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On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ?
but it doesn't run in the background, doesn't give you more information about the opponent or something.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 05 2008 00:27 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ? but it doesn't run in the background, doesn't give you more information about the opponent or something. Whatever, an iCCup admin specifically said it's not allowed. If you want to fight it, go ahead. I'm done with this thread.
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technically it is not allowed because it is indeed a third party program that changes your game from the original version to your edited one. they shouldn't give a shit about it though cause it doesn't really give you an advantage.
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There are gaming keyboards that come with remappable keys. And I'm not aware of anyone being banned for using them. It seems silly to ban a program which only gives a standard dell keyboard the same feature. But it's iccup's house so iccup's rules.
If you don't want to spend the money on something like the Razer Tarantula, you can fix the keys yourself with winmpq and the old gosugamers guide. Then you don't have to use a 3rd party program like keycraft while playing iccup, but can still change your hotkeys.
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If it doesnt give an unfair advantage, why did the guy lose 7 games in a row without it and why does it make a D- player a D player? Poeple who have lower skils, are supposed to deal with cheaters? Only progamers can play fair games?
Seriously, I dont play much recently and when I come back to Starcraft I sometimes play vs pubs to warm up and I'm coming to the conclusion that like 50% of Starcraft players are cheating in some way. The ways to cheat seem to be endless, starting from "I dont scout vs random and always know what you do", "I cant be starved, I got unlimited minerals", "UMS map is rigged" and now it's "I modified my keyboard, so my 60 apm hands > your 100 apm hands - even on ICCUP". Why is everyone bashing the D players? Cant we just play a fair game? Are we supposed to play 500 games to get to C to play fair games? -_-
Banning KeyCraft it's pretty questionable, because one can get one of these configurable keyboards, but if changing the game is forbidden, then dont change it please. Argueably you could buy the keyboard to change the layout (it will still be lame, but less people will do it, because the kids who cheat usually dont have the money/enough brain to do it).
I think there was a thread about this matter in the past and someone stated that Mondragon was forbidden to use the German keyboard layout somewhere (WCG? lan?) and I think that he now plays using the English keyboard layout.
If ICCUP is consistent with its policy they will just check for modified keys with the launcher. Keyboards are undetectable though (are they fair and is there any difference.. oh well... Id say that they are unfair too, because switching keys was not intended).
I also wonder if those who own the Italian/French versions of the game could somehow change it into the English version (there were some 3rd party tools - which are forbidden, but I wonder if it would be possible to install "English SC" using "other language" cd-key and then to play English SC using "non-English" CD).
PS. I think it would be interesting to see how many of you use KeyCraft. If you do use this program, please write it, because now I think that the proponents of it actually use it.
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I was going to point out the fact that you didn't address the issue of fairness with regards to banning modified hotkeys but not banning modified hotkeys as a part of a keyboard, which have exactly the same effect and should be treated the same allowed or banned, but then I saw you're Romanian.
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Some of you crying about it saying its unfair and shouldnt be allowed are fucking idiots.
Do you really believe blizzard put the hotkeys in their current arrangement to make the game more difficult? GTFO
they put them their because of the letters in the word in the language you are playing.
No purpose.
Most people dont know about KeyCraft which is why I think people are against it and stupid admins dont think it should be allowed. Like i said on a lan at WCG where ive been admins are incompetent so id be worried about using it and bringing it there because some places ive been barely let you touch the mouse settings let alone install your own.
Seriously, think about what you are saying for a fucking second.
PS that guy lost those games not because it helped him but because he was used to it. If i made you play left handed youd lose 7 games too.
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I'm gonna use starcraftkeychanger.exe instead, it's not banned on iccup.
all those iccup maps are made by third party editors, how about banning yourself now?
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On January 05 2008 01:12 Sadist wrote: Some of you crying about it saying its unfair and shouldnt be allowed are fucking idiots.
Do you really believe blizzard put the hotkeys in their current arrangement to make the game more difficult? GTFO
they put them their because of the letters in the word in the language you are playing.
No purpose.
Most people dont know about KeyCraft which is why I think people are against it and stupid admins dont think it should be allowed. Like i said on a lan at WCG where ive been admins are incompetent so id be worried about using it and bringing it there because some places ive been barely let you touch the mouse settings let alone install your own.
Seriously, think about what you are saying for a fucking second.
PS that guy lost those games not because it helped him but because he was used to it. If i made you play left handed youd lose 7 games too.
word
btw not all leagues ban this. i remember pgtour even promoted its use. when keycraft was introduced, no one said anything about hacking, it was an ingenius program that solved alot of people's problems.
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On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ? And i said anything about keycraft?
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Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
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Personally, i wouldnt mind if my opponent played with keycraft. It should be made legit in my opinion.
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On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
That's plain wrong. Don't tell obvious lies.
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On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
GTFO
all its doing is changing hotkeys
its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
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On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. This might be the simplest analogy, yet a good one. I like it.
The people that are against it would have better argument if the hotkeys werent language dependant. In their minds, some country probly has unfair advantage over the other. So instead of people having to deny their country and accept a new nationality just let them play in peace with the hotkeys that suit them.
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The people that are against it would have better argument if the hotkeys werent language dependant.
You're choosing to attack the weakest of the arguments put forward. The fact of the matter is, if I play someone using KeyCraft, I'm not using it myself, and he or she wins by a hair, he or she did not win because he or she is better than me. Sure, someone could get an unfair advantage by having a better keyboard and mouse too, but at least I'm forcing that loser to spend good money just to beat people at a random game. Fact is, most people are using the keyboard and mouse they'd be using if they didn't play games on the computer.
PS: If a competition allows it, I don't have any problem at all with people using KeyCraft. I'm just saying that when a competition doesn't, don't bitch, because we all told you why.
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On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
[Oblivion MBS]
GTFO
all its doing is changing the UI
its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
[Got to love analogy]
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On January 06 2008 02:24 Zherak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Oblivion MBS] GTFO all its doing is changing the UI its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Got to love analogy]
MBS clearly breaks the limitation of being able to select only one building. Keycraft does not add anything out of the ordinary. Mere change of which button you need to press.
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In short:
There are a number of hurdles present in StarCraft, for instance fog of war, playing versus random, playing with finite resources, dealing with SBS and a maximum of 12 units selected at a time, stupidcasting and so on. The default hotkey-arrangement is yet another one of these hurdles.
Removing any of these hurdles make it easier for you to play the game. We all agree that removing fog of war (MH) or SBS and selection caps (Oblivion) is cheating. There seems to be some discussion on whether changing the hotkey-arrangement is actually cheating or not.
It is obvious that a more optimal hotkey-arrangement is advantageous. This can be achieved with KeyCraft.
It is, however, nor for each and every individual player to decide what is cheating and what isn't. In the context of Iccup, their official rules dictates what is cheating and what is not. Whatever arguments you can present for Oblivion or KeyCraft do not really matter - a community cannot depend on every single player deciding which hurdles are intentional or part of the game and which are merely needless hindrances.
Who are you to decide that giving yourself an advantage with KeyCraft is not really cheating, or so small a cheat that it doesn't matter? How is this different form using Oblivion? Why, if you have decided to allow yourself to use KeyCraft, can't another player allow himself to use auto-mining?
Who, if not the ladder admins [Iccup adminds on Iccup, Blizzard on official servers], should be the ones to draw the line?
[PenguinPlug, which does not to my knowledge provide any advantages and does not bypass any hurdles, is thus a completely different matter.]
[Note: This is only an argument for why we should follow the rules in place, not for why KeyCraft should be disallowed. Myself, I think managing the stupid hotkeys is a great part of the game, but that is merely an opinion.]
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On January 06 2008 02:53 Lisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2008 02:24 Zherak wrote:On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Oblivion MBS] GTFO all its doing is changing the UI its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Got to love analogy] MBS clearly breaks the limitation of being able to select only one building. Keycraft does not add anything out of the ordinary. Mere change of which button you need to press.
KeyCraft clearly breaks the limitation of having to move your fucking left hand half a keyboard and accurately hit P every 10 seconds.
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