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On January 01 2008 08:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 08:40 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why. So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this? + Show Spoiler +lol I'd be annoyed if I lost to someone using that keyboard too. But Iccup launcher can't detect keyboards I assume it can detect Keycraft though. Even if it can't, they said it's forbidden.
yea, it's forbidden I only looked for it in the ladder rules and not in the forum.
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On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it.
I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^.
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opps this topic is dead. wateva the fuck i'm using it for iccup and none of you can make me stop it. ^^
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Switzerland348 Posts
On January 01 2008 21:20 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it. I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. Actually, it does augment your APM. Now, I agree that it sucks that different SC language-versions have different hotkeys, and I'm all for customizable hotkeys. Blizzard didn't include it though. End of discussion.
Oh and don't tell me it doesn't give you an unfair advantage. Playing with less stress is an advantage, incase you hadn't noticed.
To me, it's no different than using hacks. But don't beat yourself over it. Unless you're playing competitively, it doesn't matter.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
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On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
Pretty much sums it up. If you want to play with keycraft, start your own keycraft-ladder and play with your keycrafting friends. If you want to play on iCCup, learn to play without keycraft like everybody else.
PS: French, German and other localized layouts are generally a lot poorer than English. I don't care if somebody eeks out a tiny advantage by using localized versions.
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On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?.
you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 02 2008 10:05 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it. Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?. you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable. You're messing up Blizzard's intentions (which nobody cares about now since StarCraft is living it's own life for a long time) with the de facto standard of StarCraft competetive play. In every sport, there's a standard for player gear. You can't go play football wearing knuckles, you can't play baseball with a metal bat, you can't play SC on LAN with a customizable keyboard. You can't play competetive SC with external applications (unless the host makes their use mandatory like the PGT/pplug case).
And it does help win games. You're simply flat out wrong here, I already explained why and I won't waste my time chewing the food for you and explaining it again. Auto-spread is neglible too. But I won't hesitate for a second before accusing anyone using oblivion of cheating.
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On January 01 2008 22:22 fgsvsd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 21:20 haduken wrote:On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it. I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. Actually, it does augment your APM. Now, I agree that it sucks that different SC language-versions have different hotkeys, and I'm all for customizable hotkeys. Blizzard didn't include it though. End of discussion. Oh and don't tell me it doesn't give you an unfair advantage. Playing with less stress is an advantage, incase you hadn't noticed. To me, it's no different than using hacks. But don't beat yourself over it. Unless you're playing competitively, it doesn't matter.
blizzard also didnt include reversable ramps and shit like we have nowadays in bw.
Switching your hotkeys around is fine, anyone who says otherwise is pretty retarded. Who cares if blizzard implimented it or not? Its an object in basically ANY game, you can always alter the controls. And no, just because they have an advantageous key in another language doesnt automatically give them some disadvantaged key to "balance it out" thats horrible logic. What ive wondered is at WCG finals if they have multiple versions of starcraft on the computer for players from other countries to use so they dont automatically have to use english hotkeys if they are used to playing on their native language version of starcraft.
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On January 01 2008 08:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 08:40 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why. So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this? + Show Spoiler +lol I'd be annoyed if I lost to someone using that keyboard too. But Iccup launcher can't detect keyboards I assume it can detect Keycraft though. Even if it can't, they said it's forbidden.
why would you be pissed that you lost to someone using that keyboard? Thats a pretty fucking lame.
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On January 03 2008 03:27 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2008 10:05 haduken wrote:On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it. Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?. you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable. You're messing up Blizzard's intentions (which nobody cares about now since StarCraft is living it's own life for a long time) with the de facto standard of StarCraft competetive play. In every sport, there's a standard for player gear. You can't go play football wearing knuckles, you can't play baseball with a metal bat, you can't play SC on LAN with a customizable keyboard. You can't play competetive SC with external applications (unless the host makes their use mandatory like the PGT/pplug case). And it does help win games. You're simply flat out wrong here, I already explained why and I won't waste my time chewing the food for you and explaining it again. Auto-spread is neglible too. But I won't hesitate for a second before accusing anyone using oblivion of cheating.
The only reason you have to worry about being able to use it or not at lans is because quite frequently starcraft admins are fucking stupid (at least here in USA) and its even a pain in the ass to load your mouse drivers. They basically are incompitent, it would be like forcing everyone who plays an FPS to use the same keys and mouse sensitivity.
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i guess u never used keycraft then. i was at my skill lv before using it and afterwards and since i don't know anyone else that improved significantly using it then maybe you can show someone to us?
You are trying to explain Blizzard's game design only in favor of your argument. that's double standard. remember when rally can only be done by pressing r? how can you argue that keycraft should not be allowed when the general competive community are not aware of it because of its relatively late introduction when everyone got used to the vanilla setup and now it's out of date and require significant intuition to make it work. hmm good reasoning there. btw stop comparing this to auto-spread, one automate the tasks for you, keycraft you still need to do everything yourself. reconfiguring the key setup make it easy but not so easy that you can do everything perfectly like a machine. the biggest point that you nay sayers haven't addressed yet is that keycraft doesn't alter game play and you see it as a hack? lol okay
Your whole argument is really centred on the point that because blizzard didn't make it in their original design then it is not legal when we all know the better (part of the reason why sc is so good is because players and the community make the effort to take the inititive)
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please don't try to dedicate to others what your opinion is of blizzard's intention because no one knows and we all know it wasn't their intention for sc to be alive after 10 years (they can dream but lets be real here)
did soccer rules, basketball rules, and other sports improve and change over the past? what of wgtour, pgtour, iccup? are they not an infrigement of the software rights of blizzard? hmm
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I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^.
How hard is it to type 0p? They keys are literally right next to each other. And yes, it does change your speed if suddenly all the keys you need to touch are right next to each other. I'm not the one losing games without editting the hotkeys, so you can forget about your last comment making any sense at all.
Like I said: I don't care if you want to edit the hotkeys for casual play. I like a challange, and I don't care if my opponent needs to change his setup to do that for me. What I do care about is when you want to find out who's better (ie: competition), someone should have to use the standard setups. If I believed a foreign version of BW with a different hotkey setup would make me play better, and I were very competetive, I might install it. It's an accepted standard. But TBH, the English setup is probably the best standard setup out there, or someone would have said something.
In short: You have no right to claim you're better than another player if you use a handicap. The true spirit of competition means all contestants start on equal grounds.
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On January 03 2008 04:28 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. How hard is it to type 0p? They keys are literally right next to each other. And yes, it does change your speed if suddenly all the keys you need to touch are right next to each other. I'm not the one losing games without editting the hotkeys, so you can forget about your last comment making any sense at all. Like I said: I don't care if you want to edit the hotkeys for casual play. I like a challange, and I don't care if my opponent needs to change his setup to do that for me. What I do care about is when you want to find out who's better (ie: competition), someone should have to use the standard setups. If I believed a foreign version of BW with a different hotkey setup would make me play better, and I were very competetive, I might install it. It's an accepted standard. But TBH, the English setup is probably the best standard setup out there, or someone would have said something. In short: You have no right to claim you're better than another player if you use a handicap. The true spirit of competition means all contestants start on equal grounds.
Guess everyone better use the same mouse sensitivty and only be able to change the scroll since blizzard didnt put sensitivity into the game.
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On January 03 2008 04:54 Sadist wrote: Guess everyone better use the same mouse sensitivty and only be able to change the scroll since blizzard didnt put sensitivity into the game.
qf mega t
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Changing hotkeys and changing mouse sensitivity are not the same thing, moron.
+ Show Spoiler +I call your scarecrow argument, and raise you ad hominem.
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On January 03 2008 05:25 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Changing hotkeys and changing mouse sensitivity are not the same thing, moron. + Show Spoiler +I call your scarecrow argument, and raise you ad hominem.
Yes they are, you are changing the game to your personal settings.
You can do this in any videogame, even in nintendo games you could switch B with A and A with B.
Imagine a fighting game where you couldnt change the controls? How bullshit would that be.
Its exactly the same thing. Its not changing the game, its customizing the controls.
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where can i dl Keycraft? any link would be appreciated -)
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i don't understand how this is a hack at all...it's not giving you any advantage imo you still have to push the button to make it work its really not fair to this person since he has done it one way for so long and now he has to relearn everything...but i guess if its banned its banned
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