I've been playing Brood War recently, and I've been struggling with the way I play. I've been playing based solely off of what I've learned from my games. So uh, if you guys do end up watching the replay, enjoy the train wreck of a game x)
I am absolutely clueless as to attacking a Terran who litters the map with spider mines (I know I did not get observers. But is there any other way of keeping the spider mine count low?). The Terran camped in his base with a good amount of tanks, and I tried to run my Zealots past the tanks to make them deal splash damage. I tried storming to some extent, but I just kept dying to the tanks.
Other than scouting better, what other way am I supposed to deal with this type of Terran? He was active with a handful of Vultures while planting spider mines and denying me of a third. I feel as though I had a low gateway count and probably not the right tech.
Can I get any help in general? Any tips are welcome.
I'm a D level Protoss, so please don't recommend me to do some micro that might require busting my nuts. ;A;
Build obbies. They allow you to clear mines, see the terran base, keep track of their army movement and check their expo timings. Some people consider it the most important unit in the pvt matchup.
Once you have obbies, if they are just camped in their base, then you have control of the rest of the map. With obbies and goons you can clear mines and take expos of your own.
Generally if your asking how, as a protoss, how to break their turtle in their base, you are doing it the wrong way.
PvT is a macro matchup, you need to be patient. The terran gets to dictate the pace of the game as you can't cost effectively attack them until they decide to move out. But if they turtle for too long eventually you will take the map and have like 30 gates. Then once they move out you just smash your army into theirs, you will lose, but you will instantly have a new army from your gates. You repeat this until their army is dead, they will run out of minerals and you will eventually win.
Basically at low levels, if the terran doesn't push out just keep the map clear of mines with goons and obbies, then secure expos, add gates, get upgrades and tech for storm and arbies.
Eventually they will have to move out then you try to set up a flank and take out their army. If they never move out, just get to like a 5 base to 2 advantage and keep recalling them until they mine out just defending recalls.
At D level it is a good idea to always aim to starve the terran to death, this will rarely happen in actuality, as they will move out eventually, you smash their army and they will gg. But if they are playing overdefensively you should just let them.
Going to do a list of shit you could improve while watching this
*your gas was reallly late (on 13) *going pylon before your core is a waste as most likely the terran will be walling and the zealots will be useless *your opening build order in general could use some ironing out, but its not really a massive deal at this level i guess, but its something easy to fix (look up 1 gate fe on liquipedia) *going 3 gate goon/speedlot isn't really a stable pvt build. most terrans will camp in their base until they move out with a 5-6 fac or expand to their third. the chances of a no obs speedlot bust are possible, sure, but its pretty much cheese. If you're going for a big 2 base timing, you'd be better off cutting probes and getting ~8 gates up and going allin *normally go robo after 2 gates in every pvt, really reduces any headaches and allows you to take map control with your goons, which in turn reduces the mine count on the map and deters harass. *95% of the time you'll never bust a terrans natural without a shuttle. if you're doing a 2 base timing, get a shuttle. *you dont need to finish leg speed so early. it finished when u had 1 zealot, make it finish when u have 12+ zealots. *getting a third up without a robo is suicide. dont do this (unless you're jangbi) *you're not teching at all or getting a signifcant amount of gates. the chance that any of your attacks will succeed is minimal because of this. *dont take your whole army to kill some vultures. instead send a couple of goons to your third as you make it and block the non-walled ramp. completely denies harass. make a pylon wall with a small gap for your natural. if you move out leave 2 goons behind to plug this gap and stop vultures killing all your shit *at the 10 minute mark in this replay you've pretty much already lost. you have no tech, no obs. you cant move out because of mines, you cant do recalls, or reaver drops, or stuff like that. you're completely powerless and the terran is taking his third without a worry in the world. he can continue to mine up the map and crush any push you have because it'll be half strength by the time it reaches him.seriously, get obs *your attack at 11.30 failed because of no obs. if you had obs what you do is keep your goons in front while you're not in tank range. kill all the mines you can, then flood zealots in, click them behind the tanks and attack once they're all in range. *your gateway placfement prevents goons from building from one gateway, try not to block them off entirely. *not going to watch the rest. he makes mines, you have no obs.
On October 11 2011 11:47 Kiante wrote: Going to do a list of shit you could improve while watching this
*your gas was reallly late (on 13) *going pylon before your core is a waste as most likely the terran will be walling and the zealots will be useless *your opening build order in general could use some ironing out, but its not really a massive deal at this level i guess, but its something easy to fix (look up 1 gate fe on liquipedia) *going 3 gate goon/speedlot isn't really a stable pvt build. most terrans will camp in their base until they move out with a 5-6 fac or expand to their third. the chances of a no obs speedlot bust are possible, sure, but its pretty much cheese. If you're going for a big 2 base timing, you'd be better off cutting probes and getting ~8 gates up and going allin *normally go robo after 2 gates in every pvt, really reduces any headaches and allows you to take map control with your goons, which in turn reduces the mine count on the map and deters harass. *95% of the time you'll never bust a terrans natural without a shuttle. if you're doing a 2 base timing, get a shuttle. *you dont need to finish leg speed so early. it finished when u had 1 zealot, make it finish when u have 12+ zealots. *getting a third up without a robo is suicide. dont do this (unless you're jangbi) *you're not teching at all or getting a signifcant amount of gates. the chance that any of your attacks will succeed is minimal because of this. *dont take your whole army to kill some vultures. instead send a couple of goons to your third as you make it and block the non-walled ramp. completely denies harass. make a pylon wall with a small gap for your natural. if you move out leave 2 goons behind to plug this gap and stop vultures killing all your shit *at the 10 minute mark in this replay you've pretty much already lost. you have no tech, no obs. you cant move out because of mines, you cant do recalls, or reaver drops, or stuff like that. you're completely powerless and the terran is taking his third without a worry in the world. he can continue to mine up the map and crush any push you have because it'll be half strength by the time it reaches him.seriously, get obs *your attack at 11.30 failed because of no obs. if you had obs what you do is keep your goons in front while you're not in tank range. kill all the mines you can, then flood zealots in, click them behind the tanks and attack once they're all in range. *your gateway placfement prevents goons from building from one gateway, try not to block them off entirely. *not going to watch the rest. he makes mines, you have no obs.
TLDR: get obs.
in every
single pvt you ever play. ever
You're a godsend.
How many gateways am I supposed to have on two bases? Are arbiters the preferred tech for PvT over Carriers? I've used Carriers in a few of my games, but they seem really gimmicky. Stasis field's AoE seems really small for me, unless I'm doing it wrong.
I'm a wannabe protoss and I know how frustrating it is to play a good terran who turtles, plants mines everywhere, and just doesn't let you do anything. IMO in this situation you should expand as fast as you can, get as many gateways as you can (even at your expansions), keep up with macro, try to harass his economy (storm/dt drop), tech to arbiter or carrier, and just play "sauron style" (as Day9 once said, "get a lot of sh!t"). Usually the best way to deal with a turtling player (doesn't matter the race) is to out-expand him. G L
the thing is, with arbiters vs carriers, either is really strong, just depends on the situation... carriers do require a bit of micro too
btw you should decide to invest in carriers if you see he has weak anti-air (not many turrets or goliaths). The whole point of carriers is to make the terran get goliaths which makes his ground army weaker (so a nice strategy is to get a few carriers to trick him into getting a lot of goliaths then just overpowering him with your zeal/goon/ht/arbiter army
stasis field is designed to target really clumped tanks. but usually any 1 stasis field won't usually freeze more than 3 or (if you're lucky) 4 tanks. the key is to just have a lot of arbiters i guess for multiple stasis fields. And also don't forget to try to recall into his base(s) especially his main base where he has most of his factories...to constantly keep him on his toes Recall is difficult to pull off, but it's really strong indeed.
It's also a good idea to keep up with upgrades Vultures are annoying, but the best way to deal with them not killing your probes is just making 2 cannons at every base in ur mineral line obviously make more if hes attacking you with like 20 vultures
the whole point of getting observers is so you can have more map control than him. constantly keep clearing his mines and he'll have no vision and will just be wasting his mines. keep making observers, it will give you as much recon as you need to monitor his army, upgrades, expos, etc. I know a lot of protoss don't get observer speed, but I always get it for some odd reason
Usually carriers are on good with maps with lots of cliffs, not out in the open, since they are slow and expensive. If the map is open, it's much easier for golaiths to pick them off. However, if a terran is completely starved out but still turtling hard, carriers can be a good choice simply since the terran won't be able to afford golaiths.
On October 11 2011 11:47 Kiante wrote: Going to do a list of shit you could improve while watching this
*your gas was reallly late (on 13) *going pylon before your core is a waste as most likely the terran will be walling and the zealots will be useless *your opening build order in general could use some ironing out, but its not really a massive deal at this level i guess, but its something easy to fix (look up 1 gate fe on liquipedia) *going 3 gate goon/speedlot isn't really a stable pvt build. most terrans will camp in their base until they move out with a 5-6 fac or expand to their third. the chances of a no obs speedlot bust are possible, sure, but its pretty much cheese. If you're going for a big 2 base timing, you'd be better off cutting probes and getting ~8 gates up and going allin *normally go robo after 2 gates in every pvt, really reduces any headaches and allows you to take map control with your goons, which in turn reduces the mine count on the map and deters harass. *95% of the time you'll never bust a terrans natural without a shuttle. if you're doing a 2 base timing, get a shuttle. *you dont need to finish leg speed so early. it finished when u had 1 zealot, make it finish when u have 12+ zealots. *getting a third up without a robo is suicide. dont do this (unless you're jangbi) *you're not teching at all or getting a signifcant amount of gates. the chance that any of your attacks will succeed is minimal because of this. *dont take your whole army to kill some vultures. instead send a couple of goons to your third as you make it and block the non-walled ramp. completely denies harass. make a pylon wall with a small gap for your natural. if you move out leave 2 goons behind to plug this gap and stop vultures killing all your shit *at the 10 minute mark in this replay you've pretty much already lost. you have no tech, no obs. you cant move out because of mines, you cant do recalls, or reaver drops, or stuff like that. you're completely powerless and the terran is taking his third without a worry in the world. he can continue to mine up the map and crush any push you have because it'll be half strength by the time it reaches him.seriously, get obs *your attack at 11.30 failed because of no obs. if you had obs what you do is keep your goons in front while you're not in tank range. kill all the mines you can, then flood zealots in, click them behind the tanks and attack once they're all in range. *your gateway placfement prevents goons from building from one gateway, try not to block them off entirely. *not going to watch the rest. he makes mines, you have no obs.
TLDR: get obs.
in every
single pvt you ever play. ever
You're a godsend.
How many gateways am I supposed to have on two bases? Are arbiters the preferred tech for PvT over Carriers? I've used Carriers in a few of my games, but they seem really gimmicky. Stasis field's AoE seems really small for me, unless I'm doing it wrong.
Gateway number on 2 base tends to depend on situation, primarily how quickly you want to take your third. In theory you can support up to 8 gates, but in practice noone gets over 6 gates before taking a third. It can be anywhere between 2 and 6 gates (occasionally 1 if they are playing risky or responding to something strange terran is doing).
Arbiters have now become the standard lategame tech for PvT on most maps you are likely to play. On most maps carriers are indeed a bit gimmicky, you really only want to get them if you can get a few out before terran even realise you have gone carriers, and catch them with their pants down. The main problem is that they are really bad fighting units for their supply cost
On October 11 2011 12:16 keiraknightlee wrote: btw you should decide to invest in carriers if you see he has weak anti-air (not many turrets or goliaths). The whole point of carriers is to make the terran get goliaths which makes his ground army weaker (so a nice strategy is to get a few carriers to trick him into getting a lot of goliaths then just overpowering him with your zeal/goon/ht/arbiter army
While that sentiment sounds reasonable at first glance, and indeed used to have the predominant consensus, it is now a bit outdated.
The problem being, that everyone has gotten so much better at scouting, that it is rare you get to go carriers against a terran without them knowing it beforehand. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that carriers are far less supply cost efficient vs everything than golies are vs ground, to the extent that if terran is prepared for carriers and your economic situation being relatively equal, then your pathetically small ground army that is being limited by the supply you have sunk into carriers is still going to get completely smashed by their 'inefficient' golie heavy army anyway.
I seriously rage at the number of times that good P's have thrown away won games *cough*Bisu*cough* by pointlessly switching to carriers after a small midgame advantage and constructing a supplycapped army that is almost entirely incapable of fighting the terran one.
Though Kiante covered it pretty nicely, I'll just give some general tips for mines in pvt that you might find useful.
Mines, how the fuck do I deal with them? I'd like to split mines into two categories: 'Map control/delay mines' and 'push mines'. You don't deal with them the same way, but it's two simple concepts: Map control/delay mines - these are the mines you find around the map that kill your army when you don't bring an obs (you've probably stumbled upon these a few times too many - like everyone). These are also the mines the terran use with vulture drops (drop vultures in base -> mine up entrance -> kill probes). The way you deal with these is simply goons+obs. Of course this is easier said that done, but that's really the gist. Always have an obs with your goons and work on controlling them together so you don't take losses. An important thing to notice is that goons rape vultures in ANY sitution UNLESS you kill yourself on mines - so the mines gotta be your focus when engaging. Clearing mines around the map is mainly a question about multitasking. If your multitask is good enough, you should be able to obtain complete map control until the terran pushes out. This transitions perfectly in the other 'type' of mines I wanna talk about: 'The push mines'. These are the mines terrans will place in front of their tanks with the sole purpose of killing your zealots before they reach his tanks. Here it's important to note that tank rape goons. Don't engage tanks without zealots! So how do you deal with that. This is not as simple as the map control mines and takes a lot more ingame experience to understand and get right. Mainly because there is not just one right way, and it depends on your style and army composition. What I like to do is lead with a few zealots to eliminate as many mines as possible before really engaging the terran push. Of course it can also be done in cuter ways like shuttle or dt play - or even combining them. You might be able to do something like this if you're lucky:
But as I said, it takes ingame experience to learn how to engage a terran push because there are soooo many variables!
you can open up with nexus (big advantage). Usually they respond with one of the following: 1. bunker rush + scvs + marines + rally vulture 2. vulture harass + drop 3. expand
Vs 1 u defend with zealots probes and dragoon. if he brings way too many scvs u can save the probes to main, abandon expand and still have big advantage. Vs 2 you need some anticipation and good building placement for blocking vultures. Vs 3 you are ahead in economy
just make sure to do it as safe as possible: 8 pylon, 13 nexus, 13 gate, 14 pylon, 15 gas, 15 zeal then core and 2nd gate. transfer no more than 3-4 probes and make probes only when u spare minerals (units is priority 1 and teching is 2 for the start)
On October 11 2011 13:23 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: The problem is exacerbated by the fact that carriers are far less supply cost efficient vs everything than golies are vs ground, to the extent that if terran is prepared for carriers and your economic situation being relatively equal, then your pathetically small ground army that is being limited by the supply you have sunk into carriers is still going to get completely smashed by their 'inefficient' golie heavy army anyway.
Ive always felt its the other way around, 6-8 carriers forcing terran to spend so much gas and supply on goliaths that his ground army is neither tank nor vult heavy, thus being weak against mass zealots and storms. And that its not as much as a huge investment that will kill terran or else youre screwed, as something that you use to control opponents army composition and make sure you wont be facing 30x 3/3 tanks.
Also:
On October 11 2011 11:43 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote: The terran gets to dictate the pace of the game as you can't cost effectively attack them until they decide to move out.
If terran decides to not move out I will simply take whatever base is left on map, get 50 gates and 10 stargate carrier switch before first shot fired.
On October 12 2011 04:56 nV[MB] wrote: Ive always felt its the other way around, 6-8 carriers forcing terran to spend so much gas and supply on goliaths that his ground army is neither tank nor vult heavy, thus being weak against mass zealots and storms. And that its not as much as a huge investment that will kill terran or else youre screwed, as something that you use to control opponents army composition and make sure you wont be facing 30x 3/3 tanks.
Well 6 carriers is 36 supply, and 1 ctrl groups of golies are going to completely maul them unless you're on a really cliffy map. P already need more probes and lose an engagement on equal supply, the extra supply sunk into carriers means you CAN'T mass zealots as you are going to immediately hit the supply cap. It's really not a problem with golies being decent vs ground so much as carriers are really bad vs golies and block up your supply making your ground army really small.
I mean if terran is stuck on 2 bases, or at least only 2 gasses, then yeah the gas cost of the golies will likely cripple them before max supply is going to cripple you, but lets face it how may tvps are still played with terrans on 2 gas?
On October 12 2011 04:56 nV[MB] wrote:The terran gets to dictate the pace of the If terran decides to not move out I will simply take whatever base is left on map, get 50 gates and 10 stargate carrier switch before first shot fired.
Well yeah, thats my point, if they push you don't get to do that, if they don't you do, it's not like you can take bases if they push, or attack them if they don't push, thus they are dictating the pace of the game.
Taking bases if they don't move out was my suggestion to :D
I learned that carrier switching was a thing to do if you're ahead, and if you're behind or equal, then arbiters are the better choice. They just seem more solid overall.
I found the easiest way to stop vulture harrass and mass spidermining on the map was containing the terran with dragoons/obs. After they try to push you away with tanks you move your contain backwards but still hold the contain. Eventually you will have to engage or run but atleast the map wont be plastered with spidermines
On October 12 2011 14:15 DTK-m2 wrote: I learned that carrier switching was a thing to do if you're ahead, and if you're behind or equal, then arbiters are the better choice. They just seem more solid overall.
really situational getting 12 carriers is pretty much gg there are a lot of games where protoss comes back because of the sheer amount of carriers
However, here is my advice concerning turteling terrans. Ignore it. Go take the rest of the map.
I personally enjoy playing vs. turteling terrans the most (be aware, I'm only C-). That's probably becuase it suits my style, which is very macro based. To me the best thing a terran can do is turtle up.
Here is whats important in my opinion. First of, control the map. He is turteling, so get two control groups of goons with an obs (for each control group) and patrol the map. Stop vulture harass. Deny scouting. Make sure, that you know he doesnt have more expansions than you think. (I'm assuming Terran is turteling 2-3 base.) After two control groups of goons, go pure zealot.
Secondly, make sure you get some kind of feel when he'll move out. I.e. if he just took his third, he won't. If you scout very vew facs he won't. If he techs to science vessels or goes massive upgrade, he'll probably wants to wait until that is done. There are many indicators, so scout well.
Last, u need to take action. Go throw down a couple more expos (Bringing you up to 5+), while teching to arbiters. Once the expos arrived, mass gateways. Now this can't be stressed enough. MASS gateways (seriously you prob. want 20+ of those). Don't neglect updates.
Once he moves out you have two options. Attack his push every time he tries to move out. This is preferable in my opinion. However, if he is as strong, or stronger than you, chances are, he will have an army to deal with yours.
Stasis is pretty good, but if you don't feel comfortable, just wait until he moved out a little and recall him. What happens then is terrans choice, however, if he doesn't outclass you, you will have a solid chance.
It is very possible to mass dragoons with 3 gateway after expo and then make 2 stargate really fast + citadel and start zealot production to save gas for the carriers. This way u dont leave a timing "weakness" gap for terran to push you. once u get 4 carriers u start harassing him and force him make goliaths + u can expand more. u dont even need to make more than 4 or 6. in fights u can snipe key tanks with the carriers to make your ground army prevail, even if that means losing them all to goliaths. just watch the rest of your ground army tear them apart.