The last 3 months ZvT has been in a bad spot, and one of the primary reasons is the new bio into late game mech switch terrans have been using.
What is it? Well, the name is pretty self explanatory. The terran player opens with a basic medic marine build, and generally some timing push involving a vessel. After a while, the terran player stops making medic marine and transitions into a pure mech army with tanks and vultures and goliaths and mines. The game that started it all:
What's so good about it? Well, this build has been giving Zerg headaches for a number of reasons. I'll list some of them: 1. Army composition. This one is fairly simple: Terran dictates the army composition. Zerg doesn't go hydras because he wants to, and then forces Terran to switch from bio to mech. If terran goes bio, Zerg must go ling lurker. If terran goes mech, Zerg must go hydra muta. Switching to mech lets Terran rain chaos on Zerg's lurker ling. While a zerg can make the switch, he will usually have plenty of useless lurkers he has to suicide, and he won't have many upgrades (attack or speed or whatnot) for his hydras, which lets Terran establish further map control. Ultras? Well, unfortunately ultras aren't that great against mech, and they eat a lot mines. To paraphrase Day9: "Hydra muta is the optimal composition vs mech. I've always said Ultras let siege tanks maximize their damage".
2. Vessels. Mutalisks are actually pretty good against mech. They hold their ground against goliaths, force Terran to make said goliaths (which then don't fare too well against hydras), and give Zerg a lot of opportunities to attack and counter attack. When a Terran goes mech, he usually won't tech to vessels for a while. Often times the terran even has to resort to valks to combat the threat. With the bio --> mech transition though, vessels are available and shortly become numerous, effectively shutting down mutas and allowing Terran to survive with very few goliaths: the rest become those pesky vultures. This game is a fairly good illustration of this (and it's just a fantastic game). Note how quickly Jaedong's mutas get repelled around the middle of the game, even though Midas has like 4 goliaths in the game.
3. MINEEESSSSS. The mech transition usually happens when Zerg is playing lurker / ling / defiler and looking to establish his 4th base and ultras. It's obvious here why mines are good: they ANNIHILATE this composition. Defiler lurker pushes? ling lurker pushes? Anything involving zerglings and lurkers? Boom. Even when ultras come out these bastards are annoying. That's the most obvious reason mines are so awesome. The unit composition Zerg needs vs bio just sucks against them. Another reason though: since Zerg can arely attack until they get an adequate hydra force to take out the mines, Zergs find it very hard to use the timing window during which terran is switching composition. This is a pretty big deal. The following game illustrates how awesome mines are, as well as how hard it is to deal with mech having to use the wrong composition. It also shows how the mines during the transition make it hard to Zerg to abuse the timing window.
4. Economy. I saved (in my opinion) the most important for last.
Straight up mech is a pretty outdated thing. Sure, it works on some maps but in general its fallen out of favor. Why? Because it offers Terran no map presence for a long time. 2 Base mech timing pushes are fairly easy to delay and hold off. Mech allows Zerg to get their 3rd up almost uncontested, and drone whore / expand a lot more after that too. Jaedong illustrates the most extreme example of this, abusing mech's lack of map presence and turning Starcraft into World of Hatcheries:
Unlike mech, however, bio forces Zerg to play a low econ game. Zerg can't even take their 3rd until over 7 minutes into the game, where they spawn 9 mutas just to keep terran in their base. After that Zerg techs to hive off 3 hatcheries, and tries to stay alive with defilers while grabbing a 4th gas and ultras (in the most standard game ever). In short, Zerg's economy is much weaker. Their expansions are limited, as is their luxury to produce drones. This is fine vs a medic marine army, which can be combated with a lower econ by using defilers and lurkers to make the most out of your units (until ultras show up).
This is not fine, however, against mech, where Zerg can't play low econ with muta harass and defiler pushes. Vs mech, Zerg just needs a ton of stuff: bases, drones, army, expansions, and hatcheries. That's the beauty of the bio --> mech switch. It forces Zerg to play on a lower economy, and then punish them for it by going mech. Pressure from medic marines doesn't allow Zerg the economy they would usually be able to get vs a pure meching terran. With that, the terran death ball becomes so much harder to fight. Killer vs Skyhigh offers a good illustration of how this strategy limits Zerg's expansions and economy.
Now, I realize the picture I'm painting is a little more bleak than reality. The bio --> mech switch isn't the end all strategy, and its been beat several times. Zergs have still found ways to push before the transition is complete (Jaedong vs Skyhigh on Fighting Spirit), and even after Terran has switched Zerg have still won by powering hydra / muta / ultra (Jaedong vs SSak on Eye of the Storm, or Jaedong vs Midas on Odd Eye). The strategy is, however, very powerful, and it's something that's been giving Zergs a lot of trouble. It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair. Even when they do, the strategy still sometimes allows Terran to win. (will insert Jaedong vs Sea video when it's uploaded to youtube).
What more is there to say about the switch? Anything else I'm missing that makes it powerful? And most importantly, what can Zerg do against this? Unlike Fantasy's last gimmicky strat (the vulture drop rush --> valk thingy), this one seems really solid and hasn't shown many weak spots.
Credentials I'm a max rank C terran who used this strat as one of my main TvZ strategies for about a month and a half. That's pretty much it though . I'm not the best player in the world, and I'm not Day9 when it comes to analysis but I did my best. I also haven't played BW for 3 or so weeks now, so I might be missing some things that maybe more skilled players can bring to light.
Also I didn't do any map analysis cause Fighting Spirit and Grand Line are the only maps in the new map pool that I've played myself and am familiar with. That being said, it doesn't seem as if this strategy is as map dependent as mech normally is.
EDIT: Quote from Sea about the strategy after defeating Jaedong with it:
- If you have to evaluate the late mechanic strategy ▲ In my opinion, if the Terran has absolute control over the late mechanic strategy, then the Zerg cannot win. If a Terran has really great command over this strategy, there is no way Zerg can win in an average map.
terran imba i believe you could drop your way to win. You can drop on top of tanks like in that zero vs flash game(didnt work there, but i believe if he attacked any other position with such mass drops he would have breaked the line . the left side of polaris rhapsody is more wide open) or you could try dropping some in main ( possibly defilers + lurkers under swarm; lurkers are really good if they have time to burrow under swarm, if u could burrow them on the main-->natural ramp you could possibly delay tanks for a while before irradiate comes) i think they could use guardians or just mutalisks to deal with mines and attack only after clearing all the mines up. and you can always DONT ATTACK and wait till they come. On polaris rhapsody there are good siege positions everywhere, but on fighting spirit the moment he would decide to attack with good scouting you could break it.
well yes as of now Z is painfully underpowered to the T in terms of strategy. I personally think going just pure air will work (imo, noobish as it may sound). by pure air i mean scourge, mass mutas, guardians in the back, and overlords shitting out hydra/ling( for the sole purpose of splash damage from the tanks and mines, hydra/ling doesnt actually do any damage) yes sci vessels are gunna be a total bitch, but with good scourge control i believe it can work.
Hydra/lurk would totally abuse this imo. Also, jaedong's lurk/queen vs fantasy i think would work against this, adapted of course to hydra instead of blitz defiler. The transition to mech would give time to build up queen energy and hydra upgrades, while lurkling deals with mm remains.
Ok, now I'm serious. This build looks good on some maps, but probably fails on other. Second denchanic game from fantasy against zero ended with an infamous zero's doom drop that devastated fantasy's factory count. I dont think that's a bad build, just not universal.
This game shows how obnoxious Terran tech switches are nowadays.
Also, that taking a terran's potential 4th-5th gas really limits their options and potential in the later game. However, on 2p maps, it can be a lot harder to achieve this.
On August 06 2010 00:57 DarkSaieden wrote: Hydra/lurk would totally abuse this imo. Also, jaedong's lurk/queen vs fantasy i think would work against this, adapted of course to hydra instead of blitz defiler. The transition to mech would give time to build up queen energy and hydra upgrades, while lurkling deals with mm remains.
In that game the purpose of the queens was to ensnare so the marines couldn't run away from lurkers / swarm. Doesn't really apply much here and queens using broodlings are definitely not game changing. It needs 150 energy and most of the time the queen would die to irradiate pretty quickly afterwards
This game shows how obnoxious Terran tech switches are nowadays.
Also, that taking a terran's potential 4th-5th gas really limits their options and potential in the later game. However, on 2p maps, it can be a lot harder to achieve this.
Agree, but this kinda goes back to point #4. With medic and marine pressure terran forces zerg to play low econ and remain relatively contained until defilers. Its so much harder to expand. Again, thats mainly why this strat is so effective.
I think this bo could actualy be alot better if terran also kept mantaining is small mnm army wich are better at map control and rape mutalisk hard and also allow you to do drops while mining/camping the rest of the map.
If terran is making his initial MM ball with only 2 or 3 barracks I think it might not be necessary for zerg to go lurker... perhaps if zerg scouts terran doing this transition with his normal muta harass he has a chance to just skip lurker and go pure hydra.
Great writeup. I like how all your examples of zergs beating this type of play are just jaedong lol.
I dont play zvt regularly so im just theorizing here, but i think the proper response for a zerg player going for safe play would be to use the timing window between bio and mech to pump drones and hatcheries, get dual evos and hydra upgrades, forgoing ultralisks in favor of mass hydra/ling/lurker/defiler. This is if the terran plays in the way you described, with lots of vultures/mines being annoying around the time zerg gets hive.
I watched the killer vs skyhigh game and the situation looked a bit different than the one you were talking about,since he went for mech first and then added bio in still pretty early in the game. But it was also very effective lol.
I think the zergs biggest problem with mixed bio/mech style in general is being able to scout adequately to know which is coming and when, because each tech path requires such a different response from zerg. All of the tvzs of this type of play ive seen so far where the terran does well are because the zerg was caught in a situation with a bad unit combination. Terrans have a much easier time scouting (and being able to take an economic lead with their walled off 14ccs) in the early/midgame that they can dictate the flow of the game for zerg, and often be able to hard counter zergs unit combination
I was going to make a discussion thread for this, but thankfully, you did, so I don't have to do the research. As of last night, this has definitely become a challenge to game balance, and thus merits a good discussion.
I think the answer for zergs is mostly finesse. Just like the answer for Protoss defense of mutalisk templar-sniping, was "defend better", I think the zerg answer is "attack better". EffOrt, for example, needs to do better with his zerglings, he keeps sending them through minefields in packs, while spreading a group of zerglings out would clear minefields more effieciently. I think zergs can also do better at anticipating this transition, and going back to hydra/muta. Rarely do terran play bio/mech/air and so zergs simply need to abandon hive tech once they're there, and power mass muta/hydra.
Drops are also a huge part of the way zergs need to play this, and that means better overlord usage. Overlords need to be more aggressive at searching for mines, and threatening drops.
Honestly, I think, despite what Sea says, that this strategy can be abused (lack of mobility) and that zergs simply have to get used to it. We'll see if EffOrt and Jaedong are caught by it again in the rest of the Round of 8.
On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote: It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me.
im pretty sure he meant that the zerg would have to outplay the terran mechanically and tactically, because hed be strategically unable to do so. Ofc you could say that all terrans are outplaying zergs these days, because terrans have revolutionized tvz, while zvt is somewhat stagnant strategically.
And fantasy making a big splash in BW again... This isn't impossible to beat, it's just that Zergs have to adapt their Mech strategy a bit to play against this properly. Against normal Mech, Zerg has the advantage of a much better economy, but against a bio -> Mech, Zerg has the advantage of higher tech. Defiler + Lurker is actually a very effective defensive combination against Mech, and more so because the Terran's Vessel count is limited.
Another thing, Vessel count doesn't limit the Zerg's ability to go mass Mutalisks at all, especially on Polaris Rhapsody (the supposedly "imba" map of last night), because of the double gas expansion. Terran will have to get some Goliaths then to counter the Mutalisk threat, and that will pull the Terran's gas in three directions: Tank, Vessel, and Goliath, not to mention the decreased Vulture count.
If there's one other disadvantage that Zerg has in this style of play, it's that their upgrades are completely messed up. Carapace upgrades are essentially useless, and they aren't getting the Missile attack nor Air Carapace upgrades they'll need to push back Mech.
This isn't really "unbeatable", it's just another strategy experiencing a peak in usage, like 3 Hatch Muta -> Quick Hive or Corsair/Reaver. Zergs will soon find a way around it.
That being said, the performance of Jaedong and Effort (especially Effort) last night wasn't too hot. Not really the best decision making I've seen by either player in recent times. I mean Effort sending streams of units in against Mech or Jaedong attacking an established Terran position without Swarm is just ugh.
On August 06 2010 09:39 Mystlord wrote: And fantasy making a big splash in BW again... This isn't impossible to beat, it's just that Zergs have to adapt their Mech strategy a bit to play against this properly. Against normal Mech, Zerg has the advantage of a much better economy, but against a bio -> Mech, Zerg has the advantage of higher tech. Defiler + Lurker is actually a very effective defensive combination against Mech, and more so because the Terran's Vessel count is limited.
Another thing, Vessel count doesn't limit the Zerg's ability to go mass Mutalisks at all, especially on Polaris Rhapsody (the supposedly "imba" map of last night), because of the double gas expansion. Terran will have to get some Goliaths then to counter the Mutalisk threat, and that will pull the Terran's gas in three directions: Tank, Vessel, and Goliath, not to mention the decreased Vulture count.
If there's one other disadvantage that Zerg has in this style of play, it's that their upgrades are completely messed up. Carapace upgrades are essentially useless, and they aren't getting the Missile attack nor Air Carapace upgrades they'll need to push back Mech.
This isn't really "unbeatable", it's just another strategy experiencing a peak in usage, like 3 Hatch Muta -> Quick Hive or Corsair/Reaver. Zergs will soon find a way around it.
That being said, the performance of Jaedong and Effort (especially Effort) last night wasn't too hot. Not really the best decision making I've seen by either player in recent times. I mean Effort sending streams of units in against Mech or Jaedong attacking an established Terran position without Swarm is just ugh.
Regarding that game, Sea actually said he was amazed at how jaedong played and that no Zerg he encountered in practice ever played that well against it
On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote: It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me.
im pretty sure he meant that the zerg would have to outplay the terran mechanically and tactically, because hed be strategically unable to do so. Ofc you could say that all terrans are outplaying zergs these days, because terrans have revolutionized tvz, while zvt is somewhat stagnant strategically.
what do you and others think about this game? not gonna say this revolutionizes zvt, but i think this was a great approach by by.hero to fool with the terran's head. (the head that's so used to standard zvt builds)
the early burrow to delay nat (while making forgg think he was going speedlings), and then faking mutas while instead going lurkers. while forgg is preparing the wrong units to combat units that aren't even made, forgg is safely taking his expansions getting his 3rd/4th gas easily. he then just presses his advantage with an amazing econ advantage while climbing the tech ladder quickly as well as getting his upgrades.
yeah it was a pretty nice surprise build, but i dont think it would work if zergs started doing it alot. Imo hero wasnt put ahead economically at all by the build, but psychologically he took a huge lead. The reason why he got so far ahead is that forgg wasted/delayed his scanners in attempting to take his nat, so he had no idea what hero was doing and was forced to build tons of defense. Hero took advantage of this and went for the least aggressive build possible.
I think if forgg just built a turret there right away instead of using his first scan @ his natural, he would have been in a much better position.
Kwanro vs Flash: Queens with broodling and mass crap. Hyvaa vs Flash: Good positioning with terrain use and using cheap, heavily upgraded low-tech units Effort vs Flash: Extensive use of drop Action games: use of defiler swarms and Plague.
out of all of these, the second and fourth work the best
lol using fantasy and Leta as examples, nice main mech users in BW scene, mainly fantasy as Leta was known more for Wraith usage (that fails as well), imo fantasy is the only terran that can open mechanic against zerg properly, Midas and FlaSh are just copiers •_•
On August 06 2010 13:34 TriniMasta wrote: lol using fantasy and Leta as examples, nice main mech users in BW scene, mainly fantasy as Leta was known more for Wraith usage (that fails as well), imo fantasy is the only terran that can open mechanic against zerg properly, Midas and FlaSh are just copiers •_•
yeah flash really didnt know what he was doing when he 3-0ed jaedong, he just copied fantasy and hoped it would work.
Another thing, Vessel count doesn't limit the Zerg's ability to go mass Mutalisks at all, especially on Polaris Rhapsody (the supposedly "imba" map of last night), because of the double gas expansion. Terran will have to get some Goliaths then to counter the Mutalisk threat, and that will pull the Terran's gas in three directions: Tank, Vessel, and Goliath, not to mention the decreased Vulture count.
i really like this idea because it shows how well thought out flash's play against zero was on polaris. he was able to stay on 3 gas for the entire game and produced a whole chunk of tanks and vultures with minimal goliaths. the turrets did most of the anti-air work and the amount of turrets were probably the reasons why zero didn't go mass mutas to get some guardians because the timing and amount of gas that was needed would compromise on his ground army, making his breaks less successful.. though they weren't in the first place.
- How does feel to win the first game of the Round out of 8? ▲ I thought I would win with ease because I prepared well, but I realized that the #1 ranked Zerg is indeed different. Nothing like this happened during practice, and I won due to Terran's innate fraudulence. [T/N: implying Terran is imbalanced, so it's fraudulent to use in games.] I will not let my guard down because I won today and I really need to prepare for the next match thoroughly.
to anyone who still think the match-up is balanced
I think that considering it takes quite a bit of time doing that late-game mech transition, zergs should learn to find the exact timing and double (possibly triple) expand to get the necessary economic advantage
I feel silly posting in BW strategy because I don't actually play but felt this game should be mentionned too, since it was played before Fantasy vs Zero:
On August 06 2010 17:06 hypercube wrote: I feel silly posting in BW strategy because I don't actually play but felt this game should be mentionned too, since it was played before Fantasy vs Zero:
So we also should mention famous game Fantasy vs Jeadong in SPL great final, when the mech transition (tank banking) was critical factor that won a game. But yeah, while the Fantasy invented that style of play (tell what you want, he is true revolutionist!), that is Flash, who is making this standard. I think that Flash's perfect mechanic is the deciding factor that makes the stuff like that popular. Fantasy himself , while one of the top players, cannot be match in mechanic factor for Flash.
But i think that this game (and Flash vs Calm) are not true bio --> mech, its just heavy tank late game, so its quite different than Fantasy vs Zero game.
So we also should mention famous game Fantasy vs Jeadong in SPL great final, when the mech transition (tank banking) was critical factor that won a game. But yeah, while the Fantasy invented that style of play (tell what you want, he is true revolutionist!), that is Flash, who is making this standard. I think that Flash's perfect mechanic is the deciding factor that makes the stuff like that popular. Fantasy himself , while one of the top players, cannot be match in mechanic factor for Flash.
True, although that transition came even later than in the Flash game and the game was pretty crazy before that too. I guess someone has to come up with the idea for the first time, but it usually takes more than one player to work out all the details.
Isn't there an obvious way to spot the transition? We could suicide an overlord once in a while to see for instance an armory or extra factories being added on. That way we can choose to step in or over the window. T will be weak during his transition; we could expand extra or try to kill him there.
On August 06 2010 18:37 Navane wrote: Isn't there an obvious way to spot the transition? We could suicide an overlord once in a while to see for instance an armory or extra factories being added on. That way we can choose to step in or over the window. T will be weak during his transition; we could expand extra or try to kill him there.
Action relied on defilers and attacking at multiple fronts. Well executed, abusing terran immobility like a pro. I loved the lurkers at the bridges that denied the vultures - killing 5-6 vultures out of every group. More of that please. Perhaps it was also a case of Leta getting greedy. Flash sat on his bases the entire game getting an army and upgrades. Leta wanted more, spreading his army thin giving Action time to counter. Very nice game overall
This game shows how obnoxious Terran tech switches are nowadays.
Also, that taking a terran's potential 4th-5th gas really limits their options and potential in the later game. However, on 2p maps, it can be a lot harder to achieve this.
The problem here is that for the Zerg to even have a chance at beating this, they have to be many steps above their opponent. (JD vs. Midas) If the Zerg is better but not by a large amount, they have no chance. (JD vs. Sea) Sea himself admitted this.
RIP Zergs V.V I'd hate to see Sea/Light winning the Bo5s in the Msl, with the zergs trying half-assed midgame all-in strats (kwanro lawl) or cheese (4pool jd?)
I'd like to hear opinions from other korean players and day9 <3<3<3
I always wondered why terrans keep up m&m production when its capability to deal damage gets significantly weaker and they need to transition to tank and mines anyway.
Can an aggressive lurker/hydra kill terran while he's switching?
Is it possible to exploit mech weakness and backstab like in the case of pure mech?
I still can't believe that after 10 years of professional BW, people are still trying to figure out counters with the slightest timing possible. Now THATS e-Sport!
On August 07 2010 03:15 Frigo wrote: I always wondered why terrans keep up m&m production when its capability to deal damage gets significantly weaker and they need to transition to tank and mines anyway.
Can an aggressive lurker/hydra kill terran while he's switching?
Is it possible to exploit mech weakness and backstab like in the case of pure mech?
Zero vs Fantasy on Fighting Spirit was pretty much like this. Zero faked an expansion and used his zerglings to defuse any mines along the south border. He then dropped cracklings, defilers, and lurkers inside Fantasy's base and pretty much tore most of it down because Fantasy's army was all the way out in the middle maintaining map control.
Of course mileage may vary. Fantasy's valkyries were caught out of position and he didn't really have any anti air defense.
I think zerg have to start being less dependent on mutalisks and start using a proper ground army to maintain map control to prevent terran from setting up key positions where they can slow push into expansions. Flash vs Zero (pure mech this is but I think the idea still stands) is a pretty good example where Flash didn't really care about Zero's paltry mutalisk and hydralisk force because neither would or could stop Flash from setting up barricades around his half of the map.
Does anyone else think that hydralisk into guardians might be the key to thwarting this time of unit composition? I've watched the videos in this thread and I've come to conclusion that there are 3 units that just don't seem to be doing their job against this terran strategy.
1. Ultralisks. They get raped by mines all day and eventually you are just burning money by producing them 2. Mutalisks. Such a small window of opportunity for such little results, most of the times I feel players are just better off saving their money for something else. They become obsolete too fast. 3. Lurkers. Now I understand lurkers have a very important role vs this strategy. Their job is to hold back the medic marine blob and prevent vulture run bys. Once the tanks get to pumping however, lurkers start to become blown to pieces all over the battle field. I'm suggesting building minimal lurkers, as needed, to defend before hive tech.
I feel like hydralisks would compliment the guardians in late game because the hydras can keep the valkyries and science vessels off of them. The key would be to keep the guardians over your hydralisks just like you keep your overlords with your hydras in pvz. This is of course when dealing with a heavy valkyrie/science vessel type composition.
To me, it seems like this would also be more likely to catch the terran off guard because when they see a lack of lurkers and mutas, they will be more inclined to skimp on the vessels and valks which are the good units for countering guardians. Of course lings will be your staple unit for defusing mines and as a mineral sink.
The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway.
Don't ever go guardians against mech. They do not outrange goliaths; they are large units, favourite target type of goliath missiles; they are not as mobile as mutalisks, they can not be used for backstab or even sniping tanks; and they are friggin expensive, that amount of gas is better invested in other units.
I'd say the best response to the switch would be exping, mass muta, backstabbing and sniping tanks and reinforcements, into mass hydra.
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway.
I find it pretty easy to transition to hydraguardian after 2 hatch muta (and not be all-in because I've got 3 bases), but maybe I'm just playing at too low a level.
If Terran is contained, it's pretty easy to set up hydras outside his base at some sort of ramp/choke-ish space and jump him when he comes out. Unlike lurkers, hydras can take down valks/vessels, they're a lot more mobile, and you don't need to spend all your larva on Zerglings to back them up --> extra drones.
As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway.
I find it pretty easy to transition to hydraguardian after 2 hatch muta (and not be all-in because I've got 3 bases), but maybe I'm just playing at too low a level.
If Terran is contained, it's pretty easy to set up hydras outside his base at some sort of ramp/choke-ish space and jump him when he comes out. Unlike lurkers, hydras can take down valks/vessels, they're a lot more mobile, and you don't need to spend all your larva on Zerglings to back them up --> extra drones.
You always get a third gas when you're going guardians off of 2hatch muta. There's almost no reason that you won't be able to take a third during the mutalisk timing. The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you have a third or not because if you go guardians off of 2hatch muta you will have to continuously pump mutalisks in order to go guardians, and your quick hive for the sake of getting guardians makes you extremely fragile as you'll have nothing else (no ground upgrades, no lurkers, no defilers). You're squeezing all your resources into guardians and mutas (or hydras) and so your third is meaningless in creating a stable unit composition and economy for the late game. It basically just becomes a means to get the gas for guardians. There is really just no way that going guardians off of 2hatch muta will not be an all-in. If you don't kill the Terran or inflict some grievous damage to them you will lose the game.
Setting hydras outside of the Terran's base isn't going to do anything compared to lurkers. Lurkers are just far better at making it difficult for the Terran to move through a specific choke. You won't be able to spend your larva on drones either, because unlike lurkers that can hold their ground in relatively small numbers, hydras need to reach a very high mass to be effective. That means you're going to have to spend more, if not all your larva on hydras once you start to produce them. Using lurkerling gives you much more leeway to produce drones.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Go back to SC2, clearly you know nothing of historical Brood War. There have been ebbs and flows in matchups like this for a long, long time, all the way back to when people like Grrr... ExecutorZileas and GARIMTO were head of the pack.
Your attempt at insight is just going to garner poor responses.
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway.
what about guardian mutalisk combo? in the same way goliaths reduce effectiveness of muta micro, guardians can reduce effectiveness of goliath micro, and that mutalisks can sponge the goliath missile attacks
having a cloud of mutalisks and 6-12 guardians, if the goliaths run in to snipe the guardians they'll be taking a whole loud of damage from mutalisk fire and if they run back, they'll be prone to picking off from guardians
anyways, guardians are as mobile as terran mech anyways
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum.
o.o chill down....? lol
Well you did offer one of the most retarded comments in recent memory...what reaction do you expect?
On August 07 2010 22:31 koreasilver wrote: The thing about using guardians is that goliaths actually do quite well against them since the goliath AA attack has ridiculous range, and because guardians take full damage against the goliath air attack, unlike mutalisks that only take half (and even then mutalisks often lose to goliaths). If the Terran has kept a decent tank count then it's hard for the hydras to protect the guardians from goliaths and even vessels because the tank range will melt your hydras if they try to get into the range where they can attack the vessels and goliaths. Hydra guardian can work really well against a standard bio composition but it's rather hard to transition into that unit composition when the game starts off as a normal 1rax cc bio vs 3hatch muta. The transition to hydraguardian off of 2hatch mutas is really all-in as you are squeezing all your resources into an attempted killing attack, so in that case the person who wins is already kinda decided when the hydraguardian attack happens. If you fail to break the Terran right then then you're kinda dead unless you do some grievous damage, then you've kinda won before the whole mech transition happens anyway.
I find it pretty easy to transition to hydraguardian after 2 hatch muta (and not be all-in because I've got 3 bases), but maybe I'm just playing at too low a level.
If Terran is contained, it's pretty easy to set up hydras outside his base at some sort of ramp/choke-ish space and jump him when he comes out. Unlike lurkers, hydras can take down valks/vessels, they're a lot more mobile, and you don't need to spend all your larva on Zerglings to back them up --> extra drones.
You always get a third gas when you're going guardians off of 2hatch muta. There's almost no reason that you won't be able to take a third during the mutalisk timing. The thing is, it doesn't really matter if you have a third or not because if you go guardians off of 2hatch muta you will have to continuously pump mutalisks in order to go guardians, and your quick hive for the sake of getting guardians makes you extremely fragile as you'll have nothing else (no ground upgrades, no lurkers, no defilers). You're squeezing all your resources into guardians and mutas (or hydras) and so your third is meaningless in creating a stable unit composition and economy for the late game. It basically just becomes a means to get the gas for guardians. There is really just no way that going guardians off of 2hatch muta will not be an all-in. If you don't kill the Terran or inflict some grievous damage to them you will lose the game.
Setting hydras outside of the Terran's base isn't going to do anything compared to lurkers. Lurkers are just far better at making it difficult for the Terran to move through a specific choke. You won't be able to spend your larva on drones either, because unlike lurkers that can hold their ground in relatively small numbers, hydras need to reach a very high mass to be effective. That means you're going to have to spend more, if not all your larva on hydras once you start to produce them. Using lurkerling gives you much more leeway to produce drones.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
rofl
I wouldn't suggest completely forgoing lurker tech, however once hive tech is reached I believe the gas being used to produce lurkers might be better off spent on guardians. The reason being is, guardians do a much better job at breaking tanks lines than lurkers do. In fact tanks pretty much completely negate lurkers usefulness after a certain point.
Just take a second to compare tank vs lurker with goliath vs guardian. At least guardians stand a fighting chance against goliaths unlike lurkers getting sieged by tanks which ends up being a stomp fest. Sure mutalisks could do the same role but nine times out of ten you end up suiciding most of your mutas to pick off a few tanks.
As far as forgoing ground upgrades and defiler tech, I feel as if ground upgrades would take the priority over defiler tech. Then you can use your guardians to hold back the terran push the same way lurkers do during lair tech, allowing you to take a 4th and 5th before you invest in heavy defiler tech. Basically you use them to contain the push and create map control while you expo. Hydra, of course being used when you are ready for a heavy offensive.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum.
o.o chill down....? lol
User was banned for this post.
Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down?
Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win.
On August 06 2010 00:20 Firien wrote: terran imba i believe you could drop your way to win. You can drop on top of tanks like in that zero vs flash game(didnt work there, but i believe if he attacked any other position with such mass drops he would have breaked the line . the left side of polaris rhapsody is more wide open) or you could try dropping some in main ( possibly defilers + lurkers under swarm; lurkers are really good if they have time to burrow under swarm, if u could burrow them on the main-->natural ramp you could possibly delay tanks for a while before irradiate comes) i think they could use guardians or just mutalisks to deal with mines and attack only after clearing all the mines up. and you can always DONT ATTACK and wait till they come. On polaris rhapsody there are good siege positions everywhere, but on fighting spirit the moment he would decide to attack with good scouting you could break it.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum.
o.o chill down....? lol
User was banned for this post.
Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down?
Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum.
o.o chill down....? lol
User was banned for this post.
Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down?
Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win.
On August 08 2010 05:40 basx_ble wrote: As bw comes to an end (sc2) its becoming more and more obvious that T has an advantage. No game can be perfectly balanced, but BW was so close that it took 10 years to figure out which race was truly 'op'.
Peddle your goat shit in the SC2 forum.
o.o chill down....? lol
User was banned for this post.
Overreaction much? I understand the rules tell you to respect people with more posts than you, but did he really deserve to get banned for telling someone who was swearing at him to calm down?
Anyway, why aren't mass mutas a viable option? You could prevent your opponent from expanding, and if you make enough, they'll have to send most of their army to come get you(assuming they even have enough Goliaths to stop it) and you can just fly right over to their base while they try to scurry back. It would take advantage of their immobility to the maximum, since mutas are so quick. AND it would make any tanks they may have produced pretty much useless. And couldn't you just keep that up while expanding yourself until they starve? I'm guessing there's a gaping hole in this suggestion because no one else seems to have said this alone is enough to win.
irradiate
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
I came in here to say mass muta's as well. Irradiate is strong of course but surely mutas can reach a critical mass where they are very difficult to kill? Go double spire for ups. Use the extra minerals to push out sunk lines and abuse their immobility even more, use a few guardians defensively over sunks. Maybe even some ensnare on goliaths to slow down firing and retreating? Assuming you're ahead on bases against the Terran you know they have to push out at some point or simply starve, so prehaps playing more of a passive game and simply using the huge muta count to crush pushes as they reach one of your bases is a good idea. Rather than attacking an entrenched position where they can set up silly amounts of turrets.
The best thing is you are turning their advantage of small chokes and ramps against them. Providing you can keep the vessel count low theoretically at least it sounds ok.
On August 05 2010 23:51 SubtleArt wrote: It seems as if the only way for Zerg to win is to outplay the Terran, which doesnt seem fair.
If you outplay your opponent, you win. If your opponent outplays you, they win. Seems perfectly fair to me.
you make a good point. lol
Not exactly, he was implying that if two players are of equal skill, the Zerg won't win. I'm not commenting on the balance myself, just clarifying what he seems to have meant.
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
The post you quoted is almost 2 years old, and the meta game has shifted a little since then. AFAIK massing mutalisks vT is fairly rare nowadays, at least in the recent games I've seen. And yeah, irradiate or valkyries does practically shut even large groups of mutas down unless the T doesn't control properly or the zerg has a ridiculous supply lead.
edit: re-read the post you quoted, and he wasn't even talking about mass muta in pro-games, but at any level. The above still applies though.
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
???
Queens are nullified by valks unless you manage to catch valks out of position like Effort vs Iris. (that error and just overall being too old and slow so he was mining map too late ((read: when he is being attacked)) and not taking the bott right expos when he could have killed him as he should have won that just fine)
And get one muta at a time? I'm pretty sure when massing mutas you don't have to stack them. Especially if you're just trying to damage the opponent's bases.
What if they get some valkyries to complement? Valkyries aren't that slow and once they get 4-5 I think your mutalisks would be doomed. And once they have 4-5 valkyries, scourges can't do that much eitehr anymore?
Note: I'm new to broodwar. Just trying to learn.
+ Do zergs still have trouble versus this strategy nowadays? Or have they figured out the 'optimal' way of dealing with this?
Zergs have figured out how to defeat this strat by using Queens for broodling. In a long drawn out game, late game broodling completely nullify this strategy.
There was a debate about this is the Terran Meeting thread... The only times when queens work is when the opponents has very low goliath count. If the opponent has very low goliath count, mutas be able to do their damage and continue doing damage. Queens however do damage once and wait for energy. So if there is a situation where broodling vs mech is viable, then you would do better to get mutas.
The thing is, T is 'weak' 2 two points IMO: before/while getting the third base and getting the fourth base to transition into mech completely. The first time is weak because while getting a third they have to stop vessel production and slap down 2 more factories + armory to ready the mech transition. The fourth base timing they usually set down way more factories, lift the rax, and only have 3-5 factories going at that time.
The third base denial/delay/counterplay is probably one of the most important things Zergs should consider in late mech play probably...unlike bio, which has a relatively linear strength that can be cut down w/ enough ultras (just like PvZ hanbang push w/ 4 temps + obs), mech is just bad once it hits that critical strength (just like PvZ 3/4 base with archon/temp/reaver). I'm pretty sure you canNOT have more than 3 factory/starport buildings running at the same time on 2 gas without hampering your bio composition or tech...But there's no telling what happens when they get 3/4 gas. And T doesn't even need a 'critical mass' of tanks to start their DMZ of death - just a few tanks in the right places and enough mines laid by the earlier vultures during the 3rd base + 2 factories + armory transition (as we saw in the Flash vs Effort game).
All in all, again just like in ZvP, Z should prioritize denying the third/fourth bases (just like vs pure mech) while being much more 'aggressive' in a sense (AKA minesweeping and harassing and countering much more instead of always moving their army to deal with the T attacking their 4th gas in hopes that ultra tech comes soon). That way the TANKS can't get set up and the mines (hopefully) decrease. The optimal army is probably what the pros just use nowadays...mix of hydra/lurk/ling + defiler...
Drops though aren't really any more effective here than it is in any other matchup. Before transition, the drops are the same as against bio, during the transition it's slightly worse b/c they have vultures + mines, and if you don't use drops vs pure mech, well, can't help you there. Drops should always be an option probably, regardless of whether it's late mech or not.
EDIT: Blech vulture harassment. uhm....have defiler + 2 sunks at each chokepoint/base and swarm the drones?
I'm a very old C Terran scrub from ~2006-2011, and I was not around during the TvZ/ZvT mech switch meta shift. I've been catching up on the TvZ MU by reading several other threads, including a few of Jukado's posts and summaries, on how the meta works from both sides, along with watching a lot of Flash and Larvae FPVODs. I think I'm fairly caught up, but there are two questions that are still lingering in my mind.
From watching top tier players, it seems that after the critical Zerg 3rd gas timing, barring special circumstances, the subsequent timings that are available to the Zerg are completely cut off by spider mines and Science Vessels. This typically leads to the Terran getting an easy 3rd gas, and allows the Zerg to get an easy 4th gas as well. What I'm wondering is if it's possible to time 2-3 Queens after the first defiler + consume upgrade to punish the Terran trying to expand to his 3rd base and 4th bases by infesting the Command Center? With zerglings, scourge, and just one successful infestation, it might be possible to delay the Terran economy long enough for the Zerg to gather his footing... the alternative would be to just keep playing "build the deflier, get irradiated, cast defensive dark swarm" cycle.
Alternatively, one thing that hasn't seemed to change is that Zergs really don't like using overlords to hide the defilers because it's too passive and are still very insistent on being aggressive with their defilers/T3 tech. At this point though, if the Zerg is going to be forced into a defensive position due to some reason, it might become necessary to upgrade Ventral Sacs or Burrow (hotkey + hide the deflier under overlords) earlier to stop the endless waste of gas going towards irradiated defilers and lurkers to allow Zergs to prolong their defensive position, solidify their economy, and give them more options in the mid game.
Overall, from watching a bunch of TvZ videos, I feel like Zergs are tunnel-visioning into "there is only one true way to play this match-up" and are relying too heavily on the old ways, thereby limiting their options in the mid-late game. Getting a couple queens after the defliers and getting earlier Ventral Sacs would expand their options in the mid-late game to at least try to stop the Terran from becoming a 4gas powerhouse with Mech.
First of all, (pro) Zergs are doing fine in the matchup. It's still Terran favored but not that much. Also, the problem is usually the mid game and not the late game.
And Terran is usually defending the expansions with small groups of marines. If they don't you can take it out with anything: mutas, drops etc. Queen would just be a way to kill the CC faster, and is already used by most zergs, not always of course. Not to mention getting queens too early could lead to an easy loss, when you take into account that Zerg defense relies on a small amount of gas units e.g. one defiler +two lurkers
On July 16 2017 21:51 ortseam wrote: First of all, (pro) Zergs are doing fine in the matchup. It's still Terran favored but not that much. Also, the problem is usually the mid game and not the late game.
And Terran is usually defending the expansions with small groups of marines. If they don't you can take it out with anything: mutas, drops etc. Queen would just be a way to kill the CC faster, and is already used by most zergs, not always of course. Not to mention getting queens too early could lead to an easy loss, when you take into account that Zerg defense relies on a small amount of gas units e.g. one defiler +two lurkers
Low level Zergs id say C/C- rank you can usually kill the 3rd with the initial 5rax then starve them out of gas into a win. Thats what I usually do anyway and it works id say 90% of the time. They cant survive without Defilers and making them will eat into an already hurting gas bank while you take a 3rd you can even go SK Terran and when they finally hit the bottom of the barrel gas wise you just a move them down and win
I think you could get away with a lot at C/C- level TvZ. The gameplay revolving around the 3rd gas is already too much for some players to deal with, for both sides. I was just wondering why Zerg players only try to win by smashing the Mine/Tank lines with Ultra/Ling/Defiler after taking a 4th gas, or, with very reactionary/impromptu queen usage. There must be some other options available after the 3rd gas to stop the Terran from expanding.
Well, they don't "only" try this style. JD has been using one recently, with hydra/muta timing just as tank production starts, hydra queen has been used extensively(not very popular lately), muta switch is still part of the zerg lategame, Larva often making very few ultras and winning with defiler/ling/queen, effort tried delaying hive and switching to queens very fast a while ago. I even remember a game (s2 vs ssak on FS), where S2 kinda did what you are suggesting, with few queens early on into hydra timing (3rd snipe).