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I have been using Keycraft (programm thats allows to change hotkeys) for more than 2 years now and i just saw it'w forbidden on iccup, considered as a third party programm (so is apm live for eq).
My first point was not to have any advantage from it, it's a bit complicated but i learnt bw on english version , then had a new cd with french version and so i was never really used to any version so i made like a "mix" fra/eng hk with thoses i used the most . + I made many shortcuts on S , essentially all important powers like stim, siege, storm..etc
Some days ago when i saw it was forbidden i began to think if it was "hacky" or not. Personnally i don't think so, if u consider there are tons of bw versions with better or wors shortcuts and also some ppl can use very good mouses keyboard and customed keyboards.
Also i think i would have nearly exactly same control with english version if i was as used as i'm to my keys. Still it would take long "to relearn" english version and to break old automatisms.
I have always been a legit player , so i wanted your opinion about it, is this hacky or not?
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Belgium9937 Posts
DJEtterStyle does this too, and nobody is as hacky as undi. Ditch it
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51133 Posts
i reckon keycraft makes you a worser player, but thats just my opinion
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i think its a total preference thing, and doubt it makes you any worse at playing....
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It's not going to make you any worse but it's kind of lame. I had set it up to that many units functions were on T so I could siege and drop mines with the same button etc.
I felt like it wasn't fair because other people didn't know about it or didn't have the option immediately available to them to rebind their keys, so I stopped
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I use it... dunno if it makes me a better or worse player, it just feels better to build probe on s etc... And because it dont give you some kind of ingame advantage over your opponent it should'nt be considerd a hack imo...
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United States22883 Posts
It could give you an in game advantage if you did what lake described, or even just by putting all the keys close to each other. Moving "p" to the left side of the keyboard for a Toss player is the most obvious one.
it just feels better to build probe on s Of course, because hitting p is a pain in the ass when everything else is on the other side, BUT it's a pain in the ass for everyone. So you do get an advantage from doing that.
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that's a void point; just because everyone suffer the same doesn't mean that's starcraft's intention to make people suffer. i've always used keycraft sine like 4 years ago and i didn't have any problem with iccup.
imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean.
even after all these years i start to think the original key setting are really optimal because you need to use all the number keys for macro and micro, if you rebind all your keys to one side it makes your hand lazy. you will suffer in the long run.
and no it's not a hack when you consider the differnt keybinds for different language. if it was blizzard's intention to force the issue like the mass building selection then they would have introduced a standard for everyone.
so anyway you look at it, anti-keycrafters' argument just don't hold on. keycraft wasn't even made by a hacker, i thought it was made from guys from the same camp of bwprogrammers aka the jedis of bw programming.
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you could even get one of those keyboard that comes with its own remappers or even do what boxerd did, plug out the keys. you bypass the bw software completely while achieving the same thing. -_-
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On December 31 2007 23:57 haduken wrote:
even after all these years i start to think the original key setting are really optimal because you need to use all the number keys for macro and micro, if you rebind all your keys to one side it makes your hand lazy. you will suffer in the long run.
yes , ithink ur true , in fact it s just bad for multitask improvement since i m not used to put my finger everywhere so i think its the same.
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United States22883 Posts
You really don't think rebinding stuff like irradiate to QWER would give an advantage? I'd gladly take that. Or all of the defiler keys is a nice row together.
that's a void point; just because everyone suffer the same doesn't mean that's starcraft's intention to make people suffer. Everyone suffers by having to mine manually as well. We should stop the suffering!
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lol for all we know some guy with a italian version of bw have irradiate on W so is that an advantage you tell me?
you are trying to impose a standard for everyone when there is and was none. your only leverage is blizzard's lazyiness in implementing an official keycraft for starcraft like they did for war3. don't hate the players man, hate the game and hate blizzard!
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United States22883 Posts
So because they made a UI change in WC3, they meant for it in SC? I guess you just gave a vote for MBS.
Someone could buy the Italian version of BW to get an unfair advantage of Irradiate, but the chances of that happening are far, far less than someone using Keycraft. Yeah, MBS is a much bigger advantage than rebinding keys, but both are still advantages over people who play the default game, as Blizzard designed it.
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rebinding keys is customization
for all you know i could have a totally different keyboard layout
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different languages of BW have different hotkeys, I see no problem with changing your keys, my only worry would be if I was allowed to do it at a LAN or not and therefore would practice with these new keys while and then be fucked when If I was forced to use the old again.
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For every beneficial difference in a differently localized version of BW I'm sure there's one key that sucks as bad as the many hard to reach keys in the NA version.
WIth Keycraft you're changing every key to something that gives you an advantage over the regular keys. You can bind every key to the same button, and instead of your tank, m&m and vessel micro making you hit T, I, O, you're hitting E E E. No version of BW gives you that kind of advantage, so drop the localization argument.
I personally have NOTHING against key binding, if it was in the game, or if it was part of a universally used plug in. If the iccup plugin had keybinding built in, and everyone on iccup was aware of it and had the option of using it, I would support it. However as it stands very people know about keycraft and it's not integral to the game so to me it's an unfair advantage.
If it was something everyone used and everyone knew about I'd be ok using it too, but I felt kinda lame knowing people were playing with the real hotkeys
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lol i dont know what to think now..i m so used to theses keys, i tried this afternoon and it was like " welcome back to 2 yars ago"..it will take months for me to get used to new keys
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imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it.
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lol i lost 7 games in a row, mostly vs noobs, i just can't play without it. Call me a hacker, i know it's false,whatever,i'm sure i would have 99.5 % of my level if i had never play with theses keys but played with english version. It would take months to have same level without my keys, i don't have time.
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it's OK for me
If the italian version uses W for irridate, it's ok for some guy here, but if you change your hotkey with keycraft to W, it's not. This really doesn't make any sense. It's really not an unfair advatage IMO. You could be able to change your keys like in any other game in the genre..
Now you could make an argument, something like " other games have MBS and shit, automine, etc., should I use hack to make this options avalaible? ".You missed the whole point. This is an interface thingie, not a change in gameplay. This is just customization. What if I rip off my windows keys ? Is it unfair?
You know what? Will the change bother you, if I use MPQ editors and not keycraft?
And for progamers, this really doesn't matter anything. They woouldn't be faster if they changed their shortcuts..
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is awesome32244 Posts
It's been discussed lots of times. Different language version have different keyboard layouts. So if i use a french keyboard or a spanish BW version im in advantage?
You don't need to use keycraft to change hotkeys, you only need to change the patch_rt file (thats what kycraft does i think), so there is no real 3rd party program running in the back, you just run it once.
ps: I have probe on S.
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you'll just get owned in LAN tournaments where they specify the computer... which of course isn't really a problem unless you're a progamer anyway
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On January 01 2008 04:55 azndsh wrote: you'll just get owned in LAN tournaments where they specify the computer... which of course isn't really a problem unless you're a progamer anyway
Not really. Just in Korea.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 01 2008 04:41 freelander wrote: it's OK for me
If the italian version uses W for irridate, it's ok for some guy here, but if you change your hotkey with keycraft to W, it's not. This really doesn't make any sense. It's really not an unfair advatage IMO. You could be able to change your keys like in any other game in the genre..
Now you could make an argument, something like " other games have MBS and shit, automine, etc., should I use hack to make this options avalaible? ".You missed the whole point. This is an interface thingie, not a change in gameplay. This is just customization. What if I rip off my windows keys ? Is it unfair?
You know what? Will the change bother you, if I use MPQ editors and not keycraft?
And for progamers, this really doesn't matter anything. They woouldn't be faster if they changed their shortcuts..
No, you said: Blizzard added binds in WC3 therefore they accept it in SC, but were just too lazy. I say: Blizzard added MBS in WC3 therefore they accept it in SC, but were just too lazy.
Both arguments are equally invalid. Lots of people rip off their windows key, because Windows interfering is not part of the game.
Honestly, I don't see how it's difficult for you to see why it's an advantage. Go watch the WCG videos of Tasteless explaining how he positions his hand in a ridiculous manner to be able to reach P and still 1a2a3a at the same time. For that matter, 1r2r3r would be easier than 1a2a3a. Or doing what lake suggested and rebinding Siege, Lay Mine, Irradiate, Stim Pack all to one key. Even progamers would benefit.
I think some things in the game are stupid too, but I don't mess around with third party software to affect my gameplay.
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Look. If you play against an Italian player, who uses his regional version, he has an advantage over you (or not, but you see my point). But with this minor editing, you can make the game even. What now?
Anyway, it's similiar to Counter-Strike. Lots of options can't be set from the game menu. You have to use the console, type the appropriate commands and values. All of the competitive players use these commands.
And one more comment about "third party softwares": The KeyCraft is really not one of them. It doesn't run in the memory of your computer, when you are playing BroodWar. Btw I don't think Iccup could check it if you set your shortcuts or not.
edit: lol wtf. I just checked the iccup ladder's rules, and it never mentions keycraft, only 3rd party programmes. I don't know why the op thinks it is forbidden.
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United States22883 Posts
The Italian player may have an advantage with Irradiate, but he's at a disadvantage with some other key.
You're right, it's similar to Counter Strike, where custom ex_interp, and minimal texture/smoke settings are banned in competitive play. Improving your internet performance is allowed (cmdrate/updaterate), but as soon as you alter gameplay (ex_interp), you get in trouble. The players who do use unfair interp settings and then suck on LAN get ridiculed heavily for it.
The only competitive games I can think of where "outside" help seems to be allowed is UT/Quake with red/blue models, but even then they're playing on special competitive Mods that usually come with those models.
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On January 01 2008 07:11 Jibba wrote: The Italian player may have an advantage with Irradiate, but he's at a disadvantage with some other key.
You're right, it's similar to Counter Strike, where custom ex_interp, and minimal texture/smoke settings are banned in competitive play. Improving your internet performance is allowed (cmdrate/updaterate), but as soon as you alter gameplay (ex_interp), you get in trouble. The players who do use unfair interp settings and then suck on LAN get ridiculed heavily for it.
The only competitive games I can think of where "outside" help seems to be allowed is UT/Quake with red/blue models, but even then they're playing on special competitive Mods that usually come with those models. ex_interp messes with hit registration, texture/smoke settings would be like modding the mpq so that the cloak effect was really easy to see, and AOE spells were giant flat boxes. these things can't possibly be compared to keybinding which is allowed in every single competitive game that it's possible. starcraft is one of those games that where it isn't possible.
if you seriously think one of the reasons SC is such a great competitive game is awkward hotkey placement i don't really know what to tell you
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United States22883 Posts
It's not, and I wish you could change keys in the default game, but you can't, so you shouldn't try to through other means. And apparently iccup agrees with me, so where is your god now?
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On January 01 2008 04:47 IntoTheWow wrote: ps: I have probe on S. I knew ITW changed his keys. !!!!!!!
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is awesome32244 Posts
Oh god jibba shut up. What about those keyboards that have the 1234567890 keys in this position
12345 67890
on the left of the TAB key? ITS EASY AS HELL TO 1a2a3a4a5a6a7 there? Are those keyboards banned?
What if i rip my keyboard apart and take the A key and place it in my tongue? I HAVE AN EXTRA LIMB. You have 10 fingers i have 11 to use. 1a2a3a4a5a6a would be easy as hell to do then. Whata re you going to do then? cut my tongue?
God.
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United States22883 Posts
Such impeccable logic. :r
You can do whatever the hell you want to give yourself an advantage, but don't cry about it if you get in trouble, like the OP is crying about Iccup. I just told you why it's an advantage and the most likely reasons they're against it.
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Have you tried using a Nostromo pad? I use it for some MMOs I play, it works pretty well. Starcraft might have too many keys to program onto a Nostromo though. Plus it might be unfair, because the Nostromo has the ability to 4sd5sd6sd7sd8sd9sd0sd in under a second, which makes macroing with zerg utteraly insane.
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is awesome32244 Posts
On January 01 2008 08:18 Jibba wrote: Such impeccable logic. :r
You can do whatever the hell you want to give yourself an advantage, but don't cry about it if you get in trouble, like the OP is crying about Iccup. I just told you why it's an advantage and the most likely reasons they're against it.
Are you dumb? I'm only making silly analogies like you do between MBS and Key mapping. BW already has key mapping trough regional versions or even trough keyboards. We aren't talking about things built into the game.
He won't get into trouble in Iccup cause there's no 3rd party program running in the background.
This isn't hack-like advantage. I feel like I'm talking to a wall.
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United States22883 Posts
He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why.
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ITW, i guess you still have some hours till 2008 HNY
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is awesome32244 Posts
On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why.
So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this?
lol
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is awesome32244 Posts
Happy new year freelander!
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United States22883 Posts
On January 01 2008 08:40 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why. So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this? + Show Spoiler +lol I'd be annoyed if I lost to someone using that keyboard too. But Iccup launcher can't detect keyboards I assume it can detect Keycraft though. Even if it can't, they said it's forbidden.
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On January 01 2008 08:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 08:40 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why. So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this? + Show Spoiler +lol I'd be annoyed if I lost to someone using that keyboard too. But Iccup launcher can't detect keyboards I assume it can detect Keycraft though. Even if it can't, they said it's forbidden.
yea, it's forbidden I only looked for it in the ladder rules and not in the forum.
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On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it.
I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^.
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opps this topic is dead. wateva the fuck i'm using it for iccup and none of you can make me stop it. ^^
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On January 01 2008 21:20 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it. I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. Actually, it does augment your APM. Now, I agree that it sucks that different SC language-versions have different hotkeys, and I'm all for customizable hotkeys. Blizzard didn't include it though. End of discussion.
Oh and don't tell me it doesn't give you an unfair advantage. Playing with less stress is an advantage, incase you hadn't noticed.
To me, it's no different than using hacks. But don't beat yourself over it. Unless you're playing competitively, it doesn't matter.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
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On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
Pretty much sums it up. If you want to play with keycraft, start your own keycraft-ladder and play with your keycrafting friends. If you want to play on iCCup, learn to play without keycraft like everybody else.
PS: French, German and other localized layouts are generally a lot poorer than English. I don't care if somebody eeks out a tiny advantage by using localized versions.
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On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it.
Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?.
you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On January 02 2008 10:05 haduken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it. Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?. you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable. You're messing up Blizzard's intentions (which nobody cares about now since StarCraft is living it's own life for a long time) with the de facto standard of StarCraft competetive play. In every sport, there's a standard for player gear. You can't go play football wearing knuckles, you can't play baseball with a metal bat, you can't play SC on LAN with a customizable keyboard. You can't play competetive SC with external applications (unless the host makes their use mandatory like the PGT/pplug case).
And it does help win games. You're simply flat out wrong here, I already explained why and I won't waste my time chewing the food for you and explaining it again. Auto-spread is neglible too. But I won't hesitate for a second before accusing anyone using oblivion of cheating.
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On January 01 2008 22:22 fgsvsd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 21:20 haduken wrote:On January 01 2008 02:19 PsycHOTemplar wrote:imo, rebinding your key don't give you that mur ch an advantage. it might make a D- player to a D player but it won't make a D player a B player if you get what i mean. If it's not much of an advantage, stop doing it? The only reason you do it is because it IS an advantage. Honestly, I don't care if you do it for casual gaming; but if you're going to pretend to be competitive, you have to stop doing it. This is obvious. Until every player in every professional league in Korea is allowed to customise their keys, iCCup (which obviously attempts to mimic pro-sc scene, just like PGT) is going to continue to disallow it. I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. Actually, it does augment your APM. Now, I agree that it sucks that different SC language-versions have different hotkeys, and I'm all for customizable hotkeys. Blizzard didn't include it though. End of discussion. Oh and don't tell me it doesn't give you an unfair advantage. Playing with less stress is an advantage, incase you hadn't noticed. To me, it's no different than using hacks. But don't beat yourself over it. Unless you're playing competitively, it doesn't matter.
blizzard also didnt include reversable ramps and shit like we have nowadays in bw.
Switching your hotkeys around is fine, anyone who says otherwise is pretty retarded. Who cares if blizzard implimented it or not? Its an object in basically ANY game, you can always alter the controls. And no, just because they have an advantageous key in another language doesnt automatically give them some disadvantaged key to "balance it out" thats horrible logic. What ive wondered is at WCG finals if they have multiple versions of starcraft on the computer for players from other countries to use so they dont automatically have to use english hotkeys if they are used to playing on their native language version of starcraft.
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On January 01 2008 08:50 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 08:40 IntoTheWow wrote:On January 01 2008 08:35 Jibba wrote: He said WC3 was proof that he should be able to rebind keys, I said it wasn't. MBS was just used to show that using WC3 as an argument is stupid. This is basic comparative logic.
And Iccup doesn't want you using Keycraft, which is what the OP is talking about. It's as simple as that. If you want to edit the txt file and they say it's ok, then by all means do so. But it DOES make the game easier for you, and if they say it's not ok, don't sit around wondering why. So i edit the S key for a probe and i have advantage over a guy who uses this? + Show Spoiler +lol I'd be annoyed if I lost to someone using that keyboard too. But Iccup launcher can't detect keyboards I assume it can detect Keycraft though. Even if it can't, they said it's forbidden.
why would you be pissed that you lost to someone using that keyboard? Thats a pretty fucking lame.
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On January 03 2008 03:27 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2008 10:05 haduken wrote:On January 02 2008 04:47 BluzMan wrote: It's quite a complicated thing because it's on the borderline between hacking and not hacking. On one hand, different languages bla bla bla. On the other hand, haypro has been banned recently for using the automine function of oblivion. Automine reduces your machine time load, allowing you to spend more time on different tasks. It's clearly a hack. But in essence, rebinding all hotkeys to the same area does the same thing with the less magnitude.
Toss hotkey patterns are extremely varied, for instance. Why? Because it's sometimes even faster to click the build probe button on the order bar (and touching the order bar is commonly considered something you should never do) than to reach out to the right keyboard side to hit "P". It's fucking important because tosses are naturally handicapped early-midgame by having their main midgame keys (Z, A, D, R vs U, P) on the different sides of the board. Try the "harass with worker and max out" exercise with 0-nexus and 1-probe and feel the pain. It's much harder to do it than with 0-9 and stuff. There's a huge difference no matter what people tend to say about it, so keycraft actually gives the players using it a considerable advantage. Yes, there are backdoors like getting a different language SC (and it won't help you on LAN anyway), but those are backdoors left by Blizzard itself, so it's out of the question. Using a third party tool to rebind the keys gives you an advantage. It gives you an advantage not provided by the game. Getting an ingame advantage (of whatever kind and magnitude) by using a third-party tool is hacking by definition. Yes, the logical basis for this is questionable (since every game in 2007 allows hotkey rebinding), but that doesn't matter, hackers will rationalize why fog of war is stupid, sending your workers to mine is stupid as are many other things. It gives advantage with the help of an external application. For me, that's it. Backdoor? i highly doubt that. All the other hack alters the GAME PLAY. this is not a hack and it doesn't alter anything other than your own discomfort. I disagree with your argument about the design of the game "handicap" players because no one can prove that was blizzard's original intent. So what of it? you are trying to argue that because it isn't part of the original distrubution of starcraft it shouldn't be used then what of iccup? what of pgtour? what of ppplugin?. you can argue that it give you an advantage but no more than giving D- player maybe a few more wins. it doesn't win your games, it doesn't help win your games, so it's negliable. You're messing up Blizzard's intentions (which nobody cares about now since StarCraft is living it's own life for a long time) with the de facto standard of StarCraft competetive play. In every sport, there's a standard for player gear. You can't go play football wearing knuckles, you can't play baseball with a metal bat, you can't play SC on LAN with a customizable keyboard. You can't play competetive SC with external applications (unless the host makes their use mandatory like the PGT/pplug case). And it does help win games. You're simply flat out wrong here, I already explained why and I won't waste my time chewing the food for you and explaining it again. Auto-spread is neglible too. But I won't hesitate for a second before accusing anyone using oblivion of cheating.
The only reason you have to worry about being able to use it or not at lans is because quite frequently starcraft admins are fucking stupid (at least here in USA) and its even a pain in the ass to load your mouse drivers. They basically are incompitent, it would be like forcing everyone who plays an FPS to use the same keys and mouse sensitivity.
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i guess u never used keycraft then. i was at my skill lv before using it and afterwards and since i don't know anyone else that improved significantly using it then maybe you can show someone to us?
You are trying to explain Blizzard's game design only in favor of your argument. that's double standard. remember when rally can only be done by pressing r? how can you argue that keycraft should not be allowed when the general competive community are not aware of it because of its relatively late introduction when everyone got used to the vanilla setup and now it's out of date and require significant intuition to make it work. hmm good reasoning there. btw stop comparing this to auto-spread, one automate the tasks for you, keycraft you still need to do everything yourself. reconfiguring the key setup make it easy but not so easy that you can do everything perfectly like a machine. the biggest point that you nay sayers haven't addressed yet is that keycraft doesn't alter game play and you see it as a hack? lol okay
Your whole argument is really centred on the point that because blizzard didn't make it in their original design then it is not legal when we all know the better (part of the reason why sc is so good is because players and the community make the effort to take the inititive)
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please don't try to dedicate to others what your opinion is of blizzard's intention because no one knows and we all know it wasn't their intention for sc to be alive after 10 years (they can dream but lets be real here)
did soccer rules, basketball rules, and other sports improve and change over the past? what of wgtour, pgtour, iccup? are they not an infrigement of the software rights of blizzard? hmm
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I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^.
How hard is it to type 0p? They keys are literally right next to each other. And yes, it does change your speed if suddenly all the keys you need to touch are right next to each other. I'm not the one losing games without editting the hotkeys, so you can forget about your last comment making any sense at all.
Like I said: I don't care if you want to edit the hotkeys for casual play. I like a challange, and I don't care if my opponent needs to change his setup to do that for me. What I do care about is when you want to find out who's better (ie: competition), someone should have to use the standard setups. If I believed a foreign version of BW with a different hotkey setup would make me play better, and I were very competetive, I might install it. It's an accepted standard. But TBH, the English setup is probably the best standard setup out there, or someone would have said something.
In short: You have no right to claim you're better than another player if you use a handicap. The true spirit of competition means all contestants start on equal grounds.
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On January 03 2008 04:28 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +I use it because it's a preference and what do you know my fingers are short and i have trouble jumping my hand to reach p everytime -_-. what the hell do you mean pretend to be competitive? have my keys my way doesn't change the gameplay, it doesn't change the strategy or the speed of my apm, it doesn't change anything except the fact that i play the game less stressful SO WHAT advantage are you talking about? stop blame ur suckage on others ^^ and btw Korea have a keycraft thing called starkey and china and E-key both keycraft like programs which no one complains about so ^^. How hard is it to type 0p? They keys are literally right next to each other. And yes, it does change your speed if suddenly all the keys you need to touch are right next to each other. I'm not the one losing games without editting the hotkeys, so you can forget about your last comment making any sense at all. Like I said: I don't care if you want to edit the hotkeys for casual play. I like a challange, and I don't care if my opponent needs to change his setup to do that for me. What I do care about is when you want to find out who's better (ie: competition), someone should have to use the standard setups. If I believed a foreign version of BW with a different hotkey setup would make me play better, and I were very competetive, I might install it. It's an accepted standard. But TBH, the English setup is probably the best standard setup out there, or someone would have said something. In short: You have no right to claim you're better than another player if you use a handicap. The true spirit of competition means all contestants start on equal grounds.
Guess everyone better use the same mouse sensitivty and only be able to change the scroll since blizzard didnt put sensitivity into the game.
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On January 03 2008 04:54 Sadist wrote: Guess everyone better use the same mouse sensitivty and only be able to change the scroll since blizzard didnt put sensitivity into the game.
qf mega t
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Changing hotkeys and changing mouse sensitivity are not the same thing, moron.
+ Show Spoiler +I call your scarecrow argument, and raise you ad hominem.
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On January 03 2008 05:25 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Changing hotkeys and changing mouse sensitivity are not the same thing, moron. + Show Spoiler +I call your scarecrow argument, and raise you ad hominem.
Yes they are, you are changing the game to your personal settings.
You can do this in any videogame, even in nintendo games you could switch B with A and A with B.
Imagine a fighting game where you couldnt change the controls? How bullshit would that be.
Its exactly the same thing. Its not changing the game, its customizing the controls.
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where can i dl Keycraft? any link would be appreciated -)
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i don't understand how this is a hack at all...it's not giving you any advantage imo you still have to push the button to make it work its really not fair to this person since he has done it one way for so long and now he has to relearn everything...but i guess if its banned its banned
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It doesn't matter one way or another what Blizzard intended, as the general player base is what runs the games standards. I have played this game for many years and this is only the second time I've heard of the program, so assuming that the entire competitive player base has access/knows of this ability is folly, and thus using the program to your advantage is not justifiable by saying that competitive games in general allow it.
Keycraft does give the opportunity for an unfair advantage. Having all of your hotkeys nearby eachother and in easy reach, or furthermore, binding multiple key spells/abilities (as op mentioned) to a single, easily reachable key is an advantage over someone who is not doing so, no matter how you try to cut that cake. Even if it's just for the sake of your comfort, it's overriding what is supposed to be with what you want to be, while the same is not true of those who do not use it.
That being said, I personally don't have a problem with one kind of user as opposed to another. Those using the program simply to resituate the normal key structure for easier reach (as with p -> s) is fine by me; it is still a slight advantage, and arguing against that is silly given the nature of reprogramming something for your comfort, but it isn't a game changing one to me.
I do, however, make a distinction between the above and those who would bind multiple commands/keys to a single key, allowing them to issue multiple commands at once. This eliminates a need to multitask as well as others, is very different from rebinding for comfort, and is a game changer (and thus hack) in my view.
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Using this makes the game much easier imo....so either EVERYONE should use it (as in blizz should put this into the game) or it should be banned...Bw is all about balance...
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it's not for you to say what is easy for ppl or not. i happen to have small hands and i have trouble covering the entire keyboard and there are others like me so pressing 0p 0p is hard for me. any advantage that you claim are neglible because macrowise the keycrafters suffer because they neglect the right part of the keyboard.
hmm, the naysayers are running out of things to say. what the hell lol kinda argument is because everyone else is not using it then it shouldn't be allowed? for one thing, you can't even define the standard for everyone, you don't know what happens in the korean scene (they have their own customisable keyboard which are not banned), you don't know what happens in the Chinese scene. as it stands, you naysayers can't prove any of the things you claim (please don't present ur opinion as facts) and stop calling people morons when they present a case and you can't.
We are done with this discussion, you naysayers are against it because you feel robbed while you present your personal opinions as argument so lol at you.
anyways, lets stop arguing the case of BW morality and let's look at a cute azn chick in bikini :D
with a horse in the backgroud !
omfg look at that O_O
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Actually doing it in lan events isn't really hard, you just have to replace the patch_rt.mpq file in your bw folder, which you can have on your usb stick or on the hotmail... Ahh it's not like they can stop anyone from using it either, as you dont have a program running in the background as already stated, I dont even have keycraft on my comp anymore and I still have changed hotkeys.. They would have to make a program that scanned the patch_rt file to catch anyone, dunno if it's even possible...
Common, it's just a setting it dont alter the gameplay which is the idea of a hack... It's just a stupid discussion where those who want to use it, will use it, while those who not, wont use it. Afterall there isn't anyway to catch anyone with it...
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Hotkey and using hotkeys is so easy for me it comes nateraly so i dont think that i have to suffer because some keys are further aprt i dont think it matters at all, i dont even think when i key. Usualy i cant even say wat keys do which, its just natural now.
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Im not really sure whether or not to consider it as i type of hack since, as some people already stated, it doesn't really affect the gameplay. However it could give an unfair advantage if one player has a different set of hotkeys from the other. But then again it depends on whether the players are comfortable with their own hotkey set or the original. Personally, I'd prefer to stick with the original hotkeys.
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On January 01 2008 00:37 Jibba wrote: So because they made a UI change in WC3, they meant for it in SC? I guess you just gave a vote for MBS.
Someone could buy the Italian version of BW to get an unfair advantage of Irradiate, but the chances of that happening are far, far less than someone using Keycraft. Yeah, MBS is a much bigger advantage than rebinding keys, but both are still advantages over people who play the default game, as Blizzard designed it.
Oh those unfair Italian versions!
How can you possibly by serious that having a different language version is unfair? Unfair like hacking? Don't you see that this is a StarCraft design flaw that stems back from the time before professional SC?
On a side note, I've been wondering why they use the English version for pro games. Is there anything wrong with the Korean version?
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United States22883 Posts
On January 04 2008 08:54 Simplistik wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2008 00:37 Jibba wrote: So because they made a UI change in WC3, they meant for it in SC? I guess you just gave a vote for MBS.
Someone could buy the Italian version of BW to get an unfair advantage of Irradiate, but the chances of that happening are far, far less than someone using Keycraft. Yeah, MBS is a much bigger advantage than rebinding keys, but both are still advantages over people who play the default game, as Blizzard designed it. Oh those unfair Italian versions! How can you possibly by serious that having a different language version is unfair? Unfair like hacking? Don't you see that this is a StarCraft design flaw that stems back from the time before professional SC? On a side note, I've been wondering why they use the English version for pro games. Is there anything wrong with the Korean version? I said on Irradiate it would be, but it'd be disadvantaged on some other bind so all in all it'd be fairly equal. That's not the same as setting everything to the same key.
It's not as if it'd be difficult for Blizzard to allow it if they wanted to. They did it for WC3 with CustomKeys.
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blizzard are lazy, that's it. stop trying to come up with some cosmic explanation why they haven't patch it with a custom key.
the point of the argument about different language keyboard is that there are NO gameplay reason behind this particular design decision on Blzzard's part. Cmon, every fucking hotkey have to belong to the word that associate with the unit, how the fuck did you even think that has to do with balance and gameplay? ???
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Saying Blizzard is lazy in implementing this is not necessarily true.
A) They could either not know about this, B) Know about it and not care, C) Know about it and be against it, D) Know about it and support it.
Now if it is A or B, they don't have any stance on it and it won't get patched.
If it is C, they wouldn't patch it in, but they also likely wouldn't speak out against it unless it became some huge hack issue on Bnet (which it isn't). Leagues have decided what is allowed and what is not, and Blizzard has no reason to change that and tell everyone not to use Keycraft or any similar software/file changing.
Now, D is a bit trickier. If they support it, they could publicly support it, which I doubt because they have nothing to gain, it's not a big issue, and they would make some enemies. And I doubt they would patch it in if they did support it. Not because of laziness, but because it wouldn't be good business. Now, Blizzard is a company known for putting players ahead of business plans, and that wouldn't have changed. Only a minority of players want to have customisable hotkeys, so they would not be betraying the players, just not listening to the voice of a small minority (and it is small, considering how *rough estimate* it is 50% at most, and then there is fastest and UMS players who don't care about this). But none of that is even considering the release of SC2. If memory serves me correctly, Blizzard got their lawyers on a mod for Generals that was basically 3D Starcraft so that no thunder was stolen from SC2. A big patch like this would steal thunder away from SC2, and why in the hell would they do that?
*NOTE, it's 1 AM, I'm not the clearest or writers, and English class was almost a year ago (semesters, baby!). Excuse me if I don't make sense.
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Mmmmmmmmmm...
Let's think about an another way : Soccer : They have their shoes changed every year to get better and better to shoot with. Tennis : The rope of those tennis racket are getting more and more flexible and better to use with. Basically all the sports have their own thing that they upgrade as time go on.
So i don't see why we wouldn't change our keyboard to make it better for us. It's all about being competitive. The game itself won't even be changed. It's just because it makes the player more confortable and so do the others competitive' sports.
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Keycraft should not be banned, war3 has a built in hotkey changing ability. All you have to do is type some crap in text document and place it in the folder. I made all my hotkeys for heroes Z X C (like dota) and even some buildings upgrades are in the same fashion of Q-R left to right and Q-Z Up to down.
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it took them like 4 patches to add replay. took them anther few patches to give click-rallying.
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KeyCraft is clearly an advantage, if only because it saves you having to hit 'p' when playing Protoss.
If KeyCraft is allowed, this forces everybody to use KeyCraft if they want to compete on equal terms.
Thus, either everybody should use KeyCraft or nobody should use KeyCraft. As long as the world's foremost leagues do not use KeyCraft, it will not become the norm.
Those of you who insist on KeyCrafting: Feel free, but get the fuck off of servers which have clearly prohibited it (iCCup). Start your own fucking servers.
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On January 04 2008 21:44 Zherak wrote: KeyCraft is clearly an advantage, if only because it saves you having to hit 'p' when playing Protoss.
If KeyCraft is allowed, this forces everybody to use KeyCraft if they want to compete on equal terms.
Thus, either everybody should use KeyCraft or nobody should use KeyCraft. As long as the world's foremost leagues do not use KeyCraft, it will not become the norm.
Those of you who insist on KeyCrafting: Feel free, but get the fuck off of servers which have clearly prohibited it (iCCup). Start your own fucking servers.
fucken fucking of fuck?
If KeyCraft is allowed, this forces everybody to use KeyCraft if they want to compete on equal terms. ---------> this is not entirely true. For instance, I support using KeyCraft, because it's a great tool, which (in my opinion) makes up an obvious lack, on the other hand I wouldn't use it, because I am used to use the default English shortcut system (with protoss).
Anyway "as long as the world's foremost leagues do not use KeyCraft" I don't really know if either you are a participant, organizator or referee in these leagues, but I am not really sure it's banned there.
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as far as im concerned. iccup did not forbid it. it wasn't in any of their written rules. a forum response is not a definate ban because the admin who answered it only answered for himself. he clearly didn't consult this with the rest of the admins otherwise it would've being in the rules.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 04 2008 23:14 haduken wrote: as far as im concerned. iccup did not forbid it. it wasn't in any of their written rules. a forum response is not a definate ban because the admin who answered it only answered for himself. he clearly didn't consult this with the rest of the admins otherwise it would've being in the rules. The written rules say no third party programs besides their launcher.
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So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program?
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i came here to tell you that i'm really good at remembering all hotkeys of broodwar and tft for all races and spells and everything. i don't need this shit! man i'm so cool. also i don't have anything against it, for a man's inability to remember things shouldn't give them a disadvantage!
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United States22883 Posts
On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ?
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On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ?
but it doesn't run in the background, doesn't give you more information about the opponent or something.
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United States22883 Posts
On January 05 2008 00:27 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ? but it doesn't run in the background, doesn't give you more information about the opponent or something. Whatever, an iCCup admin specifically said it's not allowed. If you want to fight it, go ahead. I'm done with this thread.
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technically it is not allowed because it is indeed a third party program that changes your game from the original version to your edited one. they shouldn't give a shit about it though cause it doesn't really give you an advantage.
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There are gaming keyboards that come with remappable keys. And I'm not aware of anyone being banned for using them. It seems silly to ban a program which only gives a standard dell keyboard the same feature. But it's iccup's house so iccup's rules.
If you don't want to spend the money on something like the Razer Tarantula, you can fix the keys yourself with winmpq and the old gosugamers guide. Then you don't have to use a 3rd party program like keycraft while playing iccup, but can still change your hotkeys.
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If it doesnt give an unfair advantage, why did the guy lose 7 games in a row without it and why does it make a D- player a D player? Poeple who have lower skils, are supposed to deal with cheaters? Only progamers can play fair games?
Seriously, I dont play much recently and when I come back to Starcraft I sometimes play vs pubs to warm up and I'm coming to the conclusion that like 50% of Starcraft players are cheating in some way. The ways to cheat seem to be endless, starting from "I dont scout vs random and always know what you do", "I cant be starved, I got unlimited minerals", "UMS map is rigged" and now it's "I modified my keyboard, so my 60 apm hands > your 100 apm hands - even on ICCUP". Why is everyone bashing the D players? Cant we just play a fair game? Are we supposed to play 500 games to get to C to play fair games? -_-
Banning KeyCraft it's pretty questionable, because one can get one of these configurable keyboards, but if changing the game is forbidden, then dont change it please. Argueably you could buy the keyboard to change the layout (it will still be lame, but less people will do it, because the kids who cheat usually dont have the money/enough brain to do it).
I think there was a thread about this matter in the past and someone stated that Mondragon was forbidden to use the German keyboard layout somewhere (WCG? lan?) and I think that he now plays using the English keyboard layout.
If ICCUP is consistent with its policy they will just check for modified keys with the launcher. Keyboards are undetectable though (are they fair and is there any difference.. oh well... Id say that they are unfair too, because switching keys was not intended).
I also wonder if those who own the Italian/French versions of the game could somehow change it into the English version (there were some 3rd party tools - which are forbidden, but I wonder if it would be possible to install "English SC" using "other language" cd-key and then to play English SC using "non-English" CD).
PS. I think it would be interesting to see how many of you use KeyCraft. If you do use this program, please write it, because now I think that the proponents of it actually use it.
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I was going to point out the fact that you didn't address the issue of fairness with regards to banning modified hotkeys but not banning modified hotkeys as a part of a keyboard, which have exactly the same effect and should be treated the same allowed or banned, but then I saw you're Romanian.
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Some of you crying about it saying its unfair and shouldnt be allowed are fucking idiots.
Do you really believe blizzard put the hotkeys in their current arrangement to make the game more difficult? GTFO
they put them their because of the letters in the word in the language you are playing.
No purpose.
Most people dont know about KeyCraft which is why I think people are against it and stupid admins dont think it should be allowed. Like i said on a lan at WCG where ive been admins are incompetent so id be worried about using it and bringing it there because some places ive been barely let you touch the mouse settings let alone install your own.
Seriously, think about what you are saying for a fucking second.
PS that guy lost those games not because it helped him but because he was used to it. If i made you play left handed youd lose 7 games too.
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I'm gonna use starcraftkeychanger.exe instead, it's not banned on iccup.
all those iccup maps are made by third party editors, how about banning yourself now?
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On January 05 2008 01:12 Sadist wrote: Some of you crying about it saying its unfair and shouldnt be allowed are fucking idiots.
Do you really believe blizzard put the hotkeys in their current arrangement to make the game more difficult? GTFO
they put them their because of the letters in the word in the language you are playing.
No purpose.
Most people dont know about KeyCraft which is why I think people are against it and stupid admins dont think it should be allowed. Like i said on a lan at WCG where ive been admins are incompetent so id be worried about using it and bringing it there because some places ive been barely let you touch the mouse settings let alone install your own.
Seriously, think about what you are saying for a fucking second.
PS that guy lost those games not because it helped him but because he was used to it. If i made you play left handed youd lose 7 games too.
word
btw not all leagues ban this. i remember pgtour even promoted its use. when keycraft was introduced, no one said anything about hacking, it was an ingenius program that solved alot of people's problems.
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On January 05 2008 00:16 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 00:02 Lisk wrote: So how is a modified starcraft data file a 3rd party program? Because Keycraft is a program that modifies Starcraft, but is made independently from Blizzard hence it is third party ? And i said anything about keycraft?
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Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
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Personally, i wouldnt mind if my opponent played with keycraft. It should be made legit in my opinion.
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On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
That's plain wrong. Don't tell obvious lies.
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On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even.
GTFO
all its doing is changing hotkeys
its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
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On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. This might be the simplest analogy, yet a good one. I like it.
The people that are against it would have better argument if the hotkeys werent language dependant. In their minds, some country probly has unfair advantage over the other. So instead of people having to deny their country and accept a new nationality just let them play in peace with the hotkeys that suit them.
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The people that are against it would have better argument if the hotkeys werent language dependant.
You're choosing to attack the weakest of the arguments put forward. The fact of the matter is, if I play someone using KeyCraft, I'm not using it myself, and he or she wins by a hair, he or she did not win because he or she is better than me. Sure, someone could get an unfair advantage by having a better keyboard and mouse too, but at least I'm forcing that loser to spend good money just to beat people at a random game. Fact is, most people are using the keyboard and mouse they'd be using if they didn't play games on the computer.
PS: If a competition allows it, I don't have any problem at all with people using KeyCraft. I'm just saying that when a competition doesn't, don't bitch, because we all told you why.
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On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
[Oblivion MBS]
GTFO
all its doing is changing the UI
its no different than changing mouse sensitivity.
[Got to love analogy]
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On January 06 2008 02:24 Zherak wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Oblivion MBS] GTFO all its doing is changing the UI its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Got to love analogy]
MBS clearly breaks the limitation of being able to select only one building. Keycraft does not add anything out of the ordinary. Mere change of which button you need to press.
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In short:
There are a number of hurdles present in StarCraft, for instance fog of war, playing versus random, playing with finite resources, dealing with SBS and a maximum of 12 units selected at a time, stupidcasting and so on. The default hotkey-arrangement is yet another one of these hurdles.
Removing any of these hurdles make it easier for you to play the game. We all agree that removing fog of war (MH) or SBS and selection caps (Oblivion) is cheating. There seems to be some discussion on whether changing the hotkey-arrangement is actually cheating or not.
It is obvious that a more optimal hotkey-arrangement is advantageous. This can be achieved with KeyCraft.
It is, however, nor for each and every individual player to decide what is cheating and what isn't. In the context of Iccup, their official rules dictates what is cheating and what is not. Whatever arguments you can present for Oblivion or KeyCraft do not really matter - a community cannot depend on every single player deciding which hurdles are intentional or part of the game and which are merely needless hindrances.
Who are you to decide that giving yourself an advantage with KeyCraft is not really cheating, or so small a cheat that it doesn't matter? How is this different form using Oblivion? Why, if you have decided to allow yourself to use KeyCraft, can't another player allow himself to use auto-mining?
Who, if not the ladder admins [Iccup adminds on Iccup, Blizzard on official servers], should be the ones to draw the line?
[PenguinPlug, which does not to my knowledge provide any advantages and does not bypass any hurdles, is thus a completely different matter.]
[Note: This is only an argument for why we should follow the rules in place, not for why KeyCraft should be disallowed. Myself, I think managing the stupid hotkeys is a great part of the game, but that is merely an opinion.]
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On January 06 2008 02:53 Lisk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2008 02:24 Zherak wrote:On January 05 2008 07:42 Sadist wrote:On January 05 2008 04:28 Zherak wrote: Any of the pro-KeyCraft arguments could be made for Oblivion auto-mining, MBS and mass-selection.
KeyCraft will do nothing but make the playing field less even. GTFO all its doing is changing hotkeys its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Oblivion MBS] GTFO all its doing is changing the UI its no different than changing mouse sensitivity. [Got to love analogy] MBS clearly breaks the limitation of being able to select only one building. Keycraft does not add anything out of the ordinary. Mere change of which button you need to press.
KeyCraft clearly breaks the limitation of having to move your fucking left hand half a keyboard and accurately hit P every 10 seconds.
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Do pros rebind their keys? Someone mentioned boxer does in this thread but is it common practice? Whenever you see their hands they seem to move only on a small part of the keyboard regardless of race.
ps in light of rebindable keyboards condemnation of keycraft is quite ridiculous, you cannot consistently be anti-keycraft unless you also oppose (and restrict) g5 keyboards i dont know why so many posters here fail to realise this
pps i play zerg and 2h macro so im impartial, just got curious watching the latest tasteless casts
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Difficulty in a game shouldn't stem from difficulty in controls. I don't mean this as in having a lot to do and not being able to manage it, but that blatantly shitty shortcuts are dumb. In a computer game you should be able to bind everything as you please, make it player preference. Difficulty should arise from strategical considerations and ability to macro, not having your pinky finger nearly breaking to hit a far away button for no reason.
Of course with BW it wasn't put into the game, so it could be considered an unfair advantage. But I say let people do it, those that don't... it was there choice.
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