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TLADT24917 Posts
On April 22 2018 02:24 RAPiDCasting. wrote:While I don't doubt BigFan's passion for teamliquid and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong posts time after time just really hurts the browsing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first noregret + rapidcasting thread. BigFan was talking about a cast with RAPiD and NoRegreT (not exactly common, mostly in desperate situations) and then a quick look at the sheer difficulty of moving to a foreign country to live and work showed that RAPiD was not banking money, likely a sacrifice on his part to because he fucking loves StarCraft. I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better. Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 12:30 BigFan wrote: While I don't doubt Rapid's passion for the game and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong calls time after time just really hurts the viewing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first group of the Ro16. Rapid was talking about a FD in a TvT (not exactly common, mostly in TvP) and then a quick look at the resource counter showed that Mind was banking money, likely a cc but he was talking about some proxy fac or port or something.
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing.
I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better. While there is a chance that this was made in jest, I thought that it's best I reply to your post in the off chance that it's not. I'm going to be frank in my post so if any of this feels rough, apologies in advance.
I believe that the post I wrote was pretty alright. I can't speak for all the other feedback provided in this thread since I have to go back and read them again, but my post was pretty fair and on point. I gave 2 examples from a recent broadcast of what I thought was something to improve on. I commended you for doing your best and praised your passion and excitement. I even went as far as stating that I have no issues if you lack the knowledge, so long as you take a breather and try to figure things out instead of just leaping to the first thing that comes to mind.
Even the best players will take a few moments to collect their thoughts before stating what they believe is going down to go down. Starcraft is a complex game. Unless you play the game at the highest levels for years on end and spend a lot of time learning the game, you'll make a lot of mistakes. Another thing I didn't bother mentioning, but maybe I should've is messing up the players. Stating player x lost his army when it was player y who did etc... I didn't bother because it seemed petty and we all make mistakes anyways so not a big deal.
One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/
PS If you'd rather take this privately, feel free to pm me ~
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Quick positive note to casters: I love you guys all. You are doing great! Like seriously great. All of you. Remember, the people who are content and happy will not be nearly as loud as the ones who are not.
Yep, the TvT FD call and stuff like that is... not ideal (pretty stand-out moment for myself too), but then again, how is a caster whose strongpoints are great fluency and creativity with the language, energy and synergy, charming personality, and a true commentators soul is supposed to know something he doesn't know? Like, "you should not get excited when you are talking about something which you are wrong about". Pretty sure if he knew he was wrong he wouldn't have, but this is like saying, git gud, so you can always know or at least always have some sort of doubts about yourself and not get excited wrongly! That'd make Rapid and insecure and useless caster instead of the colourful, humorous (quick to make a joke of himself too!). Personality is personality, "pay attention to when you might be unsure" is not really a useable mental cue for a commentator. It's just not how sitting and looking at something and having to talk works, not for him anyway. And that's fine. He'll treat the criticism like an adult who knows what the esport business is like and with humour and will be getting better and better. There will be people who'll like his casting style more than others, and there'll be people who'll like it less than others. Such is life.
Shoutout to noregret -- great caster, great style, and despite his absence of bw knowledge many surprisingly accurate theories, assumptions and thoughts only proved what an experienced, professional and intelligent rts caster he is. Loved it!
So there you have it -- always room to improve, naturally, but please (commentator) guys do grow a thick skin. These kind of threads are a given around here, and bound to happen, but I'd hate to see you start feeling bad about them or yourselves. That'd be like feeling bad that the earth is spinning and sun goes up and down the horizon. In other words, pretty silly.
Love to have you in the community!
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On April 24 2018 06:52 BigFan wrote: One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/
There was a small documentary video of Tasteless and Artosis talking about how hard they struggled when they first arrived in Korea and how much work they put into their casts. Something that has stayed with me personally is when Tasteless mentioned that no one is more critical of their casts than they are.
Just as you are free to criticize, they are free to disagree or be upset with the community's feedback. I believe everyone has a right to criticize and speak their opinion, but you can't act like your words have no effect on other people's emotions just because they get paid to do it. People who are being heavily critical of casters and actually hold the opinion that somehow casters think they shouldn't be criticized need to step back and gain some self-awareness. They've been dealing with heavy criticism since StarCraft: Remastered's release. Look at what people are saying in these threads every time they are created. There is always a vocal minority who go past constructive criticism and instead say rude, uninformed, and hurtful opinions that don't contribute a single thing to the discussions. And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback.
I'm not advocating a reform, harder moderation, or for people to silence themselves. I just think if we're going to actually talk about this problem, we should frame it right. And you framed it really wrong.
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Maybe we should start backing up criticism with evidence, its not like all cast aren't available as a VOD...
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I think BigFan's feedback/criticism is just and within reason. He pointed out what he thought could be improved and gave options of how he thinks Rapid should go about on improving it. That's the perfect example of a constructive criticism.
Any entertainer is going to get criticized, it's not the first and won't be the last. Part of the job of the entertainer is to take whatever criticism either constructive or non constructive from the community and filter it out. A musician, no matter how good or bad, if they put a song out, it's going to get praise and criticized. The musician/caster should then take the constructive and using that information to improve upon, and ignoring the non constructive and not be emotionally invested in those comments. Sure we want to frame the words as best as possible to deliver the message as harmless as we can, but sometimes words don't come out right, it's just easier to state it as it is, or there's just no other easy way of sugar coating it.
Criticism when it is not sugar coated can be hard to take in. But it is still necessary to ask whether or not the criticism is true before getting offended by it. It's not the critics fault if the caster is offended and won't take in any constructive criticism/feedback, because it is the caster himself who allowed these comments get into his head.
And again, we as the community should try our best to voice our opinions/feedback as "nicely" as possible, but we obviously can't control what kind of comments comes out of people. Therefore again, it is up to the caster himself to have a thick skin and filter out what is constructive and what is not, that's part of the job of an entertainer.
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Well, the criticism is probably not productive in any way, whether it is constructive or not. It is just venting. It makes me second guess why we do it, since at best we're gentle enough not to hurt someone's feelings, and at worst we do. The posts talking about there not being anyone else in Korea to do it are very good points. Frustratingly for us the Korean VODs are hosted on Afreeca, or we have to hope they get reposted on Flash or Jaedong's YouTube, so it's slightly harder to ignore when we're disappointed by the commentary. But it kind of is what it is. As long as some people enjoy it it's not really a problem, it just isn't to our taste.
It kinda makes me think back to the days when I would post stuff I created on the internet and read the comments. Ultimately you get such a wide variety of responses that you pretty much do whatever you feel like, unless someone you respect and admire gives advice (and even then, it is often better you don't give too much credit). Sometimes you can get inspired by feedback that plays into how you're thinking, but people are not wrong at all when they say complaining someone doesn't know enough about the game is not going to help at all, because the solution to that is unrealistic.
I think most creative people learn to ignore the bulk of comments they get on their creations, and it is probably for the best. Except when you get advice from someone who is like-minded, it's probably only going to throw you off of what you want to do with your stuff.
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On April 25 2018 05:29 Chef wrote: Well, the criticism is probably not productive in any way, whether it is constructive or not. It is just venting. It makes me second guess why we do it, since at best we're gentle enough not to hurt someone's feelings, and at worst we do.
What the heck?
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TLADT24917 Posts
On April 25 2018 03:19 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 06:52 BigFan wrote: One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/ There was a small documentary video of Tasteless and Artosis talking about how hard they struggled when they first arrived in Korea and how much work they put into their casts. Something that has stayed with me personally is when Tasteless mentioned that no one is more critical of their casts than they are. Just as you are free to criticize, they are free to disagree or be upset with the community's feedback. I believe everyone has a right to criticize and speak their opinion, but you can't act like your words have no effect on other people's emotions just because they get paid to do it. People who are being heavily critical of casters and actually hold the opinion that somehow casters think they shouldn't be criticized need to step back and gain some self-awareness. They've been dealing with heavy criticism since StarCraft: Remastered's release. Look at what people are saying in these threads every time they are created. There is always a vocal minority who go past constructive criticism and instead say rude, uninformed, and hurtful opinions that don't contribute a single thing to the discussions. And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I'm not advocating a reform, harder moderation, or for people to silence themselves. I just think if we're going to actually talk about this problem, we should frame it right. And you framed it really wrong. Faust, maybe you should go back and reread our mini-convo because you're veering in a different direction than what I was intending. Also, my post actually had other paragraphs to it so I'm not a bigfan of you isolating a single point and ignoring everything else I wrote.
I never said that he has to agree with the community's feedback. My comment represents myself only which is why I made sure to note that I can't say much on the quality of the feedback provided. I also never said that he shouldn't disagree or be upset over the feedback. Everyone handles feedback differently and some use it to get better while others may not be able to handle it as well.
Regardless of all that, moving to Korea and deciding to become a caster was a decision he made. He's a public figure so to speak so he will be criticized by how he casts and behaves. Whether its excessive or not is another point. This doesn't mean that all feedback is void either. Of course, if the feedback is destructive and is attacking the caster, it's worthless, but constructive feedback can do wonders. Only he can chose whether he wants to accept it or not though.
Anyways, I said my piece already so gonna leave it be ~
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Croatia9359 Posts
On April 25 2018 03:19 SCC-Faust wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2018 06:52 BigFan wrote: One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/ And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I mean, Rapid did basically that with his childish response to the BigFan's original post. I really don't understand why would you reply to a post in such a mocking way, obfuscating the point you're trying to make beyond recognition. I guess mocking was the point, but still, seemed way uncalled for to me.
Anyway, I think anyone who's in the public eye (heck, anyone who interacts with people in general) should read this article: https://github.com/raganwald/presentations/blob/master/optimism.md
It's written with developers in mind, but it's a pretty general presentation.
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On April 25 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote: I'm not a bigfan
Lies.
On a more serious note: I completely side with BigFan here. Well worded.
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On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 03:19 SCC-Faust wrote:On April 24 2018 06:52 BigFan wrote: One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/ And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I mean, Rapid did basically that with his childish response to the BigFan's original post. I really don't understand why would you reply to a post in such a mocking way, obfuscating the point you're trying to make beyond recognition. I guess mocking was the point, but still, seemed way uncalled for to me. Anyway, I think anyone who's in the public eye (heck, anyone who interacts with people in general) should read this article: https://github.com/raganwald/presentations/blob/master/optimism.mdIt's written with developers in mind, but it's a pretty general presentation. i dont think rapid will answer the same way again,i mean based in the amount of replies and the way he did that day it was obvious to me that something is off,atleast is not the way he interacted in the past here on TL.so i dont think we really need to keep growing the fire.
Rapid has to improve his game knowledge ? Yes and im sure he is doing efforts and eventually will improve more,His game knowledge is worse than Qikz ? yes we say it not problem.
We need to bash rapid cuz he sux and we prefer Sayle or someone else that didnt play sc2 so the community can feel about it ? No,in the begin sayle was really lacking basics,but he improved so much that u cant name a better BW caster really.
Personally i like the fact that we have ASL caster rapid in the community and trying to help the game.
+ im sure that for most of us we actually prefer watching the ASL in korean even if we dont understand sh*t lol
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On April 25 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote: Faust, maybe you should go back and reread our mini-convo because you're veering in a different direction than what I was intending. Also, my post actually had other paragraphs to it so I'm not a bigfan of you isolating a single point and ignoring everything else I wrote.
Just to be clear, I read all the posts in this topic. In fact, the reason I didn't respond to the rest of your post was because I mostly agreed with it. Your feedback is fair and well written. I have nothing to contribute towards that, and I have nothing else to continue the conversation in that direction because I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. I am unsure about Rapid's opinion because his post was satirical in nature and from my experiences with him on Discord he jests around a lot. I legitimately don't know what his opinion is about the feedback in this thread, and I'm not going to guess.
I strongly disagree with your ending statement though. You have a point and I won't deny that when it is someone's job, there is expectations in place about how a public figure should handle themselves. In part, casters are a face of StarCraft: Remastered and to a degree their actions represent us. Also, I believe constructive criticism should always be protected. I would not change a thing about how Teamliquid handles it.
That said, it is really hard to deny that when these topics come up there are always a handful of people who do not provide any meaningful discussion. We've had multiple casters voice their concern on this forum about the demeanor of the community. Do I agree with what they say? Not always. But I think it is very wrong to make the assumption that they believe they are free from criticism because they find problems with how we criticize. That creates an impasse due to two sides having completely two different interpretations of the events that take place.
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On April 24 2018 19:46 fazek42 wrote: Quick positive note to casters: I love you guys all. You are doing great! Like seriously great. All of you. Remember, the people who are content and happy will not be nearly as loud as the ones who are not.
This.
It's easy to sit on my couch and criticize things that are less than perfect. But I find them all entertaining, and I think casting Brood War must be almost as hard as playing it, so I forgive minor mistakes just like I forgive the players for not always being perfect. I remember when there were no English casters at all, and what we have now is just way better.
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I don't think it's an accident or coincidence that there are no highly skilled English casters who consistently cast games. I also don't think it makes sense to get into the details of why that be the case, but the fact is that this is the case and frankly it almost always has been besides a few notable exceptions at various times throughout BW's history (someone mentioned SDM, for example).
Throughout all that time, the situation feels like it hasn't changed at all. We have had numerous contributors to the community come in guns blazing and then fade away, burn out, shat all over, etc. We have a relatively unskilled caster who is passionate about the game, puts in a ton of time, effort, and in some case sacrifices to bring his content to the community. The community is divided between people who constantly want x and y from the caster (oftentimes in-game skill and knowledge), and the people who say "it's okay, keep up the good work." The fact of the matter is, it's hard to both invest a lot of time into casting and still have time and energy to get good enough at the game to appease the people who expect a greater depth of understanding of the game from the caster.
What I mean is, if you think about how many months or years it took you to get to this point in your game knowledge, I think you will appreciate how daunting of a task it is to someone who is relatively fresh in the scene to rapidly improve their understanding of the game. Unlike the mechanical aspects or the absolute fundamentals of Brood War, which I think someone can grasp relatively quickly, having game sense and knowledge takes a lot of experience, time, and often guidance. If these people you judge are spending hours each day simply dispensing their current knowledge (and learning a bit in the process through observation/casting itself), do you expect them to invest hours upon hours into playing and studying the game as well, free of pay and on their own time? Let's also not forget that many of us got to our level of skill by investing hours upon hours in college, high school, middle school, etc. These people are now adults with professional lives and real life demands that we didn't have when we were starting the foundation of the skills we have, atop which we look down and judge these people. TLDR: Just telling a caster to "get better game knowledge bro" is like telling a 4th grader who is years away from trigonometry to "just learn calculus in your free time bro." They will, eventually, if they keep at it. But you can't exactly do it overnight, so repeating it over and over while the process is slowly progressing is just wasting your breath.
I like what someone earlier said about it being more about progress than current status. If Tastosis haven't been getting better since they returned a year ago, that is troubling. The fact that Rapid is getting better (a lot better, according to some people in here), is a great thing and should be applauded more. In general, I agree with Schamtoo (I believe it was him that said this, may have been others as well) in that casters generally get shat on disproportionately in the community. In this thread it has mostly been civil, but casters get shat on in other mediums all the time - Discord, stream chat, private messages, etc. For God's sake, I saw someone mention that a caster said it was the wrong person's army at some point? Like, Player X's army in stead of Player Y? Bruh, do you expect these casters to be superhuman and never make a simple verbal error of that nature? Even in top sports, commentators misspeak all the time.
Anyway, I think that this stems from a lack of appreciation for the progress, and a lack of perspective about how difficult it is to accelerate that progress or reach a level that would be universally considered acceptable, not to mention laudable. You also have to wonder why the people who are great at the game not casting, but that's again getting off on that tangent from earlier in the post, so I'll leave that thought piece unfinished.
TL;DR:
Should casters strive to know more about the game that they are casting? Yes. Is it reasonable to expect casters to know about the game that they are casting? Yes. Should we be more understanding of the difficulties of getting to that point? Yes. Should we shit on them in the meantime? No. Is it reasonable to be concerned about the fact that casters are misrepresenting the game, the strategies, etc. to new players and potentially dispensing false information? Yes. Should casters make it obvious that they aren't sure about something before saying something? Yes. Should casters be overly defensive about getting criticism? No, but keep in mind that these casters get shat on regularly already.
If you're a high level player, what are you watching English casts for? a. Entertainment -> You should be set. b. To learn about the game -> Sorry fam, but there aren't many casters out there who have played or watched the game as much as you. c. To complain about the casters -> Lol. d. You don't, you just watch the Korean casts -> Cool, I feel you.
If you're a low level player, what are you watching Engling casts for? a. Entertainment -> You should be set. b. To learn about the game -> Take what you hear with a grain of salt. c. Same as above. d. Same as above.
If you're an English caster? a. People giving you reasonable criticism? Try to keep it in mind, but don't burn yourself out. b. People giving you unreasonable criticism/shitting on you? Fuck 'em, ignore 'em. c. You're not improving? Seek help, ask questions, do research. d. You are improving? Keep up the good work.
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On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote: Anyway, I think anyone [...] who interacts with people in general [...] should read this article. I think it's horse shit.
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Croatia9359 Posts
On April 25 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote: Anyway, I think anyone [...] who interacts with people in general [...] should read this article. I think it's horse shit. You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. After you do that, make sure to submit your paper for publication so it can be peer-reviewed. I'm sure Dr. Seligman who did that already would be more than happy to give you his opinion on it. Heck, I would also be very interested in reading it.
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On April 25 2018 05:43 Miragee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 05:29 Chef wrote: Well, the criticism is probably not productive in any way, whether it is constructive or not. It is just venting. It makes me second guess why we do it, since at best we're gentle enough not to hurt someone's feelings, and at worst we do. What the heck?
Might as well close the forums entirely then, yea.
I love bashing casters for various reasons (hi inc) and while I didn't see the games, how can anyone expect SC2 players/casters to immediately do well in BW? If there is noone else to do these casts, you can a) mute them or b) try to enjoy them for what they bring to the cast. Tasteless and Artosis are held to a different standard and that's only right. Them being lazy about BW I can only agree on. But please, if you do hate on someone new trying it out, go ahead record yourself casting a few games and apply for the next event. Fact is, there are barely enough players to keep the game alive, so it's only natural there being a shortage of well-educated casters.
€: I can't remember any caster who did "big" events starting out even remotely doing well. Most casters do what they do because they enjoy watching the game way more than playing it, no sane person should expect them to be at "at least semi-pro level". I did quite a lot of replay casting way back in the day and I can only tell, BW is fucking hard to get a grip on how to cast and I've played at (foreign ofc) semi-professional level.
Oh, and they guy saying the observer being way more important is 100% right. BW is old as shit and I guess the vast majority of people watching it are old as shit as well, at least when considering the typical Twitch chat crowd. I haven't really played the game for about 7-8 years, but I could still identify 90% of all builds and situations correctly by just seeing them. It's not like that many things have changed.
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On April 25 2018 22:12 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2018 19:23 zerglingling wrote:On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote: Anyway, I think anyone [...] who interacts with people in general [...] should read this article. I think it's horse shit. You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. After you do that, make sure to submit your paper for publication so it can be peer-reviewed. I'm sure Dr. Seligman who did that already would be more than happy to give you his opinion on it. Heck, I would also be very interested in reading it. It seems like a lot of his ideas devolve into generic "Don't rock the boat" self-help stuff that incorrectly implies human psychology is more or less an independent entity from the surrounding environment. If it helps you, great, keep listening to it. Lots of people join religions for the same reason. But for those of us who see things on a more macro level, i.e. the effects of an economic system (and the stage it's in) and the physical environment on the population, then it's hard to take Seligman's solutions seriously.
Furthermore, the human brain is too complex for there to be any "one size fits all" positive psychology approach. One day this will be considered an archaic and medieval approach. Until all components of the human brain can be fully reverse engineered and translated into computer data that can be analyzed by humans with the assistance of AI, we will never truly understand and accurately diagnose mental disorders like clinical depression. Hope this tangent clarifies why soft sciences will forever be hotly debated and many theories will be dismissed as "horse shit."
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On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them.
Maybe it's selective memory, but I don't recall ever getting any sort of hate. I think Sayle was lucky and didn't get much either.
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If I may make a modest proposal...why don’t we stop making caster threads. By the end of these threads I always end up in that weird corner of YouTube that I pretend doesn’t have anything to do with my interests.
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