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I'm a player... that played the game until I stopped 10 years ago, I just came back, like 1 year ago... and I've been mostly making maps, I'm more of a NHFFA player, but I digress I've been working on some 1v1 maps, which to be honest I'm not a good map maker for it, yes I've read a lot of things about map making, like resource gathering pathing and the gas issue, thing is.. well I would like to fix the map any way I see it possible, at least this one I have here.
Here you can see the map: www.panschk.de
I accept comments and suggestions on it, and I apologize, if the post is in the wrong place beforehand.
heheeh, hopefully you guys like the new version? anything to improve on it, please do tell me...
Modifications done:
-Remade basically the map. -Made middle wide open so there's enough room for fighting. -Naturals and Main are closer making the worker transfer faster, dunno if fast enough. -Made ramps, hopefully they aren't too ugly or blocky and ppl like them. -Expansions at 3 and 9 o'clock gas works perfectly, tested and functional.
That's it, give your judgement.
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New Modifications done (8/01/2018):
-Naturals Entrances fixed. -Middle Wide open for better mobility. -expansions entrance re arranged so they are in center. of each expansion. -Height difference taken into account. -Pathing of units taken into account. -Middle ramps entrances wide and shorter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ New Modifications done (11/01/2018):
-Mineral re-arrangement in third expansion making the wall in closer to the central building -Expansions in center re-arrangement making a "second" third entrance so there's a "kinda" backdoor for entrance or exit to middle. -Made only one "BIG AS IN REALLY BIG!" middle ramp for middle fight.. still thinking if maybe I should add some resources there... or just leave it wide open. -Re-arranged mains minerals so the main base doesn't look too cramped... although mains are still somehow little.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Modifications done (21/01/2018):
-Taken into account pathing of units. -Remade High ground to ice ramp in 4 0'clock expansion. -Remade expansions at 3 // 9 o'clock. -Remade Middle, making it less straight and more Shuriken like.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Modifications done (01/02/2018): -Open middle. -added 2 more expansions. -Reposition of minerals in mains and nats, same with gas, considering mining rates. -Repostion of Resources in expansions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Modifications done (06/02/20018): -V 0.16 -Reorganized mineral lines taking into account pathing of workers, hopefully optimizing mineral gathering rate in each base, tested each and every mining base. -Reorganized geysers, hopefully optimizing gas gathering rate in each base, tested each geyser in each expansion.
I'd appreciate if any of you guys could tell me, how or where I can see the mining rates of each base, although I did watch every single one, and each time the delivery takes less than a second.
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How come the lower left base is on high ground, but the upper right is not? This will give the lower right base a huge advantage. Also the symmetry is quite off, especially in how the minerals are placed in certain parts of the map.
Also the main base looks huge, and how the natural expansion area looks is... I don't think it will work.
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This map looks off a lot. Both starter points should start the same for balance. Plus the naturals looks a lot different for both players. Need to be more even for both players.
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OK, So i need to reduce the main bases some, adjust the minerals? So I only put them in the right side or the left side right?... what's the problem with the mains having that mineral placement they have right now? been honest I think it has the same mining rate, but if it is a problem I will adjust it... Symmetry, the tileset is assymetrical, so... symmetry I don't think... althought the expansions I do need to readjust them I'm still doing that, the map is still far from been balanced, the high ground and low ground main bases... huge advantage... been honest I'm confused in that part... so I need to make them both lower ground or high ground? I'll adjust both to be lower ground to make it more even... should I reduce the space in the naturals and mains for both players??...
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High ground gives a miss chance (chance enemies won't hit when they shoot) and blocks vision, which lowground doesn't. Lowground 'ramp' can be completely blocked-off by placing one building, which can't be done on a ramp.
The naturals are basically 2-in-1, and are so wide-open, they couldn't be easily secured Gas geyser placement has a huge impact on mining rates ... someone link a guide (I can't find it), the optimal (i.e. FAIR) placement for gas geyser is either directly above or directly below the town hall.
The natrual's mineral layouts are completely unfair. As a Terran, I would spawn in the bottom, and could place a CC at the bottom of the ramp, and mine, which couldn't be done at the top. The two bases are so close, they're effectively 1 base. Also, because the resources are in-the-way (as opposed to being to-the-side) they'll make a mess for pathing anytime you want to exit your base.
The reason we have 'standards' isn't because we hate fun and variation. It's because those are 'fair', and deviating wildly in the fundamentals (defensiveness of expansions, closeness of expansions, resource layout, amount of buildable space available in-base, not making one main-base tons easier to defend than the other) destabilizes the careful balance of BW.
It reduces the game from 'how good you play' to 'how well you've memorized how-to-play on that one particular map'.
There are many good guides here: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/newsscript/viewarticles.php
And more out there, sorry, I spent 20min looking and couldn't find them, but that's up to you
Enjoy!
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OK the pathing for units in Natural I'll admit I had problem with it... and the natural 2-1 well I do want to apply it.. 2 naturals in 1 natural... just the minerals are less than a normal natural which generally are 6-7-8 minerals here you have 5 minerals per natural, I'd even reduce it to 4 each natural but still wondering about it... gas placement is generally on the left or the top, that's the standard position, but that's in main bases, as for Naturals and/or expansions, there shouldn't be a problem with gas placement with those, that's what I've been told so far.... that's why I'm kinda confused... expansions should or shouldn't always be standard? top//left side of the base....because I've done NHFFA maps that follow that standard...but those are highly different from a standard 1v1 2v2 map..
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Just start by finding a way to draw a symmetrical line through the middle. If you can't do that then it is not a good 1v1 map... Personally, 1 base high ground vs. 1 low could in some extreme complex way become balanced but that would be insanely complicated to achieve. I have never seen a (even in the most contraversial, vague terms) "balanced" map ever use this feature... 1v1 maps must be balanced from 0:00, if one player (or race) immediately has an advantage you can consider the map to be a fail... (yes 4 player maps can give better advantages at different points of the game, different MUs, etc.) but I don't think I've seen something as extreme as this for a while... If you don't take anything from this comment apart from one word; "Symmetry", I'll be happy . If you don't at first succeed then try try again ;O).
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Hello! I'm HansVoralberg, remember me? We played some FFAs on your gigantic 256 maps :D Glad to see you
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Main base is too big + pathing issues going through the natural when it is built up
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Rick, you already got told that this map is imbalanced in the Discord, why waste people's times on here?
You can't make a balanced map with two entrances unobstructed. Until you remove that, you can forget about every other change because it's a waste of time.
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16926 Posts
To echo what everyone else has been saying, playing on this map isn't about skill so much as it is about spawning at the bottom position.
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I like that you used the frozen water terrain. That's my positive comment about this map.
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On January 04 2018 19:33 ninazerg wrote: I like that you used the frozen water terrain. That's my positive comment about this map. You are aware that it is actually called Solid State Dihydrogen Monoxide Terrain, right?
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Jealous... the way you write.. I'll assume you are choboswaggins... so I'll say it... I came here because I want to make the map balanced... so let me get the comments and suggestions of other players out there too..if you aren't chobo well sorry for confusing you.....anyways I'm taking into consideration every comment here and suggestion,anyways... Hi HansVoral, glad to see you too, I do remember you.. Iplay.nettles yeah I did get that.. I'm fixing that right away.. Mythical, yes I've seen low to basically no maps use the concept of 1 hig base vs 1 ground base... I'll try hard to make it work really... thanks nina I like it too...still working on the map a lot..Besides I'm doing this more a challenge to myself too I guess...
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Honestly you should give up on the idea of making a balanced hg base vs lg base. It's not going to work, and it will never be balanced. Also, 2 ramps from separate sides on the natural exp will also guarantee that nobody ever plays the map I'm afraid, as it makes the map impossible to win in certain matchups. (PvZ for example)
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I like how every comment here clearly states that you cannot make a 1v1 map with high ground main vs low ground main. While every response from the map creator answers any other issues (like pathing) except this very main one. Its almost like the map creator deliberately ignores the main issue to troll the fuck out of TLnetters.
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Well I'm not ignoring it.. I did say in a comment up, that if it is needed, I'll make them both low ground or high ground, so I don't think it is necessary to point something out that was already answered, although 1 player did say it was kinda possible... but still considering it... because well.. dunno if it is possible, and as I stated if necessary both will be low ground or high ground... I'm not trolling anyone here...
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The rest of the map isn't exactly well executed either. What is your intention with the natural expansion? It breaks the game by itself, even without the high vs. low ground.
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Like 5 different people have told that it is indeed necessary to make them both high or both low ground. Same goes for the natural. It was even explained to you in detail how it is broken for Terran. Watching a game on a map with a high ground main, one with a low ground main and one with an even main would have taught you that. You should really get familiar with 1v1 if you wanna make a map for it. Some of your designs make it quiet apparent that you never watched a single game of competitive Brood War.
Also try to use the quote feature to respond to people. Sentences separated by that weird ..... are really hard to read.
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You're improving brother. Not wanna be rude but your very first few maps were shit, unplayable and made in 5 minutes. I think the best way to improve, balance your map is surf through BWMN database, compare and read comments. Good luck!
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16926 Posts
Guys I think he gets the high ground vs. low ground issue >_>
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Outscar: You're improving brother. Not wanna be rude but your very first few maps were shit, unplayable and made in 5 minutes. I think the best way to improve, balance your map is surf through BWMN database, compare and read comments. Good luck!
Huh.... thanks I guess?? , Did you check out the newer versions of the 8 player maps I've made so far.. I think you'll like them, but dunno that's me talking, I did put a lot of effort in them, right now I'm improving this map and making it better because, well I want to make it better, quite simple nothing more nothing less.
Lorch: Also try to use the quote feature to respond to people. Sentences separated by that weird ..... are really hard to read.
Thank you for reminding me that those things do exist... as for never seen a 1v1, I've seen a lot of them, but well I never took into consideration those things: 1.- First time I'm seriously trying to make a 1v1 map, because I'm not much of a 1v1 map maker, there are only 2 maps I made that are 1v1 and those are only 64*64 size each one... if you guys wish you can check them out, here are two pictures of them. Those 3 bugged banners that appear are supposed to be 3 supply depots each, I'm still asking myself why did those 3 supply appear as 3 banners, that was really really weird. anyways.
Little Desert
AND
Ring Civilization
2.- I'm more of a NHFFA player and map maker, meaning 256*256 maps or some map that has one of those sizes... but I mostly do 256*256 maps, which I really like making them, becase : a.-) You can make them balanced or imbalanced any way you wish, although there are some stubborn guys which want to make them balanced like a 1v1 map, which will work I won't deny it, but it is hard to apply, because of the 8 player variation. b.-)Rules vary in a NHFFA map, which consist of 3 basics laws which are: b.1.-)There can only be 1 winner in a NHFFA GAME. b.2.-)There can be alliances to take down the frigging pro player by multiple noob players (meaning: alliances between 3 noobs vs 1 pro //// 7 noobs vs 1 pro) it can go any way in the game, so a rule of balancing the map doesn't play out very well, and as the only rule is 1 winner, well expect a BackStab any moment of the game. b.3.-) If a player says OBS make sure to leave only 1 building alive so the player can obs and leave the player alone.
Here is an example and my first NHFFA map I made some time ago, and it took me like 5 months to get it to the state it is now...
3.- I quite enjoy map making and wish to make a map that everyone likes, that's it.
Anyways AS I was saying and got sidetracked, I'm redesigning the map again and taking into consideration the tips and comments you guys have pointed out.
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Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map.
Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas?
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niteReloaded: Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map.
Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas?
I think it is possible if the high ground is the base on top and the low ground is the base on bottom... but dunno... still modifying the map so both bases are low ground, gotta run some tests about the idea.. or maybe both bases can be in the middle left and middle right and 1 can be high ground or low ground, because then you have 2 bases which can have same issues... kinda not entirely sure.
New post: So I don't make a double post... I think I got around it... but still I'll show a pic of what I thought... you guys be the judges...
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What about the fact that even if you change both bases to being high or low ground, that you still have no way of safely walling your natural because of the backdoor entrance which is unobstructed? Are you going to continue ignoring that as well?
Let's also tack on the absurd walking distance from main mineral to natural minerals, I think no one's mentioned that yet.
I still firmly believe that if you don't understand competitive play at even the lowest level, you can't make maps that will be playable in 1v1.
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The last pic is basically Arcadia which nobody likes to play because imbalance, and you added more imbalance on top by having one main be on high ground. Again - don't bother. NHFFA maps don't need to be balanced. 1x1's do. You can't make a balanced 1x1 map without equal mains or with any kind of silly quirks to main or nat. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about,
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Jealous: What about the fact that even if you change both bases to being high or low ground, that you still have no way of safely walling your natural because of the backdoor entrance which is unobstructed? Are you going to continue ignoring that as well?
Let's also tack on the absurd walking distance from main mineral to natural minerals, I think no one's mentioned that yet.
I still firmly believe that if you don't understand competitive play at even the lowest level, you can't make maps that will be playable in 1v1.
You... should really really read the comments before answering you know... I've already answered all the question you have made in the posts I did before...
abuse: The last pic is basically Arcadia which nobody likes to play because imbalance, and you added more imbalance on top by having one main be on high ground. Again - don't bother. NHFFA maps don't need to be balanced. 1x1's do. You can't make a balanced 1x1 map without equal mains or with any kind of silly quirks to main or nat. Anyone who says otherwise has no idea what they are talking about,
Yeah that's true NHFFA maps don't need much balance and I did point that out, so I'm not arguing against that a 1v1 does really need balance, so I'm not against it.. sheesh have you guys not read what I've posted??? Arcadia??? I haven't seen that map to be honest, I just kinda thought of it.. if it is there well, there it is I guess, anyways I was just answering the question made if it is possible to make a high ground low ground game with a picture nothing more,so.....I'll continue remaking the map...
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What if this map with 1 main hg and the other lg, what if you make it a-symmetrical? Say, the high-ground player has an advantage defending. Then give the low-ground player one more mineral patch per base. Or even 1-2 more bases in his part of the map. Or different pathing routes. So that one has the defending terrain advantage, but less resources.
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shall_burn: What if this map with 1 main hg and the other lg, what if you make it a-symmetrical? Say, the high-ground player has an advantage defending. Then give the low-ground player one more mineral patch per base. Or even 1-2 more bases in his part of the map. Or different pathing routes. So that one has the defending terrain advantage, but less resources. well dunno, as I said I'm still trying with a normal 1v1 map, after I finish that I think I'll try the ideas in another new map.
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I love the asymmetry of your map. Makes me nostalgic. I don't really care that it's imba, you made something interesting. These kinds of maps are a lot of fun especially at chobo level. Just neat maps that do something different.
I don't want to advise you how to make the map balanced because I don't think that's what you're going for. But I will say in terms of keeping maps interesting, you need open areas as well as narrow areas, and I think you could simplify the middle even further, removing either all three of the centre walls, or just the top and bottom walls in the centre, just to open it up a tiny bit.
Keep making maps especially if you have friends to play them with. It's a lot of fun.
On January 05 2018 00:54 niteReloaded wrote:Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map. Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas? There have been cool pro maps that were a combination of several different maps, each with quite different start locations. Maybe not balanced, but definitely playable. For pros it's hard because you have many different combinations of start locations to prepare for, but they did make interesting games for viewers who never knew what to expect.
This may be a foreign mindset in modern BW, but back in the day there were lots of people who liked the idea of being able to play any map and improvise a strategy on the spot. People who did not really mind that much that maps could be unfair. OP says he did FFA, and FFA is always unfair lol, someone always gets stuck between two people. It's something we used to call "fun." It was always hard to suggest these maps to people who grinded 1v1 though. I would definitely say you could figure out ways to compensate varying positions, as someone suggested with terrain advantages vs resource advantages. It's not like the races in StarCraft are symmetrical, that's kind of why we liked it better than WarCraft II.
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I get what you mean, and thank you, but meh there will always be ppl that don't play the map, because it's broken or they don't feel safe when playing it... still though I'm balancing the map.. if! there's room for the backdoor entrance then I'll use it although even Fighting spirit has a kinda backdoor entrance just.. well it is in an expansion and not in a Natural and it's obviously far away from the natural entrance but anyways, it's all about balancing, specially in 1v1.
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On January 06 2018 06:10 Rickv100491 wrote: even Fighting spirit has a kinda backdoor entrance just..
Not even close to being comparable and really highlights how little you understand about maps and gameplay. FS has an entrance to its 3rd, but the natural is safely wallable, which your map is not. In other words, if I make a wall, it doesn't matter whether they come from my 3rd or from the main bridge on FS, because my wall defends against both. However, your map doesn't have that. Which is the most major issue, as this negates all modern styles of play.
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I dunno why mix my map in the dialogue... I was talking about fs.... anyways yes fighting spirit is balanced... meh... won't deny it, and well I'm not trying to make a copy/paste from fighting spirit, there's plenty enough of those on bwmn already.. like 6 versions... i think... or was it 4...can't remember, anyways
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On January 06 2018 10:21 Rickv100491 wrote: I dunno why mix my map in the dialogue... I was talking about fs.... anyways yes fighting spirit is balanced... meh... won't deny it, and well I'm not trying to make a copy/paste from fighting spirit, there's plenty enough of those on bwmn already.. like 6 versions... i think... or was it 4...can't remember, anyways
... It's because you said, "if there is room for a backdoor entrance, I will use it. I want to make my map balanced. Even Fighting Spirit has a backdoor entrance." <- This is a summary, but is this not exactly what you just said????
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New editions done in the map... please do tell me what you think of the new editions.
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On January 06 2018 02:06 Chef wrote:I love the asymmetry of your map. Makes me nostalgic. I don't really care that it's imba, you made something interesting. These kinds of maps are a lot of fun especially at chobo level. Just neat maps that do something different. I don't want to advise you how to make the map balanced because I don't think that's what you're going for. But I will say in terms of keeping maps interesting, you need open areas as well as narrow areas, and I think you could simplify the middle even further, removing either all three of the centre walls, or just the top and bottom walls in the centre, just to open it up a tiny bit. Keep making maps especially if you have friends to play them with. It's a lot of fun. Show nested quote +On January 05 2018 00:54 niteReloaded wrote:Okay, let's look at it this way: there are professional map makers out there, they all make symetrical maps. Will this map eventually get to that level? Maybe. Will it be fun? Hm, it will be just another map. Altho my first reaction was also "Wow, you cannot have one base low ground and the other high ground", I'm now thinking we may steer the thinking in the other direction: - If it was somehow possible to make a decently balanced map that does have this low ground-high ground difference - how could it be achieved? Is it possible to make it not-too-broken? Ideas? There have been cool pro maps that were a combination of several different maps, each with quite different start locations. Maybe not balanced, but definitely playable. For pros it's hard because you have many different combinations of start locations to prepare for, but they did make interesting games for viewers who never knew what to expect. This may be a foreign mindset in modern BW, but back in the day there were lots of people who liked the idea of being able to play any map and improvise a strategy on the spot. People who did not really mind that much that maps could be unfair. OP says he did FFA, and FFA is always unfair lol, someone always gets stuck between two people. It's something we used to call "fun." It was always hard to suggest these maps to people who grinded 1v1 though. I would definitely say you could figure out ways to compensate varying positions, as someone suggested with terrain advantages vs resource advantages. It's not like the races in StarCraft are symmetrical, that's kind of why we liked it better than WarCraft II. <3
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heheeh, hopefully you guys like the new version? anything to improve on it, please do tell me...
Modifications done:
-Remade basically the map. -Made middle wide open so there's enough room for fighting. -Naturals and Main are closer making the worker transfer faster, dunno if fast enough. -Made ramps, hopefully they aren't too ugly or blocky and ppl like them. -Expansions at 3 and 9 o'clock gas works perfectly, tested and functional.
That's it, give your judgement, if need to fix or improve or re-arrange things, I'll do it.
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This looks tons better. Good work.
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looks much better, though due to all bases having very narrow entrances, no real open space anywhere on the map to allow flanking and lack of space in main bases, this seems unwinnable for P in PvT.
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So.. I need to make the main bases a little bigger... and the natural entrances too, make them a little more open?
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the entire map needs to be more open. If every expansion only has a ramp or a narrow entrance + the center is also small and cluttered, then it won't work if balance is what you're looking for.
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Ok, So I take out the 4 high ground lines in the center so it is more open.. noted it, and the expansions... I dunno they have an entrance of two barracks each.. well except for the corner expansion ones... but they have a wide enough space in their bottom place... and the expansions besides each other are wide enough and have the entrance of two barracks each. the Naturals are the ones that aren't wide enough and making mains a little bigger.
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One thing I worry about is if Terran sets up Siege Tanks on the center high ground on the ramp outside of the natural, can the Tank reach the exit to the natural? This will be a death sentence to any Protoss if they can't even get their army out to the center of the map to even think about flanking a Terran force on a map that makes it difficult to flank already.
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There's nothing to worry about that as I showed
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MODIFICATIONS DONE:
-Naturals Entrances fixed. -Middle Wide open for better mobility. -expansions entrance re arranged so they are in center. of each expansion. -Height difference taken into account. -Pathing of units taken into account. -Middle ramps entrances wide and shorter.
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Played a test game with Rick, and the map is progressing nicely. I am interested in the next iteration.
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Have any of you guys tried the new version of the map, I'd really appreciate if you guys could tell me more in what I can better it, so far the modifications done are in the bwmn site, but haven't seen if you guys think is good or bad, or too bland, I was thinking of adding a forest in some parts that are just ice, to make it look less bland, but need impressions on it now, thank you
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