I feel that we need some more content for really low ranked players to help them learn the basics of the game. There's only Day9 casts and CPL casts. That's pretty much all we have. Even for CPL there are many already developed players that only need some tweaking. I assume that's happeing because most of the players are pretty good already and there's not enough demand for those kinds of streams/tutorials.
Even watching Day9 daily he talks about pretty advanced stuff already. Watch anything else like STPL, BWCL, ASL/KSL and you can see those guys doing different strategies that work for them and you might think that a good build/strategy is pretty much all you need to succeed. You try lots of stuff, try to repeat things seen in pro or semi-pro replays and fail. You fail because you cannot spend you minerals to keep them low, you either overmicro or send your units to death on siege tanks, you cannot use control groups and hotkeys. Nobody (almost) talks about those things. People assume everybody know that and focus mostly on strategies and high level play. But those seemingly little details matter a lot!
So only focusing on keeping your minerals low and not getting supply block can get you out of F soon enough, but if you think and blame your creative strategies you can still be in F for a long time. Most of the time you don't even understand why you win or lose a particular game. You could not judge your own play. So I think there should be more low level streamers and VODs with game analisys. Maybe even something like Bronze League Heroes for Starcraft 2. I believe this could also bring more new players into the game.
I was thinking about this too. I wonder if it would be possible to make like UMS missions for new players to complete, but those missions would be like: 'build nothing but scvs nonstop until you have 200-200" then add a level, don't get suppy blocked while doing that", another level "build only scvs and marines, don't get supply blocked" etc.
When they get that down, include some micro challenges (esp. with early game scenarios like defend ramp with scvs+rines vs ling rush), or BO challenges (like get 4 marines and a tank before 4:20).
I know nothing about making UMSes though, so i could only contribute ideas.
Then of course comes marketing, as such missions as build 200scvs would get boring as fast. Or maybe would need to mix up macro practice with micro challenges.
I am not sure what kind of content would be useful in the "keep your money down" department. There is not much to explain about it and it is almost always addressed again when a beginner asks why he lost a particular game. This part of the game is simply not the fun or important part for the majority of newbies and therefore it is never worked on.
With regards to micro, I guess there really is missing something. I do not recall having ever seen a video along the lines of "How to FD push" or "How to defend an FD push" or anything similar.
the content is to play the game with people you know, at your level. hypothetically speaking, that's how you learn organically and can get the quality of game you look for.
if you are at the most basic level of starcraft one of the worst things you can do is to constantly overthink things. it gets in the way of simply playing the game.
it's just you, a friend, and trying to beat him and vice versa.
streamers for these kinds of things simply get nothing out of it. and the content we had before is either gone, non-applicable, or never actually recorded. game videos were rather rare back then when everyone was learning together.
regarding vids like "how to fake-double" light did a lot of these that ended up being translated by a nice gent. a lot of ex-progamers (read:koreans) have done guides. again though, those are not basics. how you get the basics down is just by finding people and playing.
yeah i dont know what to tell you here.. just do what everybody else does? watch what (safe) buildorders are used at pro level and work from there? you dont need to copy it 100% just basicly do the same opening go from there...
Yo check out this seasons CPL content, With a whole new lower tier of people below 1350, there will be a lot of content for F,E,D players as well as the competitive upper tiers. Additonally there are a few streamers out there in the 1400-1600 range that could be useful to watch. I am 1500ish Protoss and I will start to stream more with commentary so if you wana check some of my games out you could. + Show Spoiler +
Also the signups just closed for CPL, but you should absolutely consider joining it since it is a great opportunity to work these things out with veteran coaches and practice partners. Its set alot of people (myself included) on a upward trajectory.
On September 09 2018 20:39 HaN- wrote: Stuff that exist in SC2 and that could help: - Tutorials - Unranked ladder mode - Co-op
And for all it's worth I've compiled guides found on Youtube into this PLAYLIST.
Yes, this is the stuff I was mostly talking about: VODs, tutorials that explain the basics, playing some simple builds with low APM, noob vs noob replay analysis. Thanks for sharing the playlist, very useful!
Honest truth is that this forum is like this on purpose. There have been countless guides for noobs, include my very own mechanics series, but as you may have noticed in the strategy section there's not even a sticky thread to compile them all together. And that's not because there's no thread at all, it's just that the threads that could be used aren't stickied lmao. Here's an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/436604-collection-of-strategy-threads
In fact, I keep seeing the same questions answered over and over again because people just can't find stuff. Meanwhile, there's a lot of recommendations for day9 daily, which as far as my experience goes, is too advanced and scattered all over the place. Although he does have more focused videos.
To add to that, with the exception of a few good players, most of what happens here is blind leading the blind.
Everyone's seen a noob post a replay and 90% of the posts are talking about making workers or macro in general, even though there's glaring strategical issues that are way more important to fix. This makes noobs not want to post, because even though they don't understand a certain match-up, or just don't know what to do in a given situation, which is what causes them to float in the first place, all they get is the same shit over and over again.
I for one resorted to doing my own research, and advise everyone to do the same. Go to zimps Replays thread, get a bunch of pro replays going and analyse them yourself. Use the Foreign BW Discord if you want newer replays.
Unfortunately, most people don't have the time or motivation to do it and end up ditching the game.
Once you learn a bit more, you'll be able to take get to know who to listen to, which is paramount if you want to get anything out of this forum.
That said, this is a timely thread for me, because I just posted three pro hotkey analysis videos yesterday, one for each race, which you can check out here:
I'm thinking about for a long time. I want to open an SC dedicated portal, with rankings, tutorials, tournaments, news etc. An SC heaven. Primary focus on video content from myself, willing to invite other players as long as quality will be good.
Anyone willing to help out a bit? I'm open to put money into it for hosting, some better graphics and structuring it nicely with filtering etc. I'm ready to roll.
Need help with:
- setting up a webpage, I don't care if it's wordpress or other template, as long as it's neat and has got functionalities around news / filtering / addons like rankings or some forum - graphics - video editing, or at least an intro for me
Personally i'm willing to make few videos a week, on everything from super basics into deep strategic analysis.
On September 10 2018 02:28 kogeT wrote: I'm thinking about for a long time. I want to open an SC dedicated portal, with rankings, tutorials, tournaments, news etc. An SC heaven. Primary focus on video content from myself, willing to invite other players as long as quality will be good.
Anyone willing to help out a bit? I'm open to put money into it for hosting, some better graphics and structuring it nicely with filtering etc. I'm ready to roll.
Need help with:
- setting up a webpage, I don't care if it's wordpress or other template, as long as it's neat and has got functionalities around news / filtering / addons like rankings or some forum - graphics - video editing, or at least an intro for me
Personally i'm willing to make few videos a week, on everything from super basics into deep strategic analysis.
Ping me on TL
dude i've been doing some begginers tutorials stuff in spanish, if you need other content maker i can do protoss and 2vs2 related stuff for newbies, would love to do something for the growth of bw.
On September 10 2018 02:21 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote: Honest truth is that this forum is like this on purpose. There have been countless guides for noobs, include my very own mechanics series, but as you may have noticed in the strategy section there's not even a sticky thread to compile them all together. And that's not because there's no thread at all, it's just that the threads that could be used aren't stickied lmao. Here's an example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/436604-collection-of-strategy-threads
In fact, I keep seeing the same questions answered over and over again because people just can't find stuff. Meanwhile, there's a lot of recommendations for day9 daily, which as far as my experience goes, is too advanced and scattered all over the place. Although he does have more focused videos.
To add to that, with the exception of a few good players, most of what happens here is blind leading the blind.
Everyone's seen a noob post a replay and 90% of the posts are talking about making workers or macro in general, even though there's glaring strategical issues that are way more important to fix. This makes noobs not want to post, because even though they don't understand a certain match-up, or just don't know what to do in a given situation, which is what causes them to float in the first place, all they get is the same shit over and over again.
I for one resorted to doing my own research, and advise everyone to do the same. Go to zimps Replays thread, get a bunch of pro replays going and analyse them yourself. Use the Foreign BW Discord if you want newer replays.
Unfortunately, most people don't have the time or motivation to do it and end up ditching the game.
Once you learn a bit more, you'll be able to take get to know who to listen to, which is paramount if you want to get anything out of this forum.
There is some constructive advice hidden in your rant, but your general condamnation of TL's dealing with noobs is just BS. "It's beginner-unfriendly on purpose", that's what you're saying?
I second that it would be nice if someone sat down and made the ultimate beginner-thread-sticky, with a short and welcoming introductory text and the perfect bundle of useful links. That'd be a lot of work though if it shouldn't derail into an incomprehensible wall of text and a ton of links to semi-good, halfway-useful existing guides. Organizing and presenting information is tough... The people who run TL do it for free, it's not their job...
Actually: You can find all the info you need to start fruitful personal practice (which no tutorial can replace), and there are tons of people willing and able to help out on noob questions, people who know that it's hard to find or arrange everything there is to know to even start off in BW.
TL did a lot over the recent years to become much more beginner friendly: Liquidpedia-Beginner-Portal? Forum Guidelines that point to these Recommended Threads? Threads like "General Discussions" or "Simple Q, Simple A" that work the other way around: ask and you shall receive? Where people do all their best to help you?
Newbs ask the same questions most of the time here not because they cannot find the answer but because they don't look for it themselves. They ask stuff that you can test in the game in 1 minute by yourself, they ask stuff that can be found on Liquidpedia in the unit-description-threads or in the basic matchup-guides. That'd take more time oftentimes than just asking. No problem. People still help them every time.
If someone posts a replay here, they get the "macro better"-advice most of the time because it is one of the most important advices and because half of the noobs don't even seem to understand that bad macro is an issue. It's actually directly linked to the usefulness of advice on strategy: if s.o. has bad macro, giving him strategy-advice is a dice-roll. Next time he/she'll come "the strategy didn't work", guess what, you need macro for it to work. And yet: right behind the "macro-better"-advice, most of the answers will include strategy-help anyway, formulated on beginner-level-comprehensibility ("In TvP it's OK to be one base down" or something like that).
Giving someone who's new the advice that he/she needs is not so easy as you might think, not in a game as complex as BW with 20 years of development where so much "basic"-stuff is 100% counter-intuitive. Could you sum up just all the basic stuff that there is to say about matchups, strategy, mechanics, mindset in a readable text that doesn't turn into half a book? (again: I think it would be nice if there was one thread to teach them all, even if it turned into the equivalent of a 1000p book. But that's just a shit-ton of work...)
I watched your "Pro Hotkey Analysis"-"Tutorial" and I have to say: I wouldn't rant so self-righteously if that'd be all I could do... You "analyse" hardly anything. Once every 1-2 minutes or so you say "and here Zero puts stuff on hotkey X". Yes, in the first half you drop a sencence here and there about why Zero does this, but the rest of the time people can watch the game with you silently or listen to you stating the obvious about what's happening. Good for newbies I guess, if they wanna stay that way. I don't think I did you wrong with that description. But as hinted above: I applaud anyone's effort, according to his/her skills, to make TL even more beginner friendly. More tutorial vids of any kind are a great way for sure.
While I'm still a scrub, heres the stuff that was really valuable to me way back when. If I can remember anything else thats still somewhat relevant I'll be sure to post. Otherwise, its just a matter of learning and practice.
Day9 used to podcast back in the day before the daily existed, and while any openings he talks about will obviously be dated, he did make a lot of great points of how to think about the game, how to come up with strategies, and how to get your mechanics going smooth in terms of what you see, where you are at, and how to react. Remember while you can get away with just copying in starcraft without really understanding the game, I'd say its way more fun if you get a sense of how the game works. Day9 definitely gets the whole science of broodwar aspect, so give these old ones a listen! Day(9) Podcasts
And for those of you tryna bust out sair DT, I'd say this old gem is worth a watch:
Focus on the fundamentals. You already know that units generally are better than static defense, you need to hot key your bases, non stop build workers in most situations, etc... but in practice are you doing all these things? Playing “right” will get you to D level most likely. When you can get to D level, I think then it’s time to start thinking strategy, then specific build orders.
Also didn’t Artosis also get placed in F league? Lol.
People who are higher up spent lots of time building up fundamentals. Like- years fine tuning mechanics and game understanding.
I have been playing Starcraft so much. Last season, I played more than 2000 games. My max mmr was 1650.
I often get F, D, C rank. I don't know difference between F rank and C rank. They have high apm, most people who play with me, have than 200 apm.
F, D, C rank are the same: apm, strategy, micro, marco, cheese, knowledge about Starcraft.
I also don't know why I won, I lost a lot of games. Yesterday, it was my first time, I reached B rank and immediately I lost 5 games stretch.
Finally, I think ladder games, it isn't for people who play Starcraft less than 6 months seriously. Blizzard should open option to players who choose their level. They can't play a game, when they lose very easily in 10 games stretch. Actually, I have 1500 mmr, it's a success.
I have played Starcraft for 15 years. My level likes a newbie.
Have anyone thought about fully fledged BW video courses? Like we have on coursera or eDX. Nice startup idea, can sell them for $49.99 in no time. The game is clearly complex enough.
Unfortunately the number of skilled players in Brood War far outweigh the number of uber-noobs. Reading a strategy or two is fun when you use it to beat your friends at your level, I'm not so sure it's that fun to feel like you are always playing catch-up. We kind of lost the source of uber-noobs when the diablo II - WCIII - SC:BW bnet 1 ecosystem fell apart. So the audience for such guides you're suggesting does not really have a large player base to make use of those guides for.
But anyway, all the pre-2005 guides can basically be summed up as this:
Never stop building workers. Don't get supply blocked. Build more unit-producing structures when your money gets high. Expand when you think your expansion won't be killed. Zerg want one more base than Terran or Protoss. Protoss want one more base than Terran. When you have 3 or 4 gas you can basically do whatever you want.
And then maybe some stuff like Firebats counter lings Dragoons counter Lurkers psi storm is needed vs Zerg ghosts are a bad unit.
Like when we're talking really basic and simple and easy to remember, those are kind of the main points that help people before they turn into try-hards that memorize build orders, but they're still good enough that the idea of an RTS isn't baffling to them.
Tournament for low league players (like really low, F-E) would really help.
Ladder numbers are too low so it's really hard to find matches that are somewhat even. Structures tournament can help there and are way more fun to play than ladder.
Additional content to learn the game is not really necessary imo. There is already a lot and having competitive options where you are not crushed by players with 150 apm more than you is more important.
On September 11 2018 05:47 leublix wrote: Tournament for low league players (like really low, F-E) would really help.
Ladder numbers are too low so it's really hard to find matches that are somewhat even. Structures tournament can help there and are way more fun to play than ladder.
Additional content to learn the game is not really necessary imo. There is already a lot and having competitive options where you are not crushed by players with 150 apm more than you is more important.
This would be cool tbh. I would join the league. Only reason i hardly play now is because of the huge skill gap between players. It always feels like I'm a CPU in comparison to other players and learning is actually quite difficult when you get hulk smashed with ease in the first 5 mins.
On September 10 2018 15:44 bovienchien wrote: I have been playing Starcraft so much. Last season, I played more than 2000 games. My max mmr was 1650.
I often get F, D, C rank. I don't know difference between F rank and C rank. They have high apm, most people who play with me, have than 200 apm.
F, D, C rank are the same: apm, strategy, micro, marco, cheese, knowledge about Starcraft.
I also don't know why I won, I lost a lot of games. Yesterday, it was my first time, I reached B rank and immediately I lost 5 games stretch.
Finally, I think ladder games, it isn't for people who play Starcraft less than 6 months seriously. Blizzard should open option to players who choose their level. They can't play a game, when they lose very easily in 10 games stretch. Actually, I have 1500 mmr, it's a success.
I have played Starcraft for 15 years. My level likes a newbie.
Ouch... I know the feels lol. Basically sums me up. There is hardly any skill gap in the tiers cause they all feel indistinguishable in terms of skill. Everyone is so damn good now that even the "noobs" destroy me with ease lol.
On September 09 2018 20:32 nanaoei wrote: the content is to play the game with people you know, at your level. hypothetically speaking, that's how you learn organically and can get the quality of game you look for.
I definitely think that having a small community of sorts (or at least 1 friend) that you can play friendly matches with without being toooo stressed out about results, plus post game review is really helpful.
This + playing single player vs computer macroing to 200/200 while moving army around middle of the map was useful for me back in the day when I first started playing.
On September 09 2018 20:32 nanaoei wrote: the content is to play the game with people you know, at your level. hypothetically speaking, that's how you learn organically and can get the quality of game you look for.
I definitely think that having a small community of sorts (or at least 1 friend) that you can play friendly matches with without being toooo stressed out about results, plus post game review is really helpful.
This + playing single player vs computer macroing to 200/200 while moving army around middle of the map was useful for me back in the day when I first started playing.
Same I still do this, is maxing out against the computer as quickly and consistently as possible while playing as if I am a real opponent by scouting and making moves as if the computer was about to harass or atk.
On September 09 2018 20:39 onlystar wrote: yeah i dont know what to tell you here.. just do what everybody else does? watch what (safe) buildorders are used at pro level and work from there? you dont need to copy it 100% just basicly do the same opening go from there...
I'm not convinced that pro level build orders are actually good for beginning players. For one thing, they're usually too optimized for economy/tech, with just a bare minimum of defense. As a beginner it's too easy to just get rolled from minor screwups early on, and you probably can't handle all that much economy anyway, so you just end up floating resources. Much easier to just build more static defense instead. I mean, you're not going to win any starleagues that way, but that's probably not a realistic goal anyway so....
Also, it just takes some of the fun away when all you do is blindly copy someone else's build orders. I wish we had more of a community of lower-level players who felt free to try their own and experiment. There's a lot of strategies that don't work at the pro level, but still work just fine at lower levels. Like hydras in ZvZ for example.
On September 09 2018 20:39 onlystar wrote: yeah i dont know what to tell you here.. just do what everybody else does? watch what (safe) buildorders are used at pro level and work from there? you dont need to copy it 100% just basicly do the same opening go from there...
I'm not convinced that pro level build orders are actually good for beginning players. For one thing, they're usually too optimized for economy/tech, with just a bare minimum of defense. As a beginner it's too easy to just get rolled from minor screwups early on, and you probably can't handle all that much economy anyway, so you just end up floating resources. Much easier to just build more static defense instead. I mean, you're not going to win any starleagues that way, but that's probably not a realistic goal anyway so....
Also, it just takes some of the fun away when all you do is blindly copy someone else's build orders. I wish we had more of a community of lower-level players who felt free to try their own and experiment. There's a lot of strategies that don't work at the pro level, but still work just fine at lower levels. Like hydras in ZvZ for example.
I would say just keep it simple. For example don't get supply blocked, constantly make workers, and don't float over x amount of minerals (x will vary obviously)
I'm not convinced that pro level build orders are actually good for beginning players. For one thing, they're usually too optimized for economy/tech, with just a bare minimum of defense. As a beginner it's too easy to just get rolled from minor screwups early on, and you probably can't handle all that much economy anyway, so you just end up floating resources. Much easier to just build more static defense instead. I mean, you're not going to win any starleagues that way, but that's probably not a realistic goal anyway so....
Also, it just takes some of the fun away when all you do is blindly copy someone else's build orders. I wish we had more of a community of lower-level players who felt free to try their own and experiment. There's a lot of strategies that don't work at the pro level, but still work just fine at lower levels. Like hydras in ZvZ for example.
That's probably a good point, but is there any solid beginner friendly builds to study?
By solid I mean with a good chance to do well in a long macro game, non-all-in builds. The things I usually see that's kind of easier for lower level players are early game cheese like 4 pool, 9 pool speed, BBS, proxy gates etc.
I think they are easier coz the longer the game goes the more you falling behind unable to keep up with macro. We don't see any 2002 builds as well, but maybe some of them were pretty good. I think sometimes it's useful to get back in history and try to make sense of 1 base zerg, 1 base protoss builds and things like that. But I might be wrong, not sure.
On the other hand instead of practicing easier wrong builds you can focus on improving your mechanics doing the right builds eventually at OK level.
As a huge noob myself, I think there's not really a problem with the quality/amount of beginner-level resources for teaching strategy and game concepts. The point has already been made in this thread that the information is a bit scattered and disorganized, but that's not anywhere near the biggest hurdle for new players imo. What is really needed are resources for teaching mechanics. And I'm talking something way more than "hotkey your Nexus to 0 because that's close to P" and stuff in that vein. What I really think I would benefit from is some instruction in how to actually perform the mechanics that I need. Someone posted an ASMR video of NaDa in a different thread, which I watched just to see what his hands were doing. There's not a lot of chances for noobs to actually see that part of SC. More stuff like that, but actually designed to be instructional, would be great. People may complain "noobs aren't willing to learn/practice that because it's not as fun", which is probably partly valid, but the fact is, I've found NO such videos or resources at all. And please no one respond by posting that stupid hotkey trainer map with the civilian you have to rescue, I don't find that map helpful or applicable to ladder games.
The best advice really is to just play with people who are at your level.
"Figuring things out for yourself is the only freedom anyone really has. Exercise that freedom."
Back when I was a noob, I had a couple of friends who were also nooby. I played Zerg against my friend's Terran. Because I knew he was afraid to attack against Lurkers, I built a couple of lurkers, put them in a choke point, and then massed queens with broodling, and just killed him by casting spawn broodling over and over. It was a completely asinine strategy, but I came up with it and it worked against my friend, so I felt overwhelming pride. The process of thinking about how to beat someone specific who is at your level is the most fun part of learning. Really focus on that.
Lower league cups would be fun and something I'd probably sign up for.
Biggest hurdle as a newbie terran feels like army management and getting into some kind of rhythm with production and hotkeying reinforcements etc.
There's also the retarded losses that could be avoided by better highlighting of facts such as bunker repair stops if bunker reaches full health, and how to hold position scv's (that I need a marine for it is seriously nowhere on the wiki).
On September 12 2018 01:24 badpenny wrote: As a huge noob myself, I think there's not really a problem with the quality/amount of beginner-level resources for teaching strategy and game concepts. The point has already been made in this thread that the information is a bit scattered and disorganized, but that's not anywhere near the biggest hurdle for new players imo. What is really needed are resources for teaching mechanics. And I'm talking something way more than "hotkey your Nexus to 0 because that's close to P" and stuff in that vein. What I really think I would benefit from is some instruction in how to actually perform the mechanics that I need. Someone posted an ASMR video of NaDa in a different thread, which I watched just to see what his hands were doing. There's not a lot of chances for noobs to actually see that part of SC. More stuff like that, but actually designed to be instructional, would be great. People may complain "noobs aren't willing to learn/practice that because it's not as fun", which is probably partly valid, but the fact is, I've found NO such videos or resources at all. And please no one respond by posting that stupid hotkey trainer map with the civilian you have to rescue, I don't find that map helpful or applicable to ladder games.
I think that the dearth of content for total noobs is because, if I recall my formative years properly, when you are first getting acquainted with the game you are expected to familiarize yourself with fundamental concepts through playing. Play the campaign to learn what all the buildings and units do. After that, the beginner resources that have been available for well over a decade, namely build orders, hotkey threads, etc. show you a basic outline of what to do. It is then your task to practice those build orders to get them down pat. Nowadays you can download tons of replays to see exactly how pro players do things, you can watch FPVODs, etc. I don't think watching or reading even more things will help as much newer players want or expect. It ultimately comes down to practicing - pushing yourself to play faster, using hotkeys better, and learning the usual interactions you will experience like 1 Gate Expand vs. FD through experience, then rewatching your own replays, comparing to what you know from progamer VODs and reps, etc.
I think the major issue is that noobs are too varied in just how noob they are. Every noob has a certain set of fundamental issues out of a countless number of issues that a player may have. It's simply impractical to address every issue, and it's impractical for noobs to read/watch every possible issue being addressed. Coaching 1 on 1 seems to be the best answer to solving the specific issues that new players face, but I also think that a lot of new players can already get ahead just by using existing resources and through practice. Maybe I'm not fully understanding exactly what people are looking for, but it's safe to say that if it doesn't exist then it wasn't necessary for the development of the current batch of players that are not noobs. Maybe you are expecting to develop much faster than is reasonable? Or, as I said before, maybe your expectations for resources and how much they will improve your gameplay aren't realistic? I don't mean to be insulting but what is being said just seems to run counter to my own experience when learning this game.
To elaborate a bit more, I didn't have a coach of any sort until I was already at what would be a consistent 1500-1600 MMR today. I had friends who were even skill with me or a bit below, or a bit better. I simply mass gamed with them, watched VODs, read builds, watched my own replays, and talked with my friends about the game which helped strengthen our knowledge. Personally, I think that just about everything necessary to improvement is already available - you just need to go out there and grab it. For example, there are a few people that send me reps and I analyze them and tell them what I think they did wrong, kind of like coaches in CPL but on a one-shot basis. I have a few friends I can still call on to 1v1 with if they are free, and talk about the game afterward. Use the resources that are already out there, and most importantly, practice. Practice should make up the majority of your training IMO, not watching, reading, and being coached. The more you play, the more comfortable you get with the GUI and hotkeys, the more easily you can exercise your will on the game and improve.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
I'm not convinced that pro level build orders are actually good for beginning players. For one thing, they're usually too optimized for economy/tech, with just a bare minimum of defense. As a beginner it's too easy to just get rolled from minor screwups early on, and you probably can't handle all that much economy anyway, so you just end up floating resources. Much easier to just build more static defense instead. I mean, you're not going to win any starleagues that way, but that's probably not a realistic goal anyway so....
Also, it just takes some of the fun away when all you do is blindly copy someone else's build orders. I wish we had more of a community of lower-level players who felt free to try their own and experiment. There's a lot of strategies that don't work at the pro level, but still work just fine at lower levels. Like hydras in ZvZ for example.
That's probably a good point, but is there any solid beginner friendly builds to study?
By solid I mean with a good chance to do well in a long macro game, non-all-in builds. The things I usually see that's kind of easier for lower level players are early game cheese like 4 pool, 9 pool speed, BBS, proxy gates etc.
I think they are easier coz the longer the game goes the more you falling behind unable to keep up with macro. We don't see any 2002 builds as well, but maybe some of them were pretty good. I think sometimes it's useful to get back in history and try to make sense of 1 base zerg, 1 base protoss builds and things like that. But I might be wrong, not sure.
On the other hand instead of practicing easier wrong builds you can focus on improving your mechanics doing the right builds eventually at OK level.
Bear in mind that, the longer the game goes on, the less important your initial build order is. After 30 minutes, are you even going to remember whether you went 12 pool or 12 hatch to start? If you have a "build order loss" than you'll probably just die pretty quickly. If your build order has some huge, obvious flaw than you'll probably notice it on your own.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
I'm wondering if learning these silly cheesy strategies that have no staying power above a certain MMR is even worth it. Sure, you learn mechanics while you're doing this, but you're learning the game from an angle that will never be relevant to you again. Doesn't it make more sense to do things that are actually viable even if you suck at them, and focus on getting better at not sucking at them? Or at the very least, choosing army-heavy builds like 10/21 Gate Dragoon vs. Terran so that you can learn how to play with a relatively safe build that is at least somewhat similar to real builds?
I get that if noobs aren't winning their games, they might ragequit and never get to the point of nailing that FD timing or defending against that 9 Pool with FFE, but aren't pro builds the better way for them to spend their time and actually improve at the strategic elements of the game?
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
I'm wondering if learning these silly cheesy strategies that have no staying power above a certain MMR is even worth it. Sure, you learn mechanics while you're doing this, but you're learning the game from an angle that will never be relevant to you again. Doesn't it make more sense to do things that are actually viable even if you suck at them, and focus on getting better at not sucking at them? Or at the very least, choosing army-heavy builds like 10/21 Gate Dragoon vs. Terran so that you can learn how to play with a relatively safe build that is at least somewhat similar to real builds?
I get that if noobs aren't winning their games, they might ragequit and never get to the point of nailing that FD timing or defending against that 9 Pool with FFE, but aren't pro builds the better way for them to spend their time and actually improve at the strategic elements of the game?
I think you're taking what I said to too much of an extreme. I'm not saying you have to do super cheesy strategies every game, I'm just saying you don't have to follow the same ultra-economized builds that the pros use. Maybe start off by building a lot of cannons, and gradually shift to building fewer cannons as you get better at reacting to small movements on the minimap. Or like you said, you can start off with doing army-heavy builds, and then change to more econ-heavy builds once you feel with macro+micro at the same time. I just feel like Starcraft has lost some of what it had when I was a kid, before broadband internet, when we all felt free to develop our own strategies.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
I'm wondering if learning these silly cheesy strategies that have no staying power above a certain MMR is even worth it. Sure, you learn mechanics while you're doing this, but you're learning the game from an angle that will never be relevant to you again. Doesn't it make more sense to do things that are actually viable even if you suck at them, and focus on getting better at not sucking at them? Or at the very least, choosing army-heavy builds like 10/21 Gate Dragoon vs. Terran so that you can learn how to play with a relatively safe build that is at least somewhat similar to real builds?
I get that if noobs aren't winning their games, they might ragequit and never get to the point of nailing that FD timing or defending against that 9 Pool with FFE, but aren't pro builds the better way for them to spend their time and actually improve at the strategic elements of the game?
I think you're taking what I said to too much of an extreme. I'm not saying you have to do super cheesy strategies every game, I'm just saying you don't have to follow the same ultra-economized builds that the pros use. Maybe start off by building a lot of cannons, and gradually shift to building fewer cannons as you get better at reacting to small movements on the minimap. Or like you said, you can start off with doing army-heavy builds, and then change to more econ-heavy builds once you feel with macro+micro at the same time. I just feel like Starcraft has lost some of what it had when I was a kid, before broadband internet, when we all felt free to develop our own strategies.
Oh ok. I was going off of what you listed as Effort's suggestions and I thought to myself "these just get people cheesy wins, not actual gamesense." What you're saying here about the cannons makes more sense to me.
I think there is still a time and place for goofy strategies, and when people are asking to improve, that is not one of them. You can still style on people in pub games with silly strats if you're good enough, or you can sit at the bottom of the MMR table and do whatever you feel like doing (but don't expect to get much better at the game), or find a group of friends to goof around with. Mostly though I think it is your personal experience that is affecting your answers here (although I admit that is true for most of us).
What's missing in this thread is that even an F player who maintains his rating is quite skilled compared to a beginner.
Tbh, even 100 apm is quite an achievement from a beginner's perspective. I think that we tend to forget that.
Not sure if there is an easy solution to this while the pool of beginners remains so small but it is a need that the community should think about addressing in the future.
I have watched those Birdie videos, but only once, so thanks for bringing them to my attention again. There's a lot of good stuff in them. But when you watch the Jaedong video, it's clear that particular fingers on his left hand are assigned to particular keys/sets of keys in order to minimize hand movement. Even if you slow that video down to x.25 speed, that's not what (my) noob hands look like playing SC. I'm not aware of any tutorials/guides which focus on that aspect of the game, although I think they would be immensely helpful to a lot of people.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
I'm wondering if learning these silly cheesy strategies that have no staying power above a certain MMR is even worth it. Sure, you learn mechanics while you're doing this, but you're learning the game from an angle that will never be relevant to you again. Doesn't it make more sense to do things that are actually viable even if you suck at them, and focus on getting better at not sucking at them? Or at the very least, choosing army-heavy builds like 10/21 Gate Dragoon vs. Terran so that you can learn how to play with a relatively safe build that is at least somewhat similar to real builds?
I get that if noobs aren't winning their games, they might ragequit and never get to the point of nailing that FD timing or defending against that 9 Pool with FFE, but aren't pro builds the better way for them to spend their time and actually improve at the strategic elements of the game?
I think you're taking what I said to too much of an extreme. I'm not saying you have to do super cheesy strategies every game, I'm just saying you don't have to follow the same ultra-economized builds that the pros use. Maybe start off by building a lot of cannons, and gradually shift to building fewer cannons as you get better at reacting to small movements on the minimap. Or like you said, you can start off with doing army-heavy builds, and then change to more econ-heavy builds once you feel with macro+micro at the same time. I just feel like Starcraft has lost some of what it had when I was a kid, before broadband internet, when we all felt free to develop our own strategies.
Because that would defeat the point of trying to get better at a reasonable timeframe. I get what you're saying but time is too valuable to be messing around and trying to learn based off experience alone by testing if 20 canons vs 20 sunkens is viable.
A more reasonable solution is to simply ask someone if that would work.
The purpose of these posts, tutorials, videos is to avoid making the mistakes people have already figured out don't work for the past 20+ years. It takes an eternity to get good at SC without any guidance. I think most people asking for advice are past the curiosity stage where you just do random stuff for the heck of it and more into improving at the fastest rate possible stage.
Personally, I don't have time to see if 30 goliath are better than 20 tanks. I would much prefer practicing mechanics, micro, macro, ect...
As someone who has played for 15+ years the best way to learn as a beginner imo is to join that CPL league, make a commitment to learning the game and discuss with whoever is the coach what your mistakes were by watching replays, more importantly tho is to understand mistakes and your weaknesses
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
I have watched those Birdie videos, but only once, so thanks for bringing them to my attention again. There's a lot of good stuff in them. But when you watch the Jaedong video, it's clear that particular fingers on his left hand are assigned to particular keys/sets of keys in order to minimize hand movement. Even if you slow that video down to x.25 speed, that's not what (my) noob hands look like playing SC. I'm not aware of any tutorials/guides which focus on that aspect of the game, although I think they would be immensely helpful to a lot of people.
Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
As you can see, there are quite a few ways people do it: + Show Spoiler +
I'm Terran so my SCVs are handily on S, and the "worst" (it's easy after a while) is I for irradiate, O for siege, P for patrol, L for lift (buildings) and 8/9/0 + S for scan.
I guess that cross-race, if we talk about standard hotkeys and left hand = keyboard hand, from what I've seen streamers and progamers do when I paid attention, you want a standard-position that - on the left side of the keyboard (where 80-90% or so of shit happens) allows you to easily hit 1 with ring- or middle-finger, and shift/ctrl with pinky - on the right side of the keyboard allows your thumb to reach all the way to keys like 0 (zero), P, M
For me, when my wrist is located on the edge of the table, the keyboard is positioned so that my relaxed fingers from pinky to index can lie on ASDF. That way the pinky can reach ctrl and ring can reach 1 easily... my thumb can go all the way to 0 by reaching the hand forward-right.
I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill to have... most people, I think, do it - with pinky for A or ring-finger for A (I think Flash does this) and - they go from 1 onwards up the numbers with ring- or middle-finger until they (have to) switch to index-finger, later even to thumb.
So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
As mentioned (and as you can see in the threads linked above), some people might do it very differently, e.g. actually fully lift their hand to reach 0 or P with their index-finger instead of thumb... or do the 1a2a3a4a5a without the pinky at all... but from what I've read over time, the above mentioned is quite standard. In that video I posted, JD seemed to not use 1 and 2 too much (even though he could for sure), maybe his main control-groups are on other numbers, and I guess that could be a workaround if 1a2a with ring/pinky is hard for someone... or he uses other control-groups than 1 and 2 for specific micro-situations where he needs to reach a key on the right of the keyboard... a lot is really up to building your own system around the basic tools that Birdie's or other tutorials explain.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others.
Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong!
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill toi have...
Fixed.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5
Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now.
Wow, thanks for taking the time to write all of that Highgamer. Your post gives me a lot to work with for where I'm at now. I will definitely start with 1a2a3a, since right now I do that all with my index finger.
If at some point you wonder how you assign units or a building to 8/9/0 (I guess few can reach it with their thumb while pressing left-ctrl with pinky ^^): you can use thumb to press the right-ctrl-button and then the numbers with index or middle.
Apart from that, until there will be this "one thread to teach them all": If you have tricky questions that seem hard to answer by searching for threads with the search-function (as there will be 50-90% useless answers for you in those), the best thing to do atm is to drop a question in the "Simple Questions Simple Answers"-Thread in the Strategy-Section. But all the threads above e.g. I found by searching for "fingers" or "hands" or "hand position" being mentioned in a thread title, and by limiting the search first to the BW strategy forum, then, if I don't find anything, BW General Forum.
I'm still a relative brood war noob, I played UMS as a kid but mostly got into WC3 and SC2. I remember watching ASL season 1 and Tastosis gave some really good commentary and insights into the meta game and general game mechanics. Also Day9's let's learn starcraft series is really good for noobs. I think the issue isn't lack of content for noobs but rather the lack of noobs. The SC:R launch wasn't exactly perfect for Blizzard and there aren't many people that want to play the game in 2018. I think its a bit of catch 22.
I would love for there to be more people at the lower skill levels though because then I would play more.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others.
Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong!
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5
Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now.
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others.
Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong!
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill toi have...
Fixed.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5
Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now.
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
Yes my hands are relatively small - about 18 cm (7 inches) from the tip of my middle finger to the base of the palm, 22 cm (9 inches) from top of the thumb to tip of the pinky with maximum extension. For this reason I always choose laptops and keyboards with small, clustered keys. This finger set up for 1a2a3a works well for me because I don't have to change fingers mid-process and my fingers are pretty flexible which allows my middle finger to go over the pinky pretty comfortably. I can still do things like 0s for scanning as Terran with relative ease.
For reference, I use unedited hotkeys, I am max 2000 MMR with around 180-230 APM in the mid-late game so I don't think it holds me back.
On September 14 2018 07:46 Highgamer wrote: Be warned, Cheesefome: False citation and plagiarism at the same time is the pinnacle of harming the author's rights.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others.
Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong!
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill toi have...
Fixed.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5
Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now.
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
It's the way this forum works lol. Not sure why it works this way but when you quote someone, instead of taking you all the way to the bottom to make your comment, it starts the typing in the center of the paragraph of the person you're responding to. Makes no sense.
I made my post, realized it was in the center, tried to edit, copy paste my reply at the bottom but i must have highlighted some of the paragraph I was replying to xD.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: Finger positioning is a really difficult topic because a) everyone's hands/fingers and their mobility are different and b) there are different ways to press certain keys and combinations that don't make a real difference and c) the races require different hotkeys (like Protoss needs "P" much more often for Probes than Terran for example - or needed; can't you make your own hotkeys now?)
This. This is the sort of stuff I mean when I said that maybe noobs don't understand how impractical certain types of advice is, or how some advice may even be the wrong "fit" for some noobs but not others.
Regardless, as you showed, threads of this nature exist - people just need to use the search bar. It's 2018, your GoogleFu has to be strong!
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: I'd start with the way you 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a as that is a very important skill toi have...
Fixed.
On September 13 2018 08:47 Highgamer wrote: So if 5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index I'd go:
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
4 5 4 5 3 5 2 5 2 5 2 5
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5 3 5
Didn't even realize I did it this way lol. I remember responding to a thread on this subject in the past and I don't think I had the same answer. I think it changed because I have a different keyboard set-up now.
ughhhhhhhh what is this set up lol. Why are your fingers so clustered. Guessing you have little hands. Out of interest I decided to follow your system to see how my 1a2a3a4a works.
Yes my hands are relatively small - about 18 cm (7 inches) from the tip of my middle finger to the base of the palm, 22 cm (9 inches) from top of the thumb to tip of the pinky with maximum extension. For this reason I always choose laptops and keyboards with small, clustered keys. This finger set up for 1a2a3a works well for me because I don't have to change fingers mid-process and my fingers are pretty flexible which allows my middle finger to go over the pinky pretty comfortably. I can still do things like 0s for scanning as Terran with relative ease.
For reference, I use unedited hotkeys, I am max 2000 MMR with around 180-230 APM in the mid-late game so I don't think it holds me back.
@Highgamer: Lol.
5=pinky, 4=ring, 3=middle, 2=index 1=thumb
1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 a
2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1
I started playing when i was 10 years old (30 now) and i have small hands (about the same as jealous, roughly 18cm from middle finger to base So basically when i was at that age i had to do it that way and it has been stuck as that ever since, cant imagine doing it any other way
What experienced player wants to say: - If you don't analyze things yourself you won't get much better. - If you solely watch Vods and get your knowledge from there, you won't get much better.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
On September 14 2018 22:28 BlueStar wrote: What experienced player wants to say: - If you don't analyze things yourself you won't get much better. - If you solely watch Vods and get your knowledge from there, you won't get much better.
What newbies want: - More VODs with explanations!
It's kinda paragraph 22
This pretty much sums it up.
Videos are very vague and don't exactly explain why certain things are being build or why a specific set up of buildings (for example, terran almost always needing to block their entrance) are being set the way that they are.
On September 14 2018 22:28 BlueStar wrote: What experienced player wants to say: - If you don't analyze things yourself you won't get much better. - If you solely watch Vods and get your knowledge from there, you won't get much better.
What newbies want: - More VODs with explanations!
It's kinda paragraph 22
This pretty much sums it up.
Videos are very vague and don't exactly explain why certain things are being build or why a specific set up of buildings (for example, terran almost always needing to block their entrance) are being set the way that they are.
I partly disagree with both of your statements, that instruction (instead of personal analysis) can't make you much better, and that videos are vague and can't explain in detail. Disagree only partly, because obviously, you need personal analysis at some point to really let things sink and to realize your personal mistakes, and because a lot of videos are vague or don't offer the specific info that all the different noob-viewers need.
But in this day and age, where everyone else has 5, 10, 20 years of head-start to a noob, it is actually very important that they can read/watch a guide that explains them something quickly, instead of going through a years-long-journey of finding and analysing, always miles behind everyone else. You can shorten that process and of course you should shorten it as much as possible for all the information that can just be quickly grasped by getting instructed.
Like someone wrote above: If you don't know - and it's not explained in the game or even on Liquidpedia - that you can hold-position a worker (SCV on ramp vs lings e.g.) by selecting it together with a unit, you might struggle very long with holding 9-pools, and you might not even know what you have to analyse and look for on the forum... A well made video "TvZ how to hold 9 pool" could explain you in 5 minutes all the important things about that, including building-placement and the basic thought process about the goal of 9 pool and the following strategic situation, thus saving you hours or days of searching and blind personal analysis... who could argue against it if fresh-players today were given that short-cut to valid information?
edit: best proof that watching well made VoDs can save you a lot of time in the fields of search/analysis before you can start your personal practice: Stylish's Vods
this topic is very silly. it seems obvious to me that the reason there's a lack of this sort of content is because there's no demand or not need for it. how hard is it to start playing a game and record your thoughts on it with the third party perspective of a beginner in mind?
5, 10, 20 years matter nothing for the sake of skill and strategy comparison. if you were to get a 15 year old kid who has been playing super casually, and you get them to commit to it for a year, they will likely be better than that guy who has "played more than 10 years". i don't know how someone could be prideful about that at this point, as though years is a metric for translatable skill within the game. unless the guy with several years under his belt has committed for those ten years himself, there is really no telling whether or not he is better or has more potential than anyone else who can play the game.
the fact of the matter is, very few people create their own strategies anymore. you could pick up a style that has been working lately and work on it yourself to fuel some wins. once grasping the basics--which is what this thread was supposed to be about--you could very easily come to a good level with any chosen strategy in a very small amount of time. that is what those 5, 10, 20 years has afforded newer players. they are able to learn by watching how optimized play looks, and rote memory.
if you truly need to improve, you go in with the mentality that everything you do is mostly incorrect or needs correcting in some shape or form. you are molding your ideas, but they are all a bit foggy and indistinct. well now you focus down on each aspect and slowly figure out what is important and what is not. if you watch pro games you know that map pressure and good engagements with your units is important. it's important to have and idea of what your opponents next step will be. what units they can use to beat you in the foreseeable future, and what you need for units to combat it. then if something feels off, you go back and watch closely or have someone help you with it.
it's the whole idea of having expectations or personal bias with something in the game. could be a game idea, could be an opinion of yourself, anything. then you have those expectations broken, forcing you to change your stance or waking you up to the idea that you are wrong. usually all it takes is to lose, but seemingly many people don`t want even that to happen. it`s like starting to gamble, but wanting to avoid all the pitfalls of being a beginner. you can`t and you`ll make silly mistakes that you might not even notice for years and years, some things you really have to experience (more often for some) and set your expectations realistically.
i know as a more experienced player that all you need to get practicing is a game in mind. it`s like taking an outfit to a boutique and asking for help. you ask for help on a discord, or here by posting the game or one of your replays. you ask, ``who is this player? what is this build called? what is important to focus on in this style? what is currently strong against this style? i feel X but where did my game fall apart?" and you will receive help. that is your luxury for being part of a community. you can't just have the ideal videos laid out in playlist form, caters to someone like you, has perfect pacing in each video, and touches on the exact problems that you're faced with. what you're looking for is content that will help you flex your curiosity within the game, rather than guides for winning in a game you can barely play. this would all be demanding work, essentially for free, for a game in which outside of korea, nobody makes money doing.
Any newcomer should probably play the full campaing blind. The reason is to learn the basics of the game the way in any game: the campaign starts slow and lets you understand most of the basics of the game.
Any competitive game that has its own rules and specific skills are required in PvP will be a nightmare to a newcomer.
Think of any game that has a competitive scene: Counter strike, LoL, DOta 2, Heros of the storm, overwatch, starcraft.... If you tried to just GO IN and play you are gonna get destroyed.
Thats why there are tutorials, campaigns, vdeos on youtube... but it will still take a long time to get good at them.
most people dont remember this but if you would take your average B-A pladder ranked player today, and put them in 2005, they would most likely be close to the top in the world due to simple knowledge of the game.
If you are coming 5,10,20 years later than anyone else, you need sto srtat at the begining and try to catch up. The good news is that due to first person vods and streams you can learn at an increasing rate, but it will still take time.
On September 15 2018 23:35 iloveav wrote: most people dont remember this but if you would take your average B-A pladder ranked player today, and put them in 2005, they would most likely be close to the top in the world due to simple knowledge of the game.
Is this the state of Starcraft Remastered? Before analyzing the merit of making tutorials to help other people get into this beautiful game we instead get to have a discussion of whether or not it's possible to monetize that content outside of Korea?
High five to any content creator that steps out in the modern youtube-space to make videos for his passion rather than whatever is guaranteed to hit a minimum threshold of returns of viewers.
The thing about Brood War content is that high quality content is collected over the years and handed down like a family heirloom. Someone might not be watching your video and telling you how great it is this week, but months down the road some noob might just be loving every minute as he desperately tries to get a handle on BW.
On September 15 2018 23:35 iloveav wrote: Any newcomer should probably play the full campaing blind. The reason is to learn the basics of the game the way in any game: the campaign starts slow and lets you understand most of the basics of the game.
Any competitive game that has its own rules and specific skills are required in PvP will be a nightmare to a newcomer.
Think of any game that has a competitive scene: Counter strike, LoL, DOta 2, Heros of the storm, overwatch, starcraft.... If you tried to just GO IN and play you are gonna get destroyed.
Thats why there are tutorials, campaigns, vdeos on youtube... but it will still take a long time to get good at them.
most people dont remember this but if you would take your average B-A pladder ranked player today, and put them in 2005, they would most likely be close to the top in the world due to simple knowledge of the game.
If you are coming 5,10,20 years later than anyone else, you need sto srtat at the begining and try to catch up. The good news is that due to first person vods and streams you can learn at an increasing rate, but it will still take time.
Trying to catch up? You dont have to catch up, you simply have to play against people on your skill level
On September 16 2018 02:27 kaboombaby wrote: Is this the state of Starcraft Remastered? Before analyzing the merit of making tutorials to help other people get into this beautiful game we instead get to have a discussion of whether or not it's possible to monetize that content outside of Korea?
High five to any content creator that steps out in the modern youtube-space to make videos for his passion rather than whatever is guaranteed to hit a minimum threshold of returns of viewers.
The thing about Brood War content is that high quality content is collected over the years and handed down like a family heirloom. Someone might not be watching your video and telling you how great it is this week, but months down the road some noob might just be loving every minute as he desperately tries to get a handle on BW.
That's how I felt watching L_Master's noob tutorials. They were excellent in terms of content quality but they did not have many views at that time. Now the views count has increased a bit, but regardless they were very helpful to me to even get started with the game.
There is currently a female team league organized by firebathero and Piano with many 100ish APM and non-pro female players that can be relevant content for F players. Cadenzie is streaming it now.
On September 17 2018 05:04 Cryoc wrote: I watched some VODs from FBH and stumbled over this nice tutorial for starcraft beginners. It has English subtitles.
Wish i had seen this much earlier. Great content, thanks for linking it. Are there any other videos by him like this? I'm looking through his stuff but it's all korean
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
Like i said, it's just from lack of knowledge. That APM comes natural to me. I never understood how some players have anything less than that because even if i tried to purposely lower my APM, it's physically impossible.
Fastest and "normal" maps are played 2 completely different ways. Fastest, we don't use much of hot keys except for stuff like templar drops. Most of the actions are done manually where as you guys might be more mechanically involved.
What we might use to counter X unit on fastest isn't the same as what you guys use. For example, in TvP, vultres + mines and tanks are used vs protoss on your map where as we use medics/marine/tanks. Mines are never used, ever. Same goes for just about any other m/u. Zerg doesn't use mutas vs terran, they use hydras guardians and lurkers. Only time we use mutas is to main hunt. TvT is usually a camp fest, whoever can rush bcs//wraiths the quickest usually wins this exchange. PvP is usually just a templar drop battle. Pretty much, my point is, our gameplay is COMPLETELY different to the way you guys play, it's almost like im playing a different game.
What i have learned on fastest doesn't even remotely apply to "normal" maps.
With that being said, i think with some guidance, i could pick up these maps in about a week or 2.
On September 17 2018 05:04 Cryoc wrote: I watched some VODs from FBH and stumbled over this nice tutorial for starcraft beginners. It has English subtitles.
Wish i had seen this much earlier. Great content, thanks for linking it. Are there any other videos by him like this? I'm looking through his stuff but it's all korean
You can find all his VODs with English subs by searching "eng" in his youtube channel. I just clicked on some of those videos and watched the beginning to find out the topic. I saw maybe like 1-2 translated videos aimed at beginners when I skimped through some of these. Most videos seem to be weird builds and cheeses.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
Like i said, it's just from lack of knowledge. That APM comes natural to me. I never understood how some players have anything less than that because even if i tried to purposely lower my APM, it's physically impossible.
Fastest and "normal" maps are played 2 completely different ways. Fastest, we don't use much of hot keys except for stuff like templar drops. Most of the actions are done manually where as you guys might be more mechanically involved.
What we might use to counter X unit on fastest isn't the same as what you guys use. For example, in TvP, vultres + mines and tanks are used vs protoss on your map where as we use medics/marine/tanks. Mines are never used, ever. Same goes for just about any other m/u. Zerg doesn't use mutas vs terran, they use hydras guardians and lurkers. Only time we use mutas is to main hunt. TvT is usually a camp fest, whoever can rush bcs//wraiths the quickest usually wins this exchange. PvP is usually just a templar drop battle. Pretty much, my point is, our gameplay is COMPLETELY different to the way you guys play, it's almost like im playing a different game.
What i have learned on fastest doesn't even remotely apply to "normal" maps.
With that being said, i think with some guidance, i could pick up these maps in about a week or 2.
what I am saying is that your problems is not of gameplay and army composition. A good fastest knowlage and 200+ APM should make you at least D rank.
Or, in the worst case scenario, you can be F rank for 1-2 week after you start playing the normal maps.
But there is no way that you can be F rank with 200+ apm for more than that time and blame the wrong hotkey usage or bad army composition.
Regular BW is about getting more bases and spend your money. On what you spend it is less important.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
Like i said, it's just from lack of knowledge. That APM comes natural to me. I never understood how some players have anything less than that because even if i tried to purposely lower my APM, it's physically impossible.
Fastest and "normal" maps are played 2 completely different ways. Fastest, we don't use much of hot keys except for stuff like templar drops. Most of the actions are done manually where as you guys might be more mechanically involved.
What we might use to counter X unit on fastest isn't the same as what you guys use. For example, in TvP, vultres + mines and tanks are used vs protoss on your map where as we use medics/marine/tanks. Mines are never used, ever. Same goes for just about any other m/u. Zerg doesn't use mutas vs terran, they use hydras guardians and lurkers. Only time we use mutas is to main hunt. TvT is usually a camp fest, whoever can rush bcs//wraiths the quickest usually wins this exchange. PvP is usually just a templar drop battle. Pretty much, my point is, our gameplay is COMPLETELY different to the way you guys play, it's almost like im playing a different game.
What i have learned on fastest doesn't even remotely apply to "normal" maps.
With that being said, i think with some guidance, i could pick up these maps in about a week or 2.
what I am saying is that your problems is not of gameplay and army composition. A good fastest knowlage and 200+ APM should make you at least D rank.
Or, in the worst case scenario, you can be F rank for 1-2 week after you start playing the normal maps.
But there is no way that you can be F rank with 200+ apm for more than that time and blame the wrong hotkey usage or bad army composition.
Regular BW is about getting more bases and spend your money. On what you spend it is less important.
APM is not that difficult to get you do understand that right? It's literally just spam, Ive seen players with less than 100 defeat players with 200 + by a long stretch just from knowing how to play. We have a fastest league where this guy with about 80-100 APM was dominating players with over 250 APM with ease season after season after season in multiple leagues.
Knowing a good rotation between making units and building scvs and attacking is much better than spamming for the sake of spamming. And there was no one who knew this better than the person I'm talking about. Starcraft players often are under the impression that APM = skill level. Thats a terrible thing to teach new players.
On September 12 2018 07:00 voltz_sc2 wrote: I think Jaedong has a video for F ranked players that someone gave English subtitles, on YouTube. I found that helpful to learn standard play.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
Like i said, it's just from lack of knowledge. That APM comes natural to me. I never understood how some players have anything less than that because even if i tried to purposely lower my APM, it's physically impossible.
Fastest and "normal" maps are played 2 completely different ways. Fastest, we don't use much of hot keys except for stuff like templar drops. Most of the actions are done manually where as you guys might be more mechanically involved.
What we might use to counter X unit on fastest isn't the same as what you guys use. For example, in TvP, vultres + mines and tanks are used vs protoss on your map where as we use medics/marine/tanks. Mines are never used, ever. Same goes for just about any other m/u. Zerg doesn't use mutas vs terran, they use hydras guardians and lurkers. Only time we use mutas is to main hunt. TvT is usually a camp fest, whoever can rush bcs//wraiths the quickest usually wins this exchange. PvP is usually just a templar drop battle. Pretty much, my point is, our gameplay is COMPLETELY different to the way you guys play, it's almost like im playing a different game.
What i have learned on fastest doesn't even remotely apply to "normal" maps.
With that being said, i think with some guidance, i could pick up these maps in about a week or 2.
what I am saying is that your problems is not of gameplay and army composition. A good fastest knowlage and 200+ APM should make you at least D rank.
Or, in the worst case scenario, you can be F rank for 1-2 week after you start playing the normal maps.
But there is no way that you can be F rank with 200+ apm for more than that time and blame the wrong hotkey usage or bad army composition.
Regular BW is about getting more bases and spend your money. On what you spend it is less important.
APM is not that difficult to get you do understand that right? It's literally just spam, Ive seen players with less than 100 defeat players with 200 + by a long stretch just from knowing how to play. We have a fastest league where this guy with about 80-100 APM was dominating players with over 250 APM with ease season after season after season in multiple leagues.
Knowing a good rotation between making units and building scvs and attacking is much better than spamming for the sake of spamming. And there was no one who knew this better than the person I'm talking about. Starcraft players often are under the impression that APM = skill level. Thats a terrible thing to teach new players.
Pretty sure the implication and assumption is that with 200 APM you have at least around 100eAPM. Obviously no one is talking about people who send a scouting probe on hotkey 1 then hold down the 1 key to hit 1000 APM for the first 2 minutes then it averages out to 200, or a person who just does 123123123123123123123123123 over and over without actually doing anything.
I agree that telling people to "just get 200 APM" is bad advice, but if you notice that no one actually said that. You're fighting ghosts. ajmbek is saying that with knowledge of unit interactions and basic fundamentals from Fastest, along with decent mechanics, you shouldn't be stuck in F. That's it.
I think this videos are a perfect example of what I said earlier, when I said that progamer strategies might not be the best for noobs, especially Jaedong's ZvP video. The opponent actually killed off Jaedong's natural and made it into his main, and with a four base economy behind it! Of course Jaedong still won, because he's a pro playing against some schmuck, but still. He only survived because he could massively out-micro the opponent whenever he needed to. An actual F-rank player, in that sort of situation, would have died 100%.
I liked Effort's videos a lot better, because they showed strategies that were actually practical for an F-rank player to execute. Like for ZvT he showed early +1 carapace zerglings, or a straight rush into ultras. Those are not pro strategies at all, but they work much better than expecting a noob to execute perfect muta micro to get the fastest possible defilers, which seems to be the basis of a lot of pro zerg ZvT strategies.
i think i can win all F rank ZvT almost just with zerglings. And i am not a good player. It is really not much about what strategy to use and what units to build... you just need to make them and use them.
The first biggest problems i have seen with noobs is that they do not know what to do with the inits. They are too passive and they just "wait to die".
Of course a better player can say sort of the same for me, but that is how i feel.
Sounds like me lol
I generally build units and have a pretty good macro but have no clue what to do and when i do make a move people seem to just counter one of my bases which mostly always losses me the game.
That is because you spend too much time trying to practice. Making probes/scvs non stop and spending is a good exercyse for someane that is at 1500mmr and wants to be at 1700. But for an F rank it is much different. You had firstly to understand the game. When you can attack. What your opponent is trying to do. What should you be doing ... it is much more about thinking than speed and execution.
I am really interest in knowing what is your apm... If it is more than 60-70 that means then the 50% of what you are doing is wrong. In this situation you really do not need to set up your hotkeys. You just need to understand what is happeining in the game.
It's not horribly bad since i come from a fastest map background. On average it's 200-250 APM. In "normal" maps that aren't fastest, it probably drops down to 150-180 and that might be from not knowing what to do once I have accumulated an army.
I feel as APM really doesn't mean anything when you have no idea what you're doing. Often get completely destroyed by players with less than 80 APM.
Then try to play with less APM. It means you will spend less time just clicking and more thinking.
Like i said, it's just from lack of knowledge. That APM comes natural to me. I never understood how some players have anything less than that because even if i tried to purposely lower my APM, it's physically impossible.
Fastest and "normal" maps are played 2 completely different ways. Fastest, we don't use much of hot keys except for stuff like templar drops. Most of the actions are done manually where as you guys might be more mechanically involved.
What we might use to counter X unit on fastest isn't the same as what you guys use. For example, in TvP, vultres + mines and tanks are used vs protoss on your map where as we use medics/marine/tanks. Mines are never used, ever. Same goes for just about any other m/u. Zerg doesn't use mutas vs terran, they use hydras guardians and lurkers. Only time we use mutas is to main hunt. TvT is usually a camp fest, whoever can rush bcs//wraiths the quickest usually wins this exchange. PvP is usually just a templar drop battle. Pretty much, my point is, our gameplay is COMPLETELY different to the way you guys play, it's almost like im playing a different game.
What i have learned on fastest doesn't even remotely apply to "normal" maps.
With that being said, i think with some guidance, i could pick up these maps in about a week or 2.
what I am saying is that your problems is not of gameplay and army composition. A good fastest knowlage and 200+ APM should make you at least D rank.
Or, in the worst case scenario, you can be F rank for 1-2 week after you start playing the normal maps.
But there is no way that you can be F rank with 200+ apm for more than that time and blame the wrong hotkey usage or bad army composition.
Regular BW is about getting more bases and spend your money. On what you spend it is less important.
APM is not that difficult to get you do understand that right? It's literally just spam, Ive seen players with less than 100 defeat players with 200 + by a long stretch just from knowing how to play. We have a fastest league where this guy with about 80-100 APM was dominating players with over 250 APM with ease season after season after season in multiple leagues.
Knowing a good rotation between making units and building scvs and attacking is much better than spamming for the sake of spamming. And there was no one who knew this better than the person I'm talking about. Starcraft players often are under the impression that APM = skill level. Thats a terrible thing to teach new players.
Pretty sure the implication and assumption is that with 200 APM you have at least around 100eAPM. Obviously no one is talking about people who send a scouting probe on hotkey 1 then hold down the 1 key to hit 1000 APM for the first 2 minutes then it averages out to 200, or a person who just does 123123123123123123123123123 over and over without actually doing anything.
I agree that telling people to "just get 200 APM" is bad advice, but if you notice that no one actually said that. You're fighting ghosts. ajmbek is saying that with knowledge of unit interactions and basic fundamentals from Fastest, along with decent mechanics, you shouldn't be stuck in F. That's it.
Any new educational videos since then? Last thing I remember were JY shows (which were awesome and in depth, but not enough of them). What about now?
It's new meta for TvZ (goliaths), ZvT - 2 hatch, ZvP 9-7-3-4, etc. Nobody explains this stuff in depth now, Korean videos are not always accessible, we don't have Day9 or JY shows anymore. I think there's still a gap for this type of content in Brood War, we have a lot of great tournaments but not much of educational videos on some specific topic. LMaster is also back, but no more educational videos for noobs. Just want to remind that demand is still there! Some people lack the game knowledge still.
It's only in Bulgarian but recently started doing StarCraft educational videos. I'm trying to cover the basics one by one until it gets advanced.
There is also added documentation to each episode which links to different tutorials, videos, replays, and etc. Also invited some of the prominent Bulgarian players - old school and not so much - Beast (aka Christian), Zelias, Technics, Lamer.
On October 01 2019 19:17 QuadroX wrote: Sorry for bumping the old topic.
Any new educational videos since then? Last thing I remember were JY shows (which were awesome and in depth, but not enough of them). What about now?
It's new meta for TvZ (goliaths), ZvT - 2 hatch, ZvP 9-7-3-4, etc. Nobody explains this stuff in depth now, Korean videos are not always accessible, we don't have Day9 or JY shows anymore. I think there's still a gap for this type of content in Brood War, we have a lot of great tournaments but not much of educational videos on some specific topic. LMaster is also back, but no more educational videos for noobs. Just want to remind that demand is still there! Some people lack the game knowledge still.
Hi, i know it doesnt directly answer your question but a fun way to learn is also to find a practice partner around your level and try different builds and counters. For example if you are t, find a z, and go goliath for like 5-10games in a row (and tell the z you ll do that too) and have him try and counter it. You can discuss during or after each game too. Practicing alone/on ladder only is difficult. If you re F/E you don't need larva or action s build to counter goliath, just find whatever works for you. Lmaster s discord can help with that.
Your question is mostly about this - when you eat dinner, you don't try to take the whole thing in one go and then chew it all at once, you need to take it in portion by portion and the portion need to be very small.
How do you apply that analogy to something you know nothing about and is, perhaps, too complex for you to properly segment into manageable portions on your own? I'm sure somebody has mentioned Ver's guide (sorry if I wrote the name wrong) and the other main brood war guide - you can find these guides in the strategy section. I've found them very useful for that purpose, among others.
I may be wrong but it appears you are not very familiar with deliberate practice (most people aren't). In that case, I'd suggest you to read up on it and taking it really slow. It's a huge deal if you can get yourself to do it and do it well.
Aside from t hat, amazingly useful contents from Day9 on how to improve: - (Newbie Tuesday: How to Learn and Improve) - (Day[9] Daily #309 - The Right and Wrong Way to Learn)
It really doesn't matter for what game these are, these happen to be for SC2 but it could be for command & conquer and you would find them pretty much just as useful and relevant. These are a broad sketch and practical ideas on how to improve in general.
If you watch the right and wrong way specifically, it may also be very relevant for you, since you seem to have an issue with getting confused and lost. This explains why you get confused and lost. Although, from what I recall it's a more to the learning strategy side and doing it from one, general understanding idea for match up rather than 100's of spread out strategy ideas. That one is more to the strategy side, as opposed to the deliberate practice issue.
Overall, I'd suggest that you most definitely suffer from repeating two errors over and over that will always make you confused and lost - 1) taking on too much at once, 2) failing to take it slow at first and trying to master an element too quickly (probably way, way, way, way too quickly).
Everyone gets off track at times but often, this is a good thing. It lets you fix much more important issues than you previously thought you had.
Failures, sometimes sizable, lengthy frustrations and getting stuck are pretty much always part of the journey and I don't think there's really a point where these stop, at least that I know of. These are integral to the whole journey. Where one gets depends on how one responds and what one does with them. Good thing is, you've shown perseverance and have put some effort to seek out the help you need instead of just giving up or bashing your head against the wall, in hopes it would somehow work out eventually.
I wish you push through and have a more rewarding journey of improving after than point.