Hi all, there's been some threads about ZvP, a recent one describing Zerg's recent metagame trends in having advantage over P, as the Zerg metagame has reached the point where the muta batch is used to snipe templars, allowing for Protoss's army size to be reduced through psi storm reduction.
Everyone knows that P relies a lot on those storms to keep their army equivalent or greater in size to Z's army. Pure zealot/dragoon/archon gets ravaged by pure hydralisk, ling, lurker and it's always been like that for the most part.
P had their times, the original 2 gate opening which led to a lot of zvp imba discussion, 1 gate tech with stargate, then finally FE variations, +1 legspeed after FE, the FE into corsair reaver, FE into 4 gate zealot/archon for that push on destination, FE into zealot/sair, all of this.
Z has matched them all the way, and it seems the point that most modern ZvP/PvZ are at are the accumulation of hydralisks and then a batch of mutas at an appropriate timing to snipe protoss templars which essentially resets the army advantage back into Z's favor for long enough to make that advantage into a larger advantage.
Now, I do not do the statistics, I know there are those that love to get in the nitty gritty and rely even solely on statistics of match-up percentages, which is great and fine, so I will not get into any statistics.
What I do want to bring up for discussion is not anything *new,* or even necessarily innovative - it's the Dark Archon. What I do want to bring up for discussion and thought is it's new possible use in the current PvZ/ZvP metagame coinciding with the timing of that one batch of Zerg mutalisks that is used to snipe protoss templar.
The unit has been used for ages, especially lategame PvZ by many players for maelstrom vs ultralisk masses but the metagame use of the unit has been very limited in that respect, as there is no set timing established by professionals or even foreigners to begin producing a Dark Archon.
Not to mention there was never a need. The Dark Archon is virtually limited in it's metagame usage, as it's a unit that is time and energy dependent, that has no guaranteed pay off for creating. It does not do direct damage, so it's net worth is not added into your army.
But now there is a clear need for the Dark Archon in this muta-stacking and templar-sniping age of the metagame. I think the Dark archon more than ever now will end up having a place in the PvZ mid-game at that timing of the mutalisk snipe group - but only if players begin to use it, and start grinding in a specific timing to produce that dark archon.
When a Zerg player creates that batch of mutas, it is essentially the same purpose for which a player would build 1 queen, or 1 dark archon, or get one early science vessel - for that one limited metagame use at that timing of the game.
The "Bisu Build" or style of play going straight to corsairs, and using dark templar to harrass, can be effective, but Zergs are so used to it now, that it's shut down relatively easily.
But, the build and style should not be dismissed by current progamers or us now because I think you can use the same exact style and build but now branch it off to make that specific timing for building up Dark Archon energy.
Rather than attempt for a harrass that in the current metagame we know has a high percentage of being stopped, I think players need to start experimenting with using the same dark templars of bisu style of play for a dark archon to accumulate energy for maelstrom, while then playing "straight up" and accumulating the normal gateway based templar/zealot/goon ground army.
Like I mentioned, I do not think it is anything new to use the Dark Archon to specificly maelstrom a harrassment group of mutalisks, but I do think specificly planning 1 Dark Archon into Protoss builds in preparation for the mid-game muta sniping of templar is a new-ish metagame idea that is not seeing much usage.
The main thing is having a set timing for adding the Dark Archon into the build so it can accumulate energy. Then ideally, when Protoss is moving out with a templar/gateway based army, Protoss's army size will be able to remain the same as Zerg's due to maelstrom preventing templar sniping. Zergs will essentially be putting dead cash into that typical mutalisk group.
If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
The only problem is, a lot of times the zerg would tech switch right as the templars are starting to be produced, leaving not enough energy for the dark archon to maelstorm until later on. The point of the mutalisks are to either use up the storms or kill the hts since the mutas arrive at a timing where there aren't that many hts yet. Unless you can get your templar archives out early enough to get 2 dts and 2 hts instead of simply 4 hts and research maelstorm at the same time, your 1st few templars will be either morphed into archons or attacked.
It seems a bit costly though. You have two dts + the research cost. It would have to come after storm research though, or otherwise muta harass would be too dangerous. I mean, sair/dt defends well against mutas, but aren't there usually ht to help block?
And with a sair/dt build, P would be focused on limiting the Z to maybe 3 bases max since the dts would prevent expos. Yet the investment into DA would allow zerg to macro up and could afford the loss in mutas thanks to the increase in economy.
I would think this would only be viable on certain maps, ones where muta harass would be weak or the 3rd/ 4th base extremely hard to take (perhaps HBR??)
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
Mind sharing one?
Check out the Pusan vs ych rep that was just uploaded, has 2 nice maelstroms (maelstrom researched before storm).
From what I have seen so far: Early DA in current builds (for building 200 energy before you move out) allows the zerg to safely take another expansion. If you only aim for 100 energy, you should get 2 DAs, or else you rely completely on the success of that one maelstrom. 2 DAs cost a lot, though.
Imo a DA isn't as expensive as everyone claims all the time, though. 2 DTs + maelstrom costs about as much gas as an archon. The additional minerals would only go into zealots anyways. But savong a few HTs is worth much more than 2 zealots + 1 Archon, considering the timing of templar snipes. Also, if you manage to maelstrom a group of mutas (should be 9 or more since they are used for HT sniping), and kill them with archons/storm, you killed units worth 900/900. That's the price of 2 DAs. And you hopefully saved a few HTs that way, another 100/300 or more. Plus the added army strength due to more storms if you saved more than 2 HTs (otherwise the gas would have been spent on HTs).
If you open with some sair/dt build, you can use the leftover DTs once zerg gets overlord speed. Not sure how well the timing fits, but I'd assume you'd have a hard time getting 200 energy when you move out that way.
DAs also have the advantage that they have a ton of shields (your gas is much safer than if you spend it on HTs) and are quite fast. They work well later in the game, feedback on defilers and maelstrom on ultras.
@ slOosh: Actually DAs are much better for fending off mutas than HTs. Storms hit your own units too (mutas over minline...), while maelstrom only affects zealots, DTs and HTs. A group of maelstromed mutas is easily taken down by an Archon, HT or a few corsairs. Mutas can easily live through 3 or more storms unless mismicroed, so HTs are much less of a help than DAs. And they are easily sniped.
The main concern are the APM requirements at the Pro-level. As Jaedong famously said, his use of queens are limited because of the APM and multitasking demands, as well as army control and flanking taking the priority over ensnare.
The Dark Archon sees use sparingly for much the same reason, but the main concern is that casting storm often takes the priority over casting any Dark Archon Spells.
But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
On October 12 2009 05:51 slOosh wrote: But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
Maelstrom is also very good at stopping observer sniping, I would actually say better than Storm is. The issue is that it's slightly more expensive energy-wise and a DA is more expensive than a ht. 250/250 instead of 50/150.
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
LOL watched a Lz vs G5 on Destination yesterday where exactly this happened
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
MC sux. Too much energy and it only gets one unit.
On October 12 2009 05:51 slOosh wrote: But aren't HT much more versatile than DA's? Perhaps Bisu would be able to do it because he can keep his scout alive, but say you lose the probe around halfway through lair (when there's ling speed done and lurkers and mutas are both possible). Corsairs come out around the time spire is ~75% or so. If you fly over and see a bunch of lurks, the contain would be that much more effective and DA would be useless (Can't remember if mael works on lurks, but either way mael takes 100 energy and you would still take more casualties than if you used storm).
It would only work if you know that they will go mutas. Otherwise 2/3 hydra or lurker contain would kill this DA build so much.
It is not so much about a "build" as it is utilizing just one DA for the specific task of neutralizing templar sniping mid game, just like those mutas themselves are built and then act as "1 unit" by stacking and are used for the specific task of sniping templar.
Only the initial two DT produced are used to merge and accumulate energy at a theoretically appropriate time in the game.
You really lose nothing with this as the Zergs nowadays already prepare for Dark Templar bisu raids, so you end up with having that 1 DA, aside from that you go zealot/templar/goon as normal, not even researching maelstrom until the mutas are hatching and as you are moving out really, much like when you are doing a timing push off of two factory with T vs P - you do not need siege mode right away.
On October 12 2009 06:15 Piste wrote: I bet you wrote this after you saw yCh[z-zone] vs PuSan[S.G]. This is old idea and it's been used many years ago..
I haven't seen it yet, I will watch though. And I mentioned many times, this is "NOTHING NEW" but building a DA specificly for the timing of the mutas and for the purpose of anti-mid game muta sniping...that is relatively new.
It would be too late to get the DA + Research so you will die to an early push if you plan on not getting storm. Even after storm I doubt this will work.
I agree with Dark Archon usage. The Dark Archon can serve the same purpose as the sci vessel in tvz i.e. negating mass stacked mutas and feedback defilers.
BUT since most of the midgame of zerg consist of mostly hydras lings lurkers, dark archons have no use. So just as zerg stalls to late game and uses defilers to win the game, I can see protoss holding out to lategame before producing dark archons.
Dark archons for the midgame is just too resource demanding. So if you want dark archons to catch the muta group, then you'll have to delay something else. The question is what can protoss delay. What can the protoss do without? need ht for hydras, need obs for lurkers?
What if protoss changes the way they play. Delay their early/midgame army size and use those resources to get dark archons. Then when tech adv is set, make a lot of gateways and pump units. pumping units from 2 gate way then 4 then 6 uses resources on the way while just straight up building 8 gates and pumping uses resources when you decide to start pumping and will give you the about the same army size when you push.
But that will make p's early mid game weak and their lategame stronger. While the current build makes p's mid game strong but their late game weak. But zerg is playing defensive to the strong mid game and d'ing up like mad. So uh...take advantage?
Guys, it's two dark templar that are already used in virtually many Protoss builds, there is no massive resource drain like everyone is making out, and there is no hit to your army size, except those two dark templar which are never part of the main army in the first place.
There also is no delay in storm research or normal templar production, the entire point of the initial two DT merging is to accumulate energy. You research maelstrom much later after that. Everything else with normal ratios or production of zealots/templar/goon etc. remain the same, except now you have 1 DA mid-game.
No one puts much effort to attempt these things until one player finally finds a way to make it work THEN everyone is like, "OHHHHHHHHH"
Happened with corsairs, happened with reavers, happened with arbiters, happened with vessels, happened with vultures in modern times.
I've used DA's against Terran to nice effect too, you'd be surprised how much damage a cloaked DA who mind controls a tank in the middle of a tank cluster can do.
I played against a friend and felt like trying it out, so I grabbed about 3 DA's and got MC ready, then put them in with my arby/goon/zeal group, and during the battle if you MC some key tanks(or any key unit I suppose but clustered tanks are great) you can do nicely.
Obviously the only issue here is EMP, so it does come back to the whole problem of 'too much micro' which I agree with, the APM is a limiting factor which puts DA use into question. OP's idea however has merit if it's only 1 DA to control mutas. I'd like to see what some of the higher-level iccup'ers have to say.
How about playing with some reaver & dt action to harras the zerg and then later push out with a dark archon and ht ? in the fight you can protect youre HTs due the maelstorm and the Hts will storm everything.The reaver and dt harras allows you to get more time to get ht and dark archon.
Pulling a build involving a DA is possible, but it will depend a lot on micro since you will have fewer units. Now if the zerg were to instead go lurkers, you would likely die. A bit risky I think.
I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway.
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
Ultras are worthless without their upgrades and unless you mind control a drone, you ain't getting them. MC'ing an ultra is close to just killing it, all the while putting the DA himself on the verge of death. Funnily enough, DA is a more expensive unit than ultra.
I don't see a metagame shift coming from DA, honestly. This unit is almost useless in midgame as it deals no damage and may misfire vs a muta clump to a micro error, wasting it's power completely.
Furthermore, a metagame shift simply cannot happen at late game. Late game is the time when both players' plans to win the game somewhat failed and they're playing by instinct and knowledge instead of thorough preparation for a specific set of scenarios. Through more than 10 years of StarCraft's existence that has been extremely well-studied, what works and what doesn't. Metagame shifts revolve around specific builds and playstyles - early and midgame. And there's no fucking way a DA will be a better midgame investment than 2 DT because it's applicability area is one situation (maelstorm a muta clump when there's an Archon nearby) whereas DT can hurt the zerg in many different game situations. DA gets somewhat useful in late game when protoss needs to stop large attacking zerg armies with tons of AoE, but that simply doesn't happen in midgame.
On October 12 2009 07:44 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway.
So you ought to have: maelstorm and psi storm researched (which are at the same building so can't be done at the same time), an HT with 150 energy (that's a lot) and a DA with 100? And a sizeable amount of cannons because otherwise he will just split the mutas and laugh at you since none of your units directly attack air. You'll be dead by then. I can imagine DA being done on time with a regular Archon, but with storm you'll be late. This won't work. Instant effect on maelstorm is cool, but what if you misclick? A strategy that totally crumbles because of one bad click is not really reliable.
I think people are missing the point of the dark archons, they can be used to get rid of the mutas as well as to maelstrom other things, it's not like the DA's become useless after the mutas leave the field, like sairs do. Rather you can use them to maelstrom hydras and lings and lurkers (before they burrow) and then couple that with storm.
Late game used to be so zerg biased because of doom drops filled with cracklings and ultra's which just seemed invicible against anything the toss could throw at it. Now there have been recent games where players will have a DA around the dropable bases and just maelstrom the overlords as they are dropping and then storm everything.
All in all the spell maelstrom has been hugely overlooked, and its not like DA's cost much more than a regular archon, just a few more minerals. The Maelstrom/Storm combo in my opinion is extremely deadly.
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: Ultras are worthless without their upgrades and unless you mind control a drone, you ain't getting them.
when you MC you get there upgrades
No they don't get upgrades other than speed and their +2 armor but by the time you MC them zerg will have +3 attack anyway. 6 armor ultra = 2 ling damage, worthwhile, 3 armor ultra = 5 ling damage, worthless. Unless you're both mining out and you've got spare DA with spare energy, maelstorming a bunch of ultraling is way better.
Goddamit, sairs are WAY more useful after mutas leave the field than DA's will ever be.
On October 12 2009 07:44 AcrossFiveJulys wrote: I think this could really work in the context of the current pvz metagame. There's no concern of missing the maelstrom against the mutas since it has instant effect, and you are going to get 90%+ of the mutas in that maelstrom... then of course the mutas will eat 2 storms and die. Also, since DAs have so many hit points there is no concern of the mutas sniping it first.
Note that if in the worst case scenario the zerg doesn't build any mutas at all, maelstorm is still helpful against hydras anyway, or even against lurkers when you don't have any obs -- maelstrom a few of those bastards before they burrow. And, like people have mentioned, it's no big deal to make the DA... just sack the initial DT harass/map control attempt which doesn't work very well nowadays anyway.
So you ought to have: maelstorm and psi storm researched (which are at the same building so can't be done at the same time), an HT with 150 energy (that's a lot) and a DA with 100? And a sizeable amount of cannons because otherwise he will just split the mutas and laugh at you since none of your units directly attack air. You'll be dead by then. I can imagine DA being done on time with a regular Archon, but with storm you'll be late. This won't work..
Are you not familiar with the standard situation where the toss moves out with 2 or 3 hts (each with enough charge for at least one storm), an archon, a few goons, and a bunch of zealots? A common zerg strategy against this push is to have about 2 groups of hydra and a handful of muta, where the mutas will snipe all the hts and then the hydras are able to take down the rest of the toss army. If you just maelstrom those mutas before they can snipe hts, you can kill them all with 1 storm and the archon/goons or just 2 storms. Of course you still need to take standard precautions against potential muta harass in your main/natural, i.e. if your first sair sees mutas react with another cannon or two and an appropriate number of sairs, but that's no different than normal.
If you read the rest of the thread you'll find people showing why getting the DA + maelstrom makes very little effect on your army size, and just involves getting the DA instead of the initial 2 dts meant for harass and map control.
Instant effect on maelstorm is cool, but what if you misclick? A strategy that totally crumbles because of one bad click is not really reliable
I agree that it does hinge on being able to click on the mutas, but I don't think it's terribly difficult, and even if you misclick, the AOE of maelstrom and quick cast effect means you'll probably catch most of the mutas anyway. I think you would catch most of the mutas 90% of the time if you are moderately accurate with your clicking.
Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play.
On October 12 2009 08:21 selboN wrote: Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play.
Exactly, I think people are missing the point that the mutas are usually out to snipe hts at A SPECIFIC TIMING. If you've gone for DA and Maelstrom instead of hts and storm, you've missed the timing anyway and have just done the job of the mutas for them.
By lategame where the DA's don't cost your timing anymore, P's don't even have that much trouble keeping hts alive.
On October 12 2009 08:21 selboN wrote: Or... We could drop this maelstroming mutas stuff and make a decent amount of corsairs. With the said Corsairs you can harrass overlords and own mutas. Problem solved. There is a reason Dark Archons are reserved for late game play.
Exactly, I think people are missing the point that the mutas are usually out to snipe hts at A SPECIFIC TIMING. If you've gone for DA and Maelstrom instead of hts and storm, you've missed the timing anyway and have just done the job of the mutas for them.
By lategame where the DA's don't cost your timing anymore, P's don't even have that much trouble keeping hts alive.
You are not "going" for anything. You are building 1 Dark Archon. You are NOT researching maelstrom b4 storm, you are NOT building massive amounts of dark templar, if any, after those initial two.
Storm is not going to be delayed at all. You will have the same exact amount of units, energy, and economy just as you would have with the standard "bisu style," the only difference is you are undermining the Zerg by not doing a typical dark templar harrass thatis expected, and instead merging your first two DT to accumulate energy.
In the current "metagame" climate (yeh i said it again) most Zergs are prepared for the typical dark templars that attempt harrass. So the theory on this is, rather than grabbing a couple drone kills or having an unsuccessful harrass you ideally will instead have a situation where the Zerg put the "standard" defense in place at the typical DT harrass locations, and then you are NOT harrassing, but prepping for the mid-game move out by having that one DA.
Everything after that is exactly the same as it is during a "standard game/style" except you have 1 dark archon in play, and you research maelstrom slightly before you plan to move out, either to secure a third or attack the Zerg, which is where the maelstrom comes in vs the muta snipe group.
Corsair are of course effective vs Mutalisk, but the key difference here is that rather than accumulating corsairs you are pouring all of that potential Sair money into gateway based units and you will be able to stop the Mutas.
I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources).
On October 12 2009 09:00 meegrean wrote: I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources).
I think the key to using the Dark Archon to defend the mutalisks is surprise like you said if they see it they obviously arent gonna make mutas and your gonna end up with a dark archon that can still disable part of the zergs army for a bit so i dont see it being totally useless. But as we both said surprise is what you need here to make this effective.
I think if you can ge the timing correct to catch the mutas and end up winning th game still then this could very much cause a metagame shift in favor of protoss, thus ending the Z>>>>P debate alot of people are having recently with the 3hatch->5hatch build.
EDIT : though i disagree with the wasted resources part, as someone said above youre gonna end up making DT to harass anyway so its not like youre wasting money on anything except maelstrom. so in reality even if they dont make mutas you lose (100/100?) or something like that, which isnt all that much anyways.
On October 12 2009 09:00 meegrean wrote: I think it is important that the Zerg does not see your dark archon or they could just react by making an extra control group of lurkers instead of mutalisks which effectively made you waste 350 minerals and 300 gas (money and gas that could be spent for 1 gateway, 1 pylon and 2 high templars, and not to mention the time spent for adding energy). Maelstorm is not very effective against lurker contains.
Getting a dark archon with maelstorm at a specific timing could be a game-changing counter, but I think it depends too much on whether the Zerg sees your dark archon and builds mutalisks or not. Most players prefer to take control of the game into their own hands and for me, building a dark archon is kinda like getting an early wraith in tvp because you expected reaver harass (and if it doesn't come, you would have wasted resources).
I think the key to using the Dark Archon to defend the mutalisks is surprise like you said if they see it they obviously arent gonna make mutas and your gonna end up with a dark archon that can still disable part of the zergs army for a bit so i dont see it being totally useless. But as we both said surprise is what you need here to make this effective.
I think if you can ge the timing correct to catch the mutas and end up winning th game still then this could very much cause a metagame shift in favor of protoss, thus ending the Z>>>>P debate alot of people are having recently with the 3hatch->5hatch build.
EDIT : though i disagree with the wasted resources part, as someone said above youre gonna end up making DT to harass anyway so its not like youre wasting money on anything except maelstrom. so in reality even if they dont make mutas you lose (100/100?) or something like that, which isnt all that much anyways.
but if they don't make mutas then you don't resource maelstorm right? (maelstorm researches fast) I don't think any resources are wasted. I would personally just make the 2 dt and use them to harass anyways and just force them to play cautious and make a little more defense. Try hard not to lose the dt and just bring them back home for DA when they do their job. Make sense?
So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective?
C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop.
Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed.
the only difference is you are undermining the Zerg by not doing a typical dark templar harrass thatis expected, and instead merging your first two DT to accumulate energy.
This line alone will win the ineptitude contest. If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar.
I'm not saying this won't work at all. In a perfect world with pink butterflies, maybe it will. I'm saying this lacks versatility. Totally, it will fail in 10x more situations than it will win and you always have to assume everything will go your way beforehand to conserve energy. And it's much easier to scout than you apparently think, zergs suicide lings into your army for a reason.
On October 12 2009 09:41 BluzMan wrote: So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective?
C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop.
Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed.
the only difference is you are undermining the Zerg by not doing a typical dark templar harrass thatis expected, and instead merging your first two DT to accumulate energy.
This line alone will win the ineptitude contest. If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar.
I'm not saying this won't work at all. In a perfect world with pink butterflies, maybe it will. I'm saying this lacks versatility. Totally, it will fail in 10x more situations than it will win and you always have to assume everything will go your way beforehand to conserve energy. And it's much easier to scout than you apparently think, zergs suicide lings into your army for a reason.
No where does this need to be a suprise. The TS doesn't even mention that. DA's use would be evident after that first Maelstrom, simply the threat of taking away a zergs mobility is a nightmare for a zerg, who relies on his large fast armies. I mean almost every single commonly uses zerg unit has a speed upgrade except for lurkers and defilers and they are already pretty fast.
SO now imagine you are a zerg player who has mutas and knows that your opponent has DA's, are you going to run in and try to harass when you know there is a possibility of losing all your mutas in one go? NO.
And the DA's are not limited in usage to stopping muta harass, something some people forget. That applications of Maelstrom are incredibly versatile, from getting lurkers before they burrow to killing lings and hydras who are trying to dodge storms, to stopping drops simply by maelstroming them as they come in...
As for the not using the dt's to harass, alot of time the point of harassment is not to do damage, rather the threat that you can do damage, dt's in PvZ are not intended to kill the zerg (duh because the have overlords everywhere) even in the Bisu build, rather they are to gain map control and prevent the zerg from taking expos, thus if you let the zerg know you have Dt's and then morph them into a DA, you have accomplished your goal.
On October 12 2009 09:41 BluzMan wrote: So now you try to justify a "metagame shift" with a tactic that requires surprise to be effective?
C'mon, good builds are good because they are versatile, either being prepared for a multitude of scenarios or forcing the opponent to do that what you want. A DA with mind control can totally rape a fast drop terran, the problem arises when a terran does not drop.
Zerg will scout your force with a suicide ling and will see your DA, surprise failed.
If zerg sees you make a DA and realize that mutas are futile, then you have one less thing to worry about. I think it's possible that getting a DA, which is helpful against other zerg strats as well as muta, might be worth eliminating the muta threat.
If you're not planning to harass, just DON'T build those DT! That easy, get another archon! Producing harassing units to not harass is just stupid, especially in the case when they are invisible because then the zerg will not even assume anything. Likewise, zerg doesn't exclusively produce mutas to snipe your templar.
You still aren't getting it. Let me spell it out for you. We are saying that getting the DA fits in well with current standard toss builds, as in if you skip the DTs and get a DA instead, you'll have the same army as normal but without the harass units. With the DA with maelstrom, you have a hard counter to a zerg that makes muta to snipe hts. Yes, you can make an archon instead of the DA, but that isn't stopping the muta sniping problem. So in essence, getting the DA is a hard counter to one zerg option (ht sniping mutas), and is helpful against other zerg options as well.
On October 12 2009 10:10 cosiant wrote: Looks like some people need to see that epic game where Reach and Grrr... used DAs. Shows their real worth.
Yes but in both cases the DA's were used in lategame. reach vs chojja (Might have spelled that wrong) reach uses the da's to counter the 2-3 control groups of devours.
grr vs zerglee, grr uses da combined with archon and storm to whittle away ultraling armies.
Reach and Grrr would lose to a modern B-team zerg in a humiliating way. Look, it's as simple as it gets - PvZ is won in midgame. Whether it's a decisive push or a drag into lategame, it's where you set your ground for the later play and whoever manages to get the momentum at midgame usually wins the whole game. Toss is always at a deficiency in midgame no matter what he does. Every single piece of minerals and gas is on the block and there's no wasting them because otherwise you die, that's what PvZ has been for ages and it's not gonna change. No, 100/100 is not a neglible amount of money.
Most modern PvZ's are lost because of inept corsair usage. Most zergs open with spire and see what happens - if you lose your first corsair to scourge, all other sairs you build are useless. If you lose the first one, a good zerg will never allow you to make a critical mass of them, therefore even more of your resources you spent on sairs 2 and 3 have gone to waste. That's what happens to worse tosses, even then they sometimes keep building corsairs dumping even more money only to lose them eventually. Sairs cost a lot of gas (with 40 buildtime they eat up slightly less gas than a gate producing non-stop HT), yes, and that is why toss doesn't have other forms of antiair ready when mutas come. But don't mistake those late reactionary mutas for a staple zerg strat. Once again - lose first sair, continue sair production and muta/scourge will eat you alive.
Massing mutas when toss has archons, corsairs, HT, observers and DA is like 5 minutes late. If anything, I've only seen successful late mutalisks when toss dumped his first corsairs and slowed down his ground tech.
People here seem to ignore the simple fact that there is no magic that forces zerg to stack mutas. If you only have DA/HT to defend your base, he will just fly unstacked over your minerals and watch in awe how you storm your own probes. If you have DA/HT/Archon/Sair and mutas still didn't come, they won't unless you fuck up.
Late game DA rock vs Ultraling on maps like Tau Cross or Luna. But that's a different story, I can only imagine a midgame DA morph as a desperation effort when you already have DT and your harass is somehow falling apart before it started (being lurker contained on 2 bases with no corsair to escort a shuttle in a scourge-filled sky looks like a good scenario) but if you're not going to do damage with DT, just don't build them. It's easier and cheaper, DA don't provide anything other than unstable ability to freeze a bunch of units for 4 seconds and much unlike War3, gameplay in SC doesn't revolve around one crucial cast of one ability, you've gotta stay consistent. On the other hand, people losing their harassing DT for nothing are not executing a strategy, they are failing it. That's no metagame shift, just their nerves/ineptitude.
Anyway, there's so much wrong with the above justification that I'm tired. The most obvious and completely unbeatable argumentation is the fact that nobody is doing it. Explaining why they don't might make someone understand the MU better. Explaining why they should helps noone.
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
Mind sharing one?
I can't remember who it was but there is a FPVOD somewhere on TL (and YT) where a foreigner does it. I think it was white-ra or something.
On October 12 2009 05:13 slOosh wrote: It seems a bit costly though. You have two dts + the research cost. It would have to come after storm research though, or otherwise muta harass would be too dangerous. I mean, sair/dt defends well against mutas, but aren't there usually ht to help block?
And with a sair/dt build, P would be focused on limiting the Z to maybe 3 bases max since the dts would prevent expos. Yet the investment into DA would allow zerg to macro up and could afford the loss in mutas thanks to the increase in economy.
I would think this would only be viable on certain maps, ones where muta harass would be weak or the 3rd/ 4th base extremely hard to take (perhaps HBR??)
On October 12 2009 11:41 Gnarly wrote: Aside from DA play in PvZ, what about PvP? You see people tech to reavers or storm often, and DAs can feedback HT's and MC shuttles with reavers in them, or out... It would require a bit more precise clicking but if you're good then so what? Feedback is 50, and DAs can have 250 energy = 5 HT for one DA. 250/750 for what 250/200? Or a possible 900/400 for getting 2 reavers in a shuttle, with scarabs built, from one MC. I believe any possible economic setback by going DA is already negated at this point. Just keep them alive as long as possible.
there was a multitude of reasons why DA werent viable at all in PvP.
i dont tihnk you can survive the first reaver attack when youre investing all your tech into dark archons and mind control.
just the presence of a DA can make a zerg user be a little more careful with his mutas or else they'll be maelstromed and sniped. also, the presence of a DA might make the zerg user think "uh oh, he has a plan up his sleeve"
the problem with the DA is that it takes up too many resources and that it can die just about as easily as a templar can to muta snipe. plus, it's a big red ball that sticks out like a sore thumb, so it's easily spotted.
On October 12 2009 11:53 FabledIntegral wrote: I've seen much attempt to do this... and fail... he successfully maelstormed the mutas but still lost hte game... too expensive of a unit.
On October 12 2009 11:41 Gnarly wrote: Aside from DA play in PvZ, what about PvP? You see people tech to reavers or storm often, and DAs can feedback HT's and MC shuttles with reavers in them, or out... It would require a bit more precise clicking but if you're good then so what? Feedback is 50, and DAs can have 250 energy = 5 HT for one DA. 250/750 for what 250/200? Or a possible 900/400 for getting 2 reavers in a shuttle, with scarabs built, from one MC. I believe any possible economic setback by going DA is already negated at this point. Just keep them alive as long as possible.
there was a multitude of reasons why DA werent viable at all in PvP.
i dont tihnk you can survive the first reaver attack when youre investing all your tech into dark archons and mind control.
Why not find ways to be able to survive attacks? If you use good tactics, you can buy time to be able to defend a possible attack that could be coming if your opponents knows exactly what to do in the situation that he knew you were investing all of your tech into DA. Just think a few steps ahead of his game.
Find a way to survive? Wtf... that isn't advice at all, that's "i'm not going to address the point whatsoever and just say 'play better'."
On October 12 2009 11:01 BluzMan wrote: Reach and Grrr would lose to a modern B-team zerg in a humiliating way.
Lots of stupidity in that statement... Reach can still beat A team Zergs... and by "can" I mean "still does."
On October 12 2009 11:41 Gnarly wrote: Aside from DA play in PvZ, what about PvP? You see people tech to reavers or storm often, and DAs can feedback HT's and MC shuttles with reavers in them, or out... It would require a bit more precise clicking but if you're good then so what? Feedback is 50, and DAs can have 250 energy = 5 HT for one DA. 250/750 for what 250/200? Or a possible 900/400 for getting 2 reavers in a shuttle, with scarabs built, from one MC. I believe any possible economic setback by going DA is already negated at this point. Just keep them alive as long as possible.
there was a multitude of reasons why DA werent viable at all in PvP.
i dont tihnk you can survive the first reaver attack when youre investing all your tech into dark archons and mind control.
Er? Violet used them very effectively mid game vs Guemchi. The only viable purpose of them is feedbacking HTs, and that might be a bit too much of an apm sink. They get seen pretty frequently to counter super fast carriers as well, but that's gone out of style pvp.
They also can work well at preventing recalls, much more effective than science vessels actually, and it does a ton of damage to the arbiter as well.
Aside from some of the dumb comments like mind controlling tanks and such... I think DA's have a lot in common with Valkyries in TvZ. Valks were thought to be such horrible units and now they are built in a good number of games to deny muta harass which is what op suggested about DA's. It just takes a little effort from a good protoss player (NOT ME!! ) to figure out when/why to build DA's and make it a common thing to do.
At one time or another Fast Expanding with protoss was considered cheese or an act of desperation. Now 2 gate and 1 gate tech are considered the obsolete builds and FE is mainstream.... funny how things work isn't it.
Edit: If queens and DA's become mainstream I'll have a lot of fun watching ZvP's. (I mean mainstream as in built in at least a 1/3 of the games, like valks have currently gained popularity.)
I'm a really low level p player but I think Mael is horribly underused. It's basically free kills. I used to play this one UMS map that was sort of lotrish and one race had a DA hero and he could turn the tide of every battle with a well placed mael.
Of course, I guess I just don't understand the game like some of you guys. Melee is not UMS obviously. But I still think it's underused.
On October 12 2009 14:56 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm a really low level p player but I think Mael is horribly underused. It's basically free kills. I used to play this one UMS map that was sort of lotrish and one race had a DA hero and he could turn the tide of every battle with a well placed mael.
Of course, I guess I just don't understand the game like some of you guys. Melee is not UMS obviously. But I still think it's underused.
Eh... not really any relevance... it's not basically free kills, and money spent on that DA for maelstorm is money you aren't spending elsewhere realize.
I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
<grabs flame shield>
Then show it in a replay. You comment about your skill, so I'll take it you don't understand timings too well. A protoss on 2 base is fairly gas starved (despite still having more gas than they used to play off the old builds). Building a dark archon and maelstorm would have to take priority after getting high templar. High templar are necessary from getting absolutely overwhelmed by hydralisks. If you build Dark Archons, that's less high templar you have, as well as less DT to harass. The only use it has whatsoever is maelstorm. It's nearly completely useless midgame except to stop mutalisks - and if you can't effectively stop them after that single maelstorm you're kinda fucked. DA aren't exactly too hard to snipe either, they have only 200/25 (shields/hp) as opposed to archons. And anyways, you've already given up the cost of two high templar anyways, reducing the effective storms you could do vs hydralisks anyways. Dark Archons also will just run up to the enemy when selected with other units, which is the issue with excess APM. You have to worry about it because of it's speed, and hydralisks will pick it off in a second (high templar, in contrast, lag behind because of a slower speed). Maelstorms vs hydralisks just don't cut it in terms of effectiveness.
I'm not sure how you aren't impressed or whatever, what do you think they could do better. They obviously spend 10+ hours daily practicing to improve their gameplay, and if they say they can't find ways to do it, what makes you think you could make up for the cost of teching it..? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DA couldn't be implemented, but timings are the most key factor when debating on whether or not it's feasible.
Like in Calm vs Movie yesterday, by the time Calm made mutas, Movie had a huge army on the ground. Getting DAs instead of 3? zealots and 2? dragoons but having 3 more templar is worth it. It's honestly not as big of a cost as it seems.
On October 12 2009 15:25 Avidkeystamper wrote: Like in Calm vs Movie yesterday, by the time Calm made mutas, Movie had a huge army on the ground. Getting DAs instead of 3? zealots and 2? dragoons but having 3 more templar is worth it. It's honestly not as big of a cost as it seems.
Wouldn't you want to tech both storm and templar energy before maelstorm though? EVERY game I've ever seen a progamer use a DA he lets the DA run ahead with the zealots and it gets sniped =/. Maybe better control is necessary but if you have to go through all those techs... I dunno. It also doesn't ENSURE that you won't lose any high templar...
i dont see why researching maelstrom would be better than just getting a few extra hts?
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
<grabs flame shield>
trying to macro and control units all over the map is alot harder to microing a few units in a UMS
Hi avilo. I am JMave and I really like your idea about DAs. I will be taking some time off today to go and try make a build to cater for a DA.
What most people don't really notice is the amount of attention you need to spend to protect your HTs right when he does a muta switch to snipe off templars. Since mutas are clumped when they attack, a maelstrom will totally catch all the mutas and it can leave for a few decent storms to wipe out the muta clump.
You are not likely to make archons to counter the muta threat at the stage where you push out because you will need the storms to counter the hydras. Even then, you'd be getting more goons to fend off the mutalisks and not many people have the Bisu skill of controlling their HTs. So I think the little investment in DAs can really work out with the muta threat and significantly change the game play.
DAs are not useless right when they take out the mutas.. a nice spread out maelstrom of 2 can kill an entire group of hydras with storms or even stall his army right when lurkers are formed.
I think we should just look into this idea more and expand instead of shutting it down.
Jangbi failed in cannoning his nat&main, then he cancelled his whole timing attack running back home for no reason.
Basically, I totally agree with the op. Current mid-game PvZ problem is that with a lot of hydra, even if Z suicides a stack of mutas to kill templars, hydra just absolutely rolls the protoss army. "a good number of sairs" doesn't work too good since all mutas need to do is kill high templars. Once this is done, zerg has army dominance up to next wave of HTs - which usually translates into safe zerg 4th and, depending on the map, dead protoss 3rd. Sairs don't stop mutas immediately, unlike DA.
Having a single DA is well worth it with current 5hatch hydra trends. Basically, there are 2 switches that protosses hates these days: 1)Muta HT snipe. 2)Hydra drop in main on gateways. DA helps with both.
And the most improtant point, imo, is that if zerg "sees the DA" and decides not to do any of those 2 switches, he's pretty fucked. Mass hydra/lurk head on just melts against storm anyway. And having 1 to 2(if you usually skip DTs) less templar for 2 maelstroms in that situation wouldn't matter much because Z was unable to force you back home/reduce templar count.
I myself'd add maelstrom into army in a situation where i have obs and cannoned main/nat, though.
I think this happened in one of the Proleague games or something few months ago on HBR. Went pretty well in fending off mutas (as long as you don't get your DA seen until it's too late).
I guess it's viable in going DA + Maelstrom + 1 or 2 archons if you're SURE that he's going mutas (at least one group). After that, you can immediately push out with zealots and archons (which killed the mutas) and deal damage to the Zerg's 2nd expansion, which should have very little (if any) defense at that point of time.
On October 12 2009 19:23 konadora wrote: I think this happened in one of the Proleague games or something few months ago on HBR. Went pretty well in fending off mutas (as long as you don't get your DA seen until it's too late).
I guess it's viable in going DA + Maelstrom + 1 or 2 archons if you're SURE that he's going mutas (at least one group). After that, you can immediately push out with zealots and archons (which killed the mutas) and deal damage to the Zerg's 2nd expansion, which should have very little (if any) defense at that point of time.
PL spoiler for Wemade vs Khan below...click at your own risk + Show Spoiler +
this also just happened with jangbi's game and he failled horrible with DA's and roro lolstomped him afterwards so =/...yeah
I don't agree with people saying DAs are too micro heavy. The time when maelstrom is cast rarely falls together with the time when storm is cast, and even then it actually makes it easier to micro once you get the hang of it.
The situations: Anything without mutas: Usually storm takes priority, unless you spot a big clump of units that will likely move out of your storms or will deal heavy damage even while stormed. For example a group of hydras or scourge aiming for your observers should be maelstromed instead of stormed, That will leave you plenty of time to cast your storms better.
Only mutas: If you have maelstrom, use it. Storm is useless against mutas compared to maelstrom. Not only will the mutas fly out of it before they take serious damage, you also will hit your own units more than 50% of the time. Often you will even kill the HT that the zerg wanted to snipe. Maelstrom saves all your HTs and indirectly kills all mutas.
Mutas + other units: Here the mutas will try to snipe your HTs, while the rest of the zergs army engages your army. You will have to cast all storms in a very short time because otherwise all your HTs will be sniped. Because of that, your storms won't hit as many units as they could. If you cast one maelstrom at first, you can focus on getting good storms out.
So if you know if there are mutas, always select your DA at first and check for targets. If you know there are no mutas, select an HT first. If you don't know, I'd start with the DA because it immediately nullifies a threat, as opposed to stroms which take a while to kill a unit.
The key to using DAs is to find a proper attack timing where it is save to get a DA without allowing the zerg to macro up too much. That DA supported attack should be strong enough to cancel all economical advantages the zerg might have gained.
Feedback defilers while zerg charges into reavers and storms, love the sight. The problem is I usually can't get DA with spells in mid game unless I can take a third gas relatively early or else my normal army will be suffering or I don't have enough storms.
im no pvz expert but i defiantly think its time for pvz to get evolved because as it is now i feel like zergs r winning against protoss users everywhere
i think use of dark archon could create some great timing attacks or even just use it in bigger battles later game vs ultralisks (altho thats nothing new as OP mentioned :p)
also the thing about micro maps is that your only goal is to destroy your opponents army. in a real game there are tons of factors so the actual "micro" is just a small part of the actual micro, i hope u understand this xd,
Once your Archives finish, you build 2 DT anyway with that BO. Your Zealot attack shows you, if there are weak points for DT to sneak into. If there aren't any, your harassment would be ineffective anyway, so you invest into the later game by getting a DA. With that timing, he might have 200/200 Energy once the Mutas arrive. As I said, when playing a competent player, the chance your DT do nothing might be greater than to be successful with them.
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
<grabs flame shield>
because the new style of gameplay requires more macro than micro. It doesn't matter if u lose 1 more unit if u have 5 more because of that coming up.
I think the idea is pretty good, we just have to play it over and over again until we refine it and find the best timing for it.
Those complaining about "apm intensive" should realize that terrans and zergs require a lot of amp... then why in hell protoss should be the only "less apm intensive"... I guess this would help getting rid of the "1a2a3a toss player" joke.
Storming requires good apm and maelstorm is the same thing... I dont see where the problem is.
Also those saying that is "resource intensive" should read carefully. In normal bisu builds you make 2 DTs to harass, so... you check if you can harass and if not then you merge them, by that time your storm is already researched (or finishing) and you have 2-4 hts... you can start researching maelstorm soon so where is the big deal?
I would say that the key here is that, your first timing attack should be normal, and you should keep your DA at home waiting for muta harass and gaining energy... after your first attack finishes and you get ready for your second pass (this time with HTs or Archons) then you include your DA in to the mix to punish the hell out of the zerg.
Two scenarios here:
He has a little clump of mutas to snipe your HTs, bingo you have a main use for your DA. Maelstorm -> Storm them and thats it, you have the upper hand.
He went mass hydras or lurkerling, then you will play normally except for the fact that 1) you will try to maelstorm his lurkers *before* burring = instant win/pretty big advantage 2) he burried his lurkers but you maelstorm/storm his hydras allowing you to keep your obs alive a little longer and rape his lurkers...
For me it looks like a win/win situation here.
And no you dont have to hide your DA... when a zerg sees a DA he should be smart enough to not try muta harass or drop... which gives you little bit of time to macro AND you know that his "only option" is a contain, which you are smart enough to be prepared for it, right?
If you've had a chance to watch several of Sangho's games, he is one of the few progamers that actually uses the big red blobs on a semi-regular basis. I've seen 3 of his games where he has made DAs and if I recall he ended up going 2-1 in those games. The thing about using dark archons is that your opponent CANNOT see them if you really want them to be useful against the muta batch - if the zerg sees it then he just won't make the muta batch lol, instead he will just grab another expo. Its a difficult unit to predict if the metagame will really change around, but I see the validity of your point and it would be awesome to see mind controlled ultras or huge drops being repelled by a giant mael on all of the ovies coming in :D.
Other people have touched on this, but it can't really be a "metagame" shift because if protoss started doing DA every game, zerg would just stop making the mutas at that timing and then protoss would be behind.
It can never be a standard opening because if you know it's coming, it's too easy to counter.
On October 12 2009 15:07 Ian Ian Ian wrote: I'm an awful player and I could stll bet that I could eliminate enough units from an enemy zerg to balance the cost of teching to it.
I don't even really understand why everyone complains so much about microing it :s
I recently started meleeing after playing alot of UMS and I am astounded by the APM of some players, but when watching fpvods of progamers I am not impressed by their battle micro at all, it's really not that great and imo, could use improvement.
<grabs flame shield>
because the new style of gameplay requires more macro than micro. It doesn't matter if u lose 1 more unit if u have 5 more because of that coming up.
If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong.
On October 13 2009 01:12 KnightOfNi wrote: If you've had a chance to watch several of Sangho's games, he is one of the few progamers that actually uses the big red blobs on a semi-regular basis. I've seen 3 of his games where he has made DAs and if I recall he ended up going 2-1 in those games. The thing about using dark archons is that your opponent CANNOT see them if you really want them to be useful against the muta batch - if the zerg sees it then he just won't make the muta batch lol, instead he will just grab another expo. Its a difficult unit to predict if the metagame will really change around, but I see the validity of your point and it would be awesome to see mind controlled ultras or huge drops being repelled by a giant mael on all of the ovies coming in :D.
On October 13 2009 01:20 Neverborn wrote: Other people have touched on this, but it can't really be a "metagame" shift because if protoss started doing DA every game, zerg would just stop making the mutas at that timing and then protoss would be behind.
It can never be a standard opening because if you know it's coming, it's too easy to counter.
If zergs don't make any mutas to snipe templars, the protoss will have plenty of storms ready. Mass hydra certainly has a hard time if there are so many HTs left (that's why the muta switch was introduced, you'd rather have 9 mutas than 12-15 hydras, even if the mutas only kill a few HTs and die in the process). Also, toss doesn't have to merge all his HTs after casting if they are safe from mutas, and can instead pull them back and spend the gas on goons/reavers. Of course this works best against mass hydra armies, because against any ling heavy army you'd want to have more archons, while archons suck against hydras.
Imo DA encourages fairly defensive lurker/ling (aiming for map control) from the zergs side, because both mutas and hydras have trouble against DA supported armies. Lurkers are so fat that you rarely can maelstom many of them, and maelstrom is less effective on lings too imo. Also, once the lurkers are set up, maelstrom does nothing. So you'd need a good gameplan that prepares for lurk/ling. But even if all the DA achieves is pushing the zerg into using lurk/ling (or any other single strat), without granting any player a decent advantage, it would definately help toss. Having to prepare for a single unit composition only makes it much easier to figure out a way to beat it.
Jangbi went early 1 archon 1 DA but pushed everything out without any defence at home (not even cannons) along his mining lines.
As a result Roro with mutas just flew in, raped probes at the nat, flew to the main and raped again, went around to snipe the 3rd base attempt, and came back for more probe goodness. The DA didnt manage to get off a maelstrom as it was stuck outside in the field. No templar were defending and after the 1st muta harass jangbi's probecount suffered such that he could either macro or make cannons, and he chose to maintain his push and ultimately lost to a group of repeatedly marauding mutas
DAs seem like the next step but the clunkiness has to be solved by Protosses with extremely keen gamesense, control and positioning. If a mael+storm actually rapes a ctrl group of mutas however that can indeed be gamechanging.
On October 13 2009 02:22 Ian Ian Ian wrote: If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong.
Have you ever played protoss before? Seriously.
You're acting as if having 300 apm is no big deal. Go play some melee games and not UMS games and you'll understand exactly what everybody is talking about.
The cost of the DA is at least 1 ht and 2 zealots. Just the HT could have netted you at least 5 hydra kills or something.
Oh, and offtopic: Protoss isn't 1a2a3a at higher levels.
I've played other races and when you're trying to micro an army (sair reaver) where you could lose 1000+ minerals and 500+ gas in 2 or 3 seconds is just as hard as say....muta micro.
Sure, people might think that you can just 1a2a3a4a5a the crap out of terrans and zergs at D ranks, but when they begin to follow that strategy against better terrans and zergs, they get crushed, hence why most protosses cap at C.
I think this could work if Dts did some damage to Z's eco. And then switching to Dark Archon for Maelstorm just in time that Mutalisk gets out but Protoss need tons of timing to pull this off because you basically have to get one Archon out to kill off the Maelstormed Mutalisk and then get ready for a Hydralisk rush with Lurker or Lings, it COULD work but not 100% at time.
On October 13 2009 02:22 Ian Ian Ian wrote: If really small amounts of units being lost aren't too important, then it's not like the units you lose for the cost of DA will kill you either. And it's not that big of a cost, and if it comes after storm, your not really losing anything, and against zerg, which is bio heavy, I can't see you not making use of it.
And raptor really gets the point across that I was trying to make. Toss is so much a macro game right now, if your honestly complaining about mael because you need micro to use it, then well.. :/ And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong.
Have you ever played protoss before? Seriously.
You're acting as if having 300 apm is no big deal. Go play some melee games and not UMS games and you'll understand exactly what everybody is talking about.
The cost of the DA is at least 1 ht and 2 zealots. Just the HT could have netted you at least 5 hydra kills or something.
Oh, and offtopic: Protoss isn't 1a2a3a at higher levels.
I've played other races and when you're trying to micro an army (sair reaver) where you could lose 1000+ minerals and 500+ gas in 2 or 3 seconds is just as hard as say....muta micro.
Sure, people might think that you can just 1a2a3a4a5a the crap out of terrans and zergs at D ranks, but when they begin to follow that strategy against better terrans and zergs, they get crushed, hence why most protosses cap at C.
Have you ever passed an English class before? Seriously?
I have no fucking idea how you can get that I think 300 APM is no big deal out of
And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong
The point I'm trying to make is that 300 APM is a big deal, and players that can do that should surely be able to control one unit. And the fact that high level players complain about being able to micro a DA is just sad.
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down.. I lol @ the fact that you can't see that. In a deciding battle if you can manage to protect your templars from muta harass then that is pay off enough imo. Not to mention that if you manage to get more then one mael off, you can completely freeze another group of hydra which can be immediately targetted and by a storm that they cannot dodge.
And imo, progamers shouldn't be able to use that excuse. With their APM around 300 and they can't find time to cast mael, somethings wrong
The point I'm trying to make is that 300 APM is a big deal, and players that can do that should surely be able to control one unit.
You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA.
And the fact that high level players complain about being able to micro a DA is just sad.
I salute you, player who claims he is superior to jaedong.
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down..
kk, gl with that
A DA is going to net you way more kills then a templar and 2 zealots. Hands down.. I lol @ the fact that you can't see that. In a deciding battle if you can manage to protect your templars from muta harass then that is pay off enough imo.
I lol @ the fact that to be able to actually hit anything with maelstrom you'd be sacrificing much more than you would gain, unless you happen to get lucky and catch like, 8 mutas with your DA. Even if you did, subtract that 350 minerals and 300 gas you spent to do it, and also subtract the time that you took to actually do that, and now, perhaps the profit is less worth it.
Not to mention that if you manage to get more then one mael off, you can completely freeze another group of hydra which can be immediately targetted and by a storm that they cannot dodge.
Or, I could just cast three storms instead of 1 and still have an extra 3 zealots!
Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right?
UMS players have ~30 apm, and they can afford to spend 20 seconds to micro one unit around because they don't have anything else to do.
EDIT: Just saw this:
On October 13 2009 03:44 spinesheath wrote: But the DA indirectly nets 9 muta kills plus 4 times 5 hydra kills through 2-4 saved HTs.
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
There is no reason progamers cannot learn to control a dark archon the same way they've learned to control all the other units with which they've spent countless hours practicing their control. This has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with familiarity: protoss players regularly bring high templars with their armies, even though they are slow and easily sniped, and often miss completely when they storm. Dark archons are not slow or easily sniped, they just have a different role and it's going to take a bit before the kinks are worked out.
Also, just FYI ian has 200 apm in melee, he's just bad at it from lack of experience. Dismissing UMS players is fun until they can challenge you in melee and win, meanwhile you have absolutely no chance whatsoever vs him in diplo.
Another idea: can you just hide the Dark Archon inside the Shuttle so they won't find out? Dark Archon can also feedback Defilers for late game as well rendering Dark Swarm useless, they are REALLY fun to play around with actually.
When the muta flock comes do you know what toss players do? They storm their hardest to try and kill them before all those HTs get picked off. That's clicking a tiny unit, pressing a hotkey, then clicking on the mutalisks or predicting where they are going, hoping to god you do enough damage to not lose the actual damaging part of your army.
A Dark Archon is much easier. You click one FAT unit that sticks out from your army with it's garish colour, press a hotkey, and then click the mutas. There is no prediction. No guessing. And if that one click works the zerg loses 1.1k min/gas. Don't people understand how unbelievably cost effective that is?
And something else a lot of people don't understand - there's not really any cost to this. You don't lose a timing window, your army doesn't magically shrink to half size. The only cost is the cost of researching maelstrom. Toss players are already making the 2 DTs required, the only difference now is that after they roam the map a little they come back and morph into a dark archon.
A progamer like Jangbi isn't trying this out just for kicks in proleague. It's something he thinks has actual merit and there's obviously a reason for that. I'm not going to say that this is the next evolution of toss gameplay, but the fact that the vast majority of people here trying to shoot this down don't even seem to understand what it takes to add in this DA is shocking.
And why do you think there needs to be any surprise element? Zerg sees DA -> Zerg doesn't make mutas. Mission accomplished. Now the footing is completely equal - toss gets to keep his HT, zerg makes lurkers instead. If the zerg made mutas, had them all raped by the DA, protoss would win every game because you can't just throw away 1k min and gas for free. Try and understand this before you shoot it down. Most of the people commenting here haven't even taken the time to think about it.
Ooh, bringing out the insults now eh? How mature...
Yeah actually I was mocking you. I guess you didn't get it.
You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA
.
Sorry, I forgot that the God-King Jaedong sent out a decree about protoss players not being able to use DA's.
Just because they are both spellcasters doesn't mean they are the same.
And I feel that my experience of playing UMS games would actually help in this situation. I would find it incredibly easy to spot the muta's, grab my DA and hit them with a mael. This is due to the fact that I spend too much of my time in melee micoring my units and not enough macroing. But again, that's just experience. And I'm a bad player. If I can do it I'm sure a progamer can.
Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right?
Consdiering that most players follow the popular bisu build now in zvp, they have 2 dark templar's out anyways, so really the only "cost" you have to make up for is the research for mael.
Your right about my templar's having no energy though. I forgot that DA's magically sap energy from HT's and that if I didn't have a DA they'd magically have more energy even though they would've been created at the same time. Seriously, sorry for my noobiness. /end sarcasm
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
Imo saving HT's and taking out a group of muta's is worth whatever the fuck it is you are argueing for.
And intergral you flatter me, that's only on a really good day. Lol. But your point rings true, dismissing my ideas simply because I used to play UMS just shows ignorance on your part, Arctix. I'll do the same and assume your some noob because you have <20 posts. Go ignorance!
People, your argument that it's laughable for a progamer to complain about maelstorm casting is really working against you. They are perfectly able to do that and yet they don't. There is a reason why.
And yet, they're trying. I don't think the issue of control has ever, ever been the problem with dark archons, it's always been the fact that having another storm is infinitely better. Now we're in a situation where all having that extra HT does is give mutalisks something else to kill.
You have no idea how many things you have to do, even when they have 300 apm. It's proven that even JAEDONG said that it took too much micro to use queens, and i would say that DAs are along the same line... You're acting as if, oh, hi, lets press the maelstrom button in the bottom right and merrily take 20 seconds to click on the mutalisk while your whole army gets owned by hydralisks.
Storming and microing your other shit while macroing in your base while teching while thinking about your game plan while thinking strategically takes priority over a DA
.
Sorry, I forgot that the God-King Jaedong sent out a decree about protoss players not being able to use DA's.
Just because they are both spellcasters doesn't mean they are the same.
And I feel that my experience of playing UMS games would actually help in this situation. I would find it incredibly easy to spot the muta's, grab my DA and hit them with a mael. This is due to the fact that I spend too much of my time in melee micoring my units and not enough macroing. But again, that's just experience. And I'm a bad player. If I can do it I'm sure a progamer can.
Here's a tip: Play some more melee games, try the strategy, and you'll understand why people with 300 apm can't afford to do it. I assure you that you'll either fuck up your maelstrom or spend 15-30 seconds trying to do it, then realize the zerg has 36 hydras waiting for your 2 templar with no energy for storm, 7 zealots, and 7 dragoons. oh! we can't forget the DA, which is perfectly useful against 36 hydras and can net you 12 kills, right?
Consdiering that most players follow the popular bisu build now in zvp, they have 2 dark templar's out anyways, so really the only "cost" you have to make up for is the research for mael.
Your right about my templar's having no energy though. I forgot that DA's magically sap energy from HT's and that if I didn't have a DA they'd magically have more energy even though they would've been created at the same time. Seriously, sorry for my noobiness. /end sarcasm
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
Imo saving HT's and taking out a group of muta's is worth whatever the fuck it is you are argueing for.
And intergral you flatter me, that's only on a really good day. Lol. But your point rings true, dismissing my ideas simply because I used to play UMS just shows ignorance on your part, Arctix. I'll do the same and assume your some noob because you have <20 posts. Go ignorance!
Actually thinking about it, the really amazing thing about this idea, is how perfectly a protoss player can transition the usual stargate>citadel>archive+gw>2dt's+2gw>templars+zea/goon
play into an army with 1 DA. Think about it. Most of the time we open with this opening is to 1) stop zerg taking an easy 4th (think savior) 2) force an OL in each base, sunkens, and units 3) force research OL speed before zerg can attack/expand safely
However, nowadays, zergs are so used to it and goes 5 hatch on 3 bases, and makes sure that sunkens and ol's are up to "greet" the 2 dt's sent by the vanila protoss player to the nat and 3rd, they keep their ling/hydra count low, mass drones, and try to topple 6 gate 1 stargate protoss under the weight of 5 hatch hydra's (which works really well).
So the toss player has really 2 choices, "contain" with the dt's and go ling hunting, or suicide them for psi (lol).
But with this, i can clear my base of Ol's with goons and sairs, and morph my DA, making sure zerg wont see it till scourges/muta's are out.
With this, the "dt's presence" is still there , at the same time, protoss is getting ready for any muta harass on the ht's
Now lets think of it this way. The DT's has paid for themselves, since they did the 3 things i mentioned earlier. So for 100 minerals and 100 gas, protoss gets an immediate benefit of being more immune to muta harass.
Now lets think of it in the long run. If the zerg didnt get muta's and went all-ground instead? then i still have a maelstrom or two which could easily pay off my 100/100 invested by stunning a couple of hydra's.
With the 100/100 i invested, now my HT's could go for full force without any worries. I dont even have to oblige about archoning my ht's, since out-of-energy ht's are still awesome in giving the chills to Z even when placed in the base or something.
With the 100/100 i invested, i can also counter lategame ultralings+defiler since DA's are awesome for lowering defiler count
Both feedback and maelstrom has incredible range (abit less then siege tank sight) and has pretty good endgame abilities
for 100 gas and 100 minerals, i get immediate return of investments, and also tons of late game potential. If you ask me, its the perfect transition from FE sair/dt, if only it were my standard opening.
I think that dark archons should probably be made a bit later than is suggested in this thread. The initial push out/muta defense only requires a very small amount of HT, getting storm and these and then pushing out to try and take your third takes priority over the dark archon. ]
It's generally around this point, where the P has kicked in fully to 2 base macro and is about to take a third that the muta switch happens. The Z will run in with their group of hydras, try and snipe the third, then if that fails they retreat, tech to lurkers, and either make a group of mutas or take another expo.
So that's the timing you should really be aiming to have the dark archon having 100 energy at and having maelstrom finished. There's no need for 200 energy until late game, it's not that useful vs Hydras. The best way to do this that I could see would be to skip getting HT energy and getting mael when you usually would, and merging two dark archons and keeping them in your natural.
Then after this getting HT energy - Maelstrom is a really, really fast upgrade. I don't know of any others that are as fast.
On October 13 2009 03:44 spinesheath wrote: But the DA indirectly nets 9 muta kills plus 4 times 5 hydra kills through 2-4 saved HTs.
I assure you that you will mess up one of the other 300 things you have to do in that minute, even if you successfully a) maelstrom the mutas and b) have enough dragoons to kill them before they unfreeze...because: if you use a storm, then you're saving 5 hydras, remember? If you use an archon, thats 10 hydras you're saving, remember?
And I assure you that you will mess up those 3 stroms you are hecticly casting on those mutas that are about to snipe your 4 HTs will kill 2 of your HTs and damage half your army, while the zerg still snipes 1 HT and escapes at 50% health. Your leftover HT is at 5 energy and can't be morphed into an archon because there is none of his fellow templars around. At that point in the game you rarely have any goons, and if you have some, it would most likely be a completely different build that barely has room for early DAs. Instead you usually have at least 1 archon in your army from earlier. Also notice that 4 x 5 = 20, which is more than 10, and especially more than 5. Don't try to counter my statement with one that actually supports mine.
Just want to mention that Kwark displayed a timing that worked to counter the Muta switch on stream with ret. However, he ended up losing shortly after due to a lack of units following his first army. I'm not sure if it was solely because of getting the DA's or not, but it was really satisfying to see all 10-11 mutas just die to a storm xP. And yea, ret didn't see the DA until it was too late.
i think the viability of darchons in pvz is very dependent on a lot of things but map and player skill amongst other things so this makes the viability of it very specific to each individual.
progames included.
yes it could work, but then again it could fuck up terribly.
and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
On October 13 2009 07:14 Gnarly wrote: The whole APM discussion is touchy. There is a reason why the pros are the pros. They should always be trying to surpass themselves. I think not using DA, or queens, just because of the APM usage is stupid and very unprofessional. Pros should be able to learn to deal with it, right? Maybe they have actually already tried, really, really tried, and this is why they say they can't, or they just simply don't know how to incorporate DA micro into their micro/macro system, and refuse to try, thus saying it's too hard. I can't put any weight on this, just simply because how the hell am I, or even you, supposed to know?
I've tried a build with DAs and I must say that its incredibly hard to adapt with.
Sad to say, its really hard to use a DA considering that the muta snipe force arrives from early-mid game transition stage and at that point, macro, upgrades and microing your army to hydras that attack already takes up so much attention.
Sad to say, your DA must be where the mutas are which means that they have to be near the high templars. But since the mutas arrive right when you push out, your army is slightly mispositioned and you may not be able to get a maelstorm off at all.
seriously.... hotkey the DA somewhere from 3-5 and just press 5e and click the mutas. BAM, in less than a second with only 3 actions I've maelstormed the mutas, even with my limited 110-120 APM. I really don't see what the big deal is, maelstorm doesn't miss and they can't just fly out of it.
As long as you can find a timing to build the DA nobody, not even noobs, should have a problem actually using the spell.
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
1 less option for zergs then. But if everyone stopped sniping hts with muta then nobody would get DA for that anymore... Then muta ht sniping would be safe again :O So I dont think its that simple.
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
correct me if i am wrong, but isn't not doing something (which is in the current metagame), by its very definition a shift in the metagame?
there is alot of debate here, but it is all pointless, yes maelstrom will counter the muta ht snipes, yes it will require some additional resource/micro. no amount criticizing on this thread will decide if it is worth it. just go play and try it if you think it has potential, time will tell. metagame shift doesn't happen by debate, it happens by what people do. then again thanks to the OP for bringing this idea to everyones attention.
btw i hate the word metagame over used buzzword just meaning best set of strategies (alright i guess it shortens that a little)
this showed up in the dreiven highlight video. nothing new and won't cause a metagame shift. it's like queens - theoretically they are ideal in certain situations but it's just one more thing to worry about that takes away from other parts of your game.
On October 13 2009 07:14 Gnarly wrote: The whole APM discussion is touchy. There is a reason why the pros are the pros. They should always be trying to surpass themselves. I think not using DA, or queens, just because of the APM usage is stupid and very unprofessional. Pros should be able to learn to deal with it, right? Maybe they have actually already tried, really, really tried, and this is why they say they can't, or they just simply don't know how to incorporate DA micro into their micro/macro system, and refuse to try, thus saying it's too hard. I can't put any weight on this, just simply because how the hell am I, or even you, supposed to know?
Blah.
Maybe a case of peole not wanting to adapt?
A wise man once said "If you think you have infinite focus and play accordingly, you will lose".
I'd imagine that the game would be played very much differently if players could see the game frame by frame and make all the decisions he wants to for each frame. That is not the case, however, so we shouldn't play like we can do it all.
If you were SURE that the zerg was gonna go with mutals, then i feel like getting DA might be worth more than storm. The problem that i can see is, when zerg is getting den/spire, and you aren't sure yet, which units zerg is going to be going for, hydras, or mutals, which upgrade are you going to be getting, and what units. If you start upgrading/making DA after you see mutals, there's no way you'll be able to get them in time. If you assume they're going mutals, and zerg ends up getting hydras, you're pretty much F-ed. I think that's why people choose storm. Storm, though not as useful against mutals, is at least more useful against both of zerg's tech than DA is. Admitted, if you know for sure that zerg is going to rely heavily on mutals, then going for DA wouldn't be such a bad idea at all.
On October 13 2009 15:44 TossNub wrote: If you were SURE that the zerg was gonna go with mutals, then i feel like getting DA might be worth more than storm. The problem that i can see is, when zerg is getting den/spire, and you aren't sure yet, which units zerg is going to be going for, hydras, or mutals, which upgrade are you going to be getting, and what units. If you start upgrading/making DA after you see mutals, there's no way you'll be able to get them in time. If you assume they're going mutals, and zerg ends up getting hydras, you're pretty much F-ed. I think that's why people choose storm. Storm, though not as useful against mutals, is at least more useful against both of zerg's tech than DA is. Admitted, if you know for sure that zerg is going to rely heavily on mutals, then going for DA wouldn't be such a bad idea at all.
You're discounting maelstrom's effectiveness against hydras. Granted it'd be so much better taking out 9 stacked mutas, but it's not impossibly useless. Also if you have a corsair flying around you can count larvae, although I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the DA timing compared to the current storm timing.
On October 13 2009 09:14 JMave wrote: I've tried a build with DAs and I must say that its incredibly hard to adapt with.
Sad to say, its really hard to use a DA considering that the muta snipe force arrives from early-mid game transition stage and at that point, macro, upgrades and microing your army to hydras that attack already takes up so much attention.
Sad to say, your DA must be where the mutas are which means that they have to be near the high templars. But since the mutas arrive right when you push out, your army is slightly mispositioned and you may not be able to get a maelstorm off at all.
Probably Bisu could pull it off but not me.
Yeah but the zergs has learned to micro the mutas around, dodge storm with hyds and macro, so why shouldnt protoss be able to. Its all in your head.
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
correct me if i am wrong, but isn't not doing something (which is in the current metagame), by its very definition a shift in the metagame?
You are indeed correct sir! You catch him on a misunderstanding like I catch him on his extreme lack of art production!
Even if they dont go mutas it has some use against mass hydras, so if you can only mael like 5-6 however many a clump would be it's a sure storm hit, which is some compensation.
While mael definitely isnt as good as a storm, it's much better being able to deny a muta change>ht pick off switch for the whole game than losing like all your hts at the start, or some point in the game.
And DA do actually scale late game with feedback on defilers, and maelings on ultras is extremely useful.
If you KNOW he cant go mutas because you're going DA you'd practically never have to make defensive cannons in your min lines early to stop a muta threat, which is very very nice too.
Seems totally viable and very interesting at least.
Btw, I don't believe that it's the maelstorm itself guys that people are saying is APM intensive. It's managing the DA as a whole... the progamers didn't say that it was ensnare for the queen that was hard to use, rather having to manage a whole extra unit with it's own speed and placement positioning, etc. Same goes with DA. It's very similar to the arbiter in PvT where you see the pros sending their entire army forward and the arbiter keeps going until it encouters turrets and dies to turrets. The DA I watch ALWAYS has that happen as well, and it's sniped VERY easily by hydras. Easier than archons are, and they die quite fast to hydras...
...i dont think thats the same thing though. most death-by-turret arbiters is caused by them trying to pull a recall in a well-turreted expansion, rather then 1a2a3a4a...oops, an arbiter walked into turrets.
And the only reason archons are easy to snipe, is because most players group them with zealots so that they can get to the lings asap when they come.
but i dont see any reason for DA' to be grouped with lots and archons in the front line...
Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well.
On October 13 2009 15:44 TossNub wrote: If you were SURE that the zerg was gonna go with mutals, then i feel like getting DA might be worth more than storm. The problem that i can see is, when zerg is getting den/spire, and you aren't sure yet, which units zerg is going to be going for, hydras, or mutals, which upgrade are you going to be getting, and what units. If you start upgrading/making DA after you see mutals, there's no way you'll be able to get them in time. If you assume they're going mutals, and zerg ends up getting hydras, you're pretty much F-ed. I think that's why people choose storm. Storm, though not as useful against mutals, is at least more useful against both of zerg's tech than DA is. Admitted, if you know for sure that zerg is going to rely heavily on mutals, then going for DA wouldn't be such a bad idea at all.
You're discounting maelstrom's effectiveness against hydras. Granted it'd be so much better taking out 9 stacked mutas, but it's not impossibly useless. Also if you have a corsair flying around you can count larvae, although I'm not exactly sure how you'd want the DA timing compared to the current storm timing.
A single maelstrom V a single storm might be comparable, but with energy costs, and since DA needs 2 DTs, with storms a toss can get 2, if lucky up to 3 storms by the time a hydra army comes in, but with DA i can't really see more than 1 maelstrom being ready in time.
Kinda off topic o_O i wrote it all and read it and realized this has nothing to do with DA lol
As for the APM matter, i've always been confused as to why people joke around like "1a2a3a toss" it's not that toss doesn't need micro, but it takes longer for toss to macro. for example (by the way 1a2a3a is late game, so i'm setting up scenarios in late game)
If a zerg players wants to mass up 12 units (with no lings) they require 4 "unit building actions". to match that a toss player is required to do i would say around 6 to 8 "unit building actions" depending on the unit composition and upgrades. in the beginning it doesn't seem like that big of a deal but late game, when zerg is pouring out from 9 to 12 "unit building actions" toss is required to spend a lot more time macroing their units. not to mention the fact that zerg can just save up their larvas and produce, while toss has to keep their gates constantly pumping.
Against terran it's a little different, which is why i think toss does have some advantage against terran. If a terran player produces from 8 facts, toss is required to produce from 10 gates or so (due to terran units being more effective... especially late game with upgrades). which only requires very small time spent on "unit producing actions" than the terran player.
So a zerg player with 200 apm could spend a considerably longer time microing his units while a toss player with 200 apm is busy keep their unit count up to par. Against terran you do see more micro, such as zelot bombing or running your zelots, making sure your goons aren't hiting the building that's floating around for meat shield. etc etc. So yeah, toss does micro less than zerg/terran players, but it's because we want to keep out with zerg/terran's macro.
That's just my 2 cents o_O. Don't bash me too much.
Go 1a2a3a with different speed units and see how it works out. Bisu got famous partially for great observer control. Noone lurker contains Bisu anymore.
On October 14 2009 00:04 TossNub wrote: Kinda off topic o_O i wrote it all and read it and realized this has nothing to do with DA lol
As for the APM matter, i've always been confused as to why people joke around like "1a2a3a toss" it's not that toss doesn't need micro, but it takes longer for toss to macro. for example (by the way 1a2a3a is late game, so i'm setting up scenarios in late game)
If a zerg players wants to mass up 12 units (with no lings) they require 4 "unit building actions". to match that a toss player is required to do i would say around 6 to 8 "unit building actions" depending on the unit composition and upgrades. in the beginning it doesn't seem like that big of a deal but late game, when zerg is pouring out from 9 to 12 "unit building actions" toss is required to spend a lot more time macroing their units. not to mention the fact that zerg can just save up their larvas and produce, while toss has to keep their gates constantly pumping.
Against terran it's a little different, which is why i think toss does have some advantage against terran. If a terran player produces from 8 facts, toss is required to produce from 10 gates or so (due to terran units being more effective... especially late game with upgrades). which only requires very small time spent on "unit producing actions" than the terran player.
So a zerg player with 200 apm could spend a considerably longer time microing his units while a toss player with 200 apm is busy keep their unit count up to par. Against terran you do see more micro, such as zelot bombing or running your zelots, making sure your goons aren't hiting the building that's floating around for meat shield. etc etc. So yeah, toss does micro less than zerg/terran players, but it's because we want to keep out with zerg/terran's macro.
That's just my 2 cents o_O. Don't bash me too much.
1. Protoss units cost more 2. Protoss units take longer to build 3. Protoss units are strong 4. Protoss has fewer overall units than zerg and less "death ball" factor than Terran
All this combines to make Protoss army control extremely micro oriented. 1a2a3a is just a joke, if anyone takes it seriously then that explains why they're bad at the game. Terran is the most micro intensive, obviously, but good micro of your army with P is extremely important because they can't be quickly replaced, and you have an unforgiving macro mechanic on top of that (my gates don't multiply themselves when I don't macro correctly).
As a bad Terran player, I have little practical expertise to contribute here...
But I do want to say that this is what make TL so wonderful- it's already been the biggest and best site for SC coverage in the world, but with liquipedia and the strategy forum, TL is becoming the foremost engine for SC strategy and tactical discussion outside of the SC Team houses.
Foreign players are well served for now, and will certainly be with SC2. This can only help narrow the gap in skill between Korea and everywhere else.
On October 14 2009 00:04 TossNub wrote: Kinda off topic o_O i wrote it all and read it and realized this has nothing to do with DA lol
As for the APM matter, i've always been confused as to why people joke around like "1a2a3a toss" it's not that toss doesn't need micro, but it takes longer for toss to macro. for example (by the way 1a2a3a is late game, so i'm setting up scenarios in late game)
If a zerg players wants to mass up 12 units (with no lings) they require 4 "unit building actions". to match that a toss player is required to do i would say around 6 to 8 "unit building actions" depending on the unit composition and upgrades. in the beginning it doesn't seem like that big of a deal but late game, when zerg is pouring out from 9 to 12 "unit building actions" toss is required to spend a lot more time macroing their units. not to mention the fact that zerg can just save up their larvas and produce, while toss has to keep their gates constantly pumping.
Against terran it's a little different, which is why i think toss does have some advantage against terran. If a terran player produces from 8 facts, toss is required to produce from 10 gates or so (due to terran units being more effective... especially late game with upgrades). which only requires very small time spent on "unit producing actions" than the terran player.
So a zerg player with 200 apm could spend a considerably longer time microing his units while a toss player with 200 apm is busy keep their unit count up to par. Against terran you do see more micro, such as zelot bombing or running your zelots, making sure your goons aren't hiting the building that's floating around for meat shield. etc etc. So yeah, toss does micro less than zerg/terran players, but it's because we want to keep out with zerg/terran's macro.
That's just my 2 cents o_O. Don't bash me too much.
Toss macro is quite certainly the easiest.
Terran, tvz bio: go back to your main every 10-15 seconds and select 10 rax, produce 1 rine each. Even pros don't always do that, instead the produce 2-3 rines per rax. Which also takes a lot of time, after all that's 30-40 actions. Terran, any mech build: vults build extremely fast as well, but overall mech isn't extremely hard to macro. Facts can be put in one place. Zerg: If you don't have all your hatches hotkeyed, you have to move over X places, where X is the number of bases, ctrl-click and hatch some unit. You only have 3 F-Keys to help with that, and even then it is quite ugly to jump around everywhere. Once you are 4 bases you have to scroll the map or use both hotkeys and F-Keys, which is quite confusing. You have to make sure to produce the right units at the right places, but that requires you to take the time and check what is needed at the place where you are currently macroing. You also should never wait until you have 3 larvae or else you will "lose" larvae, so your macro window is somewhere between 13 and 35 seconds. Toss: Their units take forever to produce. No idea how long it actually is, but you certainly have plenty of time between two macro cycles. Toss can conveniently put all the gates in a single place, and an additional gate to compensate for bad macro in times when you have to do other stuff doesn't cost 350 minerals + 1 larva or 200/100 + 50/50. Toss only has to use a single hotkey to access the macro location. And that's when they don't even need 9 hotkeys for units. If toss has robos at expansions it is easy to make the right units - reavers at all robos, except for sometimes an obs or shuttle in your main.
Nongmin won two pretty intense ZvP games last night simply because the Protoss had a lapse in macro. PvZ micro is seriously intense, and due to it you might screw up in unit production in mid to late game PvZ. The Protoss seriously won every single fight by huge margins until Nongmin's hive tech kicked in. The thing is, Even if the Zerg messed up and stacked up three larva, you can still pump freaking three units from the hatchery. You cannot do the same with Protoss unit production buildings. Due to this, Zerg unit production seriously is more forgiving than Protoss unit production. The players weren't scrubs either. They were both extremely good players despite some of their flaws (Nongmin tossing a billion Zerglings to die and the Protoss collapsing in unit production in the late game).
I have no idea why you're talking about how Protoss gets to put all their gateways in the same place when Terran does the exact same, and additional unit production hatcheries that aren't used for expos are generally all placed in the same place as well.
As you get better in PvZ, army movement is REALLY key. Minimizing damage by moving units around to stop alot of hits on a few units, not taking any losses (i.e move a few units back so the zerg units die faster), storming the right spot to stop a strike force of zerglings/hydras coming - these all add up. Losing 8 unnessesary units in mid game because you had them out of position is actually pretty costly for a protoss vs zerg. At lower levels, zerg can't macro up anything enough to weaken, let alone kill a protoss with a decently macro'd army. That's why most zergs cheese, and facing cheese as protoss is very hard until you have an understanding of the matchup and know how to multitask your scouting probe
On October 14 2009 01:49 koreasilver wrote: Nongmin won two pretty intense ZvP games last night simply because the Protoss had a lapse in macro. PvZ micro is seriously intense, and due to it you might screw up in unit production in mid to late game PvZ. The Protoss seriously won every single fight by huge margins until Nongmin's hive tech kicked in. The thing is, Even if the Zerg messed up and stacked up three larva, you can still pump freaking three units from the hatchery. You cannot do the same with Protoss unit production buildings. Due to this, Zerg unit production seriously is more forgiving than Protoss unit production. The players weren't scrubs either. They were both extremely good players despite some of their flaws (Nongmin tossing a billion Zerglings to die and the Protoss collapsing in unit production in the late game).
I have no idea why you're talking about how Protoss gets to put all their gateways in the same place when Terran does the exact same, and additional unit production hatcheries that aren't used for expos are generally all placed in the same place as well.
Even though you try to mass several hatcheries, the fact remains that zerg has his production spread over 4-5 places in lategame, while toss usually only produces from 1 or 2 places. Also, if zerg doesn't use his larvae perfectly, he has to get additional hatcheries which cost 350 minerals + 1 larva + mining time each, while an additional gate only costs 150 minerals and only 8-16 minerals due to lost mining time. In lategame, zerg will most likely macro on the time frame limit as well, so he will always stack 2 or almost 3 larvae before he starts the next production round. If he loses larvae and doesn't have excess hatcheries, he will pile up resources. If the zerg builds additional hatcheries to compensate for bad macro, the toss will be able to build twice as many additional gates. Of course this doesn't take into account that ultras are less larva intensive and thus you might have more hatcheries from midgame than you will need in lategame. But it gets quite complicated here as you also have to take the gas cost into account and what not. It's true that zerg macro can be more forgiving, but essentially you are losing resources compared to perfect macro. Resources that toss should be able to lose in the same way, by having more gates than necessary for perfect macro.
I also mentioned that facts can be put in a single place too, and thus terran mech macro isn't so extremely hard either. Yes you can clump rax too, but then terran bio still has the shortest macro interval, or else requires the most actions.
I am not trying to say that toss macro is way easier than any other race's. I'd even be ok with saying they are equally hard. My main point with that above post was that toss has to spend less time/hotkeys/etc on macro than zerg. I have to admit that I didn't really argue in that direction. So, for the mentioned reasons, my point is that toss has more time/etc to micro than zerg (and toss needs that time).
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
MC sux. Too much energy and it only gets one unit.
Unless you hace 3-5 DA's and you MC dropping ovies.
o_O i didn't mean to change the subject of the board... lol but i'm impressed that i did. On the off topic issue: I never said toss macro was hard. I admit toss prob. has the easiest macro. untill mid game unit composition is pretty simple, and gates are all built at the same place. But i wasn't talking about macro at all o_O i was talking about microing... even if toss has easier time macroing doesn't change the fact that toss has to spend more time macroing than zerg... and... there for... saying toss is 1a2a3a is.... kinda ridic. toss hasn't been 1a2a3a in forever....
Back on topic O_o DAs... idk, how useful are they against hydras? i have no idea how useful they are. I mean, by the time hydras start pounding at your entrance, you can get off 1 maelstrom. is that enough, cause call me a noob but usually it takes me like 2 storms to fend that off... especially if the opponent is microing their hydras.
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
1 less option for zergs then. But if everyone stopped sniping hts with muta then nobody would get DA for that anymore... Then muta ht sniping would be safe again :O So I dont think its that simple.
This is like saying that if everyone stopped going speedlings because of the forge FE then no one would build cannons again and thus speedlings would be safe again, imo this is stupid logic.
Plus everyone still seems to be forgetting the other uses of dark archons... they aren't like Corsairs where they are out primarily to stop mutas, rather you can use them to maelstrom just about anything, for example lurkers, getting his lurkers before they are burrowed is hugely valuable to a toss, and maelstrom makes that much easier, plus if there is nothing else to maelstrom, just get hydras, stopping the hydras in front makes it much harder to micro a hydra force and you are still dealing damage with your units...
Anyways the threat factor was mentioned and should be emphasized, the typical zerg relies on mobility for alot of his tactics, from early game lings, to muta harass, to ultras and cracklings later, thus maelstrom is a great threat to make a zerg think twice about running in to attack, because he may run the chance of not being able to retreat. SO think like a terran now, the terran advantage is hugely powerful units in a great composition, the terran weakness? Mobility. You are fully committed to attacking/defending a position with siege tanks. Thus if you get defeated by a larger army you lose everything.
Now in terms of a zerg player who often has a less powerful army than a protoss, are you going to do alot of harassing/micro attacks when there is a good chance of loosing a good portion of your army?
On October 14 2009 02:59 TossNub wrote: Back on topic O_o DAs... idk, how useful are they against hydras? i have no idea how useful they are.
exactly my point... and OP's point... protoss are not using that unit enough to know the real value of it, specially in mid game.
So I will suggest that all the protoss that are advocating for this idea, start playing and trying the techniq and then upload the replay so we can analyze them... even those that they lose in the process.
The point of it is to check the timings and compare how effective it would be or not to use those 2 darks that you already created in a different way... I will try to upload mines, but all the zergs I played today are on cheese mode... :S
When I see the opportunity I will try the DAs and post replay of it.
On October 14 2009 02:59 TossNub wrote: o_O i didn't mean to change the subject of the board... lol but i'm impressed that i did. On the off topic issue: I never said toss macro was hard. I admit toss prob. has the easiest macro. untill mid game unit composition is pretty simple, and gates are all built at the same place. But i wasn't talking about macro at all o_O i was talking about microing... even if toss has easier time macroing doesn't change the fact that toss has to spend more time macroing than zerg... and... there for... saying toss is 1a2a3a is.... kinda ridic. toss hasn't been 1a2a3a in forever....
Back on topic O_o DAs... idk, how useful are they against hydras? i have no idea how useful they are. I mean, by the time hydras start pounding at your entrance, you can get off 1 maelstrom. is that enough, cause call me a noob but usually it takes me like 2 storms to fend that off... especially if the opponent is microing their hydras.
Well and I was arguing that toss has to spend less time on macro than zerg and thus has more time for micro.
The point is not to maelstrom hydras that attack your entrance. You would still get your HTs with storm and make the DA from the two DTs you make for harrassment. Or you'd get the DA later, except if you know that the zerg is making mutas, then you'd get an Archon and a DA, possibly skipping storm for a while. The DA is meant to prevent the zerg from HT sniping, which happens a while after the first wave of hydras is out, about the time the toss would want to expand again. It's clear that a DA is inferior to HTs if there are no mutas, but if there are no mutas, the toss army is strong enough to compensate for the small loss of strength because there is no huge loss of strength aka HT sniping. If HT sniping wouldn't give the zerg a decent advantage compared to not sniping, zergs wouldn't do it. So if you can deny it, you can accept a small cost. After all, you shouldn't be looking for a kill-all build, but for a build that safely carries you through mid- and lategame where you can overwhelm your opponent through superior mechanics/etc., or even get into the phase where the map is mined out, where toss has a huge advantage, especially with DAs.
On October 14 2009 02:59 TossNub wrote: Back on topic O_o DAs... idk, how useful are they against hydras? i have no idea how useful they are.
exactly my point... and OP's point... protoss are not using that unit enough to know the real value of it, specially in mid game.
So I will suggest that all the protoss that are advocating for this idea, start playing and trying the techniq and then upload the replay so we can analyze them... even those that they lose in the process.
The point of it is to check the timings and compare how effective it would be or not to use those 2 darks that you already created in a different way... I will try to upload mines, but all the zergs I played today are on cheese mode... :S
When I see the opportunity I will try the DAs and post replay of it.
I'll help though im only D+ and most of my games ill probably lose :/
On October 13 2009 07:33 pyrogenetix wrote: and no there will not be a shift in metagame because if everyone did it then zergs would stop trying to ht snipe with mutastacks.
1 less option for zergs then. But if everyone stopped sniping hts with muta then nobody would get DA for that anymore... Then muta ht sniping would be safe again :O So I dont think its that simple.
This is like saying that if everyone stopped going speedlings because of the forge FE then no one would build cannons again and thus speedlings would be safe again, imo this is stupid logic.
Reading comprehension ftw... The whole point of my post was to point out thats stupid logic.
That wasn't the DA's fault, really. Having 0 defense against mutas isn't advisable, even if you have a DA. And in various other occasions JangBi made some serious mistakes (losing 2 HTs in the middle of the map, miles from his army, losing a full shuttle, ...). Having 2 HTs and 2 Zealots instead wouldn't have made a difference in that game.
Jumping to conclusions from a single bad game isn't exactly what helps you at getting better. Oh no, I lost with proxy 2 gate, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no, I lost with 1 gate tech, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no, I lost with forge fe, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no... I'll go play WoW instead.
That wasn't the DA's fault, really. Having 0 defense against mutas isn't advisable, even if you have a DA. And in various other occasions JangBi made some serious mistakes (losing 2 HTs in the middle of the map, miles from his army, losing a full shuttle, ...). Having 2 HTs and 2 Zealots instead wouldn't have made a difference in that game.
Jumping to conclusions from a single bad game isn't exactly what helps you at getting better. Oh no, I lost with proxy 2 gate, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no, I lost with 1 gate tech, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no, I lost with forge fe, I'll never do that again, it sucks. Oh no... I'll go play WoW instead.
Toss macro is easiest in lategame PvT. Easiest lategame macro period unless you have 20+ gates. Just build gateways and pylons and produce zeal/goon.
Toss macro is hardest in midgame PvZ (has to build a TON of shit, all three techs with a large production burst and lots of pylons and don't forget upgrading like mad) and very demanding in late game PvZ when you build/rebuild cannons like a madman.
Actually, the hardest macro task is not queuing units, but constructing buildings because you need to hit exactly the right spot and be at the same time fast and precise with mouse. Unit queuing - yes zerg is hardest here because all their hatcheries are at different corners of the map, but when it comes to the amount of buildings you make in PvZ and the precision with which you have to place them, I'd say toss doesn't suffer an easier fate than other races. Toss has best macro with production facilities costing only minerals and building fast, but best doesn't equal easy.
On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote: Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well.
Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe.
And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote: Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well.
Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe.
And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
The DA has Zealots and Archons as meatshields, which both are not outrun by a DA. The DA only gets far ahead if you attack move past your opponents army, and even then it's most likely that most hydras will focus on Zealots instead. DAs have quite a low priority there, both for the AI and the human, since they are less effective against hydras/lurks/lings. And I assume that if the zerg has the additional APM to focus the DA, the toss has the APM to retreat it. In most VODs where I saw DAs, they lived through the whole battle and were left behind just like we see it with Arbiters. Only once I saw a zerg snipe a DA, and that one strayed off the main army without a good reason.
On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote: Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well.
Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe.
And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
Amber[LighT]'s Pro-TOSS tip #37: Hotkey your Dark Archons or Arbiters to a hotkey rarely used (7 or 8). I know some Zergs do this with their defilers to keep them separated from their army. Do not use this hotkey in your army's onslaught (1-4 only!). Instead, take your roaming spell casters and click "move" on a fellow unit (Zealot, Dragoon, Archon). Then your arbiters and dark archons will stay behind as though they are high templar that move extremely slow and if you need your DA's or arbiters just click "7" and take one to use at a time.
That wasn't the DA's fault, really. Having 0 defense against mutas isn't advisable, even if you have a DA. And in various other occasions JangBi made some serious mistakes (losing 2 HTs in the middle of the map, miles from his army, losing a full shuttle, ...). Having 2 HTs and 2 Zealots instead wouldn't have made a difference in that game.
But the lack of cannons might be a direct result of using DA. Jangbi probably cut some corners in his build to insure the storm timing isn't delayed too badly.
Regardless, the speed zerg can switch tech vs protoss lies its huge advantage. Especially since PvZ is so reliant on army composition.
On October 13 2009 19:38 spinesheath wrote: Most avoidable Arbiter deaths I see don't happen during an attack, but a bit afterwards, when the toss goes back to macro. Imo this will change over time. It could be prevented easily, anyways: Hotkey all your Arbs in one group and once you return to your base after a battle, select that group and right klick anywhere in your base. That would mostly be another macro task, nothing more. Tosses are used to macroing right before and right after the main part of a battle has been fought out. Adding 2 actions to the routine takes a lot of time and practice, but at some point you will do it unconciously.
I don't see how DAs are sniped easier than Archons. DAs have no attack, so they RUN if they are hit. Archons ATTACK the hydras. And if the two units are following the same order (move, attack move, patrol, hold) they are sniped equally well.
Um, running vs getting hit is irrelevant. I'm talking about when you're actually advancing. HT are generally safe when they are in the actual Protoss expansion... it's when you're moving out to pressure hte Zerg that the HT get sniped by mutas. Thus when you're moving your armies I often see DA going out ahead in huge engagements (while the APM is being used to storm, etc). It's just the cost of managing another unit. DA can take quite a bit less hits from hydras than archons as well. They are quite the easy target to snipe.
And it's still the same concept as arbiters, toss usually are focusing attention elsewhere. The only reason you don't notice it with TvP is because turrets take FOREVER to kill the fucking arbiter which has a ton of hp. So if a DA does the same vs hydralisks, it's done in a second. Just like how if an arbiter does that and goliaths are around, it's done in seconds. That's how I view it at least, and have experienced it from personal use.
Amber[LighT]'s Pro-TOSS tip #37: Hotkey your Dark Archons or Arbiters to a hotkey rarely used (7 or 8). I know some Zergs do this with their defilers to keep them separated from their army. Do not use this hotkey in your army's onslaught (1-4 only!). Instead, take your roaming spell casters and click "move" on a fellow unit (Zealot, Dragoon, Archon). Then your arbiters and dark archons will stay behind as though they are high templar that move extremely slow and if you need your DA's or arbiters just click "7" and take one to use at a time.
Hey, I do this all the time in TvP with vessels. Works great. Should try it with DA's too.
On October 14 2009 21:41 BluzMan wrote: It's very easy to lose track of which unit is still alive and which is dead since it's impossible to tell which one you've been following.
wut?? that comment is a bit confusing.
I was also thinking that you just select your DA and right click a HT. That way the DA is going to "protect" the unit you clicked and will go at the same speed as them, that means that as the HT is going slow your DA is also going to be on the back of the herd.
Actually having it close to a HT is exactly what you want since after a Maelstrom you want to Storm those units right away.
I have been finding it difficult to create the DA since you have to scout well what is the zerg doing to know if you are going to put more zealots or create more Cannons/Gates/Tech...
yesterday most zergs were playing against FE by going 3hatch lings+speed instead of going hydra or mutas... Me as a D/D+ player find it really difficult to differentiate the builds since they deny my scouts...
so again we do have to know WHEN to create the DAs and When NOT to... That is the difficult part and maybe why gosus are not using it right now.. But if we figure out WHEN to stick those DAs I guess they do make a huge change on how the MU is played right now.
well, if you keep dying to 3 hatch lings, da or not u wont live until then anyways :x
EITHER WAY >_>'' kinda out of topic. I think a good indication of joining up the 2 dt's is
1) Sair scouts a spire 2) Zerg nat and 3rd is well sunkened and OL'd. (means u dont think you can do damage to them) 3) no 4th gas for zerg yet (scout with the dt's or something)
then get maelstrom right after storm research. (cut 2 goons for 2 lots or something)
Shine beat Bisu in the last game with massive templar-sniping. Bisu got rolled due to lack of storms.
The toss midgame army's strength is pretty much invested in High-Templar and your skills with storm. Zerg now-a-days are more than content to charge and sacrifice 9 mutas to kill 4+ High Templar. Without HT's, zerg production can roll over the protoss midgame army, stop the third expansion, and move to contain.
The way I see it, Dark Archons are necessary to stop this new trend.
There are a few arguments against Dark Archon Usage thus far, and I'll address them all. 1) Resources are too precious to be spent on Dark Archons, rather than more units. Dark archons can stop muta harass in its tracks, and save you 600+ Gas in High Templar casualties from muta sniping. In addition, since two DT's are often made in most Toss builds already, only Maelstrom is needed to introduce DA's into any protoss build. Dark Archons fit right into the build seamlessly. Scout a spire with your crosair? Start Maelstrom research and fuse your DTs. 2) Dark Archons require too much APM. Dark Archons are already being used at the pro-level, and the only use I am pitching in this thread is to prevent templar sniping. People somehow think that they have to spam maelstorm over the entire zerg army, when only a click on a stack of mutas is needed for the Dark Archon to pay for itself.
I mean, there really is no downside to adding them to your build. I'm not saying you should actively use them throughout the game (although that would be ideal), but just stop muta-sniping in the mid game, which has become too much of a problem for Protoss recently.
I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +
BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING
but yeah ofc he should've gotten a DA. Nice judgement, simply nice. + Show Spoiler +
ah. But in order of importance its always : storm tech first, temp energy second, and then additional upgrades. But it IS a waste of gas to upgrade those extra upgrades as well as commit to more than 1 DA. This might be a solid idea late game when you're on 3-4 gas.
if not watch Horang2 vs Hyuk on HBR. Horang2 went for some DA stuff and got rolled by a 3 hatch hydra push
On October 15 2009 01:32 BluzMan wrote: I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +
BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING
but yeah ofc he should've gotten a DA. Nice judgement, simply nice. + Show Spoiler +
Arguably, a Dark Archon is more cost effective than building more crosairs or goons resource-wise. Or at the very least, protoss early-midgame pushes can use more zealots if a dark archon is made instead of a few goons.
You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo. This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway).
Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
On October 15 2009 01:32 BluzMan wrote: I knew that shit would surface. Maybe, just maybe this has something to do with the fact that + Show Spoiler +
BISU HAD NO FUCKING ANTI-AIR SAVE FOR DRAGOON AND A SINGLE ARCHON MIGHT HAVE SAVED HIS SORRY ASS OR MAYBE AT LEAST THOSE TWO CORSAIRS HE LOST FOR FUCKING NOTHING
but yeah ofc he should've gotten a DA. Nice judgement, simply nice. + Show Spoiler +
Arguably, a Dark Archon is more cost effective than building more crosairs or goons resource-wise. Or at the very least, protoss early-midgame pushes can use more zealots if a dark archon is made instead of a few goons.
On October 15 2009 02:03 DreaM)XeRO wrote: ah. But in order of importance its always : storm tech first, temp energy second, and then additional upgrades. But it IS a waste of gas to upgrade those extra upgrades as well as commit to more than 1 DA. This might be a solid idea late game when you're on 3-4 gas.
if not watch Horang2 vs Hyuk on HBR. Horang2 went for some DA stuff and got rolled by a 3 hatch hydra push
Well this is a different scenario. IMO, Dark Archons are only an effective solution when the zerg is opening 5 hat hydra with spire. The dark archon can nullify muta harass and pay for itself. It's also easily scoutable with your first crosair and an easy transition from any protoss FE opening.
On October 15 2009 02:27 Manit0u wrote: You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo. This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway). Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
I really couldn't watch this big battle when Bisus lots were BEHIND his goons for the most part of the engagement.
Obviously you don't have a clue about Protoss so it's safe to say your post was pretty wasteful, and you suggested disruption web which is rather lulzy. I would easily go for maelstrom over disruption web anyday.
On October 15 2009 02:27 Manit0u wrote: You don't need DA. All you need is more sairs and disruption web. Easier and cheaper than playing with DA/HT/army combo. This way sairs not only can protect your HTs from muta sniping, but can also greatly help in dismantling hydras (if some of your HTs got sniped anyway). Edit: If you need a beacon for dweb then forget that. Just get more sairs and more speedlots.
I really couldn't watch this big battle when Bisus lots were BEHIND his goons for the most part of the engagement.
Obviously you don't have a clue about Protoss so it's safe to say your post was pretty wasteful, and you suggested disruption web which is rather lulzy. I would easily go for maelstrom over disruption web anyday.
lawl -____- poor noob
Maelstrom completely immoblizes units. Dweb just renders the area under the web useless. However movement under the web is still possible.
Yet corsairs are hte cheaper spell caster... either way irrelevant as I don't care about d-web haha.
You guys have to remember if they go lurkers you're fucked as well, what if they don't do a muta switch but a lurker switch? We keep talking about going storm -> templar energy -> maelstrom. But does that mean you're now going to have to DELAY your robo bay to get this? Remember observers are quite gas costly as well, and they are also sniped quite easily by hydras.
People aren't getting the entire sniping thing either... kinda ridiculous some of the answers. Either way, if archons and zealots are both running at you at the same time and you have hydras, what are you going to focus fire on? The archon, not the zealots. You're going to tell all the hydras in the area to snipe it asap. That happens the same with the DA. Except if you 1a2a into the hydra mass, the zealots/archons run to the nearest hydras attacking, while the DA goes to the location you actually selected on the screen. Which is hte problem. High temp aren't a problem because they lag behind and by the time they are still running up you use them.
Either way, I believe you guys will see what I mean if you practice with DA's. I've tried them myself, it's quite difficult. But I like whoever's idea to right click an HT so the DA sticks with the HT.
Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't.
The concept you threw out was that since zerg go muta and snipe HT before they're effective. If instead you went Dark Archon the same muta would be able to snipe them as well and probably before they had energy. Now, if you do keep the Dark Archon alive and get at least a decent cast on the muta you will have an advantage of possibly having HT and Dark Archons on the playing field. The combination of both would be devastating. Group those with reavers/dt or even the standard protoss army and GG.
I think a lot of people are missing the a key point of the Dark Archon usage. It's not to heavily use more DAs, or even get them "early." The point is that you end up with 1 DA in your mid-game army, as I said b4 and others have said, when you see that your two dark templar (if you go for a bisu style based harrass) will do no damage, then you end up merging them to prepare for your mid-game push out.
The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either.
There are many people in the thread that keep making it out as if there is a massive resource drain or supply drain onto your army. The entire point is your entire army composition of templars, zealots, and archon remains exactly the same, the same size as it would normally be, except you have 1 Dark Archon now with accumulated energy at your disposal to prevent mid-game templar sniping when you push out.
Maybe many people have not extensively used the DA, but it is incredibly easy to maelstrom a clump of mutalisks if they get in range - and they WILL get in range because if the Z makes that group of muta, that is their purpose...to snipe templar.
Now it is just a matter of Protoss players grinding down the DA and practicing using it imo...nothing usually works the first try someone ever does it. And I did see the roro / jangbi DA game, and the problem with that game was not the inclusion of a DA, but the fact that Jangbi was greedy and built virtually zero cannons at his main and natural...
But one thing to take from that game is this - the DA did not detract at all from Jangbi's army size, he still had the same composition that he was most likely going for, and the same amount of units up until the point he loses like 20+ probes to unstacked mutas sitting over his minerals?
Aside from all of this, right now, most Zerg players are not going to go, "oh no a DA, I will not attempt muta sniping! " because the DA has not been proven in action yet.
If players keep grinding down finally using the unit for this purpose though, THEN, you'll probably see Zerg reaction of not building those same mutas when they see a DA...which indirectly accomplishes the purpose of not having your templar sniped in the first place...
How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs.
On October 15 2009 07:29 Hapahauli wrote: Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't.
And the trigger that should make a Protoss say, "let's get a DA to accumulate nrg" really shouldn't be the spire itself - Zerg in this era ALWAYS will have a spire vs FE protoss stargate opening. Because remember, the purpose of the DA is not to prevent muta harrassment on your mineral line, you have archons/first sairs/templar for that.
The trigger is whether or not you assess whether your first DTs will be able to do any damage, or if you keep 1-2 alive, then you may as well merge them to prepare for mid-game.
On October 15 2009 07:50 gen.Sun wrote: Anyone else think Hallucinate is the key?
How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs.
You realize they'll just snipe the hallucinations THEN your real templar or vica versa...right? lol plus that is storm energy used, and remember the point of the DA is to allow the templar to remain in P's army composition untouched, as in alive-wise and nrg-wise.
On October 15 2009 07:50 avilo wrote: The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either.
And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit.
If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more.
On October 15 2009 07:50 avilo wrote: The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either.
And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit.
If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more.
On October 15 2009 09:11 cakemanofdoom wrote: I thought we were talking about Mael after storm?
Yes, we are talking about maelstrom after storm/nrg upgrade. But some people refuse to read and try to make it out as if you are getting maelstrom in place of storm -> which is not the case.
You basically research maelstrom as you are about to move out. It is amazing how many people keep saying storm/templars are delayed, army size is reduced, or that vast amount of resources are spent into one DA when that is not the case.
On October 15 2009 07:50 gen.Sun wrote: Anyone else think Hallucinate is the key?
How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs.
You realize they'll just snipe the hallucinations THEN your real templar or vica versa...right? lol plus that is storm energy used, and remember the point of the DA is to allow the templar to remain in P's army composition untouched, as in alive-wise and nrg-wise.
It's not possible to create a no-cost counter. We're talking about sacrificing some part of the regular build to create a counter to the 10 muta snipe.
In my (watching) experience, usually 10 all mutas die from archon/sair/goon fire by the time they snipe 4 HTs. Well if there were 8 HTs then they won't be able to finish sniping before they die. 400 energy to save 2 HTs (assuming they kill 2 fakes and 2 reals) is well worth it imo.
Edit: People talking about free DTs from the sair/DT opening is talking about a fantasy. What kind of DT harass doesn't end up with the DTs dying? If you invest in a DT opening and end up not using your DTs to harass, then the opening has really failed, and that's a sacrifice in of itself.
Edit2: Also note that Hallucination is 20 seconds faster than Maelstorm.
Also note that time to create a DA is 20 seconds again. You also have to have a DA that has enough energy to cast Malestorm, 20 seconds I believe. In total your push is delayed by 140 seconds, or 2 and a half minutes.
On October 15 2009 07:29 Hapahauli wrote: Brah. When you scout with a crosair, you can adjust your build to get a DA or not. If you see a spire, research mael and fuse your two DTs. If you don't, don't.
....
ALL Zergs get a spire. Pretty much ALL of them. Spire =/= getting mutas.
On October 15 2009 07:50 gen.Sun wrote: Anyone else think Hallucinate is the key?
How much does it cost? How many storms are sacrificed for it? But with a bit of luck, cast it as the mutas are approaching and they'll waste a lot of mutas trying to kill fake HTs.
You realize they'll just snipe the hallucinations THEN your real templar or vica versa...right? lol plus that is storm energy used, and remember the point of the DA is to allow the templar to remain in P's army composition untouched, as in alive-wise and nrg-wise.
It's not possible to create a no-cost counter. We're talking about sacrificing some part of the regular build to create a counter to the 10 muta snipe.
In my (watching) experience, usually 10 all mutas die from archon/sair/goon fire by the time they snipe 4 HTs. Well if there were 8 HTs then they won't be able to finish sniping before they die. 400 energy to save 2 HTs (assuming they kill 2 fakes and 2 reals) is well worth it imo.
Edit: People talking about free DTs from the sair/DT opening is talking about a fantasy. What kind of DT harass doesn't end up with the DTs dying? If you invest in a DT opening and end up not using your DTs to harass, then the opening has really failed, and that's a sacrifice in of itself.
Edit2: Also note that Hallucination is 20 seconds faster than Maelstorm.
Also note that time to create a DA is 20 seconds again. You also have to have a DA that has enough energy to cast Malestorm, 20 seconds I believe. In total your push is delayed by 140 seconds, or 2 and a half minutes.
This is quite expensive.
Disagreed, I don't believe 400 energy is worth it to save 2 HT's at all, those 2 HT's lost don't even have 400 energy... and it's such an intensive gamble...
I don't get how you come up with the 140 seconds btw. Creating a DA for 20 seconds shouldn't have its time incorporated at all, you can do it before Maelstrom finishes researching. Same with the energy provision. The only limiting factor is the Maelstrom tech finishing and whether or not you want to wait for 200/200 energy, getting 100 shouldn't be an issue.
DT are only 2 units, and the threat of them is still in existence. While you're right it could be considered a setback - it's not necessarily a major one since Zerg still had to go through the provisions to defend from it from only 2 units (which is the exact same mentality people are using in this thread about zergs no longer going mutas if they see DA).
It's some theorycrafting but personally I don't think hallucination is viable at ALL. You need to do it before the Zerg even goes into muta sniping otherwise they'll see it, and you're just wasting templar energy that could be utilized on storm. Realize most templar won't have more htan 150 energy even after the talisman upgrade, so using a hallucination will probably result in the templar not being able to storm at ALL.
On October 15 2009 07:50 avilo wrote: The key thing is that the DA has no impact on your resources except for maelstrom research, and the DA has no impact on your army size or composition either.
And that's not that important? Mid-game protoss army is reliant on having storms out ASAP to deal with hydras. Maelstrom research delays that by 100 game seconds. Making the toss army more vulnerable to zerg rushes, as well as delay push timing by quite a bit.
If Maelstrom was researched at another location separate from storm, your point would be a lot more valid. Then again, if that was the case, DAs would be used in PvZ quite a bit more.
wrong... and it is obvious you havent read the thread... maelstrom AFTER normal storm and energy but BEFORE pushing out with your main attack which wont be reduced on number...
again in slow motion:
->normal build ->2DTs as usual ->go and see if you can harass... if you do great!! if you cant, *dont let your dts die* and merge them... ->you continue creating HTs, research your stuff as usual while protecting your base. ->you think about pushing out THEN research maelstrom and voila! a great threat to the snipers...
"ah!! he didnt make mutas!!! I am doomed!!!..."
no you are not... 90% of zerg units can be maelstromed... so basically when you are attacking, you see his over 9000 hydras and you do what you normally do (cast spells on them you know...?) but BEFORE everything you just try to pin 1/2 of the hydras with your maelstrom which you already have and then storm them = zerg is crippled in the first battle.
you can go and tech or expand or mass units... but that is the general theory that thanks to the OP we are discussing...
PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING....
so... 1) no mysterious APM rocking to the sky... you are not maelstroming every 1 second 2) no resources mysteriously disappearing... you are making the 2 DTs anyway (unless you lose them, in which case you WONT do the DA would you?)... 3) no low unit count unless you stay watching how your DA merges and forget to make more units...
We need more posts opposing the creation of a DA so we can see what could be the real problem and why progammers are not using it...
Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming
Now, after watching some games, I really don't think DA is of any use in midgame pvz. For late game it's a good unit to have, but not in the midgame.
Just looking at the games, for Bisu it didn't work vs queens, for JangBi it didn't work vs mutas and there are many examples where it didn't work vs simple hydra-lurker-scourge combo. Of course when zerg will see the DA he will use the last variant, that's the logical thing to do. And toss will waste 300 gas early game just to be sure his templars will not be sniped.
This will make the toss exit his base very late, when the zerg will have 4 bases saturated if he will play smart and from this point it's difficult to not get killed by simple brute force.
On October 15 2009 17:24 arbiter_md wrote: Just looking at the games, for Bisu it didn't work vs queens, for JangBi it didn't work vs mutas and there are many examples where it didn't work vs simple hydra-lurker-scourge combo. Of course when zerg will see the DA he will use the last variant, that's the logical thing to do. And toss will waste 300 gas early game just to be sure his templars will not be sniped.
That is not a waste though... and if you force the Zerg to not even make mutas then great, you don't have to worry about it and just forced them to change their plan.
Dark Archon was intended to be PvZ in the first place, pros just need to learn to use it better.
First of all, maelstrom is cast on a unit meaning it tracks, so you really shouldn't miss if you practice it.
2nd of all, learn to cast better. DA is like any other unit in the game, meaning it has to face the target in order to attack/cast it faster. So if you point it towards the mutas, it will have a much higher chance of success. If it's facing the other way, it has to turn first.
3rdly, it's only 1 unit, and it has a lot of shield for a spellcaster so it doesn't die easily. It's certainly moves much better than the queen, .
4th, Feedback is very useful too. So right away there's already 2 skills protoss can learn to do well. Did you think modern muta micro happened in 1 day?
As for the build order I leave that to the pros. DA is high tech but it's the same tech as HTs so I think there's a way to make it work, as opposed to getting your 450-600+ gas worth of HTs asswooped.
I've always looked at the DA's role in pvz the same as an arbiter in pvt. Getting a few good mark on ur oppenents army reduces the army and their vulnerable. But it's something you'll have to control very well when your casting storms
On October 15 2009 17:14 sauc wrote: Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming
correct me if I am wrong but casting a normal storm is way more difficult on moving mutas since that is the point of the maelstrom that they DONT move. I have a replay in which I casted 4 storms and killed 2-4 mutas in a pack of 9 because he move them all the time... If I had a DA with maelstrom and casted it on them with 1-2 storms they would be dead, since they cant move at all... and that is the point, how do we get to the point where that DA is ready to go in a good timing and with no downside (at least not too huge).
On October 15 2009 17:14 sauc wrote: Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming
correct me if I am wrong but casting a normal storm is way more difficult on moving mutas since that is the point of the maelstrom that they DONT move. I have a replay in which I casted 4 storms and killed 2-4 mutas in a pack of 9 because he move them all the time... If I had a DA with maelstrom and casted it on them with 1-2 storms they would be dead, since they cant move at all... and that is the point, how do we get to the point where that DA is ready to go in a good timing and with no downside (at least not too huge).
sorry i meant the difference between storming hydras vs maelstroming mutas
I don't have a good (progamer) replay at hand to actually make sure, but: Will the muta snipe happen shortly after the energy upgrade finishes? If not, maelstrom can easily be researched after the 2 other upgrades and before you will encounter mutas without delaying anything at all. And even if your attack is slightly delayed, the increased strength due to mass storms because of denied sniping will be worth it.
On October 15 2009 17:14 sauc wrote: Landing a maelstrom on moving mutas isn't exactly easy to do either and not something I see protoss relying as a key to winning the game.. What if you miss? mutas are air units and much faster then hydras its not the same as storming
Yesterday I played 2 2v2s where I was zerg and got maelstromed. In the first game the maelstrom hit the instant I saw the DA. No chance for any of my mutas. The second game I saw the DA early enough and kept my distance. He still managed to catch me eventually. True, a 2v2 is a different setting, but it certainly shows that maelstroming mutas is not as hard as you say. And here's the reason: Mutas are usually not perfectly stacked against HTs because you don't have to do a maximum range hit and run as you do against terran. You can instead get very close to the HTs and make the toss storm his own units. A better stack is potentially more harmful to the mutas due to splash. That's why the muta stack will be larger than a single muta, and actually is a huge blob to click on. It doesn't matter which muta you click because maelstrom will affect them all as long as you really click a muta. Compare that to terrans who have to irradiate a perfect muta stack but try not to hit the one right in the center because that one is easy to pull out for the zerg.
The guy went to muta, so it worked PERFECTLY as we have discussed. Even though I admit this is not a typical PvZ match and the guy played rather slow and sloppy... I would say the guy was rather greedy...(¬_¬)
Now the main point is that It does not require too much apm or resources, and since I am a low level player and it went so good I guess people with more level than me can do it MUCH better... it is all about timing and well use of that unit.
I would agree that at higher levels it would be little bit more difficult to pull off with the right timing i guess it will have the effect that we are talking about...
few points to note...
I delayed the energy of the templar because I was aware that he was going muta but I strongly agree that energy research goes BEFORE maelstrom.
By the time I pushed on his 3rd I had 1-2 maelstrom ready (not sure how much energy I had available) and 2 full HT storm + my army... sure you guys can do a better job on that... more HTs and more units... so the quiz question of the day: How much mirnerals/gas did zerg lost in 1 attack including 2 hatcheries and few sunkens...?
About me (in other words, excuses for my bad play) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am a D/D+ Player.
Even though low level player I have never sucked so hard in my life at placing buildings... and mid-end game is extremely hard for me right now... so please just concentrate in the first part of the game... T_T
EDIT -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Didnt see this until now:
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
now this is Epic Pwnage... gosu style... when I grow up I want to be like that guy...
notes:
<amazement> he actually researched maelstrom before even storm and he was still on time for beating the crap out of the zerg... his unit count was excellent and i didnt even see a hiccup in his macro... I dont even know how he managed to tech up to have maelstrom/normal storm, corsairs, observers, few HTs and DA all before even laying one finger on the zerg... </amazement>
I must say that at D/D+ level zergs are more cheese style so he got the time to do all that when I usually have to face stupid 3hatch speedlings in my games... ¬¬
so that proves the theory that there is no great resource/apm preassure by just fusing 2 DTs and that after raping the mutas the DA was not useless... he did maelstromed some hydras... enough to force the zerg to go lings...
the thing with early maelstrom is that u need to be reasonably sure that your opponent is going to mut, if your to arch + da(timing wont allow u to go storm + mael because you wont have time to upgrate both before z's muts come in) and z goes heavy drones into mass hydra after his scourges it sets you behind(not that behind but you lose any possibility for a timing rush, youd need to switch to a macro style)
fast da is strong on maps where your 2nd nat is free or close to you(its amazing on maps like medusa - andro and its a decent opening on maps like heartbreak)
edit: ive been testing out pvz da openings for some time now, i havnt had any problems with fast da on medusa(sadly no one plays on it anymore).. it works great even if z doesnt mut because the close exp + 2nd forge up(if i do this build i get an early 2nd forge) compensate for the missed timing attack
The DA as we discuss it is not against 3 hatch muta builds (or anything that gets mutas before hydras), but against 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra into muta switch for templar sniping. If the zerg doesn't go for hydras at first, you defend just as usual because your DTs wouldn't help you there anyways so you can merge them, and you don't have to get the maelstrom upgrade that early. Or you actually see it coming and go for very early maelstrom and own his mutas. If you don't see it coming, I'd advise against very early maelstrom because you normally would want storm first.
yea that would be a good alternative if youd keep your scouting probe alive long enought to see his tech.. but usually when a good z sees that your sair is late they go straigh for muts anyways(i havnt practiced that timing out but im sure that 3hat lair>5 hat>mut would be ahead of your da+storm timing, da+arch would be able to counter it tho but then theres the problem of a mut fake into a mass drone+hydra style.. and if you dont morph your temps in order to get early storm you might get caught off guard by the early mut timing rush)
also you dont know if z is going to mut switch after his mass hydra in order for you to da(your basically just hoping for him to do the switch so you have a cute counter), i use my first 2 dts as a runin or to harass z's drones so for a player like me it would be too expensive + costly to remake 2 dts + upping maelstorm before taking another exp(im assuming your going to da for a fast 2base rush)
also i dont understand the part you say: "If the zerg doesn't go for hydras at first, you defend just as usual because your DTs wouldn't help you there anyways so you can merge them, and you don't have to get the maelstrom upgrade that early. Or you actually see it coming and go for very early maelstrom and own his mutas.", how would you know what z is going without sair teching? even bisu wouldnt be able to keep his probe alive long enough to check out z's tech.. when most p users do do an early game mael its mostly a blind counter(even at the progamer level you can see alot of games where p goes for early da while z just hydras, theres a rep of this right now in the tl rep section between pusan and ych[z-zone].. thats basically the psychological aspect of bw, mael works well if you know your opponent)
On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: yea that would be a good alternative if youd keep your scouting probe alive long enought to see his tech.. but usually when a good z sees that your sair is late they go straigh for muts anyways(i havnt practiced that timing out but im sure that 3hat lair>5 hat>mut would be ahead of your da+storm timing, da+arch would be able to counter it tho but then theres the problem of a mut fake into a mass drone+hydra style.. and if you dont morph your temps in order to get early storm you might get caught off guard by the early mut timing rush)
This is not the build I intend to counter with maelstrom. I should come before you have to research maelstrom (you want maelstrom researched right as you move out to acquire mapcontrol and secure your 3rd). In any case you spent at most 100/100 for DA tech at this point, if you even started the upgrade.
On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: also you dont know if z is going to mut switch after his mass hydra in order for you to da(your basically just hoping for him to do the switch so you have a cute counter), i use my first 2 dts as a runin or to harass z's drones so for a player like me it would be too expensive + costly to remake 2 dts + upping maelstorm before taking another exp(im assuming your going to da for a fast 2base rush)
You are not hoping for him to switch, but instead you are sure that, even if he switches to mutas, they won't be a threat. So you can design your gameplan around countering anything that is not muta. If he goes for muta, you have a huge advantage. If he does not, he plays exactly as you planned (unless he plays cheesy) and thus makes it much easier for you. And you have an advantage as well: If a zerg is fine with spending 900/900 on mutas that he does not expect to survive the HT sniping (or at least expects ~5 of them to die, and the rest to be on low HP), then that means that saving your HTs should be worth about the same amount for the toss (you'd have to consider the mining rate though). A DA costs you nowhere near 900/900, and in fact, if fit properly into your build it should only cost 100/100 or 225/200 if one DT dies. Even if zerg mines twice as many resources (meaning your HTs protection should be worth 450/450) you'd be ahead. So really the biggest problems around the DA should be the management and micro, but I am positive that it can be done. If you can deal significant damage with the DT, you might not need a DA anyways. If you just blindly send in your DT and hope that it might do some damage you should rethink. Counting on luck isn't going to get anywhere. Most progamers withdraw their DTs at the first hit, unless they are already killing drones.
On October 16 2009 05:45 iamtt1 wrote: also i dont understand the part you say: "If the zerg doesn't go for hydras at first, you defend just as usual because your DTs wouldn't help you there anyways so you can merge them, and you don't have to get the maelstrom upgrade that early. Or you actually see it coming and go for very early maelstrom and own his mutas.", how would you know what z is going without sair teching? even bisu wouldnt be able to keep his probe alive long enough to check out z's tech.. when most p users do do an early game mael its mostly a blind counter(even at the progamer level you can see alot of games where p goes for early da while z just hydras, theres a rep of this right now in the tl rep section between pusan and ych[z-zone].. thats basically the psychological aspect of bw, mael works well if you know your opponent)
Where do you get the idea of no corsair tech from? Again, you are aiming for maelstrom to support your first army after any speedlot/archon/+1 pushes. Everything up until this point goes as usual with the difference that you merge 2 DTs that hopefully survived and research maelstrom at a timing so that it finishes right as you move out. We are not discussing maelstrom at a timing similar to that replay.
For what it's worth, the Korean commentators make reference to the possibility of Dark Archons becoming a necessity in the following game: + Show Spoiler +
I think the key to why this will never be a solid part of the metagame is that getting a dark archon with maelstrom to counter mutas takes time and if the zerg scouts it and choses to not use mutas at all he should be able to use that small econ advantage. The minerals / tech time used could be used for more storms and archons / zealots.
the only reason you early da/maelstorm is to cut sair'ing in order to ground mass earlier while countering muts(if he muts u have an opening for a timing rush and if he doesnt u need to macro up a bit before coming out), if your going to sair and do a +1 timing rush and then switch into mael your totally screwed because z is just going to overpower you everytime you try to come out
i dont want to be the negative critic and all but the way you want to da is useless imo, however it would be nice to see a game of you trying out the b.o so i could get a clear idea of what you mean, if it makes sense ill try to mimic it in a few ladder games just to see what happens
After looking at some timings pretty much the way pusan did it vs ych would be the way I would suggest. I would have liked to see this as a hard 2base attack though which might have allowed him to simply run over small number of lurks.
straight sair->archives tech. DA asap and try to hide it in a corner or something. Then hts/storm. then mael in time for 100. mass zealot/4+ht. hts to archon as necessary for muta. robo as necessary for lurk. goons as necessary for obs sniping/lurk. By the time you move out ~10min DA has enough energy for 2 maels. In your large attack 2x mael the clumps. or you could go 2hts/storm before the DA and have 1mael by that time.
On October 16 2009 09:32 iamtt1 wrote: the only reason you early da/maelstorm is to cut sair'ing in order to ground mass earlier while countering muts(if he muts u have an opening for a timing rush and if he doesnt u need to macro up a bit before coming out), if your going to sair and do a +1 timing rush and then switch into mael your totally screwed because z is just going to overpower you everytime you try to come out
If the zerg can sacrifice 900/900 for sniping HTs, the toss can sacrifice 350/300 (in the worst case) for denying that and still be well in the game, no matter if the zerg actually snipes or not. Also, the zerg doesn't simply overpower you just because you make a DA and maelstrom. 100/100 is only worth a few seconds. The zerg will have at most 4 more hydras in that time, maybe 1 lurk + 4 lings. You will have 2 less DTs and 1 more DA. Suppose that you don't cast maelstrom on your worker line. Instead you hit 4 hydras (not the best hit, honestly), but DON'T storm them right away (unless the zerg retreats and you can't clear the hydras with something else). That means that you are at a 2 DT disadvantage, and the zerg has an obstacle in his way. And as far as I know, DTs suck against mass hydra or lurk/ling. In any case you wouldn't be overrun as badly as you imply.
On October 16 2009 09:19 StarBrift wrote: I think the key to why this will never be a solid part of the metagame is that getting a dark archon with maelstrom to counter mutas takes time and if the zerg scouts it and choses to not use mutas at all he should be able to use that small econ advantage. The minerals / tech time used could be used for more storms and archons / zealots.
and another one. please read the topic that you are answering to...
The minerals/tech/time are not delayed by DAs in ANY way... since you tech how you *normally* do, make DTs how you *normally* do, create HT's and research storm the way you *normally* do... the only difference is that depending in what you scout you will research maelstrom before or after storm/energy...
I agree with iamtt1though. the only thing i do not agree with his comment is when he says
"if your going to sair and do a +1 timing rush and then switch into mael your totally screwed because z is just going to overpower you everytime you try to come out"
1st) With a DA I dont think there is a need for a +1 timing rush. The DA gives me enough power to go for a well macroed push.
2nd) a DA is perfect for making the zerg think twice about harassing. Which is a good plus. also makes them think twice about trying to snipe HT's which is a bigger plus than the other one, and in case he skipped mutas altogether we argue that the DA can still be used to maelstrom (probably 2 times if you push out with 200/200 nrg) part of his units to make sure you are not overpowered and to make sure that you have some sure targets to land some storms...
if you dont want to waste all the storms those maelstromed units can be hit/killed with your normal army and then you have acomplished your task.
I would say that basically a DA would be there to remove the great threat that the zergs have become and force them to play more careful/predictable which is where the protoss are standing right now... toss are too predictable while zerg have this killer switches... a DA would make sure those switches are more careful and more "counterable"
but that is my opinion...
and actually iamtt1 it is actually perfect that we have some people objecting and criticizing because that way we can actually see if it works or not, and we can workout on the timings and stuff, actually criticizing is better than just saying that is a good techniq.
What about D-web use? Generally you have to build corsairs anyway. All you need is a Fleet Beacon and a choke point. A couple good D-webs, some photon cannons and goons and you can defend an attack.
But you can actually defend corsairs. Plus they're much, much more maneuverable, all you have to worry about is getting caught in open ground over a bunch of hydras. Well once you get a critical mass of sairs
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
Mind sharing one?
If I remember correct kwark did it to ret on ret's stream.
On October 12 2009 05:20 GreEny K wrote: Duh, havent you seen replays where people get mealstrom before storm and then have one archon clean up the mutas since they were all bunched.
Mind sharing one?
If I remember correct kwark did it to ret on ret's stream.
Haha, Kwark just keeled over and died that after the maelstrom though.
On October 17 2009 00:24 Kullosus wrote: What about D-web use? Generally you have to build corsairs anyway. All you need is a Fleet Beacon and a choke point. A couple good D-webs, some photon cannons and goons and you can defend an attack.
The cost of DWeb is immense. You need more than 1 or 2 corsairs, you need a fleet beacon (300/200), the web upgrade (200/200 iirc). DWeb is not nearly as effective as maelstrom, especially for defending HTs... Yeah corsairs work well against mutas, but you would still have to invest more than you'd pay for the DA, and by protecting your HTs you limit the mobility of your sairs. The huge cost for DWeb + several sairs affects your army size significantly more than a DA would. The spell costs 125 energy, which is even more than maelstrom. All together: DWeb doesn't stand a chance against DAs in the scenario we are considering. It obviously makes sense for heavy sair/reaver or sair/dt, or especially sair/carrier, but it will always be very map specific and harrassment/defense oriented, instead of mapcontrol oriented like DA play. We also were not talking about defending an attack on your base, but templar sniping, which commonly happens ouside of the protoss' base.
On October 17 2009 05:42 [ADT]-FaZiNaTe-[GeR] wrote: Whats about HTs in Shuttle with good micro?!
could this work i am new but i would do it this way.
+ Corsair,goons and archons no source or mutalisk should be able to kill the HTs?!
Or is the Shuttle toooo fast down against the mutas? but maybe with shuttle speed..^^
what u guys think?
ahaha. big problem here. If the ht's are in the shuttle how are they gonna storm? coincidentaly scourge? if the spires up they can just retreat a bit pop a few scourge and roll you
You NEED the storm to thin the Z army. By keeping the ht's on the ground there's the possibility you can get at least 1 storm off
On October 17 2009 05:42 [ADT]-FaZiNaTe-[GeR] wrote: Whats about HTs in Shuttle with good micro?!
could this work i am new but i would do it this way.
+ Corsair,goons and archons no source or mutalisk should be able to kill the HTs?!
Or is the Shuttle toooo fast down against the mutas? but maybe with shuttle speed..^^
what u guys think?
Shuttle is perfectly OK. It's not about speed, it's about HP. Shuttles are hardy enough to survive one hit-and-run Muta strike. The only concern are Scourges, especially when you move out and Goons are busy with fight on the ground. I don't know why this kind of solution isn't used more often. I've seen couple of pros using it, and it worked fine. Maybe it's underappreciated because it adds even more multitasking issues to Toss gameplay?
EDIT: For more dark-sides of Shuttle+HT, see post above.
Shuttle doesn't have a ton of HP either, and you can't afford shuttle speed unless you go drop heavy anyways, in which case you wouldn't be facing HT sniping in the field. Shuttle speed also takes quite a while to finish. 4 HTs have more combined health than 1 shuttle, plus the shuttle dies instantly to scourge (and the zerg most likely has 2 scourge out already).
One point I think we're missing that Day[9] would approve of us bringing up in this thread is how perfectly Dark Archon fits into the build.
We've already established that the timing needs to be developed and with the current build ORDER it doesn't fit, you're needing the 100/100 and the DTs for what they are developed for at that time. But, when the new timing is found where you can have the Dark Archon to establish map control, then it flows perfectly into the build order.
Think of it as a timeline; Dark archon sits at zero. Before the Dark Archon comes in, you've got DTs that wreck havoc on the zerg player and his map control. At zero, the Dark Archon fulfills its immediate purpose; prevent harassment and establish map control. But what about after zero?
The thing that makes Dark Archon so damn useful in PvZ and the reason it slides so well into this build order is how immensely useful Maelstrom is against late game ultraling defiler attacks by the zerg. Freezing clumps of ultralisks makes you win battles head-to-head; freezing clumps of lurkers under Dark Swarm allows you to avoid heavy losses and even swing the current battle in your favor. Two or three Dark Archons can immobilize an entire zerg army, leaving your powerful upgraded forces to sweep it away in sections.
Dark Archon has its place in upper-level PvZ, I'm absolutely sure of it.
Toss need to start 2 gating again. Not all the time, but sometimes. If zerg is never sure what you will do, then he cannot have already planned out all his perfect counters. P starts showing variety in their gameplans = P starts winning alot more. Duh.
On October 17 2009 12:23 Jadyks wrote: One point I think we're missing that Day[9] would approve of us bringing up in this thread is how perfectly Dark Archon fits into the build.
We've already established that the timing needs to be developed and with the current build ORDER it doesn't fit, you're needing the 100/100 and the DTs for what they are developed for at that time. But, when the new timing is found where you can have the Dark Archon to establish map control, then it flows perfectly into the build order.
Think of it as a timeline; Dark archon sits at zero. Before the Dark Archon comes in, you've got DTs that wreck havoc on the zerg player and his map control. At zero, the Dark Archon fulfills its immediate purpose; prevent harassment and establish map control. But what about after zero?
The thing that makes Dark Archon so damn useful in PvZ and the reason it slides so well into this build order is how immensely useful Maelstrom is against late game ultraling defiler attacks by the zerg. Freezing clumps of ultralisks makes you win battles head-to-head; freezing clumps of lurkers under Dark Swarm allows you to avoid heavy losses and even swing the current battle in your favor. Two or three Dark Archons can immobilize an entire zerg army, leaving your powerful upgraded forces to sweep it away in sections.
Dark Archon has its place in upper-level PvZ, I'm absolutely sure of it.
It already does fit perfectly into the build. Your DTs become less useful after the zerg has established detection/defense and has overlord speed on the way, and there are no additional buildings necessary, the only real investment is 100/100. Just like in his most recent podcast, Fantasy's Vultures become less useful, so he invests 100/100 in a dropship. The only timing that you might have to adjust is your attack timing, which might have to be delayed slightly to allow the DA to stack 100 energy / finish maelstrom research. But to compensate for that, your army will be that much stronger.
A DA has its purpose throughout the entire game, obviously. It fulfills its main duty of preventing HT sniping just by being close to your HTs. Later it becomes even more useful through feedback on defilers and maelstrom on ultras.
* Disclaimer * I have no idea if this works or not.
Can't the zerg just split his mutalisks up so that a MS doesn't do much? or at least as much? Or am I forgetting something, like size of MS or the possible defense?
You can't snipe HTs well with spread mutalisks... And once you attack a single HT with all your mutas, they will clump together so much that at least half of them can be maelstromed, no matter how well you are spreading them. Actually you can't do anything well with a limited number of spread mutalisks. And we are not talking about any 5 gas pure muta builds.
On October 17 2009 15:05 cinnabun wrote: Toss need to start 2 gating again. Not all the time, but sometimes. If zerg is never sure what you will do, then he cannot have already planned out all his perfect counters. P starts showing variety in their gameplans = P starts winning alot more. Duh.
big point! but just 1 little problem...
I have been thinking this myself. Start 2 gate builds or even 1gate have disconcentrated a lot of zergs recently and give me the upper hand for a few minutes of game, right now i am trying to squeeze a DA in a 2gate build... but here is the problem. You are working on 1 gas and it is freaking difficult to win against zerg on 1gas... and there is the other problem, expanding gets more and more difficult since I have noticed that when zerg sees that you are playing 2gate they upgrade their defences, go mutas and increase their zerling count, which btw is very hard to kill...
Whenever i've seen 1 base play recently the P player loses. It really doesn't seem viable these days and its not even going to be a big enough surprise to throw the Z off anyway i reckon.
Why is this topic still here? Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon. Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly. IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all. Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up. Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen. Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference. The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless. Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend. IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less. You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS. MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?! Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me. Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"... Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player)
Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base. Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas. With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough. DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals. 3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla. Go figure.
On October 17 2009 23:23 Jadyks wrote: Infernal sairs do not prevent muta snipes. Even 4 sairs can't kill a stack of mutas before they've sniped 3 or 4 and run away.
lol. 1-2 good storm + sair splash = goodbye muta. Remember Zerg is keen on keeping the mutas alive. Means he wont sacrifice 11 muta for sniping 1-2 temps cuz P just retreats, makes 2-3 new temps and attacks with an even bigger ball. Wanna do Mutas again as Zerg then? When P already got goon and archons? Sounds smart.
Edit: Let me point this out even more: 2-3 Templars = 450 gas. 11 Mutas = 1100/1100. Maths wins.
One question, can you cancel Archon morphing when two HTs fuse together? Because that would at least get more HPs so your Corsairs can destroy the Mutalisks.
using storm to kill muta harass means you're also storming your own units. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Plus it's way too easy to dodge storm with mutas, so you're wasting all the storms that could be spent on hydras.
Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta!
Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons.
Let me point this out even more: The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea.
Yeah, in the Shine vs Bisu on HBR game, Bisu's storms did shit all to stop Shine's mutalisks from massacring his templars, and Bisu had quite a few dragoons as well. Nowadays, it's almost as if losing your mutalisks is worth it if you kill all the templars, because without templars the protoss army will die to hydras. The same thing happened in Calm's recent ZvP on HBR as well. Calm was really behind and he just went pure hydra with templar snipes and he won. The protoss made some mistakes too by throwing units instead of solidifying his advantage, but still. I don't remember there being a lot of corsairs around when the mutalisk sniper squads killed the templars though, and that might be a big reason why the mutalisks were able to do their job properly.
yup da is used in more in psychological situations(if you know your player well) rather than it being more cost effective than sairs, for example i would cut my stargate and fast da vs a player like ret like 1 game outta 10(if u do it too much he wont fall for it anymore.. this would be like a cw build, ud use these type of strategies in important games after getting the timing down perfectly in ladder games) because he muts like 80% of the time when p doesnt sair so its a pretty safe gamble to take, if i catch his muts off guard then my zeal/arch follow up push is sure to be an insta-win(thats why most players dont sair if their gonna da)
On October 17 2009 23:36 Jadyks wrote: using storm to kill muta harass means you're also storming your own units. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Plus it's way too easy to dodge storm with mutas, so you're wasting all the storms that could be spent on hydras.
Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta!
Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons.
Let me point this out even more: The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea.
if ur gonna storm muts ur obviously going to do it smartly, ur not just going to storm them while their flying around.. u attack/micro with ur sairs and while theyre in 1 position u storm them
On October 17 2009 23:41 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, in the Shine vs Bisu on HBR game, Bisu's storms did shit all to stop Shine's mutalisks from massacring his templars, and Bisu had quite a few dragoons as well. Nowadays, it's almost as if losing your mutalisks is worth it if you kill all the templars, because without templars the protoss army will die to hydras. The same thing happened in Calm's recent ZvP on HBR as well. Calm was really behind and he just went pure hydra with templar snipes and he won. The protoss made some mistakes too by throwing units instead of solidifying his advantage, but still. I don't remember there being a lot of corsairs around when the mutalisk sniper squads killed the templars though, and that might be a big reason why the mutalisks were able to do their job properly.
Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS. Scouting mistake nothing else. He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware. Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas.
Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS. That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do.
You guys have said several times that DAs are useless when it comes to a point where zerg makes no mutas but instead goes hydra contain...
replay here is a replay that i played today in that situation... if DA can help in D/D+ levels why cant be used in the upper levels?
note: I had a nice army and I did have several HT's with storm. but I went archon > sair... which means 1) I didnt have enough scout information 2) had to merge 2 HTs in case he came with muta harass... but after I saw what he was up to I have to say that the DA helped me to break that contain easily (I usually have lots of trouble to go out of a zerg contain without reavers.)
also note that I was not playing FE, which means it IS possible to go DA for middle game with no problems (at least at low levels where zergs /= JD).
In general I will start including that unit in my army more often since it is more versatile than I thought at the beginning. If we toss start using that unit more I am dead sure that zergs are going to be more careful when playing with us.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why is this topic still here? Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon. Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly. IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all. Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up. Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen. Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference. The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless. Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend. IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less. You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS. MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?! Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me. Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"... Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player)
Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base. Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas. With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough. DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals. 3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla. Go figure.
Once again: We are NOT talking about muta right after 5 hatch. All your talk about timing is IRRELEVANT, as you are thinking about a much earlier timing.
1 DA = less than 2 sairs, so if you make 3 additional sairs, you can just as well get maelstrom and a DA from 2 fresh and newly created DTs. Since we are trying to recycle out DTs, the DA costs only as much as 1 or 2 additional corsairs.
As it has been said, corsairs are not half as effective in protecting your HTs as DAs are. The zerg makes those mutas for only one purpose, which is HT sniping. He is fine if the mutas don't live past that. By the time 4-5 sairs (the absolute maximum you could afford if you say a DA would be too expensive and you are extending a build that has 1-2 corsairs) have killed 9 mutas, the zerg will have sniped at least 2 HTs, probably more. A DA casts mealstrom and the HTs are IMMEDIATELY SAFE. HT sniping is completly denied. So for that purpose: DA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Corsairs.
300 gas and 450 minerals is MORE than 300 gas and 350 minerals, just in case you didn't notice that when you made your post. And that is the WORST CASE cost of a DA. Additionally the corsairs require another pylon, while we make the DA from 2 existing DTs. And even if we don't, 4 supply is less than 6 or 8.
A DA doesn't have to stand in the front row to cast maelstrom (range 10 is huge), and doesn't have to stay in place to keep casting maelstrom. Corsairs are open to scourge attacks and have to stay in place while attacking the mutas. 5 corsairs are not enough to instantly kill decently microed scourge and in the meanwhile protect HTs from mutas.
On October 17 2009 23:36 Jadyks wrote: using storm to kill muta harass means you're also storming your own units. Doesn't make any fucking sense. Plus it's way too easy to dodge storm with mutas, so you're wasting all the storms that could be spent on hydras.
Zerg doesn't even have to keep the mutas alive to be cost effective! 2-3 templars means the protoss ground army will always get overrun, so it's worth it even if the zerg loses every last muta!
Goons do not do shit to mutas and mutas can out-micro archons.
Let me point this out even more: The current solution of "Storm your own units and hope your sairs chase 'em off" is sloppy, inefficient, and is the reason for the current zerg domination over protoss. Come up with a new idea.
if ur gonna storm muts ur obviously going to do it smartly, ur not just going to storm them while their flying around.. u attack/micro with ur sairs and while theyre in 1 position u storm them
If you can storm smartly, the zerg can attack smartly too. Mutas DON'T stop. It's called moving shot. If you ever see a zerg player let his mutas sit in one place with an enemy around, it's because of either of these: 1) no threat to the mutas expected 2) the mutas have fulfilled their purpose 3) the zerg is a newb 4) the toss can only use storm on the mutas and doing that would hurt the toss more then the zerg (e.g. over worker line or over X HTs).
On October 17 2009 23:41 koreasilver wrote: Yeah, in the Shine vs Bisu on HBR game, Bisu's storms did shit all to stop Shine's mutalisks from massacring his templars, and Bisu had quite a few dragoons as well. Nowadays, it's almost as if losing your mutalisks is worth it if you kill all the templars, because without templars the protoss army will die to hydras. The same thing happened in Calm's recent ZvP on HBR as well. Calm was really behind and he just went pure hydra with templar snipes and he won. The protoss made some mistakes too by throwing units instead of solidifying his advantage, but still. I don't remember there being a lot of corsairs around when the mutalisk sniper squads killed the templars though, and that might be a big reason why the mutalisks were able to do their job properly.
Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS. Scouting mistake nothing else. He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware. Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas.
Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS. That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do.
You do NOT LOSE A SINGLE TEMPLAR if you have 2 corsairs, 1 DA and 4-5 templars. Besides, the surviving HTs in your sair scenario would mostly have less or no energy, while in the DA scenario, you use 2 storms at most to clear the maelstromed mutas.
Don't use DAs with less than 3 bases. Your economy has to be devoted to more versatile units. Breaking a lurker contain can be difficult even if you transition seamlessly into the optimal dragoon, HT, observer army. If you've spent money on DAs the game is over for you.
Mass hydralisk is somewhat more manageable against most zerg opponents, but nonetheless if you've invested valuable templar archives time into researching maelstrom, and you've used your earliest vespene to produce HTs, you'll probably find yourself at an insurmountable disadvantage against mass hydras as your zealots will need psi storm support.
DAs can only be used early game against mutalisk, but because zerg's tech and the nature of larva production are conducive to quick tech switches and unpredictable play (especially at higher levels), using DAs is not a +EV strategy. Unfortunately whatever expected value that you gain from anticipating mutalisk is more than lost by the cost of having to begin your tech very early because it takes so long to create an archives, build at least 2 DTs, research maelstrom, morph a DA, and get 100 energy. And even then you've only got one shot to catch the mutalisk; meanwhile, if the zerg does a quick tech switch you're fucked.
Thus, unless you have a special read on your opponent's plans and are certain that he'll use mutalisk, you will not find a long-term advantage in opening DAs in conjunction with a bisu-style build - or without a bisu build, for that matter.
All this said, DA use in PvZ should observe the following:
You SHOULD use DAs as a valuable asset for preserving a protoss mid or late game advantage because it allows you to maelstrom and kill elements of the zerg army that would otherwise simply run away. Thus maelstrom allows you to whittle down the zerg army despite its superior mobility. Feedback is also very valuable because of its quick cast and long range, and you can use it both at home and abroad.
You can and should use maelstrom to defend against drops by anticipating the overlords with the DA's placement. This is necessary, in conjunction with HTs, cannons and reavers, on small maps like Destination in order to hold the middle cliff bases against multi-pronged zerg offensives. When choosing whether to produce DAs, you should have AT LEAST 3 bases, if not more - otherwise don't consider DA production.
On October 18 2009 00:54 Holgerius wrote: So, can some high level Protoss please go out on Iccup, try this out and post replays? I would like to see how this works out.
i did a standard +1 zeal rush into da(the way its normally done), my timing was actually off with the da against his muts but it still worked, apart from muts da is really helpful against ground units in a clump, especially vs hydras http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22621
I fail to see why such a small investment as 100/100 (about 1 observer and half a goon, or half a HT and half a goon etc) will cost you the game against lurk contain, while getting more than 2 corsairs seems not to have an effect on that. Bear in mind, even the first additional corsair is more expensive than your investment in maelstrom. Of course I am assuming that you saved your DTs, and I also assume that the lurker contain is protected by overlords so that your DTs are completely obsolete. Otherwise the zerg couldn't snipe observes and the contain wouldn't last very long anyways. DAs are not completely useless against anything but mutalisks. They easily are worth 100/100 for example by catching a group of hydras that attempts to snipe an observer - saved an observer and scores a few nice kills if you have a storm ready.
Also don't always argue about precious research time - we are talking about maelstrom AFTER storm, and hopefully after energy too, but that would have to be tested by decent players. In any case the most important research goes through unharmed. That 1 cast to catch the mutalisks is sufficient. I have been maelstromed several times, and always with the first cast. Remeber that you click directly on a unit, and a muta is not the smallest unit in BW. As toss you should be able to focus mines which are way smaller and often vultures are blocking half of the mine's collision box. If you can do that, you can click a group of mutas.
Seriously, get the point guys: We are talking about getting a DA at minimal cost, at a time where DTs are almost useless anyways, after opening with a build that could actually use those 2 DTs. If the DTs die you can choose not to go for DA, you won't have started maelstrom research by then and won't have made any other investments in that tech. If you decide to get a DA, you would be best off adjusting your attack timing so that the DA optimizes your army strength best, but even if you don't the DA won't have a huge impact on your army size.
A tech switch from the zerg doesn't mean you're dead just because you morphed 2 DTs and spent 100/100, to get a unit that is effective against ANY zerg unit, and MORE effective against specific zerg units. If it was THAT simple, zergs would have 100% win ratio against toss.
On October 18 2009 00:54 Holgerius wrote: So, can some high level Protoss please go out on Iccup, try this out and post replays? I would like to see how this works out.
i did a standard +1 zeal rush into da(the way its normally done), my timing was actually off with the da against his muts but it still worked, apart from muts da is really helpful against ground units in a clump, especially vs hydras http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22621
Nice game, too bad you had only 2 probes on your main gas for such a long time
I guess you planned to go for DAs anyways, but if those 2 DTs had been part of a bo without DA, the DA tech could have been a reaction to the mutas you had scouted by that time. Storm wouldn't have been ready so much earlier either (well, 2 storms 25 energy earlier. You might have saved that forge if the zerg had bad storm dodging, hard to tell, and you might have lost 1 more HT there). Those mutas are not the mutas I intend to counter with DAs. Obviously it works to some extent, but it requires maelstrom before storm.
The nicest thing about this replay is that it shows that maelstrom also works well if there are no mutas around. You obviously were not perfectly used to the DA, so you still could improve its performance, but you already did well, so it can't be that hard to use it.
By showing that the DA works is not a pure waste of money even if it cannot be used to catch a group of mutas you showed that a toss is not doomed if he invests into a DA at a later timing and the zerg doesn't make mutas. By researching maelstrom after storm you can play your game until that point just as usual, and later benefit from the immunity against HT sniping.
it actually was a reaction,i was planning to just send the 2 dts in his base and just storm up but then i saw his muts were faster than usual so i had no choice
This is about the timing I am considering for maelstrom. The DA could have been merged a little later and still would have had 100 energy by the time the toss moved out. So you could just show the DTs to your opponent to keep him on his toes, but that really depends on the damage you expect to deal with DTs and the mindgames you want to play. Obviously in this game the zerg played right in the toss' hands by attempting a HT snipe. I wonder why the toss lost this quite huge advantage, maybe because he never researched HT energy. Anyways, it shows how extremely effective the DA is if it goes well, and how the timing works out. Now we would need some replays showing how well the DA does if there is no muta snipe attempt.
Finally we get to see something apart from this annoying theory crafting about 100 minerals. Well, the game itself was ok, allthough you had bad luck, because the Z simply did not use the HT sniping technique. Anyway the DA did not seem misplaced in a Protoss midgame army. I suggest you keep testing this build and show us your results.
In the end I think DA could be something that helps the protoss to success against these modern Zerg builds. Especially whet it comes to games like this, where the best Protoss player gets just raped by this muta sniping technique performed by some guy whose name i never even heard in my life, then it's pretty obvious that Protoss must adapt to stay competitive.
Guys, I've been playing around a lot of PvZs with it, and it does work -.-
Here is an example replay of a bit of the timing I am talking about, and the use. Aside from the DA usage, I had to go afk late-game to move my car RL and my brother took over so yeah lol, I checked rep when I got back and it may be corrupted as well xD so try not to criticize my play itself and the many mistakes I made like not attacking into only 3 lurkered sunkened up defenses with that many storms lol xD
Instead just focus up to the mid-game in this game and the timing of the DA that I think needs to be grinded out by more professionals as well as foreign protoss.
I haven't read the entire thread yet but the first thing that came to mind for me was Stork vs GGPlay, Dark Archon --> Mind Control Defilerzzz --> PLAYGGGUUUUUUU
On October 18 2009 05:22 spinesheath wrote: Check out the newest addition to the replay section, Bom2 vs PMBCHERO93 2 Koreans who are at B- at the moment. Dunno anything about them.
This is about the timing I am considering for maelstrom. The DA could have been merged a little later and still would have had 100 energy by the time the toss moved out. So you could just show the DTs to your opponent to keep him on his toes, but that really depends on the damage you expect to deal with DTs and the mindgames you want to play. Obviously in this game the zerg played right in the toss' hands by attempting a HT snipe. I wonder why the toss lost this quite huge advantage, maybe because he never researched HT energy. Anyways, it shows how extremely effective the DA is if it goes well, and how the timing works out. Now we would need some replays showing how well the DA does if there is no muta snipe attempt.
I was curious if it'd work for an earlier timing than the HT sniping window. Since Zerg can deal really well with Corsairs these days, and Zerg always go Spire/Den, why not not forgo the Stargate and just go for a 4Gate 2 Archon + DA push? Would it take too long for the energy? Mael would solve the mobility issues against the Muta harass, and I'm pretty sure it'd counter the Hydra break. It's short duration, but getting a Zealot surround would be easy.
Does Mael work on burrowed units? I don't know how well that'd work against Hyrda/Lurker/Ling.
Maelstrom doesn't work on burrowed units so it is useless against lurkers while burrowed but would it would give you a big advantage if you managed to maelstrom the lurkers before they burrow.
On October 18 2009 11:25 zergnewb wrote: Maelstrom doesn't work on burrowed units so it is useless against lurkers while burrowed but would it would give you a big advantage if you managed to maelstrom the lurkers before they burrow.
Well, if the the Lukers have to stay put, unless they be Mael'd, that gives you map control right? Seems like an easy opening for your 2nd expansion. I lose a lot of my games because my 3rd gets shut down. I'm by no means a top player, so if anyone sees anything wrong with this logic, go right ahead and point it out to me. I just don't like how Z has kinda figured everything out in PvZ. DA has the potential to be a wrench in the plans.
On October 18 2009 11:17 Cloak wrote: I was curious if it'd work for an earlier timing than the HT sniping window. Since Zerg can deal really well with Corsairs these days, and Zerg always go Spire/Den, why not not forgo the Stargate and just go for a 4Gate 2 Archon + DA push? Would it take too long for the energy? Mael would solve the mobility issues against the Muta harass, and I'm pretty sure it'd counter the Hydra break. It's short duration, but getting a Zealot surround would be easy.
The Crosair is useful alone for the scouting. Though the DA allows you to get away with building less, or even one, so we may see a few more of those build variants in the near future.
Does Mael work on burrowed units? I don't know how well that'd work against Hyrda/Lurker/Ling.
Nope, but lurkers do have a nasty habit of clumping together before they burrow, which is of great benefit in a mid-game battle.
I think the OP is essentially correct, and I've seen several pros/top amateurs do this effectively.
One of the biggest pluses to this adaptation is that is essentially seamless when applied to the current standard toss build. Toss has a wide range of ways to spend their gas in the midgame. As long as they are not trying for a very strong harass or timing attack, adding 1 DA + maelstrom research will have very little economic effect.
It doesn't mean they have to skip any tech, upgrades, or units; it is relatively small tradeoff.
I do think maelstrom is a more effective counter than extra corsairs. Sairs are more expensive, and can still be easily beaten by muta/scourge if they aren't protected by your army. 1 DA virtually guarantees he won't be able to snipe any HTs, providing your timing is correct. DAs can't be sniped and maelstrom can't be dodged.
blablabla spinesheath wrote a lot of crap and im fucking drunk blablablablablablablablablabla³³³³³³³³³³³³³³³³
HUGE TROLL POST HERE
You are missing the entire point infernal. You still can get corsairs as needed to combat muta initially, and the +300/200 minerals and gas for the dark archon is not much to factor in because most protoss builds nowadays already incorporated dark templar into their build for harrassment - and even then, it is not difficult to create two dark templar as the game is about to approach mid-game.
Sairs/archon/dragoon will not stop templar sniping...the Z can suicide all of his mutas in his worst case scenario and snipe all of your templar, and then suddenly P is left with a crippled army size and has to wait for templar energy to build up all over again on new templars, and by that time it's too late...
the thing is with a DA, you potentially do not have to invest so much minerals/gas into corsairs, and that is the advantage, because it keeps your ground army huge, whereas if you pour more cash into sairs, not only do Z nowadays deal with them easily, but you lose ground army size that way. Just 1 DA can solve that problem potentially.
If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas. Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas. Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
You utterly fail at maths: 5 sairs is 3-4 more sairs than the usual 1-2 sairs. 3-4 sairs cost 300-400 gas. 1 DA only costs you 300 gas if you made the DTs for the DA only. A DA costs you 100-300 gas.
300 (worst case DA) is the SAME as 300 (best case corsairs). Yes, really, it is. Making 5 sairs and making 1 DA affects your HT count equally in some cases, but it's potentially worse in the sair case.
If the toss retreats, as you suggest, the zerg has achieved his goal - he has denied the toss' 3rd base, and can possibly take an expansion. He also is able to apply pressure on the toss at a point where the zerg's macro kicks in.
Oh and you don't LOSE gas by making DAs. Get it, DAs ARE useful against any zerg army. Corsairs are ONLY useful against mutas, overlords, and, in large numbers, corsairs can help against scourge. Your 5 corsairs probably should rather avoid scourge, though, especially when accompanied by mutas. Oh yeah, corsairs can scout too, but you don't need 5 of them for that.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas. Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
Have you been watching progaming lately? Good players DO ''waste'' their mutas for the sake of sniping the templars.
commentators, especially nalra, is advocating just this lately. Almost every single zvp ends bad for the p as they get all their HTs sniped.
In a recent proleague match pure vs july, pure's 2 dts couldnt do anything because of exellent sim city. Nalra was like, "they cant do anything right? In this case it could be a good idea to retreat and morph them into DA." In that particular game, July didnt make mutas, but the point still stands. Those DTs didnt accomplish much in the protoss main army.
Yep. The DA thing makes total sense. Most P's get DT's anyway, and it has been pretty much impossible to prevent the kamikaze mutas from sniping the HT's. No HT's = massive Zerg map control.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas.
Math-time!
Crosairs cost 100 Gas each. 5 sairs = 500 Gas.
Dark Templars cost 100 gas each. 2 Dark Templars cost 100 gas Maelstrom research costs 100 Gas. 1 Dark Archon Costs 300 Gas.
However, since most protoss build 2dark templars anyway in addition to crosairs, you only really are paying for Maelstrom research. So the effective cost of a Dark Archon is 100 Gas.
Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.-
With the math above, what's more cost-efficient? A dark archon, or 5 sairs while wasting storms from a High Templar?
As for the "good zerg," have you been watching games, or generally knowledged about pro-starcraft at all, you would see that zergs are more than willing to make this trade (Mutas for sniping HTs), because the protoss army is powerless against the zerg mid-game army without Storm.
Crosairs can be an alternative, but all that gas you use is effectively 3 less High Templar. Again, we're not talking about adding a Dark Archon into a 5 sair build, but replacing the 5 sairs with the Dark Archon.
I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
Timing. Maybe I'm "ignorant", but I see no timing issues at all in the build. Research Mael after Storm, and push out. Care to enlighten me as why this is disasterous?
If DA is the next big thing, then protoss players should totally go mind controlling overlords for detection. That way they can skip the robo tech branch completely, freeing up even more gas for templars of all kinds of flavors!
On October 19 2009 04:50 okum wrote: If DA is the next big thing, then protoss players should totally go mind controlling overlords for detection. That way they can skip the robo tech branch completely, freeing up even more gas for templars of all kinds of flavors!
If MC research didn't cost as much as a robo, and gathering 150 energy didn't take so long, and the DA wouldn't lose all it's shields in the process and shuttles would be made from stargates, then MAYBE it would be worth it.
In reality though, since you'd have to basically get a bunch of DAs just for MCing (overlords can be scourged too. They take 2 scourges but aren't cloaked instead, and 2 scourges are built quite a bit faster than the time it takes to charge 150 energy) it would cost more than getting robo tech, which you also need for harrassment (HT/DT/Zeal drop), and later for reavers.
I would definately get MC a bit before the map is mined out, though, if the game is likely to become a stalemate.
How about dark archon/reaver to counter early hydra busts? It would obiously be a tech build, but you maybe could have a dt harass/distract while you get to the tech.
On October 19 2009 07:46 caldo149 wrote: I want to see a progamer do a Reaver + Dark Archon(Maelstrom) drop to destroy drones. That would be amazing.
lol I was daydreaming something similar today (Maelstrom and then Storm on drones)... but maybe you can pull that off in late game with a lot of things going on in the map.... mid game is just too much resource intensive for not dying to mass hydras.
and to the guy above you 2-3 seconds is what maelstrom lasts...
not really "cost effectiveness" but the timing, can toss get the timing for that? upgrade storm first? or maelstrom? if you up storm first do you get maelstrom in time? or if you up maelstrom first, can you get storm in time for a hydra push?
nal_ra: ... and here it starts. All those mutalisks need to do is stack up and kill the templars regardless of dragoon and cannon fire... as a Zerg, even if you make mutalisks like that, it's not a waste of gas. When fights occur amongst basic units such as zealots and dragoons vs hydralisks, zerglings and lurkers, there is absolutely no way a Protoss can win against Zerg. The reason why mutalisks come out later in the game to kill templars is to do a trade. In example, 10-11 mutalisks cost 1000-1100 gas. If they kill four high templars, the templars only cost the Protoss 600 gas. However, the templars are the core of the Protoss strategy. If the Zerg trades the mutalisks for the templars, then the Zerg is absolutely on the winning end of the trade.
I don't think anyone on this forum would consider themselves a greater authority on this game than nal_ra.
nal_ra: ... and here it starts. All those mutalisks need to do is stack up and kill the templars regardless of dragoon and cannon fire... as a Zerg, even if you make mutalisks like that, it's not a waste of gas. When fights occur amongst basic units such as zealots and dragoons vs hydralisks, zerglings and lurkers, there is absolutely no way a Protoss can win against Zerg. The reason why mutalisks come out later in the game to kill templars is to do a trade. In example, 10-11 mutalisks cost 1000-1100 gas. If they kill four high templars, the templars only cost the Protoss 600 gas. However, the templars are the core of the Protoss strategy. If the Zerg trades the mutalisks for the templars, then the Zerg is absolutely on the winning end of the trade.
I don't think anyone on this forum would consider themselves a greater authority on this game than nal_ra.
I don't think anyone's arguing against the fact that trading mutas for temps, even at a high cost, is bad for zerg. It's easy to see that zealot/goon army just melts against any mixed mid-game zerg army.
The question is how do the protoss counter? The pros haven't been able to pull any DA build successfully on TV. I'm sure they've tried various timings of DAs in practice. It seems that as of right now, tosses are trying for various timing attacks before the big hydra/muta ball rolls out. Rather than any sort of new tech.
A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.- I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it?
Which apparently is incorrect according to nal_ra.
Okay you guys are tiring the fuck out of me. I stated in previous posts that YOU HAVE TO MAKE 1-2 SAIRS WITH CURRENT P BUILDS ANYWAY. Thus making 3 more so you have about 4-5 is +300 gas. PLEASE read what I said.
Again: READ WHAT I SAID - I'll repeat it, one last time and slowly. If you trade all your mutalisks to snipe 2-3 templars (2-3 is all you get if there is massive sairs + good storms, AGAIN!!!) SUCKS. Of course I know if you can trade 11 mutas for like 6-7 Templars (Bisu vs Shine, Hyuk vs Stork) then OBVIOUSLY protoss loses the game. If those 4 Templars are all you have and you'll lose them, that's fucking bad news obviously. But really, if you lose all your templars ... if you have psi and sairs... YOUR FAULT, can't repeat it often enough. Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars... OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then. However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen. Proper scouting = thx.
Koreasilver: I just watched the Stork/Hyuk part u highlighted. You don't seem to get WHAT I SAID not vice versa. Tell me, where's the corsairs protecting those Temps? RIGHT. NO WHERE. Even I could have killed those Templars with mutalisks. Obviously sniping is fucking easy if P has no corsairs.
Edit2: Spinesheath: Denying the protoss' 3rd base is a stupid thing to achieve, cause most protoss go for heavy 7-8 gate macro first up anyway cause you can NOT take a too early 3rd against those kind builds Zerg is playing nowadays. Which is basically one of the core weaknesses of protoss right now.
No, I get what you're talking about the lack of corsairs leading to great mutalisk usage. The timing I gave for the video I posted wasn't about what was going on in the game at all but just the time frame for nal_ra's commentary that I translated. From what he's said though, regardless of what kind of damage your mutalisks take or even if they all die, as long as they succeed in killing templars then the mutalisks were not a waste of resources. That's the only point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter if the mutalisks die if they kill all of the templars, which means that suiciding your mutalisks to kill templars is not a bad trade. You have repeatedly said that throwing mutalisks to kill templars is a stupid thing to do because of the disparity of min/gas prices in the mutalisks required and the templars killed, but nal_ra explicitly said the opposite. Due to the suiciding being a viable action, even if the protoss has corsairs, you could simply just ram them in if you know you can kill the templars. Calm got +1 armour in an earlier game on HBR and the only thing he used his mutalisks were to kill templars. nal_ra wasn't talking about 6-7 templars, he said 4.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars... OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then. However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen. Proper scouting = thx.
I don't understand the scouting part. How do you scout the muta timing?
For one thing, PvZ scouting is ridiculously difficult at the pro level, due to ovie > obs and scourge > 1-2 sairs. And even then, it's impossible to tell zerg tech once they have 3 gas up an running. It's one thing to scout zerg going mutas early game when you detect quick 2nd gas. But by the mid-game there's no telltale sign of which tech zerg is going. Especially when you're looking at 3 base fully functional zerg bases.
Heck, even if protoss has map hack, they still can't get enough sairs in time before mutas come searching for temps. Any tech the protoss makes has to be in anticipation of zerg tech for it to work.
corsairs are pretty overrated against templar sniping. if you send scourges with your mutas, they make corsairs pretty useless, and corsairs don't do that much damage to mutas overall unless they have +1 or w.e, at least not in the time window that it takes the mutas to snipe 3-4 templars
On October 19 2009 15:10 Severedevil wrote: It sounds like Protoss needs to make six corsairs so they can scout + shut down muta plays. Is that no longer viable?
At least it is more expensive than a DA build. It already is with 5 corsairs. AND it is less effective, as it doesn't deny HT sniping, but only makes it less effective because the mutas can easily get 2-3 HTs before they die against 6 corsairs. And "good storms" don't help you so much if the mutas are above your HTs, so that you would storm your own templars.
Koreasilver: I know what Nalra was talking about and I understand what you are trying to say. If you just wanted to show me the VOD cuz Ra was saying it at that point - I'm not Korean thus I cannot understand what he is talking and it makes no sense. If you want to prove my statement wrong please search me a VOD where a non BackHo-Protoss loses all his 5 Templars even tho he has cannons+5 Sair+whatever guarding them. However it depends a lot on which situation it is. You can't just provide a quote and exclude the metagame situation they were talking about because what Ra said is way to specific to be something "general". Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over. But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point. Yes muta suicide CAN be worth it in the situation I stated above, however it is NOT if P is still close to home etc - now you tell me again blabla surprising mutas - AND GUESS WHAT - I'll counter with "scouting" once again.
How do you scout on good level? Have 350 apm alive and know how to dodge scourge. Sairs have almost same speed and due to spinning the angles you can ALWAYS dodge the scourge. Which is why I said good scouting is fucking hard as hell but it is neccessary and requires a shitload of apm. See BeSt vs FireFist for a nice example, for once Best was playing a nice PvZ - but the main point is his scouting was absolutely stunning, he knew EVERYTHING. That is what I do understand as "scouting". You CAN have constant vision of what's going on at the Zerg's base - if you're good enough. Also you will not move out without 1-2 archon + goon + 5 sairs + HT if you scout the mutas. Now tell me how stupid you have to be to still lose all your templars if you scouted everything...? Ofc it delays the timing of the P but one thing hasn't changed yet: PvZ from P pov is ALL ABOUT SCOUTING. If P always has the unitcombo, techs at the timings he will need them etc pp he will NOT lose the game except he's mechanically much much much much worse than his opponent.
Btw: Ever thought about hurting the Zerg before he even gets to the mutalisk switch? Zerg needs to have a very nice economy to be able to afford muta + hydra lurk follow up (else its just muta + hydra = you turtle and let your superior economy do the job) - see Jaedong vs Stork on HBR for example - Stork did an relatively early 2 dark templar drop and did hurt Jaedong's eco so much that he just had no choice but to hydra lurk only with his crippled economy because else he would had no chance to defend anymore. A properly timed zealot attack that sniped drones (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) can do the same effect, however, if you do waste your Zealots it will only give you time to cannon up + increase sair count + make an archon - because if he goes muta first its even easier to defend. IMO its harder to stop muta's if Z went for 1-2 group hyd first - but if he does you have pretty much a lot of possible room for harass... Please don't tell me about scourges >>> drop, I know the build, I know it is risky, but if you never take a risk in this game you never succeed. Zerg makes like average of 2 pair scourges against the sairs. Means you can still use your sairs to lure scourge away and still get the drop done etc. And if you damage Zerg's eco it always means he has to sacrifice something - either the muta timing - or defense - or his 4th base. Basically he has to choose something to go "all out" on. Yes Zerg can recover from eco damage, I know. But really, if you have this kind of eco advantage you can just continue to keep on massing before you move out with a ball that doesn't even care about things like 11 mutalisks anymore.
On October 19 2009 16:20 spinesheath wrote: And "good storms" don't help you so much if the mutas are above your HTs, so that you would storm your own templars.
See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages. Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars. It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge. It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely. Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then.
You whole talk about DT drop is off topic. We're talking about a mapcontrol based gameplan, not sneaky luck based play that obviously could never be standard due to extremely effective counters aka sunken/overlord/hydra/spore.
Did you notice that mutas only take 2 hits at most if they fly through a storm? That's 28 dmg. The mutas will be at 92HP, snipe the first templar, and from there every storm will damage your own units.
So you are basically saying that the best players in the world have awful scouting. If that is the case, it might be good to come up with a build that does not rely to 100% on scouting. Surely, if SC could be played PERFECTLY, gameplay would be completely different. But we have to deal with human limits. Dodging scouge takes the toss a lot of micro, while all the zerg does is attacking the corsair, and once in a while he might intercept a corsair with another pair of scourge. So constantly scouting with sairs takes a huge amount of APM and distracts from your other tasks a lot. Was it you who was saying that microing a DA will make you mess up everything else? You certainly have it worse if you need to scout 24/7.
On October 19 2009 16:20 spinesheath wrote: And "good storms" don't help you so much if the mutas are above your HTs, so that you would storm your own templars.
See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages. Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars. It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge. It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely. Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then.
I want to see a replay of you doing that my friend... probably you will get the "not enough energy" before you kill 2-3 of his dodging mutas or actually you would die really fast at the lings/hydras due to excessive micro when he just 1a2a3a you and micro his mutas around...
Also the key point of the DA is that it allows your high templar to maintain their current amount of energy.
If you have to waste 2-5 storms to minimally damage the muta clump, Zerg still is getting the job done with that sacrifice because you have no more storms.
And as said infernal, the muta snipe is worth killing 3-8 high templar. It is not only the physical units that are being killed, but protoss is losing a lot of timing because you have to
a) produce more high templar, costing you physical mineral/gas resources b) you must wait additional time for their energy to accumulate
Now P loses the timing on where he can move out and pressure the Zerg's army and/or take a third base behind that pressure. Z now has the advantage - in his best case scenario, he snipes your templar with his muta group and keeps 8-11 alive and can continue to snipe templar, and in his worst case scenario he loses all 11 mutalisks but has sniped all your templars.
The difference is that, P the storms and templar, which are effective based on time passed in the game due to needing accumulate energy, whereas the Z, even in his worst case scenario of suiciding the entire group, can create an entirely new group of mutalisks, that are not time and energy dependent and are still useable afterwards.
And that is all that matters. If your templar are sniped, Z is free to mass hydra/lurker/ling you till your third is gone, your army is gone, or they are at such an advantage that you cannot feasibly recover.
That's where the DA comes in, because it prevents the entire timing loss in the P mid-game by completely neutralizing the mutalisks - they cannot even suicide into your templar, and you are then able to take your third as well as move out on the map.
Honestly i doubt that a metagame shift can be done with just one unit on the battlefield. The way i see it is the DA being another target that can be sniped. wouldnt' storing your HT in shuttles do you better if you are so fearful of getting sniped?
Has been suggested before. Makes it harder to storm when you need to (unload one by one...), and actually makes your HTs MORE vulnerable. Scourge. You could get shuttle speed, but shuttle + support bay + speed upgrade is very expensive, and you also need the robo for producing observers at this time.
And a shuttle doesn't help in combat. Remeber that you are currently trying to acquire mapcontrol, not harrass, so a shuttle doesn't help you at all.
On October 19 2009 23:32 lavion wrote: Honestly i doubt that a metagame shift can be done with just one unit on the battlefield. The way i see it is the DA being another target that can be sniped. wouldnt' storing your HT in shuttles do you better if you are so fearful of getting sniped?
A shuttle dies to 2 scourge or 16 muta shots. Also, this is the same as telling a Zerg player to put his Defilers inside Overlords.
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over. But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point.
Take into consideration 5 sairs costs you 750/500, which cuts your templar count by 3, your goon count by 1 and zealot count by 6.
The mutas only have to kill 2-3 templars at this point.
On October 19 2009 17:34 spinesheath wrote: You whole talk about DT drop is off topic. We're talking about a mapcontrol based gameplan, not sneaky luck based play that obviously could never be standard due to extremely effective counters aka sunken/overlord/hydra/spore.
Did you notice that mutas only take 2 hits at most if they fly through a storm? That's 28 dmg. The mutas will be at 92HP, snipe the first templar, and from there every storm will damage your own units.
So you are basically saying that the best players in the world have awful scouting. If that is the case, it might be good to come up with a build that does not rely to 100% on scouting. Surely, if SC could be played PERFECTLY, gameplay would be completely different. But we have to deal with human limits. Dodging scouge takes the toss a lot of micro, while all the zerg does is attacking the corsair, and once in a while he might intercept a corsair with another pair of scourge. So constantly scouting with sairs takes a huge amount of APM and distracts from your other tasks a lot. Was it you who was saying that microing a DA will make you mess up everything else? You certainly have it worse if you need to scout 24/7.
Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative. It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours. Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL)
@ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said. But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway.
On October 19 2009 17:34 spinesheath wrote: You whole talk about DT drop is off topic. We're talking about a mapcontrol based gameplan, not sneaky luck based play that obviously could never be standard due to extremely effective counters aka sunken/overlord/hydra/spore.
Did you notice that mutas only take 2 hits at most if they fly through a storm? That's 28 dmg. The mutas will be at 92HP, snipe the first templar, and from there every storm will damage your own units.
So you are basically saying that the best players in the world have awful scouting. If that is the case, it might be good to come up with a build that does not rely to 100% on scouting. Surely, if SC could be played PERFECTLY, gameplay would be completely different. But we have to deal with human limits. Dodging scouge takes the toss a lot of micro, while all the zerg does is attacking the corsair, and once in a while he might intercept a corsair with another pair of scourge. So constantly scouting with sairs takes a huge amount of APM and distracts from your other tasks a lot. Was it you who was saying that microing a DA will make you mess up everything else? You certainly have it worse if you need to scout 24/7.
Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative. It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours. Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL)
@ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said. But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway.
Seems like you got confused because I didn't address the parts of your post in the same order. My comment about the "btw" part was only the first paragraph. My last paragraph deals with the issue of better scouting, and last time I checked, you didn't cover that in the "btw" part.
You know that nal_ra is 100x as skilled as you? Oh and DAs have been used way more than 0.00001% of the time lately.
So Ra said you should just get a Dark Archon instead of Corsairs yea? Lol. You're funny at argumentating. That whole post above is once again picking what you could possibly use "against" me and ignoring any arguments. You're not talking about the game itself, you're just trolling about how wrong I would be and how right you are. NO, I wasn't the one who said that Dark Archons are too apm intensive either btw. I said they're immobile, you'll still need a lot of cannons at your mainbase + nat else you just get countered once you move out with your DA. Just proves again how much of my posts you actually read. I didn't say all the good players are bad at scouting either btw, only thing I said was that Bisu scouted wrong vs Shine. Why you're always trying to falsify what I said? It's just boring me. Read what I am saying and answer to it or just don't answer me at all. You use Nal_rA as an example to counter me, when my arguments are based on Bisu/Stork/Violet/Movie 's etc playstyles. Makes sense.
Again, let me repeat this: give me one simple and viable answer as for why progamers do rather use corsair instead of dark archon? Oh and sorry if the ratio of DA seen in PvZ increased to 0,1% instead of 0,00001% because some desperate (and very bad, compared to their other matchups) protoss users are trying something weird at imbalanced maps.
Will continue to argue with others further, however not with you. An argument always requires both participants to at least listen to each other, and you are clearly not doing it at all. (Even tho it is obviously reading in this case, it's just a saying obviously.)
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons?
Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed.
M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.
On October 19 2009 23:32 lavion wrote: Honestly i doubt that a metagame shift can be done with just one unit on the battlefield. The way i see it is the DA being another target that can be sniped. wouldnt' storing your HT in shuttles do you better if you are so fearful of getting sniped?
Trying to snipe a DA with Mutas is like trying to snipe a Carrier with Mutas, that happens to be a lot faster and has an instacast ability to end the shenanigans right there.
On October 12 2009 05:10 valaki wrote: If the zerg ever gets to ultras it would be awesome to just mind control 6-7 of them. Vs lurk/hyra it's simply not worth it/you can use your apm for storms or reaver micro instead.
its better to melee storm on 20 of them rather to mind control 6...
Fine. Let's take a step back and look at the options:
Toss has problems against zerg lately. On almost all maps, and many standard games are lost in the same way, which is mutas sniping HTs and hydra/lurk/ling armies rolling over the powerless toss army. This has been addressed as an issue by nal_ra, so I guess we can take that as granted. (If you don't agree on that, leave here. This is the basis of this thread.)
We were arguing if the DA is a viable option to deal with this issue. Our results were: With the proper bo, the DA fits in seamlessly at the cost of 100/100 to 350/300. HT sniping is denied perfectly. The timing has been shown to work well, storm before maelstrom makes it possible to deal with anything before the timing in question appropriately. The DA has been shown to be useful in midgame battles, and the DA has been shown to be very useful in lategame. Microing the DA might have been somewhat new to those players, but their success at using DAs shows that it is not extremely hard. Conclusion: DAs are worth their money and they are playable with some practice.
You say that making 3 additional corsairs to a total of 5 and scouting better is the way to go, and DAs are way inferior than that. It is easy to see that 3 corsairs always cost more than 1 DA. It is also clear that the zerg has higher chances of sniping HTs when you are using corsairs, smply because corsairs don't stop mutas immediately. The corsair has its uses throughout the game, but they are mostly harrassment and don't supplement your army strength, assuming that major battles are fought against hydra/lurk/ling, as mutas are suicided to snipe HTs prior to the battle. Scouting better requires you to constantly check back on both your scouting corsair AND your main army. Evading scourge, mutas, hydras and spores is very micro- and multitasking-intensive, certainly more than casting maelstrom on mutas/hydras. We barely see a pro scouting like that, and even in the rare case it always is during an otherwise calm time. Conclusion: Corsairs might work, but it requires a lot of attention and isn't as effective for this purpose. Even if that wasn't true, it wouldn't take away from the viability of the DA.
Now since I obviously never address your posts: (THIS IS LONG) + Show Spoiler +
On October 14 2009 04:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: If you want to see why Dark Archons suck go watch JangBi vs RorO. And yes, Roro was aware of the DA.
I addressed that. Corsairs have failed more often than DAs. That doesn't mean they suck, though.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why is this topic still here? Sair >>>>>>>>>> Dark Archon. Make 4 sairs and you're save against mutas if you use them correctly. IMO the only big problem recently is that you CANT SCOUT ALL THE TIME with sair if you dont have 350 apm means the muta switch will be scouted too late or not at all.
This is a point for the DA. It doesn't rely on perfect scouting.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: Zerg also has the possibility of not going mutas at all - and 2 storms + 1 DA is just not enough vs massive hydra->lurker follow up. Remember zerg can have up to 50 Hydra + 12 muta or 60-70 Hydra OR 45 hydra+5-10 lurkers until the most "big" pushes happen. Means 2-3 or 4-5 templars make quite SOME difference.
Since corsairs don't help against hydras/lurkers at all, but still cost as much gas as a DA, this is a point for the DA.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: The whole DA idea is shit because its _JUST NOT POSSIBLE TIMINGWISE_ - sure if you scout muta and get Maelstorm _FIRST_ it will be on time to possibly maelstorm all the mutas if the Zerg is careless. Problem: IF you do Psi first, you do NOT have maelstorm on time if Zerg goes for muta right after the 5 hatch start + ~5-8 hydra to defend. IF you do maelstorm first you won't have Psi ready when Mutas arrive -> you'd need an Archon to kill them. Means you have not 2 temps but 4 temps less.
This refers to a different timing of mutas, which can be dealt with just as usual because no investment in DA tech has been made at the time this has been scouted.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: You speak about cost effectiveness? EVERY PROTOSS BUILD REQUIRES 1-2 SAIRS. MAKE FUCKING SAIR NUMBER 3 4 AND 5 IF YOU SCOUT MUTAS....?!?!
Maths.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: Tbh this whole fucking DA discussion is obsolote and just a "oh I'm too bad to use my corsairs proper" thing if you ask me. Yes, I am too bad to use my corsairs to the fullest extent as well. But at least I do realize that's my fault and not "me doing the wrong builds"... Really, it can be good for slow 130-160 apm'ish players (someone said LZ does it - he for example isn't really the fastest player)
Obviously even progamers have troube using their corsairs "properly". Time for alternatives.
On October 17 2009 23:17 iNfeRnaL wrote: Tbh _IF_ you get Dark Archons then do it like LZ does - gamble and don't get corsairs at all but rather 1-2 cannons per base. Then it is IS possible to have storm + MS before Mutas. With sair tech it ISN'T ! ! <-- can't repeat this enough. DA tech = 300 gas and 350 minerals. 3 more sairs than the 1-2 you already made = 300 gas and 450 minerals + no additional upgrade required etc blablablabla. Go figure.
Maths. Also again refers to a different timing.
On October 17 2009 23:28 iNfeRnaL wrote: lol. 1-2 good storm + sair splash = goodbye muta. Remember Zerg is keen on keeping the mutas alive. Means he wont sacrifice 11 muta for sniping 1-2 temps cuz P just retreats, makes 2-3 new temps and attacks with an even bigger ball. Wanna do Mutas again as Zerg then? When P already got goon and archons? Sounds smart.
Edit: Let me point this out even more: 2-3 Templars = 450 gas. 11 Mutas = 1100/1100. Maths wins.
nal_ra wins.
On October 17 2009 23:50 iNfeRnaL wrote: Bisu had NO FUCKING CORSAIRS. Scouting mistake nothing else. He got surprised by the Mutas and deserved that sniping for not being aware. Shine played mindgames too, first he used pure hydlurk twice with drop follow up and in 3rd game he went for mutas.
Once again. You do NOT LOSE ALL YOUR TEMPLARS IF YOU HAVE 5 SAIRS AND 4-5 TEMPLARS. That's just fucking pathetic micro if you do.
Doesn't say anything about the usefulness of DAs.
On October 18 2009 12:07 iNfeRnaL wrote: xD!
n/c
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: If people refuse to listen to arguments even the nicest nerd can troll a bit for once due to ignorance. If you make 2 DT's that still means potentially less fucking templars so... Maths still same. You lose 300 gas.
So do you if you make 3 more corsairs.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: Again, if you have 5 sairs + storm and you still lose all your templars, you're just doing something wrong microwise, sorry. A good Zerg will not waste his mutas for the sake of sniping 2-3 temps, p would just retreat and get an even bigger blop and laugh at the fact that Zerg just wasted 1,1k gas. -.-
A good zerg will do that if it is enough to grant him mapcontrol.
On October 19 2009 01:48 iNfeRnaL wrote: I don't really get what's so hard to understand about it? Also the timing factor is just unignoreable, as I said, it MIGHT work on lower levels but it for sure does not work at B+/A- PvZ. Which is what I can tell by experience...
The timing works, unless you are again talking about early mutas.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Okay you guys are tiring the fuck out of me. I stated in previous posts that YOU HAVE TO MAKE 1-2 SAIRS WITH CURRENT P BUILDS ANYWAY. Thus making 3 more so you have about 4-5 is +300 gas. PLEASE read what I said.
I don't think I ever calculated with more than 300 gas on sairs.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Again: READ WHAT I SAID - I'll repeat it, one last time and slowly. If you trade all your mutalisks to snipe 2-3 templars (2-3 is all you get if there is massive sairs + good storms, AGAIN!!!) SUCKS.
2-3 lost HTs is more than 1 storm on mutas after maelstrom. Possibly even with reduced mana on the surviving HTs. Good storms are harder to pull off than a simple maelstrom. Especially since your own units get in the way and storm casting requires anticipation, whereas maelstrom does not.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Of course I know if you can trade 11 mutas for like 6-7 Templars (Bisu vs Shine, Hyuk vs Stork) then OBVIOUSLY protoss loses the game. If those 4 Templars are all you have and you'll lose them, that's fucking bad news obviously. But really, if you lose all your templars ... if you have psi and sairs... YOUR FAULT, can't repeat it often enough. Point is BOTH Stork and Bisu were surprised by the muta switch because they did not fucking scout it and have ZERO protection (atleast that was the case in Bisu's game) except 3-4 Dragoons for his Templars... OF COURSE this is a good trade for Zerg then. However you shouldn't let this sort of conduct happen. Proper scouting = thx.
Doesn't take away from the viablility of the DA.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Koreasilver: I just watched the Stork/Hyuk part u highlighted. You don't seem to get WHAT I SAID not vice versa. Tell me, where's the corsairs protecting those Temps? RIGHT. NO WHERE. Even I could have killed those Templars with mutalisks. Obviously sniping is fucking easy if P has no corsairs.
Obviously not relevant.
On October 19 2009 14:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: Edit2: Spinesheath: Denying the protoss' 3rd base is a stupid thing to achieve, cause most protoss go for heavy 7-8 gate macro first up anyway cause you can NOT take a too early 3rd against those kind builds Zerg is playing nowadays. Which is basically one of the core weaknesses of protoss right now.
This is the current metagame. If it is stupid, all pro toss and zerg gamers might be retarded, who knows...
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: Koreasilver: I know what Nalra was talking about and I understand what you are trying to say. If you just wanted to show me the VOD cuz Ra was saying it at that point - I'm not Korean thus I cannot understand what he is talking and it makes no sense. If you want to prove my statement wrong please search me a VOD where a non BackHo-Protoss loses all his 5 Templars even tho he has cannons+5 Sair+whatever guarding them. However it depends a lot on which situation it is. You can't just provide a quote and exclude the metagame situation they were talking about because what Ra said is way to specific to be something "general". Ra said its a deciding factor - which it is - but it really depends a lot WHERE your force is. Of course if you are in front of Zerg and lose all your 5 templars being surrounded by 5-6 group of hydras its game over. But then again: You don't lose 6-7 templars which you should have at this time when you've got 5 sairs to cover them - which is my main point. Yes muta suicide CAN be worth it in the situation I stated above, however it is NOT if P is still close to home etc - now you tell me again blabla surprising mutas - AND GUESS WHAT - I'll counter with "scouting" once again.
Be it right or wrong, obviously this is the critical point in current pvz. Doesn't touch the DA.
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: How do you scout on good level? Have 350 apm alive and know how to dodge scourge. Sairs have almost same speed and due to spinning the angles you can ALWAYS dodge the scourge. Which is why I said good scouting is fucking hard as hell but it is neccessary and requires a shitload of apm. See BeSt vs FireFist for a nice example, for once Best was playing a nice PvZ - but the main point is his scouting was absolutely stunning, he knew EVERYTHING. That is what I do understand as "scouting". You CAN have constant vision of what's going on at the Zerg's base - if you're good enough. Also you will not move out without 1-2 archon + goon + 5 sairs + HT if you scout the mutas. Now tell me how stupid you have to be to still lose all your templars if you scouted everything...? Ofc it delays the timing of the P but one thing hasn't changed yet: PvZ from P pov is ALL ABOUT SCOUTING.
If progamers can improve their scouting micro that much, they can also improve their main army micro so much that they can use DAs.
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: If P always has the unitcombo, techs at the timings he will need them etc pp he will NOT lose the game except he's mechanically much much much much worse than his opponent.
He loses the most important units at important timings. HTs when the zerg is about to take full amp control and mass expansions unless pressured.
On October 19 2009 17:00 iNfeRnaL wrote: Btw: Ever thought about hurting the Zerg before he even gets to the mutalisk switch? Zerg needs to have a very nice economy to be able to afford muta + hydra lurk follow up (else its just muta + hydra = you turtle and let your superior economy do the job) - see Jaedong vs Stork on HBR for example - Stork did an relatively early 2 dark templar drop and did hurt Jaedong's eco so much that he just had no choice but to hydra lurk only with his crippled economy because else he would had no chance to defend anymore. A properly timed zealot attack that sniped drones (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) can do the same effect, however, if you do waste your Zealots it will only give you time to cannon up + increase sair count + make an archon - because if he goes muta first its even easier to defend. IMO its harder to stop muta's if Z went for 1-2 group hyd first - but if he does you have pretty much a lot of possible room for harass... Please don't tell me about scourges >>> drop, I know the build, I know it is risky, but if you never take a risk in this game you never succeed. Zerg makes like average of 2 pair scourges against the sairs. Means you can still use your sairs to lure scourge away and still get the drop done etc. And if you damage Zerg's eco it always means he has to sacrifice something - either the muta timing - or defense - or his 4th base. Basically he has to choose something to go "all out" on. Yes Zerg can recover from eco damage, I know. But really, if you have this kind of eco advantage you can just continue to keep on massing before you move out with a ball that doesn't even care about things like 11 mutalisks anymore.
You said yourself that I should better ignore this part.
On October 19 2009 17:02 iNfeRnaL wrote: See guy, that's what I'm trying to explain you since I don't know how many pages. Good storms mean they're set on mutas BEFORE they're over your templars. It means that you spread some storms around you and mutas get hurt no matter WHERE they dodge. It means that you use corsair to lure him into a position where you can snipe more nicely. Sorry dude, nothing personal, but if you don't know how to storm proper you'll die to nicely microed mass hydra as well, doesn't even need mutas then.
You can just as well maelstrom the mutas before they're near your templars. You only need one storm afterwards. And I mentioned that you only got 1 storm (about 2 hits = 28 dmg) and after that the zerg is above your HTs, nothing you can do about that.
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Nice how you ignore the whole of my post and go ride on the "btw" which was an alternative. It's kinda pointless to discuss with you, because you know everything better than persons 10x as skilled as you and you're too small minded to accept any other opinion but yours. Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons? Because dark archons are so much better, yea you're right. (LOL)
So far I don't see any decent arguments why 3 more corsairs are so much better than a DA. I am open minded enough to consider your arguments, though, or else I wouldn't bother.
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: @ that kid who was trying to bash me that I don't have perfect sair control or whatever: Read my previous posts, I stated a LOT of times that I do NOT have 350 apm that would be needed to do that and that I am obviously not good enough to do perfectly what I said. But until a certain degree, I guess I can, because I don't die to muta switches if the Zerg isn't 3x as good as me anyway.
It has been shown that DAs can be used effectively with way less APM. I say CAN. Corsairs obviously don't guarantee victory, and neither does a DA.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: So Ra said you should just get a Dark Archon instead of Corsairs yea?
I never said that. He said that HT sniping is worth it even if you lose your mutas, and you said the opposite. Check back further above.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: Lol. You're funny at argumentating. That whole post above is once again picking what you could possibly use "against" me and ignoring any arguments. You're not talking about the game itself, you're just trolling about how wrong I would be and how right you are.
I don't think I have to adress everything that is not relevant.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: NO, I wasn't the one who said that Dark Archons are too apm intensive either btw. I said they're immobile, you'll still need a lot of cannons at your mainbase + nat else you just get countered once you move out with your DA. Just proves again how much of my posts you actually read. I didn't say all the good players are bad at scouting either btw, only thing I said was that Bisu scouted wrong vs Shine.
Well, so sorry that I mixed you up with someone else there. Now the counter actually is an issue. Care to point me towards the post where you talked about that? This one really depends on scouting and corsairs would indeed be back faster to defend. Obviously only against mutas and drops, but they can't stop drops on their own. But even normal corsair heavy builds include cannons at main + natural, if you are thinking about that one game where mutas killed most of the toss' probes: the toss was very greedy. 2 cans, 2 retreating corsairs and newly produced units might have been enough to defend against this appropriately, who knows.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why you're always trying to falsify what I said? It's just boring me. Read what I am saying and answer to it or just don't answer me at all. You use Nal_rA as an example to counter me, when my arguments are based on Bisu/Stork/Violet/Movie 's etc playstyles. Makes sense.
I only used what nal_ra said to assure that HT sniping is effective even if the mutas die.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: Again, let me repeat this: give me one simple and viable answer as for why progamers do rather use corsair instead of dark archon?
It takes time to refine a new build. They are not used to DAs. They simply haven't yet. It took ages until the Arbiter was introduced into standard pvt, even though it is such a useful unit. Valkyries were largely unused until a while ago too. The vult opening against zerg is strong. All those builds were similarly strong 1 year before they were introduced, but they simply didn't get so much attention.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: Oh and sorry if the ratio of DA seen in PvZ increased to 0,1% instead of 0,00001% because some desperate (and very bad, compared to their other matchups) protoss users are trying something weird at imbalanced maps.
It's at least 2% (as a safe bet), if I would have to guess I would say 5-10%.
On October 20 2009 03:01 iNfeRnaL wrote: Will continue to argue with others further, however not with you. An argument always requires both participants to at least listen to each other, and you are clearly not doing it at all. (Even tho it is obviously reading in this case, it's just a saying obviously.)
Fine. Do what you want.
On October 20 2009 03:03 iNfeRnaL wrote: M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.
I would double check that statement about buildorders (including muta snipes/attack timings). Zerg play was refined while toss play has largely stagnated, with slight variations and some cheesy builds here and there.
Excuse my short answers, this took quite some time anyways.
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons?
Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed.
M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.
Maps has a lot to do with it, yes, I'm not arguing against that. But are you suggesting that Protoss players shouldn't adapt to the new maps? Are you saying they should keep doing the same thing and continue to get raped?
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons?
Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed.
M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.
...or just take a quick look at Heartbreak Ridge. It was once balanced for PvZ, and even favored Toss for a while. Now, Zerg has a 60% win ratio, and all signs point to the ratio rising.
I understand that you're somewhat "passionate" about the issue, but come on... seriously?
I totaly agree with Infernal view on DA and sair usage. I still think sairs(like 4-5) are much better because you go stargate like 100% of FE games . Maybe if toss invent some bo timing without teching into stargate l would be much cost effective to use DA.
Lately pvz is FE into really fast stargate and making a sair or 2 and you go to scout and woops you see 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hidra ( what a surprize! ) and stop making sairs thats 450 minerals 350 gas waisted for nothing because 5 hatch hidra totaly counter sairs with scourge. So why going stargate at all then?!
For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.
So as you see its really risky to make DA in like early/mid game because if you play any nonretarded zerg if he see DA he wont be switching to muta to snipe hts.
On October 20 2009 05:32 SkelA wrote: For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.
And there you go; DA is the solution to HT sniping. You said it yourself.
On October 20 2009 05:32 SkelA wrote: I totaly agree with Infernal view on DA and sair usage. I still think sairs(like 4-5) are much better because you go stargate like 100% of FE games . Maybe if toss invent some bo timing without teching into stargate l would be much cost effective to use DA.
Lately pvz is FE into really fast stargate and making a sair or 2 and you go to scout and woops you see 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hidra ( what a surprize! ) and stop making sairs thats 450 minerals 350 gas waisted for nothing because 5 hatch hidra totaly counter sairs with scourge. So why going stargate at all then?!
For example im playing z and i see toss is going DA no way i would spend my money on 10 muta so he could kill it for nothing better mass pure hydra/lurk/ling. Only mindless zergs would fly into normal toss army goon zeal ht supported with DA to try to snipe hts which is 100% fail.
So as you see its really risky to make DA in like early/mid game because if you play any nonretarded zerg if he see DA he wont be switching to muta to snipe hts.
You also go Archives like 100% of FE games. That's no reason against DAs.
Stargate is useful for several purposes that can only barely be achieved through other means: - Clearing any nearby overlords so that your DTs can secure map control until overlord speed is out. This is important because you need just that time to get your macro going and storm researched to be fairly safe from hydra busts. - Scouting. The first observer costs more gas and takes much longer to build: Stargate 1050, corsair 600, total 1650 of whatever time unit that is, it's build times as you can read them in a map editor. Robo: 1200, observatory: 450, observer 600, total 2250. Plus the observer is slower than the corsair and thus probably won't scout too much as scourge should be out or popping right as the observer comes in. Speedlots come too late as well, probe scouting is unlikely to succeed at that time. - helping against early mutas. You usually don't want to get goons at that time, and an archon and 1-2 cannons isn't very safe against good muta micro. Storm isn't ready when 3 hat muta comes in and even then it is unlikely that it is enough without support.
I'm not saying that no corsair builds stand no chance, but you'll have trouble if you play the rest of the build as usual. They are an integral part of the forge fe build as it is played today.
Your money is not wasted: 1-2 overlord kills can be expected, you get scouting information and map control through DTs.
If the zerg does not make any mutas then that's fine. That means that the toss has achieved his goal of keeping his HTs alive. Those storms make his army so much stronger and he also has a few maelstroms to use. Of course it would be better if the zerg made mutas and totally wasted them into a maelstrom, but it's not necessary. By the way, if you have any unit composition that denies effective HT sniping and the zerg knows it, the zerg won't even try it. Be it DAs, corsairs, archons or goons. You can either allow the zerg to snipe HTs and punish him for spending money on mutas in some way (I couln't imagine anything that would work for this, though), or you can try to deny it in which case the zerg won't even try it. Then it comes down to which of the unit combinations that you chose that denies HT snipe is the most effective against the zerg ground army. Corsairs - not really effective against ground armies, unless you are going any corsair heavy build which we are not discussing. Archons - suck against hydra/lurk, and cost way too much gas (a single one does nothing), which reduces your HT count. Goons - you'll need them in very large numbers and even then they need quite some time to kill off mutas. Large numbers of goons are bad for your HT count as well. a single DA: Cheap. Total denial, big stop sign for zerg. Allows the toss to contol the game. Similarly effective against any unit combination the zerg may throw at you.
DA works perfect in theory but in actual game is really different especially on progamer lvl.
Untill i see some actual results in using it real competitive game its just good on paper... I still use DA in normal games but in really late game DA is unmatched for his cost and effectivness.
Even if you stop ht sniping that doesnt give you autowin just it prolongs game while zerg is on 4 bases and making 5th and you are 2 bases and just starting 3rd on a map like HBR.... you are still on a disadvantage. and DA wont really help against defensive zerg with lurk hydra ling at all.
On October 20 2009 06:30 SkelA wrote: Even if you stop ht sniping that doesnt give you autowin just it prolongs game while zerg is on 4 bases and making 5th and you are 2 bases and just starting 3rd on a map like HBR.... you are still on a disadvantage. and DA wont really help against defensive zerg with lurk hydra ling at all.
No, you're right; DA doesn't help against Lurk Hydra Ling. You know what does? HT's and Storms. But in order to have those HT's you need the DA to protect them. Losing the HT's gives Zerg an enormous army advantage (pure Goon/Zeal armies get raped) that translates into complete map control so he can secure his 4th and prevent you from taking your third. From there on it's just downhill.
I just read through this with an unbiased perspective, and have to admit that the case for dark archons is very compelling.
Spinesheath's comparison of the cost of DA vs. additional corsairs seems fair and accurate (as opposed to previous posts in this thread which are solely counting the incremental cost on one side - e.g., I get 3 additional corsairs for no cost, but it's too expensive to get 1 dark archon + maelstrom).
It is more difficult to judge the APM cost, but as many other posts have indicated - the best way to tell would be to persuade a progamer or a very high level foreigner to practice with the DA build. Using corsairs effectively (while doing everything else) is also very high APM, so one would think that would be the trade-off.
Long time reader, first time poster. I have a question about a potential DA-use build.
The build I was thinking about is the +1 speedzeal/archon 4gate timing attack to heavily attack the zerg when it's doing a non-lurker build (3hatch muta, 3hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra). Could taking an earlier second gas, researching maelstrom, and sending one DA along with the push increase its effectiveness if they opted for faster mutas? The reason I think this might work is because the zerg player might panic and transition straight to mutas if they suspect a +1 speedzeal rush, but by delaying the attack slightly and sending in 1 DA and 3 archons (instead of the standard 2 archons) it can mael the expected mutas and the archons can help deal with the defending muta/ling. I think this would be best if you could somehow convince your opponent that you were doing a +1speedzeal rush then delaying your rush timing to get the DA necessary to stop their muta counter.
Microing the DA and archons is risky, but I think that if the attack were done early enough it could be more effective than the standard 4gate 2archon build. Also, since the gas req is the same (2dts+mael=2hts) you can still tech into the necessary direction, just with slightly fewer minerals to spend on defenses.
just putting in my 2 cents. if DAs were created early enough in the game and given time to get mael/energy wouldn't they also complement the HTs storm? i mean, mael+storm = death for pretty much all zerg units yes?
On October 20 2009 13:01 kirbyraeg wrote: Long time reader, first time poster. I have a question about a potential DA-use build.
The build I was thinking about is the +1 speedzeal/archon 4gate timing attack to heavily attack the zerg when it's doing a non-lurker build (3hatch muta, 3hatch spire into 5 hatch hydra). Could taking an earlier second gas, researching maelstrom, and sending one DA along with the push increase its effectiveness if they opted for faster mutas? The reason I think this might work is because the zerg player might panic and transition straight to mutas if they suspect a +1 speedzeal rush, but by delaying the attack slightly and sending in 1 DA and 3 archons (instead of the standard 2 archons) it can mael the expected mutas and the archons can help deal with the defending muta/ling. I think this would be best if you could somehow convince your opponent that you were doing a +1speedzeal rush then delaying your rush timing to get the DA necessary to stop their muta counter.
Microing the DA and archons is risky, but I think that if the attack were done early enough it could be more effective than the standard 4gate 2archon build. Also, since the gas req is the same (2dts+mael=2hts) you can still tech into the necessary direction, just with slightly fewer minerals to spend on defenses.
Imo the DA fits better into a standard bisu build, but the optimal bo obviously still has to be figured out. But one thing is for sure: You can't have enough energy on a DA] by the time you would want to go out with a speedzeal/archon attack. If you want to have a DA in such an attack, you would have to delay it by quite some time (more precisely: The time it takes to accumulate 50 energy, which should be enough for the zerg to get quite some army up).
I think Dark Archons are so hard to handle because they don't have an damaging effect on the opponent. (Unlike storm, irridiate or plague) It would be great to see use of all those lesser used units.
Observers and shuttles don't deal damage either, and still they are not so hard to use. Arbiters would be better in most cases if they had no attack, since they would then retreat if attacked by a turret/gol. Stasis is somewhat similar to maelstrom. Medics don't deal damage, but they help keeping your marined alive. DAs don't deal damage, but they help keeping your HTs alive.
Support units don't have to deal damage to be useful.
gj spines, finally you did take the time to atleast answer somewhat decently to what I said. Still you left out a lot of details, and everything I would say is just a repeat of what I already said anyway. Main point is sairs mobility >> even mutalisks. Why are mutalisks strong? Cause they're mobile³. Even if Z would only use the mutas to make you build 3-4 cannons at natural+main (compared to one or so if you go for sair heavy shit). I agree that DA _CAN_ be good but... I dunno it just has a lot of disadvantages to me, experiencewise
Now I wonder if you actually read my post. I asked you to tell me where you mentioned the countering issue. I am quite sure I covered all the relevant things, but if you can point me towards a few of those many details I omitted, feel free to tell me.
So far the ONLY disadvantage you were able to point out was that they are not as good at defending muta backstabs. This can be dealt with fairly well by not moving out too far until your bases are defended appropriately. We are not talking about beating mutalisks and their mobility. We are talking about keeping enough HTs alive to stand a chance against hydra/lurk/ling. Muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous at that point of the game anymore because you should have a few cannons at every base (regardless of sair count - you'll be out of probes before your corsairs can defend if you are greedy), and you should be producing a healthy number of goon/ht, and you should have 1-2 corsairs. These units are enough to keep the damage low, and the money the zerg spent on mutas will be missing on the field, without having sniped any HTs.
Oh and in that long post I didn't say anything that I haven't said before. So my answers have always been "somewhat decent".
On October 20 2009 22:07 iNfeRnaL wrote: gj spines, finally you did take the time to atleast answer somewhat decently to what I said. Still you left out a lot of details, and everything I would say is just a repeat of what I already said anyway. Main point is sairs mobility >> even mutalisks. Why are mutalisks strong? Cause they're mobile³. Even if Z would only use the mutas to make you build 3-4 cannons at natural+main (compared to one or so if you go for sair heavy shit). I agree that DA _CAN_ be good but... I dunno it just has a lot of disadvantages to me, experiencewise
Corsairs are not that good against muta if there's also scourges unless you're going a very sair heavy build you need cannons at natural and main either way .
DA is there to protect your HTs when you move out. If you try to use corsairs, he clones scourges to your sairs, while coming in with mutas for the templar snipe, there's not much you can do unless you also have a lot of dragoons/archons in your army, which you probably don't since you spent the gas on sairs and ht.
with a DA you can keep your scouting sairs safely at home with your cannons (until you need them), when the mutas come maelstrom + 1 storm + 1 archon = dead muta stack.
how is this not better than getting 3 extra sairs when you generally get dts anyways to scare the zerg into getting overlord speed faster, and etc.
plus DA's have tons of shield and are fast. if you only have 100 energy when the mutas first come, you can maelstrom once, and just send it back to your base, and chances are it will live (unlike a templar which you pretty much just have to fuse after you use up their energy.) So you can reuse the same DA several times for the same purpose.
As for corsairs being more mobile than DA, templars are REALLY immobile, as long as DA is as fast/faster than templars (which it is) it can keep up and do its job just fine.
is anyone trying to work up a feasible build for this? i'm experimenting with the 4gate build. instead of making 4 hts, i make 2dts and 2 hts. send the 2 dts and 3 sairs to harass their third. then run back, morph into DA and malestrom should be ready in time. it will need some refining though
Several ways we have seen so far: 1) straight DA tech - like pusan vs ych 2) sair/+1speedlot to DA - like bom vs mbc 3) +1speedlot to DA first - like TT1 rep
Thing is, they are all pretty much the same with slight differences. Its not like one is clearly the way to go. They all have in common dts as first archive units and being morphed asap. The difference between 1 & 2 is attack vs faster DA, both are viable. Option 3 is a mix between 1 and 2 in that it allows for an attack & DA as fast as with straight tech due to no stargate.
I was thinking about morphing the DA somewhere closer to the harrass spot so that you don't have to waste so much time for running back and can instead accumulate more energy. Obviously this is a bit risky and map specific, but since your DTs were roaming just before, the zerg usually doesn't risk sending units around the map. If you run back to your base you should make sure that you have cleared the path off any overlords or other scouts so that the zerg doesn't see you going back.
Those ideas could help hiding the DA tech which makes it more effective.
iNferNaL needs to give up. I've been lurking in this thread since the start and his posts have little (typically nothing) to do with the actual discussion. spinesheath brings up a lot of valid points that iNferNaL dodges and instead responds with personal attacks. iNferNaL, please just leave it at "progamers and maps suck for PvZ. P.S. - I'm better than all of you" and go on to another thread.
On topic, I think that the DA is a great idea and I've been testing it out recently. Being a slower player (only ~150 apm) I often neglect to scout with sairs in favor of macroing and hotkeying/positioning units. Also, I find that most of the time it is difficult to deal with muta sniping because it happens so quickly that one of my HTs will typically be dead/in the process of dying as I begin to react to the 'under attack' alert. This is why I choose to give it a shot.
Naturally, when trying something new I haven't been able to find an opponent that does what I want (stack muta temp-snipe) yet so I don't have any replays. Too hard to find the right games vs. the right player I guess, bu then again I haven't been playing much. Anyways, the DA does fit well into the build order and it is ABSOLUTELY essential that you don't lose a DT early without doing serious damage with it.
I'm hoping to meet up with a friend or meet a cool guy on bnet that will help me test the effectiveness. If I get a good replay of this build order being used (win or lose) against a HT-sniping Zerg I will upload it for sure.
I think this is a great innovation for PvZ and if you play any Micro maps then you know how much it rapes to maelstrom then storm a group of any Zerg units. If this does become popular then I dunno how Zerg will be able to deal with it. My best bet would be Queens with Ensnare or Spawn Broodling. But now I'm getting way off topic and unrealistic so I better stop before iNferNaL starts flaming me too.
The interesting replays are not the ones where you catch and rape a group of mutas - it is clear that the DA was worth the money in this case. One exception: If you maelstrom his mutas but for some reason you lose soon after, the replay might unveil a weakness of the DA.
It's most interesting to see how well a DA build works in a scenario other than a successful maelstrom on mutas.
I'm a bit of a noob, so i apologize in advance for any glaring errors and such.
that said, i don't know the exact timing but what if instead of building a stargate, the Protoss player goes straight for Templar tech. Once they reach the the Templar archive, they start researching Storm or Mael depending on the urgency of whichever spell. If done this way, the player will actually gain 200 minerals and 150 gas, and will have completed research for both Storm and Mael at the cost of minus 1 sair and 10 seconds as they regularly would with the standard stargate to archives build. With the additional resources, the player could easily afford an HT for a potential Archon creation or for just more storm OR a different path (see later in post) Here's how I got those numbers: + Show Spoiler +
stargate = 150 minerals and 150 gas and 70 seconds build time corsair = 150 minerals and 100 gas and 40 second build time maelstorm = 100 minerals and 100 gas and 100 seconds research time Then I just added the cost of the stargate/sair and subtracted the cost of the maelstorm research. I did not factor in the cost of the Citadel and Archive as those would be built anyways in the standard stargate build.
Now, going off of what I was saying earlier. You would have a surplus of 200 minerals and 150 gas from not building stargate/sair. Now bear with my noobiness for a second. What if you spent those resources on a *gasp* second Templar Archive. I don't have the exact timing down, but I'm pretty positive that if you build a second Archive you will have the research for both Mael and Storm done at least 30 seconds (most likely more) faster than if you stayed at one Archive.
Now, before you attack the idea of a second Archive I want to say, yes, I realize that Archive will be ultimately useless in mid-late game. Additionally, you will no longer have the tech to get easy scouting (ie sair). However, if the Zerg goes hydra/lurker you will have Storms out to counter that; if the Zerg goes mutas, you will have the Mael/Storm/Archon to deal with that. Hence, scouting is less necessary as you would have the necessary tech on the field to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you anyways. Scouting for expos can be done with a simple probe scout. This takes care of the scouting issue (yes or no?). Now, this very very rough build is obviously puts a strong emphasis on templars to counter mutas. As such, stargate tech is not needed ever as scouts/carriers/arbiter are practically useless against Zerg anyways and the mobility advantage mutas have over Archon/HT defense is negated through Mael so corsairs are not necessary for defense (yes or no?). Furthermore, Storm/Mael is essentially the answer to pretty much anything the Zerg can throw at the Protoss (yes or no?). Now perhaps going for dual Archives will make this build an all-in build, I don't know, but I kinda doubt it. I have not tested this and as such I don't know if the timing will work. I am also not very good at Starcraft, but this theory (that's all this is, a theory) seems to work.
Either method you chose, whether to go with a second Archive or not, the idea I'm suggesting is to cut out the stargate and corsair entirely to focus on templar tech.
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs?
Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout.
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs?
Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout.
.... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural.
You can take a risk and not sair scout and just guess the Zerg will only do a few different things, but can't really be a standard build like that i guess.
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs?
Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout.
.... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural.
I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game.
That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed.
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs?
Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout.
.... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural.
I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game.
That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed.
Mael won't be done in time for 2 hatch mutas. In fact, sairs aren't done in time for two hatch mutas, you have to cannon up or open with archons. Same goes for lurk, the only difference is the cannon placement and having to open robo /goon instead of temp tech.
On October 21 2009 03:19 Holgerius wrote: And how would you scout what the Zerg is doing without Sairs?
Well the point is that you wouldn't need to. Sounds blasphemous and noobish I know, but think about it. This early in the game the Zerg will go one of two path, hydra/lurker or mutas (I'm ignoring cheese because you should've caught that with your initial scout at 8). The idea is that by cutting stargate, you have the tech to deal with anything the Zerg can throw at you this early in the game regardless of what they do. Hence, no need to see what Zerg is doing, except expo-ing, which can be caught using a simple probe (or zealot) scout.
.... It's really not that simple. The reason sair is so critical now is because zerg has so many tech options. If they open 2 lair lurk drop and you have no idea... other situations are 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra, and any 1 hatch/lair play. Any decent zerg will get ling speed and deny you from scouting their lack of a natural.
I see what your point, but my question is wouldn't you be able to defend against the 3 hatch hydra, 2 hatch muta/hydra and 1 hatch/lair with HTs and Mael. I mean, if they go 3 hatch hydra you need HT with storm to counter that, which you will have. If they go 2 hatch mutas, you use Mael to counter that. If they try to drop, you can Mael the ovies before they drop to prevent it long enough to get a solid defense. Of course, that'd require you to have a solid knowledge of your base perimeters, but you should be getting that anyways. I suppose one disadvantage to doing this is that you'd need to be able to react fast, as soon as you see the Zerg approaching. Some ways to do this is to place pylons around the edge of your base so that when you see the telltale ovie or muta you can get a DA there to mael them to buy you time to bring over your defenses. The idea I'm proposing relies on the DA to buy you time to allow your slow HTs to get in place to defend whatever the Zerg throws at you. I understand fully well that reacting is pretty much never good for solid SC play and acting is much better. However, I'm just suggesting an idea for how DA tech could be more fully used as a delaying technique that will transition into the OPs idea of having lots of DAs at full energy for mid-late game.
That said, I do see your point about speedlings denying ground scouting of expos. Of course, you could always just delay the stargate and get a sair after you get the templar tech and units out to scout. In other words, the sair scout would be there, just delayed.
The ideas you are posing for maelstrom with storm encourage defensive play, which is discouraged in high level level play. Lack of aggression leads to an over expanding zerg that can just consume the map because you're too focused on stopping everything. The build needs to be agile and dynamic, not defensive and rigid.
Funny, I was fooling around with this 2 Archives thought for a while too.
I don't think you gain enough to make it worth the cost of not having DT sair available for defense/harass/scouting. You'll leave yourself very vulnerable until your researches finish or you acquire the neccessary energy.
Day[9]'s doing a live stream analysis of the Bisu vs Shine game at 11 PST, so it might be of interest to the thread for some people to watch it.
That game's the perfect example as to why making a bajillion Corsairs did very little to help. A DA would've shut down the Muta harass and let Bisu get on the offensive. Probably would've saved him a lot of money too.
Day[9]'s doing a live stream analysis of the Bisu vs Shine game at 11 PST, so it might be of interest to the thread for some people to watch it.
That game's the perfect example as to why making a bajillion Corsairs did very little to help. A DA would've shut down the Muta harass and let Bisu get on the offensive. Probably would've saved him a lot of money too.
As Day[9] said, the muta harrass wasn't what killed him. It didn't harm him very much. Bisu went for a much earlier 3rd base than usual, most likely because of the map. The third on this map is very easy to defend. A DA build might have worked too, because you still make some corsairs and initially have DTs out, but I don't know if maelstrom would have been ready so early. You should at least have to wait for maelstrom to be ready before you can take your third if you see that the zerg gets mutas (which Bisu saw). On the other hand the build from that game probably doesn't work too well if the 3rd base is less secure, while a DA build would be stronger in that case because it has a stronger ground army.
Day[9]'s doing a live stream analysis of the Bisu vs Shine game at 11 PST, so it might be of interest to the thread for some people to watch it.
That game's the perfect example as to why making a bajillion Corsairs did very little to help. A DA would've shut down the Muta harass and let Bisu get on the offensive. Probably would've saved him a lot of money too.
As Day[9] said, the muta harrass wasn't what killed him. It didn't harm him very much. Bisu went for a much earlier 3rd base than usual, most likely because of the map. The third on this map is very easy to defend. A DA build might have worked too, because you still make some corsairs and initially have DTs out, but I don't know if maelstrom would have been ready so early. You should at least have to wait for maelstrom to be ready before you can take your third if you see that the zerg gets mutas (which Bisu saw). On the other hand the build from that game probably doesn't work too well if the 3rd base is less secure, while a DA build would be stronger in that case because it has a stronger ground army.
Well, the Mutas did their part by keeping Bisu contained and softening the Zealots up. Had he got a legitimate push timing before the Hydras got pumped out, there would've been some serious economic damage.
Also, in the time it takes to make 6-7 Corsairs, you can have your first Maelstrom ready.
On October 20 2009 22:48 spinesheath wrote: Now I wonder if you actually read my post. I asked you to tell me where you mentioned the countering issue. I am quite sure I covered all the relevant things, but if you can point me towards a few of those many details I omitted, feel free to tell me.
So far the ONLY disadvantage you were able to point out was that they are not as good at defending muta backstabs. This can be dealt with fairly well by not moving out too far until your bases are defended appropriately. We are not talking about beating mutalisks and their mobility. We are talking about keeping enough HTs alive to stand a chance against hydra/lurk/ling. Muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous at that point of the game anymore because you should have a few cannons at every base (regardless of sair count - you'll be out of probes before your corsairs can defend if you are greedy), and you should be producing a healthy number of goon/ht, and you should have 1-2 corsairs. These units are enough to keep the damage low, and the money the zerg spent on mutas will be missing on the field, without having sniped any HTs.
Oh and in that long post I didn't say anything that I haven't said before. So my answers have always been "somewhat decent".
I don't exactly know where I mentioned the countering issue, but I sure did. And its the main issue. Koreans with really good muta micro SHIT on any sort of defence that is not a corsair. I'm not kidding about this. It is frustrating sometimes. Even Archons are useless against them. 11 stacked mutas shit on 3 cannons as if they're nothing. 4-5 is what you need if its cannons alone who have to do the job. You'd need 2 cannons at maximum to defend from muta+scourge if you have some sairs. Your solution is "to not move out before muta backstabs aren't extremely dangerous anymore" - hey, look at it, this is what I was trying to tell you all the time - just for the sairs. If you have to make a lot of cannons you lose timing as well. So basically DA or Sair doesn't really seem to make a big difference - Mutas still make you stay in your base. And that's most Zerg can expect of his mutas to do usually, to buy him time to continue expanding, since a good protoss just should not go out vs 11 mutas without archon/goon/sair backup. Or a DA as you suggest - however as you admitted you will need additional cannon defence at home. It is ALL about beating mutalisks and their mobility, because that's what you said the DA is supposed to do. For example Zerg can just always visit your main a few times to snipe spawning templars every once in a while if you're going for DA and he's at the front. Doesn't happen that easily with sairs flying around. Please tell me, what is the strenght of mutalisks if not their mobility? Why do you think everyone makes a lot of sairs once they're on the field? They can not only snipe templars that spawn, not only harass your mineral line, but also keep you from expanding and just the fact that they're on the map will give the Zerg a lot of additional time.
It really is NOT that easy as you think, sure MAYBE the DA can work if you do several other things as you said - but then again it won't really make much of a difference either - because you just cannot go out early on vs Mutalisks even if you have a DA. And that's basically what the main problem is about.
On October 21 2009 01:50 chekyosikz wrote: iNferNaL needs to give up. I've been lurking in this thread since the start and his posts have little (typically nothing) to do with the actual discussion. spinesheath brings up a lot of valid points that iNferNaL dodges and instead responds with personal attacks. iNferNaL, please just leave it at "progamers and maps suck for PvZ. P.S. - I'm better than all of you" and go on to another thread.
Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself.
On topic, I think that the DA is a great idea and I've been testing it out recently. Being a slower player (only ~150 apm) I often neglect to scout with sairs in favor of macroing and hotkeying/positioning units. Also, I find that most of the time it is difficult to deal with muta sniping because it happens so quickly that one of my HTs will typically be dead/in the process of dying as I begin to react to the 'under attack' alert. This is why I choose to give it a shot.
So basically you just reversed what you said above. I wrote SEVERAL TIMES that DA can be a good alternative for somebody who is too slow to use corsairs proper. But believe me, DA won't save your ass from mutas as well if you're playing a good Zerg.
I'm hoping to meet up with a friend or meet a cool guy on bnet that will help me test the effectiveness. If I get a good replay of this build order being used (win or lose) against a HT-sniping Zerg I will upload it for sure.
And that would be the ultimate proof about how good or bad it is for sure...
I think this is a great innovation for PvZ and if you play any Micro maps then you know how much it rapes to maelstrom then storm a group of any Zerg units. If this does become popular then I dunno how Zerg will be able to deal with it. My best bet would be Queens with Ensnare or Spawn Broodling. But now I'm getting way off topic and unrealistic so I better stop before iNferNaL starts flaming me too.
In a micro map you only have Dark Archon + Templars + 1 group of units to take care about. In a real game this is different. VERY different. If you take argueing as flaming, oh sorry, I hope I didn't burn you then.
On October 21 2009 07:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here.
And I can safely say Nal_ra is better at PvZ than you, and he's on our side.
Skill or not, it's fairly logical. Corsairs don't insta-kill Mutas. They don't really seem to be that much of a deterrant because Zerg just answer that problem with a buttload of Scourge and just dodge the Corsairs. Corsairs can't stop suicide Mutas either. But an insta-cast stun has no effectiveness?
It just seems like air superiority is extremely difficult to wrest from Zerg, so why bother when you can have your ground army eviscerate them. Corsair scouting doesn't require air superiority at all, so it works out fine.
Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself.
On October 21 2009 07:31 iNfeRnaL wrote: Sorry but unless NonY Draco or White-Ra starts posting here, I guess I can safely say that I am better at PvZ than others here. Even tho I didn't say that as specifically. It's just what you assume. If you don't want to take my knowledge as a help, that's your problem. I'm not sharing it because I'm "uh so cocky" - if so I would keep it to myself.
How good the person is at PvZ isn't relevant to the discussion, and is ad hominem.
As much as I agree with you Infernal about the mobility and timing issues, you could stand to be a lot less belligerent. It's not like this is an idea that's obviously bad. It does warrant some discussion, especially given the state of current PvZ.
Believe me I tried it VARIOUS times at my own and I've been losing with DA's to the same Zerg I've absolutely raped the next game with sairs. I don't see how it isn't relevant how good you are at the matchup, I think opinions based on experience usually the most accurate ones, which is obviously the main reason why I don't really change my point, yes, DA _CAN_ be good I already admitted it. But the topic says if it is the key to the next metagame shift in PvZ - and that is NOT the case. It might be a good variaton, that's true - but it needs more than one unit to kill the stagnation that is there right now. And about the current state of PvZ - I can ensure you I still have my 60-80% winrate in it up to B+/A- ranks where it obviously goes down to 50-50ish the more you play. Why's that? Because we are still playing the maps that were used in Korea 3-9 months ago. Which again, proves my point of the maps being one of the key factors, doesn't it? I didn't really feel too much of a change except that Mutas get used more than ever and personally, I have nothing against Mutas because I deal with them pretty well.
If you know mutas come you can just go for 5-7 sairs right away + get many speedy zealots, an archon and 2-4 temps and time your Storm upgrade so it finishes before you arrive at opponents base (this would be usually when you have ~18-20 units without the sairs) - so in this situation the Zerg has 2-4 scourges if you did not show him the real number of your sairs and 11 mutas. Even if you lose 1-2 corsairs he still cannot use the mutalisks until he made new scourges, which is enough time to get at Zergs base. Usually IF Zerg went for fast mutalisks like that he will have ~11 mutas and roughly 12-18 hydras if he macroed perfectly. Which means if he doesn't have a lot of sunkens he's in HUGE trouble vs 15 1-0 zealots, an archon and 3-4 templars.
That is MY experience on the whole situation right now, it worked most of the time for me, IF I lose to this kind of style by Zerg, then it is usually because I did not have the appriorate number of sairs and thus the wrong unit combo which was caused by poor scouting on my end.
On October 21 2009 11:30 Kiarip wrote: White-Ra uses DA's
Well I use them too sometimes, but to be honest Ra doesn't use them a lot when it matters either. Yesterday in his games vs Mondragon he didn't use a Dark Archon in any of the games. Now you could try to argue that he wasn't playing serious vs Mondi, but I doubt that'd make much sense, right?
Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out.
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes.
On October 20 2009 00:46 iNfeRnaL wrote: Why do you think progamers make sairs in 99,99999% of the cases and not dark archons?
Yeah, and right now Protoss progamers are failing miserably against Zerg. Change is needed.
M A P S . ZvP while map test of the new maps was 70% winratio for Zerg. It's still the same game we are playing, the same game that "Protoss has been dominating" 6 months ago. It's still the same buildorders Zerg is using. Just the maps are THAT bad for Protoss right now.
If I'm not wrong, the zerg's aren't using the same build orders as they have. The 4 gate 2 archon build was used back in the protoss era and that was because this build explioted the greediness of zerg on 6 hatches.
Zergs have now tweaked the degree as to which they are allowed to be greedy and came up with 5 hatch, instead of 6. Hence, the 4 gate 2 archon is now so bad due to faster timing of hydras and good simcity.
Well, at least now you have a valid point to promote furiously. I guess all those long posts finally paid off since this seems to be the only major issue one has to consider when choosing to go for a DA build. There are various options though since you will only move out for a larger attack after you secured your 3rd base. At that time your economy is booming, and you will have not lost any HTs. It would even be possible to get more corsairs later on if mutas are a threat.
You don't have to continue talking about all those supposedly strong builds that hit the zerg early or whatsoever. Thiatis not the point of this thread. And it doesn't seem like too many progamers were looking to end the game off 2 bases.
For me this is pretty much settled now. It doesn't seem like too many new issues are arising, the DA has been shown to fall in nicely timing wise, and is effective against any unit combo. It isn't overly expensive. The most problematic part seems to be the defense against backstabs, or dealing enough damage to the zerg in case he invested into a backstab to come out equal. That should be very map and bo specific, though.
On October 22 2009 02:25 Hold-Lurker wrote: Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out.
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes.
From his winner's interview:
You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win.
- Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs.
On October 22 2009 08:22 Harem wrote: From his winner's interview:
You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win.
- Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs.
I believe this might be a doable thing but still even if protoss adapts then the zerg will probably come up with a new idea like queens for sniping(This was already done recently and is very doable)
On October 22 2009 10:13 swanized wrote: I believe this might be a doable thing but still even if protoss adapts then the zerg will probably come up with a new idea like queens for sniping(This was already done recently and is very doable)
Can you queen snipe DAs? O_O Edit: Never mind, you can't. I just checked.
All in all I have to say that DA's need to be tested now, people need to start using them in PvZ builds to see if they can work or not, I believe they can since the timing isn't delayed by that much and is made up for by the increased numbers of living high templar.
On October 22 2009 10:13 swanized wrote: I believe this might be a doable thing but still even if protoss adapts then the zerg will probably come up with a new idea like queens for sniping(This was already done recently and is very doable)
"Corsairs are good enough" isn't an argument for why you shouldn't use DAs. Zerg didn't get to 5hatch hydra by saying "hydras are good enough for deflecting corsairs".
If you're going to argue against DAs, argue why they're bad, not why corsairs are good enough. Yes, good corsair control and templar control can keep your templars alive, just like good Hydra control can keep your overlords alive. Doesn't mean scourges are pointless.
If you're going to argue against DAs, argue against the faults of using DAs. Infernal got it right with the mobility argument.
On October 22 2009 12:37 TheYango wrote: "Corsairs are good enough" isn't an argument for why you shouldn't use DAs. Zerg didn't get to 5hatch hydra by saying "hydras are good enough for deflecting corsairs".
If you're going to argue against DAs, argue why they're bad, not why corsairs are good enough. Yes, good corsair control and templar control can keep your templars alive, just like good Hydra control can keep your overlords alive. Doesn't mean scourges are pointless.
If you're going to argue against DAs, argue against the faults of using DAs. Infernal got it right with the mobility argument.
Exactly what I was thinking. Instead of arguing for the corsair, argue for or against the DA. The whole point of this thread is to debate about potential changes for PvZ play as the current PvZ play is (in the context of this thread) imbalanced.
On October 22 2009 02:25 Hold-Lurker wrote: Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out.
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes.
From his winner's interview:
You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win.
- Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs.
Count the corsairs he built and add the 100/100 from the upgrade. He invested HEAVILY into that build and got his 3rd extremely late (game was pretty much over by that time). Not saying that it doesn't work since obviously it did, but he could have gotten several DAs for that money, and kept one at home to help protect form backstabs.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
well that stuff only happens if you either
o assign the da to same control group(s) (either hotkey or click-and-drag-box style) with which you 1a2a3a
o fail to know about giving a unit the move command with another unit as its target (so it wont attack, but since a da dont have any weapons thats moot, and follow the unit in a close distance NOT running ahead of it =) )
o are to overwhelmed / stressed out by the game (some ppl would say you are choking), so you are oblivious to those 2 previous points, cuz you just dont care / are ignorant in this situation (which is bad, and a pro imho should learn to handle this stuff asap cuz else he wont have many chances to get to the top)
On October 22 2009 01:24 iNfeRnaL wrote: Believe me I tried it VARIOUS times at my own and I've been losing with DA's to the same Zerg I've absolutely raped the next game with sairs.
Do you have the replays? They'd be great for this discussion.
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
do you that because crazy-hydra saw the DA, he didn't make mutas, and thus the HTs were spared? if so, the DA helped in the psychological game, so it wasn't completely useless, even though it didn't do much
i think if toss uses the DA, he must keep it hidden so that he's sure zerg is going for mutas, but that the DA isn't so late that you can't mael in time.
On October 22 2009 02:25 Hold-Lurker wrote: Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out.
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes.
From his winner's interview:
You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win.
- Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs.
Count the corsairs he built and add the 100/100 from the upgrade. He invested HEAVILY into that build and got his 3rd extremely late (game was pretty much over by that time). Not saying that it doesn't work since obviously it did, but he could have gotten several DAs for that money, and kept one at home to help protect form backstabs.
the thing is, corsairs can kill mutas, scourges and overlords while maestrom + lots of goon fire -or- archons -or- storms must be used to kill the mutas. Plus, you can't kill overlords.
I think both are viable, but corsairs help more in the long run.
Were I playing protoss at a high enough level that this was relevant, I'd make two dark templar for harass as normal, but use them more conservatively than many protosses seem to - avoid suiciding them into sunkens or lings or hydras for one or two drone kills - and then consider morphing them into a DA somewhere hidden if they survived. Until it gets spotted, the zerg still needs to act as if you have dark templar out (assuming he saw one at least once), at least for a while, and you can research maelstrom after storm, when your energy will be built up anyway, to provide a deterrent against templar sniping. The downside of this, obviously, is that you won't ACTUALLY have those two DTs for scouting, harassment, and defense. You could always build three and keep harassing with one, or four and keep harassing with two, but that starts being more of a drain on your resources. Of course, assuming this actually has the potential to take out a muta stack before it takes out any templar - zergs won't respect it and avoid that tactic if it doesn't - I'd say it's well worth the early investment, if you're in a cushy enough position to afford it.
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg
thats why he sent them first
His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg
thats why he sent them first
His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work
That goal is set pretty high. You can only hope to maelstrom 3-4 lurkers at once if you catch the zerg completely off-guard. Lurkers are so big that 3-4 is pretty much the maximum you can get anyways, and the chances that the zerg has 4 lurkes right next to each other that early in the game are low. That first maelstrom was so funny. He could only have hoped to get a single lurker, with wouln't have done anything because there were 2 more lurkers around and burrowed/burrowing. Imo that was like storming a single overlord in the middle of the map.
I didn't really get the point of his build. The DA simply can't do much in such an army composition.
On October 22 2009 02:25 Hold-Lurker wrote: Pure's game last night focused on corsairs (with +1 air) and better positioning to protect his high templar from the muta snipe was pretty good effectiveness. The first two dark templar he lost while harassing without doing much damage. The game did show how quickly the corsairs were able to return to his main and protect from the muta backstab as he was trying to move out.
I'm unsure of whether his overall success was really more driven by his opponent's ineptitude in ZvP though. The mutas probably could have still sniped the templars if he sacrificed them, but instead he went into the main to kill the cannon and hit some probes.
From his winner's interview:
You used your Corsairs well ▲ I prepared it that way. I could have done a lot of damage with Dark Templar but I lost two to Scourges. I panicked a little bit, but I saved the other Corsairs and win.
- Protoss players are losing to Templar sniping a lot ▲ That's why you need Corsairs to protect the High Templars. It's a lot easier to use High Templars if you have Corsairs.
Count the corsairs he built and add the 100/100 from the upgrade. He invested HEAVILY into that build and got his 3rd extremely late (game was pretty much over by that time). Not saying that it doesn't work since obviously it did, but he could have gotten several DAs for that money, and kept one at home to help protect form backstabs.
the thing is, corsairs can kill mutas, scourges and overlords while maestrom + lots of goon fire -or- archons -or- storms must be used to kill the mutas. Plus, you can't kill overlords.
I think both are viable, but corsairs help more in the long run.
Plenty of corsairs costs the same as 1 DA and 1 Archon / 2 HTs. Yes the DA doesn't kill the mutas. But the DA + other units you can get for the same price can. And if you only have 4-5 corsairs without upgrades, you will be running from muta/scourge instead of killing them. Overlord hunting can't be done effectively with such low numbers of corsairs once overlord speed is done either. They still do the job, but they don't do it so well as you make it sound. Corsairs do nothing to help your army against the zergs ground forces. The DA variant obviously does. A DA isn't necessarily as effective as 2 HTs + 2 Zealots against lurk/ling, but it certainly is stronger than 3 corsairs. Unless you try to go DT/sair of course.
Obviously sairs and DAs create different gameplays, but imo the DA is better for map control, while the sairs are better for harrassment.
hmm i was wondering if implementing arbiters into pvz would be some sort of resolution to this zvp imba i hear of... im obviously not a high level player but some corsairs and arbs in to the mix would make it difficult to snipe templars plus there are alot of added bonuses, of course this would mean less gas for goons but unlike in pvt i think you would only need 1 and mayb 2 arbiters at max.. aswell i think since ur going less goon heavy reavers would be need to be implemented to more effectively deal with lurkers and lings. so mayb some p, players if they think this is viable can may be do instead of reaver/sair do a reaver/sair/arb... and than transition to a normal army of zealots/temp/archon/corsair/reaver/arb... yes i understand this is gas heavy so there will be a lot of your many going to manlots. and cannons to expand... im guessin taking a relatively quick third is in order because of the gas requirements.. just some food for thought btw... if this is totally theorcraft srry..
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg
thats why he sent them first
His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work
Erm, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hte DA literally running into the lurkers and lings. Sending a DA in first isn't equivalent to having the DA run into enemy units. Same with templar, if you're sending them into storm, you're not going to literally run up to melee range before storming them. Thta's what happens in every game I've ever watched pros use a DA with. And it still happens a lot with Protoss arbiters vs Terran, the exact same scenario really. Usually you 1a2a3a into the opposing forces and AS the templar are running up you storm the enemy, instead of having idle templar in the back, clicking storm and then have to have the templar run up. Well DA speed causes the DA to run up and be easy pickings normally. Although in this situation it wasn't a big deal - I think Kal was just the better player.
@ Weaponx3: The reason why arbiters aren't used in PvZ is because of the ease Zerg gets detectors. In the current metagame, Zerg usually keeps 1-2 often more overlords with the army in case of DTs/ Also, if you're going for the arbiter's stasis field you'd be better of with the DA maelstrom as you can hurt units under mael, but not stasis. Recall is an interesting idea for PvZ but Zerg is simply too mobile and often has such a large economy for recall to be used to its maximum efficiency.
I think one of the reason why DAs tend to run ahead into enemy forces is because most players just simply aren't paying much attention to them right now. In the current PvZ metagame, the DA is more of a luxury w/e unit than a unit that's central to a strategy, like the HT. If the DA becomes more important and central to Protoss strategy, pros and non-pros will learn to keep the DA more in check the same way HTs are kept in check.
so to sum up a common sentiment in the last couple pages...pros/foreigners/amateurs alike all suck at controlling the DA. Which is no surprise, as they have not practiced using a DA as there was no need to before.
and @infernal's sentiment of corsairs...of course they work, but it's is still up in the air. If you invest into 5+ corsairs, then +1 air upgrade will be necessary right as the cyber core finishes, which is fine really, it's the same cost of maelstrom, and in either case 100/100 is not that expensive for a more powerful mid-game army and mutalisk protection.
the thing is though, sairs are still able to be dealt with by scourge and mutas as well, so it is a matter of keeping them alive which is rather difficult, and on top of all of this, the mutalisks STILL can sacrifice themselves to snipe templar. So even in the case of corsairs, there is a high possibility that your templar will still end up sniped.
with the DA use being developed, anytime the mutalisks get in range, they will end up frozen and can be dealt with.
another thing to consider in theory, as well what P players already know from in-game experience, is that the difference between a 5+ sair production and a production of 11 mutalisks is huge. In the case of Protoss, we're talking about a long ass time to reproduce sairs to protect templar, whereas the time it will take to produce a group of 11 mutalisks is very small in comparison due to multiple hatcheries instead of 1-2 stargate build queues.
and yeh...arbiters are not going to work except in specific late game scenarios. it's too much resources + tech + energy accumulation needed, and on top of that, as mentioned above, detection is ever present zvp with overlords and maelstrom/storm > stasis.
also, for DA control, someone in this thread mentioned before about how you can right click a unit to make that unit follow another...that seems like it would be a good idea with the DA to keep it in the middle of your army by following a goon, or even your high templar. another option would be dedicating a hotkey to the DA, as P usually only needsd 1-5 for their army.
On October 22 2009 19:07 FabledIntegral wrote: Recent game that involved DA's, don't click if you don't want to know which one and what happened/who won.
Kal vs Crazy-hydra. The DA was incredibly hard to control which was the main reason I said earlier in the thread that it wasn't quite as viable. Despite being 100% completely useless to the lurker ling and only adversely affecting Kal really, the DA ran ahead in most of hte engagements, which is what I kept saying, just like Arbiters. To everyone who said they didn't understand why a DA would be running out ahead at all and dismissed me, I say HA
According to Kal, his intention was to maelstorm 3-4 lurkers before they burrowed, and catch mael'd lurkers with splash dmg
thats why he sent them first
His only issue with DA's is trying to decide WHEN to use maelstorm as he knows at that point of game he only has 1 shot of making it actually work
I think Kal's reasoning for that is that in the case Zerg does not build the typical mutalisk group he will need the DA to maelstrom 3-4 lurkers to be justified cost wise. Which makes sense imo.
I don't think anyone's said this so far, but maybe instead of using a DA/archon/HT/goons to kill the mutalisks before they snipe the high templar, maybe protosses could try using a speed shuttle to carry around their high templar, as it would protect your HT from muta, you can run it around your units, i think its a little faster then then mutas, as well as give the protoss much more mobility, not having to wait for their slow HT. Think that could be effective? o:
On October 23 2009 13:15 Iaaan wrote: I don't think anyone's said this so far, but maybe instead of using a DA/archon/HT/goons to kill the mutalisks before they snipe the high templar, maybe protosses could try using a speed shuttle to carry around their high templar, as it would protect your HT from muta, you can run it around your units, i think its a little faster then then mutas, as well as give the protoss much more mobility, not having to wait for their slow HT. Think that could be effective? o:
A few people have suggested this already, though there are a few huge problems, notably that a player would be fumbling around with High Templar getting unloaded and unloaded from the shuttle every single time the Zerg and Protoss armies skirmish. To make matters worse, you have to care for the shuttle like it's your dear child, or it will get scouraged. The shuttle's also very easy to snipe with Mutas if it doesn't have the speed upgrade, requiring you to shell 200gas/200mins.
On October 23 2009 13:15 Iaaan wrote: I don't think anyone's said this so far, but maybe instead of using a DA/archon/HT/goons to kill the mutalisks before they snipe the high templar, maybe protosses could try using a speed shuttle to carry around their high templar, as it would protect your HT from muta, you can run it around your units, i think its a little faster then then mutas, as well as give the protoss much more mobility, not having to wait for their slow HT. Think that could be effective? o:
Also you're wasting valuable resources just to run away more effectively. DA kills off the Mutas and deters any attempt at HT sniping. Whether or not this leaves Protoss vulnerable to backstabbing is up to debate.
Shuttles have been mentioned several times now, it's more of a risk than a gain. The risks are: - Getting run over while your HT are in a shuttle - Getting sniped by 2 scourges protected by a few mutas
Arbiters take extremely long to get, are very expensive. It might make sense in lategame, but for midgame it is pretty much useless.
Judging from many of the latest progames, it seems toss players have the found some good timings for corsair + dt for drone sniping is messing up alot of the timing for the 5 hatch build. Seems that muts are delayed to a degree which allows toss to do things. And also the corsairs build for OL sniping of course helps with handling the muta backstabs and ht sniping.
Same as some poster a few pages before,long reader and new poster
Looking at the issues that you all brought up with using DA, I do feel that usage of a DA is viable. The first and crucial maelstrom that can decimate a buch of stacked mutas can ensure that ur HTs do stay protected. However I do feel that both ideas are viable and have advantages but also have their disadvantages. For example all that talk about a DA is that u would have sticked to the bisu build and created the 2 DT for harass and map control. It would be crucial that the 2 DT used would not end up dying, so u would be quite protective for this 2 dt so that they can morph into a DA for the maelstrom. Isn't that the same as not even using the DTs for harass then? Correct any mistakes I made with my assumption.
I'm not trying to say that DA is not viable in using. Just 2 clicks and one hotkey and u get the job done for disabling a bunch of mutas while u can dispatch of in any way instead of the complicated trapping and storming with HTs and sairs. However, as u all are talking about the usage of just ONE DA, wouldn't it be very risky to just rely on that one DA? Also sairs do fly much faster and are much more mobile than their DA counterpart although the same DA could be used for late game. I think both ideas can be used but I rather we wait till we see a breakthrough in the usage of DA by the Protoss dragons in Korea before we try and fumble and think up some half cooked strategy that can only work half as efficiently as DA can be used.
No you actually are not limited to the bisu build and merging your initial DTs. That's the cheapest variant and is very easy to build on top of an existing bo instead of creating a new bo almost from scratch.
If you want to be able to match the potential of a DA in HT snipe prevention, you need a lot of sairs - I am pretty sure that a zerg isn't intimidated too much by the mere 5 that we were calculating with. I don't remeber too many games with 4-5 corsairs anyways, usually I see less or more than that. And even the 5 corsair variant costs more than a full DA + research, so you could very well afford a full DA including DTs and not lose money compared to 3 additional corsairs. That's why the DA isn't only viable for the bisu build.
Archon merging should be cancellable like lurker morphing maybe with a bigger delay, HT are too weak and slow, yet so important in PvZ. Cancellable archon merging would give them a reasonable chance to not be sniped before important battles.
On October 24 2009 02:27 lac29 wrote: Shield batteries proxy or not in early stage of game to keep corsairs alive?
Corsairs DIE to scourge. They don't get damaged, they DIE.
If they only get hit by one, which seems to happen to me a lot, a fully recharged shield would let them take an additional hit, would be repeatable 3 times I think. (80 shields + 100 hp = 180 , - 110 = 70 hp + 80 = 150 - 110 = 40, + 80 = 120 - 110 = 10) no clue if it's really worth it though.
On October 24 2009 02:27 lac29 wrote: Shield batteries proxy or not in early stage of game to keep corsairs alive?
Corsairs DIE to scourge. They don't get damaged, they DIE.
If they only get hit by one, which seems to happen to me a lot, a fully recharged shield would let them take an additional hit, would be repeatable 3 times I think. (80 shields + 100 hp = 180 , - 110 = 70 hp + 80 = 150 - 110 = 40, + 80 = 120 - 110 = 10) no clue if it's really worth it though.
I think the problem is that in the phase of the game where it's useful, it's too hard to defend a proxy shield battery. If it's too close to your base, your shuttles/corsairs won't reach it in time, and if it's too far, the fact that you can't cover it means that the zerg can send 6 zerglings to kill the battery/pylon.
It served its purpose. It denied muta from sniping the zeo/archon well into the late midgame which is the usual counter to zeo/archon. Kal was able to freely roam without fear of muta.
The DA basically eliminates the option of muta sniping from the table.
On October 24 2009 18:21 SturmAddict wrote: Im sorry triple7, but all i see that's been maelstrom'd, was his own units.
Although i did not see a single hydra/mutalisk in the game. which is wierd. Maybe the zerg thought he's against bio or something.
I guess zerg didnt make mutas because of the DA which is the point of this discussion... do you think he would like to get 5-9 mutas maelstromed/stormed + killed on a few seconds?...
I really find curious that he maelstromed his own units... nice mistake but I guess even if the DA wasnt maelstroming a lot of lurkers it fulfilled its purpose of keeping the HT's alive.
I think it is really ironic how many people here rejects most suggestions by "its too hard to control/dont have time to do it etc.".
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I was playing a PT v ZZ and I can tell everyone that I found maelstrom incredibly useful, however since the zergs didn't use mutas (at all!, I have no clue why) I used it as a kind of stasis for their mass hydra x2. Worked incredibly well, while zealots engaged the front hydras, most of the back ones and some clumped lurkers were maelstromed and I simply stormed the crap out of them and killed both their armies in no time.
With 3 dark archons and my army, it was easy to destroy a large group of hydras that would have easily killed my army regularly if I didn't have the DAs.
One really good use of maelstrom was that I could freeze hordes of hydras and basically nullify any possibility of storm dodging, allowing me to easily come out on top in confrontations.
On October 24 2009 21:36 Suc wrote: One really good use of maelstrom was that I could freeze hordes of hydras and it basically nullify any possibility of storm dodging, allowing me to easily come out on top in confrontations.
It's a beautiful sight:
I've been trying to include a DA into my C rank games. A nice thing you can try do is hide it in a shuttle, when mutas come in to snipe templars you unload and kill them all for free. The shuttle gives vision over ledges too.
You know, as far as the pro scene goes, I'm thinking that if the protoss doesn't implement DA into standard PvZ play, things are over for them. There just is no other way to protect HTs.
On October 24 2009 21:36 Suc wrote: One really good use of maelstrom was that I could freeze hordes of hydras and it basically nullify any possibility of storm dodging, allowing me to easily come out on top in confrontations.
It's a beautiful sight:
I've been trying to include a DA into my C rank games. A nice thing you can try do is hide it in a shuttle, when mutas come in to snipe templars you unload and kill them all for free. The shuttle gives vision over ledges too.
Yes! Now everyone can see that DAs give protoss an even greater chance of fighting much larger armies and coming out on top. It can be seen from those pictures that you gained a good advantage by killing a large amount of the zerg's force, with barely losing any units yourself.
If players begin trying to use DAs, even just for a few games, the results should be fairly good.
Dark Arcons are not a new unit, like 2-3 years ago they were really in fashion mode (: and there where big discussions about them usage, before the protosses decide what is better, zergs switchs theyr style and gameplay so DAs was passed from mode to a non used unit. Now Zergs switched again and DAs seems to be a good counter for an agressive play, for defensive still 2arkon 4-5sair 2kenon per exp
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I do think it's possible for protoss to use dark archons, and I do think they should... I think this argument is pretty weak though. There's no comparing science vessels irradiating defilers to mutas sniping templar. Science vessels are slower. They can generally be in much less places of the map - you have a much better chance of knowing where they are. That's because if the terran doesn't want to lose them, they have to be near the globs of marines. Mutas can easily be anywhere on the map, because they don't really fear anything or can run from it (they're fast). So mutas will come in from behind, from the sides, etc to snipe templar. having templar behind your army, or really distinctly on any side of your army gets them killed. Having defilers far back, actually helps them a lot, without mentioning that even when a defiler gets irradiated, they have a good amount of time to do their job.
And I don't know about it being hard to templar snipe 'while macroing'. They really don't have to snipe 'while macroing'. They can build from their hatcheries, and then have plenty of time go sniping before they have 3 larva again. Again, you even brought it up yourself: no comparison with having to be ready to do something all the time.
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I do think it's possible for protoss to use dark archons, and I do think they should... I think this argument is pretty weak though. There's no comparing science vessels irradiating defilers to mutas sniping templar. Science vessels are slower. They can generally be in much less places of the map - you have a much better chance of knowing where they are. That's because if the terran doesn't want to lose them, they have to be near the globs of marines. Mutas can easily be anywhere on the map, because they don't really fear anything or can run from it (they're fast). So mutas will come in from behind, from the sides, etc to snipe templar. having templar behind your army, or really distinctly on any side of your army gets them killed. Having defilers far back, actually helps them a lot, without mentioning that even when a defiler gets irradiated, they have a good amount of time to do their job.
And I don't know about it being hard to templar snipe 'while macroing'. They really don't have to snipe 'while macroing'. They can build from their hatcheries, and then have plenty of time go sniping before they have 3 larva again. Again, you even brought it up yourself: no comparison with having to be ready to do something all the time.
But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time.
A certain game in the MST last night involved Dark Archons, and they weren't an effective counter to the mutalisks because the player only made 1 and it couldn't cover both his expos and temps -it was sort of a guessing game. Also, it was difficult for him to kill maelstrom'd mutas after losing his sairs. 3-4 dark archons and 3 - 4 sairs are probably what's necessary to stop it reliably.
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I do think it's possible for protoss to use dark archons, and I do think they should... I think this argument is pretty weak though. There's no comparing science vessels irradiating defilers to mutas sniping templar. Science vessels are slower. They can generally be in much less places of the map - you have a much better chance of knowing where they are. That's because if the terran doesn't want to lose them, they have to be near the globs of marines. Mutas can easily be anywhere on the map, because they don't really fear anything or can run from it (they're fast). So mutas will come in from behind, from the sides, etc to snipe templar. having templar behind your army, or really distinctly on any side of your army gets them killed. Having defilers far back, actually helps them a lot, without mentioning that even when a defiler gets irradiated, they have a good amount of time to do their job.
And I don't know about it being hard to templar snipe 'while macroing'. They really don't have to snipe 'while macroing'. They can build from their hatcheries, and then have plenty of time go sniping before they have 3 larva again. Again, you even brought it up yourself: no comparison with having to be ready to do something all the time.
But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time.
Comparing microing mutas to microing HTs is a pretty bad comparison.
1. Mutas can fly, HTs cannot 2. Mutas are pretty quick, HTs are not 3. Mutas do not have to worry about bumping into/being blocked by other units, HTs do 4. Mutas take a while to take down, HTs do not 5. Mutas have been "specialized" as a special sniping group, HTs have to stick with a clump of units. Microing mutas is not equivalent to microing HTs, no matter how much you try to argue that point.
Just trying to show that it's stupid to believe that microing HTs is as easy as microing mutas and that Protoss players should be able to do it just as easily. Not saying that it's impossible to do it, just that it's not possible to the extent of muta micro.
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I do think it's possible for protoss to use dark archons, and I do think they should... I think this argument is pretty weak though. There's no comparing science vessels irradiating defilers to mutas sniping templar. Science vessels are slower. They can generally be in much less places of the map - you have a much better chance of knowing where they are. That's because if the terran doesn't want to lose them, they have to be near the globs of marines. Mutas can easily be anywhere on the map, because they don't really fear anything or can run from it (they're fast). So mutas will come in from behind, from the sides, etc to snipe templar. having templar behind your army, or really distinctly on any side of your army gets them killed. Having defilers far back, actually helps them a lot, without mentioning that even when a defiler gets irradiated, they have a good amount of time to do their job.
And I don't know about it being hard to templar snipe 'while macroing'. They really don't have to snipe 'while macroing'. They can build from their hatcheries, and then have plenty of time go sniping before they have 3 larva again. Again, you even brought it up yourself: no comparison with having to be ready to do something all the time.
But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time.
Comparing microing mutas to microing HTs is a pretty bad comparison.
1. Mutas can fly, HTs cannot 2. Mutas are pretty quick, HTs are not 3. Mutas do not have to worry about bumping into/being blocked by other units, HTs do 4. Mutas take a while to take down, HTs do not 5. Mutas have been "specialized" as a special sniping group, HTs have to stick with a clump of units. Microing mutas is not equivalent to microing HTs, no matter how much you try to argue that point.
Just trying to show that it's stupid to believe that microing HTs is as easy as microing mutas and that Protoss players should be able to do it just as easily. Not saying that it's impossible to do it, just that it's not possible to the extent of muta micro.
you really didnt understand his point...
people argue that is hard to control the Dark Archor (not the HT) and he answers that if zerg can manage to harass with muta and macro with out so much troubles then a protoss should be able to maelstrom/storm some units without so much trouble, which is logically correct but as players havent use DA then it is difficult until you get used to it.
If only Violet's templars had energy/ an archon was close, but great example of how DAs can be used. If you watch a minute further, you will also see a large group of hydras maelstromed, helping to save his expo.
what a game! not sure which side of the argument it supports! some for and some against perhaps... this reminds me of the zero>queens thing... i think violet has been lurking here..
On October 25 2009 05:40 Nevuk wrote: A certain game in the MST last night involved Dark Archons, and they weren't an effective counter to the mutalisks because the player only made 1 and it couldn't cover both his expos and temps -it was sort of a guessing game. Also, it was difficult for him to kill maelstrom'd mutas after losing his sairs. 3-4 dark archons and 3 - 4 sairs are probably what's necessary to stop it reliably.
To be fair, the timing of the DAs in that game was before temps. So he didn't have storm when the mutas came. Then again, it seemed like Storm was REALLY late. So maybe he forgot to upgrade it.
But the zerg player definitely still took advantage of the fact that mutas can simply dodge the DA and attack elsewhere instead. There's still definitely the mobility difference. But personally, I thought the DA definitely worked pretty well.
On October 25 2009 13:25 lac29 wrote: Hiding HT in shuttles would be kinda cool, then unload for storms when mutas are mael'd.
or get sniped by scourge as everybody is telling you guys it will go... a shuttle without corsairs is dead to scourge and if you have 2-4 Hts in there is a huge loss in a PvZ...
You think it is easy for zerg to fly around doing muta micro while macroing from three bases? This is something zerg have been doing and practising for many years and therefore have perfected it. So I really think protoss should be able to learn to control ONE unit that has a target spell of 10 range.
And now some of you probably argue, "well zerg can just decide when to attack with muta's but toss have to be aware at all time". Well, while this might be true, look at ZvT matchup. Here the zerg muta micros nearly all game while macroing often from three bases. So it is certainly possible. Another thing zerg is capable of is being aware of science vessels which can just fly in and snipe defilers etc.
So basically zerg have always had weak units that could be sniped, but has learned to deal with it by having crazy apm, reaction time and awareness. Why should protoss not be able to do this? Only two arguments:
Either they are just less good (which I really don't think) OR they just have to play 1000 games with e.g. DA's and then they will master them.
I do think it's possible for protoss to use dark archons, and I do think they should... I think this argument is pretty weak though. There's no comparing science vessels irradiating defilers to mutas sniping templar. Science vessels are slower. They can generally be in much less places of the map - you have a much better chance of knowing where they are. That's because if the terran doesn't want to lose them, they have to be near the globs of marines. Mutas can easily be anywhere on the map, because they don't really fear anything or can run from it (they're fast). So mutas will come in from behind, from the sides, etc to snipe templar. having templar behind your army, or really distinctly on any side of your army gets them killed. Having defilers far back, actually helps them a lot, without mentioning that even when a defiler gets irradiated, they have a good amount of time to do their job.
And I don't know about it being hard to templar snipe 'while macroing'. They really don't have to snipe 'while macroing'. They can build from their hatcheries, and then have plenty of time go sniping before they have 3 larva again. Again, you even brought it up yourself: no comparison with having to be ready to do something all the time.
But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time.
Comparing microing mutas to microing HTs is a pretty bad comparison.
1. Mutas can fly, HTs cannot 2. Mutas are pretty quick, HTs are not 3. Mutas do not have to worry about bumping into/being blocked by other units, HTs do 4. Mutas take a while to take down, HTs do not 5. Mutas have been "specialized" as a special sniping group, HTs have to stick with a clump of units. Microing mutas is not equivalent to microing HTs, no matter how much you try to argue that point.
Just trying to show that it's stupid to believe that microing HTs is as easy as microing mutas and that Protoss players should be able to do it just as easily. Not saying that it's impossible to do it, just that it's not possible to the extent of muta micro.
you really didnt understand his point...
people argue that is hard to control the Dark Archor (not the HT) and he answers that if zerg can manage to harass with muta and macro with out so much troubles then a protoss should be able to maelstrom/storm some units without so much trouble, which is logically correct but as players havent use DA then it is difficult until you get used to it.
But you just disregard my argument of making muta herassment for the most of a game against a terran, where one slipup will cost you the game. Zergs can do this so toss' should be able to micro one unit, even though they have to be aware all the time.
Again, zergs may harass terrans with mutas for a large part of the game, but they don't generally 'slip-up' when they are paying attention.. they slip-up because they're paying attention to something else.. your whole 'even though they have to be aware all the time' is a really big if. Like saying 1 marine counters a lurker even though they have to dodge spines.
On October 25 2009 12:36 iamtt1 wrote: i tried going da vs mondragon in a cw... lets just say it didnt go too well
It would help us more if you at least told us the reason why you lost.
didnt get 100 energy in time on my da to maelstorm so i was stuck with 1 arch and my cannons.. which were totally useless against the mut micro harass
You are not doing it right, or thinking about it right. The dark archon is not to stop muta harrass at either of your bases, main or expo. Let alone it does not affect your amount of cannons, resources used on templar, or anything else.
You still keep up corsair production as needed to stop mutas, and still keep a templar back with a few cannons at your base vs a mutabackstab.
Building the DA did not kill you in your game from how you described it, and if you did, then you're missing the point of why you're building it. The maelstrom is NOT for stopping harrass on your bases. You simply died as you would have had you not built the DA either way vs mondragon.
Let alone, it's a practiced timing, not something you get after a few games. Terrans did not learn vessel usage in tvp after a few games, it took a bit to start using them, same for defilers pre-savior.
it takes practice, did everyone see the maelstrom kal did in that pvz somoene linked in this thread? He maelstromed his own damn zealots in front of lurkers LOL.
That's because of horrible decision making on his part to warrant 100 energy there to stop 1 lurker from burrowing. Just as artosis has described, as well as others about korean progamers, they do act like fucking robots a lot of the time, it's usually others that innovate stuff, or the original group of progamer minds like oov, boxer, and such that think something up.
korean progamers are NOT good when it comes to things outside the box or unusual game scenarios, let alone when something new is introduced adapting on the fly. that horrible kal maelstrom was an example of a wasted maelstrom and a bad decision of when to use it because he hasn't used the unit enough.
As far as i get the discussion between Infernal and spinesheath, there is only one question that need to be answered to decide which counter u want to play, more sairs, or DA.
Its the question if u intended to go Bisu style anyway, means building 2 dts for harrass or not. If u are going to build the dts anyway, the DA costs u 100/100 which is even less then 1 sair. Means u can have 1 DA with mael, 1 extra probe and 4 corsairs at the same costs of the 5 Corsairs Infernal suggested. In that case the DA build is far superior since u can leave ur 4 sairs in ur base to defend muta harrass while the DA protects ur HTs from sniping. And 4 sairs + 3 cans @ each nex should be enough to defend any kind of muta harrass. If not, i doubt that 5 sairs would do.
If u didnt go for dts however, the thing looks different. In that case the cost for the DA would be 350/300 which is nearly the cost of 3 corsairs. This means u will have the DA and 2 Corsairs compared to 5 Corsairs in Infernals solution. 2 Corsairs wouldnt help much against muta harrass means u will have to stay @ home with ur army or to invest in extra cannons. In both cases a disadvantage compared to the 5 sair solution.
On October 27 2009 20:32 fc wrote: As far as i get the discussion between Infernal and spinesheath, there is only one question that need to be answered to decide which counter u want to play, more sairs, or DA.
Its the question if u intended to go Bisu style anyway, means building 2 dts for harrass or not. If u are going to build the dts anyway, the DA costs u 100/100 which is even less then 1 sair. Means u can have 1 DA with mael, 1 extra probe and 4 corsairs at the same costs of the 5 Corsairs Infernal suggested. In that case the DA build is far superior since u can leave ur 4 sairs in ur base to defend muta harrass while the DA protects ur HTs from sniping. And 4 sairs + 3 cans @ each nex should be enough to defend any kind of muta harrass. If not, i doubt that 5 sairs would do.
If u didnt go for dts however, the thing looks different. In that case the cost for the DA would be 350/300 which is nearly the cost of 3 corsairs. This means u will have the DA and 2 Corsairs compared to 5 Corsairs in Infernals solution. 2 Corsairs wouldnt help much against muta harrass means u will have to stay @ home with ur army or to invest in extra cannons. In both cases a disadvantage compared to the 5 sair solution.
I wouldn't necessarily call it a disadvantage compared to corsairs. Sure the DA is more expensive if you don't get early DTs anyways, but to compensate for it, your army is stronger than it would be if you had made many corsairs (since a DA adds at least a bit to your army strength in any case, sairs only against mutas). I can't say it is better, either, but I don't think we can clearly say which is superior yet. I've seen some muta backstabs even with 5 corsairs around lately, and often progamers can only control either their army or their corsairs (either the corsairs idle somewhere or get slaughtered by a group of hydras while the toss controls his army. A DA would at least be in the same location than your army, which obviously makes it easier to keep it under control.
But whats the point of having a stronger army if u are forced to stay at home because of the muta threat. I think thats the point of Infernals argumentation. With just 2 sairs u cant defend ur base against mutas. Means u have to spend extra ressources to do that. And in this case i think the sair build has got a decent advantage because of the better mobility. Though the DA is ofc still playable. Build some extra cans and roll over the zergs 3rd and it has done more then just pay off. And with the money in, more or less, useless mutas and the DA in ur army the zerg will hardly be able to stop u.
At first you secure your 3rd base. You should be able to defend anything from that position, even without 5 corsairs. From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you.
If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas.
Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong.
On October 28 2009 00:32 spinesheath wrote: At first you secure your 3rd base. You should be able to defend anything from that position, even without 5 corsairs. From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you.
If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas.
Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong.
Actually 5 corsairs are pretty damn invulnerable to scourge assuming the sairs have +1 and are shooting them immediately.
On October 28 2009 00:32 spinesheath wrote: At first you secure your 3rd base. You should be able to defend anything from that position, even without 5 corsairs. From there on, you will either take a defensive position that protects all your bases - you can do that because you can match the zerg's army because you haven't lost your HTs. Or you will go on the offensive, which is one of the best defences. Since we assume that your army is about as strong as the zerg army if the zerg didn't spend money on mutas (if it isn't you better would be in a defensive position), we can assume that it is significantly stronger that a zerg army with 12-15 less hydralisks (roughly the cost of 9-11 mutas). Thus you should be able to do at least as much damage to the zerg as his backstab does to you.
If the game progesses you can always add corsairs to defend against mutas.
Also don't forget: If you make 5 corsairs and the zerg sees this, he can simply add scourge. 5 corsairs + 1-2 cannons still have a hard time dealing with 9-11 mutas + 4-6 scourge. 5 corsairs don't suddenly make you invulnerable. 5 corsairs + storms + goons or archs might make HT sniping ineffective, but 5 corsairs on their own are barely as strong.
Actually 5 corsairs are pretty damn invulnerable to scourge assuming the sairs have +1 and are shooting them immediately.
+1 was never part of the 5 corsair plan, that's another 100/100, and no zerg tries a backstab with scourge only - kinda pointless. So the mutas will soak up the first hits, and from there the corsairs are in danger.
On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote: It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany
I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind. So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote: It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany
I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind. So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
Although they are still arguably much more effective than DA at the same time. They aren't equivalent, imo at least. For example, Corsairs greatly hinder Zerg's ability to place OL's all over hte map for scouting. THere's much more but I'm in class atm. Of course the DA has its own uses as seen with the maelstrom of other units as well, but Sairs also provide constant scouting as well as forcing Zerg to constantly build scourge, using up larvae and costs gas.
they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around.
they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around.
No you'll definitely be getting constant scouting, they are only crucial defending while pushing. "Buildng no DA" does not devote the sairs completely to defending vs mutas, as seen nearly the past year, when no one was buildnig DA. Yes you use them to still defend in your main, but when you play with sairs, you get scouting, it's that simple.
What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
they wont be able to scout when they have to protect the main + nat eco AND the hts in the army. Building no DA devotes the sairs completly do defending against mutas so they wont be able to do anything else as long as mutas are around.
No you'll definitely be getting constant scouting, they are only crucial defending while pushing. "Buildng no DA" does not devote the sairs completely to defending vs mutas, as seen nearly the past year, when no one was buildnig DA. Yes you use them to still defend in your main, but when you play with sairs, you get scouting, it's that simple.
On October 28 2009 09:37 avilo wrote: +1 is good period on sairs, perhaps toss just need to suck it up and get it most games anyways
I'm sure Stork got it just recently in that game where he had about 80 billion corsairs
yup he did..
Gorush also got +3 carapace which made them TERRIBLE at killing overlords... he still managed nonetheless but those lords lasted forever.
Eh, he still killed them fast due to splash. Plus, Stork's plan was to transition to a ground army. Hence no FB and no further upgrade. Gorush actually got screwed because he anticipated carrier transition(hence greater spire and +3 carapace) and just got plain pwned by Stork's ground army.
So the moral of the story is? Go for gazillion corsairs so you never have to worry about the mutas.
I think that the usage of DA has very little room for error. You either make a good maelstrom or non. Hence I sadly feel that corsair is still the way because its much more useful. Scouting, OL, scourge and muta killing.
On October 28 2009 12:51 lavion wrote: Just asking but has Stork ever used DA in his pvz games?
He used them against GGPlay on Andro but that was one of the worst and most overrated games ever.
Blasphemy! It is not overrated at all, it is one of the most epic games ever.
meh... the game was slow paced... and stork losing so much reavers didnt make it appealing either... (¬¬)
zerg attempting a drop against a toss that is going mass corsair was not funny and in overall it was just a normal PvZ with extended playing time... there are other games that we can consider Epic and this one is not one of them...
On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
That's if and only if you do the following: -Ignore +1 upgrade -Ignore Cosair Tech -Rush Templar Archives -Skip extra cannons for faster gateways
3 Hatch muta comes typically when you have 2 corsair out. There's no way you will have a DA ready for maelstrom at this time without the other four things to occur. (which is incredibly risky)
On October 28 2009 12:06 kirbyraeg wrote: What about using a DA in a stargate-less +1zeal rush build?
Could it work, is it too stupid to think about, etc.
The only reason I even think this would work at all is that it seems like most zergs will choose to go muta and sim-city up their nat instead of lurkers if they see/suspect a +1 zeal rush. However, if you had a DA and an archon or two to pick off the maelstromed mutas it would perfectly predict and destroy their counter to your build. And it could still help vs a 5hatch hydra because the attack timing would be faster if you got a second gas faster, even while researching maelstrom and waiting for 100 energy (as long as the dts are built ASAP and fused immediately).
That's if you opponent is going 5 hatch hydra. If he goes for 3 hatch mutas, you will be dead because the corsair is absolutely key.
actually if you are playing defensive as you will be you will get DA with energy just in time to maelstrom any group of harassing mutas and leave them vulnerable to the cannons (which of course you will do in gratuitous amounts... right?)
The main problem with this is that your natural expansion is going to be a bit late if he is good at stopping it, not to mention that your 3rd is going to be ultra late when he switches to hydras...
So this is a very defensive play and I guess puts protoss in a worse position than going for the usual 3-4 corsairs which keep the hydras at home for little longer so you can get a decent amount of units...
That's if and only if you do the following: -Ignore +1 upgrade -Ignore Cosair Tech -Rush Templar Archives -Skip extra cannons for faster gateways
3 Hatch muta comes typically when you have 2 corsair out. There's no way you will have a DA ready for maelstrom at this time without the other four things to occur. (which is incredibly risky)
I was answering to the guy that talked about 2gate no Stargate build... so according to him you are basically dropping the corsairs to go DA or delaying it by much, which I personally dont think is the best option since as I mention puts you in a very defensive position... I tried the build and I won the game but I found myself in a predicament: You have to strike hard and fast before your first expo or else you will have a hell of a time trying to expand the first AND the second time....
the OP was about using the existing FE > Corsair > Archives build without modifying it, so we are saying that you *should* have 1-2 corsairs for scouting and harassing a bit, but you dont have to critical mass them since you have a DA for that purpose, which sounds nice in paper but we have yet to see it in action.
On October 28 2009 04:33 FabledIntegral wrote: It's pointless not to get +1 if you're planning on making 5 corsairs.
PS. On a more happy note, happy birthday.
Thanks, though it's still ~160 minutes until my birthday here in Germany
I personally would get +1 and at least 6 corsairs if I would try to do anything but scouting and support with them. But that obviously is by far more expensive than a DA, you could get 2 DAs instead, basically, and keep one at home for defense. Or whatever else comes to your mind. So you can't compare a 1 DA build with a 5 corsair with +1 build unless you take the higher price for the corsairs into account.
Although they are still arguably much more effective than DA at the same time. They aren't equivalent, imo at least. For example, Corsairs greatly hinder Zerg's ability to place OL's all over hte map for scouting. THere's much more but I'm in class atm. Of course the DA has its own uses as seen with the maelstrom of other units as well, but Sairs also provide constant scouting as well as forcing Zerg to constantly build scourge, using up larvae and costs gas.
You still have a few corsairs, so you still have scouting and you can deal with overlords scouting in the proximity of your base. If you want to be able to do that even with muta/scourge around, you will need to spend a LOT of money on corsairs. That results in a very defensive/harrassment oriented build, which we mostly see on maps with a safe 3rd and good harrassment options like outsider. You simply can't muster the units to beat a 5+ hatch hydra/lurk/ling army in the open field if you spend so much money on corsairs.
I definitely don't agree that corsairs are more effective than DAs. They work completely differently, and using those units effectively requires two completely different gameplans. Obviously corsairs are better if you focus on air superiority and harrassment, but DAs are certainly better if you try match the zerg's army before your 3rd kicks in.
So you're saying you still already have a few corsairs? So building 3 more isn't exactly much. Out of curiosity, are you forgoing the templar energy upgrade in order to tech maelstrom in time? Templar energy is absolutely critical in ensuring your templars have enough energy.
Every game I've seen with DA now the mutas have just danced around them. Even if the mutas get maelstromed, they either have managed to take out a few templar before dying or they don't even get stormed because templar aren't near. Mutas will be much more effective harassing your base as a result without corsairs. The DA really only feels to be strong when you actually push out, which Sairs can accomplish the same thing really. DA just feel so situational, although I feel that many progamers are currently testing them out (although with terrible results) so we'll be able to see how it turns out soon.
lol @ that maelstrom, horrible maelstrom. Apparently, progamers do not have the common sense to realize you do not have to 100% insta-shove your maelstrom the second you see the muta group (talking about first maelstrom of the game where he maelstroms mutas where archons will not be able to reach...)
On October 31 2009 10:02 avilo wrote: lol @ that maelstrom, horrible maelstrom. Apparently, progamers do not have the common sense to realize you do not have to 100% insta-shove your maelstrom the second you see the muta group (talking about first maelstrom of the game where he maelstroms mutas where archons will not be able to reach...)
Pretty much.
Even exposing the DA if you can't get a good one off right away may be a good idea. Just knowing that you have it may help prevent harrass for fear of losing the mutas.
Then again, they know you got one so you have less of a ground army to attack with. ALthough a good maelstrom should be able to counter...
Showing the Zerg that you have a Dark Archon sounds like it can only be to your disadvantage, unless you don't actually have mana for maelstrom and are just trying to scare his mutas away. (Which would be a HILARIOUS prevention technique for templar sniping, incidentally.) If you have the ability to eat his mutalisk if they come near, you want them to come near. Then he won't have any mutalisk.
Yeah, I think trying to hide the DA as much as you can until you use maelstrom is good. The chance of surprising and killing 9+ mutas is too good an opportunity to squander by trying to 'scare away' muta harass by intentionally showing your DA to your opponent.
The DA is a trap. Traps work when they are correctly sprung. It's hard to keep your giant red ball hidden, but don't go intentionally showing it needlessly.
On October 29 2009 07:35 FabledIntegral wrote: So you're saying you still already have a few corsairs? So building 3 more isn't exactly much. Out of curiosity, are you forgoing the templar energy upgrade in order to tech maelstrom in time? Templar energy is absolutely critical in ensuring your templars have enough energy.
Every game I've seen with DA now the mutas have just danced around them. Even if the mutas get maelstromed, they either have managed to take out a few templar before dying or they don't even get stormed because templar aren't near. Mutas will be much more effective harassing your base as a result without corsairs. The DA really only feels to be strong when you actually push out, which Sairs can accomplish the same thing really. DA just feel so situational, although I feel that many progamers are currently testing them out (although with terrible results) so we'll be able to see how it turns out soon.
3 corsairs cost MORE than 2 DTs and the maelstrom research. Has been said a thousand times.
Yes you are possibly skipping the HT energy upgrade, depending on the timing of the DA. But since your HTs have more storms ready because they didn't storm mutas and didn't die, that shouldn't be such a big impact. You are getting energy right afterwards, and maelstrom is a fast research.
you know it takes so many conditions for DA to work.
you have to actually hit a good one so that they all get caught and you better be able to kill them or else they'll just fly away while you just wasted tons.
On November 10 2009 17:33 Rucky wrote: you know it takes so many conditions for DA to work.
you have to actually hit a good one so that they all get caught and you better be able to kill them or else they'll just fly away while you just wasted tons.
If you hit one muta, you'll hit them all. Assuming the mutas are stacked. If they are not, they are unlikely to succeed at HT sniping. Also, since it's about protecting HTs, you'll have HTs there. Kinda obvious. If you go for the DA timing I suggest, storm will be ready, and if you don't have units to finish off the last few HP the mutas have, you'll have another storm.
Obviously it takes a bit of practice, but from what I see in progames, controlling sairs and an army at the same time seems to be much more demanding than only controlling an army that has DA support (taking into account that people aren't used to DAs, but use sairs in almost every single pvz). Also, HT sniping effectively isn't very easy either. Zergs managed to learn it, so I am confident that protosses are able to learn how to use a DA effectively.
for those who wanted pro-gamers poking in to that, you just got a grasp of what we are talking about... Those two maelstroms were game deciding... proving that, DA > Corsair against templar sniping, AND DA > Corsair in middle game battle such as killing hydras to kick zergs ass...
I just loved how after the first maelstrom the game went down hill for zerg who couldnt stop getting stormed over and over... it was like those templars had infinite energy. :D
Now I do agree that DA cant be on time for 3hatch mutas, and that it will take a time to get used to it, but I am positive that this will be the new trend against 3hatch muta > 5hatch hydra style, is just too powerful if correctly executed.
I guess zergs will now try to find a way to bust protoss BEFORE the DA has enough energy, so I guess there will be much more early aggression from zergs part from now on.
its still very execution heavy, but most strategies do depend heavily on your execution.
In this case, Violet gave up the third which let Hyuk know that protoss is massing one massive mid game army. The natural reaction to this would be to go and try to snipe the templars which delay's the tosses push, which gives a massive advantage to the zerg who's economy is just about to kick in.
Im sure violet knew this and was paying extra careful attention to try and land the maelstorm in that time frame.
He didn't give up his third at all. He was planning to take it while moving out with the DA supported army. That's a bit later than some other builds but imo much safer. If you follow the VOD closely, he has mined out his backdoor and sent a probe to his third just as he moves out with that big army. And even though he immediatley won the game when he killed all the mutas, he still was building his third and some cannons (check out the minimap). Before actually approaching the zerg he killed off the zerglings at his third and checked the top path to make sure he can get that base up safely. I am pretty sure he wasn't expecting to simply win the game there.
I think that even though it is clear that DA > Corsair for pushing instead of harassing each unit have its place and mixing DA in to the group makes something little bit more hard... like Scouting.
And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles...
You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass.
On November 11 2009 05:04 RaptorX wrote: I think that even though it is clear that DA > Corsair for pushing instead of harassing each unit have its place and mixing DA in to the group makes something little bit more hard... like Scouting.
And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles...
You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass.
everything else in pvz balances on the razors edge why not DA management too
On November 11 2009 05:04 RaptorX wrote: I think that even though it is clear that DA > Corsair for pushing instead of harassing each unit have its place and mixing DA in to the group makes something little bit more hard... like Scouting.
And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles...
You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass.
everything else in pvz balances on the razors edge why not DA management too
Because muta harass is earlier and harder than any harass a toss can do on early-mid game...
also killing 1 base of the zerg doesnt insta-kill him, which means even though zerg has more to do he is in a better position 60% of the time, you cannot say the same of a protoss who just lost his nat...
Toss has to be on his toes (no pun intended) all the time.
Note that im not saying that DA's is going to give more things to do to the Toss since I already said that maelstrom is like storm and even faster so there is nothing new on that and is not so "apm intensive" as some claim it would be. What I am saying is that Toss will have something else to worry about, namely: mutas avoiding your main attack to go and harass somewhere else, and that means protoss MUST have good scouting skills, and not everybody has the multitasking required for that.
Me for example, I am just a D+ Toss who doesnt have the experience and speed to deal with so many things at the same time. It IS difficult to know what zerg is doing, and then you have to add the fact that you have to spot his mutas to kill them off... So people with more experience might find that easy to do, but it gives more to worry about anyways, and that is my point.
Queens can do the same thins as muta and faster/easier.
4 queens with broodling cant pick off 4 HT easy in the same time frame and avoide the risk of mealstrom. if timed right you cold spread and broodling the HT and risk at the most 1 queen dying to feedback before it gets off its broodling.
just killing 3 HT is enough for zerg to win the mid push.
On November 11 2009 06:10 metaldragon wrote: Queens can do the same thins as muta and faster/easier.
4 queens with broodling cant pick off 4 HT easy in the same time frame and avoide the risk of mealstrom. if timed right you cold spread and broodling the HT and risk at the most 1 queen dying to feedback before it gets off its broodling.
just killing 3 HT is enough for zerg to win the mid push.
Feedback has a longer range and uses half the energy of a maelstrom? If the zerg makes 9 or so queens, their push must come much later and they won't be able to do the sniping twice.
It takes 150 energy to cast Spawn Broodlings, as well as the research, so the sniping would be slower. You also would either have to forgo the spire and not have any scourge out to deal with the corsairs, or you would have to add another tech building into your early game which means a smaller army. If you opt for the nest instead of a spire, you won't have any real harassment, will lose too many Overlords, and your tech will be spotted and the Protoss will counter it anyways. In either case, if the Protoss go for a push like Violets your Queens will no have the energy to snipe the Templar in time.
On November 11 2009 05:04 RaptorX wrote: I think that even though it is clear that DA > Corsair for pushing instead of harassing each unit have its place and mixing DA in to the group makes something little bit more hard... like Scouting.
And when you see the VOD 3-4 times like i did you can see that Violet is checking EVERYWHERE looking for those mutas... which means, if the zerg manages to keep mutas out of your sight you can get in troubles...
You can see how violet sacrifices 2 sairs in search of the mutas and was not pushing out until he catch them, notice that that DA was never alone and by alone I mean it was always with minimum 2 HTs, so if you forget about those little details your life can become a pain in the ass.
everything else in pvz balances on the razors edge why not DA management too
Because muta harass is earlier and harder than any harass a toss can do on early-mid game...
also killing 1 base of the zerg doesnt insta-kill him, which means even though zerg has more to do he is in a better position 60% of the time, you cannot say the same of a protoss who just lost his nat...
Toss has to be on his toes (no pun intended) all the time.
Note that im not saying that DA's is going to give more things to do to the Toss since I already said that maelstrom is like storm and even faster so there is nothing new on that and is not so "apm intensive" as some claim it would be. What I am saying is that Toss will have something else to worry about, namely: mutas avoiding your main attack to go and harass somewhere else, and that means protoss MUST have good scouting skills, and not everybody has the multitasking required for that.
Me for example, I am just a D+ Toss who doesnt have the experience and speed to deal with so many things at the same time. It IS difficult to know what zerg is doing, and then you have to add the fact that you have to spot his mutas to kill them off... So people with more experience might find that easy to do, but it gives more to worry about anyways, and that is my point.
If you are building corsairs to protect your HTs, you will have to keep those corsairs close to your HTs, obviously. So a muta backstab can still deal a lot of damage especially since you'll usually have less cannons than you would have if you opted for DA. And if you retreat your corsairs once the zerg threatens your nat/main, and don't realize that he already has decided to snipe HTs instead, you'll be in trouble too. So, even with corsairs you'll need good scouting.
Now, the interesting thing is: Your DA is with your army, so your HTs are certainly safe as long as you are able to use the DA properly. So you can use your corsairs freely for whatever you want to do. I don't know why Violet scouted so aggressively. What could he have scouted? a 4th base? Not in the zerg's nat/main. Mutas? He is save from those if he keeps his sairs at home, since he was also warping additional cannons. Hive tech? Well maybe. That could have triggered an direct attack to deal the damage before hive is done. He knew that there were plenty of hydras and a bunch of lurk/ling. Mass muta? Unlikely, and he wasnt scouting very effectively if he was using for those. Drop? His scouting pattern did't seem like he was looking for one. So imo there is very little a zerg could do at this point that would require the toss to change his gameplan. It's nice to know where the mutas are so that you can intercept them, but it's not necessary for protecting your HTs because you have an additional sight range provided by your zealots/goons, and if your corsairs (he had 4 or 5 at that time) are used defensively and for scouting the proximity of your bases, you should be save from most muta backstabs.
RaptorX, stop saying this "proves" it. It was one match. It doesn't "prove" anything. I was never one of the people against hte DA int he first place, but nothing is more annoying then seeing a strategy used effectively in ONE game and people saying it's now fact. How many games have we seen where DA failed? It by NO means PROVES that DA > sair. Not at all. We've also seen plenty of games where corsairs have succeeded.
The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote: The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable.
I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another.
Even if DA works, I still think upgraded corsairs are BETTER. more cost efficient and works for you the entire game and faster/more mobile and is not as risky and the list goes on. Even if DA works i will still say there are too many conditions for it and everything has to be perfect. Like I was saying about the maelstorm that actually hit, what if zerg gets off the shots and kills the ht before maelstorm lands. Mutas will fly away unharmed.
You guys must have not seen all those maelstorm fail games and have only seen the ones that works.
On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote: The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable.
I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another.
Ok let me put it this way... sairs = 2hatch hydra bust while DA's are 5hatch hydra compared to the actual zerg build (3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra). DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly... and you can save your HT's which will kill massive amounts of hydra/lurk/lings....
Let me clarify something, I am not one of those who jumps in to a winning VOD and say "you see, you see!" but THIS one in particular proves something and thats what i mentioned... it proves that DA > Sair... 'but, but... you can win with sair', yes but they wont freeze a bunch of mutas and get them killed almost instantly, and they wont do ANYTHING against hydras, and they will have to run against muta+scourges... you cant say none of those about the DA... and still the DA is cheaper...
Look, the fact is that this game was won by much because of those 2 maelstroms, without them the game would be WAY longer and more towards zergs favor as it has been the whole season...
They showed some VODs and Replays with DA's winning on them and I did not brag about them at all.... but THIS one is different, because it shows that a DA can flip the weight and thats what this topic is about... listen to the title: "Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ?", and I would say this particular video shows WHY... and that why is that clearly DA > Corsairs in an offensive position, because sairs dont flip the board in your favor, even if you mass them out...
I dont know how cant you see that. Is just that i cant stop thinking about how DA is specifically designed for countering some zerg abilities...
But of course 1 game doesnt mean 'sustained viability' since each player has their weak and strong points, some will not be able to use the DA as skillfully as others.
On November 11 2009 09:55 Gnarly wrote: So the only talk of DA is the timing before Muta sniping of HT, being opened up by FE? And you want to call it a "metagame shift"? Why not design a plethora of builds utilizing the DA? That would be a metagame shift.
To be honest, though, I believe that if this timing works out, where the DA protects the HT, the zerg will just make a new timing, and completely ruin all of this discussion. A queen could not counter this at all due to feedback, more mutas would be stupid, and more hydras would delay the timing, making the DA and HTs more powerful, due to energy collection. This will call for something very different, say a 5 pool rush > 2hat spire > queenlings > whatever you want.
Why a 5pool? It can ruin FE, and all the timings after it. Now you're ahead, make six (this is correct due to 2hat spire, instead of 3hat) mutas and go harass, way before the DA would ever come out. Now switch into queenlings, ensnare and crack attack. Massing zealots wouldn't work too much due to mutas, speedlings and a hurt economy. Goons would be completely retarded due to: no lurkers, lings, ensnare would just really screw things up even more. Teching would be very hard imo, due to early, early rush, and then a quick muta follow up, so worrying about tech units shouldn't really happen. Now where's your DA?
The point I really want to make is, instead of focusing on a timing in one build and calling it a shift, try to make more uses for the DA, not just one, then call it a shift.
I mean the guy can't pioneer the use of the DA in all situations from the get go. And if it became powerful enough, when used correctly, that the zergs would have to have a deliberate strategy/build to counter the DA timing than it would be cemented as a metagame shift. Thats how it works.
Savior style play > older protoss styles Bisu build>>>>> savior play the 3 hatch muta->5 hatch hydra>bisu build These have been shown in the proleague over the past couple seasons.
now maybe adding in correct DA timing>3 hatch muta to 5 hydras? Thats what this thread is about. Of course it will take some time to cement the style and get a flexible solid build down.
And there have been many uses for the DA. As sown in some of the pimpest plays in the past. Its known thats it can be a game changer and can sway the game in favor of the protoss. Its just working it efficiently into protoss play before the lategame is what needs to be done. That game shows that when used correctly it can all but seal the deal in favor of the toss. I just think that the pro players need to play a bunch more games and grind down the DA play and it will truly start shining.
You guys are being silly. The reason starcraft is considered by some as a sport is that DA's can be used to counter mutalisks. Does that mean it's the perfect build? no. Will I be able to beat A+ zergs now that I can make DA's? no. Some people can do it, like Violet. Other people have failed on television before. They probably could get it in practice, but fucking Violet made it look easy. That's why Violet is a professional protoss player.
On November 11 2009 10:12 hku wrote: Will I be able to beat A+ zergs now that I can make DA's? no. Some people can do it, like Violet. Other people have failed on television before. They probably could get it in practice, but fucking Violet made it look easy.
no but very likely you will win/have advantage over zergs in your own level who uses this trendy 3h s > 5h hydra build... if you practice...
but you are right, it looks so easy when somebody else does it. :D
We just need more time to get used to DA. It really is just some time before ALL bw units become viable for certain situation.
If you recall 2-4 years ago people NEVER made science vessels vs protoss but that's before arbitors are used prevalently. And now arbitors are being used, and nobody dare to make the argument (I need gas to upgrade for tanks and to make more tanks) anymore because of arbitors.
Also if you recall 2-4 years ago people didn't use defilers nearly as much as now, but since then they have become the norm.
So give it couple of years, I'm sure DA would be commonly used for mid-game instead of late-game.
On November 11 2009 07:50 RaptorX wrote: The problem is that a lot of people were arguing that: DA's where so expensive, or that your unit count would be lower, or that building 3 more sairs was safer, that there is no way that you would have energy in time, that DAs werent effective against hydras, and so on... this only game proves that all of that is not true...
It is not that he played a noob. If I show you this against a D player I would give you the point, that 1 game dont show nothing relevant, but this is a game between pros, it proves and shows that is viable, and those games that failed can be due to lots of things, not because you merged 2 dts in to DA... this win is SPECIFICALLY because those two maelstroms nothing else, since he saved his HT's from sniping and fried everything that moved so... Yes DA is better against mutas than sairs, for the simple fact that it is instant... you just cant argue with that.
We all know that, what we are looking for is TIMINGS to do it, and I would say that in that VOD you can see a nice timing for it... now is it viable against other builds? other timings?
Read my posts and you will see what I think about DA vs 3hatch mutas...
DA's being too expensive or not, unit count being lower or not, or 3 sairs being safer or not is IRRELEVANT to the point you're saying that it proves a DA is better than sairs. It's one game and there is PLENTY of proof to the contrary where how many people thus far have used DA and failed? I never said it wasn't viable nor did I say you should say it isn't viable. I said don't say it proves that DA are superior, because it is very arguable that it isn't. A 2 hatch hydra bust is "viable" vs a FE toss, but it doesn't mean it's superior to 5 hatch hydra. One game winning doesn't mean anything, and the several games prior to this where people have used DA against mutas they've typically lost. Which according to your logic, it proves that DA AREN'T viable.
I don't care about 3 hatch mutas. I don't care about timings. It's just your inability to comprehend that one strategy working once doesn't prove it's superior than another.
Ok let me put it this way... sairs = 2hatch hydra bust while DA's are 5hatch hydra compared to the actual zerg build (3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra). DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly... and you can save your HT's which will kill massive amounts of hydra/lurk/lings....
Let me clarify something, I am not one of those who jumps in to a winning VOD and say "you see, you see!" but THIS one in particular proves something and thats what i mentioned... it proves that DA > Sair... 'but, but... you can win with sair', yes but they wont freeze a bunch of mutas and get them killed almost instantly, and they wont do ANYTHING against hydras, and they will have to run against muta+scourges... you cant say none of those about the DA... and still the DA is cheaper...
Look, the fact is that this game was won by much because of those 2 maelstroms, without them the game would be WAY longer and more towards zergs favor as it has been the whole season...
They showed some VODs and Replays with DA's winning on them and I did not brag about them at all.... but THIS one is different, because it shows that a DA can flip the weight and thats what this topic is about... listen to the title: "Dark Archon key to next metagame shift in PvZ?", and I would say this particular video shows WHY... and that why is that clearly DA > Corsairs in an offensive position, because sairs dont flip the board in your favor, even if you mass them out...
I dont know how cant you see that. Is just that i cant stop thinking about how DA is specifically designed for countering some zerg abilities...
But of course 1 game doesnt mean 'sustained viability' since each player has their weak and strong points, some will not be able to use the DA as skillfully as others.
You're saying that sair would be the equivalent of 2 hatch hydra bust and DA is 5 hatch hydra? To say that is just simply stupid. You have ONE VOD to support your claims and countless to disprove it. It doesn't prove DA > sair in ANYWAY at all.
First of all, what if it comes out that a toss building DA and a Zerg noticing this and forgoing mutalisks for extra lurkers is actually STRONGER than the current iteration where toss goes Sairs and Zerg goes for mutas? Besides the game vs Kal, which was played absolutely dreadfully, we have nothing to base this off of. So you can't "prove" that DA > sairs.
Second of all, there's no evidence that says the "DA flips the board in your favor," while the exact opposite of massing sairs has evidence that it is a viable standard strategy that is effective. Am I saying it's the best? No. Am I saying it's a standard build? Yes.
The DA isn't "designed" to do shit vs Muta clumps like you're claiming either - no one KNEW about muta clumps until years after broodwar was released.
So stop saying it's been proven, it's bullshit. Maybe DA are better. I don't know. But to say it's been proven is just lying to everyone reading this thread like the entire community now has a general consensus that DA are better solutions than sairs.
you know what, I will stop trying to be right... lets time decide if DAs will be part of the standard PvZ or not... :D
btw nukes are very powerful but you could die in the process of making them since you wont have enough minerals/scans to survive even though I dont mind seeing it more often in TvT on a clump of sieged tanks, while merging 2 dts that you are already building isnt going to kill nobody, except zerg.
Still not addressing the fact that sairs are critical for scouting in the matchup. I think it can also be argued that you lose some degree of map control. Lack of sairs means my ovies will be positioned more appropriately around the map and if the toss ventures out with a DA, I will try to snipe it be it with lings, hydras, whatever.
well if you read the thread you will see that you are not simply skipping the corsairs, you do make 2-3 for scouting, and probably later on you will add some more, you are actually replacing corsairs in defending against HT sniping with a unit which will insta-kill mutas by maelstroming them when they arrive to your main group of units which is what we are talking about... and the DA cant be 'sniped' since it is a unit with a lot of shield, it just dont simply dies of a few hits like the HTs...
The only thing is that it is like the arbiter, it goes ahead of your group if you leave him alone, so you have to be aware that it should be behind or in the middle of your main attack to make sure it doesnt die to hydras, and keeping in mind that its range is of 10 it means you can still maelstrom mutas and hydras from its positioning without risking it. Those are more and more reasons why some of us consider that DA > sairs when it comes to push out with your main attack.
Since sairs take forever to kill your mutas (which means they will snipe your HTs anyways, which is their purpose) and they die to hydras without doing anything productive...
of course sair > DA when it comes to scouting and ovie hunting but those things dont win the game... killing 9+ mutas allowing you to use almost unlimited storm will...
@FabledIntegral
if zerg goes only hydra/lurker or ling/luker will happen to them as happened before this build they are using... they will get totally fried by HT's... actually the current PvZ is revolving around killing protoss HTs (even sacrificing 1000/1000 for it...) so you cannot tell me that if they see the DA and stop doing mutas protoss arent in advantage some how... not to mention that the DA will maelstrom at least 2 packs of hydras who will surely die while protoss just continues to walk forward without losing so many units, compared to when he tries the same without HT's.
And i did not say that DA is specifically designed to counter mutas, i said it is specifically designed to counter some zerg abilities... like the mobility they have over the protoss... so I am wrong in that one too?
The DA is better than corsairs in some cases, and the corsair is better than the DA in some other cases. Any statement like DA > sair without specifying the situation is blatantly wrong. Maybe RaptorX didn't mean DA > sair globally, but then he should have made that clear. Same with the "corsairs more cost efficient" statement. This is purely situational. Significant numbers of corsairs are more expensive than a DA, and force a completely different gameplay. It's pretty much impossible to compare the cost-effctiveness of the two as they (at least partially) serve different purposes.
On November 11 2009 09:55 Gnarly wrote: So the only talk of DA is the timing before Muta sniping of HT, being opened up by FE? And you want to call it a "metagame shift"? Why not design a plethora of builds utilizing the DA? That would be a metagame shift.
To be honest, though, I believe that if this timing works out, where the DA protects the HT, the zerg will just make a new timing, and completely ruin all of this discussion. A queen could not counter this at all due to feedback, more mutas would be stupid, and more hydras would delay the timing, making the DA and HTs more powerful, due to energy collection. This will call for something very different, say a 5 pool rush > 2hat spire > queenlings > whatever you want.
Why a 5pool? It can ruin FE, and all the timings after it. Now you're ahead, make six (this is correct due to 2hat spire, instead of 3hat) mutas and go harass, way before the DA would ever come out. Now switch into queenlings, ensnare and crack attack. Massing zealots wouldn't work too much due to mutas, speedlings and a hurt economy. Goons would be completely retarded due to: no lurkers, lings, ensnare would just really screw things up even more. Teching would be very hard imo, due to early, early rush, and then a quick muta follow up, so worrying about tech units shouldn't really happen. Now where's your DA?
The point I really want to make is, instead of focusing on a timing in one build and calling it a shift, try to make more uses for the DA, not just one, then call it a shift.
We are talking about DA against 5 hatch hydra. If the build you suggest is strong then so be it, but it can clearly be scouted that this build is NOT a 5 hatch hydra. We are NOT trying to make up a 100% guaranteed victory build.
Also, the zerg can't really force a different timing of muta sniping on the protoss unless he tries to snipe the HTs right next to cannons/goons/archons. With a DA build, the toss moves out once his DA has maelstrom and energy, and this is the timing the zerg can effectively snipe. It's up to the protoss to decide when that timing is.
*I read the OP and first page, but this thread is pretty huge, so I haven't read the whole thing obviously*
I think DAs can be used more effectively nowadays.
My choice for getting them would rely on what the zerg does. If they go 3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra I would start getting DAs right there when I see he follows up with 2 more hatches and hydras. If he does 2/3 hatch mutas I would just get sairs and goons with my HT, as I will need AA to move out earlier. If he does 2/3 hatch hydra and/or lurker I will not get as many goons and sairs, and go for more of a zealot/HT/archon based army.
My choice relies on what his unit composition will be like at the point of the game when I will actually have the upgrade for DA + a DA out.
Thus: - 3hatch spire > 5hatch hydra = start getting DA so I will have the energy, DA, and upgrade with my army when he finally manages to get a group of mutas. - 2/3 hatch mutas = more sairs and goons. I will have to move out faster than I would against a 5hatch hydra, so I cant afford the time to wait for DA. sairs and goons will have to do their best to fend off the mutas. - 2/3 hatch hydra and/or lurker = he will not even have mutas, so I will just get zealots + HT + archon, without the need to fend off a group of mutas.
My only concern is whether or not I will know enough in advance whether he is getting mutas with his 3hatch spire or transitioning into 5hatch hydra. Probably going to test that out now.
EDIT: Further thoughts: I don't think there should be a "DA build", or a BO or anything. It's completely situational and you can be giving your opponent and advantage by sticking to the build, regardless of whether or not he made/is even going to make mutas.
On November 11 2009 14:13 Rucky wrote: "DA's are THAT powerful vs zerg since you can maelstrom everything they throw at you... instantly..."
Nukes are very powerful they can kill a lot. Did you see boxer dominate Killer?
The nuke was barely of part of what made Boxer win that game. If you actually look, the nuke doesn't even really kill anything that makes a difference. + Show Spoiler +
Nukes only do 500 damage, or 2/3s of the buildings health, depending on which is greater, but they don't really even shutdown expansions. In that game all the nukes did were force killer to pull drones from mining for ~10-15 seconds. It didn't kill the hatchery. It didn't kill part of killer's army. It didn't kill a line of sunkens. If the ~10-15 seconds of not mining makes up for the cost of the ghost tech and nukes, then sure, you may as well, but it relies on luck and how well the opponent reacts if you actually want to do the damage you think it would be intended to do(I.E. kill his army, kill sunk line, kill lots of drones).
Honestly, I don't think ghosts have much, if any at all, use in TvZ. In TvP, you can still use ghosts to lockdown arbs/cars and EMP before nuking, basically destroying everything in the nukes range.
And I was just stating random facts. Nukes are powerful and they are. Maelstorms are powerful and yes you can mael everything thrown at you. Ultras are beastly yes they are. Lockdowns are awesome you can lockdown everything.
Going DA has never really been a BAD thing, just risky. If it gets scouted, then the odds of acctually getting to use your DA is slim. If you DO manage to make it work, however, then it is a neat strategy. (Not to mention how cool DA's are, and I <3 'em)
As far as endgame PvZ goes however, DA's are almost always a good idea. Maelstorm is so awesome.
I was thinking, would including some DAs in a goon/reaver build increase the effectiveness of the build? As of now the biggest weakness I've seen with goon/reaver has been vulnerability to muta, DA can completely decimate mutas and screw over defilers later. I'm not too familiar with the correct goon/reaver builds as I almost never offrace except to stove people. Is this a viable tech inclusion and is there an inherent weakness in goon/reaver/DA?
On November 11 2009 23:20 Floophead_III wrote: I was thinking, would including some DAs in a goon/reaver build increase the effectiveness of the build? As of now the biggest weakness I've seen with goon/reaver has been vulnerability to muta, DA can completely decimate mutas and screw over defilers later. I'm not too familiar with the correct goon/reaver builds as I almost never offrace except to stove people. Is this a viable tech inclusion and is there an inherent weakness in goon/reaver/DA?
Probably not as decent zergs won't go for mutas but hydras and scourge mainly. That's how I deflect those strategies most of the time.
Not to forget that it doesn't include templar tech (or at least I would guess so, but I don't know very much about that build).
On November 11 2009 23:19 HaXXspetten wrote: Going DA has never really been a BAD thing, just risky. If it gets scouted, then the odds of acctually getting to use your DA is slim. If you DO manage to make it work, however, then it is a neat strategy. (Not to mention how cool DA's are, and I <3 'em)
You are already using the DA by not being able to use it. By stopping the zerg from making mutas you already made sure your HTs are alive, which is the whole point of the DA. You don't kill off mutas worth 1k/1k, so you'll have to deal with stronger zerg forces, but at least not as strong as hydra with mutas, and you'll restrict the zergs options which makes it easier to counter his actions.
On November 11 2009 18:58 Grobyc wrote: The nuke was barely of part of what made Boxer win that game. If you actually look, the nuke doesn't even really kill anything that makes a difference. + Show Spoiler +
Nukes only do 500 damage, or 2/3s of the buildings health, depending on which is greater, but they don't really even shutdown expansions. In that game all the nukes did were force killer to pull drones from mining for ~10-15 seconds. It didn't kill the hatchery. It didn't kill part of killer's army. It didn't kill a line of sunkens. If the ~10-15 seconds of not mining makes up for the cost of the ghost tech and nukes, then sure, you may as well, but it relies on luck and how well the opponent reacts if you actually want to do the damage you think it would be intended to do(I.E. kill his army, kill sunk line, kill lots of drones).
Honestly, I don't think ghosts have much, if any at all, use in TvZ. In TvP, you can still use ghosts to lockdown arbs/cars and EMP before nuking, basically destroying everything in the nukes range.
Sorry for kind of going off topic
I sincerely believe you are wrong in this. I think you are missing the whole point of the nuke. If you take into account that your opponent now has to keep watch for nukes, it has quite the psychological damage potential. Also, Boxer said in his last interview that he believes nukes are very powerful and useful, and it shows in his latest games (and his teammate's games). Bisu also clearly stated, in that same interview, that those nukes were part of Boxer's strategy and not just for show like a lot of people seem think. You can see he went for the covert ops very early on, when the observer spots the science facility lifting off and landing one hex to the left.
And to keep on-topic, it is indeed always nice to see the people who trash talk without decent arguments having to eat their words when someone actually comes out and destroys people with some strategy. This happened right here in this thread, as a lot of you said DA's are not cost efficient, too micro intensive, will disrupt your timings, etc etc, all common rubbish and unthoughtful arguments, the same ones actually used before with the science vessel, arbiters and defilers as said.
DA's will be used a lot from now, and I believe the same will eventually happen with ghosts, queens, etc. If only Boxer played more... He has the power to influence people.
I was thinking of more of a 2 base goon reaver build, I don't whether this has even been attempted or whether you might as well go sair reaver instead.
I've been hoping to see some DA use, so the Violet video is exciting. I think it at least puts to rest that it's not an option because pro-level players aren't using it and it's too hard to maelstrom a muta-clump. I would be cautious to say that this suddenly means the build is going to come into dominance over corsair use. But I think it does show that there is potential for incorporating DA's into the mid-game.
Reaver tech and DA tech are in the opposite directions. If the point is a goon/reaver timing attack, getting both only slows everything down.
The DA user needs to have excellent scouting in order to see the mutas coming. Violet clearly emphasized that he had two observers out looking for the mutas. With the foreknowledge that mutas were coming, he easily maelstrom'ed them. A more careless/scoutless Protoss might actually get his DA sniped by the mutas before he could react or lose a few templars.
If you don't get a maelstrom off before mutas snipe your DA, you are horribad. It takes at least 3 good hits for the mutas, your main focus at that time should be your army, and you'll have a sizeable army which allows you to spot the mutas quite early. Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast.
of course sair > DA when it comes to scouting and ovie hunting but those things dont win the game... killing 9+ mutas allowing you to use almost unlimited storm will...
@FabledIntegral
if zerg goes only hydra/lurker or ling/luker will happen to them as happened before this build they are using... they will get totally fried by HT's... actually the current PvZ is revolving around killing protoss HTs (even sacrificing 1000/1000 for it...) so you cannot tell me that if they see the DA and stop doing mutas protoss arent in advantage some how... not to mention that the DA will maelstrom at least 2 packs of hydras who will surely die while protoss just continues to walk forward without losing so many units, compared to when he tries the same without HT's.
And i did not say that DA is specifically designed to counter mutas, i said it is specifically designed to counter some zerg abilities... like the mobility they have over the protoss... so I am wrong in that one too?
Stop saying that certain things don't win games. All these contribute to winning games. Do you know why one of the MAIN reasons toss used to lose vs Zerg? Lack of map information. Zerg could plant OL's over the map EVERYWHERE and have a maphack. Many corsairs prevent this. 2-3 corsairs do nothing. So in the process you are forfeiting map awareness. You have NO idea how large of a repercussion that is concerning current builds because it hasn't been explored yet. Should it be explored? Yes. Has it been? No, so stop stating as if facts. That's the entire point.
Of course I can tell you if they stop mutas they could formulate another strategy - how dense is that question. You have no idea HOW the game is going to play out differently now that a DA is in the mix. And stop saying that it's in the build anyways, the two DT are NOT in the build that violet used, he did not try to harass with them and then merge them after harassing. He warped them immediately. That is a difference already.
I'm not saying the DA isn't beneficial. It very well might be necessary for Protoss to adapt. But ONE GAME DOESN'T PROVE SHIT. It was vs Hyuk as well, despite being on a hot streak, he is a very questionable player, AND he probably hasn't practiced vs DA much.
You're not addressing the fact either that you're using one game to back your findings and are dismissing several others that portray the opposite.
Lastly, as said you have no idea what could develop. What if going DA and lack of a respectable amount of corsairs with the +1 upgrade means that in fact going LOTS of muta and backstabbing the main is viable with a sunken/lurker defense. Is it? Probably not, but there are so many scenarios that you have to think of. Now that you don't have sairs to defend, you have to build an additional 2 cannons in your main and 1 cannon in your nat, delaying your third expansion, meaning that you're midgame push almost becomes an all-in in the sense that if you don't succeed you're stuck on 2 base....
Probably not viable, it's just so dumb to hear you coming to the conclusion that DA are now PROVEN to be the better strategy than corsairs, and that DA should almost invariably be used over Corsairs.
EDIT: You're also not including things such as the fact without enough sairs shuttles will be more vulnerable to scourge, effectively limiting the potential of storm/dt/reaver drops. Another part of gameplay you've whisked over without addressing (although it had past my mind as well), another reason not to say it's proven DA > sairs.
On November 12 2009 06:10 spinesheath wrote: If you don't get a maelstrom off before mutas snipe your DA, you are horribad. It takes at least 3 good hits for the mutas, your main focus at that time should be your army, and you'll have a sizeable army which allows you to spot the mutas quite early. Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast.
Hydras would snipe DA, not Mutas... haha. Hydras own Archons, who have 350/10, imagine vs Dark Archons, who have 200/25 and have hte nasty tendency to RUNNN up front. Archons only take like 37 hits or so to die and they die super fast to hydras, Dark Archons only take... ~27? Assuming they deal 5 dmg to hp instead of 10, if not, much sooner. As the DA is typically towards the front, you know that hydras could go in for shots (like they normally do even when the templars are alive) and buy time, and mutas wouldn't go rushing in BY THEMSELVES like what Hyuk did.
I'm just coming up wiht scenarios, I love the DA unit (was my fav broodwar unit when I first started playing, but that was for mindcontrol, haha).
dude mind control is for "show" games or for games where u mineral hack lol.
btw, i just have to tell this to u guys: #1 cause of death in USA is ppl getting slapped to death for complaining how their maelstroms dont freeze terran mech armies
On November 12 2009 06:10 spinesheath wrote: If you don't get a maelstrom off before mutas snipe your DA, you are horribad. It takes at least 3 good hits for the mutas, your main focus at that time should be your army, and you'll have a sizeable army which allows you to spot the mutas quite early. Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast.
Hydras would snipe DA, not Mutas... haha. Hydras own Archons, who have 350/10, imagine vs Dark Archons, who have 200/25 and have hte nasty tendency to RUNNN up front. Archons only take like 37 hits or so to die and they die super fast to hydras, Dark Archons only take... ~27? Assuming they deal 5 dmg to hp instead of 10, if not, much sooner. As the DA is typically towards the front, you know that hydras could go in for shots (like they normally do even when the templars are alive) and buy time, and mutas wouldn't go rushing in BY THEMSELVES like what Hyuk did.
I'm just coming up wiht scenarios, I love the DA unit (was my fav broodwar unit when I first started playing, but that was for mindcontrol, haha).
Read the post right above the one you quoted there. Obviously the muta sniping DA thing was a reply to that one.
Did you ever consider the situation in which Hydras can snipe DAs? Yep, right in the midst of a big battle. Either you will have maelstromed the zerg's mutas before that, or he'll be too late to stop you from storming all his hydras, or he attacks with both mutas and hydras at the same time with awesome micro (storm dodging + HT sniping at the same time). If the toss is about the same level as the zerg, he should be able to keep his DA from moving a mile ahead of his main army, and should even be able to maelstrom the mutas anyways. If the zerg engages the toss with his main army and only uses his mutas afterwards, the HTs will already be merging into Archons, so there is very little he would gain from that.
Hydras deal explosive damage, and both Archons and DAs are large units. So it's full damage from hydras on HP.
On November 12 2009 06:10 spinesheath wrote: If you don't get a maelstrom off before mutas snipe your DA, you are horribad. It takes at least 3 good hits for the mutas, your main focus at that time should be your army, and you'll have a sizeable army which allows you to spot the mutas quite early. Check out how quick terrans react to mutas (immediately stimming and engaging), even if the terran has units in the middle and at his base. I am pretty confident that tosses can be similarly fast.
Hydras would snipe DA, not Mutas... haha. Hydras own Archons, who have 350/10, imagine vs Dark Archons, who have 200/25 and have hte nasty tendency to RUNNN up front. Archons only take like 37 hits or so to die and they die super fast to hydras, Dark Archons only take... ~27? Assuming they deal 5 dmg to hp instead of 10, if not, much sooner. As the DA is typically towards the front, you know that hydras could go in for shots (like they normally do even when the templars are alive) and buy time, and mutas wouldn't go rushing in BY THEMSELVES like what Hyuk did.
I'm just coming up wiht scenarios, I love the DA unit (was my fav broodwar unit when I first started playing, but that was for mindcontrol, haha).
Read the post right above the one you quoted there. Obviously the muta sniping DA thing was a reply to that one.
Did you ever consider the situation in which Hydras can snipe DAs? Yep, right in the midst of a big battle. Either you will have maelstromed the zerg's mutas before that, or he'll be too late to stop you from storming all his hydras, or he attacks with both mutas and hydras at the same time with awesome micro (storm dodging + HT sniping at the same time). If the toss is about the same level as the zerg, he should be able to keep his DA from moving a mile ahead of his main army, and should even be able to maelstrom the mutas anyways. If the zerg engages the toss with his main army and only uses his mutas afterwards, the HTs will already be merging into Archons, so there is very little he would gain from that.
Hydras deal explosive damage, and both Archons and DAs are large units. So it's full damage from hydras on HP.
Concerning the DA snipe - my bad then, I just felt it obvious that the sniping in general would be from hydras.
It doesn't have to be in the midst of a big battle, PvZ all the time the hydras go in to hit once then retreat, buying time as the toss pushes across the map. The zeals can't run too far ahead because goons/templars will lag behind, etc. So not at all. He doesn't have to snipe him in all one go, either way I'm talking about the potential of it. HT in the past have been sniped with hydras ALL the time, and they tend to lag BEHIND the army rather than in front like the DA.
There's too much of a preconceived notion that the Zerg HAS to go in with mutas by themselves wayyy before the two armies engage. It's been like that currently simply because nothing has been stopping them from doing so.
On November 13 2009 06:10 mOnion wrote: is it just me or have like 6 DA's been used this month in the pro league?
it wasnt long ago when you'd go a whole season without seeing ONE, and i just saw like 6 rapid fire.
It's definitely being experimented with to address the muta issue of sniping templar. Although I think the BIGGEST problem is actually the fact the Zerg can take such an easy third gas which allows for the easy accumulation of 900 gas for mutas to snipe the templar in tandem with lurker usage (all the while toss is on two gas).
I wonder if HBR would be more balanced if the third didn't have a geyser but the fourth (mineral only) did.
Well since it is so obvious (I wouldn't try try to get a DA with mutas either - unless I am sure the DA has no energy), you might wonder why I wrote about it in the first place. And find out why.
Well, and DAs don't lag behind, but are right along with the zeals/archons. So they are potentially less exposed than HTs, especially when the whole army is on the move. If you a-move the DA together with other units past the enemy's units it will obviously be easy to snipe, but only if you actually are in a fight which causes zeals/archs to slow down and engage. Otherwise the DA won't be separated. If you control your army well, the DA should be in a good safe spot. Of course there will be times when you mess up, but the same is true for zerg (like having all your mutas die to storm when you let them stop for a few seconds). It's also very similar for terrans with the first vessel, you've got to be very careful with it. In a reaver/sair build you are way behind if you lose a corsair early on. Losing the first defilers in tvz can mean instant death. I don't see why being unable to 1a2a3a into victory is such a big thing.
As I said, if the zerg doesn't engage with his mutas early, you'll be at an advantage in battles. Hopefully you don't misjudge the situation and waste your only maelstrom on 2 hydras, but you have a similar problem if you make corsairs do defend your HTs and don't have them near the HTs in that crucial moment. If the zerg tries to snipe HTs during the battle, it will be equally harder to micro for both players.
On November 13 2009 06:30 spinesheath wrote: Well since it is so obvious (I wouldn't try try to get a DA with mutas either - unless I am sure the DA has no energy), you might wonder why I wrote about it in the first place. And find out why.
Well, and DAs don't lag behind, but are right along with the zeals/archons. So they are potentially less exposed than HTs, especially when the whole army is on the move. If you a-move the DA together with other units past the enemy's units it will obviously be easy to snipe, but only if you actually are in a fight which causes zeals/archs to slow down and engage. Otherwise the DA won't be separated. If you control your army well, the DA should be in a good safe spot. Of course there will be times when you mess up, but the same is true for zerg (like having all your mutas die to storm when you let them stop for a few seconds). It's also very similar for terrans with the first vessel, you've got to be very careful with it. In a reaver/sair build you are way behind if you lose a corsair early on. Losing the first defilers in tvz can mean instant death. I don't see why being unable to 1a2a3a into victory is such a big thing.
As I said, if the zerg doesn't engage with his mutas early, you'll be at an advantage in battles. Hopefully you don't misjudge the situation and waste your only maelstrom on 2 hydras, but you have a similar problem if you make corsairs do defend your HTs and don't have them near the HTs in that crucial moment. If the zerg tries to snipe HTs during the battle, it will be equally harder to micro for both players.
I responded to the Muta snipe in an apologetic tone - I didn't mean to criticize you for it.
I was just saying that DA's CAN be sniped, indeed very similar to how a defiler could get sniped and lose the game for Zerg or how a Vessel could get sniped and lose the game for Terran... it does happen, and it's just another risk you have to address when going the DA build. That was the point, at least.
Concerning the mutas, all I've been saying is that the Zerg can still harness them potentially well. Zerg still flies around Terran using his Mutalisks (at marginal efficiency) even when Vessels are around, which fuck up the Mutas quite badly. Zerg can still fly into the Toss main and attempt to snipe HT if it knows where the DA is, etc.
Maybe I'm playing devils advocate. I don't even really have too much of a problem with your logic, I'm just annoyed at claims (particularly that of RaptorX) that now claim with 2 successes with the DA and something like 3-4 fails, that the DA has been proven to be better than sairs.
I'm not angry or insulted or anything, just wanted to point out that this irrelevant talk could have been avoided
I disagree with those statements too, I've said multiple times that the DA isn't some miracle unit that suddenly makes protoss win 70% of the time. The DA use I suggest isn't aiming towards winning with that one push, but towards getting into a good position for the later stages of the game. DAs don't micro themselves, but the same is true for any other unit.
The DA deals with one of biggest problems in todays pvz very effectively. Of course it doesn't fix everything, but so far imo there hasn't been anything mentioned that would punish getting a DA so hard that it isn't viable to get a DA. Still, arguing with other people is a good way to spot serious issues. Especially if you (mechanically) suck with protoss like I do.
I'm just annoyed at claims (particularly that of RaptorX) that now claim with 2 successes with the DA and something like 3-4 fails, that the DA has been proven to be better than sairs.
ok...
First I would like to clarify that I dont say that DA's > Sairs all the time, I am talking about a specific task... stopping muta sniping.
from my post about the VOD:
proving that, DA > Corsair against templar sniping, AND DA > Corsair in middle game battle such as killing hydras to kick zergs ass...
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
And is it not true that DA > Corsair against hydras since Corsairs cant really attack hydras but if you maelstrom a part of them you can kill them easily?... I mean c'mon...
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position... but all of that depend on the players and all the other stuff so that is always subject of debate.
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic part of my comment?
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position...
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic parts of my comments?
You don't get it. It's because you have ONEEEEE example to support your claims. You're saying it is better for the midgame push situation. Toss should go DA as the standard build. We don't know that yet. Simple. Going DA means that Zerg doesn't have to build scourge or replace as many OL's, meaning extra larvae. It means you have to bulid more cannons at your main. It means you have significantly less scouting potential as singular sairs can be picked off by scourge. It means you have less protection for shuttles from scourge for storm drops. So many variables that affect gameplay. It's the last time I'm going to state it, but we've seen SEVERAL examples of DA maelstorming mutas and the toss losing because the Zerg still manages to get a few templar before the maelstorm or there is no storm to kill the maeled mutas in time. It's only if htey are all in PERFECT positioning, etc. Yes I realize they'll keep them together during the push but it's just SO many variables you aren't addressing.
well, the idea in the OP was that once you merged your DA and researched maelstrom you can continue with your normal game-play...
I dont think a DA will keep you from continue building Sairs as you want... your resources and everything else is the same, we are not telling you to change your whole standard play, I do believe and I am trying to slowly include DA's in to the standard build for that particular zerg playing type, and since usually you do those 2 DT's you can:
1) go straight to DA as violet did or 2) try to harass as you normally do and later on merge the DA who will help you in mid-game, as I have said before in the thread.
I do not need that VOD to prove that DA > Corsair against muta sniping... you know it because I have been explaining those things BEFORE that video... but that VOD is a perfect example of why, and I have repeated that over and over again... that VOD is about the WHY:
the answer in that VOD is that DA > Corsair "Because insta-stopping mutas is way better than hitting them over and over again... is quicker, more effective and compared to all the other vods where they try to use 8-10 corsairs to stop the sniping DA actually get things done, when lots of times mutas still snipe the HT's because they hit and run before the sairs can really kill them."
I did never say 'go and do what violet did', I am saying that you can see why is better. I didnt say it will win all the games but I do believe it will help more than sairs in mid-game battles.
On November 13 2009 06:10 mOnion wrote: is it just me or have like 6 DA's been used this month in the pro league?
it wasnt long ago when you'd go a whole season without seeing ONE, and i just saw like 6 rapid fire.
They read my thread obviously :p
Still amazing how many people are making DA vs corsair comparisons when in reality it is not as difficult as these people are making it out to be to end up with a DA in your army and still go for corsair production if you want.
that is not the point. The point of the DA is you can build a gateway based army, then after the mid-game transition back into whatever you want because prevention of temp sniping lets you have map control and an army that is not just vanilla (aka just goon/zeal/archon with no storm).
There are many of builds/strats that go 5-6+ corsairs, and usually those end up of course stopping muta easily because you have the corsairs...but then you still can get steamrolled on the ground.
The DA, neutralizing the mutas in a different way, so you can steamroll the Zerg on the ground, from there you can secure your third on maps where it is tough to do that, like HBR.
The key difference is the DA lets you secure the third and gain more mobility because you can engage the Zerg army if needed, and you will have enough units to take your third, whereas massive amounts of corsairs may reduce your army size too much to easily secure the third -> which then means you die anyways.
Think of the DA like a science vessel, or like a Templar, or like a defiler - that is how it is supposed to be used. Imagine Zerg before defilers, how everyone would probably think, "holy fuck it is impossible to consume little tiny Zerglings over and over, that will take soooo much APM while microing everything else and macroing."
Well, they learned to do it out of necessity, and a DA is infinitely easier to use as it is just 2 clicks to maelstrom a muta clump, and then it's served it's purpose.
The violet game posted is the FIRST, progame where the Protoss did not insta-shove his maelstrom the second he saw the mutas, as well as the first game where Protoss made sure to control his army to have templar/an archon nearby to clean up the mutas. Before this Violet game, progamers (as the macrobots they are they cannot handle new wrinkles as fast as say, foreigners would be able to) were just making bad decisions with their maelstrom, doing it when they had no templar/archon in range, because their coaches or themselves or whatever had a trigger in their head of "OMG MUTA CLUMP ME MAELSTROM NOW NOW NOW."
Violet showed a clearheaded and well executed maelstrom. Look at all the other games so far with DA's, they are LOLicious at how bad progamers were using maelstrom. They had the build and idea right, but were not using their heads.
you know what, I am discovering that I have comunication issues... avilo you just explained everything clear as water... thats what I have been trying to tell fable all along...
you standard build is not delayed, changed or ruined. you can do whatever you want be it mass sairs, goons, reavers. you will not insta-win or anything of the sort...
You are just replacing sairs for DA's to do that one stuff against mutas. You can still use your sairs for anything you want from scouting till protecting your base against backstabs or ovie hunting, is your choice... And yes, this last game was totally different than all the others, and yes it helped clearing out some myths like unit count, DA cost, scouting problems since if Violet was able to handle those things it means its possible... and again it shows why one unit is better than other in a specific scenario, while the other VOD's as avilo pointed out are so macro based that showed nothing relevant on the OP.
DA's for meta-game is kinda intelligent because thats all they're good for lol. psychological warfare. but then again, we need another nal ra or bisu to bring the use of maelstrom into the mainstream. thats the only way DA's can gain legitimacy because...
1. seriously why would u take a no-atk red useless ball over 2 invisible 40-dmg awesome units? u must be crazy, unless there are multiple DA's and they freeze an entire zerg army efficiently.
2. maelstrom is actually good, but no one is there to use it.
I'd like to mention that violet didn't merge his DTs immediately. He poked out of his base, made sure that the zerg knew he made DTs, and scared the hydras away.
On November 13 2009 08:59 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: DA's for meta-game is kinda intelligent because thats all they're good for lol. psychological warfare. but then again, we need another nal ra or bisu to bring the use of maelstrom into the mainstream. thats the only way DA's can gain legitimacy because...
1. seriously why would u take a no-atk red useless ball over 2 invisible 40-dmg awesome units? u must be crazy, unless there are multiple DA's and they freeze an entire zerg army efficiently.
2. maelstrom is actually good, but no one is there to use it.
Damage isn't everything. Defilers without plague don't deal any damage either, but they protect your units with swarm. DAs don't deal any damage but they protect your HTs - pretty much the most important units against 5 hatch hydra - from mutas. Also, with 5 hatch hydra, early overlord speed is standard because zerg doesn't want to spawn 50 hydras just to get them all killed by DTs. That's why you rarely see DTs in midgame past the initial harrass, and except for those used for scouting/denying expansions/drop harrass.
Dragoons are better than Zealots to kill vultures... true or false..? I would say that it is true... Zealots are better than Goons to take sieged tanks... right? yes we know... Zealots sucks against lurkers but Goons work better against them... thats quite true...
Then why is it so controversial to state that DA are WAY better than Corsairs at stopping mutas from snipping HT's and that that particular vod shows WHY and is a good example of what the OP was talking about... I mean, why?
Im not saying something so wrong that could make fable feel chills in his back every time I state that... like if I said that maelstrom is the best againts sieged tanks or something of the sort...
I am stating that DA > Corsair at stopping the muta snipes but at the same time I do acknowledge that Corsairs have their use and important play in PvZ... is just that DA will do much better at that particular task.
The most touchy point I do back up is that once you stop a bunch of mutas from sniping your HT's or in the case that zerg doesnt do mutas because of your DA then I do think Protoss are on a better possition... I would even say that they are in advantage, since as I pointed out you can use your storm whenever you like, how ever you like, as much as you want, which considering that zerg units take so much damage from it would put them in a more defensive/careful position than current PvZ where protoss is the one in a defensive position...
Everyone that accepts the DA statement is indirectly accepting the idea that DA would be better than corsairs in that particular task.... I still dont get it... where is the heretic parts of my comments?
You don't get it. It's because you have ONEEEEE example to support your claims. You're saying it is better for the midgame push situation. Toss should go DA as the standard build. We don't know that yet. Simple. Going DA means that Zerg doesn't have to build scourge or replace as many OL's, meaning extra larvae. It means you have to bulid more cannons at your main. It means you have significantly less scouting potential as singular sairs can be picked off by scourge. It means you have less protection for shuttles from scourge for storm drops. So many variables that affect gameplay. It's the last time I'm going to state it, but we've seen SEVERAL examples of DA maelstorming mutas and the toss losing because the Zerg still manages to get a few templar before the maelstorm or there is no storm to kill the maeled mutas in time. It's only if htey are all in PERFECT positioning, etc. Yes I realize they'll keep them together during the push but it's just SO many variables you aren't addressing.
About the shuttle part: If you have more mapcontrol, you don't have to play as defensively, and because of that you don't have to harrass so much because you'll be able to pressure the zerg with your main army. On some maps, for example HBR, you can use your army well to protect your shuttles, at least if you are dropping the zergs main. Obviously DA play is different from sair play, so you really shouldn't be comparing those so much. The question should be: Is it viable to go for a more map control oriented build instead of a harrass and timing attack oriented one as you would normally do with lots of corsairs, and if it is, is the DA viable for that? I'd clearly say it is, and I'd also say that corsairs are not as viable for that style of play.
I just wanted to say that the few times there has been a hidden DA built into tosses army I have gotten brutalized. Once all my mutas, once 5 lurkers and once he maelstormed my drones and stormed them =(
I just noticed something that I'd like to share in the violet vs hyuk game.
You see violet actually spread his observer out so that he knows exactly when/where the mutalisks are comming, and when they come he's practically waiting for a maelstrom to happen. I feel this is very important part of the strategy since you don't want to lose all your templars to surprise THEN have the maelstrom go off. Also DA moves much faster than HT, so your army will have to do some double-back to make sure they cover each other, possibly making your push slower.
Also if you notice violet's game plan, he did not take his 3rd early and he's basically doing a one base timing push, i think his strategy is along the line of "I roll out 1a2a3a and he'll try to defend, he won't kill my high-templars and it would be gg" And it was!
yeah, I mentioned once that this relies a lot on scouting to go well and that low level players like me are going to have some multitasking to add. For that reason I would say this is very difficult to pull off in the case the zerg goes harassing mode instead of attacking your main push ht's, cause you will have to know where his mutas are, as you could see in that game violet was scouting like hell as you pointed out.
I also think his 3rd was not totally delayed since he went to expand as he was rolling out as you could see, so it is a "I attack expand" kind of mentality. Actually for me he expanded a little bit earlier, because usually protoss waits to have zerg away from the middle of the map to be sure he wont lose it right away. In this game he went out and sent probe right away + some zealots after frying the mutas.
On November 21 2009 02:41 evanthebouncy! wrote: I just noticed something that I'd like to share in the violet vs hyuk game.
You see violet actually spread his observer out so that he knows exactly when/where the mutalisks are comming, and when they come he's practically waiting for a maelstrom to happen. I feel this is very important part of the strategy since you don't want to lose all your templars to surprise THEN have the maelstrom go off. Also DA moves much faster than HT, so your army will have to do some double-back to make sure they cover each other, possibly making your push slower.
Also if you notice violet's game plan, he did not take his 3rd early and he's basically doing a one base timing push, i think his strategy is along the line of "I roll out 1a2a3a and he'll try to defend, he won't kill my high-templars and it would be gg" And it was!
Nice pic. Shows once more how amazing Violet played in this game.
You have to slow your army down a bit to allow the HTs to follow anyways. There's not much to gain from attacking the zerg without HT support. And if you make the DA follow a HT (the frontmost one preferably) it will always be close.
It certainly wasn't a 1 base timing push, or is the natural considered part of your main base nowadays? And I also don't think he planned to end the game right there (as I have pointed out earlier). It is common practice to secure an expansion by having a strong push in the middle.
Bisu used dark archons in his game vs gorush tonight, not as spectacular as killing 11 mutas in one go, but just shows that DAs are being used more and more by pros. I will post the VOD when it gets uploaded.
this thread its visionary and shows how the community has growth, not only people with +2000 posts can aport new ideas and help the new ones, with the streams, youtube and all the circulating information the level of technics knowledge its rising faster than ever. Maybe now we can compete with the basic sc:bw knowledge of the average population in korea XD
I definitely think the DA is one of the keys to shaking up the current PvZ archetype, especially since Maelstrom is so good if you use it correctly, but, like many people before have said, the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice. We need pro's to continue to do it and test it.
On January 11 2010 06:36 Stratos_speAr wrote: ... , the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice...
I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal?
On January 11 2010 06:36 Stratos_speAr wrote: ... , the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice...
I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal?
It takes about as much apm as an irradiate. Now don't tell me Protoss can't find the apm to do that when terrans have to constantly be irradiating throughout a whole TvZ.
I too don't see the big deal about how using DAs require an insane amount of apm. What people need to do is start using them and test them out. Kind of odd to just wait till a progamer tests it out and says its viable. This is how we develop strategies!
On January 11 2010 06:36 Stratos_speAr wrote: ... , the problem is that it just takes a lot of APM and practice...
I fail to see why does it takes too much APM. It takes the same to storm and nobody complains about that. Or microing a reaver/shuttle. Whats the big deal?
Too much? Hmmm, I'm pretty sure that phrase NEVER came up in my post... wait, lets check....
Nope, not once.
It just takes more than what the current PvZ metagame calls for, something that will require a switch by pro's, which will take time.
Well that pusan game was a great highlight of what avilo is talking about. The dts are there early enough to soft counter any pressure and then the corsair goes and scouts the tech, In that specific example the scourge mismicro lets the corsair live too! thus spire tech is revealed, thus the maelstrom counter worked perfectly if you watch him maelstrom and clear with the archon. If the corsair scouts no spire, I don't know what to do then but I imagine the hydra bust and a lurker contain could cause this kind of style a bunch of problems... But I'm thinking that the DA timing is after the scout timing for any cheese so you don't have to commit to it whatsoever if you dont see spire. more dt's?
It has nice use as we saw in the ASL recently and it can certainly be useful in late game armies when Z has enough detection so dt are a little useless but going DA first (first as in instead of corsair) leaves you completely open to muta harass because DA are slow and big (and on the ground). The reason you open corsair is to not lose all your probes (on top of the scouting potnetial and overlord hunting, reducing Z s vision). Mutas are faster and around the time you need to defend your hts from being sniped by mutas, you only have one DA (possibly 2) and you cant defend your mineral lines as well as your hts. And it s risky as well because if you somehow miss the spell it s insta GG. At that stage of the game you dont have a lot of gas to spare. It s a very high risk and once you use your spell the DA is useless for a while.
On October 14 2017 11:49 WGT-Baal wrote: It has nice use as we saw in the ASL recently and it can certainly be useful in late game armies when Z has enough detection so dt are a little useless but going DA first (first as in instead of corsair) leaves you completely open to muta harass because DA are slow and big (and on the ground). The reason you open corsair is to not lose all your probes (on top of the scouting potnetial and overlord hunting, reducing Z s vision). Mutas are faster and around the time you need to defend your hts from being sniped by mutas, you only have one DA (possibly 2) and you cant defend your mineral lines as well as your hts. And it s risky as well because if you somehow miss the spell it s insta GG. At that stage of the game you dont have a lot of gas to spare. It s a very high risk and once you use your spell the DA is useless for a while.
Maelstrom isn't really that 'risky', and will definitely catch mutalisks if they fly even close because DAs are the longest-ranged spell-casters in the whole game. They seldom see use in this capacity for a variety of reasons, but I'd never discourage someone from making them unless they were hurting their templar/archon timing, because DAs aren't quite as useful in ground engagements unless you have a few of them and then some kind of AoE units, like reavers or archons, to quickly kill all the paralyzed zerg units.
in resource rich games, protoss players should make DA every pvz. not really for the maelstrom, feedbacking defilers itself is worth it. I'm also confident it's possible to successfully mix them in against zergs who like to do the mass hydra then 10 muta to snipe templars style of play, but it's not cool when the guy went lurker instead.
On October 15 2017 05:18 Liquid`Drone wrote: in resource rich games, protoss players should make DA every pvz. not really for the maelstrom, feedbacking defilers itself is worth it. I'm also confident it's possible to successfully mix them in against zergs who like to do the mass hydra then 10 muta to snipe templars style of play, but it's not cool when the guy went lurker instead.
Watching your game on Neo Medusa in Clash for Char for this was astounding. It was such a great game.
EDIT: IIRC it was you, but I can't be certain it wasn't Naugrim hah
that was against naugrim on blue storm. And yeah, feedback was amazing in that game, I remember hearing the sound of consume and scrambling to get my DA to the front asap. Sadly, it also showed the backside - I rushed for DA because I anticipated mutas to counter my non-sair build (and mutas are frequently favored on blue storm anyway), but as he instead went for fast lurkers, I ended up behind from the get-go. So that game basically showed both how great getting 1 DA can be in the late game, and why it's risky to do it early on.
So anyways, Mind Control has become the standard go to in high level Korean PvZ mega late game situations where the map is dangerously close to or completely mined out.
It's similar to the shift in ZvT to Spawn Broodlings, trading energy to instantly remove enemy units. You don't see it that often because PvZ is much more volatile than ZvT, and usually ends before the map is close to mining out.
On October 15 2017 18:08 NickHotS wrote: So anyways, Mind Control has become the standard go to in high level Korean PvZ mega late game situations where the map is dangerously close to or completely mined out.
what is this based upon? I don't watch streams that often, do people really play like that? Would be glad to see any recent and/or cool vods with DAs.
On October 15 2017 18:08 NickHotS wrote: So anyways, Mind Control has become the standard go to in high level Korean PvZ mega late game situations where the map is dangerously close to or completely mined out.
what is this based upon? I don't watch streams that often, do people really play like that? Would be glad to see any recent and/or cool vods with DAs.
I've also seen it in a game between BeSt and Larva, and maybe a few other times. I'll take a look again when I have some time and see if I can find any of the other games.
Basically, it's just based on watching a lot of Korean PvZ on Afreeca between the top players. But again, it's a rare thing, so that's why it's not really known as a standard. Either Protoss or Zerg usually dies before the map is close to mining out.
In ZvT it's more common to see the map mining out and Queens since Zerg and Terran are both kind of hard for each other to kill. Also, there is more early-mid game stability, and late game transitions are very figured out now.
The usage is pretty simple though, Protoss turtles with lots of Photon Cannons, Dark Archons and High Templars for Mind Control and Psionic Storm. Zerg tries using power units/spells casters of all kinds, and they are either Mind Controlled or killed off by Storms/Cannons. Zerg runs out of money and army supply, and Protoss eventually wins.
I feel Zerg really wants to avoid a mined out map situation, but maybe it's possible that Zerg will eventually develop counterplay when they get into these situations. They are so rare that it's a hard thing to practice for.
Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys.
Funny to bump this thread but yes the dark archons has always been an excellent unit to use in Pvz. Maelstrom and feedback are more than cost effective and can even pay in the range of 10 to 20 fold returns. It’s protoss players tendency to play conservative that have really bit many of them in the ass when it comes to having careers like flash have had using terran. Bisu stork and best probably would have won more pvzs if his Coach forced him to research this every game vs Zerg. Even mind control can be good as hell vs ultralisks. It’s also good in pvp vs temps and carriers.
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys.
I'm curious, is there a vod with a progame where the toss uses dark archons?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgXeM0CjSs Here’s a good one, not a major stakes game but you get the idea of how strong it is especially with Zerg players tendency to stack their mutas and clump their hydras and other units. Maelstrom + psi storm or light (normal) archons = instant death for Muta and most other Zerg units.
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys.
I'm curious, is there a vod with a progame where the toss uses dark archons?
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys.
Well it took 9 years to finally get your words from TL to korean pros, they wouldn't get it themselves...
On October 20 2018 08:11 avilo wrote: Hello 2018. Finally. Looks like it's finally happening in pr0-games in 2018...that dark archon play. The theory has come to fruition. It only took 9 yrs guys.
Well, now I know you don't watch pro games because it's been done before.
Just like how many people were saying DA usage was ineffective, I say corsair d-web ability is underrated as well. If you're in a position where you don't make a lot of corsairs or have any left, then DA is probably a more effective approach to stopping muta sniping hts. If you still have your corsairs I'd say d-web is better for taking out zerg expansions because maelstrom doesn't do as much against static defense. Just a couple well placed d-webs can disable spore sunks and lurkers so that your zealots actually survive for a lot longer while they screen the lings from killing your dragoons.
If a sunk and spore are only a building square away(meaning if you can place a hydraden/evo chamber between them) you can actually have a d-web overlap between them and disable both of them even though they are barely covering on the edge of both of them. So think about the actual surface area you're eliminating with and making zerg only be able to attack in limited confined areas which is what you want.
I think protoss progamers should really utilize corsairs a lot better and invest in fleet beacon and d-web research instead of trying the macro and ram units up against the hatchery walls tactic. In a pinch d-webs can still help in mobile fights as long as you place them well especially against walls and other terrain and those few seconds for them to move hydras and units out of the d-web area is still valuable time that their DPS is reduced effectively. Corsair purposes fulfill
1. Scouting 2. Killing OL, slowing down unit production and making them waste larvae 3. Denying map control which can open up possibilities for DT harass and can dictate the pace of the game forcing zerg to watch out for DTs, buying you time. 4. Discourages muta switch and avoids the situation of having your HTs sniped. 5. D-web to lay siege against a sunk/spore lurker defense and more easily take out expos while keeping your army alive. Protoss units by their nature are more expensive so to compensate they need to utilize all their abilities to win. So why not add d-web to help conserve your resources by allowing your units to fight longer, survive and snowball army advantage instead of trying to outmacro zerg and win by attrition unless you also successfully harass often times zerg can get by with a lot less and still defend with lurkers. Think about the game Larvae vs Rain few ASL seasons back. Rain was up more than 100 supply I think. How much resources Rain wasted with his army trying to ram his units against a few well placed lurkers hatchery/evo/den wall with sunk and spore. A few d-webs would disable a lot of those lurker/sunks and then he would just have his goons taking them down while zealots screen against the lings. I mean he had 100 supply adv for a lot of the game! Rain even did try storm drops multiple times while atking simultaneously but Larvae was just on top of his game and didn't lose as much as Rain invested into those harassments and eventually lost the war of attrition DESPITE BEING 100 SUPPLY ahead, can I emphasize that enough? Sure Rain's attacks could use some improvement and his decision making, but the fact that zerg can hold on with a lot less holds true which is why we know in PvZ protoss generally should be at least 15-20 supply ahead or he is LOSING since zerg units don't take up much supply they have a bigger army than what the population count suggests.
Corsairs dweb is something that’s needs to get tried more versus Terran. I don’t see it being that good vs Zerg when the army is so mobile that the z can just run 90% of it away from any dwebs. Don’t forget it works on all units friendly and foe so it will really fuck up your own zealots as Toss even if used vs lurkers. Siege tanks on the other hand can’t really move around at all. Maybe shuttle should use dweb versus flash.
On October 22 2018 13:37 Yanokabo wrote: Corsairs dweb is something that’s needs to get tried more versus Terran. I don’t see it being that good vs Zerg when the army is so mobile that the z can just run 90% of it away from any dwebs. Don’t forget it works on all units friendly and foe so it will really fuck up your own zealots as Toss even if used vs lurkers. Siege tanks on the other hand can’t really move around at all. Maybe shuttle should use dweb versus flash.
d-web is better against zerg because of the reasons i stated why it's used in pvz. It has a lot of purposes and roles to fulfill while in PvT it's only role is to provide d-web. But the fact that Terran is very immobile, d-web might be worth considering more, you just have to be careful of EMPs more since corsairs stack. When you get both upgrades for d-web and energy, you can usually get 2 d-webs relatively soon from each other, which means for 1 corsair you can theoretically disable quite a bit of the terran army, but you have to d-web very quickly a few spots in the terran army that isn't stacked upon each other to maximize the area you're disabling. If you can land 2 d-webs perfectly you can disable 8-10 tanks even if they are a bit spread apart, since the surface area of the web affects slightly more than the circle suggests, so you don't need to overlap to ensure some units don't atk. So corsairs may have faster application than waiting for arbiters, it may be worth considering, and zealots usage would be minimal.
In PvZ you don't use d-web in mobile fights, you use them when you're assaulting bases or close quarters where there's walls and areas to defend. Carriers aren't a viable strategy against Zerg unless you've transitioned from sair/reaver.