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Me and my friends play SC mostly 2v2, and I'm probably 30-40% faster then each of them. They'd like me to play 1v2 where I get to choose the map, perhaps even choose race team to play against. I would like your recommendations, especially on map selection. My by far favorite race is Protoss, so keep that in mind (although I can play others if you think it would be better). We had one situation in the past where I practically had to play 1v2, Toss vs Toss+Zerg, and I held my ground pretty well, but couldn't quite make it. It wasn't a big (land) map, and the natural was difficult to defend, with a big opening. Just one final remark: I may know some things about SC mechanics, like what is good vs what, but they sometimes lack that. They just play for fun and don't bother with math and alike. A few notes on them: When Zerg, he always goes 9 Pool, 6 lings attack, and then techs to Lurkers, looking is there detection, if yes, he just sits just out. He never uses Mutas, he may switch a bit to Hydras, but not plentiful, he builds slow and has loads of resources all the time, and finally builds a lot of Ultras and Plague Defilers. Never uses Swarm. When Protoss, it is 2xGateway, imo likely, or FE. Then some Goons and Zeals, probably switch to Carriers and Corsairs late game, Recall likely. (almost surely one will pick Toss) When Terran, and this is a least likely pick, never MnM, always Tanks, probably some drop. BCs quite possible, as are sneak Wraiths. Vultures never used, no mines. Science Vessels just for detection, too slow with APM to use EMP. So I expect PP or PZ, very maybe PT. PZ most likely, but I choose eventually.
As for my abilities... My macro is far better then theirs, but I don't fell comfortable sacrificing it for micro on faster and fastest game speed. Therefore I rarely use Storm, but can manage Stasis Arbiters. My apm is usually 80, their is 40-50.
If it is a land based map I expect 2 gate 6 lings push. If it doesn't work, expand and skirmishes there and then. If it is an island map, probably air asap, drop perhaps one shuttle with 2 tenks on ledge, or 4 zeals, something like that.
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United States9627 Posts
Choose PZ first. In order to defend, go for like a 9 10 gate and wall your ramp. Z gets lings out fast to put pressure while p will probs build up ground army. after you have about 4-5 zeals to protect the ramp, transition into a more goon heavy build since your friend goes lurkers. if P just sits back after Z fails at pressuring you, move out to your nat and expand + 3-4 cannons. remember, they have 16 minerals for your 8, so expand whenever possible. continue to add gates and when he gets the lurks, obs.
another KEY think to do in a 1v2 situation, since your macro is good, this should work. when you attack one player, the other will probs help. as soon as the helping partner is out of position, take your reinforcements (your macroed units at your base) and attack the helping partners base. you can cause him to panic and may do considerable damage.
im just a D/D+ toss so dont completely trust me. look for higher skilled players following behind me for better advice.
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I'd play on something like God's Garden with a safe expansion and one ramp to defend both your bases. It also opens up opportunities for you to drop their expo (or DTs/vults/lurkers in their nat then walk in to the main if they aren't smart enough to expo themselves) during the mid game.
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Ok, nice advice with the diversion, but I forgot one thing: Protoss will likely build plenty Cannons. If Zerg, he will build a line of Sunkens to his Ramp He just loves doing that. So it is difficult to break in early. I expand pretty fast, and I somehow thought that I have a best chance overexpanding them, starve them out in a long game. Map recommendations?
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I looked at God's Garden, I have a feel if they spawn opposite sides I will not be able to take the unclaimed player position because it is too far and in the middle of them...
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On May 20 2011 10:27 Rainalcar wrote:Ok, nice advice with the diversion, but I forgot one thing: Protoss will likely build plenty Cannons. If Zerg, he will build a line of Sunkens to his Ramp He just loves doing that. So it is difficult to break in early. I expand pretty fast, and I somehow thought that I have a best chance overexpanding them, starve them out in a long game. Map recommendations?
Good. I recommend God's Garden or any map where you can take an expansion in your back, go 2gate zealots then add a forge, put 1-2 cannons on your ramp while expanding to your back expo. Add goons and zealot leg speed, get an observer out, take your front natural. Then you can mass carrier/sair (sairs to protect from scourge) and upgrade from 2 cy cores. Take expansions in the other corner since it's unlikely they'll ever scout there and simply overwhelm with gigantic air force
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United States9627 Posts
err... if they are defending up... then i recommend going reaver drops as long as they dont have sunkens IN their main like at the minerals line. go that and cripple econ, then pure macro up and roll over them.
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On May 20 2011 11:08 FlaShFTW wrote: err... if they are defending up... then i recommend going reaver drops as long as they dont have sunkens IN their main like at the minerals line. go that and cripple econ, then pure macro up and roll over them.
Oh they will have their mineral lines all cannoned and sunkened up if these are like the noobs I've played before. Anyway his apm is only 80 and he has said he doesn't feel comfortable with micro-intensive units so if his goal is to win (not to get better) I would shy away from reavers
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Katrina!! vs TT Aztec vs TT Tau Cross vs TT
... lol
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i've played many 1v2's... its really easy to beat 2 noobs, even if you yourself arnt that much better. Just keep in mind that they are scared of you and that your micro and multitasking intimidates the crap out of them.
You can take advantage of there inexperience by being aggressive at the wrong times.. feign like u can destroy there base or army with your inferior unit count to make them retreat or overly make static defense... camp units outside there base partially in sight range and keep spam moving them around to give them the impression that you have total map control and the ability to instantly react and thrash any push they attempt... expand recklessly as if you can easily defend ur bases... they have 0 game sense and will just assume that you know what your doing and that they have no chance to destroy ur forces.
Number 1 rule is to not turtle... that will give them confidence to atk and expand.
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On May 20 2011 12:14 Taekwon wrote: Katrina!! vs TT Aztec vs TT Tau Cross vs TT
... lol
You forgot Longinus. And I don't think PvT is strong enough on those maps to win a 1v2. Also, what happens if they both BBS? O_O
Also, to be honest, I don't think the difference in 80 apm and 50 apm is that great. At that level it's mostly all about actually knowing what to do and then executing it properly.
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PvTT is probably the easiest. Go 2 gate, defensively, then put zealots on your ramp. Take a hidden expo, they won't look for it, but put a pylon by the ramp of it just to be safe. I did this on python. Tech up to dark templar to drive them out of your ramp. Your opponents probably won't have scan. Then use your macro to just mass goons and roll over your friends.
I've done this before, albeit I'm a bit faster than you and I was probably facing worse players, but I have experienced many 1v2 and 1v3 like situations.
3v3 BGH Ally: "Hey, I'm gonna go tech, you hold our opponents off until I get 12 carriers mmk?" Me: "You're still going to build units before then though right?" Ally: "Yeah, I'll still get 16 probes and 20 cannons"
edit: you can also try to cheese one of them, however it'd be a bit risky if the other player counters you eg: you said one of your opponents always makes 6 lings after pool. This probably won't happen vs 2 T or 2 40 apm players but it is a risk.
The safest thing I can think of is to defend the ramp and not go for a hidden expo, just get an early in base nexus for more probes. This is easy to do on BGH since there are 2 gas geisers and 13 mineral chunks in the main.
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TvT won't happen, I don't want to press them with something like that. You can just cunt it will be PvPZ, so I still need map recommendations beside God's Garden. We are not noobs, we played >200 games, we have a sense for the game, it's just that we, they especially, play really relaxed and easy. It's not that they will build 20 cannons/sunkens and turtle. They won't, they will build plenty cannons in mineral line and choke, but will try to expand soon, and combine armies for skirmishes. They won't send 70 lings in a line to 20MnM on choke
I found one interesting island map, Allied Fortress. How would you play this map if P vs PZ? AFAI can see, two options exist: 1. expo first, build gateways when able, constant stream of zeals, build cannons for air protection, tech straight to recall, drop 24 zeals on their continent (or wait for 2nd arbiter to get energy to have 48 zeals). Very gas intensive (yes, really, obs are must, upgrades too), so dragoons are hard to squeeze in. If they have decent defenses they could defend, since there are two of them and if they went for air, I don't think I will be able to catch up. So that attack has to cripple them severely. 2. stargate 1st, scouts and sairs, but again Obs and Shuttle for island expo. Especially scouts, I think Toss will go ~7 sairs (which I can handle with cannons) and straight to carriers, while zerg will be slow to get mutas. I would also try to take one of the middle islands asap and not expand on the shore of my continent, but very late in the game. Issue here is that it is hard to make any ground units - very mineral intensive, so a double drop could be really difficult to stop. I really hold that the middle is key for map control and resource advantage in a prolonged game. Opinions? Or similiar maps?
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Central Plains man. The benchmark protoss imba map, gotta love it Should even be exploitable in such a manner in 1v2
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Russian Federation905 Posts
Whats that 3 player island map? then you go P v ZZ. lol
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Central Plains looks nice How do I deal with the eggs, any tips on strategy?
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On May 20 2011 23:03 sovetskysoyuz wrote: Whats that 3 player island map? then you go P v ZZ. lol
Ha ha, that would be nice, Sair mania If you can remember what it is called, let me know.
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If your friends are really bad you can do 10/12 gateway and rush each player with 1 zeal and probe sending your first zeal out to the gosuer newbie.
After attacking a newb with a zeal off a 10 gate (or 12 gate) you should basically have it won. Get two bases when you can (if they start off with just D, add your 2nd nexus and just macro like a protoss) then roll out whenever you want.
I used to 1v2 my newb friends on LT so if I could do it there, you can do it on any map that isn't lost temple.
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play on iron curtain, you are gonna either kill one of them easily (if one of them spawn at same side of you) or you can macro and kill them lader
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that basically ruins the point of a newbie 2v1 though
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On May 20 2011 12:14 Taekwon wrote: Katrina!! vs TT Aztec vs TT Tau Cross vs TT
... lol I see what you did there =D (only on Katrina though D I would choose a map where they cannot BOTH get easy thirds, something similar to the design of Python.
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On May 21 2011 08:43 iTzAnglory wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2011 12:14 Taekwon wrote: Katrina!! vs TT Aztec vs TT Tau Cross vs TT
... lol I see what you did there =D (only on Katrina though D I would choose a map where they cannot BOTH get easy thirds, something similar to the design of Python.
I doubt these players will ever get thirds. MAYBE a second AFTER their main mines out.
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On May 20 2011 23:03 sovetskysoyuz wrote: Whats that 3 player island map? then you go P v ZZ. lol
Plasmaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Easy three bases if they don't know the map well and don't know how to walk probes through eggs.
Also, if you don't like God's Garden, consider Triathlon? It's only 3 player, though, so they'll know where you are, and there's also no empty player's bases to take.
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United States9627 Posts
you know a good 1v2 air map? u-boat xD rush to carriers!!!
but i think a decent map to hold them off would be crosshairs or some desert map. the one where a player did a hallucination double recall one. i think id be a good map.
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Imo terran is the best to play 2v1. You need to have cost effective multi usage units and terran fits it well. You could play on python and go 2 fact vul, and depending how much better you are you could kill both. If not you should be able to cripped/kill at least 1 and then you can use mines to contain the other and adjust accordingly.
Depending on what races your opponents are you could also do a 1 fact 2 port do a vul drop transition in to wraiths and get the island easy.
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I think protoss fares better in 1v2 due to better mobility, plus you always have the option of cheesing one of them with DT/reavers and killing them quickly. With terran you can roll them in late game but its hard to get there.
Also the moment you beat them I bet they won't let you pick map and/or races anymore
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i feel like there are 2 general options. one is to go all-in and eliminate one player, while hoping that your superior skill will allow you to win the game against the remaining player in the long run. The other is to rely on your superior macro and game sense to outplay both of them combined into the long game. However, if they figure out that they can both do a fast expansion build safely, you will get fucked unless you vastly outplay both of them. I am in the same situation because I am ~C terran, and when my roommates want to play sc (they are like D), it usually ends up being a 2v1 against me. We agree that they can't both cheese me at the same time cuz im obviously gonna lose to double 4 pool or some gay shit like that, so they both go 12 hatch/12 nexus at the same time.... and their combined early forces are enough to prevent me from punishing either of them (ie, id normally get away with a bunker rush to deal with 12 nex in 1v1, but when you have zerg come with 6 lings to help it gets fucked). From my experience, the most successful method ive had in dealing with 2v1's is to get myself an economic advantage that a noob wouldnt be able to deal with... ie on python, i will take a very fast 3rd at the island with a bunker and sim city and 1-2 sieged tanks behind the sim city. So sneak expo or expo in an extra secure location.... cut whatever corners you can to get yourself a super fast economy by abusing the lack of game sense from newer players. and another thing that is also abusable against players with weaker mechanics is high apm. drop-oriented harass play. if they do not know build orders well enough to know when to be expecting a reaver drop or something, you can severely cripple one person's econ without much unit investment (ie, it doesnt require you to commit a full-force attack.... a single shuttle's worth of units is doing all the damage while the rest of your units are prepared to deal with possible all-in attacks at your front or counters). Abuse terrain or little tricks (ie, lost temple drops on the cliff) that noobs would not know about. I guess that would make othello a possibly good choice, but idk maps that well.
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Are they actually somewhat decent / are you not that great? A newbie 2v1 should be fairly straightforward to win, you can win even with just 2 base turtle into carriers/BCs most of the time. Pick a map with easily defendable 3rd (island is helpful), do some harass (or not, since they'll make tons of static d for no reason anyway) and then roll them.
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On May 21 2011 08:49 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2011 08:43 iTzAnglory wrote:On May 20 2011 12:14 Taekwon wrote: Katrina!! vs TT Aztec vs TT Tau Cross vs TT
... lol I see what you did there =D (only on Katrina though D I would choose a map where they cannot BOTH get easy thirds, something similar to the design of Python. I doubt these players will ever get thirds. MAYBE a second AFTER their main mines out.
They will get a second while having the main on half maybe.
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You underestimate them mostly. They are not that bad. If I go Carriers, I will have like 7 when he has 4, but the other guy will have lots of hydras i.e. That sort of difference I'm talking about.
How do I get a Probe through the eggs? That looks like a really nice map, Plasma.
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You'll have vision of a mineral patch on the other side so just right click it
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Thank you all, you have been very helpful. Now I can give it a few tries .
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Well, plasma was a good map, I managed to score some victories PvPT. Could you now advise some map good for zerg in ZvPT or ZvPP? The latter will surely be mass zeals. More recommendations are welcome.
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United States9627 Posts
same old maps for safe naturals. make a hatchery at the choke and then make sunkens there. transition into mass hydras.
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i doubt i will be able to go hatch 1t for i will surely get rushed hard. I wil need the 9 pool. It will still be super hard and i need some map where i can place sunkens on chokke from 1st hatch. Indeed a safe expo too, and, if i survive the start, i plan to go mutas cause there not good vs them, try to take one out or almost, and pair it with cracklings.
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The fortress is also good, because it's impenetrable by ground. Since your friend doesn't go mutas, you won't even need to make that many turrets. One thing you can try is turtling as Terran vs TZ, then go 2 port wraith. It's difficult for low level players to stop cloaked wraiths, especially as Terran.
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On February 12 2012 11:17 Rainalcar wrote: i doubt i will be able to go hatch 1t for i will surely get rushed hard. I wil need the 9 pool. It will still be super hard and i need some map where i can place sunkens on chokke from 1st hatch. Indeed a safe expo too, and, if i survive the start, i plan to go mutas cause there not good vs them, try to take one out or almost, and pair it with cracklings. The problem with 9 pool in 1v2 is that they have double the zealot production. If that's all they do then you're dead, because you can't get enough lings to beat their zealots without them doing something majorly wrong with their micro like not attack moving, or majorly wrong with their macro which is self-explanatory. Going for that 12 hatch and then being ready to defend it with your life is really your best chance. Put up some early sunkens too.
And try not to die. =P
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PvTT on aztec. Open dt expand and then transition to carriers.
If they are bad players like you said they are rely on: 1. Late detection. Gain map control with dts and hopefully outright kill one of them. 2. No micro vs carriers. Use these to deal the finishing blow. 3. Cannons vs bio. I'm guessing since they are noobish they might go bio heavy instead of mech. Which means cannons will get you far, just throw in a few storms for good measure.
Edit: Nevermind I read you say they rarely mnm. Well since they dont like mines or vultures go mass speedlot and just roll any tank push they try.
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why dont you just use reavers to finish them before carriers/bc?
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Just go 9Hatch in your nat and get mass sunks as fast as possible. No other chance I see to stand against double 2Gate as Zerg.
If you stay alive, get Mutas and go for some sick harrass. With your superior micro you should kill TONS of probes.
I guess if you stay alive in the beginning it is really easy to win against PP with either Mutas or Lurkers.
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You think 9 hatch is quick enough to stop 2x2 gate? And later, if they press zeals, or, likely to happen, cannon contain plus tanks later? So i should go 9 hatch 8 pool, and get 12 lings asap?
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Thx for advices but I really need obly zvpt or zvpp and map recommendations for it.
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There is no strategy in 1v2 that is always viable. If they are greedy or careless you might win, but normally you don't really stand a chance. I would go speedlings with burrow from 1 base.
Edit: I'd 12 pool.
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That's ok. I just need map recommendations. I heard Colosseum is good for zerg, any other?
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United States9627 Posts
On February 13 2012 20:34 Rainalcar wrote: That's ok. I just need map recommendations. I heard Colosseum is good for zerg, any other? oh yeah colloseum is great for zerg! what about that one map where you have a main with like 9001 mineral patches and sunken at the choke? that's a good map. 10 hatch/9 hatch is the way to go. 2 gate zeal rush x2 won't be enough. maybe even good old overpool -> 9001 sunkens at ur front (collosuem or map i just said)
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On February 14 2012 07:12 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 20:34 Rainalcar wrote: That's ok. I just need map recommendations. I heard Colosseum is good for zerg, any other? oh yeah colloseum is great for zerg! what about that one map where you have a main with like 9001 mineral patches and sunken at the choke? that's a good map. 10 hatch/9 hatch is the way to go. 2 gate zeal rush x2 won't be enough. maybe even good old overpool -> 9001 sunkens at ur front (collosuem or map i just said) Colo is the map with the sunken at the choke. =P
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Why would you ever play as Zerg in a 1v2.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On February 14 2012 07:12 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 20:34 Rainalcar wrote: That's ok. I just need map recommendations. I heard Colosseum is good for zerg, any other? oh yeah colloseum is great for zerg! what about that one map where you have a main with like 9001 mineral patches and sunken at the choke? that's a good map. 10 hatch/9 hatch is the way to go. 2 gate zeal rush x2 won't be enough. maybe even good old overpool -> 9001 sunkens at ur front (collosuem or map i just said)
Baekmagoji? That's only a 2 player map though.
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You said it I need maps for >2 players
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i would choose a map with island, and go fast drop into double expand - if you are significantly better than either of them, you can pretty much knock one guy out with an aggressive drop build while playing defensively at home. this is with terran or toss in mind.
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I'd rather have at least a semi island map. Island mapvkills the point in 1v2 in a way.
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r-point, thats the biggest macro map ever made in starcraft i know xD whoud be fine
if you prefere somethink where skill is required play on outsider or a semi island map, a pure island will be too hard for 1v2 if they decent.
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