[ASL6] Semis Preview - Two of a Kind
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia18980 Posts
On October 20 2018 11:25 Essbee wrote: TvT between flash and last would be <3 The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On October 20 2018 21:59 BisuDagger wrote: The problem is that they practically mirror each other in TvT. Flash vs Fantasy was amazing cause Fantasy's strengths are so different. Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 20 2018 22:18 r33k wrote: Fantasy had absolutely zero strengths in TvT he was completely dogshit in the matchup, Skyhigh wiping the floor with him twice was all you need to see about the one trick pony's TvT. That is not true. I'll paraphrase some posts about the topic I've read elsewhere. There are key fundamentals separate from decision making you need to hone for each of the match-ups. For protoss-versus-protoss match-up, for example, your ability to get advantages with superior dragoon and reaver micro-management plays a significantly large enough role in being able to find success within the match-up. It is why Mini has such high win rates in his mirror match-up in online sponsored matches, because his micro-management is more crisp than most of the other protoss players. It is most magnified in zerg-versus-zerg, where mastery over units such as zerglings, mutalisks, and scourges play an essential role in deciding the victor. Being able to abuse siege tank range, and playing the game of inches with siege tanks was an ability that was found in many of the terran-versus-terran virtuosos. Flash, a terran-versus-terran beast of the highest calibre, was not blessed with such an ability (at least compared to his loftly status). His strengths lie elsewhere. It is why he struggled versus firebathero initially (watch his famous comeback versus firebathero on Neo Medusa, he loses most of the siege tank micro-management duels, which is why he ended up with a huge deficit in the first place). It is something Last abused when he defeated Flash 3:0 in the quarter-finals of ASL Season 1. When Flash lost to FanTaSy, it wasn't due to his poor game plan, it usually resulted from having inferior troop management, and losing more ground than expected from these micro-management duels that FanTaSy prefered to take. FanTaSy struggled to find advantages against mechanically sound players who was able to keep up with his game of inches involving siege tanks. It is why he tended to struggle more versus players like Light, instead of a more cerebral, but less mechanically sound players such as Sea. Dismissing FanTaSy's terran-versus-terran abilities is like saying he only performed well in the terran-versus-protoss match-up because he abused the playmaking abilities of vultures, instead of focusing on more cerebral methods of winning the game. It doesn't matter which way you win as long as you can get results. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6292 Posts
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Wonk
546 Posts
As for shuttle vs. Flash, er, I think you guys might be spot on. | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
On October 21 2018 00:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: patiently waiting effort to clean once for all the crap u guys are writting about him.just cuz in some article someone mentioned that chaotic muta now this is the only thing this monster player is capable of . .The Ronaldinho of starcraft will prove you wrong. Lol that’s the biggest fucking stretch I’ve ever read in my life. Effort is more like the kylin mbappe of sc, the weird looking guy who has talent but is less dominant then top of the top. Boxer is the rhonaldinho of sc, gutsy visionary founding father who shaped the sport in deeveloping times. Maybe effort is the eonzerg of Korean sc. | ||
Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On October 21 2018 00:22 Letmelose wrote: That is not true. I'll paraphrase some posts about the topic I've read elsewhere. There are key fundamentals separate from decision making you need to hone for each of the match-ups. For protoss-versus-protoss match-up, for example, your ability to get advantages with superior dragoon and reaver micro-management plays a significantly large enough role in being able to find success within the match-up. It is why Mini has such high win rates in his mirror match-up in online sponsored matches, because his micro-management is more crisp than most of the other protoss players. It is most magnified in zerg-versus-zerg, where mastery over units such as zerglings, mutalisks, and scourges play an essential role in deciding the victor. Being able to abuse siege tank range, and playing the game of inches with siege tanks was an ability that was found in many of the terran-versus-terran virtuosos. Flash, a terran-versus-terran beast of the highest calibre, was not blessed with such an ability (at least compared to his loftly status). His strengths lie elsewhere. It is why he struggled versus firebathero initially (watch his famous comeback versus firebathero on Neo Medusa, he loses most of the siege tank micro-management duels, which is why he ended up with a huge deficit in the first place). It is something Last abused when he defeated Flash 3:0 in the quarter-finals of ASL Season 1. When Flash lost to FanTaSy, it wasn't due to his poor game plan, it usually resulted from having inferior troop management, and losing more ground than expected from these micro-management duels that FanTaSy prefered to take. FanTaSy struggled to find advantages against mechanically sound players who was able to keep up with his game of inches involving siege tanks. It is why he tended to struggle more versus players like Light, instead of a more cerebral, but less mechanically sound players such as Sea. Dismissing FanTaSy's terran-versus-terran abilities is like saying he only performed well in the terran-versus-protoss match-up because he abused the playmaking abilities of vultures, instead of focusing on more cerebral methods of winning the game. It doesn't matter which way you win as long as you can get results. If Flash was not good at abusing siege tank range, but was a TvT player of the highest calibre, then where did his strengths lie? Are there games out there which are good examples of those strengths? And how would those strengths compare against Last's skillset? | ||
Yanokabo
268 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On October 21 2018 09:23 Shady Sands wrote: If Flash was not good at abusing siege tank range, but was a TvT player of the highest calibre, then where did his strengths lie? Are there games out there which are good examples of those strengths? And how would those strengths compare against Last's skillset? I am of the opinion that Flash's make-up as a player suits the terran-versus-terran match-up the best, regardless of his actual results. It is why the clan master of the By. clan said Flash's best match-up was terran-versus-terran, why Flash annihilated top terran professionals during practice even before his debut, why his longest winning streak as a professional happens to be found in the terran-versus-terran match-up, and why his win rate in the mirror match-up in online sponsored matches since May 2017 (records before that are quite hard to find) are higher than his other two match-ups. It is the quintessential Flash match-up. This is, in my opinion, due what qualities the terran-versus-terran match-up tends to reward. Flash is able to process given information and make decisions faster and more accurately than any player that has ever existed. This is a trait that is most important in the terran-versus-terran match-up, which is in my opinion, the most strategically complex match-up. Even during his 0-3 defeat against FanTaSy, I don't necessarily Flash made bad decisions to get into disadvantageous positions (in the first game for example, Flash had secured 5 gas bases in comparison to merely 3 gas bases from FanTaSy, but was unable to keep up with FanTaSy's troop movement and micro-management), but was somewhat complacent over how FanTaSy could overturn the situation with his unit mastery and utilization. It is how Flash usually loses games in general, where he underestimates the playmaking variables of certain key units, due to his general tendency to focus much more on decision making than playmaking with unit mastery. I think I've read an interview back when Flash was a professional, where he mentioned that he had difficulties mastering small scale terran-versus-terran micro-management duels, but can't seem to find it (most of the interviews from those days are lost anyways). Stylistically speaking, someone like FanTaSy stylistically struggles more versus the likes of Last (regardless of results), because the playmaking part that FanTaSy tended to rely on is thwarted more easily, because Last puts a little more emphasis on troop management. It does not mean Last is any better, because this is just a stylistic rock-scissor-paper type situation, where the dynamic between two players does not necesarrily speak for their overall capabilities. The dude that gives the overall best player in the scene a lot of trouble isn't necessarily the second best player overall, while a player that gives the overall best player in the scene zero difficulties may actually have superior results against the rest of the field. It is just how competition works. Take their shortkey preferences for example. Last uses 6,7 for his command centre hotkeys, whereas Flash uses 3. This means that Last has the upper hand in comparison to Flash during initial micro-management duels soley from the hotkey set-up. Flash uses all of 4,5,6,7, and 8 hotkeys for factory production, while Last has to look at his base rather than just hammering away at his keyboards in order to keep up with the unit production. This means that the set-up is in favour of Flash once the mid-game hits. This is a stylistic preference meant to cater towards the strengths of the players in question. Flash does not look to playmake by getting more out of his units than what is usually expected from them, he wants the superior set-up. If both Flash and Last had a duel of who can execute a fixed build order with the exact same sequence of set plays over the course of the match more cleanly, I'd choose Last every single time. It is why Flash dubbed Last as AlphaGo, when Flash himself actually resembles AlphaGo more in a lot of ways (in terms of perfect decision making), due to Last's clean robotic execution. I never thought of Flash as someone who was fantastic at executing certain plays picture perfectly, but it is not what makes him so special. | ||
RxMidnight
United States251 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
418 Posts
i fear for flash now | ||
crsh
2 Posts
I like the predictions they make, because they are always wrong. | ||
Kurao
215 Posts
I don't blame the 3-0 prediction for Last, but what a sick series by EffOrt. Game 3 was already a masterclass macro game, and the burrow play in game 5 really sealed the deal. FlaSh vs EffOrt Korean Air OSL finals rematch should be sick | ||
arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
Poor Flash, he probably doesn't know what's coming | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
On October 21 2018 00:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: patiently waiting effort to clean once for all the crap u guys are writting about him.just cuz in some article someone mentioned that chaotic muta now this is the only thing this monster player is capable of . .The Ronaldinho of starcraft will prove you wrong. High five man! What a sick series today. | ||
StarscreamG1
Portugal1652 Posts
I'm the guy that comes and says Last TvZ is always godlike. But I was really hoping at least a 3-1 prediction, not a 3-0 | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia18980 Posts
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AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
I hope that TL will have the human resources to make ASL - KSL post series analysis. KSL group A was fantastic too :D | ||
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