On August 06 2010 09:39 Mystlord wrote: And fantasy making a big splash in BW again... This isn't impossible to beat, it's just that Zergs have to adapt their Mech strategy a bit to play against this properly. Against normal Mech, Zerg has the advantage of a much better economy, but against a bio -> Mech, Zerg has the advantage of higher tech. Defiler + Lurker is actually a very effective defensive combination against Mech, and more so because the Terran's Vessel count is limited.
Another thing, Vessel count doesn't limit the Zerg's ability to go mass Mutalisks at all, especially on Polaris Rhapsody (the supposedly "imba" map of last night), because of the double gas expansion. Terran will have to get some Goliaths then to counter the Mutalisk threat, and that will pull the Terran's gas in three directions: Tank, Vessel, and Goliath, not to mention the decreased Vulture count.
If there's one other disadvantage that Zerg has in this style of play, it's that their upgrades are completely messed up. Carapace upgrades are essentially useless, and they aren't getting the Missile attack nor Air Carapace upgrades they'll need to push back Mech.
This isn't really "unbeatable", it's just another strategy experiencing a peak in usage, like 3 Hatch Muta -> Quick Hive or Corsair/Reaver. Zergs will soon find a way around it.
That being said, the performance of Jaedong and Effort (especially Effort) last night wasn't too hot. Not really the best decision making I've seen by either player in recent times. I mean Effort sending streams of units in against Mech or Jaedong attacking an established Terran position without Swarm is just ugh.
Regarding that game, Sea actually said he was amazed at how jaedong played and that no Zerg he encountered in practice ever played that well against it
On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote: It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me.
im pretty sure he meant that the zerg would have to outplay the terran mechanically and tactically, because hed be strategically unable to do so. Ofc you could say that all terrans are outplaying zergs these days, because terrans have revolutionized tvz, while zvt is somewhat stagnant strategically.
what do you and others think about this game? not gonna say this revolutionizes zvt, but i think this was a great approach by by.hero to fool with the terran's head. (the head that's so used to standard zvt builds)
the early burrow to delay nat (while making forgg think he was going speedlings), and then faking mutas while instead going lurkers. while forgg is preparing the wrong units to combat units that aren't even made, forgg is safely taking his expansions getting his 3rd/4th gas easily. he then just presses his advantage with an amazing econ advantage while climbing the tech ladder quickly as well as getting his upgrades.
yeah it was a pretty nice surprise build, but i dont think it would work if zergs started doing it alot. Imo hero wasnt put ahead economically at all by the build, but psychologically he took a huge lead. The reason why he got so far ahead is that forgg wasted/delayed his scanners in attempting to take his nat, so he had no idea what hero was doing and was forced to build tons of defense. Hero took advantage of this and went for the least aggressive build possible.
I think if forgg just built a turret there right away instead of using his first scan @ his natural, he would have been in a much better position.
Kwanro vs Flash: Queens with broodling and mass crap. Hyvaa vs Flash: Good positioning with terrain use and using cheap, heavily upgraded low-tech units Effort vs Flash: Extensive use of drop Action games: use of defiler swarms and Plague.
out of all of these, the second and fourth work the best
lol using fantasy and Leta as examples, nice main mech users in BW scene, mainly fantasy as Leta was known more for Wraith usage (that fails as well), imo fantasy is the only terran that can open mechanic against zerg properly, Midas and FlaSh are just copiers •_•
On August 06 2010 13:34 TriniMasta wrote: lol using fantasy and Leta as examples, nice main mech users in BW scene, mainly fantasy as Leta was known more for Wraith usage (that fails as well), imo fantasy is the only terran that can open mechanic against zerg properly, Midas and FlaSh are just copiers •_•
yeah flash really didnt know what he was doing when he 3-0ed jaedong, he just copied fantasy and hoped it would work.
Another thing, Vessel count doesn't limit the Zerg's ability to go mass Mutalisks at all, especially on Polaris Rhapsody (the supposedly "imba" map of last night), because of the double gas expansion. Terran will have to get some Goliaths then to counter the Mutalisk threat, and that will pull the Terran's gas in three directions: Tank, Vessel, and Goliath, not to mention the decreased Vulture count.
i really like this idea because it shows how well thought out flash's play against zero was on polaris. he was able to stay on 3 gas for the entire game and produced a whole chunk of tanks and vultures with minimal goliaths. the turrets did most of the anti-air work and the amount of turrets were probably the reasons why zero didn't go mass mutas to get some guardians because the timing and amount of gas that was needed would compromise on his ground army, making his breaks less successful.. though they weren't in the first place.
- How does feel to win the first game of the Round out of 8? ▲ I thought I would win with ease because I prepared well, but I realized that the #1 ranked Zerg is indeed different. Nothing like this happened during practice, and I won due to Terran's innate fraudulence. [T/N: implying Terran is imbalanced, so it's fraudulent to use in games.] I will not let my guard down because I won today and I really need to prepare for the next match thoroughly.
to anyone who still think the match-up is balanced
I think that considering it takes quite a bit of time doing that late-game mech transition, zergs should learn to find the exact timing and double (possibly triple) expand to get the necessary economic advantage
I feel silly posting in BW strategy because I don't actually play but felt this game should be mentionned too, since it was played before Fantasy vs Zero:
On August 06 2010 17:06 hypercube wrote: I feel silly posting in BW strategy because I don't actually play but felt this game should be mentionned too, since it was played before Fantasy vs Zero:
So we also should mention famous game Fantasy vs Jeadong in SPL great final, when the mech transition (tank banking) was critical factor that won a game. But yeah, while the Fantasy invented that style of play (tell what you want, he is true revolutionist!), that is Flash, who is making this standard. I think that Flash's perfect mechanic is the deciding factor that makes the stuff like that popular. Fantasy himself , while one of the top players, cannot be match in mechanic factor for Flash.
But i think that this game (and Flash vs Calm) are not true bio --> mech, its just heavy tank late game, so its quite different than Fantasy vs Zero game.
So we also should mention famous game Fantasy vs Jeadong in SPL great final, when the mech transition (tank banking) was critical factor that won a game. But yeah, while the Fantasy invented that style of play (tell what you want, he is true revolutionist!), that is Flash, who is making this standard. I think that Flash's perfect mechanic is the deciding factor that makes the stuff like that popular. Fantasy himself , while one of the top players, cannot be match in mechanic factor for Flash.
True, although that transition came even later than in the Flash game and the game was pretty crazy before that too. I guess someone has to come up with the idea for the first time, but it usually takes more than one player to work out all the details.
Isn't there an obvious way to spot the transition? We could suicide an overlord once in a while to see for instance an armory or extra factories being added on. That way we can choose to step in or over the window. T will be weak during his transition; we could expand extra or try to kill him there.
On August 06 2010 18:37 Navane wrote: Isn't there an obvious way to spot the transition? We could suicide an overlord once in a while to see for instance an armory or extra factories being added on. That way we can choose to step in or over the window. T will be weak during his transition; we could expand extra or try to kill him there.
Action relied on defilers and attacking at multiple fronts. Well executed, abusing terran immobility like a pro. I loved the lurkers at the bridges that denied the vultures - killing 5-6 vultures out of every group. More of that please. Perhaps it was also a case of Leta getting greedy. Flash sat on his bases the entire game getting an army and upgrades. Leta wanted more, spreading his army thin giving Action time to counter. Very nice game overall
On August 06 2010 01:19 Harem wrote: @OP: You're missing
This game shows how obnoxious Terran tech switches are nowadays.
Also, that taking a terran's potential 4th-5th gas really limits their options and potential in the later game. However, on 2p maps, it can be a lot harder to achieve this.
The problem here is that for the Zerg to even have a chance at beating this, they have to be many steps above their opponent. (JD vs. Midas) If the Zerg is better but not by a large amount, they have no chance. (JD vs. Sea) Sea himself admitted this.
RIP Zergs V.V I'd hate to see Sea/Light winning the Bo5s in the Msl, with the zergs trying half-assed midgame all-in strats (kwanro lawl) or cheese (4pool jd?)
I'd like to hear opinions from other korean players and day9 <3<3<3