage defending. Then give the low-ground player one more mineral patch per base. Or even 1-2 more bases in his part of the map. Or different pathing routes. So that one has the defending terrain advantage, but less resources. well dunno, as I said I'm still trying with a normal 1v1 map, after I finish that I think I'll try the ideas in another new map. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
I don't want to advise you how to make the map balanced because I don't think that's what you're going for. But I will say in terms of keeping maps interesting, you need open areas as well as narrow areas, and I think you could simplify the middle even further, removing either all three of the centre walls, or just the top and bottom walls in the centre, just to open it up a tiny bit. Keep making maps especially if you have friends to play them with. It's a lot of fun. On January 05 2018 00:54 niteReloaded wrote: Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map. Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas? There have been cool pro maps that were a combination of several different maps, each with quite different start locations. Maybe not balanced, but definitely playable. For pros it's hard because you have many different combinations of start locations to prepare for, but they did make interesting games for viewers who never knew what to expect. This may be a foreign mindset in modern BW, but back in the day there were lots of people who liked the idea of being able to play any map and improvise a strategy on the spot. People who did not really mind that much that maps could be unfair. OP says he did FFA, and FFA is always unfair lol, someone always gets stuck between two people. It's something we used to call "fun." It was always hard to suggest these maps to people who grinded 1v1 though. I would definitely say you could figure out ways to compensate varying positions, as someone suggested with terrain advantages vs resource advantages. It's not like the races in StarCraft are symmetrical, that's kind of why we liked it better than WarCraft II. | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
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Jealous
9972 Posts
On January 06 2018 06:10 Rickv100491 wrote: even Fighting spirit has a kinda backdoor entrance just.. Not even close to being comparable and really highlights how little you understand about maps and gameplay. FS has an entrance to its 3rd, but the natural is safely wallable, which your map is not. In other words, if I make a wall, it doesn't matter whether they come from my 3rd or from the main bridge on FS, because my wall defends against both. However, your map doesn't have that. Which is the most major issue, as this negates all modern styles of play. | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
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Jealous
9972 Posts
On January 06 2018 10:21 Rickv100491 wrote: I dunno why mix my map in the dialogue... I was talking about fs.... anyways yes fighting spirit is balanced... meh... won't deny it, and well I'm not trying to make a copy/paste from fighting spirit, there's plenty enough of those on bwmn already.. like 6 versions... i think... or was it 4...can't remember, anyways ... It's because you said, "if there is room for a backdoor entrance, I will use it. I want to make my map balanced. Even Fighting Spirit has a backdoor entrance." <- This is a summary, but is this not exactly what you just said???? | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
On January 06 2018 02:06 Chef wrote: I love the asymmetry of your map. Makes me nostalgic. I don't really care that it's imba, you made something interesting. These kinds of maps are a lot of fun especially at chobo level. Just neat maps that do something different. I don't want to advise you how to make the map balanced because I don't think that's what you're going for. But I will say in terms of keeping maps interesting, you need open areas as well as narrow areas, and I think you could simplify the middle even further, removing either all three of the centre walls, or just the top and bottom walls in the centre, just to open it up a tiny bit. Keep making maps especially if you have friends to play them with. It's a lot of fun. There have been cool pro maps that were a combination of several different maps, each with quite different start locations. Maybe not balanced, but definitely playable. For pros it's hard because you have many different combinations of start locations to prepare for, but they did make interesting games for viewers who never knew what to expect. This may be a foreign mindset in modern BW, but back in the day there were lots of people who liked the idea of being able to play any map and improvise a strategy on the spot. People who did not really mind that much that maps could be unfair. OP says he did FFA, and FFA is always unfair lol, someone always gets stuck between two people. It's something we used to call "fun." It was always hard to suggest these maps to people who grinded 1v1 though. I would definitely say you could figure out ways to compensate varying positions, as someone suggested with terrain advantages vs resource advantages. It's not like the races in StarCraft are symmetrical, that's kind of why we liked it better than WarCraft II. <3 | ||
Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
Modifications done: -Remade basically the map. -Made middle wide open so there's enough room for fighting. -Naturals and Main are closer making the worker transfer faster, dunno if fast enough. -Made ramps, hopefully they aren't too ugly or blocky and ppl like them. -Expansions at 3 and 9 o'clock gas works perfectly, tested and functional. That's it, give your judgement, if need to fix or improve or re-arrange things, I'll do it. | ||
Jealous
9972 Posts
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abuse
Latvia1923 Posts
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Rickv100491
Ecuador29 Posts
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